Amanda Webb:

That moment I was sitting at my computer exhausted, but on that high that you get from being a workaholic, that I realized actually this can't go on forever. I need to have a life outside digital marketing. And once I knew how to do it myself, I just couldn't wait to tell other people how they could do it.

Chris Do:

So Amanda, for people who don't know who you are, can you please introduce yourself, and tell us a little bit about what you do and we'll go from there?

Amanda Webb:

I am a digital marketing ROI consultant, trainer, mentor. Which basically means that I work with small businesses to help them get more return on the time, the energy, the cash that they're spending online. So more profit essentially. And I do that because I know that I'm a small business owner and a lot of the time we spend a lot of time doing stuff and wondering is stuff happening? I know that's a real pain for people. It can get in the way of your life, it can get in the way of you sleep and your time off. So my job is to enable you to get more time off and still make the same money or even more money than you were before.

Chris Do:

Now for people who are like wondering, wait, why is Chris speaking to Amanda right now? What is this all about? Well, let's go into the backstory. I believe, and if my memory, it's a little fuzzy here already because it was intense for me, I think I first bumped into you at the pre-pre-pre-party. Is that right?

Amanda Webb:

That's right, yeah.

Chris Do:

Okay, right. So we're just chatting and then you're telling me you're really into analytics and data, and then my ears just perked up like, wait a minute. I think our community, especially if they want to talk about marketing and measuring your results and being able to have data to inform the decisions, creative or otherwise, we need to have you on the show and have you share your expertise with people. So for someone who's not into this world of data and analytics and all that stuff, explain it to me in a way that a fifth grader would understand what is it that you do?

Amanda Webb:

I totally get it, firstly. And I also know that people have that fear of data. They have that fear when they go into analytics, it just looks overwhelming. So that's really my job is to simplify that for you. So instead of you going in and just wondering what to look at, or going down some rabbit hole, I can help you look at the right things, know exactly what to look at. I can create a report for you that shows you, for example, if you have a number of lead magnets on your website, if you're a service-based business, which one of those is actually delivering good quality leads for you?

Or maybe if you're a product business, are people flowing through your website in a good way? Are they able to find the products that they want? Are they buying things? Which ones are they buying, and where can you optimize your website to get more results? I prefer working with service-based businesses, which is a little bit more difficult to measure. Maybe it's just that I like the challenge, but I prefer that. On the other hand, if you're a product-based business and you have an e-commerce store, everything is in front of you in Google Analytics, so it's a little bit easier for you to measure. And maybe that's why I like the challenge of service-based businesses more.

Chris Do:

You said you prefer working with service-based businesses, but it's a little bit harder to measure as opposed to say like an e-comm site where you can see quite literally abandoned cart rate, how much money you've made, and the data's pretty straightforward. For a whole community of people who are listening to this who are on the creative space, I think this is going to be of particular interest to them. So what analytics do we look at? Take us through your process and make this, I guess, a little bit less intimidating for people who are like, oh, the numbers are killing me.

Amanda Webb:

Yeah. And as I said, I totally get it. I know that businesses struggle with the data. But if you're a service-based business, the reason it's harder is because a lot of the stuff that you do actually happens offline. So you've got a certain part of your process until they ask for a quote or they get in touch with you, and then maybe you start with the phone calls and the stuff after that. Don't abandon that if you're measuring that. The things that people do is when they get into analytics, they forget to ask people on the phone where they heard about them from, or all the traditional questions that we ask or we know where people came from. So that's important.

But if you are a service-based business, first of all, you need to make sure that everything is set up for conversions. And that's the first thing that your website can tell you. People are just visiting the homepage, and leaving straight away. Then that means that people don't know what to do next. So that's the first thing that you want to look at. You want to look at the pages that people are arriving on on your website. And there's a report for that built in to Google Analytics 4 where it's called pages and screens. You'll find it in the engagement menu, and that will tell you exactly where people are coming into your website, which pages they're looking at.

You can also then, if you look at landing pages, the first page they come to, you can see if they end up converting into customers or converting into, as I said, for service businesses it's more likely to be a lead magnet, or people filling in your quotation form, or people filling in your contact form. If they're not doing any of those things, you really need to look at your website and how people can move through it.

And this is the biggest thing, I think, for businesses. Because when I find out that nothing is happening, that they've just got this website, when I look at the website, you'll just see that either the homepage doesn't tell people what they do or who they're for and it's not clear what you sell, or it's an ugly looking page and people arrive there and they think you're not professional and they leave. So the first thing is to look and see are people actually navigating their way through your website? There's a lot of different reports within Google Analytics that you can use to find that information, and they also have a thing called explorations. So part of what I do for people is I either set those up, if they don't want to do it themselves, or I show them how to set them up and we walk through it together.

Chris Do:

Okay, wonderful. You said a lot of things. I want to circle back to a few of them. All right everybody, let's just assume everybody here is a pretty decent designer. They do identity design, maybe they do some kind of marketing services, stuff like that. So let's just take the whole, your site is ugly, and Amanda's being very kind. She's like, maybe yours is terrible. And if it's so unprofessional looking, people are just going to leave, and that's giving you false data because the design is so bad, or the messaging or the copywriting is so unclear, it's a convoluted interface you've designed.

