John Driscoll: To me, that's the key. When you really get to a place where you're really solid on solid ground, everybody kind of comes at you. You don't have to do all the hard work and that is amazing.
Chris Do: Thanks for coming on the podcast here. John, for people who don't know who you are, can you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your story?
John Driscoll: Sure. Yeah, I know. Happy to do that, Chris. My name is John Driscoll. I'm the CEO and co founder of Naked Development. We are a mobile app consultancy.
Sometimes people call us an agency, I guess, in our world. [00:01:00] And we are in Irvine, California. I've been an entrepreneur for 25 years. This is my second go. I exited my first one in 06 and it was a financial services and I kind of got here because I was good at marketing and sales in that world and got into that.
And then I, March 6, 2008, I started looking at mobile apps. That was the first day of the app store and jumped in the first day. And I've been in that game ever since.
Chris Do: Wow. That's super cool. You're an early adopter of apps.
John Driscoll: I was the, uh, the earliest adopters. Yeah. Day one. That was fun.
Chris Do: I did a little background research and listened to a podcast that my team shared with me. So there's some interesting things about your childhood, growing up, when you found Christ and things like that. We won't go too far into that, but-
John Driscoll: I know which podcast you listen to now.
Chris Do: It was called Oversharing, I believe.
John Driscoll: Yeah. Yeah. With Mick. I love Mick. He's such a great guy. Yeah.
Chris Do: [00:02:00] So my question for you is this, is for a lot of the creative people that are probably more identified as introvert than extrovert, hearing somebody say, oh, I'm good at sales and marketing.
That's like an anomaly for us. It's like you're a unicorn traipsing through the field. I'm curious about your childhood or anything that happened while you're growing up that that was a clue as to the person that was going to be good at sales and marketing. Do you have any stories of like when you're younger, when you exhibited the earliest signs of your ability to sell?
John Driscoll: Yeah, so I think one of the stories I had told pretty recently is I was out essentially trying to earn money in my neighborhood. I kind of grew up in a, an area where people didn't have a lot of money. And it was in the desert. And so what I had done is I actually would go door to door and ask people if I could pull their weeds. I'm maybe 10, 12 years old max here at this point. And so I would just do that, pull the weeds and then get paid. Well, I, [00:03:00] my buddies wanted to do it with me and I was the one that kind of went to the door first and convinced the people to pay us to pull weeds. And so we finished that first house.
And then when it was time to go to the second one, I was kind of like, okay, it's your turn to go to the door and nobody wanted to do it. And I didn't understand why. I just knew that for me, that was easy. And so I started going to the doors and they agreed to just pull the weeds and I hated manual labor.
And everybody around me were blue collar workers growing up. My dad was a blue collar worker and I started going door to door and then I, I just got smart and I started paying them. As opposed to letting the customer pay them. And so I kind of became a general contractor at age 11, you know, there was so many instances like that, that I'd experienced and my parents always thought I'd be a [00:04:00] lawyer or a teacher. And I would say, I would say the teacher part was probably right.
Chris Do: Do you remember what your pitch was like when you were knocked on that door? Because it's hard for me to imagine a 10 year old kid like, what is the pitch?
John Driscoll: I'm 53 now, but that was a long time ago. I think it was, you know, something along the lines of, hi, mister, I really appreciate your time.
I am going door to door and I noticed you had some weeds in your front yard. Is there a chance that you might want to pay us to take care of that for you today? Something along those lines, you know, and, you know, I definitely had that, elevator kind of pitched down, you know, let's do it quick. I think one of the things that has sparked my ability from being a kid and being now, and it's still true now is I like to sum up things and make them simple for people. And being in technology, that is a massive advantage because people really hate dealing with technology people because they can't do that. [00:05:00] And so I think from the weeds all the way through, whatever it was I was doing, it was always about making things palatable for people. And I think those conversations still happen every day today.
Chris Do: You found a simple problem to solve. You gave a pretty straightforward pitch. I think it's a no brainer offer. Unless you charge too much to do it. It's like, yes, I have weeds. It's a pain in the ass. Especially for older people, like bending down and pulling those things out. Young kids, who cares?
John Driscoll: Yeah, it was hot outside. Nobody wanted to do that. I didn't want to do it. So, it was a nice way to make a living as a kid.
Chris Do: Was this in Victorville?
John Driscoll: Yeah. Yeah, it was Victorville. Oddly enough, one of my neighbors was, that I grew up with, was Cuba Gooding Jr. And, uh, he didn't want to pull weeds, but, you know, he was one of the neighborhood kids that I grew up with up there in Victorville.
Chris Do: Okay, take us to the next instance where you're exhibiting these management, entrepreneurial sales, or marketing skills. Take us to the next thing where you can like, okay, it's starting to become clear [00:06:00] to me how I'm going to spend some of my life.
John Driscoll: Yeah, I think when I got to high school, I started to try to get normal jobs and I kind of hated it. You know, like I washed dishes and things like that. I found interviewing to get jobs was easy. For me, because I could convince them to hire me. That wasn't a problem. So then I got the offer to sell shoes in the mall. And that was such an awesome experience. Cause I worked with a lot older men who kind of mentored me.
I learned how to tie a tie. My dad didn't show me how to do that. Was it was a guy that I worked with. You know, cause I, I like showed up with my tie and I'm like, I don't know how to do this. So I worked in the mall at Kenny's Shoes in Victorville, Victorville mall. And I learned how to upsell people and learned how to deal with rejection which is such a part of sales, and I learned how to really work hard, I think, along the lines of my boss, John, who's just this old guy, [00:07:00] and he just was just a great guy to learn next to, learn how to sell, and he'd been selling for 30 something years, and I think the mentors that I got in sales growing up were such a big part of me learning what I know today.
Chris Do: I want to circle back to the whole interviewing part. You said interviewing was easy. I knew what I needed to say to get the job. That's a human skill. That's a soft skill that a lot of people don't understand. And when they think of someone interviewing them, they get really tense and nervous. There are actually courses that teach people how to interview for a gig, especially when you get into the higher paid gigs that are more technical.
The famous, the 10 interviews from Google or Facebook where they run you through the gamut. So young man, you're like confident and, and you kind of figured out the game already, right? You're, sounds like.
John Driscoll: I don't think I knew I figured out the game. Those kinds of things came easy for me, you know, and it really showed me that this was something I was good at and I should keep exploring it. Getting [00:08:00] better at it. And I, I just think having conversations with people, if you can relax and listen and pitch and catch a little bit, when you take an interest in people, they will take an interest in you. And I think I got good at asking questions. And really just naturally having a conversation and then you just become naturally likable.
