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Jeff Lotman

Jeff Lotman is the founder and CEO of brand licensing agency, Global Icons. You may be asking yourself: what exactly is that? Rest assured, you are not alone. As he puts it, they “operate in an incredibly misunderstood field that no one knows about.”

Invisible marketing
Invisible marketing

Invisible marketing

Ep
104
Oct
28
With
Jeff Lotman
Or Listen On:

Welcome to the world of invisible marketing.

Jeff Lotman is the founder and CEO of brand licensing agency, Global Icons. You may be asking yourself: what exactly is that?  Rest assured, you are not alone. As he puts it, they “operate in an incredibly misunderstood field that no one knows about.”

Except, we see it every day. Remember Flintstones vitamins? You don’t think Hanna Barbera actually created those, do you? In this episode, Jeff and Chris talk about the world of invisible marketing. Pairing brands with products that you wouldn’t think necessarily go together.

BMW strollers, Porsche sunglasses, Forever 21 and the US Postal Service.

A super interesting field that most of us don’t know of, but after hearing about, seems so obvious.

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Episode Transcript

Jeff:
We represent Hostess which makes Twinkies, one of the great foods that are out there and they're really well known cooling in the cake aisle, that's where you see it against other competition. But how cool is it that you can then all of a sudden find them in the cereal aisle or the baking aisle? From the brand owners standpoint, it allows their brand, i.e. Twinkies to be seen by more customers in more places and then more importantly to be seen where their competition isn't.

Greg:
Hi, I'm Greg Gunn and welcome to thefutur podcast. Today's guest is the founder and CEO of brand licensing agency, Global Icons. Now, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is that? And rest assured, you're not alone. As he puts it, they operate in an incredibly misunderstood field that no one knows about, except we see it every day. Remember Flintstones vitamins? You don't think Hanna-Barbera actually created those, do you? Yeah, totally. Neither did I. In this episode, he and Chris talk about the world of invisible marketing. Pairing brands with products that you wouldn't think necessarily go together. BMW strollers, Porsche sunglasses, Forever 21 and the U.S. Postal Service. It is a super interesting field that I had no idea existed, but after hearing about it, seemed so obviously and brilliant. Please enjoy our conversation with Jeff Lotman.

Chris:
Okay, so my audience might be familiar with this idea, it's called a mash-up. It's when two artists or maybe through a DJ or a mixer, puts things together, two genres that don't belong like rap and country. One of the most famous examples that I can think of is an artist who's name is Danger Mouse, he took Jay-Z's black album and The Beatles white album and he put them together and he created magic in between. I think if I understand what you do correctly Jeff, that it's kind of like what you do. You take two things that we love and you smash them together and it's just this wonderful thing. Most of us are completely oblivious to this happening. You write about this in your book called Invisible Marketing, do I have this right Jeff?

Jeff:
I think that's a really interesting way of looking at I and I've never heard it described like that, but I think you're right. That's exactly what we do, we really put a manufacturer together with a brand. You usually have someone that wants to create a product and he's trying to break into the market and they're trying to figure out the best way of doing it and of course they could call it Jeff or they could call it Lamborghini and clearly, their ability to sell it with their name on it compared to my name on it goes up dramatically.

Chris:
Okay. This is fascinating because this is the world that we all kind of are somewhat subconsciously aware of, but until what we learn about what Jeff does then it becomes very clear what's happening. Jeff, for people who don't know who you are, can you introduce yourself and let us all know what it is that you do?

Jeff:
Sure. My name is Jeff Lotman, I'm the CEO of Global Icons, which is a company that I started almost 25 years ago and we're a brand licensing agency. We work in a field that is incredibly misunderstood and no one knows about it. It's really crazy. When you tell them what you do, you only have to give them an example for them to understand it because otherwise they won't get it. It's very frustrating at times at parties.

Chris:
Well, that's interesting because I then have to imagine that you probably don't have as much competition because not that many people understand what it is. Is that true or no?

Jeff:
Yeah, that's good for you. There's not really many people that work in the brand licensing company. In our world, there probably are 10, 15 agencies, there's probably no more than four or five or six that have any real size. It's a great business, 30 years ago is when it hit its stride compared to entertainment licensing like Mickey Mouse on T-shirts that have been around since the early 20s.

