Vince:

Launching the brand, I launched at a market stall in the South Melbourne market. This market had 11,000 people walking a day on the weekends. I'm like, "This is a great opportunity to get people to look at the product, get feedback, you don't have to buy the shoes, but I want to get your attention. I want you to stop and look at them and tell me if it's for you." And so, people would be walking around with their shopping bags, getting their groceries, and I'd be throwing them a shoe. I'm like, "Hey, catch this."

They'd catch it and like, "Wow, this is crazy light."

I'm like, "If you've got a second, try them on, they're super comfortable." And we end up selling 500 pairs in less than five weeks.

Chris:

I want you to be able to tell your story in the way that you want to tell it, because I think your story's important for people to hear. But once you hear Vince's story, I think we're going to get really into him building a brand, and doing things a little bit differently, and going out on his own, and I'm just fascinated by that. So, whether you're going to connect and resonate to his story as to who he is, or you have a brand, a product, an idea, that you want to launch, I think there's a lot to learn and unpack.

So, Vince, without further ado, can you please introduce yourself and tell the audience a little story about who you are?

Vince:

Yeah, of course. Thanks Chris, thanks for having me. So, my name's Vince Lebon. Firstly and foremost, I'm a husband, a father, a founder, and a forever curious design collaborator. I've worked with some big brands like Adidas, Asics, and Foot Locker over in the States. And designed for some celebrities and professional athletes. I've been in the business for 20 years going strong, so it's been an incredible journey. I've had my own footwear brand for the last 10 years, and it's about just making great products with great people.

Chris:

And that product that you're talking about, it's called Rollie Nation, and you shared a story on stage and you didn't call it Rollie, you called it Rollie Nation, tell us why.

Vince:

Absolutely. So, I mean, it's not a shoe company. We do make shoes currently, but it's an experience brand and it's called Rollie Nation, not Rollie Shoes for a reason. I have this fear that one day I'm going to wake up 20 years later and go, "I just sold shoes for a living." That's not what we're doing, we're building a brand, we're trying to build emotional connections with our customers, and just allow people to build on self-expression, and feel comfortable with who they are, and really push the boundaries to live their best life.

Chris:

Tell me the distinction between someone who makes shoes and someone who's building an experience brand, and are all companies doing an experience brand, or how do you see the difference between those two?

Vince:

I think there's a lot of brands out there that are just focusing on the product first. When I first launched the brand, I mean being a footwear designer, I still worked on the business model for the first 12 months, and I think that's what separated me from a lot of other businesses. A lot of other companies, particularly in Australia, focus on the design itself. They might go overseas, take some designs, make some copies, make some minor changes. Whereas for me it was like, "Let's work on the model itself. How do we build a brand that people care about? That people connect with?" And so, even if people copied our brand, or product, would people still want to buy the brand itself? And so, we focus more on the emotion than the product itself, the product is an outcome of the thinking.

Chris:

I love that. I think if anybody is a smart marketer in the 21st century says, "Yes, we understand you have to build an emotional connection with an audience and a tribe. We must prefer what it is that you do over comparable knockoffs or cheaper alternatives." That's how you know a have a brand.

Vince:

Exactly.

Chris:

How do you build that emotional connection with people, so that the experience transcends, "I'm buying something to cover my feet."

Vince:

I think you put the customer first, and the feeling you want to give them. There's so many times I've met people who go, "I've got a business idea."

I'm like, "Cool. Shoot, tell me all about it." And they start with the benefit that they get out of it.

So, like, "I've got experience here. I want it to be X amount of dollars." And they're so focused on themselves.

"Yeah, but what's in it for them?" If a customer is going to be working nine to five at a job they probably don't like, you know you need to provide value for them to exchange their hard-earned cash for something that you are delivering and an ideal world, it's much more than the actual function of it.

So, for us as a brand, people are not just buying footwear, they're not buying something to protect their feet as they walk. They're actually buying into an ecosystem, they're buying into a lifestyle, they're buying into a community. So, when people walk around and they're like, "Oh, you are wearing Rollies too."

They're like, "Yeah, I've got six. I've got seven pairs." Or, "This is my favorite." It's a completely different vibe, and this is why we're able to branch into clothing, or we could do, my dream is to do a huge festival one day, and that doesn't feel like a break for the brand, at all.

Chris:

Okay. So, let's go back in time, because I think you're doing something that many people aspire to, dream of, who actually aren't anywhere closer today than that initial idea. Take us back in time, tell us a little bit about how you were brought up, and what seeds were planted early on that allowed you to think this way?

Vince:

So, I mean, I'm fortunate enough, and unfortunate, that I came from a first generation family into Australia. So, I'm born in Mauritius, my parents came down here, my mom didn't speak much English, my dad was working two jobs for years. And what I noticed with my dad is, even though he started really low, he'd come back and he'd just keep getting promotions. And he just moved up the ladder really, really quickly, because he was very capable, very dedicated. And my dad always used to say, "Just don't do a half job, if you're going to go and do it, do it properly." And I think that value system really hit home with me, because it wasn't something he was just saying, it was something he was actually doing.

But I guess, being from the western suburbs, which is typically a more underprivileged area in Melbourne, it was challenging, because I was starting to be a doctor, that's what my mom wanted me to be, so I could look after them when they get older. But I got to a point where in year 11, I was like, "This is not for me. I don't want to live my life for them." So, I dropped all my math and science subjects, and did arts. And my mom absolutely killed me that night, she hated on me. But I knew it was the thing that I needed to do. And as soon as I put my energy into that space, I was not just doing it for them, I was doing it for myself and really excelled very quickly.

I was working on some extra classes outside of school, so I was working on my portfolio to get into the multimedia space. So, originally, I wanted to be a graphic designer, multimedia artist. My portfolio is looking really good. I end up getting an interview with a post-grad course, and I was filling out the forms and at the end it said, "What degree did you do and what's your two years experience?"

And I said to the guy, "I don't have that, I'm coming straight out of high school."

And he said, "Well, this is not the course for you, you need to go do that and then come back."

And I said to him, "Well, this is where I want to be, so can you please just have a look at my portfolio, give me some tips, and that way I'll know if I'm in the right direction, the right path."

He looked at my portfolio and he said, "We'll see you on Monday." So, it was an incredible opportunity.

Chris:

Wow.

Vince:

So, I was the youngest person in the school, everyone else was like 26 years old and above. And so, I got my start very, very early on, so it allowed me to look at life a bit different and go, "Well, even though that's the expectation, it doesn't always have to be the way to go through that regular path."

Chris:

Let me make sure I understand this part here, you are in high school and you're applying to a graduate program?

Vince:

So, I just finished high school and went into a post-grad. Yes.

Chris:

What part of your brain says that's okay to even apply it to? I need to understand that part first.

Vince:

So, the lady that was I was doing the extra classes with, she used to teach at this university.

Chris:

I see.

Vince:

And she really believed in me, she believed in my work and she organized an interview with the head of that department at that university. So, I'm not sure if she really knew it was a post=grad, whether she was just wanting me to meet him to show him what I was capable of doing. But yeah, it was just serendipitous and I ended up in that course. I ended up doing two years with this incredible degree, but there was constant roadblocks, because as soon as I finished it and started applying for jobs, everyone's like, "You've got this qualification, but you've never worked in the industry before." Well, how do you get experience if you haven't actually had a job? So, it's just the chicken and the egg problem.

