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Dallas Taylor

When you hear the term sound design, you might think of fight sequences from action films. Like a fist landing on someone’s face, the cocking of a shotgun or even a building exploding into a giant ball of fire.

The Business of Sound Design
The Business of Sound Design

The Business of Sound Design

Ep
115
Jan
06
With
Dallas Taylor
Or Listen On:

The Business of Sound Design

When you hear the term sound design, you might think of fight sequences from action films. Like a fist landing on someone’s face, the cocking of a shotgun or even a building exploding into a giant ball of fire.

But you probably don’t think about the subtle atmospheric sound design that permeates your screen. The icy wind underscoring an arctic journey. The ambient noise of a crowded outdoor market unique to Bangkok.

Great sound design often goes unnoticed. It takes you out of your seat and submerges you into the story. Adding a new invisible ingredient to the experience.

Our guest in this episode is Dallas Taylor. You may know him as the host and creator of Twenty Thousand Hertz, a lovingly crafted podcast revealing the stories behind the world’s most recognizable and interesting sounds. He’s also the Creative Director of Defacto Sound, where he has led thousands of high-profile projects ranging from blockbuster trailers and advertising campaigns to Sundance award-winning films and major television series.

In this unique episode, Dallas talks about why sound is just as important as your other senses. Because if you care about the taste of your food or the smell of a room, then you should care about sound just as much.

He and Chris also discuss the business side of working in sound and what it takes to make a living doing so. The storytelling, sonic branding and how to get clients excited to work with you on the first call.

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Episode Transcript

Dallas:
I'm a firm believer that peak creativity comes in some sort of box or some sort of rules and how far you can stretch it out. But I always encouraged people to like flip things around.

Greg:
Welcome to The Futur Podcast, a show that explores the interesting overlap between creativity, business, and personal development. I'm Greg Gunn. When you hear the term sound design, you might think of fight sequences from action films, like a fist landing on someone's face, the cocking of a shotgun, or even a building exploding into a giant ball of fire. But you probably don't think about the subtle atmospheric sound design that permeates your screen, the icy wind underscoring and arctic journey, the ambient noise of a crowded outdoor market, unique to Bangkok.

You see great sound design often goes unnoticed. It takes you out of your seat and submerges you into the story, adding a new invisible ingredient to the experience. Today's guest is a sound designer and an acclaimed podcaster, and he's on a mission to get people to curate the sounds in their life. In fact, you might have heard of his Ted partner podcast, Twenty Thousand Hertz. In this unique episode, our guest talks about why sound is just as important as all your other senses, because if you care about the taste of your food or the smell of a room, then you should care about sound just as much. He and Chris discussed the business side of working in sound and what it takes to make a living doing so. The storytelling, sonic branding, and how to get clients excited to work with you on the very first call. Now I wouldn't call myself an audio file by any stretch, but I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this and I hope you do too. Please enjoy our wonderful conversation with Dallas Taylor.

Chris:
First of all, thanks for doing this with me. I did go through a bunch of the links that you sent over, and this is awesome because I feel like I'm talking to another person from my past, like in the old days when we did advertising and worked with sound designers and composers like yourself. So for people who don't know, we're going to be taking a little detour today. Now it seems weird that we'll be saying this on a podcast, but a lot of the people that I talk to are visual people, they create things that you see. But today's a little different, we're on a podcast, so it's very appropriate to talk to somebody who spends their life listening to sounds. And so Dallas, do you mind, can you introduce yourself and tell people a little bit about what you do?

Dallas:
Sure. So I'm Dallas Taylor. I am a sound designer. I own a company called Defacto Sound and we do trailers for companies like HBO and Netflix and video game companies. We do big car sports and ads for anything that's fun and sound designy. And then we also have a podcast that's called Twenty Thousand Hertz, that's affiliated with Ted, the Ted talks people.

Chris:
I didn't know it was affiliated with Ted.

Dallas:
It is. Yeah.

Chris:
Tell me more about that.

Dallas:
So I started the podcast about five years ago. It was something that had been rattling around my brain for probably three years prior to that. I was really inspired by Radiolab 99% Invisible, This American Life.

Chris:
Same here. Oh my God. You're saying the same things.

Dallas:
Yes.

Chris:
Go on.

Dallas:
And so I know Roman Mars from years ago. As soon as he put the show out, I was a really early adopter. I think I found out about 99 PI through Radiolab, which I also listened to since the very beginning. And early on Roman covered a lot of stories that were in the sound realm. And so I just found myself, I mean, I would listen to every episode, but then it came to the point where the second I knew there was a sound show on 99 or at least a sound topic on 99 PI, it was like drop everything and listen to it. And then over the years, 99 PI kind of crystallized even more into the whole idea of reading the plaque and kind of the designed world visually. They still occasionally will do sound shows, but it's few and far in between.

Dallas:
And so over the years of 99 PI kind of changing and adapting I felt there was space there for a sound podcast that was crafted at that same level but it was all based off of the sound. And so they're all about visual designed by humans, whereas sound can kind of go, we definitely cover a lot of human design sounds, but then we get into a lot of neuroscience, and science, and space, and nature, and all kinds of stuff. And so kind of with Roman's blessing, I don't think he ever really gave a blessing, but he did give a hardy nod, I decided to kind of pick up that topic and take the ball and run with it.

Dallas:
And so it took us a year to make our first two episodes, which in hindsight they're okay. A lot of people have heard them. The first one was the voice of Siri, the Apple original voice, and the second one was all about the NBC chimes and the whole history behind that. But yeah, that kind of was born out of a passion project from the sound design studio.

Chris:
So how does this become a part affiliated with Ted?

Dallas:
So we published, let's see, the week of the election in 2016. We've been fiercely nonpolitical since then. And I treat it very much like an escape. Three and a half years went by independent. We've had a lot of traction on through other podcasts and NPR, and Press, and all that. And eventually, I guess it got the attention of Ted who is kind of building out their slate a little bit more. They have things like the Ted Radio Hour, that's affiliated with NPR. They put out Ted talks, Ted talks daily. They have things Pin Drop, and Checking In, and all of these other shows, but they were starting to bring on not originals, they were starting to bring on independent shows that kind of met their criteria of technology, entertainment and design.

