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Dakota Robertson

Dakota Robertson is a professional ghostwriter. Businesses and influencers hire him to write tweets that go viral and amass an audience. And he is damn good at it.

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The 3 pillars of great content

Dakota Robertson is a professional ghostwriter. Businesses and influencers hire him to write tweets that go viral and amass an audience. And he is damn good at it.

In this podcast episode, Dakota shares how he went from working as an electrician to becoming this invisible, content-writing hero for his clients. His ghostwriting business is so successful that he is turning down all new and potential clients.

If you write copy or work in the content creation business, then do not sleep on this episode. Dakota and Chris discuss the three content pillars and share five actionable tips for writing better copy. Here's a quick example: use simple language and short sentences.

Dec 7

The 3 pillars of great content

A ghostwriter’s 5 tips for writing better copy.

Dakota Robertson is a professional ghostwriter. Businesses and influencers hire him to write tweets that go viral and amass an audience. And he is damn good at it.

In this podcast episode, Dakota shares how he went from working as an electrician to becoming this invisible, content-writing hero for his clients. His ghostwriting business is so successful that he is turning down all new and potential clients.

If you write copy or work in the content creation business, then do not sleep on this episode. Dakota and Chris discuss the three content pillars and share five actionable tips for writing better copy. Here's a quick example: use simple language and short sentences.

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Greg Gunn

Greg Gunn is an illustrator, animator and creative director in Los Angeles, CA. He loves helping passionate people communicate their big ideas in fun and exciting ways.

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A ghostwriter’s 5 tips for writing better copy.

Episode Transcript

Dakota:

It's my job as a writer to best convey that person's perspective regardless of what I believe. And I believe they have the right to tell people what they believe. And my biggest value's is freedom. I'm so open to everyone's different perspectives, I may not agree with them, but I think everyone has their right. I do like my ability to morph myself into these different positions, but I'm good at compartmentalizing. It's like, okay, I believe this, but I got to write in this character. It's kind of like actors.

Chris:

Introduce yourself and tell us a little story about you.

Dakota:

Yeah. Nice to meet you all that are listening. My name is Dakota. Growing up, I'll just briefly go into it, I used to be this little chubby, fat kid, super socially anxious, grew up without a father, he chose to smoke crack instead of raising me. That caused all kinds of insecurities and stuff growing up. But a common theme throughout my life was just doing uncomfortable things and a lot of different personalities I had to put on to adapt to different environments. And long story short, I mean at the age of 18, I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. So I was like, okay, I'm going to just be an electrician because there's a program where you can just graduate early. I'm going to learn a trade, make some money while I figure the things out and then I'll go from there.

I actually started reading self-improvement stuff like Rich Dad Poor Dad, that was my first book, an introduction to that world. And I just fell in love with it and just always had this in the back of my head, oh, I really want to do something where I have control over my own life. I'm very big on freedom. So I was working as an electrician. I was working 12, 14 hour days up in oil rigs in Canada. And I was just absolutely miserable. I was making great money, but I was just like, this is just unfulfilling work. And I was looking around me seeing all these people, they just look absolutely dead inside, they've been doing this for 40, 50 years. I was like, I don't want to be that person.

So during that time I was like, okay, I need to figure something out. Was listening to podcasts, all that, Jordan Harbinger, he mentioned how he went to Vietnam and I said, "I want to go travel. Screw it. I got to find myself." And so I went there, I absolutely found in love with just traveling and the freedom of that. And I knew I need to make this part of my life or having that freedom a part of my life. So after that trip, three months in Asia, I came back, started working again, but way more intent of saving money and trying to figure out ways to have my money work for me. Found crypto in 2018, started investing heavily. Everyone thought I was freaking crazy. I didn't care, I saw where it was going, just kept investing. Actually turned out to be one of the best decisions in my life because that gave me the freedom around two, three years later to drop out of college, quit my job and pursue writing full on.

But originally, I mean after two years of investing in crypto and all that, I was like, screw this, I'm going to be a teacher. I was going to college to be a high school English and psychology teacher. But yeah, I ended up dropping out because I was learning more from Twitter than I was in class. It was actually crazy. I was paying thousands of dollars, but the people on Twitter were teaching me more than anything else. And I mean, to begin with, I was on Twitter because I was keeping up with crypto and I stumbled across a course and like, "Oh, grow your account and all of that stuff." And I took it and I just kind of stumbled across that section of Twitter from crypto.

And yeah, I just took it and ran with it. Made a lot of mistakes along the way. You actually, I studied you religiously when I was first starting out on the entrepreneurship game, like branding, I was doing web design, all that stuff. And I absolutely loved your content. So it's kind of crazy how it went full circle for me. It's really surreal. But lots of mistakes along the way and lots of learnings.

Chris:

Pretty wild ride from profession to travel to college to Twitter, self-educated, now creating a business for yourself, lots of things to uncover there. There seems to be one pretty consistent theme, your willingness to say yes to just about anything and figuring it out later. Is that a pretty accurate description there?

Dakota:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did a lot of uncomfortable things growing up. So I was forced into dance class, I was forced in all these other sports, like jujitsu, all of that stuff. And it was just putting me in these positions where it's like, oh, I'm very uncomfortable. And at first I didn't want to do them, but I was forced into it. And I think that set my baseline for things. Its like, oh, discomfort isn't that bad. When you lean into it, you adapt, get used to it and all of that. So I do have a tendency to say yes to a lot of things. I mean for the story, see where it goes to learn all of that jazz. But yeah.

Chris:

You mentioned something about your dad, if you don't mind, I'd just like to come back to that because it helps me to understand the person before we get into all the tactics. You said that your dad wasn't really around, an absentee dad, he had an addiction problem. Is he still around? Is he in your life today? What is that like?

Dakota:

Yeah, it's been an interesting relationship. My mom gave my father an ultimatum when he had me and my brother. It was like, you either keep partying, doing drugs and all that, or you take care of your sons. He didn't have a father growing up and he was very scared of like, "Oh, I don't know if I can raise these kids." So he chose the alternate route. And I mean he would come visit sometimes growing up. He would get sober, come visit, all of that, but then he would relapse and then it was a constant cycle. But to this day, it's like I'm the father and it's like I got to take care of him at certain points. I literally just bought a car off him because he is in so much debt. I actually lost my shit for the first time ever on him just telling him to get his life straight.

