Daniel Priestley:

People buy when the conditions are right. You need three ingredients that normally don't go together. The three ingredients is logic, emotion, and urgency. The logic of buying a Rolex is that it holds its resale value or it even goes up in value. The emotion is it's a premium luxury watch that makes me look like an important person. Then the urgency is that I've been on a waiting list for 18 months. I've only got a short window of time to buy this. They've found a logic trigger, an emotion trigger, and an urgency trigger. Then the conditions are right and people buy.

Chris Do:

Welcome back to The Futur Podcast. My guest is no strange to this channel. You've seen him on YouTube, you've listened to his podcast. We've been very fortunate to bring him back. It's Daniel Priestley. Here's the weird thing. Since the last time we've had this episode, Daniel and I have been globetrotting and running into each other in lots of different places. Now that's going to make sense in a little bit, but as I'm reading his book, Oversubscribed, which is what we're going to be talking about today, it clicks. It totally clicks. I'm just going to testify right now. One of the ideas that Daniel talks about in Oversubscribed is this idea of 7-11, and I believe 4.

Daniel Priestley:

Yeah, 7-11-4.

Chris Do:

It takes about seven hours of being around someone where you start to move away from strangers into friends, according to a study that Daniel cites. Then according to a different study by Google, he says it takes about 11 points of interaction or touchpoints for someone to potentially buy from you. That's pretty significant in itself. He shared this last time when we were discussing Key Person of Influence, but then in oversubscribed, he adds another variable, the four where we feel like if we see someone in four different places, there's something that happens. That's why I bring up at the beginning of this conversation, I've seen Daniel now first on Zoom as we're talking, maybe I've seen you as I read the book. Okay, I didn't really see you, but I got a sense of who you are. Then I met up with you in the UK, in London.

Daniel Priestley:

In London. Yeah.

Chris Do:

Then we went to Amsterdam.

Daniel Priestley:

Amsterdam. Yeah.

Chris Do:

Then we went to Dubai. Then I saw you in Newcastle. I'm like, "God, I think Daniel's stocking me or something."

Daniel Priestley:

We have 7-11-4 to each other.

Chris Do:

We have. Here's the thing I want to point out, and then we're going to turn over the show over to Daniel, which is now when I see Daniel, he's not the guy who wrote the book. He's not the guy with curly, crazy, wavy hair that is just I want to run my fingers through. He's the guy, when I see him, my face lights up like, "Yo, Daniel priestly, what is up?" I feel like even though we haven't spent a gazillion hours together, I feel like I know you, I like you, I trust you. We're not friends and we're not attending each other's bachelor's party or something. But I'm starting to feel-

Daniel Priestley:

We're in a different category. We're in the friend zone.

Chris Do:

Daniel, just to jump in on [inaudible 00:03:13], what is happening to me psychologically, emotionally when I'm spending this much time with this many points of interaction with you?

Daniel Priestley:

Well, this is so interesting if you're a marketer because this really goes back to a few different research studies that triangulate around the same idea. Research study number one is Professor Robin Dunbar, and Robin Dunbar is a professor in why people fall in love, why people bond, why people feel connected. He invented these things which are called Dunbar's numbers, and they are, think of them as friendship circles or associate circles. He basically says, "You've got 5 people who are in the close family circle, 15 people who are in the really, really close friendship circle, and then it goes out to about 50, I think, and then 150, and then 500, and then 1,500." Once you get out to 1,500, you're really in a category of people that you can put a name and a face to, you know one or two things about them.

That includes people like celebrities. You might say, "Oh, yeah, Elton John, I know what songs he sings, and I would recognize his name and his face. So he'd probably be in the top 1,500," especially if you've recently seen him on television or something like that. Our brains essentially only have a certain limited amount of space for remembering names and faces and facts and figures about people. If you want to sell to someone, if you want to be in their circle, you've got to clock up a certain amount of time and interaction. So Professor Robin Dunbar, he basically says, "You got to spend about seven hours with someone before you're in that trusted circle, that trusted sphere." One way to accelerate this in one of the studies was about being in multiple locations, and they did a thing where they took people into four different locations.

I think if I remember correctly, the study was two people sitting down and talking to each other for 20 minutes versus two people who had to move around four different locations. The people who moved in four locations had a heightened sense of bonding. One of the implications, and I have actually tested this, I'm not a professor, but I'm anecdotally going to say that I've tested this. If someone is connected with you on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, they somehow feel a lot more connected than if they're just connected on one platform. Even if you see the same amount of posts, if you see them on multiple locations, it somehow feels more significant. That's Dunbar's numbers. Google did it a different way. Google were a little bit sneaky. They said, "Okay, let's have a look at what people buy, then let's go into their browser history, and let's have a look at what they were looking at in the lead-up to a sale."

If you imagine someone's buying a handbag and basically, they've boarded on this day, when you go and look through the history, they've had 10.7 interactions with handbag-related information. It seems significant to Google that you can't just simply say, "Oh, I want this thing. I'm going to just go and buy it." You have to stalk it like an animal, and you got to creep up on it, and you got to sniff it, and you got to get close to it. By the time you've had 10.7 interactions in the lead-up, then you're ready to pounce on it. Essentially, that's how we buy stuff. When you know this, you can sell more stuff because you can help people to go through their 7-11-4 journey, their 7 hours, 11 interactions, 4 locations.

Chris Do:

That's why some of my fans already pounce on me. You've explained the whole phenomenon, Daniel. When I see them like "Chris, come here." I'm like, "Am I being stalked like an animal right now?"

Daniel Priestley:

You've 7-11-4-ed them. It's weird, right? Because you see them in the hotel foyer, and you go, "I don't know that person." But they see you and they go, "Oh, I've spent hours with this guy," in their brain. Because brains don't know it's digital. We just don't know the difference between digital and analog. We just go, "Oh, yeah, it's all the same." The same reason we get upset when somebody passes away who's famous, and we never met them, but we feel like we know them. Brains aren't really evolved to know the difference between digital and real life. Yeah, it's true. You've 7-11-4-ed millions of people.

Chris Do:

There's neuroscience that supports what Daniel's saying. It's not just one man's opinion because I've interviewed other experts who talked about that your brain can't tell the difference between a dream and real life. If you rehearse a golf swing, for example, in your dream, and a lot of coaches help their clients do this to visualize and continue to do the swing over and over again, their actual golf score increases or decreases depending on how you look at it. They improve. So you're saying also as we're watching a piece of content, our brains can't tell like that's a two-dimensional image right now, for the sake of the conversation, versus you and me actually sitting in a cafe talking, I'm connecting with you, it's a different experience, but the way we record it feels familiar to us.