Chris:

Yeah. Just to make sure I'm understanding the terminology here, maybe we describe things differently, when you say post-grad course, is that after you get your bachelor's degree, that post=grad?

Vince:

Yes.

Chris:

Okay, it is. Well, we're talking the same thing, so this is the equivalent of a master's program, a PhD program. And you are like, through the recommendation of your high school teacher, applied to a program full of self-confidence, saying, "Would you just take a look?"

Vince:

Yes.

Chris:

Okay. So, there's a lot of thoughts I have right now, which is, if I'm 18 years old graduating high school and I'm going to be around a bunch of 20 something, I'm going to feel a little strange. Everybody's got a man's body and I'm still a boy, did you have any of those concerns?

Vince:

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was actually 17, because I finished school early. It's like when you're at that age, you've got so much confidence, that if you're actually passionate about what you're doing, you almost take it on, it becomes fuel, right? So, I'm like, "Let me show these guys. I've got what it takes. I'll earn their respect very quickly." And that's what happened, I mean, and a lot of the guys, some had kids, or some had debts, because they had just finished paying their university degree, whereas I didn't have any of that. So, I think it might just be that minority mentality where I was like, "Let me use this as fuel to keep pushing." And it can be seen as a barrier, but I don't see it as that, at all, I saw it as an opportunity.

Chris:

Well it sounds to me, in just hearing your story here, coming from high school and saying to your mom, your parents, but in this case your mom, the biggest barrier was, "If mom can handle this, then I'm okay." And once you decided you want to go into the field of design and arts, you really blossom as a person, because it doesn't sound like it took a long time from you saying, "I want to do this," to actually achieving whatever, so you were some kind of art prodigy kid, right?

Vince:

Yeah, it felt that way inside, for sure, but I think the problem, why it was so hard for my mom at the time to digest was, I was really good at math and science. I have both sides of the brain, which is, I know, a weird thing for people to process. But that for me, I was really good at it, and to drop something that you're really good at to follow a passion, and potentially, something that could earn you lots of money and that's what they valued. Whereas, I valued happiness and I know that if you are the best in your field, you could make money doing anything. So, I took a slightly riskier path, but I think one that was well worth it. And you see throughout my entire career, I do that consistently, chase happiness over financial gain.

Chris:

If somebody's hearing this and they're looking at their life, however old they are, however young they are, like, "Man, this is not the life I was meant to have. I didn't choose the course of happiness. I chose the course of listening to others, pleasing others, or going about the safe path."

And your story, all of a sudden, it's got me up in my chair like, "Wait a minute." What else would you say to those people who are stuck in that place, that they know there's something deeper inside of them? How do you help them? I mean, for people like you, and possibly like me, where we see something, we think something, we just go for it, it doesn't seem that big of a decision, but I've talked to enough people now, where I see it's a real struggle for them. Is there any other thing that you can add to this that builds upon this chase happiness over money?

Vince:

Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's your life, right? You're only letting yourself down. So, if it's what you really want to do, just go out there and just do it. I'm a kid from the western suburbs that has gone and designed for celebrities around the world, won international awards as a designer, I've launched my own brand, I've done things that, on paper, should not be possible, and it all comes from just a inner belief in yourself. And now, I don't have all the answers at all and it's a process, but it's like I'm willing to take the risks and go, and the benefits completely outweigh that feeling of going, "This doesn't feel right. I might be good at this." Or, "I might be getting something out of it." Whether it's financial reward, but you're certainly giving up something, there's a cost to not living your dreams.

Chris:

So, your cost benefit analysis isn't about money, it's about the price you pay for not being the person you are meant to be?

Vince:

Exactly, yes. And it affects the relationships that you build with people around you.

Chris:

Can you tell me more about how it affects people?

Vince:

So, if you've got kids, or even just brothers and sisters, the happier you are, the better relationships you're going to be able to build with other people. And a lot of that comes down to building the relationship that you have with yourself. I talk a lot about working on your personal life and family life, the same way that you do in your business. It's super important, I set my own goals, I have my own milestones and my own check ins. I literally have a calendar event which checks in with myself to go through my goals.

Chris:

How often do you do that?

Vince:

I do that weekly.

Chris:

And tell me a little bit ,without getting too creepy, how does that sound?

Vince:

How does it sound when I say it out loud to people? It sounds weird. But if you look at the success rate, it's incredible, right? But the funny thing is, if you say, "I set goals in a business and I have quarterly check ins and I do that." That doesn't seem odd, right?

That's like, "Oh, that's how you get to success. That's how you achieve those things." But why would you not take that same approach at a personal level? I would argue that your personal life's more important than your business life, so why would you not say, "Okay, these are the things that are important to me at a personal level." Whether that's fitness, whether it's meditation, spiritually, whatever those things are that important to you. And then even more so, on a family side, what's important to you and your family? My daughter had a speech impediment and for me it was like, "I'm going to make this an absolute priority this year." Cool, so I had check ins, "Have we spoken to these doctors? What are we doing? Are we training with her every single night?" And then you can start to check in the progress and every week you can hold yourself accountable. I have a traffic light system too, so I hate seeing red, and so you just try to keep everything green, it's typical traditional goal setting stuff.

Chris:

So, you're doing this on a weekly basis. You're saying, "How am I showing up as a father, as a husband, for myself, for my business?" And is this in silence, you stare at a wall? Or are you are working through a calendar or a check in program? What does it physically literally look like?

Vince:

Yeah, so I use the Things app for this, and so I track every single task, so I generally have three to five, in each of the categories, personal, work and family. And I'll just have a traffic light, like I said, I'll have a little color on every single one. And I'll go through and every single week, I'll make sure that I actually put something in there that I'm doing that week that gets me closer to that goal. So, it allows me to look at the end of the year and say, "Right, if I achieved it, why? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?" I also tracked the things that I said I was going to do, and if I didn't do them, I put a strike through, so I know, "Oh, that was a mental challenge for me." So, I can get closer to succeeding every time.

Chris:

Some people I know, won't put down their goals, because they're afraid to see them manifest in a real tangible way. I don't think it's because they don't want to do it, it's almost like if I try and I fail, then I'll know that I was never meant to do it. And I think that's why people are afraid to commit. So, when you put a goal down and you don't hit them, I'm going to assume you're human like the rest of us, that you don't achieve everything, always at the highest level. What is the self-talk like when you don't actually achieve it?

Vince:

It's just part of it. It's just part of it, and you have to be okay with that, right? I always try to take every L as a learn, not a loss, and you just got to keep building on it. The biggest challenge around goal setting is not actually following through, it's setting the right goal. It's actually setting the goal that actually matters and makes a difference. The worst feeling you can get is going, "I want to learn to how to play guitar." Or, "I want to learn how to speak French." And then you realize you have no people, no friends, that actually can speak French. So, you're like, "Why the hell did I actually make that my goal? It's something I've wanted to do for the last 10 years." So, I think you've got to really get to, don't just look at the surface when you're setting goals, go, "What's really important to me." And then I think when you get there, you realize that it's something you really want to achieve when you put in the time.