Dallas:
And they kind of caught wind of Twenty Thousand Hertz, I guess, that they had been listening for a while. And as soon as they reached out, it seems like a really natural fit for our show. I'd been talking to all kinds of networks and there were multiple network offers beforehand, but they all kind of started the conversation with, "We'll sell your ads." And I'm, "Okay, and what else?" And he's like, "We'll sell your ads." And I'm, "Well, I'm already selling my ads." So coming out of the advertising world or working actively in the advertising world I was kind of in the unique position where I'm not only the host of a show, but I also am capable of navigating that world.

Dallas:
But Ted came along and they were the first network that came along and said, "We really love your mission, which is to get the rest of the normal people into sound and curate sound like they do their other human senses." And it felt really natural. They were very mission-based right off the bat. And that appealed to me, the fact that our show is just so technology, entertainment and design oriented made a lot of sense. And so then we started. We were working this out in March and April, and then we announced our first episode under the Ted banner on August 1st.

Chris:
What episode number was that?

Dallas:
100. And it was all about...

Chris:
Okay, that works.

Dallas:
It was about the Netflix sound that they have never told the story about. And so it took us a year to navigate the right people, and sound designers, and brand managers, to kind of get to the people who were on the front lines of that.

Chris:
Okay. Now, as a fellow podcaster, before I geek out on all the things underneath what you just said, I want to kind of pull us back a little bit, because although that's kind of where this conversation began, I was just curious about the overlap in advertising. So as a kind of our might cross here, I started my motion design firm in 1995 and had been actively working with ad agencies, making commercials up until about a couple of years ago. Now, I'm a little curious because I've seen this happen to my friends who are very talented working composers and just that it's a race to the bottom. I don't know how else to say it. People are preferring needle drop or just, or working with superstars, and then the composer who writes original music, that market seems to be kind of nearly gone as far as I can tell. And I wanted to ask, what was your take on that, and also then to draw the distinction between sound design versus music composition?

Dallas:
We definitely think the opposite as far as a race to the top, when I'm thinking about where we're going. But I hear you on composition in some elements of design, but there's always a market there. It's just that I don't know, the more I kind of get into this high end stuff, I realize how many more high-end places there are. So to kind of give a little bit of a difference between what we do and what composers do, the thing with music is it's so human and so many people can inherently make music. Not everyone does it well, but it is something that's very human and very natural to humans.

Dallas:
So when people get into the sound world, generally, when I went to recording school, it was 98% of the class all wanted to do hip hop or rock music or something. And then you kind of then find a small fraction of that, that want to compose for TV or games or films and stuff. Now out of that, it's just the tiny itty bitty fraction of those people actually are even aware that there's this whole other world of sound design that is all that gray area between music, the world, and dialogue. And so a lot of people don't think to go down that path, but it's something that every piece of content, at least anything that's of decent size needs that sort of thing to actually sell well. And I just fell in love with it early on.

Dallas:
I had started as a trumpet player through high school and college and stuff and that's what I thought I was going to do. Eventually in college, struggled with performance anxiety, and it kind of crushed all of my trumpet dreams. And then I went to recording school, kind of saw that everyone wanted to do music, and that's why I went there. And then very quickly realized, I don't think I'm going to be able to make a living doing this. And then eventually kind of found, or actually very quickly found sound for TV and film, and then kind of the rest is history. I got a job here and then it just kind of slowly moved its way kind of around from coast to coast. I worked at Fox, and G4, and NBC. My last job before starting Defacto was as a sound designer at the Discovery Channel and all their networks. And then 11 years ago started Defacto.

Chris:
And are you on the West Coast?

Dallas:
I'm kind of all over the place. What does location even mean nowadays? So I've lived in Arkansas, Texas, Tennessee, LA, DC, just kind of all over.

Chris:
Okay. So there's a bunch of things, again, I had to kind of unravel and unpack for our audience because they may be hearing the word sound designer for the first time. And so let's just kind of expand on that, so that we're all talking about the same thing. Is it the way it sounds? What does the sound designer do?

Dallas:
So there's kind of two lanes here. There's sound design and there's mix. And so we're going to cut mix out of that for a little while and just think about sound design for a second. The things that are usually provided are dialogue from the set. So if you have any sort of set audio, the vast, 99% of the priority is to get the dialogue clean. Everything else can be rebuilt with a company like ours.

Chris:
Right.

Dallas:
And then with music, that's something that can be provided through a music library or through a composer. So everything in between those, everything else that you hear is sound design. And so it can be as overt as say, [inaudible 00:13:37] in trailers, these big Han Zimmer type of hits, or symbol scrape, if something's erie or a bode symbol, or a reverse riser that kind of builds tension. Those are emotional sound effects. And so we use those a lot. The sun will come up and we'll put a very subtle glimmer with that. But then there's other aspects of sound design. There's Foley, those are the things that you touch with your hands or your feet generally, or your cloth. So when you record that it's really a performance unto itself because you can really get that funky. But you could be too aggressive or not aggressive enough, but you really tying the reality of the screen to the audience's brain. And so we have emotional effects, we have, which is kind of the gray area between music and sound design or sound effects. Then we have foley, which is hands, feet, sink things that you perform.

Dallas:
We also have ambiances, and those are the things that are like wind or things that tie a scene together. And the interesting thing is you may think that wind or environments are difficult to, or sorry, not difficult, but are easy things to kind of pick a wind and put it in. But even when we're picking winds, or city noises, or kind of whatever the environment is, we're still trying to support whatever the story is. If it's eerie in a way we can make even the natural world sound erie without you knowing it. And if it's very happy we can make it sound very harmonic, even in the wind. And so we think about story even when we're building out the world.

Dallas:
And then the last category of sound design is hard effects. And these are generally things that you've either recorded before, or it's something that you can kind of build out with an existing library. So things like explosions, or a door slam, or a door shut, a lot of things that we've kind of already pre built, that we can kind of massage a little bit out of a giant library. And so those are generally the four categories of sound design. And then you couple that with dialogue, you couple that maybe with narration, you couple that with music, and then you start to get into a mix situation where it's how do you craft every millisecond to be just as clear as possible?

Chris:
That was an excellent, excellent overview. So if there's a young person out there who's listening to this, is intrigued by this, they just got the high level overview of what it takes to be the industry in terms of sound. And I love the, the nuance in which you break everything down. And I'm going to say this part, if this doesn't work out, we'll edit this out. But, okay, so you just said that there are such things as happy, melodic, or harmonics wind sounds and some eerie sound effects, so I'd love to hear a little bit of what that sounds like.