Let's take all that off the table. Assume you have a beautiful page. Navigation is clear, copywriting's on point. You're not going to win any awards, but at least it's clear. So I have a homepage, and I want to improve conversions and Google Analytics pages and screens is telling me it's one of the highest visited pages. For most people, it's their homepage. Because by default, that's what people type in. So what do I need to do to increase my conversion rate as a service-based business? What do I need to do?

Amanda Webb:

There are so many different things depending on what people are looking at. And the first thing I really want to mention, because I know it's a thing that a lot of web developers are steering people away from, is the about page. People often don't think enough about their about page. And it's usually the top five pages that are visited on your website. And particularly for a service-based business, particularly if they're going to invest a lot of money in you, people really want to know about you. So that's ultimately important. You need to make sure that that is laid out properly. It talks well about you, it's got pictures of you. A lot of us like to hide behind our brands, and I'm sure that's the same for your audience. I know it was the same for me when I started my business, but people really want to get to know you. So that's important.

Something else that's really important is people don't really think about, they may have a number of services, five or six services, and they'll have one service page that just lists them all. Just a list of services, maybe a few sentences about each. And I know this is a mistake I used to make as well. So I've made all the mistakes myself. You really need to have an individual page for each individual service that you offer. And that works because people can really read through what your offering is. Maybe you want to put a video on that page to tell people more about it. You can put your testimonials for each service on the page, and they can really make a good judgment based on that. So that's really important. I see so many businesses not doing that.

You also want to make sure from a measurement point of view and from a funnel point of view that you have a thank you page for, not just for each service, but if somebody fill in the contact form, if somebody fills in a quotation form, if somebody signs up for your lead magnet. Which a lot of people just go, well, now I've got them on my email list. Why do I need a thank you page? But it's good for both from a measurement point of view, so that we can see that people have arrived there, but also because it can help build that brand again. Your personal brand. You can put a video on there or a photo of yourself. You can tell people what's going to happen next so that you're managing their expectations. Or you can upsell. If it's a low cost product that you're offering, that thank you page gives you the opportunity to bring them into another thing that you do, and on and on and on.

So that's the three biggest mistakes. Usually when I start working with a client, we have to put those three things in place when we start because so many people don't do it. So if you haven't got it now, don't feel bad about that because most of the businesses I work with have missed at least one of those.

Chris Do:

We're not here to SEO shame anyone. It's like we're here to talk about best practices, and we're going for low hanging fruit right now. So you should be able to implement many of the suggestions that Amanda's sharing with you like ASAP. And we're going to probably gradually get deeper and deeper and geekier into this, so we might lose some of you. So if you're drowsy, everybody, go get a cup of coffee, pull over to the side of the road because you're going to need to pay attention to what's going on. I just want to ask you a quick question about do you use tools to do heat mapping before you start implementing changes?

Amanda Webb:

I am currently using Microsoft Clarity, which is actually a free tool which records the sessions that people on your website, and it's just amazing. Just looking at the data alone is just a sea of numbers. But when you actually see someone using your website, it will make you cringe because you see what they do. And you're kind of like, no, don't do that. I haven't fixed that bit yet. And it really does supercharge you into fixing the things that are wrong, and instantly see the things that are wrong. It's very easy to install, it's free. It's for people that are, in Europe like myself, it's GDPR compliant. Microsoft say it's GDPR compliant at least. And it tags into your tag manager, which if you're using Google Tag Manager, it sits in there. So it records all the data from there.

And honestly, it's addictive. I look at it every day for at least I'd say half an hour every day looking back at the sessions. But it's such a valuable tool. And it helps you put your Google Analytics into perspective so you haven't just got the data you've got. And it really does shame you. I don't want to shame anyone. But when you look at people using your own website, you feel shamed straight away.

Chris Do:

Well, it's not trying to shame you, it's just giving you awareness about what is really happening. The difference between expectation and reality might be heartbreaking for many of you. But this data, and we could use the data to feel horrible about ourselves, or we can say we need to fix these things because they're getting distracted by this weird dancing bear, and they're supposed to be clicking on this button. Or we think they're going to read all this juicy copy, and then they just read a little bit and they leave. Could be because people don't want to read or it could be the copy needs a bit of fine tuning to get it to be something that's compelling for people to read.

Now, for people who don't understand heat mapping, it is kind of like the way it sounds, right? So first you have this Big Brother level way of looking at what the individual cursor, where it's moving, and what they're rolling over and what they're actually clicking. And it's recording this for every person who comes on the site. Over time, the areas where the mouse has moved the most, it gets really hot in red, and parts where it does nothing, it's like white. So it goes from red, orange, yellow to probably to green. Is that about right, Amanda?

Amanda Webb:

Yes, yes. It shows you which buttons people click the most, and really how people are viewing your website, which as I said is very surprising a lot of the time.