Chris:
Right. So I guess a lot of people don't understand this, a company like Disney makes a lot of their money, maybe most of it, through merchandising and licensing and building products based on their entertainment, their IP. Some examples that you gave on a different podcast that I heard you talk about, which will help everybody understand truly what we're talking about is Flintstones vitamins, the Flintstones I think it's Hanna-Barbera did not make those vitamins. The BMW stroller, BMW did not make that stroller and then one that I can think of, I think is Porsche sunglasses, maybe they did make it, but it's licensing.

Jeff:
No, they didn't make that either.

Chris:
Right. It's licensing, they brand equity that somebody that has built up and moving it into different product categories, is that right?

Jeff:
Exactly. I also call it rarefied air because let's face it, what is a brand? A brand by you buying something, it says a lot about how you feel or how you want to feel. When you're going to buy Apple... Let's face it, Apple has built a business not about making the best computers, but really telling people that when you use their computers, you're more creative, you're more clever, you're on trend, you're on edge. While Microsoft is always about we're going to make the best computers and our numbers and our RAM is this and this and Mac never really sold that. They talk about benefits, but it's really more about what it does for you and how it releases your freedom and because of that, people look at it very differently and that's why there's so much passion for Apple compared to Microsoft.

Chris:
Where you come into play is, maybe help me understand this, I'm going to imagine a manufacturer somewhere that wants to attach themselves to a particular brand that's very popular. Is that where you step in and help broker the deal?

Jeff:
Exactly right or a lot of times in the case, we represent Hostess which makes Twinkies, one the great foods that are out there and they're really well known cooling in the cake aisle, that's where you see it against other competition. But how cool is it that you can then all of a sudden find them in the cereal aisle or the baking aisle? From the brand owners standpoint, it allows their brand, i.e. Twinkies to be seen by more customers in more places and then more importantly to be seen where their competition isn't. When they're trying to sell against, call it Tastykakes, they're not going to find Tastykakes in the cereal aisle, so there's the other benefit there too.

Chris:
Right. That's like brand extension and deepening the relationship with the customer in areas that they're not looking. I have a bunch of questions here from a business point of view. You represent Hostess and you broker a deal, so somebody else who's going to make the cereal licenses the [inaudible 00:07:01] property from Hostess, how much control input do they have over the end product?

Jeff:
In every contract the actual brand owner, the licensor has tremendous control from the packaging to the product to the testing to even distribution channels. You can't necessarily talk about price because then you get in issues of monopoly, but you can talk about that I only want it sold in premium retail or it can't be sold in dollar store channel, so a lot of channels or distribution channels are set by different levels like that, but you have complete control of every single aspect and if you're not happy with it, the product doesn't go for sale.

Chris:
I see. They're involved in the way it tastes, the way it looks and everything and whoever is licensing this has to get it approved by the licensor?

Jeff:
Sure. And in some cases, like when we did generators for Ford, they had to pay for outside testing agencies to prove that it met certain safety criteria because let's face it, you can't be an expert at everything. When you're dealing with products that are a little bit more mechanical, it's important to have other people that are going to be testing it to make sure it works. The last thing you want to do is, is have a generator that when it comes time when your power's out, it doesn't work and it's got the Ford name on it. That's really not good for the brand.

Chris:
Right. I imagine sometimes this probably does happen, right?

Jeff:
Well, things are going to break. Ford will break too sometimes, but clearly you want to make sure that it really the rarity and not the norm.

Chris:
Okay. You already pointed out one advantage, which is spaces that normally people don't think about me and it's building the strength of my brand, that's obvious. Now number two, is the licensor making money off this?

Jeff:
Oh, most definitely. And honestly, the bigger the company it is the less that money truly matters because I think the other benefits are more important because... What's really amazing is you think about advertising, you think about TV and you think about radio and you think about PR. These are all different methods that brands try to get you to try their product and they all have benefits and all challenging, but there's so many people doing it. The cool thing that we do in licensing is we actually create a product and that's a product that you can then take home, you can eat, you can wear and in the case of the stroller, you can put your kid in it. And it allows you to build a very deep relationship because someone has taken this into your home and it could be a T-shirt that they're wearing proudly like as a brand ambassador and you can't do that with any other form of advertising. This is the part that's so cool in that it's so frustrating from my standpoint because most people don't get it.
They don't understand that this is the greatest thing in the world and you get paid for it. It's not like you're writing a $100 million check to an advertising agency, we're writing checks to the brands.