I think that's the skill is really is, can you ask questions and take an interest in people and when that, that is really the key to being likable for people to buy from you or whatever that is and, and really being likable is all about creating trust so that people will open up to you or give you money or whatever that is that they're trying to trust you with.
With technology, people don't understand what they're, how to do it. So the only thing they can really buy is trust because they don't know what you're going to do or how you're going to do it. And it's really, I always say in almost for 20 something years, I've always said, I [00:09:00] just sell trust for a living. That's all I do.
Chris Do: You very casually dropped some very key foundational skills around sales and understanding that. So I'm going to do my best to unpack them with you because our audience is like, whoa, wait a minute. It's not that easy. Or is it? Maybe it is. So I want to get to the tech part, but we'll save that for the latter part of this conversation that I'm going to have with you because I'm fascinated by this.
John Driscoll: No, this is fun. I never get to talk about this.
Chris Do: Is it okay?
John Driscoll: No, I love it. I love it.
Chris Do: All right. So I'm kind of thinking, whether you're aware of it at the time or not, but you're exhibiting some natural tendencies, interpersonal skills, and I think that's what we're getting at. That sales isn't this crazy thing that you manipulate or influence people against their will.
It's just like, if you're interested in people, they become interested in you. You have to learn how to have conversations and ultimately, before you can get them to trust you, you have to get them to like you. Okay, so I want to get into this because I can imagine like a young man, 15, 16 years old, working in a mall.
It's like this older person interviewing you. You want the gig because you want [00:10:00] some money. Maybe you didn't dream of becoming a shoe salesman, or maybe you did, who knows? But then you're sitting there in front of the person, looking back on it now, with the wisdom that you've gained since then, what do you think was happening, the interpersonal dynamic that was between you, the applicant, versus the boss or the client? I love this because it's simple to understand, and I think it's going to be super relatable for people.
John Driscoll: Yeah, I think it starts also before you even walk in the room. It's your inner frame of how you are defining that conversation in your mind, whether it's that one on one conversation or getting on a stage and speaking.
It's all about how do you feel about the situation you're in? And people often go into those things with massive expectations or what I like to call outcome dependency. And they get into those conversations really liking, well, hopefully this goes well and I get the job. And I think I didn't do that as much [00:11:00] as some people.
And what that does is it allows you to really relax into it. Like, I need this job or I'm not going to be able to pay my bills and my life's going to be, my parents are going to hate me and you build this narrative in your head. I think it's true today when I get into a sale, I never live and die by a single sale, live and die by whether somebody likes me, it's not going to change how I feel about myself.
And that is incredibly important before you even get in the room. That sets the stage for the conversation before the conversation even happens. And I think it's important to point out aspect of the whole thing. It's that inner clarity before you walk in. And I think as a kid, I kind of walked in and I said, you know, if I, if I'm me and I have this conversation, this is going to go well, I might not get the job, whatever. I'll move on. I'll get a different job.
Chris Do: So the inner frame, how you feel about yourself, your expectations that you're bringing to the table, a lot of times creatives will need the [00:12:00] job so bad in their mind, they have this air of desperation. And it changes the way they talk. They're not their natural selves.
They're not as smart and as sharp. They're not fully present. Cause they're just thinking about getting the gig. It's interesting that as a young person, you walk in, they're like, I can get this job or I can't, it's a shoe shelves job. And there's other stores or mall in the mall. And I can go for those if this doesn't work.
And I love that. The question I always get when I tell people, relax, you don't need this. They have to be smart enough to figure out that you're going to give value to them by giving you money. But there are people who literally, like, haven't worked in six or seven months. And that very, just, harsh reality of rent and not feeling worthy.
How do you overcome that? Because I believe what you believe. The inner frame is so important. I think you win or lose before you even step in the room. But if you're in that real state, how do you overcome that? Do you have any tips for us, John?
John Driscoll: Yeah, and because I've, I've been through that many, many times where I [00:13:00] truly was desperate. Things weren't going well. Don't take this interview and go, hey, well, if things have always gone his way, so therefore he's never been in my situation. That's not true, even a little bit. I've literally been one sale from paying the mortgage or not on many occasions, and I'm sitting there in that sale.
What you have to do is you have to kind of trick yourself a little bit mentally and say, yeah, but if I, if I allow myself to sound desperate and to be desperate, I'm going to absolutely eliminate my ability to overcome this. You have to kind of trick yourself in that sense, because when you are desperate and I know many people are young people, especially, you know, you're experiencing just a job market that I never been in before.
You just have to kind of trick yourself in a sense, you know, and I think that the same thing's true. I always like to liken it to dating so much and maybe it's because I've been [00:14:00] single for a long time, but it's very much like that. Say you walk up to somebody and they're really, really pretty. The last thing you can do, or the last thing you should do, is let that person see any desperation whatsoever.
And that is tricky. You have to kind of trick yourself and go and try to relax and try to be calm and be cool and act like you don't need them. You have to say that to yourself. Even today, I have a couple notes I look at before I go on a date to remind myself to do the right thing. So if I really like them, I don't actually blow it. So sorry, if you're going to go out with me and I apologize, I have notes. Yes, this is true.
Chris Do: And you're saying also, I might really be attracted to you, but I'm not going to show it.
John Driscoll: That's the worst when you really like them, or you really want the job, or you really need the sale. That's when you're going to be really [00:15:00] tested and you got to learn how to take those moments.
Or you're jumping on a big stage and there's a couple thousand people and you're going to talk to them. Let me tell you, that's a nerve wracking moment and you better, I always play Eminem, so you better lose yourself a little bit.
Chris Do: Well, one of the big shifts that I've noticed when I've learned how to do client interaction and close the sale is the power of asking questions versus thinking that the power is in saying things or pitching. And you talked about that, asking questions to build trust. Tell us more about that, please.
John Driscoll: Yeah, I think a lot what I see and I'm constantly trying to teach our staff really how to have these conversations and it's very, very difficult to teach sometimes that aspect of things, but it's really, you're not asking questions so that they feel like you'll know.
You're asking questions so that you actually know and understand. So the question is, are you genuinely trying to [00:16:00] understand their perspective? What I try to do is always put myself in their perspective. I tell every client, I'm trying to help you run the business as if I owned it. That's what I'm after.