Dallas:
Right. So think about being, I don't know, on a mountain. It's a cold snow packed mountain, they're at the top. We do a lot of trailers. So usually when we are on a snow capped mountains, somebody in peril and it's like drama. And so we're usually trying to pick things that are very tonal and very aggressive. And so they're fighting through the elements to do something at the height of a mountain. And so we're looking for things that sound kind of like this [inaudible 00:17:15]. That kind of stuff. And that was just my mouth.

Chris:
You're very good.

Dallas:
And so we're trying to get this whistle and we're trying to just get this, that's uneasy and it feels cold, especially if you have any sort of synesthesia or any of that stuff. I got a little tingle thinking about that and I got a little chili. I think I might have a little bit of synesthesia. I don't know, that's where one sense kind of bleeds into another sense. But maybe they're in a mountain and it's just this gorgeous, I don't know, we're hiking Mount Rainier. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful day outside and we just want it to feel open and inviting. And in those cases we might slow everything down, maybe have some whisp, but it's a little bit more like a little nip in the air. So something like [inaudible 00:18:08]. And maybe really light.

Dallas:
So that's just with wind, we can frame how intense something is. I mean, sound is just a big magic trick. It's just slight of hand or slight of ear. We're always just kind of trying to divert your attention to what's happening on screen. And people say this all the time, sound is one of the things you never think about. But that's great, especially when you're trying to do a big grand magic trick where everyone really thinks about what they see and they don't think much about what they're hearing.

Chris:
Right. Now, when you were doing that, oddly enough, we're just listening or talking to one another and the two different sound effects that you made conjured up a visual right in my mind. And one made me feel a little chillier. It's like, there's something about that, I can visualize the little bits of snow that are being picked up and just being swirled about, right? So I got that feeling. And a lot of people don't realize this, but a lot of the emotion, the drama, whatever it is you're feeling, the happy moments, the super sad tearful moments, if you just turn down the volume, you lose almost all of it.

Chris:
So this one thing that I tell my kids, I have two boys, if there's an action scene and it's getting a little bit too much for them, I say, "All you to do is just plug your ears. You'll see what happens." And they do that. And that's how they are able to regulate at least when they were younger, "Oh, okay. It's just like that." And famously George Lucas says, "People don't come for the picture, they come to hear the sounds and that's pretty much what they come for." And it's one of the things that I figured out that the difference between an independent film and a Hollywood film is a lot into the sound, just the soundscape that's created, and then you can tell that it's a low budget film, or that's a high budget film, generally speaking.

Dallas:
And as sound designers, we're picking up on everything we're seeing on screen. And not only what's on screen, as long as we're thinking about how do we just eliminate the for the box that you're looking into? Because with all of this stuff, we're just looking at a big window frame, essentially.

Chris:
Right.

Dallas:
But when you think of movies you love or television shows that you love, and you recall those scenes that are just so epic, generally, you kind of forget about the framing because your mind has kind of melded with that. I mean, unless you're in the industry and you may think about the framing. But generally if you're not, you kind of forget about it and your mind is melded with this story. And so we're picking up on even how the image is colored, the framing of things, I forgot what you call it, if something's short, stopped, I forgot what you call it when a character's on the far right third, but they're looking outward. It's like a dissonant image.

Dallas:
So we're looking, we're trying to pick up all these cues to support those, to where people don't really realize what we're doing, but really we're trying to erase those four boundaries in these stories by kind of coming out. I mean, it is a physical medium, it's the only thing that's really effecting our human body, besides the photons coming out of the screen.

Chris:
Right, right.

Dallas:
But it's coming out, it's actually vibrating us. Especially if it's midnight and you hear big sub drops and stuff and you have neighbors, you definitely feel that. So we're just trying to erase that border.

Chris:
Okay. I want to talk about the thing that you had mentioned. Okay, I said race to the bottom, you said, no, it's a race to the top. What does that mean and can you dive into that?

Dallas:
I think it's easy to think that most people or all people out there are budget minded, or the budget is what makes the determination for whether or not they work with you. And what I found is it has a lot more to do with trust and I don't know, respect for craft, than it does necessarily has for budget. And I think we've all depending on where you are in your career been surprised by things that might be higher budget than you might think. And then if you start to tap into these super high-end advertising things, it becomes shockingly high sometimes with that, not everything.

Dallas:
But generally I found that people take you more seriously when they pay you appropriately. Those are the best jobs because people really, when they're actually pulling money out of their pocket they get things done very, I don't know, just much easier. They have a lot more respect. But I guess, I don't know. I just don't have any desire to do this if I'm scraping at the bottom. I'd rather just go be an electrician or something. For me, I just want to make sure that I can pay the team, I can support my family and I don't know, in my world, in the sound world, I just think it's so untapped with how much we can do. I'll kind of tell a sideway story.

Chris:
Okay.

Dallas:
So when you push, we're going to talk about workflow, when you push everything through the same sausage maker of workflow, so this sausage maker that I usually work in is say advertising or a trailer, a documentary or something, but it always starts with kind of the idea, then it goes to a script, and then it goes to pre-production, and then it goes to production, and then it goes to editing, and then it goes to sound, and then it goes to, or maybe music was somewhere in there, then it goes to sound and color at the same time, and then it ends. So when you push all that through the exact same sausage maker, what you do is when we're trying to sell these ideas to clients or creatives there was no room in any of that place for sound designed to actually have an impactful situation or impactful thing. Because when you're trying to get a higher ups to approve something, the easiest way to cover your soundtrack is just by dropping a track of music in it, smothering it with dialogue to where it always keeps your attention, and then send it along, and then eventually kind of get to sound design. And then it's just, "Oh my goodness, we don't have much to do here."

Dallas:
So I'm always encouraging people to take that entire workflow and move it around, because even just changing the way that the box is, I'm a firm believer that peak creativity comes in some sort of box or some sort of rules and how far you can stretch it out. But I always encourage people to flip things around. So a good example of this is we did this Nike commercial for Widen Kennedy. And I remember, and sometimes this happens, it's one out of every 15 jobs. And I'm listening for this phrase. When they say, "Sound design will make or break this spot." And I'm, "Okay, awesome." And I'll get a treatment. I might get a script and they'll say, "We want to bring you on. Sound design will make or break this. We don't even want to have music sometimes." And then they're, "Okay, peace out. I'll see you in three months after we shoot it." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, hold on, hold on. If sound design is going to make or break this, we need to do the spot right now."