Chris:

Tell me a little bit more about that competition that you entered in and what happened, because I think that's the fascinating part of your story.

Vince:

So, I'd launched my footwear company Rollie, I'm a designer by trade, so I wasn't designing much, to be honest. Three years in, we were selling to Nordstrom, Anthropology, Free People, on paper it looked like we were absolutely killing it, but the reality was is that we were struggling to fund it all. It wasn't crazily profitable and I wasn't designing, so I was missing this fulfillment around design, so I decided to take a design sabbatical. And so, I applied for a scholarship at Pencil Academy, which is the world's best sneaker academy, it's run by Dwayne Edmonds, the creative director of the Jordan brand. And I actually didn't get in the first time I applied, and I was pretty down at the time, I was like, "How did I not get in? I've got my own footwear company, I've been designing for years." So, I reached out to him and said, "Hey, can you just give me some tips on how I can improve? It's something I really want to do."

And he said, "We get so many people applying, don't take it to heart. Just keep applying." So, he didn't even give me tips on how I can improve as an artist. At that time it was just like, "Don't stop." So, I applied for my second one and before I had even received a response from them, I started working on the third.

And that was my mental shift of going, "This is no longer about me getting in. This is about me crafting my skills. And really honing in on my expertise and getting better and better." So, before I even got the response, I kept working on the next one, and then I got in. So, I flew over to Portland, in the States, did a course there, didn't realize it turns into a competition, at the time. And so, it was a competition that the winning design would be a shoe for Asics and Foot Locker. I ended up winning that competition, which was awesome. So, I released a shoe with them, the shoe sold out in about an hour and I was pumped. I came back to Australia, it was a great experience.

And then about a month later, they reached out to me and said, "Hey, we are looking to do a TV show. We'd really love for you to apply."

I've got two kids at this point, I'm not thinking about being on a reality TV show, but I thought, "Incredible opportunity. Let's give it a go." I applied, I got in. And so, for eight weeks we designed for a new celebrity each week. It was absolutely intense, we got given a brief, we had to concept that brief for the first day, pitch it to everyone, refine it, and then we'd physically make the shoe. And then we would present this shoe on the concept back to the celebrity on the fourth day. They would then wipe our entire computers, and we'd do the same thing over and over again, for eight weeks. Incredible experience, it was really, really tough. We had hidden cameras everywhere. They were pushing us to our limits, which makes great TV. But we made shoes for Ashley Graham, Macklemore, Anthony Anderson, Fetty Wop. It was really cool. Like I said, just a little kid from the western suburbs, over on the other side of the world, designing with some of the best brands and best celebrities.

Chris:

When you were doing the competition, after being accepted, you came back to the States, was this in Portland, or was this in New York?

Vince:

Yeah, that was in Portland still at this point.

Chris:

Oh, it was in Portland. And I don't know anybody that's been on a reality TV show, so I imagine that there are cameras everywhere and filming you all the time. Is that the case?

Vince:

Oh yeah, all the time. There were hidden cameras everywhere, and there was about eight manned cameras at all times. I didn't open a single door myself for eight weeks, so I got home and I was like, to my wife, "What are you doing? Why are you not opening the door for me?" You get to this point where it becomes your reality, right? It's hilarious.

Chris:

And that's when your wife smacks you in the head, "You open your own freaking door."

Vince:

Yeah, exactly. So, I was back to reality, not reality TV.

Chris:

Wow. And having all those cameras and people around you all the time, documenting everything that you do, how did you handle the pressure, or the stress that one, I imagine, would feel? I think a lot of creative people don't want to show their process, because it's ugly, it's messy, and you do a lot of ugly things before it gets good, and I think we get really self-conscious, but here you are being filmed and taped the entire time. How did you respond to that?

Vince:

I was just staying focused on the product. I just wanted to make really good product. It's such a short window that you're running on adrenaline, you're just having to be constantly working on cool ideas and collaborating. And for me, it wasn't about winning, it was really about just creating a great product, and by doing that, in turn, I wasn't adding more pressure on myself.

So, for me, we kept winning week after week, and we became the dream team as three people in each team. And so, I was sweet the whole time until I spoke to my son, which we could only speak to them, probably, once a week, which was really hard. We had no phones, no email. But then just before the finale, my son said, "Hey Dad, can you please win for me?"

And I was like, "Oh." And so, that was the only time where I really thought, "Okay, this is bigger than me." The impact that I could have on my kids by coming home and having a W, and having them see that I'm following my dreams, that was the only time I really took on the pressure of trying to make it work.

Chris:

I think there's a lot of similarities between our stories, and I'm trying my best not to project what I think about me onto you, and just listening to your story. So, I got this question, which is, in competition, if you don't think that there's competition that allows you to go into your flow state, you're not thinking about trying to win, it's just trying to be the best version of yourself. Is that what you're going through?

Vince:

Oh, 100%. That is exactly the mindset. I'm really not looking at the other person. I'm just competing against myself. And not even competing, probably not even the right word, it's really just about putting your best self forward and going, "How can I improve?" It's an opportunity to be your fullest self, to be in that flow state and just create, I absolutely loved it.

Chris:

And it's when your son snaps you back into the competition saying, "Hey, can you win for me?" Then the stakes are put back on, then you feel a little bit of that pressure to show up for the person who probably matters the most to you, it's like your child. Okay, there's a story that's going to be told here, and depending on how this turns out, it's going to be a different story. But it's not a bad story or a good story, it's just a different story.

And so, when he says that to you, do you feel like any part of your creative process had changed in that moment? Did anything flip, or was it like, "Nope, put that aside, park that for a bit, stay with your winning formula and just keep doing what you're doing?"

Vince:

Oh, it definitely flipped at the beginning, it added in a different layer of complexity, but it took me a little bit to just go, Okay, stop. Get back into the zone. This is about product first." Once again, it's about that, and when I talk about product, not just talking about the shoe, I'm talking about the entire experience. The way we deliver the pitch, the way that we do the packaging, the way that I even put myself into the shoe. So, the final shoe that we did was for James Harden, right? And James Harden was the MVP that year. So, it was a big, big deal to be designing a shoe for James Harden. This is a shoe that was going to go to market. And luckily, I also won that competition and the shoe actually did go to the market, so it was a dream come true.

I was a kid that was told, when I was a young kid, that I'm going to be a basketball player when I grow up. They were my two options, being a basketball player or being a rapper. So, to fast-forward years on and to be like, "I now have an opportunity to design sneakers for the best of the best at the time."

It was incredible, a lot of pressure, but I ended up doing a very old technique, which is called a patina, where we hand paint the shoe, and we did a transition from black through to red. It was a really big gamble, but it really represented me as a designer, and I love that I took that risk and go, "You know what? This is something I have never seen on a performance shoe, and I'm going to take old traditional craftsmanship techniques, and bring them to the future." And that juxtaposition between those two was like, "If I lose with this, I'm cool with that." Because it's my best foot forward, it's something I'm proud of, and for me, I'd rather do that than take the easy win and try to create a product that I think someone else would like, that doesn't feel honest to me.

