Emmanuel:

Now it is your turn. And what I mean by this is it doesn't matter if you started in this industry six weeks ago or if you've been at it for 20 years, you have an opportunity to have a voice, you have an opportunity to make an impact, to make a contribution, to quote Seth Godin "It is always your turn. It is always time for you to step in. So don't be shy, make a contribution, voice your opinion and take risks because in the long run I know you will be rewarded."

Chris:

I have the privilege and pleasure to speak to Emmanuel today, and I think you're all going to want to lean in, especially if you want to learn more about how to build a brand in today's 21st century culture. One that is personally and socially and culturally relevant to the audience and communities you serve. And this is going to be something that I think it's going to be super actionable. And even though my guest is a very bright gentleman, highly educated person, deep into research, all the things that I'm not, just full disclosure, I'm looking forward to geeking out with him.

Emmanuel, welcome to the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit of your backstory please?

Emmanuel:

Thank you, Chris, for having me on the show and this opportunity to connect with you and your community. And by the way, you're selling yourself short because you and I were just chatting offline about your contribution to our industry through your learning platform. Anyway, my name's Emmanuel Probst and I'm the global lead for brand thought leadership at Ipsos. Ipsos is one of the largest, if not the largest market research agency in the world. I'm also an adjunct professor at UCLA where I teach consumer market research and last but not least, I'm a writer. My latest book, Assemblage: The Art and Science of Brand Transformation is coming out now.

Chris:

Okay, now it will not escape our listeners or our viewers that you have an accent Are you French? Where are you from? Where does this accent come from?

Emmanuel:

I have a very slight accent from time to time, Chris. It's a very subtle accent. So [inaudible 00:02:28].

Chris:

Barely noticeable.

Emmanuel:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I sometimes try to pretend that I'm from Paris, Texas or Iowa or we have a number of destination. New Jersey is another one. And in also [inaudible 00:02:42]. I grew up in France and I spent the first 21 years of my life in France. I then booked a one-way ticket to London and I departed on April 15th, 2001. And this train ticket is actually framed in my living room and I never looked back. It was indeed a one-way ticket. I learned English. I was already 21 when I started learning, hence the accent is still there. There's nothing I can do. Well, maybe there's something I can do about it, but obviously I've not addressed this yet.

Chris:

What compelled you to go to London on a one-way ticket?

Emmanuel:

As a teenager, I had been to London and I thought the city was vibrant and diverse and progressive. We would see things in London at the time, I mean we still do, but that were very, very, very progressive in terms of the ideas, the creativity and the tolerance also for people from different culture and different ethnic backgrounds and different sexual orientation. I don't know if we take this for granted today, but let's say it's more accepted and part of our culture, at the time it was literally outlandish. I was attracted to the light. Chris, for my first book, Brand Hacks, I had interviewed director from the museum of neon sign and I had asked him "Why do people love neon signs? Young people, older people." And he had told me, "Because we are attracted to light and nothing shines brighter than a neon." And that's why it's also so Instagramable. And so we are cavemen at heart and we are attracted to light. In hindsight, 22 years down the line, that's what attracted me to London. This city was glowing.

Chris:

What a wonderful story and way to explain that. It's probably the most poetic and very French way to explain a story about why you went to London.

Okay. You're obviously not in London today. You're out here, aren't you?

Emmanuel:

Indeed. I live in Los Angeles, as I believe you do Chris and enjoying everything the city has to offer besides traffic.

Chris:

And what compelled you to come to LA?

Emmanuel:

So I spent almost six years in London. I left in 2006. We moved to Chicago at the time. And fast tracking to nine years ago, I had a lot of clients on the West Coast and here again, I thought the West Coast was very progressive in terms of culture but also in terms of business practices. Put it this way, if you look at the debate in Europe, it's inspired by what the West Coast do. If you want to predict what's going to be had in branding, in brand strategy and in technology in Europe in two years, you don't have to have a crystal ball, you just have to look at what's going on the West Coast now. So that's why I came here, just like people who want to work in fashion should move to Paris and people who want to become expert in bourbon should move to Kentucky. It's for the same reason I moved to Los Angeles, because it was a very vibrant scene for anything that had to do with media, entertainment, culture, research, branding.