Chris Do:

So say for example, you want them to look at your portfolio, or book a coaching call, or something like that. And there's these buttons, and for whatever reason, they're getting very few taps. Could be the button's in the wrong place, wrong color. The label on the button isn't clear, or something else with the design of the button isn't clear in itself. So you got to work on that.

Okay, we have some information now, a little Big Brother, we feel somewhat ashamed because it's not performing, and now we know why clearly. Duh, this is how people are confused so we can go in and fix that kind of stuff. Are there any other best practices that you can recommend just off the jump based on things that you need to fix about that landing page that you're on?

Amanda Webb:

I think one of the things that I've learned from my obsessiveness looking at Clarity is that people really look at the testimonials. We always think, oh, well I'll throw up a testimonial on that page. But I've found that people really slow down and they can spend a lot of time on your page looking at your testimonials. So social proof is huge. That's the biggest learning point I think I've had from it. I did have them there already, but I didn't see how valuable they were. So now I'm going to go and add a whole load more to my website. So that's one thing.

Talking about the button as well. Another thing, and I'm thinking particularly for designers, we like everything to look slick and beautiful. So another mistake I see a lot of websites make is they want people to click this button, but it's all fitting in the brand colors. It just blends into the website looking beautiful. And one of the things that you can do to see if you've got cold click on that button is to turn it into a contrasting almost ugly color. Not ugly ugly, but I use green on my website, which is only used on my call to action buttons. So something that just stands out so people's eye is drawn to it immediately. That's really important for getting people to do what you want them to immediately. So maybe you have more than one option on your website, but you have a preference of where you would like them to go, whether it's book a call or a particular service, that's the button that you want to highlight.

Chris Do:

Makes sense. Okay. I've been taught this before many years ago, but I want to make sure I highlight for everyone who might have missed it as you were talking, is you want to select a very distinctive color. You like bright colors. It doesn't matter as long as it's a color people can see. And you want to almost reserve that color specifically to be used as a call to action thing. So whenever they see a bright green or a bright orange or red, it's reserved for that. So if your brand colors are red, you probably don't want to use a red call to action color button, right? Because everything is red everywhere, and they're likely going to miss it.

I think the thing that sometimes we forget when we're deep in the design rabbit hole is we're actually designing this for other people not named us. Other people intuitively have to figure this stuff out. And so when you break some of these rules, you're going to potentially be chipping away at the performance or the metrics that you're looking for. Very clear. You mentioned earlier the three things that people need to work on about page, not putting up their pictures on there, and not letting people know who they are. And why is this important? Because I can see how in a former life I might not have wanted to put my picture and talk about myself. Why is this important? Why do you recommend that this is a mistake that people are making?

Amanda Webb:

I think when I first started my business, and probably when you first started your business, it was less important. We wanted to seem like we were part of a larger organization because that's what was considered trustworthy then. But over the years, I think maybe with social media and other tools coming, and the rise of influencer marketing, people have started to really want to know, particularly again, if you're service-based, the person, the individual that they're going to be dealing with.

So the more of you you can put into it, the more of your personality, one, that lets them know who you are. Secondly, it means when they come back to your site, they'll remember who you are again. There's nothing more distinctive than your face. So when they see you and maybe they see a social media post or a live stream that you've done, they can connect the dots and begin to feel like they know who you are. And that's when they start to trust you and that's when they're going to want to invest in you.

At the moment, I'm looking to do some training. And I'm looked 10 or 20 different sites. And I know the top three people I would like to work with because I've seen them online before. I know their faces, I know what they do. And I'm looking at some of these other websites, and there's no face. They're not even telling me who's going to do the training and that really puts me off. I don't feel like I'm invested in that.

So that's your face, but you also can do that in words. You can enhance your brand personality by thinking about how you want to come across online. So one exercise I often do with my clients is get them to think of somebody famous to them, or somebody they know that exudes what they would like their brand to be, that they think suits their personality. And that makes it a lot easier when you're writing and when you're online to make sure that you are conforming to that personality.

So sometimes it's like my one is a guy called Dave Gorman who it is like a UK comedian who does PowerPoint presentations as part of it. He's very analytical. So that's my guy well, your guy's probably going to be you at this stage. But I think for a lot of people, your guy's going to be someone completely different. So that can really help get that across. And it just has that awareness then amongst people who you are and what you stand for just by the words that you use and how you put yourself across.

Chris Do:

Well, people need to understand this is that there are a lot of shady operations that are out there. Not you, but other people who look and sound just like you. So when we come on our website, we're like, this is very interesting. The work is interesting, the process, all the copywriting. I'm checking off all the boxes, I want to get to know you. And then I go and look at the team or the about pages you described, and there's nothing there. It makes me very suspicious instantly. Because we can create fake profile pictures and create fake bios, but when you yourself don't even have a photograph, or a bio, or tell me anything about you, beyond just getting to like you, I don't even trust you right now. And it's kind of important.