Dallas:
And so with them, we did this thing it was for Kawhi Leonard, who's a basketball player. And it was two kids debating if he was playing himself in basketball. His offense against his defense who would win? And so it was this back and forth debate. And I remember going, "This would be so much fun to just build out three versions right now and send it to White and Kennedy before they shoot anything. And so I convinced him that I said, "Get your copywriters to actually perform it. Just pull up, do the voice memos on your phone and a performance. Just send us all the raw files and we'll build it out now, because it's a short spot." And so we did, and we had kind of the copywriters doing the back and forth. We built out this whole ticking clock idea. We were able to kind of like explore kind of unique sound design and panning and kind of unique sounds because we didn't have music kind of taking up a lot of sonic room.

Dallas:
Then they went and so they kind of approved the sound before it ever went to shoot, and then when they went to shoot, they had the soundtrack right there. So the actors knew exactly what the pace needed to be in order to fit all of this in 45 seconds, so they could reference that. The cinematographer knew the exact pace of everything. So they knew kind of how to move and how to frame, because they kind of could hear it all. And the editor just had a blueprint before anyone ever shot a single frame. And so that's kind of an example. And the interesting thing is the end of that process sounds it's 98% exactly the same as what we did before we ever shot it, before they ever shot it. And we have that on our website too. But it was this fun thing where just, if you start taking that sausage maker, that workflow idea and turning it on its head, if you're writing for sound and the scripting phase, that's where sound design magic really happens. It's not when we're trying to shoe horn it in at the end.

Chris:
I think those are the best kinds of projects. And why don't we have a listen to that right now?

Speaker 4:
Gentlemen, the Kawhi question, offensive or defensive genius? Offense, you may proceed.

Speaker 5:
Thank you. Contention one is Kawhi gets buckets. The evidence substantiates a domination of all realms, [inaudible 00:27:23], that gets off the dribbles, federal game winners. Contention check the points and check the points again.

Speaker 4:
Defense the floor is yours.

Speaker 6:
Contrary to the offensive rhetoric, it's a quiet storm locked down D the towers supreme. He has led the league in steals and defensive ratings. Kawhi is like a supernova black hole, a shutdown corner, or a game altering paradigm shift that silence the entire team.

Speaker 5:
But the manager [inaudible 00:27:45].

Speaker 6:
But he has more steals than fouls.

Speaker 5:
But it's the threes that he makes that make the coaches think he wants [inaudible 00:27:49]

Speaker 6:
He's the reigning two time defensive player of the year.

Speaker 5:
But his dunks though.

Speaker 6:
He's everywhere on the court.

Speaker 5:
But his dunks though. [crosstalk 00:27:59].

Speaker 4:
Gentlemen, gentlemen, consider a hypothetical question. Could Kawhi get buckets on Kawhi?

Speaker 6:
Of course he can get buckets on Kawhi.

Speaker 5:
No he can not. [crosstalk 00:28:08].

Chris:
I did see that by the way. So it was fascinating process. So I'm curious though, since we're talking about working with clients who decide who they want to work with, when it came to composers, a lot of times they would ask, especially on big campaigns, composers to demo music and determine based on how inspired they were by the music they heard, if they would hire that composer or not. With sound design it seems it's a very different process. So can you take us through what it is for you to work with a potential client and what they asked you to do and your approach to it?

Dallas:
Sure. I don't love the demo approach, even though that is something that happens in Sonic Branding, which is something that we do, when you're actually trying to make a accompany audio signature, and even in our case, we would not do that just for a pitch, because that is an incredibly detailed months long process of learning about the company and putting those values into this few seconds of sound. But generally when we're thinking about something that's really high-end, so there's a lot of mixing that just it kind of goes through the same sausage maker and we mix it, the editor does some of the sound design, we might replace some of it. So that's pretty straightforward.

Dallas:
But with something that might be more intense, so we did like the entire Ford Bronco relaunch campaign. That was something where they came to us and they said, "Well, this vehicle has not been in production for a decade." I can't remember when the last Bronco was before this. And so, "But it's going to be important because we're going to be out in the desert, we're flying around. We're not even using," I don't even think they used a Bronco out there. I think it was one of those cars in advertising that has all the... It's just a shell and it has white dots on it.

Chris:
Oh, yeah. The one you talked about.

Dallas:
And so we didn't even see the vehicle in the edit because that was all being the visual effects team put that on there. That's a shocking thing to me by the way. When you see car commercials on TV, a lot of times the car is not even there, it's like a shell of a car with a bunch of VFX dots or something on it. And then they put that on there. So that was the case in here. But the concern that we had was, well, how do we get these engine sounds? With other car spots, we can usually find really high quality recordings or get recordings of maybe the year before model. And we look at the specs and we see has the engine changed or anything? With this, there was no prior model.

Dallas:
And so we had to work directly with Ford. It's really trying to solve these problems ahead of time. We had to work with Ford to get them to record it. It was under these mega NDAs and luckily had kind of an open door thing. And for us, we were just, okay, we can't physically be with the car, but what we need for you to just tear this car apart to make it sound great. So just slam on the gas on a dyno, which is the thing you put your car wheels on to where you don't go anywhere.

Chris:
Like car treadmill?

Dallas:
Yeah. It's like a car treadmill. And and I think they also had a track too, so they could go do that as well.

Chris:
I see.

Dallas:
So it's a lot of solving problems ahead of time. And then we get kind of a bank of just a ton of random car sounds. And then it's us kind of finding them, seeing what has the most energy. We might need to do some processing because really in vehicle or car spots, it's that the voice of the car is the engine. And so we want to make sure that we get that right. And so we spend a lot of time kind of crafting every nuance of how the car moves. If they make a sudden left turn, all the little things that'll happen to the car we want to make sure that that sounds great.