And so if I don't understand any, I've asked four questions to understand. I will ask a fifth one until I do. Hey, help me break that down. Those are kind of questions I do get. Can you unpack that for me? I need to really understand. It's very similar to an interview. You're really trying to understand where they're coming from, so that you can find common ground sometimes.
I had a conversation last week with a customer and I just said, hey, you know, we had this conversation last week and I'll just be genuinely honest, we weren't vibing very well. And I just told him, we weren't vibing very well. I really want to have a relationship with you so that you can get the most out of working with me and I can get the most out of working with you.
The only way we're going to do that is if we really hear each other. So can I ask this question? I'll start out like that [00:17:00] and then I'll ask a big question and then stop and listen and really try to grasp that. And sometimes just go, hey, if we can't find common ground, maybe we should figure out a way to unwind this relationship.
And I'll just say that. And by the way, that works two ways. Either it helps you to unwind a relationship or they're like, whoa, I don't want to lose this relationship. And then they realize you're ready to lose the relationship, which, you know, if you read 48 laws of power means you have the upper hand, which is not, you don't do it for that reason, but it ends up that way. I don't like the manipulation part of that stuff, but it's part of power dynamics for sure.
Chris Do: A bunch of things that you've just shared there, I want to recap for our audience here is we need to learn how to ask questions from a place of curiosity, genuine curiosity, because we need to know. It's not a game we're playing, it's not because we're leading the witness, so to speak, to a conclusion that we want.
And be brave enough to keep [00:18:00] asking follow up questions when you don't understand. And I, I think I, I believe you, I believe you're a natural born seller and that you're very good at this because I can tell because you're saying things that I, that really vibe with the way that I also believe. That you're really curious and you're asking deep follow up questions and you're willing to label things.
This is kind of really important. You're willing to say, I'm, I'm lost here, man, break this down for me, unpack it. So there is a confidence, a quiet confidence and power that comes from saying things. Also, you said, maybe this isn't a good fit for us. It doesn't feel like it to me, so I don't want to continue down this road because I'm picking up that this isn't a good thing.
So you're saying what you think, and this is real power for people here. This is not a mind game. It's that we repress our observations and our feelings, and it makes us not as smart as we need to be. And we're holding back something. This is a vital piece of information for both parties to understand.
It's like why people say we're not vibing, we're not in the same wavelength, it's because they're [00:19:00] transmitting something, and you're transmitting something totally different. They're transmitting, this ain't working, kid. And you're like, oh, it's totally working. And they're thinking, no, it's not.
But you haven't said anything. So better for you to air it, give it some light and see if you're on the same page to recalibrate then for you to repress it. One of the biggest sales things for people to remember, say what you think at the risk of you losing the gig because you're not going to get it anyways. So I love that, John.
John Driscoll: Yeah. You know, a lot of people wait till, so when they're young, they think that, well, I'll be able to do that when I'm older to older men. And we have personas that we use in the office. And when you get the highest level persona that we have, the name is Bob. And when you are talking to a Bob and Bob has to be high net worth individual, all this stuff, right?
A lot of people are very, very intimidated by a guy named Bob, you know? And it's because they feel like there's some sort of, I will arrive one day to be able to [00:20:00] talk to Bob. You can talk to Bob now at 21. If you want to talk to Bob, how you talk to Bob is direct, honest, and short. People are using too many words.
They're doing this indirect hinting at things. I hear people say, I told him that. And I'm like, uh, did you, did you really? And this is a really good skill is like, make sure that they confirmed it back to you. If you didn't hear it back, you didn't hear it. You didn't say it. It's not always great in a personal relationship to talk like that.
I've had girls that don't like when I do that, but when you're doing it in a business format, it's really good. So, you know, you say, Hey, I just want to make sure you heard what I said. It's going to be 250, 000 dollars. When you're selling a big ticket item, you better be clear that you told them, and you should probably document it, you know, through email to just make it make sure, but even then, if they didn't hear it, [00:21:00] if they say they didn't hear it, and then you come back with an email later on, and you're like, see, I proved I did tell you, that's not gonna mean anything.
This is not about somebody winning the fact game. This is not a courtroom. It's about relationship. And so it's about saying, hey, I just want to make sure you heard that because I realize that's very expensive and that's there's going to be some sticker shock involved, but that's what it's going to cost.
Is that within your budget, or are you thinking about going to somebody else right now? Just say that directly, and you're going to have an honest conversation with somebody. People want to work with people like that. And there's so much indirect language in this generation I see now. And they're just hinting, and they're so afraid to say stuff, and it's like, man, that's the difference.
If you have the confidence to say those things out loud, to name them and label them and all the stuff you're talking about. That will change your sales game.
Chris Do: I'm going to make a wild guess because I was listening to your childhood and what bands you're into. [00:22:00] So I'm going to guess we're of similar age. I'm 52. Are you in your 50s as well?
John Driscoll: You look so young.
Chris Do: It's the Asian thing.
John Driscoll: It's the hat and the glasses or something. I'm 53. Yeah, I just turned 53 last weekend.
Chris Do: Okay, I knew it. See, I knew we were about the same age.
John Driscoll: Yeah, yeah.
Chris Do: Okay, so the reason why I ask this is because you're right. I have two adult children, like one's 17 and one's 20. He's about to be 18 any day now. And they're always like, Dad, you're gonna get canceled. You can't say that. I'm like, I'm just saying what I'm thinking. Sue me. And you're right. There's a sensitivity to language today that it just like, what is anybody saying anymore? Everybody's so careful to navigate things. What are your thoughts on that? I know we're diverging here a little bit.
John Driscoll: Oh, no, I, I've got a lot to say about that. Yeah, I just don't care. And once you have that ability to not care, you just kind of let go of it all. People really appreciate honest people. And I think the clients think they like me sometimes.
And they think I'm [00:23:00] also brutally honest about their business. And it's my job to be brutally honest. I'm not here to coddle you or make you feel good. I'm not, that's not why I'm here. I'm here for your success. And I tell them that all the time. I don't care if you like me is if you're successful, you're going to like me.
Period. So in that directness just creates a lot of trust because they know that at least they can rely on the fact that you're going to tell them what you think. There's a lot of people, you know, it's always really tough. You know, I have this with clients sometimes or people that I buy from, you can tell there's like all these thoughts underneath that they're not talking about.