Chris:

I'm going to make some assumptions that, in a week it's not a lot of time to not only conceptualize design and then fabricate a shoe that I assume then has to maybe fit a certain person, I'm not sure, but if you take a risky technique on patina the shoe that if it doesn't turn out the way that you want, there's probably not a whole lot of time for you to fix that, so it's a big gamble, right? Do I have that right?

Vince:

100%. And it was like the hero piece of the shoe. So, it was a big risk, but I also saw it as a big reward opportunity, so we took it.

Chris:

Well, clearly you were rewarded for it in the shoe. You wind up winning and then the shoe went into production?

Vince:

Yeah, that's right.

Chris:

How did they replicate this old school technique?

Vince:

So, they hacked it a little bit, to be honest.

Chris:

Leave it to corporations, I assumed they would, yes.

Vince:

Yeah, I mean, the good thing is we were able to present the original concept to James Harden in Vegas in its purest form. So, that was awesome. Yeah, the production shoe, they've got to produce a lot more, and unfortunately, I don't think it stayed true to the design, but that's part of the process of being a designer. Of going, "I've done my job here, guys. Take it to market." And sometimes it doesn't always work out how you'd like it to, but you need to be okay with that, it's part of the process.

Chris:

I think that's the difference between a couple of different things, creating a piece of art, which is one of one, which is I think what you did, or creating a highly bespoke limited edition shoe that's going to be super expensive, of of reach to most people, where there's a lot of hand detailing, which I assume they could do, but it's going to probably cost four or five times as much. Or you can create a shoe that is inspired by the original concept, that's mass-produced so that more people can afford it, so they get to experience something that's a proximity of what you created, but obviously not the same thing. So, there's those balances and each person can make their own decisions as to whether they want to make a piece of art, a limited edition shoe, that's very expensive, or something that a lot of people can have and democratize access.

Vince:

Exactly. There's a commercial understanding and need. When you're working with corporations, or even my own footwear brand, you need to have that extra layer of going, "Is this commercial?" Otherwise, if it's art, be an artist. If you're trying to sell shoes, you need to have that lens.

Chris:

Yeah, that's right. And sometimes, I think where people run into a lot of unhappiness is, they work in a commercial space while acting or thinking like an artist, and it creates so much friction between the two.

Vince:

Exactly.

Chris:

My cousin, who's in Australia, had shared something and I was like, "Oh, talking to Vince of Rollie."

And she's like, "Oh my God, I remember this guy when he was on the come up and just out there, just trying to get people to try on his sneakers."

Tell us a little bit about the early days, because I think there's a big gap between, "I have an idea, I want to make some prototypes." And actually running a business. So, take me back to when it was rough and nobody knew you from squat, and you were just trying to get your name out there.

Vince:

Yeah, cool. I got a job at a shoe company, so I worked for a shoe company as the 2IC for the first five years of my career. And I'm extremely grateful to this guy, he came from a bloodline of shoemakers. We traveled around the world, we worked with factories, I'd do the trade shows, we'd do a lot of research, and I really learned the craft through him.

I then left that company and got a joint venture in a Chinese trading company, where I was designing about 400 shoes a season. I was running a sample room of about 100 people, and I was working doing private label shoes for big brands like Chinese Laundry, and Bronx, Steve Madden. And then when I decided to launch my own brand, you don't have these big names behind you anymore, but the factories knew me and knew that I had worked with these big guys, so they really believed in what I was doing. They knew that I was highly skilled in this space, which is rare for a young kid. I guess that's how they saw me back then, I would've been around 28 going, "I want to launch a shoe brand."

And you can imagine the amount of times they've heard this, but I had contacts, I knew the factories. I'd sold to some really big people, so I had a factory that was willing to give me a shot. I did the paper patterns, I did everything myself, so it wasn't like I bought a shoe and said, "Copy this, and we'll make some tweaks." The whole shoe was completely original, and I think that's why I hit, because it was so different. We released a shoe that was a menswear look tailored shoe, in women's. It was super lightweight, which was not a feature that people considered in the purchasing process at that time. Lightweight was considered cheap.

But what I wanted to do was add an extra layer in the purchasing process. I said, "What can I get people to think about?"

Once they've tried it on, it's so comfortable, and they say, "Why?"

I'm like, "Because it's super light. Now, they're looking at every other shoe and thinking they're heavy.

So, it put me in a completely different space where people were, once they were in, they were like, "Oh man, these are the lightest comfortable shoes ever." It took a while, being so early to educate people why lightweight was a benefit. And then, we were fortunate enough that Nike went on this huge wave of pushing lightweight shoes. And so, we rode that trend for a while, which was great.

But launching the brand, I launched at a market stall in the South Melbourne market. That's not sexy for a lot of people. A lot of people want to do this big launch party, and some of them are good, but a lot of it is for ego. Whereas for me, I just wanted to get in front of people. This market had 11,000 people walking, a day, on the weekends. I'm like, "This is a great opportunity to get people to look at the product, get feedback." And for me, it wasn't about, "You don't have to buy the shoes, but I want to get your attention. I want you to stop and look at them and tell me if it's for you." And so, people would be walking around with their shopping bags, getting the groceries, and I'd be throwing them a shoe like, "Hey, catch this."

They'd catch them and like, "Wow, this is crazy light."

I'm like, "If you've got a second, try them on. They're super comfortable." And we end up selling 500 pairs in less than five weeks. So, it was a huge success straight out of the gate. I had then picked up my first wholesale account from that market, which was the world's largest shoe store in Dubai. And then we picked up a distributor in the Netherlands. I picked up a design agency that I was working with, out of Sydney, who was an award-winning agency, and they did big stuff from McDonald's and really big brands, and he just loved the product. We had a good chat and he's like, "I really like you. I want to work with you."

And I'm like, "I can't afford you. I just started three weeks ago."

And he's like, "No, we'll do it all for free." So, that was an incredible opportunity, we did a campaign together, it came runners up for Best Print Ad Of The Year. So, yeah, it was just a huge buzz, from out of the gate. Look, there were heaps of challenges, but out of the gate, there were enough wins for me to go, "We're on the right path. Keep pushing."

Chris:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Welcome back to our conversation.

Because of your relationship with the manufacturers, were you able to get more generous minimum order quantity, or did you have to outlay a bunch of cash? This is the thing that people don't understand, especially when you make physical products, there's a lot of guesswork, and a lot of risk. What sizes are going to be popular? What color ways are going to be popular? And you don't want to be sitting on 5,000 pairs of shoes, not only because you're out a lot of money, but where are you going to warehouse all these things? So, tell me how you did that part.

Vince:

So, yes, I had relationships with the factories, so I was able to get smaller quantities, but those smaller quantities are still a big investment out front, for me at the time anyway. And so, that was part of my business model. I wanted to design a shoe, I was thinking about Havaianas, as it was one shoe and they just kept changing colors and materials each season. I'm like, "This is perfect. There's not a shoe version of that, so let me do a shoe version where it's the same shoe, it's the same outsole, same lace, same shoebox, same sock." So, it made it very easy for the factory.