Dallas:
But we're also coloring the entire piece with those emotional sound design moments because we know what we want the viewer to be feeling, and so we will kind of enhance these sounds and add these emotional type of sounds to kind of evoke a feeling along the way. And that's just really for car spots, and then kind of along the way we're going back and forth and we're sending screeners to all these people who will say they love it, or why don't we change this or whatnot? So that's just with that. Something like sports, we are just trying to make everything hyper real. Your ear is one inch away from every single piece of action, which doesn't sound the same when you're watching a basketball game or something. But when you're hearing a basketball spot, it's just so vivid and in your face. And that's kind of an American style in general.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). The bounce of the ball against the hard floors and the squeak of the sneakers and all, somebody breathing heavily, the fabric kind of rustling up against somebody spotty, right?

Dallas:
And we never want you to realize that we're affecting those things a little bit, but we are taking these raw sounds and sweetening them for lack of a better term, where we might have more mids and more lows. If someone's just dribbling, for example, we might have more low end hit than what you'd hear in reality. But we don't ever really want to kind of cross the line of the viewer now going, Ooh, this sounds all fake. But thankfully for the past, I don't know, 50 years of movie making, thanks to kind of Star Wars and everything beyond that, the whole American style of sound design is this hyper real, hyper close mic, sweetened view of the world.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, I watch films and I pay attention to a lot of things that are going on. And oftentimes I'm thinking to myself as I'm enjoying the moment, I'm not totally broken from the moment, but I think that's not really what that sounds like. There's a growl of an animal in there and it's a machine. There's somebody who's layered in a hundred different sound effects. But I don't mind it. I'm totally okay with that. Is it your philosophy then to not to bring in other sounds that are not natural to that thing or is it?

Dallas:
We definitely do that.

Chris:
Okay. You do.

Dallas:
I'm sure we have some lion growls and stuff in that Bronco spot. Those things just work really well with cars. And especially when you're trying to give cars a voice and you're trying to get some sort of human emotion with a machine, it's great to bring in, especially sounds that our kind of primitive brain interprets as aggressive. And so one of the most popular things it's the tie fighters in Star Wars is an added elephant, kind of doing the bellow elephant thing. So that's kind of what makes that characteristic of that ship as it's flying by you. And it sounds scary.

Dallas:
When we're doing stuff like car spots and especially when cars are going by, we'll definitely add these [inaudible 00:35:00], these guttural, if you ever heard a lion growl, it just sounds amazing. And it just brings so much life to it. And again, it's so hidden, even though if you heard the lion growl separate, you would very clearly hear. It's one of those cross-eyed puzzle things, once you hear exactly the source material, it's very easy to pick up on hearing that in the final product. But Oh yeah, we do that all the time.

Greg:
And here's how that Ford Bronco project turned out.

Speaker 7:
There's still some wild out there. You just have to look for it, you have to look for it. You need something that's just as wild as the wild. You need something that can look adventure in the eye, give it a firm handshake. Something built with the toughness of an F series and the spirit of a Mustang. You need a Bronco built as wild as what you're looking for.

Greg:
Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back with more from Dallas. We'll come back to our conversation with Dallas Taylor.

Chris:
The question that I really want to know from you is that with the Bronco people was it a single bid situation or were they talking to a couple of people? And what did you do if it was a competitive situation to get them to feel like, yep, I trust you, you're the right team, you go do this?

Dallas:
Yeah, I think it was the director that brought us on somebody that we'd worked with before, but that never means that you're going to necessarily get the job. As far as when you're actually negotiating with a client, my tendency, when I get, and I broke this rule just the other day and I'm still kicking myself for it. But when I do the first call with an agency or a creative, as a creative, and luckily I'm in a situation where I have a producer who can really deal with the money and those types of things. And then I'm the creative director of the studio. The one thing that I learned is that I should never, ever as the creative, especially on the first call ever start getting into money or talking about that sort of stuff.

Dallas:
My number one job, and I put this on a whiteboard right in front of me off camera is to get them excited. My only job on that first call is to be fully creative. If they start diving into money or whatever, I go, "You know what, that's not my thing. Sam, my producer handles that. But once we get off the call, we'll talk and then she'll put together a bid." And so there is a lot of theory in that. And if I mess that up and I'm 45 minutes into a call, and then I start digging into money and stuff, it just kind of sours the conversation. So I always find that the best thing to do, I mean, people are coming for an experience. People want to know that they're in the best hands for that job possible. And so as the creative leader of the studio my job is just a spit ball on the highest level and get everyone jazzed about sound.

Dallas:
And that's really how, the biggest technique that I have, is that I do creative, Samantha does money and everything else. And of course we're talking behind the scenes and I own the company. But I think that's hard. And if you're a solo creative, that's really hard to do. But I would encourage people to kind of, if you're having a conversation, especially in real life or on Zoom or something like that, number one thing, get them excited, push money to after, slow the process down. When we're talking about, tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, depending on what's happening, that process does not need to be a rushed process process. It needs to just be slow, methodical, and really well thought out. And it starts with one call that is really just, I mean, if you want to call it a performance, a performance of just every thing that you could possibly do creatively to boost this spot.

Dallas:
And so that's really my theory with that. We don't get every spot because so many things are relationship-based, so someone might know some other sound designer or whatnot, and that's okay. There's plenty of work to go around.

Chris:
Okay. So I've been working in advertising for 20 some odd years, and I'm always fascinated by how other people approach things, especially because you're in a different part of the post-production pipeline chain. And so I'd love to hear a little bit more about your process pre that call and the mindset, because you said about getting excited. So let me just do the first part, and then I'll follow up with a second question, which is, what's your process like to prepare for this call? We realize how important it is, this first call to build a genuine connection, because it's if you have it, then you have a shot of doing this work, if you don't, that kind of ends the day affair, right? So what are you doing to prepare for these calls?

Dallas:
The first thing is to actually evaluate if you're the best for this job. Most of the time I think we are, but if I recognize that we're not, I don't want to waste anybody's time, especially when we're talking about sound, heavy sound design and stuff, I feel really confident about our process. But not only is this the best job for us, but is this project something that, I don't know, is at least good for the world, or at least not bad for the world? And so generally and thankfully 11 years into the studio, we do have the opportunity to say no and survive. That took a long time to get to that point.