Daniel Priestley:

Yeah. I mean, do you remember what we felt like when Prince died? You heard that Prince had passed away. It's like, "Oh, what?" It's like you feel this thud on your chest. We've never spent time with Prince, but it feels like a loss.

Chris Do:

Yes, the same thing happened when Steve Jobs passed away. Thousands of people around the world mourned. You never talked to Steve, you didn't even share the same room, but people were doing vigils outside of Apple Stores, which is a strange place to do one. They were emotionally impacted. People cried, and they felt a deep emotional connection. This all sounds great if you want to be a celebrity or a famous person, but there are practical business applications to this. Why don't we just jump into the book, okay? There's a concept that you shared with everybody who reads the book book, which is this, "It doesn't take a gigantic amount of people for you to reach a state of being oversubscribed." Before we get into that, what is Oversubscribed mean, and how is this concept relevant to anybody who is in a marketing space?

Daniel Priestley:

If you're in the marketing space, you've forgotten lesson 101 of microeconomics. The reason I'm saying that I have, right? But here's lesson one of microeconomics, demand and supply sets the price, and demand and supply creates profit. It's an imbalance between demand and supply. Think about an oversubscribed business is a business that has limited or constrained supply, and there are more people who want that supply than is available. Pretty simple, it's a hot day, there's lots of people out in the park. There's one little ice cream van and it's got a limited amount of ice cream. They are not doing discounts on that day because there are plenty of people lining up to buy the ice cream. There's constrained supply and there's excess demand. What we forget in the digital world, and what we forget when we're marketers, and we're creatives is we forget that it's a simple, simple game that demand and supply set the price, and demand and supply set profit.

Let me just give you a little example. If there was a profit god sitting up on the cloud handing out profit fairly, and the profit god says, "I'm going to give profit to the companies that take the most risk, that have the most on the line, that have to get everything right," they probably would give profit to airlines. They would say, "Well, if you're an airline, you've got to be safe, you've got to have amazing customer service, massive capital expenditure, huge risks, innovation, all this sort of stuff." It would be fair that airlines should make 50%, 60%, 70% profit because of all the things that have to go right in order to run an airline. But they don't. They make 5%. If the profit gods were fair, they would say no profit for Rolex watches because Rolex watches haven't really innovated in 50 years, and Rolex watches don't do customer service very well, and Rolex watches a simple device that nobody actually needs anymore.

We should definitely not have profit for Rolex watches. But what happens in reality? What happens is Rolex is massively profitable and airlines are not. Why? Because Rolex constrain supply and has an 18-month waiting list and airlines have plenty of supply and they're fighting to try and get people to take the seats because those planes have to fly every day anyway. Essentially this is the principle and the principle that needs to be applied, if you're a creative, is you need to create an official capacity where that is your official number. You need other people to know that that's the official number, and you need to let other people know that official capacity is in hot demand, that there are plenty of people who want to buy from you, that there's a waiting list and that demand and supply tension is rife.

Chris Do:

Okay. Somebody's going to be listening to this, "Yeah, genius, supply and demand. I get it. You want to have greater demand and supply, but how do we apply this in the real world?" In the book, you write about this and that you produced many events before and that there's one thing that you cited where you were just thinking about doing a workshop in London or wherever, and then you just floated the idea and you said, "Unless we sell this number of tickets, we're not going to do it." How you got people to be in this oversubscribed state? Can you walk us through that so then people can understand how this works?

Daniel Priestley:

In that example, I wanted to run a workshop and we wanted to sell the tickets out. We wanted to sell, I don't know, it was about 100 tickets, I think. If we have had a rang through and tried to sell the tickets over the phone, or if we had have sent out an email and said the tickets are available, buy the tickets, then it probably wouldn't have been able to easily sell those tickets. But here's what we did instead. Instead of just trying to sell the tickets, we first sent out an email through our partners and through our own database, and said, "We're going to be running an event. The tickets are going to be on go on sale next week, and the only way to get those tickets is to join a Facebook group that will be the discussion group in the lead-up to the event, and that's where we're going to drop the tickets."

Now we had told people there was only going to be 100 tickets, and when we emailed all the databases, they all joined the Facebook group and hundreds of people joined the Facebook group. There was something called demand and supply tension created, and it was transparency. This is one of the principles in the book called transparency of demand and supply tension. Basically, transparency is anytime the market can see that you're oversubscribed, they can see that there is a lineup. They can see people want to buy from you. What happened is that people could see that 300, 400, 500 people had joined the group in order to get tickets, but there was only going to be 100 tickets. So when those tickets went on sale, they got snapped up within 20 minutes, and that was leveraging demand and supply tension in with transparency.

Chris Do:

You've explained a concept that we're all familiar with, when there's a queue for a movie, a restaurant, or in my case, sometimes to go into a luxury store like luxury goods, I'm like, "What the heck is happening here?" You're going to make people who have money, who are important wait, you can't have what it is that you want. So it creates that tension that you're talking about and you can literally see with your eyes a line in front or a two-hour queue, or a two-month waiting list, and this is an important concept.

You've introduced the concept for anybody who is like, "Well, how do I create a line for my business?" It's not so easy. You're saying there's a pre-staging area where you can see quite literally how many other people are going to be active customers, so you can see the line, so to speak, in a virtual way in a Facebook group. That way when the tickets actually do go on sale, you can see that there are three times as many people in this room who are interested in buying to every one ticket. Therefore, when you announce, they're going to have to pounce, or they're going to lose their opportunity, which is-

Daniel Priestley:

That's it.

Chris Do:

... incredible. That's the concept.

Daniel Priestley:

That's one of the ways to do it. One of the key ideas that we talk about in the book is the idea of marketing for signals first and then sales. There's a whole chapter called Market for Signals, not Sales. What we're trying to do here is what most businesses do is they go out to try and get the sale. What we're going to do is we're going to just go out to get excess signals. So once we know official capacity, let's say, your official capacity is 30 clients who can pay 60 grand. That's your official capacity. So rather than go out and trying to find 30 clients who can pay 60 grand, we're going to go out and try and get people to signal interest in being one of those 30 clients.