Chris:
Can you tell me just broadly speaking, how these deals are structured? Like if I have a brand and I'm hearing this later on and I think I need to start working with Jeff and Global Icons. What do the deals look like?

Jeff:
Sure. Well, let's talk about this in a couple different areas. From the licensor standpoint, if you were a manufacturer and you wanted to use a brand on a T-shirt, different categories have different royalty rates and they usually have to do with the amount of margin that the product can actually carry. In the case of food, the margin's on food are always really tight. The royalty rate, the rate of which you pay the brand owner for the right to use their brand is also less. You could be spending three to five percent of wholesale sales, so let's say you have an item that was selling for $1, you'd literally be paying three to five cents on that dollar back to the brand owner for the right to use their packaging or logo or name or ingredient in your product.

Chris:
That's not a lot of money.

Jeff:
No, it really isn't. But understand, when you start adding it up and you talk about selling 100,00 units or a million dollars of wholesale or $2 million or $10 million wholesale, the numbers become pretty meaningful.

Chris:
In food, you're saying the margins are pretty tight. Where is an area where the margins are much bigger?

Jeff:
Apparel tends to be larger margins, you're in the 10 to 12%. Obviously, if you have a brand that is going absolutely nuts, more of an entertainment property, let's say Lady Gaga, you obviously could get that much more. In the case of most brands that we represent, you normally can get between eight to 10% royalty rate on a T-shirt. If you're selling a T-shirt for $20 retail, which is $10 wholesale you're making, call it a dollar a shirt in royalty.

Chris:
Okay. Great. In your experience, how do you determine which brands are worth pursuing in terms of, yeah, I think you got something and we can help you find a manufacturing partner?

Jeff:
There's an old expression that fortune follows fame and it's really true. A lot of times people come to us, they're like, "I'm really well known in Southern California." Or "I'm really well known in Houston." And it's true, there are certain brands that you can actually have the ability to expand in a regional market, but it really needs to be at least known in a bigger, wider area and have some pretty significant awareness to really do anything that's out there. Otherwise, it becomes very hard and you end up just giving your brand away almost for nothing because you're really desperate to get someone else to do a deal and it's just too early, honestly. You shouldn't be doing it.

Chris:
Can you tell me one of the most creative things you had to put together that had one of these challenges where, yeah, we believe what you have is good, but now we have to find the right manufacturer to make this work?

Jeff:
Sure. We were hired many years ago by a company called Jarden. Jarden is a very large company that owns a ton of brands. Everybody from Crock-Pot, which is a company that I worked with, to I can't think of the big camping brand, but anyway it's an incredibly large company. They even get involved in skis and so on and so forth, but they came to us because Crock-Pot's been around for a long time and because of it, it sold in the electric aisle and the electric aisle is one of the most boring aisles there are because let's face it, you're with toasters and microwaves and how often do you initially go buy a new microwave or a new toaster? It's not that often, but when you want it, obviously you've got to be there. So that's why this aisle is always there, but you never see a lot of people in that aisle because unless it's time for wedding gifts, you're buying Cuisinart's it's not a lot of people in that aisle.
To get someone to think about your brand, it's really hard. And then when you're there, there's a lot of other competition that's selling against you, so Crock-Pot really wanted to find a way to break out of that competition. As we looked at it, we really felt that, let's face it, a Crock-Pot is a slow cooker, it allows you to make product for a longer period of time and it creates a certain flavor profile. But what if we can make that process easier for the consumer, what if we could give you some spices that would work great for a Crock-Pot? What if we could give you ingredients that you could put in your Crock-Pot and cook it? These are the kind of products that we launch that have done very well that are still selling and it was a real challenge because now all of a sudden you are taking the Crock-Pot and occasionally it was being sold in an end cap in the food aisle.
Again, the beauty is that there is obviously no other slow cookers that are being opposite that product in that aisle, but also it was just a great way for someone to see the brand and have a chance to experience.

Chris:
That's a great example. Very kind of out of the box thinking.