And they're like covertly just kind of holding back things. It's very uncomfortable for people when you're buying something, you're spending, you're making a big investment, whether it's a real estate agent or whatever a mortgage person or whatever. And they're not telling you stuff. You just don't trust that.
And people don't even know why they don't want to buy from you, but they just [00:24:00] don't trust you because you're not being straight with them. And you think being straight with people will scare them off. It does the very, very opposite. It's very, very attractive.
Chris Do: As the kids would say, that was a bar. I want to repeat it as best as I can. You're saying, I don't care if you like me, because when you're successful, you will like me then. That's a bar.
John Driscoll: Yeah, that's it. It's really that simple.
Chris Do: However, that does go against something else, counter intuitively, and you've said it, like, I feel like you're an older brother from another mother. The deeper voice.
I really feel this guys, cause you're going to be listening to this and you're going to say, is it John or is it Chris speaking right now? Because it's same wavelength philosophically. Okay. So many people want to be liked. So they do the things that make them really unlikable. They beat around the bush, they're not direct, they're evasive.
And the thing that you think is going to make you not likable, which is to be clear, to be direct, to, to call out the elephant in the room, [00:25:00] that actually is a thing that people admire. It's very refreshing these days for people to speak their mind, not in a violent way, but just to be clear and direct. And it's super, super important to do this.
Which leads us to the thing that you said, to be a great salesperson, you have to be naturally likable. So I think you've already outlined some of the traits for us. Are there any other traits that you can think of that make someone naturally likable?
John Driscoll: I think it's also, let's say it's your business. I think it's like, is what you're saying consistent and congruent everywhere? That is really, really important. So a lot of people, they might be that way in one aspect of their life, but for it to be really, really believable. and true it kind of has to be who you are. And that's why I started with frame. It's got to be really on the inside. And is it how you deal with everyone? Do you deal with everyone that way?
When I'm talking to my [00:26:00] kids, I have three kids too by myself, adult kids, and are you being direct with them? Are you telling them how you really feel? Are you being that honest with them? When it kind of comes with every part of your life, whether it's dating or whatever you're doing, it really becomes a part of you.
And it's not an act that you just do at work. And I think that is really one. You start to get superpowers because you will just find that people will just want to be with you. I find it really interesting when I meet people out of town and they're like, hey, let's change the numbers. And they're really, really powerful guys.
And they just like want to hang out and talk, hey, fly out to see me. And you know, and you have those kinds of experiences and you're less of the person trying to get the relationships and they're doing all the work. To me, that's the key. When you really get to a place where you're really solid on solid ground, everybody kind of comes at you.
You don't have to do all the hard work. And that is [00:27:00] amazing. We don't do any outbound marketing as a company, none, zero. And I haven't for a decade. All of our stuff comes from people coming to us. And all we try to do is go, let's go out there and let's be who we are, and they'll come to us. And that's attraction in all aspects of life, whether it's friendship making or whatever it is.
And I wish I'd learned that younger. Unfortunately, I'm much better at it now than I was in my 20s, but I wish I'd learned that younger because I was very much far more insecure and dealt with a lot of stuff, but when you get that down, like, you know, life gets so much easier.
Chris Do: We're gonna try to do something. We're gonna try to tap into the multiverse. I want you to look right into the camera and imagine your 20 year old self.
John Driscoll: Oh my gosh.
Chris Do: Full of whatever ideas that you had back when you were 20 year old, because there are going to be people in that mindset, whether they're 20 years old or not [00:28:00] doesn't matter.
Tell them what they need to hear about this thing about being who you are and letting go of trying to fit into some mold, because it's not going to work and it's going to take you 30 years to figure this out. Give us the shortcuts. So look in the camera and give your younger self that piece of information, so hopefully you'll save them some time and some pain.
John Driscoll: Stop caring about outcomes and start caring about the quality of the person that you are. Keep building and investing in you. And the rest will take care of itself. There's really not much more to it than that. I didn't do that when I was twenty something. I didn't invest in myself. I had to learn that in my late thirties.
And I just, God, I lost all those years. It could have been. And this generation definitely has that down more than we did. I didn't read books. Now I, I can't stop reading books. If you aren't reading books, I tell, you [00:29:00] know, in my coaching, I tell people like, if you're not reading books, like really, what are you doing?
Like, I don't understand what kind of life you're really trying to have. There's a few really basic things. If you're not, hitting the gym and trying to be healthy and you're not reading books, like what are you doing? You can't expect an outcome when you aren't investing in those things. I, I was playing with my buddies golf on Sunday and I'm a reasonably good golfer and the guy like hit the ball weird and whatever and I asked him, I said, well, when was the last time you hit golf balls?
And he said, this was like six months ago. Well, it sounds like you can't really expect to hit it well, then. It's kind of as simple as that. I'm kind of an asshole saying that, but he's my buddy and I like to poke him. We're playing golf and that's how it goes. And I'm like, you might want to drop your expectations.
You might actually have some fun today, you know? So that's kind of life in a nutshell. If you're not making those [00:30:00] investments in, then you're not going to get the out. It's just not going to happen. And so I wish I'd done that when I was younger.
Chris Do: Man, I swear we're almost the same here. Latecomer to reading books, you know, now you can see all the books behind me. For the record, I've not read all of them, not even close, but I'm working my way through the pile here, right?
John Driscoll: I am an audiobook guy, to be fair. My brother says I'm not allowed to say that I read books because I listen to them. But I listen to about 400 hours a year, so I'm pretty invested in it.
Chris Do: I think there used to be a stigma against listening to audiobooks, but who cares? What you're saying is, invest in learning, however it comes. You can go to a workshop, you can get a mentorship, you can read books, you can listen to audiobooks, whatever. While we're on that topic, though, I have to ask you, what are the top three books that have shaped your thinking? It could be old books or things you've read yesterday, whatever.
John Driscoll: Yeah, one of the top on my list and I mentioned this really all over the [00:31:00] place is Atomic Habits. I'm just such a James Clear fan of how he shaped that conversation about habits and I would say Anthony Robbins Awaken the Giant Within, I actually teach that methodology that he does. And then I would say 100 million in marketing, 100 Million Offers by Alex Hormozi is I literally made a quarter million dollars within the first week of reading that book by applying its principles and how much I've made since as a result of that book has been tremendous. It's in multi millions. Yeah. It's a huge impact. Yeah, it's a huge impact.
The Futur: It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.