So people who are camera shy, who don't think they look good, whatever, work around with what you have. But put yourself out there so that people can understand who the heck you are, and that there's some information for them to bite down on. Because just remember, there are a lot of shady operations out there. You don't want to be confused as one of them. That makes a lot of sense. I would strongly encourage you to do this. Get a professional headshot taken of you. Keep the background simple.

Amanda Webb:

I'm going to suggest that. Choose a photographer you know's taken good pictures of other people. Because you're never going to like the photos that come out. But you know if they've taken good photos of other people, the photos they take of you will be fine for your website.

Chris Do:

Yes. Now let's just say you're on a shoestring budget. You can't afford to work with someone like Amanda. You can't hire a photographer. What are you going to do? Well, here's the thing. In most conferences that you go to, there's a photographer there. Oftentimes they have a photo booth set up. I'm going to be speaking at Adobe MAX. They have a photographer there just to take your headshots and then you can get them. If you're at Atomicon, they did that as well. So spot the photographer at a conference, and say, "Hey, can you take a picture of me?" And then they're going to tag you and they're give you that image and you can use that. Just make sure you're standing in front of something simple.

Now here's the beautiful part living in today's time. If the background's weird, if somebody crosses in the background, you can use AI to remove them pretty easily now and change the background if you want. So there's really no excuse left for you not to have a really good photo. And you want to have a really high res photo that you can use for other PR and media related things, not just for your about page. All right, I think we have the about page clear. Is there any other tips you want to give us about that about page in terms of what we write about? What is an overshare or something that you should definitely not put on the about page?

Amanda Webb:

I think it's important to share your story about why you got there, but only in the aspect that it's important to your customers. So I kind of did that at the beginning. I gave you a really brief overview that this is I'm here because I made all these mistakes. I have a more in-depth story. And I think that's important because people will look at that to see how you're qualified, but only as much as it's going to be of use to what you're selling and what your customers need.

So very often people can get carried away with adding the personal touch, and maybe share a little bit too much about their divorce, or their messy life, and stuff like that. Stuff that in the future is going to come back and bite you, or in the future that you won't be comfortable that a stranger has seen. So I think it's quite easy to jump into sharing way too much. So in general, you want to keep it about your business. You can say things like I always say that I love cats. It's part of what I do. I've got three cats. I jokingly try and put cats into my slides when I'm doing a presentation. It's kind of a thing that my audience know about.

But I'm not going to get into any deeper things about my life because I don't know those people. I think social media often makes us feel a little bit more comfortable about sharing these things, and really on a professional basis we shouldn't be. And obviously don't talk about politics, religion, and what's the other one you're never supposed to talk about? I can never remember the third one.

Chris Do:

Sex.

Amanda Webb:

Exactly. Unless those are part of your business, of course, you should just avoid those topics. You don't want to say, I'm this, I support this particular person, or this particular person.

Stewart Schuster:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do:

There's a moment in your life where everything changes, your old life and the life that you live today, or that big pivotal moment when you cross the threshold and you're into something new. And so you've entered the new world. For you, what was that moment in your life? Can you tell that story please?

Amanda Webb:

There have been lots of those, well, at least three of those moments I can think of. But most recently I've been doing digital marketing now for 14 years, or as a business for 14 years. Prior to that, I was doing it from my previous business. And I love it. I love creating content. I love messing around and seeing how things work. I love how do Facebook ads work? How does blogging work? So I've done all these pieces.

But I wasn't being very strategic. Most of that time, I was working all the hours. So I was working 16 or 18 hours a day, just getting to sleep. My relationships weren't great. My long suffering other half would hardly ever see me. And if he did, I was buried in my computer. I was getting six hours sleep a night, which for a lot of people is enough. Not for me. I'll just put it that way. I was working weekends.

So basically my entire life was working. And I loved what I was doing, so I didn't see a problem. Also, you get a little bit of a buzz from doing that. You feel like really energized from doing that a lot of the time. But at some stage I was kind of going, I'm just going to be old before my time and have no friends, so something's really going to need to change.

And that's when I started getting into analytics, which seems stupid because I've been in marketing a long time. I'd been teaching people how to use Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and everything. Why wasn't I really focusing on my sales and my analytics, my ROI. So that's the change I made. At the time I was blogging maybe three times a week. I have an award-winning blog. It wasn't driving any sales. I was live streaming. I was a YouTube channel and I had a podcast. And I was posting on all the social media. And then I had to do all the client work on top of that. It was too much.

So the first thing I did, so I started looking at my blog and seeing if anyone was converting into email subscribers even, or customers. And I found out that actually that number was really low. So I stopped blogging. I stopped blogging because I knew I needed to reconfigure what I was blogging about if I was going to make that happen. I also realized a lot of my social media, I could probably do better if I just focus on one or two channels. So now I focus on LinkedIn, and I have a play around on Facebook a bit. I rarely post on Instagram. And Twitter's just a mess, so I'm not doing much there at the moment.