But yeah, it's been a constant. I see him more as a friend. But he's in my life sometimes for a few months and then they'll leave. I've never seen him as a father, as more of a friend. But I don't hold any resentment towards him. I'm actually very appreciative that it happened this way, because I wasn't abused, I wasn't sexually assaulted or anything like that. I just didn't really have a father in my life. And I mean, sure, there's definitely disadvantages to that, but at the same time I got to forge my own path. I wasn't emotionally abused or anything like that. So I'm very appreciative of that. And I think it helped me mature at a young age and develop into the person who I am today. And I like myself today. And I mean, I'm appreciative of it. So yeah, I don't really see it as a negative. Definitely some hurdles I had to overcome, but those challenges really helped me in a lot of ways down the line.

Chris:

When did you find yourself, when did you discover your own inner confidence and strength? What age and did anything happen?

Dakota:

Man, this was one of the biggest things I've had to overcome. I used to be fat, for context, like a little fat, not severely obese, but like a chubby chunker some people called me. And I got made fun of for that. And when you're young especially, when you hear these narratives spun at you many times, other people telling you, "Oh, you're fat. You're whatever." You hear it enough times and since you're so young, I mean that's pretty much your only input. And you play it enough times and you start to believe it. You're like, oh, this is what I'm hearing, this must be true. And then you start to identify with how other people may see or mean things they say. And then you start running that narrative in your head. And then over time it's just your default narrative and you adopt that identity. So people called me fat and treated me poorly in some ways because of how I looked or I was super socially anxious and all of that.

So I just started telling myself all the time, it's like, I am socially anxious, I'm fat, I'm not good enough, all of that. So I mean, I ran that for years, probably 12 years or whatever. That caused me to start going to the gym, wake up at 5:30 AM. Because I was just sick of not liking myself and actually hating myself in a lot of ways, not feeling good enough. So that drove me to the gym at age 13. And I lost the weight and I actually got fairly muscular. And I mean, in high school age 16, I was known as the jacked kid and everyone thought I was charismatic, all this stuff. But I didn't feel it inside because I was playing that narrative for all those years. So I mean, you can change your exterior, but I mean, I didn't do any inner work. So I still had that narrative, like, I'm not good enough. I'm worthless, I am socially anxious, all of that. And I felt like I was going to get found out at any moment.

So I carried that narrative from age, whatever, 13 to age 22. And no matter what people told me, like, "Oh, you're so great at this or you got this going on." it was like, I didn't believe it. Because I was so ingrained in that thinking where you're not good enough, you're this, you're that.

And it wasn't until I read the book, I think it's Six Pillars or Seven Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathan something. I read a part in there where, it was something along the lines, "Don't identify with your thoughts. Your thoughts are not reality. Your feelings are not reality." And it was the way he phrased it or something, that's when it kind of clicked for me, it's like, oh, I'm running all these narratives, I have all these beliefs. But I never thought to actually challenge them. And it wasn't until I started challenging those beliefs that I was socially anxious, that I wasn't good enough, that I was this or I was that. It wasn't until I started challenging that narrative that I made those changes. It was like, okay, I'm socially anxious. And then I'll be like, wait, wait, wait. I recognize it. It's like socially anxious? No, no, no, no. I am not socially anxious. Maybe I'm experiencing feelings of social anxiety, but that does not mean I am this fixed way.

So it wasn't until I started challenging those thoughts and recognizing them that that's when a lot of the inner work started. And that's when I reframed these narratives. So instead of saying I'm socially anxious, whenever that would pop up, I'd be like, okay, what's the supporting evidence for that? Maybe I've been shy in the past and all that, but let's flip the script. Okay, what about times I was confident? It's like, okay, I mean I've had these stories in the past where I was confident and all that. It's like, oh, I mean, well, let's just reframe it. Maybe I'm feeling a bit nervous right now. But I mean look in the past and there's times where I was very confident. It's like, oh, I'm a confident person. So it's finding stuff in the past that is true and then you pair it with a narrative and you start to adopt that identity.

So first you got to recognize it and then challenge them, reframe, and then it takes the rewiring your thinking. And that's super powerful. That was age 22, age 21, I found that book. And it definitely took some time and I still struggle with it sometimes, but I've gotten a lot better. I feel like I'm slowly becoming the person I want to become more and more. And yeah, it's been a powerful tool for me, but it definitely wasn't an easy road and it took some time and some struggle.

Chris:

Thanks for sharing that. For our audience who might not know who you are, the few pieces of content that I've consumed from you, you pretty much say it as it is and you're not too worried about filtering your thoughts. So it might seem like he's really vulnerable, but he's this way all the time, everybody. So I'm going to keep asking questions. I want to spend a minute here talking about this because I find what you're saying to be exception versus the norm. I have lots of friends in my community, people I coach and try to help. It seems like they know what the problem is, they even know what the solution is, but for some reason they just can't put it together. And they spend a lot of time sitting in the problem, more so than taking action towards the solution.

Here you are having grown up, maybe you were teased and you didn't like the way you looked and you transformed that. So you're the kind of guy who wakes up one morning, it seems like, who decides today is a new day and I'm going to just change my life because I don't like the way it was. You go to the gym, you lose weight, you do your thing. And then at, what did you say, 22, you decide, you know what? My outside and my inside don't match up. You seek the book, you read the book and you start to change the narrative almost instantly. What is it about you or how do you see the world in that you seek the information, the information presents itself and you take immediate action. Because if we can unpack that, I think it's going to help a lot of people.

Dakota:

Honestly, I don't think I take instant action. I probably glossed over it too much, too fast, sorry. But yeah, I struggled with being chubby for a long time before I took action. It wasn't until I just felt so much pain, I just didn't take action. I didn't take action. Because my mom was dating someone at the time, her boyfriend, and I think he might've suggested, "Let's go to the gym," and all that or something. So I started going with him. He was a big influence on me. But yeah, it definitely wasn't instant where it's like, oh, I recognize the problem. It is definitely a gradual, I felt that pain.

And then also with the social anxiety stuff, I actively didn't know how to change myself, it wasn't like, oh, I got to read this book or whatever. It was like I just knew I felt this pain. I was reading these books on body language and persuasion or whatever, and I just so happened to come across that book because of a recommendation from a YouTube video from a channel charisma on Command. I just-

Chris:

[inaudible 00:15:19] one.

Dakota:

Yeah, yeah. So I was like, okay, I'm going to try reading this book. And I mean I've tried all these different solutions in the past, but yeah, it was a lot of trial and error. And then I think some things just clicked because I just tried so much stuff. Well, not even tried, I mean I read a lot of stuff. Yeah, it was definitely not an instant switch.

And a lot of it too, it was baby steps. I mean, to overcome my social anxiety too, even before that book, I was too scared to really ask women out or whatever. So I would just make small talk to people at a cashier desk and I would just ask like, "Oh hey, how's your day going?" And then that was a small win for me. And then I would continue to do that and force myself to do that. And then once that was my new baseline, it's like I've approached people, just random strangers. I remember an old man at the mall one day, I literally just walked up to him. I just sat next to him, like, "How's your day going?" Just had a nice conversation. You're just pushing your boundaries each time.