Jeff:
Well, you're taking something that's non-consumable and turning it into a consumable.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Okay, I want to circle back to something because if you listen and read the writings of thought leaders in the marketing and advertising space, they're going to warn you against something like this and I would love for you to talk about this. Which is brand dilution, where you try to be too many things to many people and you start to lose the core of who you are. The example we talked about earlier in the podcast here is that BMW is the ultimate driving machine, at least that was their tagline for a while, it's the driver's car. If you want to get a luxurious car get a Mercedes, but if you really love the thrill of driving, you want to feel connected to the road, you buy a BMW. In an example that we're talking about in terms of licensing the BMW name to a stroller, now I get it, I guess you can push your kid around, but at what point does it get into brand dilution territory?

Jeff:
I think brand dilution is a realistic issue. And I think the idea is that it's important that you can't do too many things, that you really have to understand who the customer you're trying to target or more specifically, who's the customer you don't have that you're trying to target, which is the other opportunity to do with licensing. But in the case of BMW stroller, what was really interesting is the stroller company which is Maclaren who actually took the rights, is a very high end stroller company and they do a lot of collaborations. For them, what they saw was an opportunity is that 90% of strollers are bought by women or probably 80%, 20% for men. They really felt that BMW being very strong excuse as a male brand, when really put itself in there in the male space and have a chance to sell more strollers to men.
What normally would have been a one season deal, they ended up doing it for three years and doing a couple of different models. Even doing a more advanced model, like an M version which is even more expensive and it did really great because men thought it was cool to buy the stroller. "Oh my god, I'm going to put my kid in a BMW stroller, how cool is that?" It was a great success for everybody. For BMW and for Maclaren and of course for us as the agent that makes the money too.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Where do you see this go wrong? If a brand or a manufacturer wanted to get into certain space with a brand and you just kind of know, I don't think that's a good move for your brand. How do you become a good steward of the brand and say, "Look, there's money on the table, but I don't think this is it."

Jeff:
I think those are various different questions. There's a lot of brands that make mistakes and it makes you wonder, who's the person that actually said yes to it. But I think you really have to understand your brand and again, who the customer is and you got to really be careful that you don't try to be too many things to too many people. That the tighter you are, the more successful it's going to be. Effective brand licensing isn't doing a lot of deals, it's just doing the right deals for the right customers and the right categories.

Chris:
Okay, great. In terms of being a student of marketing, this is often something that is talked about. Like Mini Cooper comes back to America, it's this really fun, sporty car. It's diminutive in its size and I guess, maybe through pressure of the American buying appetite, they started to make bigger and bigger cars, so Mini is not so mini anymore, it's maxi now and do you think in that case they've lost a little bit of... That's even within the internal brand, not even licensing at this point. Do you have a take on something like that?

Jeff:
I think that's really perceptive of you and I do agree. I think they probably pushed it a little bit far. I think what was really cool about Mini is that it was mini and that was a part of who they were and they fought that at times. It's funny because they're were a lot of deals that we had which they didn't want to do because they felt that because the people wanted to do mini Mini items, of course which at first would make sense, they never wanted to do because they felt that hit too hard on the word mini. Where the one thing they did understand that what Mini was about was really as they described as a twinkle in the eye. That products needed to have a sense of humor to it, something that really was unique. We represented Mini too because they were also owned by BMW.
We did these speakers that were in the shape of a side view mirror and they were super cool and they still sell them and it looks just like a side view mirror, but it's a speaker. It's that kind of stuff that really fit well with that brand because it is that kind of, oh that's kind of fun, kind of attitude that they really were looking for. Like they did refrigerators with that great brand Smeg in Mini colors.

Chris:
Oh, nice.

Jeff:
It looked almost like the roof of a Mini, but it was a refrigerator. It was just fun, and that's the one thing that they really understood and they wanted to make sure that things were like that, that you almost smiled when you saw it, "Oh, that's cool."

Chris:
Yeah, even you describing that makes total sense. Now, I've not seen the Mini Smeg refrigerator, but Smeg is a British brand and Mini is a British brand, right, that's their heritage?

Jeff:
Yes.

Chris:
And you put those two together and they're small refrigerators and they have a very distinctive kind of round look to them.

Jeff:
It's a very retro looking, right.

Chris:
Yeah, they are. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so here's something that I saw on your site, I'm going to talk about your site in a little bit, but that I thought this is really dope. When I saw this thing with Forever 21 and the collaboration here is just bananas to me, but when I see it, it's like, god that's really smart. With USPS, Priority Mail fashion, that is totally out of the box and I love seeing that because I'm a guy who likes graphics and typography and labels and utility in design and putting those two together was just so cool to see. Tell me how that deal came together and was it a hit or what happened?