Chris:

Beautiful. Okay, you mentioned a lot of different things here. You've written not one but two books. One is called Assemblage and the other one's called Brand Hacks. So you've spent a lot of time researching, thinking, talking, teaching, things branding. Here's what I'd love to do, and I know this about you, I think if I be maybe so presumptive here is there's the academic conversation that people have about branding and marketing and behavior psychology, but I want to take it to the streets. I want to talk about things that are super actionable in case someone's listening to this and they run a multimillion-dollar company or they are a service provider trying to help multimillion-dollar companies get bigger and better. I just want to just geek out with you, so if you don't mind, I want to just drag you into the design [inaudible 00:06:57], talk a little bit about branding. First of all, do you have a different or unique take on branding? Let's start there.

Emmanuel:

I do because I start from a perspective of consumer psychology. And what you said about academia is very accurate. There are a lot of great ideas in academia yet most of the time they are too complicated to digest and not very actionable. And my perspective and my writing and my purpose if you will, is we have plenty of great brand strategists in the United States. What I bring that's different is this perspective for consumer of psychology. So starts from the standpoint of people, not even consumers, what are people trying to achieve? What do they seek? What do they want? From there, we build brands that help people achieve this transformation become who they really want to be.

Chris:

So I want to tap into your big brain then. Let's start with people. What do people in the 21st century, what are they really looking for? How do they find meaning? How do they find purpose and how does that connect to what we can learn in terms of understand the psychology and then how we can help them fulfill those goals?

Emmanuel:

And that's why I'm happy to boil down all the academia to one very simple statement. People don't care about most brands. Most people don't care about most brands. There are very few brands that command loyalty or even duration if you will. So maybe Apple is one, maybe Patagonia, but there are very, very few brands. What people seek is purpose, it's meaning, it's transformation. What I mean by transformation is who am I and who do I want to become? And the role of the brand, that's where my perspective is different. And that's where the book guides you. The role of the brand is to facilitate this transformation, meaning, who am I, who do I want to become? And also I expect the brand to make a positive impact on my community, on the world around me, on the world at large.

A very important reminder, it should go without saying, but the brand is not the hero. The hero is not even consumers, it's people. And the brand is expected to deliver great products that are reliable, that are priced accordingly. That's fine. Beyond that, brands are expected to contribute to this transformation, make this positive impact on the economy, on the world, on sustainability, on individuals.

Chris:

There's a lot there that you've said and I love it because it might get real fiery. It might get a little spicy in a second here. So it's quite alarming for a person who spends so much time thinking, teaching and talking about branding that you say that most people actually don't care and they don't have the same loyalty to the brands as we might think. There are exceptions and you mentioned a couple. So how do we reconcile that? Why aren't they as loyal or why don't they care as much about brands as we might want them to? What's driving this?

Emmanuel:

Yeah, you said it was alarming consider we teach you about brands, and I will slightly reframe this by saying it's humbling. It's humbling to know that most brands don't have a strong enough emotional component, if you will, but that's where you come in, Chris, with your teaching. That's where we come in as marketing professionals. That's where we want to create brands that faster, a stronger emotional engagement, a stronger emotional connection with the audience, with people. And that's the role we have to play. We are not here just to move products. Of course we are, of course we're for profit businesses and we're here to sell and to make a profit. There's nothing wrong with this. We also have the opportunity of making a larger contribution as marketing professionals and this contribution is to help people becoming who they want to be and to help the world be a better place.

In the conclusion of my latest book Assemblage, I talk about traditionally on Madison Avenue in the seventies, in the sixties, advertising was about selling cigarettes and alcohol. Most of it. Well, maybe it still is, but we are not just the bad guys here. We really have the opportunity to market electric cars and the opportunity to assist health businesses with economic recovery, for example, to do business after COVID. We have the opportunity to develop only channel brands and so on and so forth. So we have an opportunity to impact people and the world in a positive fashion. And this book shows you how.

Chris:

People in my community, mostly visual designers, often use the word brand inappropriately because it seems to be a buzzword. I think a lot of them innocently use it or maybe even subconsciously use the word brand as part of their services because they think it's more prestigious, it has a luster to it that they want to project out into the world. So we talked a little bit about what branding might be and in a humbling point of view, what is brand not and what is branding not, I'd like to talk a little bit about that so that we're setting the table, if you will.