We're going to go signal collecting first. We're going to maybe approach companies and say, "In 2024, the year ahead, we're going to be taking on about 30 clients, and what we're doing is just getting some soft interest in what projects you might be interested in if you're interested at all. At the moment, we're not taking on new clients, or we're not taking on projects, but we're just wanting to make contact with the market and just start organizing our year ahead so that we can deliver the most value to people. Would you be interested in applying, or would you be interested in just filling in a survey, or would you be interested in completing an online scorecard, or would you be interested in attending a mini event that we're going to be running?"

Anything at all that is a signal. Some of the classic signals is to attend a workshop. Attending a workshop means it's a signal of interest. Filling in a survey or a scorecard, joining a WhatsApp group or a Facebook group or a LinkedIn group, joining a virtual waiting list or a waiting list of any sort. These are all signal-collecting campaigns. So first signals then sales. The most incredible example of this was when Elon Musk did Cybertruck, and he basically puts a Cybertruck. There's only one example on the stage, and he says, "We're going to do this in three years from now. We haven't even built a factory, but if you want one, you're going to have to put down $100 deposit." A million people put down $100 deposit. They were then able to go to, I think it was JP Morgan and raise all the money that they needed for the factory and all that stuff. First, they marketed for signals long before they wanted sales.

Chris Do:

In that case, that seems pretty clear to be put on a wait list. Since less and less people I know are using Facebook groups, what is the 2023 version of getting people pulled together in a space and saying, "We're ready to purchase," so that they can see each other? Do you have any modern interpretations on how to do this?

Daniel Priestley:

WhatsApp group work well. Actually, I've seen some WhatsApp groups for some extremely high net-worth individuals like senior senior executives. The other one that it's not necessarily a group, but scorecards. You and I, we've been exploring scorecards and how they work. People can't necessarily see how many other people have filled in a scorecard, but they can get a sense that there is a process and there is also something that's created that I call with or without you energy. When you get to about five times oversubscribed, you end up with this magical special quality called with or without you energy. I mean, I guess it's called chutzpah or you've got this confidence about you. With or without you energy, what I mean by that is that I'm going to be fine with or without you. If I don't need you anymore, I have with or without you energy.

Let's say, for example, you had official capacity of 30 clients and you had 1,500 people who'd filled in a scorecard and signaled that they're interested in working with you, you'd feel 10 foot tall, you'd be bulletproof, you'd be walking down the street, you've got with or without you energy, "I'm going to be fine next year with or without you." Customers can pick up on that. They can smell. Because when they say things like, "Oh, we really need to get this done urgently." You just say, "Hey, look, I might not be your supplier. I've got plenty of people who want to work with us, and we've got a particular way of working, and anyone who doesn't want to work that way, we just recommend them to somebody else." It's like, "Really?" It's like, "Yeah, totally. That's just how we work." You can only genuinely do that if you are genuinely oversubscribed, and you have that with or without you energy.

Chris Do:

I want to ask for your feedback on something that we started almost at the same time, as I was reading the book on the plane ride home, I have a workshop in Miami and we think we're going to sell 50 tickets. It's where we want to hold capacity, but the event page isn't ready because we're in negotiations with the events page company. So I can't even direct people to that. I just ask people on the internet, "If you're interested, comment RSVP." So then they're doing this on Twitter and on LinkedIn. I said, "As soon as the link is available, I will send it to you." Then I read the book, I'm like, "Wait a minute, this is similar concept. I just done LinkedIn." So now you can see RSVP, and you can see who's saying it. It's actually more people than I thought would already be committing to the concept. They haven't put down any money yet, they're just saying-

Daniel Priestley:

No, but they can see each other.

Chris Do:

They can see each other. They can see the activity around this. As I'm reading the book, I'm like, "Wait, I think I'm doing the same thing." Is that right? Am I doing on the right path?

Daniel Priestley:

Yeah. I mean, you and I, I swear we're just cut from the same cloth, the way our minds work. We've had previous conversations, but I mean that's just intuitively perfect. Here's what you could do if you wanted to ramp it. You could say, "I've only got 50 spots, and I'm sticking to my 50 spots, and I want it to be a really super specific workshop. So I'm going to get you to fill in this online survey or scorecard, and once you fill it in based on how you answer, I'm not telling you what the criteria is because I want you to answer honestly, but based on how you answer, I'll either offer you a ticket or I won't. I want you to fill this in, answer the questions honestly, and then you'll find out whether you've been offered a ticket in a week from now." Then it's like a week of tension.

Will I or won't I be able to get one of these tickets? That is also added value because who wouldn't want to be in a room that's been screened, who wouldn't want to be in a room where it's super specific to their needs where they know they're going to get extra value because it's going to be crazy focused on a particular set of problems that I know that I want to solve. That would be another signal collection. Signal collection one would be RSVP in the comments, signal collection two is fill in the scorecard, and then you've been selected, and then boom, the whole thing is full with the right people.

Chris Do:

You mentioned a couple of things. You mentioned the difference between an airline and Rolex watches, I presume you know a couple of things about their business. I'd love to talk about this because we talked about an event. This makes sense. People are like, "Well, I don't do events. I don't know how to apply this." Maybe make a product. Let's try to understand products because I'm fascinated by how luxury brands are able to sell essentially a commodity at super high premium prices at everything they do to trigger those responses in you. Rolex is one of them. When I graduated school in 1995, a couple of years into my business, I was doing well enough and it was always one of my things I want a nice timepiece. So I went to the store and I bought myself a Rolex Submariner. At that time, I can't remember what I paid, I want to say like 3,500 bucks, which for me was a lot of money back then, and I did not buy the one with the date.

I just got the one with time because the one with date cost, believe this or not, $500 more. I'm like, "I don't really need the date, Daniel." I'm going to live to regret that decision. But fast forward, something has happened where now you cannot walk into any store and just say, "I want the Submariner. Here's my money. Take my money." They won't even sell it to you. Tell me what's happening and what do you understand about their business because I've heard different stories, and I want to compare notes with you.

Daniel Priestley:

Well, what's happened is they've decided to play by their own rules. There is no law that says you have to meet the marketplace demand. You can make as much of your product as you want. You can keep supply constrained if you want to. There's no law that says you have to sell something to someone the day that they ask for it. You can put people on a waiting list if you want to. What happened is that Rolex, either by design or accidentally figured out that if they keep supply at a limited capacity of whatever the supply is, and they keep that slightly below the level of demand that they've got, if they always religiously put the price up by 3% every single year, which they do. Also, if they make sure that the resale value of a Rolex stays high, then they realize that essentially this would create tension in the marketplace.