Chris Do: Enjoying the conversation you're listening to right now? You're going to love what we have for you inside The Futur Pro membership. From live group calls with myself and vetted guest experts to over 600 hours [00:32:00] of pro exclusive trainings and monthly networking, you'll have everything you need to fast track your growth. Check it out at thefutur.com/pro.
The Futur: And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation.
Chris Do: I have a gazillion other questions that naturally evolved out of our conversation. So audience, I apologize. I won't get to all of them clearly because there's a lot of threads being pulled on here. But while I'm on this, I could not forgive myself if I'm like, wait a minute. I read that book. I did not make 250, 000 in the first week of reading it. What'd you do differently?
John Driscoll: So I think some of the tactics he uses in the book around, first of all, the idea of building an offer so good that people can't say no. It was very challenging for me. One of the things he said also in that was your offer has to be so good that a great salesperson isn't required.
And at the time we definitely needed me to close for it to happen. [00:33:00] And I've always had setters and assistants and people like that handling our funnels. But I was like, man, that means I've got to make this offer so freaking good that it doesn't need me. So I kind of like in my mind went, what if I died?
How would this company continue? And I never really asked that question the way I did when I read that book. And so I started adding guarantees. That was huge, bonus offers right away. And those things dynamically changed our close ratio almost overnight. I would say overnight, we just jumped up and I broke a number within 30 days that I'd never hit before.
On inbound sales and I was like, wow, that was pretty dramatic. I think if you really, really like a book, you should listen or read it 10 plus times. So if it's a book [00:34:00] that I think is really valuable, I kind of go, okay, that was fun. Do I really want this in my life? Okay. Then I need to listen to it 10 times. And I've listened to that at least 10 times, maybe more.
Chris Do: I mean the word guarantee scares a lot of creative people. Can you give me an example of the guarantee that you added to your offer?
John Driscoll: Yeah. And we still offer it today. So I can definitely talk about it. So what we did is we, Have people sign an agreement for 20, 000. That's like our baseline relationship to consult with us. And that gives them 30 days of consulting and design. And in order for them to do that, they have to sign the agreement and they can't really meet with us until then. We don't do that whole concept of oh, free consulting. Yeah, that's not good. If you're, if you're giving out free consulting, your, your opinion is not very valuable.
So we do that. Well, they always come in for about four to six hours on day one, and they spend a whole day with our team. We were so [00:35:00] successful, and we always felt confident that if they got in that room, they were a customer for life. We knew that. And I was like, well, am I willing to put my money where my mouth is?
If they're not happy after that day, am I willing to give them back their money? And yeah, I am. And so we do that. Now we offer them a guarantee. It's a discovery day guarantee. They're not happy. By the end of that day, we're willing to break the relationship and send their money back. And we wasted five hours of our time.
However, I've never given one out and that's been well over a year. We've been doing that. And if somebody asked for it, I'd probably be like, oh, they're just not our client. That's probably good for us to get out of this relationship.
Chris Do: There's that inner frame working for you right there.
John Driscoll: Yeah. Yeah. Are you willing to lose it? It sucks sending somebody 20 grand back after you just did a lot of work. However. What would you have spent to try to make them happy? Maybe impossible. You might have spent a lot more money trying to do that.
Chris Do: I [00:36:00] want to highlight a couple of things about what you just said there. You've broken the engagement into a commitment, so they can't get in that room unless they've got 20k to spend, which means they have more money to spend because that's for discovery.
You're very confident in what you're, what the value you create in building the relationship, hence the guarantee. And the last thing is, if it doesn't work, man, we were just not meant to work together. I'm not going to belabor this thing and kill ourselves and frustrate the entire team and just destroy morale.
It's not, it's not worth it. And I think that's the quiet confidence that I want all of our listeners to have. To say like, not everybody who can afford you is your customer. They're just not. And you have to be okay to exit the relationship and that gives you such clarity and like if it's, I've heard this expression before, if it's not a hell yes, then it's a hell no.
We die in the middle. Right? Cause we're like kind of, yeah, I kind of need the money. I kind of can deal with this person, but life's too short.
John Driscoll: Absolutely. [00:37:00] That's why we don't make longer than 30 day commitments when we start with relationships. We're not sure how that relationship is going to go. It's like that first discovery and design process is the dating process.
It's them deciding whether they want to get into a marriage because once we start coding something, we're married, we always tell them that like, we're married, it's going to be a divorce. If we get out of this relationship, it's going to be really painful for both of us. So we kind of use that 30 day process to really get us there. And sometimes we've told people, hey, we just think it's probably best if we part ways now after the 30 day commitment. So we've definitely walked to the door in a sense and just said, hey, I just think, you know, you guys will be better off. We've actually said, Hey, here's, here's a list of people you might want to go see.
Chris Do: So you're resigning from the work because you don't feel like you're a good fit.
John Driscoll: Yeah, like it's just, we've tried to do it. It's not like we haven't, we haven't taken those relationships on them. You learn [00:38:00] by making that mistake and going, hey, and that's why it's really important to have personas for your clients. We have, you know, five personas we use and we, from the very first conversation before I even get on the phone, the sales team has already identified what persona they are.
Chris Do: Well, you told us one of them. His name is Bob.
John Driscoll: Bob's a high net worth. Yeah, you don't meet many of those. I've had billionaires come through the funnel just the same as everybody else.
And it's pretty wild. I mean, we ended up working with Peter Thiel as a result of our funnel, just same as everything. Everybody else, you're like, oh, billionaires, Google stuff. Yeah. Just like everybody else. Sometimes you don't know who they are and you're like, oh, and you, you, you key into something. You're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, this guy's different.
And use Google. And when you're like, oh my gosh, like I've had that experience several times. Yeah. I did not know who I was talking [00:39:00] to the whole time. Which is great, because you were just being natural and you weren't treating them different. Right. Probably better you didn't know then. I've sold them and then realized it later.
Chris Do: So that's when Timmy turns into Bob, because you Google him later.
John Driscoll: Yeah, so we have the one before it is, the name is Tucker, and we named that after a cat I met in North Carolina. I don't know why, we just liked the name Tucker. So Tucker gets promoted to being a Bob, and sometimes that happens. We realized we had the persona off a little bit. And then we, as we get to know them, it's, it's fluid. You can change it.
Chris Do: Have you written about the five personality types in the profiles? Because if somebody's curious about this, I don't want to spend our time talking about this, but if they wanted to read about the five personality types of profiles you've built, is there somewhere we can send them?
John Driscoll: I've never even talked about it on a podcast till today.
Chris Do: Oh, maybe we should talk about it then. What do you think?