But really LinkedIn is where I focus and my email list is where I focus. And since I've started doing that, my profile has gone up, loads more people know about me and know about what I do. People are converting from my blog. Even those old blog posts that weren't converting, people are actually converting from now. And I'm getting sales in, I'm getting eight hours sleep a night. I have weekends off. And I just got married to that long suffering other half. So my life has completely changed. And it was just that moment I was sitting at my computer exhausted, but on that high that you get from being a workaholic, that I realized actually this can't go on forever. I need to have a life outside digital marketing. And I think that was the moment. And once I knew how to do it myself, I just couldn't wait to tell other people how they could do it.

Chris Do:

I see. So it's kind of interesting because the moment in which you have some real data and you're looking at the data, the data informs you, maybe all these things that you're doing aren't really adding up to the things that you want. So it's no wonder that this is kind of what you help people with. We use data, and you can misinterpret data, but we should use data to inform the decisions that we're making. So it's not purely intuition, it's not purely you spinning out of control and doing the busy work, but you can have some kind of quantifiable result that you can track over time and you can improve. Or you can just say, I'm not interested in doing this anymore because it's not going anywhere. Fascinating. So I'm surprised, given that long laundry list of things that you're doing, that you even got six hours of sleep in there. So you must still be living an optimized life and very efficient with your workflow. Because like wow, that is a lot.

Amanda Webb:

I think when you love doing something, you are efficient about it because you just want to get onto the next task that you love. I think that's the problem. I talk to people, and I see they're where I was then and their eyes are bright because they're loving it. And I don't want to say to them, you need to stop because they're not at the right place to make that decision right now, but I know something is going to happen that's going to make them want to stop.

Chris Do:

Okay. Now you mentioned something about the service page where you may have more than one service to offer your clients, and it's kind of important for you to slow down and talk about each specific service and give it its due credit and be able to talk about it so that it doesn't feel like it's a cut and paste job here, right? Because it's like what are all these things? If we could, would you recommend to yourself or to your clients not to have so many services to begin with? Does that help us or does that hurt us?

Amanda Webb:

I think it's worth testing. So that's something I'm always doing. I've got too many services right now. And I think I only have six or something, but I have too many. But it's really looking. So one thing I can do is I look at Clarity and I've got what I call a portal page, which has all my services with a link through to each. So I'm looking at the ones that people are clicking on and the ones they're most interested in, as well as the ones that I'm selling. But some of the ones that I'm selling don't need to be on my website because people will get in touch and we'll have a conversation about how I can help them. So not having it on the service page could help.

So there was one particular service I was thinking of getting rid of, but from both my Google Analytics and looking through the way people are navigating my website, actually loads of people are interested in that service. So what I need to do is work on why isn't that converting so well? What is it when they get to that sales page that I'm not telling them, that isn't encouraging them to take the next step and book it? So that's one of the things. I think we can always be honing that. And that doesn't mean when someone gets on a call with you and they say, "Oh, I want this," and you go, "Damn, I got rid of that service." That doesn't mean you can't offer it to them. But maybe giving them too much choice on your website is meaning that they're not booking anything at all. And I think that's one of the problems I'm currently working on.

Chris Do:

Yes, I think that's the paradox of choice that you're talking about. The more options you give somebody, the harder it is for them to make a decision. And anything that increases the tension in the buying process, slows the process down, and ultimately can drive potential customers away. But you answer that question in exactly the way that an analytics mentor digital marketer should answer, which is, well, Chris, that depends on what the data tells us. For some, it might mean that it's a good thing, and for many, it might mean that that's not a good thing, but let's look at the data and let it inform the decisions that we make.

All right. I want to do a little pivot here. We spent a bit of time talking about websites and what you can do, some basic things that if you do this, you'll probably increase the conversion or you build your email list, or just eliminate things that aren't really producing anything for you. And what I want to do is move into the whole digital marketing and ROI stuff. Let's move away from websites. Let's talk about what is digital marketing, and how do we measure the efforts there? And how can we use that data to make more money, to get more clients, or at least not to waste money on things that don't result in anything?

Amanda Webb:

So I suppose digital marketing is all the things that you can do to market your business using the internet or using online tools. So that is stuff like your social media, your email list, your website, WhatsApp, even if you're using a text messaging service, that could be included in your digital marketing. It's really all the parts of marketing that you do that involve technology. That's where it's from.

And again, something that I would do with clients is we work through a process like a funnel. Kind of your traditional marketing funnel. We're looking at building your audience, then we are looking at engaging your audience, then we're looking at converting your audience. And looking at the metrics on each of the platforms that they should be looking at for each of those.

So one of the things that really frustrates me is loads of people go, "Oh, you shouldn't measure followers. Followers are a vanity metric." When in fact, everything is a vanity metric if it's not there for a purpose. But unless you have an audience and a constantly growing audience, you don't have anyone to sell to. And that's a fact. Whether they're following you or whether that you are just reaching those, all those metrics are important as long as it's the right people. So follower numbers are irrelevant if you are buying a whole load of followers. Or they're irrelevant if you attracted a whole load of followers that are interested in cats, and in fact you're doing digital marketing. Which again, mistakes either I've made myself or other people have made. Now you can be interested in cats and digital marketing, that's fine, you should be on my page. But if it's just cats, you're in the wrong place altogether.