If they could maintain that tension, then they would have a business that's massively oversubscribed and stays oversubscribed. But I'll tell you, here's what Rolex does really, really well. They figure out what works, and they keep doing it even after the fact that they're oversubscribed. Even though there's an 18-month wait list for Rolex, they still take out the back page of all the men's magazines. They still sponsor the Wimbledon tennis, they still sponsor the yachting races, they're still sponsoring certain mountaintop locations in the Alps. They still do all the things that got them to be oversubscribed even though they're oversubscribed. One thing I see that's a mistake is I see businesses get themselves into a position where they have a waiting list, and then they turn off the marketing, they turn off whatever it was that they did that worked, and then they get undersubscribed, and then they have to work really hard to get oversubscribed again.

Then once they're there, they go, "Oh, no, I've got this three-month waiting list. That's terrible. I better..." You can imagine a boat that fires up its engines to get out of the water, and then it starts to aquaplane, and then as soon as it aquaplanes, it turns off the engines, and it sinks back into the water, and it's like keeps doing that. What you want to do is get out and aquaplane and then leave the engines on so that you stay oversubscribed. That's what Rolex have done. They've figured out what works, and they just make sure they keep doing what works.

Chris Do:

I'm jotting down notes and things to circle back on with you, and I'm going to talk about how to keep your prices higher and increase the resale value. I want to talk a little bit about how much energy it takes to get something launched and then to turn off that engine seems crazy, but people do this all the time. But I just want to stay in the Rolex conversation for a little bit, and we'll just compare what we know or what we've heard. I've read articles on this back in the day when Rolex figured out that they're losing luster in this brand, that it seems like everybody has them, and they've oversold, the market is saturated. So they woke up one day somewhere in the late 90s or early 2000 and realized they need to clamp down on supply. So they implemented something that I think is beautiful.

If you ever collected anything that's collectible like Pokemon cards, you understand how this works. They're called chase packs or extra rare cards. You have to buy so many packs and they're guaranteed in one of those packs is a holofoil, rare Pokemon thing that's worth a lot of money, completely artificial, completely made up. So what I've heard from people who are in the know with watches, they said that Rolex makes most of their margins selling watches that have either precious metals or stones in them, but the market doesn't want that. So in order for you to get a Submariner, which is what everybody wants, the reseller has to buy something like eight other precious metal ones in order to get two of the ones that everybody buys. So they're incentivized to sell the ones where they make a ton of money, they already make a ton of money as it is, but these ones with white gold or rose gold are even more expensive and the margins are even higher.

Now they've created this demand for the ones that are common, which is bizarre. Because I believe you can walk in and buy one of the expensive ones. You just can't buy the standard Submariner, which is what I like. What happens is there's a secondary market, and they give a lot of power to the reseller now to choose who their loyal customers are. If you go and you buy two of those expensive ones, they're like, "Do you want one of the other ones?" Of course, you want it because as soon as you can buy it, you can go out in the street unused or even used and sell it for more than what you've paid. This is an important concept to understand, and several businesses who've mastered this have skyrocketed in terms of their revenue.

You mentioned this yourself. When you sell out your tickets, you get this oversubscribed base, you're sold out, you're not going to offer more seats. Well, you write in the book, you literally offer people more money for their tickets than what they paid for. This is mind-blowing to me because we hear about this happening for a rock concert, but a workshop, Daniel Priestley, and you're doing this. Tell me more about that.

Daniel Priestley:

Once we hit a point of oversubscribed, what I want to do is really lock it in. So I end up with a waiting list, and what I love to do is just email everyone who's got a ticket and say, "If you don't intend on showing up for any reason, that's fine. We are going to buy your ticket back for a premium because we've got someone who's willing to pay the higher price." What's funny is that just locks people in, right? People go... Let's say I'm doing something that's only like 100 pounds a ticket, $100 a ticket. You know what it's like. People sometimes turn up, sometimes they don't turn up, sometimes they turn up late, et cetera. If I say, "Hey, we'll buy that ticket back off you for $200, we've got someone else who wants it," then they go, "No, that ticket's mine, and I'm not going to give it up."

Then they turn up and they value it. Now it's not a gimmick. I only do this when I actually have a waiting list of people who would actually happily buy the ticket. But this is one of these... You get superpowers once you're oversubscribed, you end up with these superpowers. There's something that's also happening with Rolex that I want to peer behind the curtain and share in all the thing that you just described. There's a principle that's really important, and the principle is that people buy when the conditions are right. The conditions being right, you need three ingredients that normally don't go together. The three ingredients is logic, emotion, and urgency.

What's actually happening and what you're describing when you went through that whole story about the Rolex, and you can resell it for this amount of money, and you could go out onto the street, and they only give you this amount of time, and you have to buy this one, and then that happens, what's actually doing is they're weaving together logic, emotion, and urgency.

The logic of buying a Rolex is that it holds its resale value or it even goes up in value. That's the logic. The emotion is it's a premium luxury watch that makes me look like an important person, and I get to feel a sense of status and achievement by being associated with a brand. Then the urgency is that I've been on a waiting list for 18 months. I really want that Daytona, but I have to buy three other watches to get to the Daytona, and finally it's arrived. The day is here. I've only got a short window of time to buy this, and then I get it. Essentially, what they've done is they've found a logic trigger, an emotion trigger, and an urgency trigger, and they fire off those three in quick succession, and then the conditions are right and people buy.

What I see entrepreneurs doing or business leaders doing or creatives doing is that they're really only good at one out of the three. They love selling on emotion. They want to build trust and stories and rapport, and they want you to fall in love with their creativity, but they don't make the case for why it's valuable. They don't put the ROI of the value of it. They don't tell it to you like it's a spreadsheet. They don't explain it to the CFO. Then also they don't have any urgency trigger. You can take it or leave it or buy it whenever you like or come back when it suits you. The other thing is I see lots of people selling on logic, but they don't do the emotion or the urgency. Sometimes people sell on urgency, but they don't build the logic and the emotion first. You need all three. The people only buy when the conditions are right and the people stampede when all three of these happen. If you can fire off all three with a group of people, there's a stampede.