Emmanuel:

A brand is not something static. A brand is not something that is set in stone. A brand is not something you can take for granted. We have many examples of brands that were very strong and either disappeared or are getting very, very challenged. A brand is a set of attributes, A brand is what people say it is. We're going back to this world of let's be humble as brand strategists. I was going to say it doesn't matter what you think the brand is, Mr. Brand Strategist, of course it does, but what's most important is how does your audience perceive the brand? And that's why also there is this chapter in the book that's called Perception is the Truth. What is important is not the truth, is not the facts, is what people perceive the brand to be, what people perceive the truth to be. And in a way what we want this truth to be as individuals.

I'm digressing a little bit, but a brand is what people say it is, and a brand is not something static. A brand is dynamic and it's importantly a co-creation between the brand strategists and the audience as opposed to a brand manager, CMO brand strategist being dictatorial and telling the audience this is what my brand is about.

Chris:

I would love to pick up the conversation right there, is that it's co-created because if it lives in the hearts and minds of your audience, we can't control people so we're both in this plate together. And a brain has to live up to that, otherwise the perception and perception is reality is misaligned with what you think it is. I've either read or heard people say this, is that companies no longer control brands, customers or people do. So I've had this recent phenomenon happen with me personally where people openly criticize me and say, "Chris, the decisions that you're making, the products and the courses and the workshops that you're running are going against your mission. So my first reaction is how do you even know what my mission is and who are you to presume?" But this is an example of you grow an audience and then they tell you what the brand is now. It's like there's this tug of war. So I would love to get any insight or feedback that you have about something like this.

Emmanuel:

Yeah, I think no matter how big, how small of a brand and the endeavor, as the leader, you decide on the foundation of your brand, you are in control of what you stand for and what you aim to achieve. However, from there it becomes a co-creation process with the audience. I don't want to venture to talk too much about your brand, Chris, because obviously I don't know your business well enough, but here's how I think it applies to you. Your mission is to educate people and to educate a certain number of people about branding, about the graphic arts and the industry. And you're here to inspire and to equip people with skills. So that's your mission and that is the part... That's the foundation that is non-negotiable if you will. Next in the implementation of this mission, if you tell me that people are giving you feedback on a specific course, for example, or a specific package, a specific bundle you've been selling, well, that's okay. That's an articulation of a brand that does not defeat nor even challenge the purpose of your mission.

So in the world of branding and see whether we apply this to your business, Chris, or to a ginormous brand like Dove or any... Hellmann's mayonnaise if you will, to pick in the [inaudible 00:16:22] portfolio, the foundation is the same. What I mean by this is the big idea is what you want it to be, the overarching statement, the overarching purpose, that is your decision. The articulation of it though, it can go to TikTok, it can go to your students, it could be a co-creation process with people on LinkedIn, you name it.

Chris:

I love your explanation of that. It's given me something new to think about because I was wrestling with this concept. So if you're in a space, if you make a product, you perform a service, people are going to have an opinion about the articulation, what it is that you actually delivered and maybe they'll question your tactics, but what's nonnegotiable is the mission, and this is what I was personally reacting to. It's like how do you know? I have my mission, I'm going to try different things and you don't understand that, so go ahead and critique the articulation of it, but I'm still on course. And so they're confusing the two. They're saying the mission is wrong, but what they're really saying is this product the way I perceive it goes against the mission, they're questioning the articulation. Right?

Emmanuel:

Well, I'm listening to your experience, Chris. I also think we have a lot of metrics and we can have a lot of data to gauge people and consumers. We do [inaudible 00:17:38] all day long and that's very important. With all that said, there is one very basic tests that a brand cannot fail is do people understand what you're trying to do here? Do they understand the benefit to them?

Let me take an example. I'm not intimately familiar with your brand, yet I think I could accurately articulate what you're trying to achieve. You're here to educate and inspire people and provide them with skills that they can act upon. Conversely, not to pick on Meta, but I still don't understand how the metaverse benefits me as a user despite hundreds of millions of dollars in product development. And I'm not saying it's not going to become a thing and I'm respectful of the innovation and the challenge that Meta sets for itself. So I commend their intent as an enterprise, as a company, but I couldn't... After reading dozens of articles about Meta, I cannot articulate how it benefits me. And after only 4, 5, 6 days of experimenting with ChatGPT, I already understand what ChatGPT can do for me and how it can benefit me. It's that simple. It should be that simple. It should be that simple. It has to be a bumper sticker statement.