So that's the first thing is looking at that, and constantly, again, this helps when you just really focus on your one or two channels. So I'm looking at growing my LinkedIn, I'm looking at growing my email list. They're the two that are important to me. But I'm not on a major I want to triple my list. I'm looking at growing incrementally, and just getting the right people using the right tactics. So that's the first thing. And all your social metrics will show you that, and your Google Analytics will show you that. All the tools we've got will show you your audience. So that's your first thing.

The second thing, the next phase that you want to come into, is you want to make sure those people know what you do, and that's really based on your content. So one thing that we can totally get carried away with, one of the things that the social networks have us hooked on is our algorithms. And you can chase those algorithms. You can do all the things that they want. Don't post links, and make sure you post videos, or tomorrow it might be don't post videos. Whatever they decide it's going to be. So I'm not a fan of... I think it's good to be aware, but I think you really need to think more about the content that you're putting out.

So you want to have content that is maybe hand raiser content. That means that when somebody reacts to it, maybe they vote in a poll or answer a question. You know then that they're fitting into your audience, into your ideal customer audience. So that's really good content to have. Content that will attract the right people as well. So that's the sort of content that will go viral amongst your people. So it's not reaching millions of people, but if three or four people share it that you know influence your audience, that's a really great piece of content.

And if it's about the right thing, if it's about the pain points, not even to do with your product, but maybe the pain points of digital marketing for me, or the pain points of cat ownership, or the pain points of defining your brand if you're a designer, that's the sort of thing that can really attract people and make them want to follow you. So that's kind of good content to have as well. And then you're building an audience and you can also see how that content performs.

So for performance, things like engagement rate, the number of people who will like or comment or share your post compared to the number of people that will see it is really powerful. Because you may not be reaching millions of people because the algorithm isn't showing it to millions of people, but if a lot of the people who see it are actually reacting to it, that's a good sign that you're on the right path to getting the right people.

And then you've got, just compressing my whole system into a small thing, you've got your sales content. Which people always think is just like a sales post saying, "This is what I do. Buy my thing. I'm really good." Thinking about those old used car salesman ads. I mean, obviously you have to have posts that say what you do, but things like customer testimonials and case studies, talking about answering your customer's questions. So anything that you think your customers will say to you on the phone, if they ring you up or people email you about. Or just trying to anticipate the questions they may have and answering those in your content can really help them make the decision to buy from you as well. So that's really the kind of three sections of content. Like I said, I could probably talk for an hour, but I know we don't have that long.

Chris Do:

Okay. I have something to ask you. You mentioned earlier that you're focused on growing your audience on LinkedIn and also on Facebook, a little bit on Instagram, and then you said Twitter was a disaster. Okay, I'll take you at face value. Let's focus on LinkedIn because a lot of what you and I are talking about these days is everybody that's interested in running a business, your LinkedIn presence should take top priority, I think. It's a business oriented audience. There's very little competition for content because less than 1% of the people who use LinkedIn actually create any kind of content. And the algorithm's super generous. If you have something that's remotely interesting to your audience or community, they'll pump it. I mean just how it works. So how are you using analytics to improve the kinds of content that you make to inform what it is that you should do? Or are you?

Amanda Webb:

I'm looking at LinkedIn Analytics and I'm looking at my Google Analytics. And my main goal for everything really is to get people signed up to my email list. And then tracking that through to see, once they're there, are they active on my email list, and do they buy something? So I have a low cost product that I try and sell to my email list. If they buy from that, that's great.

And when I started focusing on LinkedIn, that was quite low. I wasn't getting a lot coming through that. But over time it's growing and growing until it's become the biggest social platform for me. But also on LinkedIn, you've got direct messaging. And that really is where the magic comes from. And that was one of the reasons I decided to use LinkedIn as a primary channel because when I wasn't using it at all, I was getting direct messages with business. So I knew that if I used it more, I'd get even more of that. So that's something else I would measure. How many direct messages? Relevant, not people trying to connect with me and sell me something immediately. That's one of the things I measure.

And also them knowing that direct messages are powerful. If somebody connects with me, I'll send them a direct message. And not just like a random, hey, nice to connect with you message. I'll try and start a conversation. Knowing that that's a way to build the relationship with people. So that's my two main things. Am I getting direct messages? Am I getting people to sign up to my lead magnets from LinkedIn? So that's the two main focuses.

And something else that's great about LinkedIn, it's great for establishing your niche, what you're about. So when I made my big switch over to doing ROI and analytics for people, I started talking about analytics nonstop. Not just Google Analytics, just measurement in general, and comparing it and telling little stories around that. And quite quickly then I was able to establish, oh, we all followed Amanda before, but look at what she's doing now. This is really interesting. I can see why she's here. I have to get in touch with her. So knowing what I wanted to measure helped me know I need to do more with my direct messaging. I need to try and drive more people over to my lead magnets on my website. But I use that lead magnet for everything that I've done on social.