Chris Do:

I think one company that's mastered this probably more consistently than anybody else's Apple and Elon Musk too. But Apple consistently like this Apple vision thing that's coming out. Now there's some question marks about it, right? It's not even ready. You can't even buy it. There's nothing to put your name on. They announce it, they show you how it can be used. They capture your imagination. That's all emotions. But then my logic's like, "Well, it's an amazing display and I need it for business because I need to be where people are at and be part of the conversation." The urgency is, I'm pretty sure there's a finite quantity of these things and they're only going to make so many, and I need to be there at the very front. So the urgency is there. All the Apple fanboys, every time they have a new product announcement and update, they don't have to do any PR, they don't have to do any marketing or advertising, they still-

Daniel Priestley:

Behind the scenes, I know someone who was actually at the Apple launch event for the Apple Vision Pro, I think it's called. How's this? Out of the couple of thousand people they invited only a very small number, actually got to put the headset on and actually touch it or feel it or put it on and all that. You had to be absolute top, top, top tech reviewer for the New York Times or 20 million followers on this thing.

You had to be super, super premium. If you were just that one little tear, you were allowed to look at it from a distance, but you weren't allowed to touch it, and you weren't allowed to put it on your head. It's like they're building so much tension even with the people who set the trends. They're incredible. When they do PR, the number one PR story that Apple releases is always that we're not going to be able to satisfy demand. That's their number one PR story. They always run with that. Here in the UK, I can guarantee you a year from now they're going to be saying, "We're going to be sending only 40,000 units to the UK and that's all we can send, and there's only going to be 40,000 of them available." There'll be people camping out for them.

Chris Do:

There will be for sure. They limit the allotment of any retailer or reseller that they could have, and they communicate that down the line until it gets to you or I, like, we better wait the night before if we really want this thing because in the previous launches of their phones, it's been lines out the door for blocks. People camping out quite literally.

Daniel Priestley:

But they know that this is a new product and they know that you are still unsure about how you feel about it. What are they doing? They are 7-11-4-ring. They're going back to what we started the conversation with. They know that if they try and get you to buy it straight away, you're going to have mixed feelings, you're not going to be ready. You have to build a relationship to this product with 7 hours, 11 interactions, 4 locations. Here's what I imagine they're going to do. There will be another series of announcements that come out between now and Christmas. There will be a few Apple headsets that actually go to the stores, but they'll be behind glass, and you'll be able to look at it but not touch it.

They'll actually have that available in certain stores, and you'll be able to just kind of walk past and have a look at it and see it, but not get your hands on it. Then they'll say that you can try it on in-store, but we're not selling them. You can actually have a play for five minutes, but then the next person wants to have a go and we're not selling any of these. You can't have it just yet. They're going to go through this song and dance of 7-11-4-ring and signal collecting, getting you to fall in love with it before they actually put it on sale. That's my prediction.

Stewart Schuster:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do:

I have to ask this question then. How do we build this tension if we're a service provider? If I design and build websites, let's say, how do I use the same principles of oversubscribe? Because we talked about products, we talked about events. Sometimes people have a hard time figuring out that jump in imagination.

Daniel Priestley:

Is it okay if I get quite technical or-

Chris Do:

Please.

Daniel Priestley:

... prescriptive?

Chris Do:

Yeah.

Daniel Priestley:

Here's what you do. You set your official capacity for the year ahead, and you literally say, "All right, what do I want my official capacity to be?" You map it out and you figure it out down to the exact amount of clients and exactly what they're going to pay and all of that stuff. You do the mathematics around your supply, and the way that you do this is that you factor in your holidays, you factor in taking time off to go on dates with your wife or your husband. You really basically say, "If I had a really good year, this is what it would look like." You set your official capacity and you set that in stone, you write it down, and you say, "That is my official capacity."

Now once you have that, here's what you do. You're going to break it up into 40 weeks of the year, and you're going to figure out what is my official capacity divided by 40? For round numbers, let's say, your official capacity was to take on 80 clients, and there's 40 weeks of the year. So you need roughly speaking two clients per week to meet your official capacity if you are working on 40 weeks of the year. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to end up with three campaigns that you're going to run in the year ahead. Campaign number one is called the perfect repeatable week, and the perfect repeatable week, just like it sounds, you are going to repeat a few key activities that collect multiple signals for every unit of capacity. If you've got two units of capacity for the week, you want 10 people to signal interest that week.

So you need a perfect repeatable week that collects those signals. That's going to be your perfect repeatable week. You're just going to do it over and over and over, and I can give you some examples in a minute. The second campaign you're going to schedule is called the spotlight campaign. Spotlight campaign is every quarter you are going to do something big and exciting and you're going to align yourself to a bigger brand. You're going to have a professional speaker come in or do something like that. You're going to do something special, something exciting. It's either going to be product-led, personality-led, it could be experience led, but there's going to be some spotlight campaign that happens every 90 days. Then you are going to do what we call the annual big message. The annual big message is you're going to basically have a big message that spreads far and wide, the buying belief.

The buying belief is if you believe this, then you'll buy this. If you believe that 10,000 steps a day is a good idea, then you will buy a Fitbit to track your steps. If you believe that companies that have a purpose outperform companies that don't, then you will buy a start with why consultant, right? Essentially, you have a big campaign that does the buying belief. You broadcast the buying belief. Now you've got three campaigns, the big message that goes out on social media, the quarterly spotlight event, that is something exciting, and then the boring moneymaking, perfect repeatable week. Those are your three campaigns, and you schedule those out. That is your demand generation engine, and that sits on top of your official capacity. It basically gets you so far oversubscribed that you can't even switch the damn thing off. You literally end up swamped.

Chris Do:

If I design websites and I design and build websites for clients in the FinTech space, what does my perfect repeatable week look like? Because everybody needs to know this part. How do I generate 5X the demand of my capacity?

Daniel Priestley:

I would do this. I would have a perfect repeatable week that is an online assessment, and it would basically be that I would promote an online assessment where someone goes online, fills in an online assessment to see is my digital strategy for my FinTech top tier. It might be an online assessment that says, "Do you have a top-tier digital strategy for your FinTech business? Fill in this online assessment and benchmark yourself against the best practices in the industry." That would be something that you promote pretty actively and you promote it every single week. You run ads to it. You might have an outbound call team, you might have a DM strategy, direct messaging strategy. You just can push that and push that and push that and push that. Now I'm guessing that if you're that niche, you probably only need, I don't know, 15, 20 clients per year.