Chris:

If it takes us too far off, you let me know and we don't have to do this part but, because I'm quite curious about Meta and that we saw Mark Zuckerberg, a very bright person, create a product that's used and beloved by lots of people and it's reflected in the stock and how much money they make. And then somewhere a couple years ago, it seems like they took a couple of wrong turns on the road so to speak, and their stock is being punished for it and it's creating a lot of confusion despite the amount of buzz they were able to generate in Meta space, the Metaverse and Web3, it's like we're still scratching our head like, "Wait, what is this?" And no doubt they're really smart people and they have the resources. Do you think there's a correlation between the lack of clarity of benefit to our perception or the value that we now see that Meta may or may not bring to us?

Emmanuel:

100%. I remember the first time I joined Facebook, I lived in Chicago at the time. It took me seven minutes to understand the benefit of Facebook. The benefit was to connect and reconnect with my friends and family all over world and to exchange information, formal or informal. Period. That's what Facebook did for me. Again, I think no matter how large or how small the company, it applies when you employ something like 70 or 80,000 people, but it also applies if you're an independent craft brewery in California, what are you trying to achieve? How does your product benefit the user? What is the emotional dimension you're going to communicate to develop this unique, hopefully intimate, at least meaningful relationship with the audience? And what is the benefit to the user that is likely the most important thing?

Chris:

Can I jump in on the craft brewery? Can I ask you some questions as a hypothetical?

Emmanuel:

Yeah.

Chris:

Okay. So craft brewery, I think no matter where you are, you can understand what the business is. Okay, so we make some kind of premium blend alcoholic beverage and it's small batches. So you say the transformation, the meaning, the purpose, the emotional connection, the dimension to which we're going to communicate on, how might somebody, if they're in this space, that they do something that isn't radically different than the next person? And how do I begin to have that dialogue? How do I give meaning to this beverage?

Emmanuel:

What's radically different is not so much what's inside the can. The same reasoning applies to bourbon or to vodka. And to so many products. It'd be so hard for any of us to distinguish between two [inaudible 00:21:48] of vodka. What's different is the story you have to tell and how you're going to relate to your community. As a craft brewery, how did you get about establishing your brewery? What is your personal story that led you to creating this blend? How do you go about your craft? Maybe you use local ingredients, maybe you put an emphasis on fruits, maybe you have a story to tell about, well, you cannot see colors for example, and therefore you have an emphasis on taste. How do you connect with your local community? Maybe you decided to partner with a local grocery store or to partner with a local school and you have a story to tell about benefiting the local community.

That's what in my experience and in my opinion is going to differentiate your product. It would be very hard to differentiate product in a blind test. It's all about this connection, this story you have to tell.

Chris:

Okay, so I'm starting to understand this a little bit better. There's the origin story about why you did this and if there's anything that's unique there, you tell that story. Talking about how ingredients are sourced and how you're a member of the community, so there's some social aspects to this cultural things that you're communicating. Is there another emotional dimension that that is being touched upon here that I'm missing here? What else is there?

Emmanuel:

When it comes down to very small businesses, and I think that's where you're going with this Chris is authenticity and imperfection. And when you go to Starbucks, the products, [inaudible 00:23:29] non-fat latte is exactly the same in Calabasas, California as it will be in Manhattan, Paris or Shanghai, and that's fine. My point is that's what you buy. You buy a product that is extremely consistent. In craft, in a very small business, I think you'll have to be proud of the fact that this batch might taste a little bit different from the batch you did yesterday or last week or a month ago, and that's where imperfect is perfect. It's the authenticity.

Now, let's think of very big brands, Chris. You see this in beauty, whereby perfection as depicted by advertising from the likes of Victoria's Secret 10 years ago is no longer okay. We know, we accept and we praise the fact that different people have different bodies and that's a form of beauty. What I'm trying to do for you here, Chris, and for our listeners today, is to establish that the opportunity for a very small craft brewery in California with five employees is just as compelling as it is for a very large brand like Victoria's Secret, is to relate on what is authentic, what is genuine. People like themselves. Tell me that you understand me and help me transform in who I want to become. That's what I want from a local brewery.

Chris:

I think what I'm hearing, to try to simplify my brain, is you are saying, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, lean into what makes you different. I think what happens in society is we try to be like the next biggest competitor and so we're losing a lot of uniqueness. The term authenticity is used a lot. The practical application is what makes you different, what makes you unique and instead of trying to be like the other people, be more like yourself. And that's I think where authenticity comes to play, right? Did I get this right?