Chris Do:

Do you use a specific URL so that you can track which posts are driving it? Or are you using just a larger data set, which are my email signups going up or down, or how do you know that?

Amanda Webb:

So both of those, I use UTM tracking, which is basically, it's a little bit of extra words just that you put on the end of a link that makes it unique for whichever platform you post it to. So if you Google URL builder, you'll find how to create one of those. So I have a standard one for LinkedIn, and then I also use Agorapulse, which is a social media scheduling tool. And they actually have it built in that when I share a post, it creates a unique UTM tracking link for each individual post that I put out there. And that means in Google Analytics, I can track it back to that individual post that drove those sales. So that's for those lead magnet signups. So that's really powerful. That's a really powerful way of doing it.

If you don't want to use, like Agorapulse costs a bit of money, so if you haven't got that, just building your own. And just saying that it's from your LinkedIn profile is a really good way of being able to tell what's happening on your site as well. And then, yes, I look at that, I tag people in ConvertKit that they've come from LinkedIn so that I can follow them. So it's a long sales process. People don't just sign up to my lead magnet and buy something from me. Usually, it can take years, sometimes it takes a couple of weeks. Sometimes they might buy my low cost product immediately, but it's probably going to be a few months at least until they spend a decent amount of money with me. So I want to know that that's where they came from originally as well.

Chris Do:

Okay. So are you tracking these things via database spreadsheet, or are you just kind of looking at it more anecdotally? Okay, I get it, this thing is working. It's getting 17 click-throughs or email signups where this one's getting four. And then are you then using that data to change the kind of content that you make? Or you said the lead magnet is always the same. So what have you learned by looking at the data and what actions have you taken?

Amanda Webb:

So I have a spreadsheet. I will look at my analytics daily. But I take specific metrics once a month. I have a day booked out on my calendar. It doesn't take me the day to do it, but it reminds me it needs to be done that day, where I take a lot of stats. And some of those are from analytics, some of them are things that analytics doesn't measure the number of times people have tagged me in a post about ROI or analytics. That's something. Or when I'm onto a client, one of the things that I do that I can't track usually is I do a live show every week. And it doesn't reach that many people. I don't get that many viewers. But every single client that spends big money with me will always say that they watch that show. So that's one of the things I track that analytics doesn't tell me.

But then there are all the analytics stats that I track. But I don't want to track too much because that would take me all day. So that I have specific metrics that I've got there. And that's those, it's things like how much I'm making per sale as well. So that helps me. And how much money I'm making compared to what I made last year. So obviously I have sales goals as well. So all of that goes into my analytics day. So that's the first thing. I've forgotten the second half of your question now.

Chris Do:

I don't remember it either. Okay. Actually I do. The question I asked you was about how you're using the data inform what it is that you are doing, what you want to put more energy into. One of the highlights that you mentioned, and you talked about this earlier, now we're just getting more detail about it, which is you could have a pretty small reach, but if the reach is exactly who you want to market to, who is your ideal dream client, then it doesn't really matter what those numbers are.

And you've said that all your new clients come from you doing this live thing. Not super gigantic audience attendance, but it's the right kinds of people. And that's worth more than 10,000 non-customers, right? We understand that. So the question I have for you is, having looked at your data and studied it for some time, what kind of insights do you have from the kinds of content that could be broadly applicable to other people? What kind of things have you learned?

Amanda Webb:

Well, I think the first thing I learned was when I stopped blogging. That was the first thing. It was all this wrong content. So that was the first thing. So my goal is always to get people to sign up for a lead magnet, but not always the same one. So that's something I've tested over and over again. So where I mentioned that my blog wasn't converting in the past, but now it does convert. And part of that was getting the right lead magnet out at the right time to make sure that the right people were filling it in. So for me, that has been in this run-up to the switch over to Google Analytics 4, which has just happened, I have a phrase book. Because the language in Google Analytics 4 is different to the language in Universal Analytics. So I created a phrase book so people could understand it. And that has converted from the blog and from some of those old blog posts that wouldn't convert. So that's been really good.

Whereas the previous one I had, which was like a do it yourself digital marketing audit sheet, never converted from the blog. I got a few signups, but not many from the blog. So that told me, that's helped me hone that first lead magnet. Again, I would call that a hand raiser. It's something that tells me that those people are the right people. So that's one of the things I've been able to nail is kind of getting that right. And I think now that I've done that once, it used to take me forever to create a lead magnet. I'm like, I can't take weeks to create a lead magnet anymore. I have to kind of bang them out so that I've got a whole selection I can test in the future. So that's been one insight that I've learned from that.

Something else I've learned from the data, again, is I think once you start measuring something, you can become obsessed by it. So where I used to be obsessed by creating all this, what I thought was wonderful content, I'm not sure it was anymore. But I used to obsess about creating all that. Now I obsess about how I'm going to get the sales, and without being a sleazy, secondhand car salesman. Now I get obsessed about, well, how is this thing that I'm doing going to hone into those sales?