Your official capacity is you only need a couple of clients a month. You might say, "Well, we only really need to get 10 to 20 to 30 people to fill that assessment in every single month." That basically is a perfect repeatable week. If we break that up and say 10 a week, if we can get 10 people a week to fill in the assessment, and we call them up and talk to them, that's going to be our perfect repeatable week. Online assessment would be a great way to do that. Could be a boardroom presentation, could be a lunch and learn every Friday. I'll give you an example of a financial planner. When I was growing up as a kid, there was this ad in the paper every single Saturday, it was a quarter-page ad, and it basically said, "Are you ready for retirement?"

It said, "Come along and do a retirement readiness workshop," I think it was, or something like that. I went along to it as a 15-year-old, and I basically sat there, and in the room, there was a boardroom table. There was about 15, 20 of us sitting around the table, and the guy goes through and he does the presentation. It was a Wednesday night. Saturday newspaper, Wednesday night, and he just does the presentation, and it's all about dollar cost averaging and investing into a portfolio of funds and blah, blah, blah. He does the presentation and then he just pushes his diary around the table, and he says, "If you want to have a one-to-one with me or my team, put your name in the diary." Now he did this every single week. Every single week.

I went to it twice. I went once when I was 15 and once when I was 18, and it was word for word exactly the same. Now this guy, 10 years later sold his company for $30 million. He had no debt, and he had no outside investors, and he made the Australian Young Rich List. But when they interviewed him, he basically said, "It wasn't a complicated strategy, I just ran the same thing over and over every week. I ran the same ad in the same paper, and every Wednesday night I did an introduction workshop." That is just an intro workshop, and you just basically do that perfect repeatable week, 40 weeks of the year at least. Workshop, it could be a dinner, it could be a lunch.

I know someone in Dubai who has a permanent booking on a Thursday for a private dining at a really nice, I think it's Buddha-Bar or one of these nice restaurants. It's a private dining with 12 seats, and she makes sure that she's got 11 people at the table every Thursday, and she invites the biggest brands and she invites all the people, and her team contacts them through Instagram, and they say, "Hey, would you love to come along to our little private dining that we've got?" That builds a really big agency real fast.

Chris Do:

Then the dinner part is the hook. Then she's doing something that where she's exchanging value with them like in the case of the guy who ran the, "Are you ready for retirement?" He taught the people in the room something so that it would provoke interest, create tension, demand, and then they would schedule an appointment.

Daniel Priestley:

Yeah, for most businesses, it's a combination of educate and entertain. You got to find the blend that's right for you. But essentially in the example of the person in Dubai, what she's doing is she's bringing together people. It's a lot of social proof that the big brands are always there, and she's got the opportunity to say, "What we actually do is we manage these brands and we do these types of things." She can showcase her work, but she can also get everyone else to introduce. But the key is that it's a perfect repeatable week. It's something that you do every single week. You just do it and do it and do it and do it.

You don't have to think, it's every Thursday we've got a lunch with 10 people around the table, right? That's just every Thursday. That's the key to the perfect repeatable week. It's like, "Yep, every week we get 10 people to fill in the scorecard. Every week we do an introduction event. Every week we do a little lunch and learn event." Whatever it is for the business, you find something you can just crank the handle and repeat every week. That's the perfect repeatable week.

Chris Do:

I imagine it would take a little trial and error until you find the thing that works. Then once you find something that work works, you might refine it, but you're quite literally doing the same thing over and over again. So it doesn't become this heavy load for you, right?

Daniel Priestley:

It's set and forget. I don't need to think. I can just literally just do the same thing. I would say most businesses I come across, if I ask a few questions, they almost always can tell me something that they did that worked that would be repeatable. Just the crazy thing is they just don't do it. They just don't repeat it. It's like someone who goes to a well puts the bucket down the well, it comes up full of water, and then they go, "Oh, I won't do that again." I'm just like, "Why?" Repeat what works.

Chris Do:

Okay. You said at the very top of this, which is to provide an online assessment, and it's way for you to give someone some value at scale so they can do a health knowledge fit check. You and I are talking about working together for your ScoreApp. Everybody who's listening to this, that doesn't have to be painful either because I think Daniel's scratching his own itch. He's realizing people need this. So you built the tool, and from what I've seen so far, the integration with AI, it's super elegant, it's very easy. You removed most of the pain points around this. In a future episode, be on lookout for that, where we're going to use this exact same strategy to have people signal to us that they're interested in enrolling in something.

We'll show you how it's built, we'll show you the practical applications of it. We'll be using it all through this technology that makes it super elegant. It's called ScoreApp, and we'll circle back on that later. Daniel, what other big concepts are in the book that we haven't yet touched on? Because in full disclosure, I've read about a third of the book. I'm bluffing my way through the rest here. So I'm just going to ask you what else is important for me to understand.

Daniel Priestley:

Well, we talk about the different phases of a campaign. When we get into the spotlight campaigns, we talk about campaign planning, tension building, signaling that you're oversubscribed, releasing the supply, and then following up with sales calls. We literally talk about what can you be doing to break that down into its steps. The spotlight campaigns are interesting. The spotlight campaigns are basically like every quarter you're going to have all these leads sitting around, and you want to have something for them to reengage around. It could be an online Zoom event. It could be taking people off to some special concert. It could be like private box seats at a sporting event. It could be that you do a product launch or a feature launch. Any of those things like a closed-door sale or it's something special and you want to have a buildup to it.

You want to ramp it up and say, "Oh, this is happening now, and register now, and here's your tickets," and that sort of stuff. Those are all important. I talk about campaign teams. A campaign team should be four people, that there's typically a four-person campaign team, and essentially you've got the key person of influence who's going to be the face of the campaign or the compère or the host of the campaign. You've got the head of sales who's going to make sure that the actual leads turn into sales, the head of operations, who's going to make sure that it all runs smoothly, and someone who's going to manage the finances or the money. I talk about these little four-person campaign teams and basically assigning this to a four-person. Or if you're an entrepreneur, getting a few collaborators on this stuff.

Chris Do:

Can I ask you a very selfish question?

Daniel Priestley:

Of course.