Emmanuel:

You got this right. And that's where the role of marketers is so important because no offense, but most of the time it'll be very hard to differentiate on the product and just on the product. And the opportunity for our listeners that operate small businesses and don't have $100 million to [inaudible 00:25:54] into advertising this year is really to think it's not business, it's personal. And what I mean by this is people, again, not consumers, people are lonely in their personal lives and they feel overwhelmed with choices as consumers. And the opportunity for new small businesses is to personify the brand, to humanize the brand so that these products are relatable in the minds of consumers.

Chris:

I love that twist and the reordering of the phrase almost always somebody says it's not personal, it's business. And you're like, no, it's not business, it's personal to bring the human component, especially relevant given the zeitgeist of machine learning, artificial intelligence and all the things that people are very scared about right now. I have this feeling and maybe I'm an optimist, that the more the world becomes automated with machine learning and robots, the more we're going to desire the exact opposite of that. It creates a distinction between human made and machine made. But I could be wrong there.

Emmanuel:

And to build on this quiz, there is that line in the book that says the more connected we are, the lonelier we feel. What we see is... Most of us, almost all of us have access to devices and social media and messaging apps and dating apps and all those things. Sadly, the fact is, and that's even more relevant after COVID than before. Sadly, the fact is that most people have very few friends. It's becoming harder and harder for people to make friends. We also see sadly that the younger the audience, the least real friends they have in real life, you see that the prescription for anti-depressants and anxiolytics is going through the roof to the point that at some point, Chris, I talked to a pharmacist who told me that there was a shortage of antidepressants in Los Angeles. And I'm picking on Los Angeles just to establish that for the glamour and Hollywood and social media and wealth, yet people feel so lonely.

Back to what you were saying about artificial intelligence, technology is not a substitute for human connection at all. It's quite the opposite. It's going to lead us to seek more authentic, more meaningful human connections.

Chris:

Love that. You have away with words, sir. You really do. And it took me a little while to figure out what the heck you were saying. The more lonely we are, the more connected we are. You're not talking about the stronger digitally connected, the more we escape to social media, to find meaning and connection with people and it's exacerbating the problem. It's creating a state where people feel anxious, they feel depressed, and they feel even more lonely than they have ever before. Wow, that's fantastic. Is this the French part of you that's just like crafty with these words and just...

Emmanuel:

Maybe, I don't know, maybe it's cultural. Truth been told, I... That's also where my approach is different. Let me articulate this. In our industry, lots of people make predictions and I'm not very good at making predictions about the tools themselves, meaning I don't know what's going to be very heard in three years. And if I want to be honest, now it's January 2023, three years ago, I had never heard of TikTok. TikTok has 1.1 billion users today.

And if I want to be very honest, three months ago I had never heard of ChatGPT. And it took ChatGPT only five days to reach 1 million users. All this to say that I hardly ever take bets on what technology is going to be heard or what brand's going to be heard. I don't think I know any better. My differentiation, if you will, or if I may my value add, is to take a step back and to understand how do people want to communicate, how people find meaning. From there, as marketers and as brand strategists, what can we do to help people and make a positive impact? So it's a more, I wouldn't say philosophical, but it's hopefully a humble, if you will, take and guidance to our industry.

Chris:

A lot of what you talked about in terms of brand and branding centers around this word, and I want to come back to which is story, to be able to tell the story, to find the story, to surface it. A lot of people who run their own business, myself included, we have blind spots to what we think we are, our own story because that's the only reality we know. Oftentimes it takes an external force to come in to then recognize this is unique, this is worth talking about, to be able to help us surface that and then build a stronger story. I'm curious, from your lens, how do we become better storytellers? Are there components to stories that we should be looking for and highlight and others that are just not worth talking about?

Emmanuel:

I think no matter how big or how small your business, and no matter if you have 30 years experience or you are out of college, it's to always be humble and surround yourself with people that are going to challenge you and with people sometimes they're industry leaders, they're very experienced, they're thought leaders, that's important and that's fine. They provide valuable guidance. In my case, they're also people that are literally 20 years younger than I because they understand [inaudible 00:31:40] of social media and pop culture better than I do. Importantly, I think you have to be willing to surround yourselves with people that are going to tell you no and that are going to ask you the tough questions.