Dallas:
But for us, I found in the past that even bringing on certain projects or hearing, or maybe a repeat client that we had a really bad experience with or something, the process is really do we want to take this job? Because if we don't or if we had a negative process before, or if it's something that's bad for the world or just negative, it's just going to make our gut churn, that takes a lot, even though we may get financially compensated for that, it takes a lot of an emotional toll out of our studio. So that's why we generally stay away from hard line politics. We definitely do cause-based stuff, but hard line politics or slimy stuff... I just learned, over the years, I've worked on so many different types of projects that I found that the content that comes through the screen is generally reflected in the process. And what I mean by that is if I'm working on something like The Real Housewives of something, something, almost every time I've ever worked on kind of a reality show, that's like crazy in its way, the whole process is like that, everyone kind of absorbs.

Dallas:
We all absorb each other's energy and when all of those, I don't know, all this tape and it's just drama and all this stuff, I found every time, if something's dramatic on screen or especially pointlessly dramatic, it comes through the post-production process too. And so I'm kind of evaluating things, do I feel good about this? Do I want to do this sort of thing? This is going to wake me up in the morning and I'm like, I can't wait to work on this. So that's one thing. And then, once we cross that bridge, I'm generally going to be excited about whatever it is. And so then it's really to prepare for that call, it's knowing what the brief is, not just skimming it, really understanding what they're trying to communicate, how sound can play into that, because usually, most of them are going to have music.

Chris:
Right.

Dallas:
And really just trying to solve problems along the way. If I see something that's super sound designy, I want to make sure that I'm prepping to where, when I come in, I say, "Hey, let's get a sound design pass for your editor. We're not going to charge any more, but we're going to start getting sound design give us some super rough cuts. We're going to sound design it, and we're going to split everything out and give it to the editor where the editor can then influence how that's used." Because it's very hard to shoe horn that in when an editor hasn't already set up those beats, it's very hard to shoe horn that in when it's already semi approved, up the food chain.

Dallas:
And so I'm trying to just see where the potential problems are, how I can alleviate those fears, and then just how can I, I don't know, I think this part's just really natural. If I'm excited about it, I'm just going to be peppy and go through. I'll start talking really fast and start saying, "Oh, we could try this. Or maybe we could try this. Or maybe we could try this totally unique thing." And in Widen Kennedy's case, I was, "Why don't we just do it right now and send it over in two days and let us know what you think." And so just kind of getting myself psyched up, but usually it's if we accept the project, I'm already psyched about it.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you have go-to questions that you have that are just good old standbys to kind of dig into what the real problem is or their fears, how you surface them?

Dallas:
Generally I don't, because I usually already know what those fears are. A lot of times it has to do with how do we fit everything into, I don't know, a one day session with 14 people crammed in a room, all saying, "Well, I think we should do this. And I think we should do that. And I think we should do that." And it's just creative by committee. Sometimes that works, but those are usually the fears is when they see really potential for sound design and that high-end sound, it's I'm always saying, bring us in earlier. And they're always nervous about, "Oh, no, but is that going to cost a ton of money?" When we're invested in a project, once we check the box on, okay, we are doing this project and yes, we're doing that and that's the budget we're going to do, I just kind of forget about the budget at that point, because then we have to put our name on it.

Dallas:
There's no part in the credits, especially for spots that says, "Give them a break. They only had a day on this." So if Defacto Sound is touching a project, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that we are represented well, ultimately that the client is represented well, but we give it our absolute best shot as early as possible and preferably in close relation with the editor.

Chris:
Okay. Thank you for doing that. You said that you started the company, I think 11 years ago. So I'm taking notes correctly here, after having done a stint or several stints at different in-house departments at different broadcast companies, right?

Dallas:
Yeah.

Chris:
So that puts you at around 2009. And if I remember, the financial world was just in the pit around 2008, 2009. So what gave you the genius idea to start a company and go off on your own in just what many people call an early depression?

Dallas:
With sound people in general, we have this very '90s mentality that if you don't have a million dollar studio, and if you don't have a hundred faders and a billion knobs, you can't succeed. It's like every sound student goes to, I don't know, some sound school. And the first thing they do is get into the big mix room and they take a picture leaning over an audio board where you can see all the audio board and then they make that their Facebook profile picture. That's the mentality of a lot of sound kind of people as you get into it. But so 2009, it wasn't shortly after this kind of breakdown of, I don't know, breakdown of that structure. It really started to crush down in the '90s, early 2000s. It was really, you could start making full records in your bedroom and stuff.

Chris:
Right.

Dallas:
The only thing that hadn't caught up with was the mental aspect. And so in 2009, when I started the company, that was the first year that you could do all the same stuff in Pro Tools LE, which is basically the Pro Tools Lite version of Pro Tools HD. And I don't think anybody really knew that at least client base, they were unlocking all the software back then. And I recognized back then that I didn't need $800,000 of an investment to start this thing, I needed like $15,000. And then I could compete with everything on that. And I saw back then that this industry, and I still don't think we're even, I think we're in the infancy of this as sound designers, I saw that we're in the infancy of sound not being a technical role, but being a talent driven role, where people come to certain places because of what they're able to achieve.

Dallas:
And I still, and I'm seeing that kind of every year, it's becoming more and more talent driven. People are caring less and less about what tools you're using or where you are any of those things. It's very much, well, what can you achieve and how can you impress me? And I love that because that's happened with designers in the '90, early 2000s, that's happened with composers once we had the ability to kind of go wherever, sound design is now in that pocket. And so the biggest thing is the financial world was kind of in the toilet, but everything became a 10th or a 20th as expensive in a very short time. And that's exactly when I left and started to do it all myself. And then since then, of course, I've bought a bunch of toys and all that, but still nothing like what kind of mid 2000s, '90s level stuff would be.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So do you think we're there today in 2020 that the perception of what a sound designers do has shifted from a technical thing into a more of artistic thing that you're kind of coming to a person for their philosophy, for their ear, so to speak, and how they kind of see things in their mind and how they construct things?

Dallas:
Are we there yet? Absolutely not. Not at all. Because, I think that until we get the general public and just where sound is being thought about and more in line with the other senses. So here's a little example. You can look, and anybody who's listening right now, you look in any direction. It would be hard unless you're going on a hike in a very undeveloped woods to find anything that's not human made, or maybe you're at the ocean. And, if you're at the ocean, then no one cares because you're spoiled right now. But everything is designed. How many things and just your periphery has been designed meticulously by a human. And that's great. Humans are very, very visual.