Chris Do:

Okay, here we go. I need help, Daniel. I'm going to set this up, so you're going to be the hero and I'm going to play the fool, and I'm totally okay accepting whatever judgment you may render. So we have a coaching community called the Pro Group, which you're familiar with. I don't deal with any of the marketing anymore, and we're trying to grow this group to be like 1,000 or 2,000 people. I have a marketing team. There's two people on the marketing team. There's designers to support them, and tech people and writers and all that stuff. What do I need to do to be able to create an oversubscribed state? Because we do run webinars where I give value, I teach, I educate, and entertain, I think.

Then people will show up to the webinars signaling that they're interested, but they're actually not because we've discovered that quite a few people aren't ready to spend that kind of money, it's not even that much money, and to join a professional development group because their mindset isn't there. They're just there because they want the free lesson. I don't know if you need more information than that, but what are we doing wrong? Because we're definitely doing things wrong.

Daniel Priestley:

The first thing is set official capacity. When you said 1,000 or 2,000, you need to pick an official capacity. You want to say this is a group for 1,600 people. That's it. When we hit 1,600, that's it. After that, it's a waiting list, or maybe it's 2,000, but as soon as it's 2,000, it's not going to be 2,001. Then you want to say, "This is a group four X type of people who want to solve X type of problem or who want to be around these types of thing, or there has to be some criteria." Then essentially what you want to do is say the first step is an application to be selected for the group.

What you might do is say, "Currently, we have 1,000 people, we're capping it at 2,000. So what we've decided to do is bring in 100 people a month for 10 months. That's how we're going to do it. We're going to ramp it up over 10 months, and no matter how many people apply, we will only take on 100 a month, and we'll onboard those people properly, and we'll get to know them. We'll have a special onboarding session and all of those things. We do that in the first month, and we'll give you a little directory of all the newbies, and we'll look after you as you come on board."

Then the goal is, well, if we need to hit 100 a month, let's say we have 400 on the webinar, and we let people know, "The official capacity is 2,000, we're already at 1,000, we're bringing on 100 a month for 10 months, or 83 a month for 12 months and fill in the application. If you're not successful this month, we'll roll you over to the next month, and we'll let you know." The key is you want to create some rules around it. You want to create a game, and you want to be real about it.

You want to say, "You know what? If you have to be doing 500 grand to get in," like 500 grand revenue and above, then as soon as someone says, "I do $490," it's like, "Well, come back when you do the last 10,000, you've got to hit the criteria." You might have some criteria around tangibles like revenue, or you might have some criteria around intangibles like, "Are you willing to give back with your business?" Or you might say, "There's some sort of personality test or some sort of thing that you have to go through first." You might do all of those things to make it a buying experience, and then stick to your knitting, stick to your guns.

When you hit 2,000, that's it. It's a wait list. You keep doing what worked. You keep running those workshops, but you build and build and build the wait list, and it becomes more exclusive and more exclusive. Then once you've got a big waiting list, you tell all the people in the group, "If you want to stop, if you want to quit, that's totally fine, we will buy back your membership, we'll give you a refund plus 10% or plus 20% or plus 50%. We want anyone who doesn't want to be here, we want you out because we have a waiting list of people who want in."

Chris Do:

That's lovely. I would love to be in that place where I'm like, "I'm going to pay you to leave. I'll pay you more than you've invested because more people want to get in."

Daniel Priestley:

It's great. I have paid people to leave. I had a guy who was really annoying at one of my workshops, and I said, "I'm going to ask you to leave." He said, "No, I've taken the day off." I said, "What's your day rate?" He said, "400 pounds a day." I said, "I'm going to pay you 800 pounds for the day, and I'm going to pay you 200 pounds for your ticket, and that's 1,000 pounds and you're going to leave."

Chris Do:

Did he leave?

Daniel Priestley:

Yeah, he left.

Chris Do:

With a smile on his face?

Daniel Priestley:

No, he was a bit crossed. But we're in a position where we had so many great people there. It's like, "If someone's not right for the group, I'm not going to let someone ruin someone else's experience." Anyway, a separate story, but guess what? I left with a smile on my face. It felt really good.

Chris Do:

I bet you did. I bet you did. Okay. Well, he can't be that crossed because he got everything and some back, and so he wasn't really out of pocket for anything. Mostly probably professionally embarrassed and probably has to do a quick check-in with himself at that point, right?

Daniel Priestley:

I've only had to do it once. I'm pretty tolerant guy.

Chris Do:

Okay. We've been talking to Daniel Priestly about his book, Oversubscribed. I think he's given you a pretty high-level summary of the big concepts in the book, and I hope you're all able to map what he's sharing about being oversubscribed, having greater demand versus supply. One of the clear principles here, and I'm just taking note myself, which is just figure out what your finite capacity is and just stick to it. Don't let greed get in the way. Then as soon as you do that, now you've controlled the supply of whatever it is that you're doing, service, group coaching, events, products, whatever you're doing. Then you can really realize the benefit of having too many customers or buyers of a thing that you have a finite quantity in doing. Now people who are in the NFT space already understand this concept.

Everybody, you guys understand this. I hate to draw it to this, but I see it. I see the parallel. You can get this free NFT, great, but only the people who hold the free NFT can then be allowed to buy the next tier NFT, and it keeps going on and on and on. So some NFTs, the initial drop is $1 or very little or even 100 bucks, but you need to have that as your ability to buy the next thing. That thing that you get for free or for no money then becomes super valuable because if your NFT were to blow up, the only way you can buy into the program is through this. So you're creating inherent value for people who own things. Porsche does a great job with this. Rolex does a great job. You can actually increase value.

That's the logic part, which we need to address a lot of times, and we're not clear on the ROI of that. I see this now, Daniel, you've laid it out really clearly. Now people are going to get pissed off. I'm just going to say this, you're going to get upset because you're like, "Wait, what happened to the Raising Entrepreneurial Children episode that you both promised?" Because the internet has been hammering both of us like, "When? When? When?" You know what? Not now. Because I want to have a full-on conversation with you about Raising Entrepreneurial Children but tease us a little bit, Daniel, what can we expect when we're going to talk about Raising Entrepreneurial Children?