John Driscoll: I'm totally fine. I think I've said them out loud in some of my talks, public talks. At least two of them that I think are the most [00:40:00] common.
Chris Do: Let's, why don't we just name them all and then you tell me what makes them who they are. So we have Bob, we have Tucker.
John Driscoll: Underneath that, you have Monday. These are named after actual clients, some of them.
Chris Do: Monday?
John Driscoll: Yeah, Monday. And she knows, I told her. Yeah, Monday. And then we have Terry. And then the very last one was named after this really weird client we had. And his nickname was Zuma Dog. And we took that on. So that's six. I guess it's six. Yeah. Right. Is that six?
Chris Do: No, that's five. Bob, Tucker, Monday, Terry, and Zuma Dog.
John Driscoll: Yeah. Okay. So there's five. So I'll tell you the rest. So Bob is a high net worth individual, very successful person, can fully fund his own project, doesn't really need to raise money. Tucker has been successful. And a lot of times you'll see a Tucker and a Bob team up. That's a very common scenario for us. And Tucker can be a business guy he works with, but Tucker tends to be a little bit younger, a little bit more tech savvy. He's got some business acumen [00:41:00] and maybe can fund his project. But we know that he's very serious customer.
And Monday is somebody who has potential. So this is like a potential, they don't necessarily have the resources, but they have a lot of potential. A lot of times I see a lot of young people that I call Mondays and we're like, yeah, you know, we're going to ride this out. We actually think that they have a ton of potential if we just hang in there with them.
They take a lot of advantage of our coaching and some of the other stuff that we offer in our ecosystem. Terry is a, a dreamer and not a doer. They often will say a lot of things and they might even lie to you to make you think that they're more than they are. God, don't be a Terry. Just be honest with yourself.
It's a terrible place to live. Just be honest. There are a lot of the fake it till you make it people. And then the last one, Zuma dog is just not a qualified lead. They're a person that's just out there wasting your time. I never get to talk to those [00:42:00] anymore. We definitely filter those out.
Chris Do: Your gatekeepers have to keep them out. Cause they're going to waste your time.
John Driscoll: Yeah. I, I tend to only get to talk to the ones that are really interesting to talk to now.
Chris Do: Aside from their ability to buy, what makes them not qualified? Anything else?
John Driscoll: Yeah. They have really bad expectations for how this is going to go. Expectations are one of the biggest things I really qualify because if you can't manage those because they're unmanageable because of the person's character, how they are, then you're really set up to have a really bad relationship. You've got to really find the unqualified first before you really understand the qualified.
Chris Do: I think. You mentioned how you deal with each one. Well, you've mentioned how you deal with Bob. Bob's a high net worth person. They're ready to go. Don't waste Bob's time. Be clear. Be direct and use as few words as possible.
John Driscoll: Bob is dead serious.
Chris Do: What do you do with Tucker?
John Driscoll: Tucker's [00:43:00] great. I really like, they're actually sometimes easier to deal with than a Bob. They're kind of like the ideal client. They really value what you offer. They know what it's going to cost. They know they can pay for it. And they have really, really realistic expectations.
They're very involved in their business. That's probably the most common person I deal with. Bobs don't grow on trees, you know, there's not a whole bunch of them out there. But Tuckers are out there. They're really great clients to work with.
Chris Do: How do you treat them? Like if Bob needs to be direct, clear, and short, is Tucker the same?
John Driscoll: Yeah, Tucker just probably needs to be a little bit more educated. I think sometimes they're normally very, very proficient at something that they already do, but they need to understand that running a software, starting a software company is a different game and you need to really spend time with them.
So I spent a lot of time hanging out with Tucker's and getting cigars and grabbing lunch or whatever it [00:44:00] might be to really just invest in them. And we become normally very, very good friends in that process.
Chris Do: Let's go to Monday. What do you do with Monday? The potential but lacks resources. Is it a grooming process?
John Driscoll: Very much a grooming process. So that's why we do weekly coaching for our accelerators, and I spend an hour with them every Tuesday. And they really, Bobs aren't going to attend that class, you're never going to see them, but Mondays are very invested in that. And that's more of a long term play with a Monday.
You're basically saying, hey, this is going to take some time, but if they hang in there and they get the right support, they're going to be extremely devoted to what you did to get them there. And you see them just grow and become something really special and it's really, really exciting to watch them grow.
Chris Do: So long term play, support, and it's an investment of your time and energy so that they can become a Tucker.
John Driscoll: Yep. And they're normally a great person [00:45:00] for me to invest in their company or something like that to get some sort of help them with investment, make introductions for them. Because a lot of times they're just lacking opportunity and resources. And if you can do that, they're going to do well.
Chris Do: The bottom two, I think I know what the answer is, but I'm going to ask. Terry, the dreamer, not the doer.
John Driscoll: Don't work with him.
Chris Do: He got burned as fast as you can.
John Driscoll: Very simple. Yeah. Yeah. Terry's, you got a spot because they look like Tuckers. They're often a Tucker clone, but they're not real. And so you, you can get into a real collection problem because they don't pay. Or you've got to really, really spot them because you can put yourself in a bad financial position.
Chris Do: So you just, once you identify them, what do you do? You send them other resources or like, we're not a good fit?
John Driscoll: Yeah. Normally they kind of tell on themselves at some point. And once you spot it, you're like, oh man, I, and you hate it because you probably [00:46:00] got duped by it a little bit and you realize it and you're like, oh, they're one of those. And so we're pretty good at spotting them now. We put hurdles in front of people. And Terry's, I always, I said this at a talk last week.
I always say that they're the biggest talker and the fastest walker. They're just not truly committed to the real process. So if you put enough in front of them, they'll just quit or tell on themselves.
Chris Do: Got it. That was beautiful. Thank you.
John Driscoll: Yeah, you're welcome.
Chris Do: Assuming we got to end that call as fast as possible, right?
John Driscoll: Yeah, get off, get off the call as soon as you can by, you know, just be kind and refer them to your content and hope that they grow at some point in life, you know.
Chris Do: I like that you added the word kindness to it.
John Driscoll: Yeah, you know, you know, it's still your brand and you still want to protect your, who you are to the public and you just, just hope.
Chris Do: I love that you have this whole naming structure. There are no clues as to who these people are. I would have done like Dreamer Dan. Oh, it's Dreamer Dan. We know what to do with Dreamer Dan. [00:47:00] Versus saying Terry, because now we have to decode what Terry means.