Dallas:
When we jump over to taste and we have these five senses, so sight, we have taste, we curate what we eat. We curate if we don't like something, we don't eat it. If we like something, we eat more, we better get deeper and deeper into being a foodie like I am. Our sense of touch, if something, our couches, our chairs, if we get a headache, we take ibuprofen. Our sense of touch is important. If something hurts or if it's uncomfortable, we fix it. Our sense of smell, if something stinks, we have a candle or fabreeze, or we have sewage, all these things. Generally with sight, taste, touch, and smell, we curate those. And we don't need anybody to say, I don't have to be a designer to have an opinion on the visual world. I don't have to be a world-class, three-star Michelin chef to have an opinion on what I like to eat. I don't have to be a furniture designer, or a biologist, or a chemist, or a pharmacist in order to go, Oh, I'm gonna take ibuprofen for this. And I don't have to be like a soap maker in order to have an opinion on what I think smells good or smells bad.

Dallas:
But with our sense of hearing, generally, our culture has become music and nothing else. Music is awesome. Music is also human made, which is also awesome, but the vast majority of the Sonic world, the vast majority of the Sonic world is not human made. And I also believe that as much as we have made incredible human made sounds through music, the natural world is we can't keep up with the natural world. The natural world is absolutely stunningly gorgeous, and anyone who's sat in a quiet forest next to a trickle of a creek, or anyone who's listened to the waves lap for hours on the ocean knows that that is speaking to a much deeper place in our soul and our minds than traditional music. And music can do amazing things, but it's a little overt. Whereas nature is from the beginning, the dawn of human history, nature has been embedded into our minds.

Dallas:
And so that's important to us. And I want us to celebrate that. And I want people to curate what they hear. If they have a squeaky door or something, and you've had a squeaky door for 15 years in this place, put some WD40 on it. Cutoff your, if you don't break anything, turn off your breaker and just listen to how quiet everything becomes and then rebuild what you want to hear there. Because the reality is sound can cause stress hormones, and that can cause heart disease and health problems and stress and anxiety. And when you have enough of that already. But I want people to curate that stuff.

Dallas:
I mean, another thing that's interesting about this, I've done a show about kind of how sound works in space. And most people know there is no sound in space, but if you have an atmosphere, you can kind of have a sound like thing. We're very visual creatures and what's cool about light is that light can travel from the farthest reaches of the entire universe to the other side of the universe, through photons and stuff, it's wild. But with sound, if we just were on a rocket going straight up a few miles upward, it's done, we don't have any more sound at all. And then it just goes on forever of silence. And if we fall into Venus or where we fall into Jupiter, we might have a little bit of sound, but as we know with helium or other gases, it just sounds totally different.

Dallas:
So our ears and our sense of hearing is so earth based and it's beautiful. And I want people to go, you don't have to be like an angry pony tailed guy in a dark room that you don't poke the bear because that person knows all about sound and there's this audio file idea and non audio file, and you can't have any opinions unless you're an audio file. I want everyone to have an opinion, just like you have opinions on all these other things.

Chris:
You probably know this. But I remember on one of these NPR related programs, I don't know if it's Radiolab or Ted Radio Hour or something, where they're talking to a person who wanted to capture the natural world in peer soundscapes. And he said, it's increasingly becoming harder and harder to find spots in the world where there isn't some kind of human intervention or overlap there. And it was just listening to some of those sounds like him in the deep woods or somewhere, and he's like, it has to be far away enough from where an airport is and anything, or any of the humming from the electrical lines. And it seemingly harder to find these spaces. Are you familiar with this piece, perhaps?

Dallas:
Yeah, I think it's the one square inch of silence, which is Gordon Hempton. He lives in far Northeast Washington State. And he's gone way out in the woods there and kind of deemed one place the least human made noise place in the world because he's traveled all over the place. It's true. There's just human made sound everywhere. We've done shows on kind of the human made, noise pollution. We've done shows even the one that's really fascinating is the noise pollution in the ocean is pretty wild to the point where shipping traffic. If you put your head under the water and if there's a ship even a mile away, you can hear it under the water because sound travels in a different way. Now you compound this with life under the ocean and you have these shipping lanes and travel.

Dallas:
We've documented over the past 60, 70 years whales that have completely abandoned all shipping lanes because it's too loud. The other thing that's interesting is that whales, we've documented whales vocalization getting higher and higher in pitch because they're normal vocalization, which sounds something like [inaudible 00:55:45], like that, that competes with shipping noise, that's[inaudible 00:55:50]. So in order for other whales to hear them, they had to go [inaudible 00:55:54]. And we have tons of recordings of literally whales in the ocean changing the way that they vocalized because of our human action. And not just in the ocean, let alone outside of that. But it's important that we have solace and space to be able to listen to nature.

Chris:
And if you were just tuning in just for that moment, you might be, wait a minute, did I just tune into Finding Nemo and doing the Dory impersonation of a whale, but no, we're talking to Dallas and he's telling us about how humans are changing the way that the natural world hears and perceive sound. I wanted to bring this up, this whole idea of natural sounds and then I thought that might be a great way to segue into your Ted talk, which I listened to. And it seemed odd to me, here's a guy who listens to sound, produces, manipulates, designs, sound for a living, and you want to celebrate this John Cage thing about silence. I think it was 433. And it was an interesting thing. I could see why somebody would want to do this, anybody except for you. So tell us what the motivation or inspiration was for you to talk about the power of silence?

Dallas:
So I went to music school, like I mentioned earlier, I was a trumpet player. And I remember in college thinking, Oh, John Cage, I don't know, kind of weird and esoteric, and maybe got attention because he just did weird things. So it took me a long time, one, to hear music normally, to actually enjoy it, in many ways, not always, but I feel like music school ruins music in a lot of ways, or at least the love and enjoyment. But with John Cage, just as I've gotten older, 20 years after college, just John Cage has always stuck with me. And 433 in particular, I just, I don't know. I just kept, I don't know, not necessarily meditating on it, but just thinking about it over the years and just wondering, okay, the silent piece.

Dallas:
And so 433 is really famous that it's basically three movements, a piano, a pianist comes out and sits down and for the first piece just closes the piano lid. And they sit there for, I think it's a minute and 30 ish, something like that. And then they open the piano lid, then they close it again. And then 30 seconds and then they open it and they close it again. They just sit there. And so it's very awkward for the audience, but what is John cage trying to communicate there? Well, he was really influenced in kind of all kinds of things. And he had always talked about at least when you start to do, hear interviews with him, as just like sound and music are not necessarily one or the other, sometimes they can kind of be one in the same.