In my interaction with my students, I like what I learn from them and I like sharing learnings, my knowledge with them. The limitation though is they always tell me good things about me. That's very kind, but often I ask people whether it's industry peers or clients or associates, "Challenge me on this, challenge me." And that's how you grow. Because Chris you mentioned about those blind spots in your business. Trust me, we all do. As hard as I try to think outside of the box, the fact is that I am in a box. That's where in the writing for example, a publisher is important because... I'll give you an example. He challenged me to bring more diverse examples in my writing. He said, "Yeah, you have some examples of great brands, I'd want to see more diversity of brands that are minority owned, of brands that are smaller" and so on and so forth. And that was a very important addition to my writing.

Conversely, I think when sometimes brands get lost and leaders get lost is when they surround themselves only with people that will kiss their rear end.

Greg Gunn:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

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Greg Gunn:

Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris:

Okay, I'm in a business or I'm helping to build the brand for business so we're in it together, whether we're the operators or the external force helping them to build a stronger business. And things are off, things aren't working, revenue is flat or declining or we've not figured out how to make the jump from physical brick and mortar space to the online world. Something that's off in the business. Okay, so there's a problem. Is the approach to be more brand-centric? What are our values? What's our story? Or is it to be more customer-centric to say, "Here's a customer who's looking for some kind of transformation and emotional connection and we need to adjust ourselves to them." Do we learn to tell better stories about ourselves or do we then go meet the customer where they're at? Or is there some other version that I'm not thinking about?

Emmanuel:

To me it's really the latter, is what do people want? How do they perceive your brand but the priorities on them? What do they need and what do they want? We all make assumptions. As hard as we try not to, we all make assumptions on what readers want to read and what students want to learn. It's always going back to them, what do you need? Not just what do you want, but what do you need and how can I provide this to you?

So maybe back to your business, and I don't want to be too presumptuous here, Chris, but you know the industry very well and the skills very well. Think of it, you have a toolbox. You can equip people with those skills. However, when you create your programs, your learning environment, you are having to take bets if you will, to place bets on what are the skills that people really want and maybe the format in which they should be delivered. Well, one approach is to take a massive step back and to hear what are the skills people want to learn from you, but also how they want those skills to be delivered.

Again, let me link a smaller brand if I may like yours, with a very big brand like UCLA, right? UCLA is 35,000 students and 3,500 faculty, so it's fair to assume that it's a bigger enterprise that the business you're leading. With that said, this week we're having this debate on chat GPT. I reached out to my boss and I said, "How am I going to assess students now that they can plug the question for the assignment in a bot that's going to generate an assignment that's 90% good in a matter of 12 seconds or maybe 40 seconds?" The answer is we have to take a big step back and rethink the way we teach and rethink the way we evaluate students.

The emphasis should no longer be on let's produce this perfect essay. The emphasis should be on Mr. Student, how are you going to articulate the knowledge? How are you going to articulate what you learn, participate more in class, show and tell, demonstrate your product, your thinking, your learning to the audience. Maybe I can educate you with some bite learnings. I need to come up with a different format for you to acquire and then utilize this knowledge.

But my point here, Chris, is to show how we are going to have to completely rethink the way we have been teaching people and grading, evaluating students, and that's a good thing. Or you can keep pushing and try to [inaudible 00:40:40] and say, "No, I want my students to write assignments and I'm going to find whatever software to detect if they used ChatGPT or another." Yeah, you can do that. My guess is this battle is lost. That's the wrong way to go. Resist is the wrong way to go about it.

Chris:

Yeah, I find it ironic that people who are anti-robots and technology employ another robot to fight the robot, so then it's just the robots. People don't even think about that. I'm like, "Oh, this is not human, but let me go get a robot to process this so I can tell if it's being written by a robot." It's a little wild there.

Okay, I have one more question for you. You've been talking about branding, brands and creating this emotional connection with people and helping them achieve their transformation, who they want to become. Are these principles applicable to people and not just corporations? Some people feel strongly about this one way or the other. They're brands and are their personal brands, and if there are, what are the similarities or what are the differences in your mind?

Emmanuel:

Yeah, in my book, pun intended, the size of the brand almost doesn't matter. Of course it does because if you're a large brand you'll have more to spend. That said, I pride myself in working with very, very large brands. I'm privileged at Ipsos to work with some Fortune 50 and I also like to support very small brands, the local businesses and all, you spoke about personal brand. But at the end of the day, I think it's all the same thing or it should be. That is, what is the big idea? What am I trying to achieve? How can I contribute to my community? How can I find fulfillment as an individual in that process? How can my product be helpful and meaningful to people around me? From there, I establish a brand and a range of products. Let's talk about my personal brand.