So, instead of me telling them, "I'm going to do 50 pairs in each color." I'm saying, "Collectively there's 500 pairs, but I'm doing 10 colors."

So, it was a completely different shift where they're like, "Oh, that's not a big problem. We can do that."

And I said to them, "Just give me two years. Let me build this in two years, and then if it's still a problem, I'll find a way around it." And yeah, fortunately it worked. In terms of the warehousing, I had a big three-story warehouse in Melbourne, so that was awesome. It was my garage was the warehouse for the first...

Chris:

Little twist there everywhere. I'm like, "What?"

Vince:

But we didn't stay there long, we grew pretty quickly, so it was okay we had to move on. In terms of the finance, that was really interesting, because I joke about this and it is true, but we told the bank that we were going to do a renovation, so I got $20,000 and invested that entire thing in the shoes. Now, I was going to do a renovation just only when I got the money back from the shoe production, so that's how I funded it all. All self funded.

Chris:

So, you're not advocating for people to commit fraud, you're just saying don't be so specific about the timeline.

Vince:

Exactly, yes.

Chris:

Okay. Banks are hearing this, we've lost a couple of sponsors, we'll get through this. I think it's pretty neat that you're using a constraint as an opportunity to be creative. The constraint is, "I don't have a lot of money to invest, and we need to have a variety of shoes, so what do we do?"

And so, you come up with a concept that's used a lot in collectible toys, which is, you have a really solid blank that then changes its whole attributes, just because the paint is different, or they accessorize it with one small embellishment, and it becomes a whole thing. And people who are collectors, like myself included, it's like, "Oh, I get it." So, there's a really clean profile that has to be timeless and it's designed, otherwise this doesn't work. And then, switching out colors or materials, allows you to have more skews, without actually increasing your production and then therefore sitting on 60,000 shoes, or whatever, and just getting your quantity down, right?

Vince:

Yeah, for sure. That's the commercial lens that I was talking about, right? It would've been amazing for me to go out and design the most fashionable shoe that was a high product, but that wouldn't stand the test of time. Our best-selling shoe right now, is a shoe I designed 10 years ago. I see it as the iPhone, every single year we make improvements to that shoe based on customer feedback, based on material improvements. And so, you are looking at a shoe that's had 10 iterations of improvements. And so, when people try to copy that shoe, they're going back to square one. Whereas, it's like the iPhone, the shoe is just getting better and better with time, each time.

Chris:

So, full disclosure, everybody, I do have a pair, they're super lightweight, they're the most comfortable shoes I've worn. It almost feels like I'm not wearing a shoe, so it makes me very self-conscious, like, "Am I? Oh, I do have shoes on right now." They're that comfortable, they're the kind of shoe that you naturally, not that you would, but you can lay in bed and forget that you actually have shoes on. So, whatever you've done to engineer that shoe, and you talked about this, I think in many ways, a little bit ahead of the curve. Not so far ahead that you become this weird anomaly, but just ahead enough that you got your systems in place, and then the industry catches up to you, in the case with Nike, doing a lot of the promotion on your behalf, to talk about the benefits of a lightweight shoe, right?

Vince:

Yeah, exactly. I remember, I think three years in, or might have been four years in, we got named by WGSN, the world's number one trend forecasting platform, as a Brand To Watch.

Chris:

Oh, wow.

Vince:

And I celebrated for about a minute, and then I was like, "Oh shit, we're going to get copied by everyone, so we need to double down." And that's what happened, but I think, because for me, it's not about looking at trends, it's about creating trends. It's about culture shaping for us. So, working with culture shaping people, and also looking as a brand and going, "How do we provide value and push the culture forward?" That's something that we're very focused on.

Chris:

So, I have a problem. My problem usually is if I make something, I get real self-conscious about trying to promote it, and I'm trying to envision you at the market like, "Hey, catch this. You like that. Why don't we give it a try?" Do you get nervous about doing that kind of stuff, or do you get excited for it?

Vince:

So, I hate pushing my own product, to be honest, but at that point in time, it didn't feel like I was pushing product. It felt like I was in a conversation with people, because I wasn't asking them to buy. I was actually saying, "Hey, check it out. Tell me what you think."

At the end of the day, if we have a conversation and you say it's right for you, and you're like, "This is crazy comfortable, this feels like I'm wearing nothing. This is amazing. How much is it? Can I buy it?" Cool. That's it, I'm just trying to add value into people's lives. If they're like, "This is not for me. It's not my style."

"Mate, cool, have a great day. Let's chat, come see me." It wasn't about the transaction, and so it didn't feel like I was pushing a sale onto people, and I think that was the beauty in that time. As you get bigger, you've got to make sure you keep that connection with people. We've just opened up our new flagship store, and it's been amazing to see that interaction again, to shorten that feedback loop, because you don't really get it through online. You get your lovers and your trolls through your reviews, but you don't really get that honest feedback loop that you do when you're in front of people.

Chris:

The follow-up question I have for you, is people don't buy products, they're looking for meaning and identity. So, if I were talking to someone whose part of the Rollie Nation, who's purchased multiple pairs and it's just deep in the culture. What is the identity that they're forming, based on their purchase decision with your company?

Vince:

I think with us, that's a great question, because I think for us, it is about a lifestyle and an emotion that you're buying into, but it's an emotion that is very much a personal thing. And by you saying, "This is who I am, this product represents who I am." It's about self-expression. And by having self-expression, collectively, we are a community. So, you're not saying, "I'm all about color, crazy color." Or, "I'm about sports or a function." It's actually by just saying, "This is who I am and this brand best represents me. And I love that you have that confidence too." So, that's what that's really buying into, self-expression and confidence.

Chris:

So, perhaps part of it is, "I'm an anti-conformist, and they're sheeple, and you buy what they tell you to buy, I'm going to buy what I want to buy, and this is an expression of my tastes, my aesthetic, and how it fits between maybe, athletics and fashion?"

Vince:

Maybe. Yeah, exactly. It's spirited, spirited rebels is what we call them.

Chris:

They're spirited rebels.

Vince:

It's spirited rebels. Yeah, because I mean, it's people that are going against the grain, the people that are zagging when everyone's zigging. And it's like people that are comfortable with who they are, and they're not just doing it for the sake of trying to be different, just being themselves.

Chris:

And does this identity come from you, are you observing culture and saying, "I want to create something for people." Or is it like, "I got to scratch my own itch and then if you're with me, love to have you aboard."

Vince:

For a long time I tried to keep the two brands separate, my personal brand and the Rollie brand. And what I found over time, is that the Rollie brand was built off my values. And so, that's why I went and was working with celebrities and doing all those things, I thought that was my personal brand. But like I said, as I've really dived into it, it's like, oh no, me as a designer, I've always been about community, about culture. Our shoes are so simple that it means every single line, every single thing on there matters. That's my attention to detail.

And so, by doing that, and the importance of emotional connection, and I think that's why I create so many products that look completely different, because there's one person that might look at a shoe and be like, "I hate that shoe."

But there's another person that also buys in the brand and goes, "I'm obsessed with that shoe." And that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to create a shoe that everybody likes, I'm actually trying to create a shoe that one person connects to at a completely different level.