Dallas:
And so that concept just kept, I don't know, it just kept sticking with me. And I eventually, I was like, "Okay, let's greenlight a 433 episode." And then I kind of learned along the way that this was not a piece just to be lazy or to kind of just sit there and make everyone feel awkward. First, it was a protest because back then Muzak, the Muzak corporation was putting music in every like department store and grocery store, just like we have today. We have music everywhere. And back then it was like the start of it. And so he was like, "What if I sold a four and a half minute long piece that's silent to the Muzak company to where I can just have peace and not listen to anything when I do shopping or whatnot?"

Dallas:
And then it kind of started out as that kind of idea that joke if you will. And then over time it started to become much more serious. And then he started realizing, wow, well, I don't know the traffic. I mean, for him, he was like, "The traffic on fifth Avenue is musical in its own way when you really unlock that." There's a big difference between hearing and listening. We're hearing all of these things, but you can stop for a second and really put all of your consciousness into what you're hearing specifically, and that is a different experience than just kind of going through the world, just passing by things. And so, I just became really fascinated with that and really what I found through studying 433 and kind of doing a whole show on it, is that John Cage was trying to, it was not about silence, it was about appreciating the world for what it is and it's Sonic glory.

Dallas:
And it was really kind of putting sound in the same place as music and framing it to where this moment in time that's fleeting and that will evaporate in the air, never to be heard again, is important. And the way that our eardrums vibrate, that's a visceral experience if you can really put your consciousness into it. And so, I don't know. I practice that. I think we all need to be a little mindful of our reality right now because there's so many external factors kind of trying to stress us out. And for me, I try to, I don't know, become a little mindful and conscious about what I'm listening to if I ever needed to ground myself.

Chris:
And for our audience, if you want to listen to the full version or the expanded version of what Dallas just shared with us, I'll include it in the show notes and you can listen to the whole thing. Now, before we get out of here, I wanted to ask you a question about the whole naming Defacto. Defacto, does that mean that the default, the standard, where does that name come from?

Dallas:
It's Defacto is one, just a cool name. That sounds awesome. Defacto sound. It's also a word that most people think they know what it means, but most people don't including myself for the longest time. It's when you're talking about the defacto government, it's not the real official government, but it is the one that's actually ruling. So the way that I think about it with Defacto Sound, it's a little bit of a play on that '90s mentality. The rule book is this, the rule book is that you have a bunch of shiny knobs, and lights, and blinky things to work because a client... The rule book is the client can't think for themselves and they need all this visual stimulation in order to really appreciate what you do in sound.

Dallas:
I don't like that at all. I think that we should be able to speak as sound designers, without saying a word. When we send review pieces, which we do all day long, we do not put explanations with it unless it's specifically given. It's easy to kind of fall into this trap, which is, what we're trying to do here is this thing and feel this and dah, dah, dah. And it's none of that matters. We have to be able to speak with sound only. And so Defacto Sound is really kind of, to me, throwing the rule book out and saying, "This is just the way the world is now and not this kind of '80, '90, 2000s mentality." The world now, content is democratized. You can put things on YouTube and be wildly successful because there's no boss, you're making authentic content because you don't need the gatekeeper of a film festival, or a TV network, or somebody to tell you that it's okay to go make stuff. We can just do it now. That's our world.

Dallas:
Our tools are ever expanding. Weekly, we have better and cooler toys and stuff. I don't want to sit around and wait for approval from somebody not in a sound department to say, "Oh, I don't know. Do you really need that noise, reducing thing?" No. The reality now, the Defacto world is that yes. Our edge is being able to be on top of ability. And so, that's kind of what I think of Defacto Sound, meaning. By the way, no one has ever asked me that in 11 years.

Chris:
Really?

Dallas:
Right. Yeah.

Chris:
I guess people just make assumptions, right?

Dallas:
Yeah. I think it's, "Oh, I know what that word means, but I won't say anything."

Chris:
So I'm glad I got that in.

Dallas:
Yeah.

Chris:
So thank you very much for being a guest on my show today. How can people find out more about you?

Dallas:
I would say since you're listening in a podcast player right now, go subscribe to Twenty Thousand Hertz, which is all spelled out T-W-E-N, et cetera. That's the podcast. And that's the closest relative to what you're listening to right now. Over there, we've done kind of taking little sounds, the THX deep note, or the Netflix audio logo, or brain science, and we've kind of expanded it into a 20, 25 minute long show. That's takes 200 plus hours to make every single episode, super highly crafted, lots of sound design, all of that stuff. So I'd say number one, go check that out.

Dallas:
But if any of these things kind of spark an agency person, or people are like, "Oh, I really want to know about Defacto, you can find us at defactosound.com. And we also have an Instagram page where we post really dumb videos a lot. We'll take a random TikTok video and resound design it. We also put that on our YouTube page too. So I would recommend Instagram and YouTube follows, as well as going to Twenty Thousand Hertz in your podcast player and tapping subscribe.

Chris:
Awesome. Now I did listen to the Netflix episode ta-dum and I have to say the amount of work, I can see that when you say it takes hundreds of hours to produce, I could definitely feel that in the production and just the sourcing of all the different clips that you have. And it's kind of, if I may, hope this isn't horrible, it's kind of like abstract, but for your ears. Abstract the Netflix series of the interview, kind of influential, interesting people in the individual space. I think it's like that, but for people who work in sound. So definitely check it out everybody.

Dallas:
It's funny that you mentioned that because there was no foregone conclusion that this show is going to be a podcast. I thought about it being a YouTube show, but then I realized that with everything on YouTube, I would get so many comments on, what camera did you use? What's your lighting setup, what's all this stuff. And I just knew that visuals would take the precedence. Visuals are amazing, but I thought I'm going to restrict, I'm going to make this box for Twenty Thousand Hertz sound only. And so, abstract, it's like chef's table, but for sound, very highly crafted in all, and in audio only form.

Chris:
Well, congratulations on that. And I wish you continued success in all of your endeavors. Thank you very much.

Dallas:
Thanks. I'm Dallas Taylor, and you're listening to The Futur.

Greg:
Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony Borrow for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on Apple podcasts, it'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me, head over to the future.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

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