Daniel Priestley:

Well, let's just start with the idea that the school system was created in a time where what the world needed was component labor. We needed people who could fit into local geography jobs, and they could fit into the local nursing hospital or the local police station or the local factory. Essentially, you needed a very standardized set of skills that would fit into any number of standardized work environments. That was the schooling system. It's done a great job of getting us through the industrial age and extending life expectancy and growing GDP and improving quality of life for billions of people. I'm not against the schooling system, but I am aware that we're now moving into a different economy, a different way of thinking, a different paradigm. The schooling system is a very slow-to-react institution because it's so large.

Essentially what we have to do is say, "Hey, we need to think about what kind of world do our kids grow up in with AI and technology and jobs that are all over the world and all this stuff. How do we raise kids for that world?" Now the one thing I do want to say is that this is not about forcing children to be entrepreneurs. It's about encouraging those natural sparks of entrepreneurship that are already in them. Simple things like when a child wants something, they have to learn how to communicate it effectively, and we just give it a word called a pitch. We say, "You need to pitch that better. That's a great idea, but you haven't pitched it effectively. Let me introduce you to how to pitch an idea properly."

Or if a child wants to negotiate, rather than just saying, "No means no, and I will never change my mind on that because I said no. I mean no." You say, "I'm not willing to change my position because you haven't negotiated effectively. Maybe if you negotiate better, then I'll talk to you about how to negotiate better. But if we negotiate, then I'm willing to change my position because that's what happens with good negotiation."

We are just starting to say, "Hey, wait a second. Maybe some of the home truths of how you raise kids, no means no and all that stuff in terms of your bedtime is this," maybe that needs a little bit of a rethink. Maybe we need to introduce them to some of the entrepreneurial paradigms. Kids love this. My kids on a cold day, they make hot chocolate, they stand out the front, and they yell at the people going path, "Get your hot chocolates 1 pound for hot chocolate." They love creating a product and take it to market. They love seeing people sip the hot chocolate and say that it's delicious. They're only four, five, and eight. At all ages, they love negotiating, they love pitching ideas.

Chris Do:

You create an environment where they're being trained to think and work like this and understand how later on when they get out of school or everywhere they go, actually, they can apply these skills, how to pitch, how to negotiate, and everything's negotiable. I got to ask you this question because, of course, as a parent, you work, and you get tired, and they wanted to ask for something unreasonable, your instinct is just to say no, how do you practice the patience to be able to sit down, "Well, you haven't presented a compelling case enough for me to change my position on this"? How does that work in the Priestly household?

Daniel Priestley:

Well, they've got to still interact with the real world. I'm not creating a false environment where things are just easily negotiable. If they catch me at the wrong time, then the answer's going to be no. Maybe I just say, "Hey, look, this is the wrong time to ask me because I'm busy doing other things. Maybe if you ask me later, then the answer might change, and if you change the way that you say." It's just taking that little micro step of saying... Rather than just being hard and fast about certain things, it's basically saying, "Can I create an environment that's a little bit more like the real world where you can get ahead if you do certain things?" It's laying some frames, it's having an agreement about school. Kids need it to have an understanding that you know and they know that school's not the be-all and end-all. You've got an agreement around it.

It's like, "Hey, look, we both know that school doesn't teach you how to be great at life, but it does teach you the basics, and it does have value." I know and you know when they come to you, and they say, "Oh, I don't like these things. I like my kids at the moment, they don't like phonics." There's this thing that they do called phonics. I say, "Hey, look, I agree with you. Phonics is boring as hell and you don't like it, but let me explain to you, it's a building block for something. Let me tell you what it's a building block for." We have an agreement about if we can get through phonics, we understand where that's taking us. There's also little tiny things like kids break stuff all the time. They build stuff and break stuff. One of the things that I love saying to my kids is the fun part is building it, not having it.

Once you've finished the Lego, it's boring at that point, right? It was really fun building the Lego, but once you've got, it's really just sitting there. I keep saying to them, the fun part is building it, not having it. It doesn't matter if it gets broken because you get the chance to rebuild it or build something different. That is a really interesting paradigm because in life, stuff's going to break. They're going to get disrupted. Their careers are going to get changed four times, five times a decade. Every decade for the rest of their life, they're going to get disrupted and disrupted and disrupted and disrupted.

If they have a belief that the fun part's building it, not having it, they're going to go, "Actually, you know what, I'm just going to get on with rebuilding." That's going to be a positive attitude to the disruption to come.

Chris Do:

I cannot wait to have this conversation with you. I love how you're reframing it with them that, "No isn't always no, no is negotiable and not to be discouraged." I think some of the things that scare people in adult life is to hear the word no, and you're priming them and conditioning them to say, "No is just the beginning of the negotiation and it's awesome." You're also teaching them to want to build things, to create things, and becoming detached with the ownership of that thing.

They're going to be much more flexible in how they see things like, "Okay, that didn't work, but I'll try a different thing." It doesn't really matter, and it's not to chase the success, but it's to love the journey of it. I think that's enough of a tease, everybody. I'm super sorry. I know you're still angry because right now you're like, "What? He's going to end it there?" Guess what? Yes, I am. That's where we're going to end this. Daniel Priestley, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Is there anything else you want to talk about or promote before we get out of here?

Daniel Priestley:

You know what, I just love your stuff. I'm geeking out on all things Chris Do, and I enjoy our friendship, and I enjoy what we're talking about. The thing that you and I are really connecting with at the moment is this AI stuff, this data, both of us are very much creatives, but it's like how do we interact with data and AI and our personal human creativity? I love where that conversation's going, and we hinted at the fact that you and I were going to be talking about some ways to use AI in marketing and leverage more data and turn that into creativity. I'm really on the edge of my seat about what we're going to do with that.

Chris Do:

Look at this, we're killing people. We're going to tease three things on this episode, scorecard, the app, and the marketing part of that, and being able to run quizzes at scale using AI, AI itself as a topic, and how that's going to boost our creativity and what we can do. When we were in Newcastle, you had said something and somebody had asked, "What's your opinion on AI?" You said, "It's going to be something that's going to generate massive wealth, except for it's not going to be distributed evenly. That's the trick. You want to be on the right side of the distribution of that." We're going to be talking about how to raise entrepreneurial children. There's just too much stuff. It's going to be 55 episodes with Daniel Priestley or something like that. Thanks so much for doing this, Daniel.

Daniel Priestley:

I love it. Thanks, Chris. It's good to see you. I'm Daniel Priestley, and you are listening to The Futur.

Stewart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Stewart Schuster. Thank you to Anthony Barro for editing and mixing this episode, and thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

‍