Where the amount of love emails that we get, you got to remember, I've been doing this for a long time, like I said, 20 years in the business, and I get emails where people are like, "I've traveled around the world in these shoes. I didn't take them off for three weeks. I'm obsessed with them. It's like my best friend, we've traveled the world together." And it might sound weird hearing that, someone talking about a shoe to that level, but it empowered them to do that. So, that's cool, I love that.

Chris:

That's a really cool story to share. I want to talk to you a little bit about the future, what's down the line for you. But before we do that, I want to come back to something you had said, and I connect with.

You said that growing up, for you success looked like either one of two options, to be a professional athlete, you're a tall guy, athletic build, so maybe basketball player. And also maybe because the color of your skin they say you should be a rapper. And I was listening to this in the audience, I'm like, "You know what? There's worse things that people could throw upon you." Maybe you have a different point of view, but I think, "Man, growing up as an Asian kid, what were the two things that are expected of me? Computer software programmer and something else that's not that cool." I mean, to be a professional athlete or world-famous rapper, I get it, stereotypes and pigeonhole, but that's actually an upgrade from where I'm standing. But talk to me about this, tell me about fitting in, or breaking stereotypes and molds, and what does that mean to you?

Vince:

Well, I mean, even though those things are cool, but being a basketball player and a rapper, the percentages and the chances of you succeeding in that space is so small. So, you are now striving for something that is so hard to obtain, and that's the only level or measure of success. This is part of the problem. And so, I grew up as a minority in the West being one of the very few black people at the time, most of the Mauritians were all in Dandenong, completely other side of Melbourne. And people put their projections on me of, "Cool, Michael Jordan is famous, and a lot of the basketball players were black and they were athletes." And I was great at basketball, once again, just in the same, the math and science thing, is because I was good at it, I got pigeonholed, right? I still have people today, I went to the basketball the other week and I posted on Instagram and I had somebody hit me up and said, "That should have been you."

And I was like, "Yeah, just because I was good. People would always say I was going to make it to the NBA." But it's like I only wanted to do that, because I felt like they were the only options available to me, being a rapper or a basketball player. When I told my mom that I was going into the creative space, and when I told her I was going to launch a shoe brand, she was so scared for me, and my dad too. Especially my dad, actually in this case, because I had a job and I was doing well, and there was nobody around me that had a successful shoe brand that was black. And there's very few people that even had a successful business actually, that was black. So, the chance of succeeding is very rare.

There wasn't people that they could look to and say, "Oh, it is possible. And they've done it." Whereas basketballers and rappers, there were so many black people out there, that they're like, "Oh, it is possible." And so, even though it was a cool thing to strive for, I think it's very limiting.

And I remember my son, when I asked him what did he want to be a couple of months back, and he was like, "Ah, I want to be a rapper or a basketball player." It really bothered me, it was like 30 years on. He still has that same perception of what is possible.

And I need to change that. I need to get him thinking about, "Cool, if you want to do that, you want to be a basketball player, rapper, I'm cool with that. But then you are actually building influence. What are you going to do with that influence? Are going to build a business? Are your going to build a community? How do you think beyond that superficialness of going, "This is what's available to me," and build on that?

Chris:

I'm glad that you added to that. I was having fun, but I think you got real deep on me, which is really cool.

What I'm hearing from you is, if we don't see ourselves represented in professional spheres, it's hard for us to think what's possible, and that becomes our self story, and then it becomes your destiny. And it is glamorous, and people who are in that space do really well, but there's so few people on a probability, that it seems like the story that society is telling young black men and women is, "If you can't be this, then there's nothing in between." And that's a sad part of it, and it's quite fascinating for me that you were good at math and science. You're also good at sports and design. It's like, Vince, are there any weaknesses to you? I can't figure this out.

Vince:

We'll have to bring my wife in, she'll have lots to say.

Chris:

That'll be episode two, everybody is thinking for that episode.

Vince:

No. I tend to channel my energy in things that I like to do. And I think because I do that, that's where I excel, right? I'm a terrible speller, everyone jokes about it in the office, almost to the point where I'm dyslexic. But I don't put that much importance in it. For me, it doesn't bother me. I'd rather be focusing on creating an emotional connection with people, or being a better father, a better husband, those things really matter to me, and so I don't let the small things bog me down.

Chris:

And coming back to this thing about you choosing art, which is pretty atypical, and I'll just share my own lived experiences here. For a number of years, I taught at a private art school where the tuition now is $22,000 a semester, so it's outrageous. And what I don't see are a lot of people of color, we see now predominantly Asians, mostly it seems like Chinese and then Korean. And it changes depending on what decade you're in, because of which nation or which country's doing well, financially speaking. But we rarely ever see a black student, we see maybe one or two Latinos, and that's it. And it's a real problem that teachers are trying to understand, but there's only so much that we can do, because of lack of representation, the cost of private art school. And so, it was important to me to have you share your story as a successful black man, building a business, doing something that very few people, who look like you, actually do, and to be able to share that as a source of inspiration.

So now, if you are that person and you're looking towards your future, you can have a different model, a business person, entrepreneur, as a designer, as an artist, or a creative business person, which is who you are. And we need more of this, so that outside of entertainment, there's a whole different kind of profession that's thick weight for you. You've mentioned your son a couple of times, I know you also have a daughter. And I often tell people that becoming a parent changes you, and if it doesn't, you're not doing it. I think having children make me a better person, because I have to be accountable to more than just myself. I'm aware that there's these two sets of eyes looking at me every day and saying, "What are the decisions that I'm making? How am I behaving? How am I holding myself?" And knowing that I could damage them by behaving poorly, or I can actually show them a potential path that's in their future if they wish it. So, tell me a little bit about your relationship, or your responsibility, with not only your son, but your daughter, as well.

Vince:

Yeah, I mean, my kids changed my life. They're my everything. I've always said that I've got, even though Rollie's doing well, I did it to create a better future for my family. So, I can never get pigeonholed where I'm like, "I'm going to focus on building this business, so I can give them a future, but not spend time with them." At the end of the day, they don't necessarily value that, they want to spend time with me. So, I want to give them the tools, and financial freedom is one of them, but it's only one. I want to teach them to actually make their own money. To teach them to strive for things that actually make them happy, so they don't just go into a nine to five that they hate.

I talk a lot about my son, because he fell into the trap that I fell into. Whereas my daughter's very strong headed, absolutely amazing, is so good at sports. Whereas my son's not so good at sports. My daughter, we just have different relationships with both of them. My daughter's very independent, she's the kind of one that just watches and does, as opposed to my son engages in lots of conversation to try to understand, he's always trying to break it down. So, it's beautiful having a boy and a girl. I grew up in a family with four boys, so my mom, she went crazy, because of it. Whereas having a boy and a girl, I never was too fixated on what I had, but I'm so glad I had a girl, because it's a completely different relationship. You need a level of empathy that I haven't had to have had before, to be honest. So, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to empower them, give them the right tools to live their best life, but not project my insecurities, or my vision for them.

Chris:

So, maybe your son is a mirror to your younger self. You're like, "Oh, I see patterns and behavior and thinking that I need to show that there's other ways of thinking about this." And maybe that's the lesson that your children put in front of you.