And I mean, it's definitely not a flick of the switch, at least it wasn't for me. It was just like, okay, let's inch forward a little bit, lean into that discomfort. There's definitely a lot of discomfort you're going to have to lean into. But I think that's a good sign if you're feeling discomfort, because I mean that's growth. I mean, you don't really grow without putting stress on your body. I relate it to the gym. You need to break yourself down a little bit to grow, come back, recoup and grow. But yeah, there's some people that are just built differently, like David Goggins or people like that. But yeah, it's more of a gradual process and it's not sexy to say that you have to just keep pushing yourself and get uncomfortable. But that was the experience for me, just feeling a lot of pain and then just trying different shit.

Chris:

Well, thanks for correcting me. My assumption there and just keeping it real, real. Okay, I love that. Now, I'm doing the math here. It says you went to college on your LinkedIn profile, it says you got your bachelor's degree, but it doesn't seem like you got your bachelor's degree. How far into college did you make it?

Dakota:

Yeah, I'm such a boomer with LinkedIn. I don't even know how to operate that. So that's definitely false. I got two years in, so I was on my second year, my first semester of second year of college. And the moment I knew I was going to drop out was when I was forced into a certain class to get my degree, to get credits. And I was in this class and the professor had these slides up. And the first slide I saw was introducing everyone to whatever, blah, blah, blah. "All right, class, we're going to go around and we're going to introduce ourselves as a weather system and I want you to mime the weather system that you're feeling today." And at that moment I was, oh, okay, this is what college is. No, I'm not into this. I mean, I was getting an arts degree, but still I think that's not for me at least.

Chris:

Sure.

Dakota:

Yeah, that was kind of weird.

Chris:

That was the moment you realized this is not it, I'm not doing this anymore?

Dakota:

Yeah, I was like, is this really what they're teaching people? And this is a class that is even relevant to what I'm trying to do. I think there's a place for college and university, but I think for many people, especially creatives, I don't think it's needed, especially with the resources that are out today. I learn more from your channel, The Futur than any other college class I learned. And it was way more applicable, not fluff. And it was actually people that are in places where I wanted to be. And I think that's one of the biggest things is a lot of these professors or teachers, they haven't really done much outside academia, but there's definitely a place for it, just it wasn't for me in that position.

Chris:

Well, it doesn't seem like that decision hurt you because you started your own company, I believe it's called Growth Ghosts, and I looked at the website. So there's a couple of remarkable things that you claim on the site. One is that you guarantee a minimum of 20,000 organic Twitter followers in 60 days, or you'll do it for free, and then get you another 10,000 followers at no extra charge. And then when you click on the See If You qualify, it says you're not taking on any new clients. So you have a busy roster of clients, presumably, that's why you can't take on anymore. Tell me what it is that if you were taking clients, what is it that you do for your clients?

Dakota:

Yeah, I always like to say I pretend to be people on the internet. So what I do for clients is there's two parts. There's basically writing and distribution. So I create content for different types of people that I want to take on, I think are interesting. And I create content for them. And then I distribute that content on those social networks with my networks of people that I know. So they'll retweet their stuff, their content, all of that. But yeah, basically I get to know the client, I get to get a feel for their story, what they want to do, what their goal is with social media, and then I cater the writing toward that and basically grow them really fast. I had a guarantee before, it was like 50,000 followers in 60 days, but that was just too much pressure. I just didn't want to do that again. So I dialed it back.

Chris:

Yeah, 20,000 still is a lot in 60 days and it's remarkable even just that. So can we talk a little bit about business? If you were taking on clients, how much would you charge to be able to do that for 60 days?

Dakota:

Yeah, I've had different offers. So I had it where one was 10,000 followers in 90 days, I charged $25,000 for that. That was crazy to me, because at the time I just didn't want to take people on. So this guy DMs me, he's like, "Hey, I want your service." I was like, "Oh, I mean, I'll refer you to someone else. I'm super high ticket." It was just because I was like, I just don't want to take anyone on right now, I just got a lot of work. He asked me, "What's high ticket?" And this is all in DMs by the way, so I never had a conversation. It's like, "Oh, $25,000 to get you to 10,000 followers." It's like, "Okay, screw off, I'll refer you to someone else." And he says, "Okay, put me on the wait list."

I was like, holy shit, really? This is crazy. And I realized the power of a personal brand and building an audience, but it was like, that's when it really click. This guy doesn't even know me. I mean, he probably knows of me, but I mean, the only reason I'm able to do that in the DMs is because, I mean, I've built a brand, I've built the trust the authority, all of that. And he's willing to pay me that, that amount of money. Ended up working with him, got him to 10,000 followers in two days. He's at 65,000 followers in 30 days, which is stupid. So yeah, I've charged $25,000 for that.

Again, I had some people reach out because they knew me from Twitter, hopped on a call with them and they wanted my services. I was like, "No, you just need to do this, this and that. Just follow this strategy. Do what I said." And they're like, "Okay, okay. But if we wanted to hire you, how much would it be?" I was like, "$35,000." And they're like, "Okay." And then an hour after the call they're like, "We want to work with you. Let's do it. Send the invoices." Are you serious? This is crazy. But typically I do month to month and right now I'm charging $7K a month and that's just grow their account. No crazy guarantees.

For context, I started out with charging $3K a month for ghost writing. But yeah, I definitely just see what their goals are. It's like, okay, you want to get to this follower amount in this time I just throw a price out, whatever. And then if I feel like I really want to work with them, I'll lower the price because it's easier to write for some people than others. But yeah, it's crazy what you can charge when you build a personal brand.

Chris:

Okay. Lots for me to ask you about and follow up on. The person that you did the thing for $25K that you got them the results in two days, are you done for the rest, you got you your goal? Or how does that work then?

Dakota:

No. So I'm such a people pleaser and I think that comes from just trying to be liked as a kid and all of that. But I'm also a big proponent of over delivering. So when I reached that mark, I mean I could have cut it and then stop, but at the same time-

Chris:

I think you're supposed to cut it by the way.

Dakota:

... Yeah, I probably should. I probably-

Chris:

You're like, I gained you followers and you delivered, you over delivered, you delivered in, what is it, 58 days faster than you're supposed to.