So recently I was kind of in a bid to grow my email list. I ran an online event called Analytics Day for the switch over to Google Analytics 4 because that's only happening once, so I thought I'd take advantage of that. And I had specific goals I could set for that. And actually that, weirdly, I managed to hit all my goals. So I obviously didn't set them high enough. But knowing that now that I've got this audience that is interested in what I do, I was able to go, so they're going to be interested in doing this day. Which my most important thing about that day was getting me on camera because from that digital coffee show, my live show, I know when people see me on camera, they're more likely to buy from me. So that was the whole kind of thought process. Of course, all the other speakers I had were amazing, but that wouldn't have been any good to me unless I was able to introduce them. So that was my thought process behind that. So that's just a couple of the things I've done recently.

Chris Do:

Wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. Somebody's listening to this, and they might like, oh my God, my head's going to explode. There's just so much going on that Amanda's telling me about that I need to do. And they're getting that overwhelmed feeling. Do you offer any kind of program coaching service that they can then inquire about? And tell us about that and how they can get in touch with you?

Amanda Webb:

Yes. So I've actually created a page for you on my website.

Chris Do:

Oh, really?

Amanda Webb:

Which I will make sure that everything we've talked about is in today. So I'll tell you about that first, which is at spiderworking.com/chrisdoisawesome, all one word. So if you go there, you'll find links to that GA 4 phrase book and my mini GA 4 course. If you want to work with me, it depends whether you want to learn about Google Analytics only, or whether you want to look at the whole holistic view of your digital marketing.

So I have a group program called Analytics Ace, which I've got one coming up in September, starts in September. Which is basically taking you through the whole process of that spreadsheet pretty much. What you need to measure, how you measure it, and how that's going to inform and optimize your marketing in the future. Or I do one-to-one Google Analytics 4 training, which I'm doing an awful lot of at the moment to help you get that all set up so that you don't need to go and look down a rabbit hole looking at all the data. We can set up the reports that you need to look at, and you'll know exactly where to go each time. So that's my two ways I'm working with people at the moment.

Chris Do:

How much is these two programs that you're talking about, the one-on-one training, and also this Analytics Ace, this group?

Amanda Webb:

Analytics Ace, which is the six week program, group program, is 795 in euros. It's pretty close in dollars at the moment. We're almost on parity. So it's not a million miles away from that at the moment. And the one-to-one training is 995 in euros. So again, it would be very similar in dollars. Pretty close to that.

Chris Do:

Okay. The 995 euro, is that per hour? Is that what we're talking about?

Amanda Webb:

No, that's you get three one hour sessions for that, plus a kickoff call. And those sessions are recorded and you get notes from that as well, so that you don't get lost afterwards.

Chris Do:

So depending on when this airs, the dollar to the euro's trading fairly closely. It's about one to 1.12. So 795 euro is about $890 US. It's not a gigantic difference between those two. So it's about a $100 difference. Not even. It's real close.

Amanda Webb:

It's real close, yeah.

Chris Do:

It's actually real close to that number. Okay.

Amanda Webb:

If you email me, I can quote you in dollars. So if you just drop me an email, I'll quote you the dollar price. And it's been pretty parity for the last year or so. So it's not going to go up too much or down too much. Not unless some major disaster happens. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Chris Do:

Okay, let's hit that one more time so people are very clear. What's the URL that they need to visit to be able to get the resources and to find out more information about you? Let's give them that again.

Amanda Webb:

It's spiderworking, so just think of the scary spider doing a job, .com/chrisdoisawesome. All one word.

Chris Do:

That's where you need to go. So it's spiderworking.com/chrisdoisawesome.

Amanda Webb:

Yeah. I love I just made you say that.

Chris Do:

All right. That's perfect. Okay, Amanda, it was an enlightening conversation with you. I'm so glad that we got to connect after at Atomicon. Where will you be next in the world so in case I'm there, I'll be looking out for you?

Amanda Webb:

You're probably going to have to come to Ireland, I'm afraid. I mean, it is the best country in the world. So that's all I have to say. Come to Dublin, hit me up.

Chris Do:

I would love to come back-

Amanda Webb:

We'll go out for a pint.

Chris Do:

I'm going to come back to Dublin for sure. For sure. So I'll come to you. That's easier for me.

Amanda Webb:

That's it. Yeah. Or I'll come to LA.

Chris Do:

Not right now because it's too hot, but later when it gets a little bit cooler. Amanda, thank you very much for sharing your information today, and also with the additional resources. And I encourage everybody here who's listening to this, if you want to have more data to inform the decisions that you're making, the efforts that you're putting into it, I strongly encourage you to do this. So much of what we do is based out of instinct and emotion, and sometimes that can steer us in the wrong direction. Thank you very much for coming on the show, Amanda.

Amanda Webb:

Thanks for having me. I'm Amanda Webb, and you are listening to The Futur.

Stewart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do, and produced by me, Stewart Schuster. Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode, and thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better.

Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission, and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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