Whereas your daughter shows you, "Hey, you need to learn different skills, Dad, because I'm not like that same imprint. I have different ways of moving about the world." And then you have to grow and change yourself, as well.

Vince:

Exactly.

Chris:

Well, how old are your children right now?

Vince:

So, they're seven and nine.

Chris:

Oh, still very young.

Vince:

Yeah, still very young. But they've experienced a lot, they've lived in New York, they've lived in the country, they've been in the city, they've been exposed to so many different things. It's really nice to see.

Chris:

No, I think it was Amy who told me this, that you actually have kangaroos on your property, that's the kind of country you live. These are not animals that you're raising, they just roam onto the property?

Vince:

Yeah, exactly. It was funny, because being from Australia, every time I used to travel, people always used to say, "Oh, do you have kangaroos on your property? Or do you see them?"

Like, "Oh, that's so naive. No, they don't just roam around in the city." But actually, now I have a property where they always are, so it's quite hilarious.

Chris:

So, you can't even roll your eyes in anymore, because it literally is happening.

Vince:

Right, exactly. So, now I just invite people over to the country house.

Chris:

I can't imagine what it's like to have a kangaroo just hop on over. Are they aggressive animals?

Vince:

Oh, yeah, you don't want to get too close. Yeah, they're beautiful from afar, but I think every now and then, the alpha one, when you see them, they're massive.

Chris:

Yeah. There's always these images that I'll see on Instagram, kangaroos for some reason are jacked. They're so muscular and they walk around with the arms to the side and they look like they're going to mess you up, so maybe that's a signal just keep your distance.

I want to ask you something, to see how well your children. You said this, and it's important for people to hear this part. It's like, "I'm not here to project what it is that I want on my children. I just want them to be who they're supposed to be." So, look into your crystal ball a little bit, knowing your seven-year-old and your nine-year-old, who are they going to become when they're adults?

Vince:

I think it's a path they're on, I don't think they know the answer to that. I think when I look at their strengths, my son is incredibly empathetic and very creative, so I think he's going to probably be an entrepreneur, is my bet. I mean, seeing his dad being an entrepreneur, he's the kind of guy when we go in the shops, he'll be like, "Dad, can I buy that?" And then he'll go, "Actually, let's just make it, and I'll make two and I'll sell one." He's already thinking like that.

Chris:

He's saying that to you?

Vince:

Yeah, it's crazy.

Chris:

Oh my gosh.

Vince:

So, I like that he's starting his own clothing brand already, he's got a website, and I think he's going to go down that path.

My daughter, I think she's going to probably go into sports, or being a veterinarian. She loves animals, she's got a very kind heart, but very strong. I call her gangster, because she only does what she wants to do. So, I think she's probably going to go in into that space. So, if she gets into the sports mindset, because she's very, very good at sports, I could see her being a pro athlete in anything she wants to do, but in the same token, she might take that empathetic route and put that energy into helping people.

Chris:

So, I said that I wanted to get into the future of where you're heading, and I think it's important to talk about that. We've traveled a lot in the past, the present, and talked about the things that I think are important to who you are, your brand, your company, your ethos. So, I unfortunately didn't have enough time to go visit the store, the flagship store, and there's an experience there. Tell me what your concept is, and then tell me where you see yourself going the next, say, five to 10 years?

Vince:

So, we just opened up a flagship store in Fitzroy, Gertrude Street, which just got named Second Coolest Street, I think, in the world, which is an amazing claim. And the store, my goal was to create a store that I could take into any cultural relevant city around the world, and still be relevant. So, it could live in Japan, it could live in LA, it could live in London, because I've traveled so much, that was the bar that I set for myself. And I really think we've achieved that, we've delivered a space that is not just about selling shoes.

And my commitment, what we did is we dedicated 50% of the space to a digital gallery. It's the biggest digital gallery in the Southern Hemisphere in a retail space. It's got 17 screens, we're featuring 150 art pieces from 50 artists around the world, digital artists. I meet so many people that talk about what they're trying to do, and not many people are actually following through. So, in this case, by dedicating 50% of the space to a digital gallery, it holds us accountable to actually delivering experience at all times.

And so, it's not just a, "Ah, cool, we'll create a campaign around it." It's like, "No, we have a digital gallery. We need to create community events." Look, it's challenging to do with a small company, but it's been super rewarding. And we've had people come in and they can experience the brand, and they can leave the store without buying a shoe, but still feel like they've taken something with them, and that was really important.

We had a lot of people come in, they're like, "Wow, I feel like I've just stepped into the future." Or they've come in and they've learned about an artist that they didn't know about. Or it's a digital gallery, which is also going to be connected to NFTs, and a lot of them are NFT artists. And for now, a lot of people think NFTs are directly linked to monkeys, apes. And it's like we're trying to break that stereotype, once again. And maybe that's a chip on my shoulder, trying to constantly break stereotypes, but I think for me, it's about creating new conversation with people at all times and constantly trying to add value.

Chris:

So, it's an interesting path that you've been on, in terms of your initial thought that you were going to be a graphic designer, and bringing art and industrial design, and experience design, bringing it all under one roof, it feels like it's an expression of just your creative being. So, 50% of the space is the gallery, so that must mean that 50% of you is a curator of art, a person who admires and appreciates things of beauty. And I assume then you're inviting people to exhibit and share their work in the space.

Vince:

Yes, absolutely.

Chris:

And what has been the response? Do people come there to buy the art, or just to appreciate and experience it?

Vince:

There's a good mix of people. There's people that are diehard Rollie fans that are coming in to buy, and then go, "Oh, wow, this is incredible." And a lot of them are not overly surprised, because they're used to being surprised and delighted by us, they don't know what it's going to be. But so that's been nice, there's a lot of people coming just for the art and then learning the brand through that.

But we just invite people to come in and experience it however way they want. Like I said, even when I started the brand, All I want you to stop and have a look at it and be like, "is this for me?" When we did trade shows in the States, we won Best New Exhibit Award, and we won three design awards for our booth designs, we went over the top. But it was cool, because for me, imagine being at a trade show with 10,000 other brands, all I want you to do is stop, look at the brand and go, "Is it for me?" That's it. And if you don't, you can walk on and be like, "Oh, that was really cool." Once again, they take that feeling with them, and I get people talking about our designs that we used to do at these trade shows, all the time. So, I guess it's an ethos, a design ethos, that I've had since day one.

Chris:

It's a good blueprint for anti-sales, anti-marketing. "Hey, just stop for a second. Take a look. You don't need to do anything." Because if you've done your job at that point, then the shoe or the gallery experience will sell itself. The work comes up to that moment, and then it's up to each individual.

And people have told me like, "Hey, next time you come, you got to go and visit it, because it's an experience. And to be able to step in there and stop and look." And whether you purchase anything or not, that's entirely up to you, but I think you've done your job at that point. Right?

Vince:

Exactly, for sure. Later on, if people don't purchase there, they can go online later if they feel like it's right for them, if not, we've just done our job. Like I said, we're an experience brand and that's what we're delivering.