Dakota:

... Yeah. He was so mind blown. It was so cool to see. I really like him. I continue to work with him. But yeah, I was like, let's see how far we can take this. I mean, it's a good case study too, right? You can leverage that down the line to land more clients. Or if you have a different offer, you can just say, "Hey, I've done this in the past." So that's a huge asset for me to say I've grown someone's brand to 60,000 followers plus in 30 days. It was absolutely nuts. And that's going to be a huge asset for me when I create other offers down the road. But I just went absolute balls to the wall with his content and I wrote a thread every day and it was pretty crazy. It was cool to see. Because it pushes your boundaries, you're like, oh, this is what's possible. I can do this. And then for future offers, like, oh, okay, let's see how far I can push this. I can probably charge more down the line for some result like this. Yeah, it was crazy.

Chris:

While we're on this line, it says you're not taking any more clients. How many clients are you actively managing right now?

Dakota:

Yeah, right now, I've been bottle necked by my systems. That's something I've been really working on lately, so I can take on more clients. Right now, I think I have seven and we'll probably be upping it to nine real quick, because we're onboarding new people. It's been crazy. I want to get that to around 20 within six months. But yeah, it's definitely intense. I'm trying to get out of the agency work, I've hired some people to take my place. I've trained them and all that.

Chris:

I see. So is this the case that the ghost writer has a ghost writer?

Dakota:

I mean, kind of in a way. I mean, I've created all these frameworks and I've trained my main guy, Joey Justice, on how to run everything and do this and do that. But yeah, I guess I kind of do have a ghost writer, but I also come in and I'm just double checking, making sure, like the final product, okay, maybe we need to change the hooks here and all of that. But yeah, it's like an MLM.

Chris:

Well, you're going to serve as the function of the editor or the creative director at this point, right?

Dakota:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Chris:

You have a system, a framework, you vet and test people, you do quality control. You're growing a business and it's not just a business of one person anymore.

Dakota:

Exactly. Yeah, 100%

Chris:

So now you said something and I need to come back to it, and then I have more questions about content and how you grow on social. But you said that you do two things, you ghost write for people, and then you deal with distribution. And you said that you send it to a network of people that you know that then also share it. Tell me a little bit about how that works and why that works.

Dakota:

Yeah, a big secret a lot of people don't know about, you can pay for retweets, you can pay for IG story shout-outs and all of that. You can go the organic route and you can comment a hundred times a day if you want. But the biggest secret is you just pay people to retweet the content. Everyone you see on Twitter, typically the big creators, they're either trading retweets, they're buying retweets, they're selling retweets, all of that. So that's what I mean by distribution is I'm paying people to retweet my client's content because to get that kind of results, I'm not commenting 20,000 times a day. That's absolutely crazy. But yeah, the way I see it, it's like paid ads pretty much, but you're just getting shout-outs.

Chris:

They're amplifying the message by sharing with their networks, right?

Dakota:

Exactly. I mean, and the thing is, it's not a ticket to, oh, you're just going to get all these followers. It's like, no, you need the content to be nailed on because otherwise, if you have bad content and you get 100 retweets, it's not going to be appealing. You need to nail those two aspects. And then vice versa, I mean, you can have the best content in the world, but if no one sees it doesn't matter. So you need those two elements.

Chris:

Okay. And what does it cost for this kind of distribution? I've never used anything like this before. So if I wanted to grow my following and somebody who's listening, is like, okay, I get it. If I believe my content is good, I need help with distribution and more retweets. How do I go about doing this? What does it cost?

Dakota:

Yeah, it ranges. So if you want to get retweets from a more broad platitude general motivation account, it's cheaper because you're more of a commodity, don't have as much authority. It's just, I don't know, it's kind of like a broad audience. So you're looking at between $10 to $35 typically for one of those accounts that has 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 followers, typically $25. And then when it comes to more authoritative brands, like people that have an audience of a certain niche, maybe a business niche, it's going to be more expensive because they have a higher quality audience, they have more authority, stuff like that. In that aspect, you're looking probably between, it can range, like $40 to $70 per retweet. And that's for probably 100,000 to 200,000 followers. When you get to the stratosphere of 500,000 followers, you can charge crazy prices on Twitter. Instagram's crazy too. Instagram's even pricier. I'm not too, too acquainted with Instagram buying. I've never bought a share on Instagram for myself, but yeah, I think they're pricier.

Chris:

So a 500,000 follower audience that's niched, what would that cost to retweet?

Dakota:

Oh gosh. I would probably say you're probably $200 a retweet or something.

Chris:

Wow.

Dakota:

I'm just ballparking though. I know a creator, I think he's got 500,000 followers and he's decently well known, and he's charging like $6,000 for 20 retweets or 30 retweets. It's just nuts.

Chris:

This is probably the easiest money ever to make once you develop your audience, right?

Dakota:

Yes.

Chris:

Because literally you just da, or do they have to say something?

Dakota:

No, they don't have to. They just hit a button. It blows my mind still to this day. It's like I just hit a button, I just made $40, $50, $60. It's like, what? It's nuts.

Chris:

Right.

Dakota:

Crazy.

Chris:

Maybe I'm working too hard these days. I need to rethink my strategy here. And for people who are like, "Eh, the creator economy, no followers don't equal dollars." You just heard a way that you just make money right then and there.

Dakota:

Yeah.

Chris:

Okay. All right. Let's get back in time though, because you're on Twitter, you're learning, you're watching YouTube, you're doing what you're supposed to do, you read books and you're sharing your information. At what point in which you're able to trade on your following for a client who's like, "I want you to do what you do for me." How many followers? How old are you? How long ago was this?

Dakota:

Yeah, I started my ghost writing agency in November of 2021, and within 28 days of launching, I was at 11K a month. I only had, I think 5,000 followers at the time. Because I think that was the inception-

Chris:

Wow.

Dakota:

... Yeah, dude, it was nuts.

Chris:

Holy cow.

Dakota:

That was around the start of before ghost writing was really well known. I mean, it's still not really well known. But yeah, right away I was charging 3K a month out the gate. I didn't even promote my landing page, til this day, not even once. It was just link in bio, here's my website, here's my copy on my landing page. And yeah, I had someone fill out a form, landed them for three K a month. And then again, 5K a month. And then again, I think another guy at 3K a month. It was absolutely nuts. It's kind of crazy. It shows the power of if you're in the right market, you can charge higher prices and how you position yourself. Because if I was just a copywriter, there's no way I would be able to charge that because there's so many other copywriters. But since there's so few ghost writers, it's just, yeah, it's a lot easier.

Chris:

What do you attribute to your success in landing that first client to get them to go to the page and then do a call with you, before we get into the call and how you handle the sales yourself? Because 5,000 followers is pretty hard to do on Twitter, but it's not enough to say, you're the guy, let me give you money. What was it about you? Can you pinpoint anything that triggered someone to like, oh, I need to look into Dakota right now?