Jeff:
Well, it was a hit. But I'll tell you, it almost didn't happen because the Post Office was obviously very nervous because this is clearly a bit of a left turn for them and it was also, as you saw, some of the stuff was a little edgy. Some of the tube shirts and all that were a little bit on the edgy side and initially, even though it was approved by the small work group that does the stuff at the Post Office, some of the people above were like, "Ooh, I wasn't really comfortable with it." But then, what's even more interesting because we heard about these complaints, is about a month or so later, it all changed. What happened is the kids were like telling their mother and father, "Oh my god, that's so cool. You guys are cool, that's really a great product. We like that." And all of a sudden they understood what we were trying to accomplish.
Because the Post Office wanted to youthify and make their brand more relevant to the youth, because let's face it, I have a 17, 18 year old daughter, they don't use a stamp. They don't send something in the mail, almost never. How do you try to make that experience fun and friendly? And that's what the goal was and that's where we tried to look at what could have done that and Forever 21 was very excited about the idea and it worked out great. We even did a second deal, I forgot one of these limited edition brands, like uncommon common or uncommon citizen or something, anyway. Same thing, they took the brand also and thought it was a very unique opportunity and it's great because it makes us more cool. Let's face it, you wouldn't call the Post Office cool, normally.

Chris:
Right. I want to imagine that there's this wonderful back story about how this even began in the first place because it's such an unusual mash-up between two brands. Is there some crazy story that goes with this?

Jeff:
Not really. It really was the fact that they gave us a brief that they're like, "How can you help us overcome this stigma that exists that is just sort of a lack of awareness and what can you do that would really target that?" And we started trying to figure out what products were really worthwhile and if you think about it, if you're going after the youth one of the best places to go after youth is in fashion because that's where they shop and play and they like to be things that are different. Well, if you're going to be in fashion, then you want to be something a little edgy if you're going to go after that customer. Once you define that, it really narrows it down to one of the retailers that really would make sense and from there it was hoping that one would say yes. And we were excited because honestly, we didn't know if it was going to work. Let's face it, it's hard to get that over the line, but Forever 21, they loved it.
They loved the fact that no one had ever done something like this before, the Post Office, that they truly were going to be unique. They thought the graphics, as you talked about, as I do, they're so cool. They're so iconic, they've been around and you know it immediately and so far away. When you have that kind of power of a logo, it's really wonderful. They loved the fact they had that kind of iconography to really work with and they did a great job, they really nailed it. When we first saw it, we were like, I hope they're going to approve this stuff because it was a little edgy. But it was great and it sold out, they were thrilled. We were very happy.

Chris:
Wow. If I remember, you're in Brentwood, right? You have an office here, but you have multiple offices throughout the world, right?

Jeff:
Yes.

Chris:
Okay. I'm thinking there's an episode from Entourage somewhere, because you're the big man at the top. You're like, "Okay, gang." And there's this gigantic boardroom and you call your team in. "So here's what we have. USPS wants to do something edgy, fun, be relevant to young people. What have we got?" And then your agents go running around, they come back and they pitch a bunch of ideas to you and you're like, "That's the winner. It's dangerous, it's risky. Let's do that." Am I exaggerating what happens in the real world?

Jeff:
Oh my god, I wish I was that cool, but I'm not.

Chris:
Come on, you can sell it. You can sell it.

Jeff:
I could sell it. You did a great job and I could have played along, but the reality is that when we get a brand, normally what happens in the process from our side is that we usually have to pitch clients to want to hire us. In that process, we'll come to them with some ideas that we think are worthwhile, so we do some initial brainstorming. Now mind you, when we first pitched the Post Office, we were not pitching apparel. We talked about upcycling some of their products. They did a lot of things with the old mail bags and other things that they had and old mail boxes and we done a lot of things in the cool upcycling. We talked about using the great stamp art, all the stuff that would make sense, but this was not on the list. Normally, once we get a client and they then explain to us what they're looking for, then we go back and do the brainstorming and then we come to them and we always come up with some things that are totally loony and would never get done.
Because I always find you got to go that far out to try to make sure you're not missing something and you may end up coming up with something that you don't think of. There's a great guy called Ed de Bono and he wrote a book called Lateral Thinking and basically it's taking to disparate items and squishing them together, sort of as we started at the beginning of your conversation and how you can come up with something really cool. That was what his whole premise, there's a couple of really great books written on it. At one point, he really sold this really great ball that you would spin around that had maybe 30,000 words and the idea was that you took these two words that really didn't connect and how do you connect them? It caused your brain to connect in that sort of way. That's the kind of stuff we try to do.
We really try to find things that are unique and interesting, but at the end of the day it still has to connect with the customer. In this case, we wanted to connect with youth to the brand. It wasn't like we're going after something so different that it was totally disconnected and you see it sometimes. At one point, Zippo lighters who I love and we've done a lot of business with them, they actually did a Zippo perfume. I'm like, okay how'd that get over the line?