Chris:

I think you mentioned this in one of our conversations, where the future of your shoe might be, and the brand might be, token gated, I don't want to get into too much NFT talk, but are ready to tell us what that's all about?

Vince:

Yeah, we can talk bits about it, absolutely. I mean, I'm trying to blur the online offline experience. I just think brands just need to communicate in any way where customers are. And those two worlds are going to live together, even more than they do today. And I think, this is where when we talk about a gallery, it's not an art gallery, it's a digital gallery. So, we're already bringing that, and it doesn't feel off. You go in there and you're like, "Oh wow, this art is absolutely incredible." And you're no longer thinking, "Oh, this is just digital art." You're in there and you're just experiencing art as it is.

And so, I think token gating, what we'd love to do is people to come in, buy a pair of shoes, get an NFT, and their NFT gets them access to future drops. So, they get access to all our future collaborations. They might get special loyalty access to events, or certain discounts. Or we might invite them, we just had an event, I think last month, where some of our top tier people who won a prize get to come in and see the new collection, and give some input into what will be in the next season's collection.

So, I just think the tokenism allows you to give that out, and allow the customers to actually build equity in their NFT, because they can sell it if they want to. So, you can imagine if Nike today, had an NFT program, and Nike, feel free to take this if you want, but if you had that NFT because you bought a particular drop, you have access to every single off-white release that came out through that top 10 Nike. That would be worth so much money, and the customers who have it would be absolute brand advocates, because it gave them access to something.

So, I think NFTs and token gating will open up a completely new way to interact with customers. The problem is, like the internet when it first came out, is it's got a bit of a stigma to it. People thought that phone calls were better than email, and the emails would never take off. Nobody thought that there'd be a computer on every single person's desk, let alone in their pocket now. So, we are just on that same path, NFTs will not always be Facebook profile picks, right? It's going to move beyond that. So, I'm fascinated by that, but I think it's about taking people on a journey. It's such a big barrier to entry, and that's why we're starting with a digital gallery. We're doing our first digital shoe release actually, early next year. That's just to test and pilot it, but we plan to do a lot more in the next two to three years.

Chris:

Sounds very exciting. Somebody explained this to me, because especially right now with FTX, I think in all the scandals that are going on, people losing a lot of money. And where there's a lot of risk, there's potential for a lot of gain, but people cry after the fact, because none of these things are bulletproof, or as we're discovering, people don't even do their due diligence before they throw money at stuff.

But I believe blockchain, blockchain transactions and purchases, are a great way to make sure that you have providence over things, and it's kind of a cool thing. Somebody explained this to me before where, if you're a reputable brand, you have a real business and you integrate NFTs into in a smart way that deliver value to the customer, it's not a scam. The problem is there's a lot of people diving in based on speculation and just grabbing dumb money. They have no company, they have no entrepreneurial skills, they have nothing of real utility, they're just selling hype on top of hype.

But when you do this the right way, what I think is fascinating is this, is if I were to buy a pair of shoe from you, theoretically our relationship begins and it ends, and that's it, right? I gave you money, you gave me the shoe. If you live up to the promise, everything's cool. And I feel like I'm part of the group. But if you sell me an NFT that's a part of the shoe, you as the business owner have to find ways to continue to give me value over time. So, the relationship is way longer lasting. In your example with Nike as you get exclusive first access to collaborations with brands that you know and love, that means that Nike has to stay up late at night thinking, "And what are we going to do for phase two? Phase three? Phase four?" So, that over time this thing has value, and the more valuable it becomes, the more likely it is that people will continue to support what it is that they're doing in the NFT metaverse space, right?

Vince:

Yeah, exactly. And I think for the first time, it's a win-win. So, the customer is incentivized to actually build the value in that NFT, because if they do, the value of that NFT goes up and they have the ability to unsell it. That's a difference between the current loyalty programs can't unsell your current loyalty points. So, if you get all these points, you can't really unsell that. Where from an NFT, you can have somebody going around and absolutely plugging it and talking about how they've access to this product and wearing it, and it really becomes a thing that connects to culture, then people are going to want to have access to that. So, the whole supply and demand, if you're not releasing, if you've only released a certain amount of those NFTs, and you constantly are providing value, and the people who have them, who hold them, absolutely love them, the value's going to go up. And so, that's where you start to create the customer and the brand, are both creating value for each other. That's fascinating.

Chris:

Yeah, that's a really good example about loyalty programs. I think loyalty programs are actually the opposite of what it sounds like. They're making sure you're loyal to them, not them being loyal to you, because you're pressured like, "Oh, your points are going to expire, and if you don't renew this card, you'll lose your points." And that's not loyalty, that's you trying to get me to spend more money.

Whereas this is the opposite, where it's like, "How else can you as a brand deliver more value to me? I'm being loyal to you because you've supported us." And I think there's a big shift there, when it's done properly.

Vince:

Yeah, for sure. And like I said, if they become the brand advocates, then the brands end up winning also. So, yeah, it's a nice full story.

Chris:

It's mutually beneficial.

Vince:

Exactly.

Chris:

Well, Vince, I appreciate your time talking to me today, and also stepping into the professional booth. Vince, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that I haven't had a chance to ask you yet?

Vince:

I don't know, just thank you so much for the opportunity, I really appreciate it. I love the work that you do, and you're a huge inspiration to a lot of people. Like we said, I mean, there's a lot of kids that can look at you and be like, "There's a path for me." And I'm trying to do the same thing, and I appreciate you giving me the platform.

Chris:

Well, thank you very much. I recognized that in you immediately, and just knew we had to do something together. I just appreciate the ability to have you on the show so that you can inspire other people. And I just think, look, you're some kind of prodigy, but you don't have to be a prodigy to achieve the things you've achieved. But I think of a very stoic cool sense about you and how objective you are with things, and when I see and meet people like that, it's a thing to take note of and to admire and say, "Look, what else am I doing? Let's reflect and how can I be more like that and get into alignment with who I'm supposed to be?" So, I wish that for every single person, it doesn't matter what shape, size, or color you are, your pursuit should be about making yourself happy, because when you're happy, other people around you are happy and the world could use a little bit more happiness.

Vince:

Exactly. But if people want to follow me or reach out to me, my Instagram is Vince_Lebon. So, yeah, reach out, if I can help in any way, I would love to.

Chris:

Okay. You may have accidentally opened the floodgates to your DMs, but we'll see what happens. "Yeah, Chris, what did I do? I regret saying it." So, Vince_Lebon, that's on Instagram, right?

Vince:

Yeah, that's right.

Chris:

And where can I find more information about Rollie Nation?

Vince:

So, it's at RollieNation on Instagram, and it's rollienation.com online. So, yeah, you can hit either of those places up and check out the brand, I'd appreciate it. See if it's for you.

Chris:

Yeah, and wherever you see it's worth you stopping and checking it out, if nothing more.

Thank you very much, Vince.

Vince:

Thanks Chris. Appreciate it.

My name's Vince Lebon and you're listening to The Futur.

Greg:

Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app, and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do, and produced by me, Greg Gunn.

Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sandborn for our intro music.

If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reading and reviewing our show on Apple Podcasts. It'll help us grow the show, and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode.

If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business.

Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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