Dakota:

Yeah, it's actually funny. I use the website app Sumo a lot, it's a marketplace for agency owners or market marketers to get softwares and all that. But I bought this software and I was a big fan of it. I love it. I used it to this day. But it was slowing down my computer a bit, so I messaged the founders on Twitter and I said, "Hey, love the app, all this, blah, blah, blah. I just wanted to let you guys know that this is what I'm experiencing. I don't know if it's my side or your side." And that was it. I wasn't trying to land them as a client or anything. They got back to me, they're like, "Okay, cool, cool." But I guess they checked on my profile and they saw my landing page and they filled out my form.

Chris:

Oh my God.

Dakota:

I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. Right on. Within a week of launching my business. So yeah, that's how I got my first client in the door. I definitely DM'd... I was DMing these really big names on YouTube and stuff, and I was like, I'm going to shoot my shot, cold DMs and cold emails and all that. But nothing came to fruition of that. But yeah, it was funny, I wasn't even trying to land a client, or that client, and they filled out my form. It was pretty funny.

Chris:

Wow, that's pretty wild. Okay, so you're on the call, presumably selling a creative service you've not been able to charge other people for. How does the sales call go down that you can land a client?

Dakota:

Man, that was so funny. So I work at coffee shops a lot. I just love going to coffee shops and it's kind of my happy place. But I took the sales call in the middle of a Starbucks with this microphone, super unprofessional, and I took the sales call. I had no idea what I was doing. I was so nervous. I get so nervous, or I used to, on sales calls. And basically I just asked questions, just try to get a good idea and all of that. I was just, I don't know what to say, I'm just going to ask questions and get a good idea and all of that. And yeah, I basically pitched my service and just said...

So I asked them all these questions to get a good idea of his situation. And then I was like, "Okay, I feel like I understand everything. Do you want me to run you through what I do?" Probably said it really nervously. But yeah, ran him through my process. And then I was like, "And the price is $3,000 per month." And I shut up. I shut up. And he's like, "Okay, so I'm going to talk to my business partner and get back to you." And I know that's not a good sign. And I knew it in my head, but I was just too scared to push him for the sale. So I was like, "Okay, yeah, that's cool. That's cool, man." But turns out he actually needed to talk to his business partner and then they came back to me two days later, "Yeah, let's do it." And I was like, oh, so sweet. So yeah, that was cool, but super nervous.

Chris:

So it wasn't just a story, he really needed to talk to his business partner?

Dakota:

Yeah, he actually needed to.

Chris:

Because he wanted to move forward?

Dakota:

Yeah, 100% percent. Yeah. Man, the first dozen sales calls were so nerve-wracking for me. But again, I just leaned into that discomfort and I knew, oh, okay, I'm feeling these nerves and it's a sign I need to do this. I need to lean into this, because in order to become the person I want to become, I need to develop these quality traits. And I know taking these actions are the way to get that. So I just leaned into it.

Chris:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Greg Gunn:

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Chris:

Welcome back to our conversation. Writing for yourself is one thing, and for some people that's the biggest challenge to have to overcome. But writing for someone else, when you said you have to pretend to be someone else and it's what you do for a living, tell me about your process. What do you do to get in someone's head and what is it you're looking for to be able to mine so that you can start to become like them? But more interesting? Because obviously if they just do them, it's not going to go anywhere.

Dakota:

With each client, I hop on a one hour call with them. And what I'm mainly looking for is, okay, what are the vibes of this person? Are they super serious? Are they playful, are they funny? Maybe they have a certain pattern of speech where they're like gentlemen or they say these things like, "Oh, hey guys," or stuff like that. So I look for stuff like that. And the biggest thing that has helped me is talking about their story. Because when they start talking about their story and things they've done, you get a better sense of their personality. Like me talking on this podcast, you probably got a better sense of my personality because of some of the stuff I've shared. That's a huge thing is talking about people's story. And that also gives me content to write. But I just get a really good sense of who this person is, what are their values, stuff like that.

And then from there, I don't have this crazy process. I was just like, okay, he's kind of more serious so I'm going to write in this tone. And then what I found at least, by writing their story, that does the heavy lifting for you. I mean, because if you write in a certain tone and you write their story, I think people fill in the blanks about the narrative or the way the person's saying it. And so I put less emphasis on, oh, I got to nail this person's pattern of speech to the T, and more focus on their story, their tonality, in a sense, their personality a little bit and focus on that.

But yeah, I think a lot of people over-complicate it and they're like, "Oh, I just need to nail it to the T. And oh, I need to study them day in and day out." I haven't run into the issue where people think, "Oh, this isn't that person." It's mainly just, okay, write their story. What's their main vibe? Is it serious, funny, playful, all that? Maybe do they got a certain pattern of speech where they say gentlemen or whatever, they talk in a certain way.

Chris:

Right.

Dakota:

Yeah

Chris:

A lot of people say, "I don't have a story, I don't have an interesting thing." And so when you say, "I'm going to tell your story," what kind of patterns have you seen that make for compelling stories? I love to teach stories and talk about stories, so I'm really curious about what you do as a ghost writer.

Dakota:

Yeah, I think the most important part is all stories revolve around change. It's all great stories, from my perspective. Let's say how I started from socially anxious and ended up confident. Or I started out broke and I ended up wealthy. It's like you want to look at where you're at now and then that gives you a good idea where to start. So usually most great stories are about transformation. So if you see any good movie, okay, where are they starting? Who is this person? Maybe they're a naive boy that doesn't value hard work. And then at the end of the story, okay, now they're this more mature person, they understand the value of hard work and they've evolved all this way. It creates that arc. When you start here, arc, okay, I learned this, it's the hero's journey kind of thing.

That's the biggest thing I always look for is, okay, what's the worst spot you were in? What I give them the list. What are some of the biggest mistakes you've made in life or biggest pitfalls, what's your worst moments? And then I get them to talk about it and then how they overcame that. It's overcoming that struggle that really resonates with people. So maybe people don't resonate with my story of father smoking crack and not being there, but they resonate with the struggle of, oh, my father wasn't emotionally available for me. And it's that struggle. People relate with emotions and overcoming struggles, so if you can target that, sure, maybe not the exact context they won't relate to, but the feeling of it, they do. So the main thing is transformation. Always want to focus on transformation. I started here, I went there.

Chris:

And when you find that story and you are able to tell it across, I assume some kind of thread on Twitter, what else are you writing about then? I mean, now I'm enrolled in your story, does it have to be an exchange of values? Because when you write about, here's 40 things that I learned that you won't learn in college, or here's how you write better and get more engagement, here's how you get a lot of people to look at your... whatever it is. So you're exchanging value from their time and attention. In your framework so far, it's like we get the tone of voice, the patterns of speech and their values and their story. What is the next pieces of content revolving around?