John Driscoll: It's funny, they're so well known in our office that you don't even need to have names with them. So I always say the most common are dreamers and gardeners. Dreamers are people that live in the clouds. And they have no idea how to execute what they're doing. Gardeners are people who live in the weeds and they have no idea how to think big. Those are the most common that if you want to break it down to two categories, those are really, really common.
Chris Do: Okay, I'm going to ask you one more personal question that I want to talk about Naked.
John Driscoll: Okay.
Chris Do: Were you naturally likable as a high school student? Were you Mr. Popularity?
John Driscoll: Not necessarily. I was kind of in the middle. I was a little bit of a stoner kid, but yet I also was in ASB. So I played like this two sided world, hung out with the athletes, but I was, more of less of an athlete, you know, when I was younger, I kind of got into athletics later.
But yeah, I [00:48:00] was, I don't know, I don't think I was, I did run for like student office and stuff when I was a kid. But I wasn't, definitely wasn't in the top well known kids. I was just like in just underneath that, probably.
Chris Do: But enough ambition and likeability to run for office. I mean, that says something about you.
John Driscoll: Yeah, yeah. I think I lost, though, one in my freshman year because I think people knew I was also a stoner, which wasn't a great way to get that going.
Chris Do: It could have been the Ozzy Osbourne t shirt and the, you know, denim jacket and the bandana around your leg that gave it away.
John Driscoll: Oh man, I totally have a picture of me in eighth grade with a bandana around my leg, you know, with Motley Crue buttons on my shirt. I was so into the crew in those days.
Chris Do: We didn't talk much about your faith, but you also mentioned in that podcast with Mick about Erwin McManus, a person we have a friend or a person we admire in common. And where the name Naked comes from. Can you explain that and tell us a little bit more about [00:49:00] naked?
John Driscoll: Yeah. So Naked originally came from a biblical verse, you know, naked and unashamed in Genesis. And it's the idea of creation and that's what we do. We create things and we realize God put just the right amount of clothes on us when we were born, which is none. And so when you create a product, it really comes into the world.
You know, a little naked. And so we really enforce that a lot. That's really, if there is a, a core belief with our company, it's really about being lean when you create things, you need to go out and you're going to be a little embarrassed. There's so much great language around it, you know, stripping down ideas.
And, you know, there's so much great language around the concept of naked. And so when you pass the 405 freeway in Irvine, California, you see a big sign that says naked off the freeway. I'm sure people wonder all the time what we are, but it's cause I get a kick out of it when I'm driving [00:50:00] at night and I pass our office.
It's just like, wonder what these people think that that building is some, but it's really, it's very much about creation.
Chris Do: Did you come up with the name because it's provocative? Or did it really come from this place, like, I really think it reflects our philosophy and who I am, and it also happens to be super provocative.
John Driscoll: It was both. I loved it. My kids hated it. They still won't wear my gear. They love what I've done, but I don't, I think if you walk around with gear on that's just naked, it's people like, whoa, what's that? You know, they're worried about wearing it at school or whatever. And it's like, I liked both. I really did.
I had to fight a lot to get, there was a lot of hurdles in the beginning because people were, you know, very much didn't support the concept. But I said, well, that's how brands work. Nobody says anything about Virgin Airlines. And we all like that brand, you know, or liked it. Is it still around? It's not around, right?
Chris Do: It's around ish.
John Driscoll: [00:51:00] Ish. Okay. So it's one of those things that it's often when it's provocative, people are uncomfortable in the beginning. I remember a call, a sales call I made to a group in Alabama. And I said, I said, oh yeah, this is John from Naked. Cause we just say Naked. We don't say naked development.
And I said, this is John from naked. And she goes, John, from what? And I go, John from Naked. She goes, you know, that's not good. Right.
And I've, I've had so many of those comments and it makes me smile really does because I'm just not uptight about it. And I really don't care if you like it. So many people come to us because we are edgy. We gain more than we ever lost, for sure.
Chris Do: I think it says something about you willing to go for it and push and get the team to adopt it and say, we're gonna commit to this. It says you have a sense of humor. You're provocative. You're willing to push things to the edge, but it can be rooted to your faith. And it's a reflection of [00:52:00] your philosophy, which I think is pretty cool. Because you're talking about being transparent, being honest, direct, not caring. And so that is being naked and unashamed.
John Driscoll: Absolutely.
Chris Do: And if you wanted to go even bolder, you could just say, I'm John and I am Naked. As a founder, you know, or co founder.
John Driscoll: Well, you know, since you have creatives on here, we even added the period. After the naked in the logo, because it's about finality. It's about nothing more don't add because people always want to add.
We're always trying to chase perfectionism and it's not good. Perfectionism prevents you from actually accomplishing things. And you have to be willing to throw yourself out there and feel a little embarrassed, you know, and I love that quote by, uh, Reid Hoffman. You know, if you're not embarrassed by your first version, you waited too long.
You have to be a little embarrassed when you go to market, you have to have that. And we, [00:53:00] so that the concept of Naked really kind of set all of it. And the more I've, you know, it's been six years, we've had the brand I'm just so much more married to it today than I even was in the beginning. And I'm so glad I fought for it.
And really got through a lot of criticism in the front end. Even our corporation, we called it Naked apps at first. And that was a major Google problem. And so we had to change that. And so we did that in the first 30 days of the brand being out there. We just realized in our first version, we were like, okay, we got to iterate already.
Chris Do: As our audience can imagine, try typing that in slowly and then see what comes up.
John Driscoll: Yeah. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. It's not good. And we realized that
Chris Do: Not suitable for work
John Driscoll: That was going to have some real challenges. Yeah.
Chris Do: Yeah, I love that. Your SEO and your content game, your inbound marketing must be very good for Peter Thiel to find his way into your thing. That's his volumes, right? Because you're [00:54:00] like, yes, he does Google. I mean, because you say you don't do outbound marketing, it's all inbound. So somehow, through your various efforts, he finds his way into your thing. What do you attribute that to?
John Driscoll: I think it's really, really understanding what your customer is Googling. You should know that very, very well, like to me, it's my obsession understanding the person that I want to meet. What are they looking for? And I think sometimes it's different than people think there's nuances to it and you need to be really, really intimately. A lot of times CEOs will just like outsource that and go, hey, just let somebody handle that.