Chris:
Does it smell like fuel?

Jeff:
You're going to smell like fuel. But you know what's funny, is I spoke to them because they're really good people and they're like, "In Europe, it did really well. For some reason it really connected with the youth." It didn't obviously smell like perfume, but it was more like cool and interesting because what people don't really think about Zippo, it's the sound. It's that click and that's why they always use it in movies because you know that click, means something's going to light. It's become so ingrained in our head and I think the sound is patented as a matter of fact because it is so unique that it's so much a part of their brand and who they are. They've done a lot of other great licensing, but that was one that didn't work. Sometimes, things just don't work because the brand's disconnected. I'll give you an example, we represented Duraflame, they make the logs that are made out of different materials that are used in the fireplace and it always says don't cook on them. Before we got hired by them, they went ahead and did a deal for Sterno.
Sterno is that liquid that you light and you put under a chafing dish if you're at a party to keep things hot. And Sterno is the brand, they are Kleenex, they are the definitive... Everyone knows what it is. Someone wanted to take the rights and a manufacturer wanted to put Duraflame on liquid gel containers and sell them and they could not. You'd think it be natural because Duraflame means heat, but it also means heat that you can't cook on.

Chris:
I see.

Jeff:
And consumers had a hard time making a leap of, even though you're never touching the food, it's underneath the container. Hello? It's not like you're cooking directly, not like I'm toasting a marshmallow on the can because you can't do that with Sterno either, you'd kill yourself, it's a liquid gel. But for some reason, people really had a hard time making that connection or the disconnection of that it was okay to eat on food and it didn't work. Now contrary on the other side, when we represented them we actually put them in electric heaters and that was a huge success because it meant heat in your room when you couldn't necessarily have a fireplace and that is still doing incredibly well. That's an example of a company, as you started early on, who is a manufacturer who is looking for a great brand, who was the private label guy. Meaning that at Target or Walmart or one of the above, or Costco, they would be the guy making it for their brand. In the case of Costco, it could be the Kirkland brand and you wouldn't know who's making it.
The problem is when you're the private label guy is that if I came in and if I was selling a heater and you were selling it at $16 wholesale and I'm coming in at the same heater at $15.50, the odds are higher you're going to get thrown out. Because these guys, especially Walmart, they're really tight on margin and they got to be competitive and if someone really has the exact same product for less, if you can't fix it, you're going to lose it. The problem is you don't want to be in that position because you're can be tossed out and the way you protect that position, from a manufacturer's standpoint, of course is to have a brand. Because we've talked about all the benefits for a licensor, but from the licensee it gives the ability to build something that you own that is defensible that keeps other people away.
In the case of the heater company and the company was doing, call it, low eight figures, I didn't really want to get into specifics when we first met them. That thing is just blowing up, it's been so successful and it's been going on for about eight or nine years and they're doing really high in the eight figures. They've really, really done great and they're thrilled because what was supposed to be 20% of their business has become almost 80% of their business with this whole line of Duraflame electric heaters and you now see them everywhere. It was the example of just a really perfect brand extension where that worked, where the liquid get was just it.

Greg:
Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back with more from Jeff Lotman.

Ben:
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Check out all of our courses and products about running a creative business by visiting thefutur.com/business.

Greg:
Welcome back to our conversation with Jeff Lotman.

Chris:
Okay, there's a bunch of things that you're talking about here for all our brand and design enthusiasts that I have to go back and kind of pick apart and highlight a little bit for everybody to understand here. Duraflame has done a wonderful job of communicating who they are. They make these logs to warm your home or your apartment, but they warn you it's toxic if you try to cook with it on an open flame. You should not treat it like a regular log.