Dakota:

Yeah. I look at it through the lens of three pillars. So people either want be validated, so you can validate their opinions or you tell them, "It's okay to be like this." Or confirmation bias, you can do stuff like that. They want to be educated, so that would be more value. This is how you do X, Y, and Z. So validated, educated, or they want to be entertained. So that could be memes. But those are the three pillars I kind of think of it just to simplify it. And I just rotate it between that.

And the way I think of it is, okay, to go into it even further, so you got personal content. So that's your stories, that's your opinions, your worldviews, stuff like that. So that's the personal pillar. And then you have authority, which is more the educate, the value stuff. This is how you do X, y, z. It can even be how I did big achievement step by step. So it's kind of a personal and an authority, so you can see how you mix the two.

And then there's the growth content, that's more of the general broad stuff, that maybe 10 Google chrome extensions that you'll love or stuff... I don't know, the more general stuff that gets eyes on your account. But mix mixing those three, the personal authority, the growth content, and you just rotate those, I feel like that's what gives you the best bang for your buck, because you're also developing a relationship with your audience through the personal, you're giving them the value, which is raising your authority and then you have the growth content that mainly gets eyes on your account. So if you just think of it through that lens and just rotate, then I think you're good. Me personally, I think to be valued, for someone to value you, you need to give value. So for me, I try to write one actionable piece of advice every day. Aside from that, I write about whatever. That's my basic framework. I like to keep things simple because I think it scales better. So it's like, okay, one piece of actionable advice every day. I can do that. Everything else, whatever.

Chris:

So the growth piece is kind of like the candy because it's like everybody likes candy and you'll come in for that. And then the values, in terms of education, that's how you build your authority. Because ultimately you need followers who are interested in what it is that you can help them solve. And then your story, in validating them, it's like you said, it's affirming them. Maybe it's a little bit of confirmation bias, like, it's okay to fail because sometimes we hit that point. It's like we've all failed. Okay, I get it. I feel seen and heard. And you're rotating between these three pieces of content. Are you able to ghost write based on just one hour interview? Is that all it takes?

Dakota:

I try to do once a month with clients, but I can also do it without interview. I just pretty much need, okay, what are the topics you want to write about? So if I have a fitness account and I want to talk about productivity, I want to talk about sleep, blah blah blah blah blah. It's like okay, I have all these content pillars. Now I'll just do research and produce content on that. Because I have my frameworks, my writing frameworks I follow, so I just need the ideas in there. And then I just apply the frameworks and Bob's your uncle.

But yeah, there's some clients, I just never hop on a call with them. I'm just like, okay, I just know what this person wants stuff written about and I'll write that. I mean, sure, I can't really write much personal stuff about them in that case if I can't interview them, I mean that's definitely not needed. It's definitely a great thing to have if you want to build a strong personal brand is sharing your story. But some people, they just don't care. They kind of see it more as a business rather than having a mission with their personal brand. That's totally fine. But I think if you want to really impact people's lives and really move them emotionally, I think you do need to talk about your story. And I think that creates a community, not a following. You're building a brand, not a following. And sharing your story is huge for that.

Chris:

So what you shared with me was pretty insightful because for a long time I'm just mostly focused on the education part, I just want to give value. I don't want to talk about myself and don't tell my story. And then there was this barrier that I was building between who I am as a human being and the content that I create. So I incorporate the stories. And then I'm doing more content these days about affirming and validating, saying we all have low points, we all fumble, we all fall. And to just let people know that we're all human and it's this human experience that we're living through. The thing I don't do enough of is this growth content. And now you know why my account is not growing. Dakota, you're a genius. You don't do growth content, that's why you're not growing. I get it.

Dakota:

It's that simple, just go viral, right?

Chris:

Yeah, just go viral. And we're all guilty of this, we'll see something in our feed, it's kind of funny. It's not going to change our life, but it's just like, okay, I get it and you see it's got 4,000 likes or retweets or whatever. And okay, we need to have the candy from time to time if we want to grow, right?

Dakota:

Exactly. I think about the mission, okay, what am I trying to do here? And then, I mean a lot of people, to give them what they need to hear, you need to give them what they want to hear. The way I see Twitter or social media, it's top of funnel. So a lot of the stuff I write is more basic. I mean I definitely do the personal and authority stuff, but you need to get people into your ecosystem. And once you have them in your ecosystem, that's when you can start raising their level of awareness. Like marketing, you start talking about these concepts and introducing them to different stuff. Because you just start talking about, "Oh, you need to do X, Y, Z." And they're going to get overwhelmed, like, "What is this? I don't even know." So you slowly bring them in. Maybe you bring them into your newsletter where you can talk to them a bit more intimately. Or you them funnel into your podcast where you can go more in depth with stuff. But it all starts with that top of funnel where you just bring them first and it's like, okay, kind of introduce them to this. And then you can really start to impact them, in my opinion.

Chris:

That makes a lot of sense when you say it like that. What is the greatest stretch you've had to make in terms of pretending to be someone else? Look, you look at you and you say, this guy goes to the gym. So a health fitness person, there's not much of a stretch there, it's what you do and are interested in anyways. Tell me an account that you've written for that is so not you, so I can see where you take this. And then give me some examples of telling their story or how you were able to take a piece of content that is broad but make it in their tone of voice?

Dakota:

I relate to a lot of my clients in different aspects. One notable one is an award-winning male porn star. But it's not like-

Chris:

Oh wait, wait, hold on, this is a big stretch, right?

Dakota:

... I mean, I got my OnlyFans that subscribe for $10 a month. I mean, stuff like that, just kind of outlandish. I relate to his personality in some ways. And I'm not posting any not safe for work content, it's self improvement stuff. But I definitely got to lean into certain aspects of my personality and beliefs and exaggerate it in a lot of ways for some people. I've written for e-com people in the past and I stopped working with them, because it's just so bland. And I don't know if you can tell, I'm more, I don't know, I like being more out there and saying more interesting things other than just bland e-com stuff. There's not too many clients I'd say it's been a crazy stretch. It's mainly just leaning into or exaggerating certain parts of me.

Chris:

So do you take that as a badge of honor that I could pretend to be something I'm totally not? Or do you feel like that that's a poor fit for you and you shouldn't be doing that?