And that's, great to have good quality people, but you better be involved in that one because that's, that's an intimate relationship is when they are sitting there and they're typing and they're going, hey, I want to find this person. How are they finding that person? What are they typing? And if you don't know the answer to that, I [00:55:00] really have to question whether you know your business at all.
Chris Do: If you don't take anything away from this conversation, answer that question. What is your ideal customer searching for right now? And then answer that question.
John Driscoll: It's so critical because if you can get, put yourself in a place that you don't need customers, or you don't need to look for customers, that is where you want to live.
That is a good place to live because you don't want to go, where am I getting my next meal? You don't want to have to ask that question. And if you are still asking that question, you don't have a repeatable sales process. You can't wake up and know this is how I'm going to get business. You get to start guessing where that next meal is coming from. That's not a great business to live in.
Chris Do: I'm intrigued by this. You've worked with Bank of America, Hyundai, Wells Fargo, PGA, and American Red Cross, and you write on your website, we use tech to grow brands. How do you do that?
John Driscoll: So what I'm obsessed with really when we deep in our consulting is really understanding the goal [00:56:00] of the business. The tech is the vehicle. So it's like, okay, you want to go to point B, too many people in tech are worried about the stack or all these things that get so caught up in the conversation about the tech and people who are hiring you to make tech are probably don't care about tech. There was an article the other day that one of our employees sent and it was about have developers lost the reason why we're developing?
And I think that that conversation is just so missed by so many people. And so we, we sit down and we're like, Hey, when we're dealing with the motion picture association, they're saying they want to make an app. We're like, why? Why do you want to make an app? Why do you think the app is going to do this thing?
So we start, we really obsess about the problem and we obsess about solving that problem through technology. And then there's normally marketing has to be really closely connected to that. [00:57:00] And by marrying all those things together, you get the outcome is successful business ventures, not if tech right now is the best way to do these things, but if it was something else later, I would be doing that thing.
Chris Do: It just happens to be the vehicle of today.
John Driscoll: It's great. It's, you know, it's a great vehicle and it has been for a long time. But it's not. Right now, apps, I really love that market. However, if it was something else, you can guarantee I'd be doing it.
Chris Do: Once you understand the goal of the business, does it ultimately manifest itself into a mobile app?
John Driscoll: If they can't answer that question right, the mobile app, I've told people, you know what I've had people go, I want us to do this content app. And I'm like. I think you should start a YouTube channel. Like, and they're like, why are you saying that? Aren't you trying to sell me an app? I'm like, no, you told me what you want.
And I'm trying to tell you what you should do to get what you want. And by I've talked to people out of making apps many, many times, I think sometimes people have this really [00:58:00] misunderstanding that I make this app. It gets on the store. Everybody downloads it. I'm like, Whoa. That's not how it works. That's a misconception of how this business works.
And then I sit back and I drink margaritas and I make money. Like that's not it. So if I hear that, I hear bad expectations, I try to correct those right away and then ask them what they want. And if what they want is not something that we can help them with, I'd rather have them go do something else.
Chris Do: You sound like you do sales with integrity. You're a person of character, the way that you say that. And there's going to be people who are going to listen. But John, just build the app and be done with it. Now, why wouldn't you just take the money? I think I know why, but why wouldn't you do that? For those people who are hard of hearing.
John Driscoll: I think you're misunderstanding. If you do that, if you take the short term out and just sell and just take the money. You're misunderstanding like the [00:59:00] ramifications of doing business that way. When you do that, you're dealing with a, one, you have a image of scarcity already. You know, you think there's not other customers behind them.
You know, you should be selling out your product every month. If you aren't selling out capacity every month, then you should be working on that. So you have to have the ability to say no to people that aren't a good fit. You don't want to put your team in the place of having to deal with those people.
And you don't want to take business on like that because it's not going to be sustaining. So it's really just not going to get you where you want to go as a company by doing that. And so I'd like to say it's all about integrity, but it's some, some kinds, it's a little bit about me too. It's about not wanting to do that kind of business.
Chris Do: I think you were saying, if I can recall, it's like, you'd like to say it's about integrity, but it's actually about yourself too.
John Driscoll: Yeah, it's, it's just like, if you really value your time and value, what you do and all those things and you have to have [01:00:00] boundaries to really protect you. And I hate wasting my time.
It's one of the things I hate the most. Investing in time in something that is just wasting, wasted effort. That really bugs me and it's a big pet peeve of mine, which is why sometimes I'm impatient. Because I'm like, oh, you're wasting my time right now. Like I gotta go. I think I'm ruthless when it comes to wasting my time. And it sometimes can be off putting for people.
Chris Do: What people don't understand is like, people like you and me, we're invested in customer success. And so if you take the customer's money, you build their thing, and then later on like, you know, this didn't achieve what I wanted, who are they going to blame?
They're going to blame you, and you don't need that energy in the world, right? Not only have you spent money and wasted time and energy, but it's not going to work. And you knew it was not going to work from the beginning. So we kind of have to ask ourselves this question, like, what the heck are you doing then if you're in business just to serve yourself? It's called the service industry for a reason.
John Driscoll: [01:01:00] Absolutely. They are the boss. Really, in the end of the day, I don't sign paychecks, the customer signs the paychecks. And so we have to work so hard at communicating with them, being honest and being up front and pointing out problems and that effort is exhausting and you don't want to do that with somebody that you have zero chance of being successful with.
I see that in my personal relationships, you know, one of my most popular videos is you are the five people you hang out with. And I think that just resonates with people because I think people know that they have friends that they shouldn't be hanging out.
Chris Do: Well, to kind of wrap this up, I mean, you were talking about dating before. It's like, you're not gonna go on a date if you know it's a totally, it's gonna be a disaster. Why would you even do it?
John Driscoll: Yeah.
Chris Do: Just because you're lonely?
John Driscoll: Yeah, I have a matchmaking service, so I get it vetted and weeded out before I have to meet someone. It just, it's easier. Yeah, it's easier. Because if I'm just doing the apps and I'm going through that process, I'm [01:02:00] I'm just going to waste so much time.
Chris Do: I've been talking to John Driscoll. He's the consultant, marketer, speaker, and a growth hacker. He's also the CEO and co founder of a super fun company called Naked Development. John, it's been a pleasure talking to you. This conversation went many different paths. I didn't have any expectations going into today. And I have to tell you, I really enjoyed our conversation.
The Futur: Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sandborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts.
It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. If you'd like to support the show. and invest in yourself while you're at it, [01:03:00] visit thefutur.com and you'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and the creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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