Chris:

I would love to.

Emmanuel:

I'm here to hopefully inspire people, to equip people with new skills that are actionable straight away, and I'm here to learn from people from all walks of life. That's really what drives me. It's not the fast cars, which I don't drive anyway. It's not the private jets, which I don't fly anyway, it is inspiring the community and in turn learning from the community of the other way around. Now that we establish this, whether I do one book, two books or 12 books, my purpose and my mission remains consistent. Is the same thing for your learning business. You are on a mission to inspire and to educate people. Whether you publish two courses, five courses, 20 or 50, and whether you deliver those courses over TikTok online or offline in-person, or you mail people a workbook, that is just an articulation of what your brand is about.

Chris:

All right, I'm going to try this on for size because what I like to do is try to help people figure out what their personal brand is and sum it up into words. It's not perfect, but I think the word humble needs to be part of your dialogue, so I would... This is not perfect, but I would say you're the humble academic who was drawn to the light, figuratively and literally, and that got you out of France to London and then to LA, but that's part of your story, something like that.

Emmanuel:

Thank you so much for this statement, which I will steal.

What I was going to say on that note, Chris, and that's also something that I cover at length in my book Assemblage. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. That's the other thing. There is this process of copy transform combined. It's described in the book as very mixed economy. Too often we try to reinvent the wheel. In reality, most great ideas and you know this, you in graphic design, most great ideas come from a combination, an assemblage, pun intended, of things and people and colors and sounds that influence you, that you transform into something new. So that's my other guidance, if I may use this word advice to our listeners today, is you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You have to reformulate, recreate, remix, a bunch of things that are already in existence.

Chris:

As one former teacher to another, I believe you are an adjunct professor at UCLA, what do you see as the biggest challenge in working with students and getting them to understand this broader, more holistic view of brand and branding? Where are you finding that they're not getting the concept? I'd love to talk about that just as one teacher to another.

Emmanuel:

In my experience, it's their ability to communicate. They're very good at learning. They're very good at collecting information. They have great cultural influences. They're often curious. That's fine. In my experience, it's their ability to formulate, communicate, articulate their ideas.

Chris:

And when you say articulate, is there a specific version of that, like verbal, written, designed, craft somehow? Where's articulation? Where are they struggling with that?

Emmanuel:

They're struggling to connect, they're struggling to stop obsessing about the likes and the number of followers. That is not a meaningful connection. [inaudible 00:46:44] followers bothers me, by the way. It's a little bit cultish, if you will. I don't think people should specifically follow me. I don't establish myself as a guru. It's okay to use this terminology, but again, this is not connection. This is not meaningful. It's this theory of a minimum viable market, of a minimum viable proposition MVP, that is, it's meaningless to have hundreds of likes and thousands of friends on Instagram. What are the 2, 3, 4, 5 people in your community you can convince that your idea is good and that your product is right for them? That's the starting point.

Is the same thing when you write a book. Of course, we all want to be New York Times bestsellers. That's fine. Our first question that comes up with a publisher is who are you going to sell the first 1000 copies to? So think small. That is a starting point. That is more important than having a bullhorn to scream your message at people. First, make sure that the message resonates and is relevant with a small audience and connects, establish... When we started this conversation, Chris, we spoke about loyalty. We spoke about emotional connection. Establish this emotional connection. What we at Ipsos call brand desire. That is your starting point. That is your point of differentiation and then you'll scale.

Chris:

Wonderful. I want to reach back to your first book, Brand Hacks. Could you give us your top three brand hacks? Maybe they're in business a couple years, one to 5 million in revenue and they want to apply what it is that you're teaching. They want to dive into your world, Emmanuel. Give us your top three brand hacks, if you will.

Emmanuel:

Authenticity is definitely the one, that doesn't need any money, doesn't need any scale, so that's going to be important. Listening to people and not consumers. I insist on the world people rather than consumers. Listening skills. The empathy for brand and for brand strategies, marketing professionals to act with empathy is particularly important. And I will say this notion of transformation. Again, who is my audience and what do they want to achieve? Who do they want to become? That's the hack right there. Again, notice Chris, that was free hacks. They take no resources. You can write them at the back of a napkin. You can implement this with a $5 marketing budget. Who is my audience? Who do they want to become? How can I facilitate this transformation, how I can make them be hero?