Dakota:

Well, for so many years I pretended to be someone that I wasn't. So I felt like an imposter and I pretended to be confident in a lot of ways and just like that. So in a sense it's kind of natural. It sounds bad to say. But I also recognize I don't know everything and I could be completely wrong with my perspectives on the world. And who am I to say, "Oh, your perspective is wrong?" So it's my job as a writer to best convey that person's perspective, regardless of what I believe. And I want nothing but the best for my clients. I want to over deliver and I believe they have the right to tell people what they believe. And again, my biggest value's freedom. I'm so open to everyone's different perspectives. I may not agree with them, but I think everyone has their right and their freedom to try to impact or change the world in how they see fit, as long as it's not hurting anybody or bring anyone down.

Yeah, I do like my ability to morph myself into these different positions, but I'm good at compartmentalizing. It's like, okay, I believe this, but I got to write in this character. It's kind of like actors.

Chris:

Yeah, I wrote that word acting down. Because you said pretend, and some people that don't like that term, but that's what actors do.

Dakota:

Yeah, exactly.

Chris:

They embody the person and they leave themselves aside, they become very emotionally vulnerable and then they react to what's going on. And that's what you are able to do. I want to ask you this question, and I think it was Blair Enns who said this, he said that all strategy is autobiographical, we recommend people do things that have worked for us. So this worked for us and therefore might work for you. Who knows? So what is the correlation between physical fitness and health and success?

Dakota:

Oh man. When I first started working out, I was running away from the person that I currently was. I was fat, I was very socially anxious. I didn't like myself. And so that motivated me to go to the gym and I had that deep pain and so I went hard at the gym. I worked out till I threw up, I was going to YMCA boot camps. It was crazy, I just went balls to the wall all the time. And I didn't see results for the first few months really. I just knew I'm just going to do this. I don't know where this is going to lead, I just need to take some kind of action and just go hard at this.

So I was probably five, six months in and I remember looking in the mirror one day and it was around my stomach I saw some definition. And I was so blown away. I legit looked in the mirror for a good 20 minutes just flexing. Yeah, no big deal. All that stuff. I was so proud of myself. And that's when it really formed a new belief in me. I was like, okay, if I put in all these hours of work just to get 1% better, that's huge. That just meant the world to me. And it formed a new belief for me, it's like, if you put in all these hours of work just to get 1% better, I mean that's huge. And it showed me, okay, you got to have a long term vision and play the long game if you really want to be successful. Because so many people, they just quit after a week or two. And that's why they don't see results because they're just not consistent. They just go really intense and then just stop because they don't see results.

But if you can have that longer term vision and really just put in the work, and sure, maybe it's a 1% difference, but it's a difference and you're moving towards the person you want to become, I mean, that's applicable to all areas of life. 100%, that shaped my whole life was just having that moment where it's like, oh my God, okay, if I put in all these hours to get this result, let's keep going with this. And then it just compounds over time.

It's the same with Twitter. First three months I only grew to 750 followers and that's when I just took a step back, it's like, oh, okay, this isn't that good. But I'm going to keep trying and figuring this out. And then that's when I just took a step back, changed my account to a writing account, and then within 40 days I was at 1000 followers. So if I just gave up like, oh, I'm just not meant for Twitter, then I wouldn't be here today. Twitter is for my whole business and most of my life right now. So it's just having that ability to... I mean, just being consistent. And being consistent at the right thing too. A lot of people, maybe they're consistent, but they don't use the feedback they're getting from their environment to change things and then they're just hitting their head at a wall. But fitness definitely formed my foundations for a lot of things.

Chris:

Wonderful. I mean, just before I forget, if people don't follow you on Instagram, then they'll know exactly what you're talking about, how Twitter is the foundation of your social existence and your business. Cause you essentially just take your tweets, screen, capture them, and string them together to make a carousel on Instagram. And I believe you have more followers on Instagram than you do on Twitter, right?

Dakota:

Yeah, that was nuts.

Chris:

So you're getting way more love on Instagram than you are on Twitter.

Dakota:

Yeah, it blew my mind how fast you can grow on Instagram. It was crazy. I mean less so now, but it was nuts.

Chris:

Right. Yeah. Okay. Your health, basically what you put in your body and how you spend your energy are one of the few things you can actually control in this world. I think all the other control's an illusion. And you're saying if you put in the work, if it's just 1% improvement, I don't know if you've seen this math formula before, but they take one and they improve it by 1%. So it's 1.01 and they take it to the 365th power and it equals some big number. And isn't that amazing? And the opposite is true of too. If you do 1% less, then it's 0.9, whatever, .99 or whatever it is, and to the 365th power. And you see that it's diminished and it's the power of just showing up every day, just looking for that small improvement. And before you know it, you've got abs, then you've got muscles, then you have a whole new life and a new outlook. You are able to rebuild yourself.

And I think there is some correlation here between really successful, high net worth people and how they take care of this mortal coil, their frame. Jeff Bezos was a really nerdy dude, became the world's richest man for a period of time. Then there's pictures of him emerging, it's like the guy's yoked walking around. It's ridiculous. And Dana White recently was just spreading the rounds on the internet about when he took off his shirt and he is like, oh my God, I thought he was a fat dude, but he's really muscular under all that. So there is this thing about performance, discipline, motivation, playing the long game. So if anybody's looking to reinvent their life, start with the things you can control. It'll teach you a lot about yourself and probably what you're capable of.

Okay. I got two more questions, they're a little bit more tactical because we heard your story, we're inspired and we even have business models now to think about that we weren't aware before. So you're really good at writing copy. What are five things that people need to do to avoid writing really crappy copy?

Dakota:

First off, you need to simplify. A lot of people, they want to try to sound smart. I think college and school does a bad job at encouraging people. But I mean, you want to replace any big words. Like nonplussed, I mean that means confused, say confused, not nonplus. Say use, not utilize. Use simple language and ideally use language that fifth grade or below could understand. And the way you can use that is use a software, my favorite is ProWritingAid. You can analyze the grade level of your writing. There's also the Hemingway App. So I'd use those to get that feedback. And just write at a simple and clear manner. Because if people are confused, they're not going to understand your message and their attention spans will go onto the next TikTok or tweet or whatever. So that's very, very crucial.

Storytelling, using stories in your writing because people are attracted, they're emotionally moved by stories and it resonates with people a lot more when you can present information with stories. Because if people wanted information, they'd Google stuff. So that's why I think storytelling is one of the most powerful tools you can use. That's something I'm starting to dive more into.

Let's see, what else? Shortening a lot of your sentences or paragraphs. I mean, again, with school, they tell you you need a 3000 words minimum. I mean, you're competing with attention today. If you're a creator, if I'm on Twitter and I see all this text, it's like, oh no, that's too much effort. Let's go onto the next to get my dopamine hit. So you need to really shorten your sentences, your content, without taking away from the message cut whatever doesn't move your message forward. Using the words you and your, talking to your reader, not at your reader. So, "Hey people, do you want to lose weight?" Or instead you could say, "Hey, are you looking to lose weight?" See how it's way more engaging when you're talking to someone, not at them, it's a lecture?