Jeff:
that's right. It's meant for heating, it's not for cooking.

Chris:
They've done such a good job of making sure the consumer doesn't use it in inappropriate ways and gets sick, heaven forbid and they die.

Jeff:
And they own a category. They are the category killer in that when you think of a log that you're going to buy that's designed like that, that's what you're first thinking of is Duraflame. They own the brand.

Chris:
I can't even think of who's number two. It doesn't register in my brain. When they tried to do something that was related to cooking, it was one of those misalignments and even though technically, it's fine, it's just the message is so clear and that's the strength of a brand. You helped them to find something that was a more natural fit.

Jeff:
Heating.

Chris:
Keep your home warm, heating, that's right and you did that deal, so that's fantastic.

Jeff:
Right.

Chris:
That kind of brand extension really strengthens the brand, so the message is clear. Again, it's to keep you warm, not to eat, but to keep you warm.

Jeff:
And for the manufacturer, it gave them something that was much harder for them to be tossed out of a retailer.

Chris:
Yes.

Jeff:
Because when you come in and you're saying no names and all of a sudden you're saying a Duraflame heater, you're like, "Oh, that looks kind of cool. I'll take that Duraflame electric heater and I'll put it in my house." And because of it, they were able to build that kind of awareness and sort of protected them from other people trying to come in and take the market away or beat them on price. And you can charge a premium because you're like, "Well, of course I'm going to pay $1 more or $2 more for Duraflame because it's better." Now mind you, it better be better, as we talked about earlier with the generator, and it was. They did a great job and they were already in that space, they knew the business.

Chris:
Better can be defined in a lot of different ways, right? Better can be like it has a better function or it has better design. In the case of the BMW stroller, the leather from the BMW factory, the badging, certain things that communicate to the end customer, like yeah, if BMW made a stroller, that's what it would look like.

Jeff:
A hundred percent, it even could just be better looking. You think about cool design, design is so important. I think about again, back to Microsoft and Apple, think about the iPad and the iPhone and how well they've done with great design. Sure, it's great functionality, but it's also super cool. I can't wait for the iPhone 12 and I have bought every single one of those phones the day they came out. I hate to admit it, I'm in line, I'm there, I am that guy.

Chris:
You're one of those people.

Jeff:
I am.

Chris:
They have a strong tribe, what can I say? I am an Apple person myself too. I want to get back to this thing where you said, "All right, if we want to work with in the case of the Post Office, we have to come and we have to pitch some ideas that are going to work for them." And you said you come in and you also find where the edge is, not only from a creative point of view, but just to know we've explored the spectrum here. We're doing our job. I'm just curious what these pitches or presentations look like. Are you using designers to mock things up to fill in the imagination gap?

Jeff:
Good for you. Yes, we do. We have an art department internally because we find it's easier when you show and idea versus just say it. Look, we're very visual people. We learn visually, so because of it, it's just easier. We may come up with eight or 10 or even 15 different categories that we think could make sense for your brand and mind you, we even say you shouldn't do them all at once, but you could look at them as these ones make sense first and then if those are successful, you could do those, but we definitely think the ones we think are the most coolest, we tend to mop them up. Nowadays, my god, it's so easy with Photoshop and so on and so forth. But yes, it's a big part of what we do. We do a lot of presentations, a lot of mock-ups and of course we have our case studies showing what we've done with brands and in categories and success stories showing what's occurred.
Because these things take time. The worst thing about our business, it takes a long time. It's 18 to 24 months minimum from the time you sign a contract until stuff gets on shelf because they got to make a prototype. It's got to be approved, the packaging has to be approved, it's got to be sold. Sometimes it's being made in China, it's got to get on a boat. All these things take time, so by the time you sign a deal to the time it gets on shelf, it takes a while. That's why it's so important to find the right partner, like in the case again this heater guy. Here was a guy that was proven, he was selling heaters, he knew what he was doing. He's been in business for a while, he knew that he had the finances to really go ahead and support it. That's the kind of partner that you really want, someone that can invest in your brand that has stability and sometimes you get it wrong.
We've done analysis because we always had people fill out a business plan and it talks about their banking references. Sometimes people go out of business anyway, especially look, in light of what's going on right now which is a whole different situation. It's important to find the right partner because those guys are really going to break their hump for you and it's important our [inaudible 00:36:40] are really going to break their hump for you.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- I want to talk about that, but I'm just curious from your point of view, how important on a scale from one to 10 is that visual that that persons making that's going to help seal the deal?