Chris:

If I may, can I follow up on the who do they want to become? How do you determine this?

Emmanuel:

Yeah. When you buy sports apparel, you don't just buy those sneakers because they're light and they'll be good for your run. You want to become an athlete. That's what I mean by transformation. The brand has to empower me to become that athlete and the brand has to empower me to succeed and also to fail sometimes. That's the transformation right here. Or if you're in personal care, the brand has to empower me to be beautiful in whatever way I want to be. It's not for the brand to define what beauty is, it's for the brand to facilitate making me beautiful. If you're a local brewery, the point of your product is not to get me drunk. I can [inaudible 00:50:56] if I want to get drunk, that's fine. The brand has to empower me to be part of your story, to be part of the community and to educate me on the craft, educate me on the product, what makes it different, makes me feel more knowledgeable. That's empowering. Does this help, Chris?

Chris:

It does very much, yes. I've been taking lots of notes as part of our conversation. It ties into so many things that I believe in, that I'm actively working on doing and teaching, so it's very reaffirming to hear you say something like, "Okay, I think we're on the right path. We all have work to do, but we're on the right path."

Emmanuel:

One thing I may add, Chris, is also you, the brand, I need you to reassure me about the path, the present, and the future. And what I mean by this is AI and machine learning and all this, look, it's all very compelling. At the same time, it's very threatening as a brand because we feel so unsafe and unstable, if you will. As humans, we seek permanence and reassurance about the world around us, and that's what the brand should help me do. It should be assure me about my future, make me feel safe and secure.

Chris:

If people want to dive deeper into your brain, what's the best place for them to go to find out more about you, Emmanuel?

Emmanuel:

Well, absent neurosurgery, which-

Chris:

May happen, it may happen.

Emmanuel:

Which I'm not quite sure what we would find in there. But thank you for asking. People can find my book Assemblage on Amazon, Barnes & Noble and the likes. Amazon is probably the easiest way to access the book. The book is called Assemblage: The Art and Science of Brand Transformation. People can also connect with me on LinkedIn and again, my name is Emmanuel Probst. To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only one and people can reach out to me, establish this connection, send me an email or an email on LinkedIn and I will gladly reply to any additional questions people may have. It's what makes our roles, our jobs exciting, Chris, is to connect with people.

Chris:

I love that. That's a very brave invitation. Our fan and community may overwhelm you with the messages. Who knows? Let's keep our fingers crossed. I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you. I'm so glad that we had an opportunity to speak and just get your thoughts on brand because you've been in this space for a long time. As a researcher, as a teacher, as an author, and as a speaker and as one who helps companies build stronger brands, it was really neat to hear from you. Is there anything that you wanted to say that we didn't get to?

Emmanuel:

Yeah. A brief message to bring some energy and some enthusiasm to our listeners today. The conclusion of the book is called Now It Is Your Turn. And again, I want to be humble. 99% of us did not go to the top one percent school. 99% of us are not part of the top 1% of America. 93% of us don't work for a Fortune 500. Only 7% of people work for a Fortune 500. And now it is your turn, and what I mean by this is it doesn't matter if you started in this industry six weeks ago or if you've been at it for 20 years, you'll have an opportunity to have a voice. You have an opportunity to make an impact, to make a contribution, and to quote Seth Godin "It is always your term. It is always time for you to step in, so don't be shy to make a contribution, to voice your opinion and to take risks because in the long run I think you'll be rewarded. I know you will be rewarded."

Chris:

Love that. That was a hot take. Love it. Excellent. Emmanuel, thank you very much.

Emmanuel:

Thank you, Chris.

My name is Emmanuel Probst and you are listening to the future.

[foreign language 00:55:16] Emmanuel Probst [foreign language 00:55:19].

Greg Gunn:

Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Christ Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony Barro for editing and mixing this episode, and thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music.

If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reading and reviewing our show on Apple Podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 6:

Breathe in, breathe out, get dressed, head out. Grab some friends. Camp out. Get hiked up, vibe out. Take it in. Let it all out. At REI Co-op, we're here for all the outs and we want you to spend more time outside our doors, in them. Try it out. Check out. Then get out. REI Co-op, all out. Visit rei.com.

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