Chris:

How about this? How powerful is the active voice versus the passive voice?

Dakota:

I find it more engaging to use active. People like to sit on passive voice, but there is a place with passive voice. So if someone's a victim of something, if you use passive voice, then it's more impactful because it just feels like it's happening to somebody, opposed to them doing something. So that's I think the one exception.

Chris:

Can you find an example where that's really clear?

Dakota:

Yeah, the boy ate the apple. So that's active voice, because the boy is performing the action. Instead of the apple was eaten by the boy. So if you go passive, the apple is eaten by the boy, then I mean it's longer. It's harder to visualize too, because when you look at somebody, you typically see the person taking the action, not the action being performed by the person. Yeah, it's a hard rule to conceptualize, but that's, yeah, like that.

Chris:

Okay, maybe we don't use that one as an example, but that was a hard one. Give me another fifth one. Give me the no brainer, here we go.

Dakota:

Yeah, you could use numbers. Use numbers in your writing. It's a huge one. People are attracted to numbers, specifically odd numbers like 3, 7, 5. I forget the reasoning behind that. But use numbers because say if I'm on Twitter and I'm scrolling and I see all this text, but if I see a number, that's going to stand out, same with a dollar sign or a percentage sign. So it's like a pattern disrupt. So if you can do that, that's huge. I use numbers in pretty much all my headlines. And yeah, there's so many, but yeah. Oh, and get really good at capturing attention, get really good at headlines. That's probably number one is get really good at headlines because if you can't capture attention, you're just done. If they don't read your first line, they won't read your last line or your second line. So you really need to study headlines and I'd study the great copywriters and go that route. But yeah.

Chris:

Okay. So that's kind of like the example is 23 sentences that'll improve your writing more than 12 years of English class. You used it twice. It's such a good rule, you double dipped on that one.

Dakota:

I've used it multiple times. I've used marketing, all that. Okay, let me break this down. Okay, so I have this formula for writing viral headlines. It's been a while since I've recited it. But you want to make the benefit as big as possible. So improve your writing more than 12 years or make you... I had one that was like 47 sentences that'll make you more money than a four year marketing degree. So big benefit is make you more money than a four year degree. You want the effort to seem really low. So 47 sentences, that effort's so low, like, oh, I just got to read 47 sentences to get this big benefit. And then relevant, so it has to be relevant to your audience. So if I start talking about basketball to an audience full of writers, they're not going to care. So you have to make sure your content matches your audience. And then reach, you just need to distribute the content. So you need to get eyes on it because if you have the best content in the world and no one reads it, it doesn't matter. So you need those four elements. So make the benefit's huge, make the perceived effort really low, make sure it's relevant to your audience, and then make sure you have good reach/distribution.

Chris:

So without seeing the distribution, your example, 47 sentences that'll make you more money then a four your marketing degree puts all those principles in play. The big benefit, make a lot of money. The low effort is 47 sentences relative to four year market degree. And relevant is people who are looking to study marketing are just looking to make money. So just it's tied together, right?

Dakota:

Yeah, exactly. I'm targeting a benefit, right? Making money is the benefit, opposed to here are 47 marketing tips. It's more appealing to say, oh, it'll make you more money. So you always want to look at, okay, what's the impact of this? What's the impact of whatever you're talking about? And think about the end result. Because at the end of the day, that's what people want is the benefit. They don't want to, I don't know, they don't want to get fit. They want to increase their status or they want to become more confident or they want to get more energy, stuff like that.

Chris:

Okay, last question for you Dakota. Thanks for doing this with me.

Dakota:

Yes.

Chris:

Here we go. This one should be an easy for you. Here we go. What are three books someone can read to learn to write better, to be a better storyteller? And then why? Your three favorite books if I want to improve writing? I knew, so throwing you a soft ball, here we go.

Dakota:

I just did a reel on this. So my number one favorite book is Writing Tools by Roy Peter Clark. That one, there's a lot of writing books, but that one I think just nails it on the head with how it explains different rules. It teaches you how to cut the fluff, teaches you different rules, rules like how to structure your writing in an engaging way. It's a masterclass. I would highly suggest just writing in general that book is amazing.

For storytelling, Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks, I'm relistening to it right now. That is absolutely amazing for showing you the theory of storytelling, but also giving you the tools of how to apply it and how to think about it. So that's amazing.

And then if you want to go more copywriting and learn the psychology behind writing, Cashvertising is absolutely great. A great beginner book. And I mean, covers pretty much most of what you need to know and gives you a great overview of why people do things and so much actionable stuff in there that I incorporate in all my tweets and writing. So I think if you read those three books, you'll learn a lot, you'll be like 80% there.

Chris:

Fantastic. Well, it's really fun having this conversation with you. For people who are intrigued by this young person who's got all these ideas about writing, who's been able to do a whole bunch of different things in a relatively short amount of time, how do people find out more about you? Since you're not taking a more clients, you mentioned you're trying to get out of the agency work, so there must be something else you're thinking about?

Dakota:

Yeah, I'm actually working on a done with you offer. So instead of doing the work for people, I'm going to just do it with them, give them everything I know and just grow them crazy that way. But yeah, I'm still working on that, but I will-

Chris:

Is that a course or something?

Dakota:

... No, I want to really get people results so I'm going to actually have a, it's going to be a group where I'm going to actually hop on calls with people.

Chris:

I see.

Dakota:

Maybe a course down the line. But right now I just want to really find out people's pain points and struggles and all that and really help them and get great results for them. And I will still have the agency, it's just I won't be as involved, but we'll still have that going. But yeah, I'm on Twitter @WrongsToWrite like you're writing, W-R-I-T-E. And then I'm on Instagram. I'm changing my username because people are getting scammed, so I'm buying a username. It'll be @DKota, so that will be my Instagram when this gets aired, I imagine.

Chris:

Okay. Awesome. Thanks so much.

Dakota:

Absolutely. Yeah, I really appreciate you having me. This is actually really surreal for me to be on this podcast. I really appreciate all the content you put out and I still consume your content, so really appreciate how you've been paving the way for a lot of creators.

Chris:

Well, thanks so much.

Dakota:

I'm Dakota Robertson and you are listening to The Futur.

Greg Gunn:

Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Christ Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony Barro for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music.

If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on Apple Podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to TheFutur.com/HeyChris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit TheFutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

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Speaker 7:

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