Jeff:
I think it really matters and even in terms of the deck itself. Again, I've been doing this for a long time and we've gone through a lot of versions of the positioning, the presentation. You look at how Power Point has really changed our business and in terms of before, it used to be like the more words, the better. How many words can I cram on a page? And then it became the less words, the better and then it became the biggest image better and you always have to constantly evolve your presentation and we're actually doing that again right now. It's just non stop because, look, when I'm going up against what are some really capable companies, the nice thing is because we have a small business, I know most of the owners of the companies. They're all good people, they all do good work. It's not like there's a lot of great work done by my competitors, there's no two ways about it that I admire, so we have to really stand up against them.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Because I'm a big believer, obviously there's a lot of bias because I'm into visual arts myself and I try to emphasize to people who follow me, make that image right because that one image could sell and you don't have to talk so much anymore. If it's [crosstalk 00:38:02].

Jeff:
There's no two ways about it, you're 100% right. That's why we've spent so much time and we've bought great photography because it really matters. And if your deck is being left behind as it is a lot and someone didn't see it before that was in the room, that could be all they could get to seal the deal on you. You're 100% right, if someone goes, "Oh, that's really cool." But then you also take a risk because of if you mock something up and they go, "Oh my god, we would never do spaghetti." And here you have this great mock-up of this family eating spaghetti with their brand, you also shot yourself in the foot and that happens sometimes too. But usually now, very rarely do we get shot in the foot because we created the wrong product, but it has happened in the past.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- You brought this thing up also about, okay we have ideas from the brand and they're excited and then you also need to vet the manufacturer because you got to make sure they have a solid business model and the operations and the financing the capitals there to make it work. You're like the match maker because the deal only works if you have a great manufacturer because if they go bankrupt, if their products are defective, it hurts everybody involved, right?

Jeff:
That's right. We're just like a talent agent for brands. Talent agents try to get their actor a job, we're trying to get brands a manufacturer that wants to use their product and sometimes it doesn't work. Our first client was Elite Modeling, the modeling agency that's been around forever and they had a really good program in Europe. They were doing everything from hosiery to hair accessories to makeup, all the things that you think, okay, I get it, modeling, hosiery, shoes and we could not sell it for anything here in the United States. Sometimes things just don't work and I don't know why. I know the guy that runs it and even after we left and we didn't do it, he still struggled. Certain brands just make sense and certain brands just don't connect with customers. That happens. We've been hired by people, it doesn't work.
And then sometimes we've had clients that came [inaudible 00:40:08] we had a fire because they hire us to do deals and they don't do deals and then we only eat what we kill, so if they deal doesn't happen, we don't get paid. Because we get a piece of the piece and it can be very frustrating if someone hires you to do something and then they decide, "We don't really want to do that anymore."

Chris:
Okay, you brought it up. I love this. I think you said before that the deals could be anywhere between say three to 10% of...

Jeff:
Wholesale sales, right.

Chris:
Wholesale sales. And then you're making a piece of the three to 10% or you're adding it up?

Jeff:
Exactly right. We're making a piece of the piece.

Chris:
Okay, so what piece of the piece are you making?

Jeff:
Usually, it's about a third.

Chris:
Okay.

Jeff:
Yeah. The brand is getting 70% and we're getting 30%.

Chris:
For as long as the deal is working, you're making your royalty or your percentage of that?

Jeff:
Yes, most of the time.

Chris:
Okay, that's fantastic because then some seed that you've planted because the process is actually pretty lengthy between 18 to 24 months, which is two years. You're not going to eat for two years, you planted a seed and you're going to wait.

Jeff:
That's why it's a very hard business to start up because it takes so long. Listen, some brands will pay you a retainer because let's face it, you're doing work for really nothing for a while, but the retainer it just helps, doesn't really make the difference. The real money comes in when you really get a great program that's out there for a while that's really been selling and produces great royalties. And then things have shelf life, like the Forever 21, that was meant to be two seasons and it was in and it was out, they sold out the inventory, everybody was happy, but then it's over. So then you have this great deal, it generated really nice royalties and then it's gone and then you got to find something else to do because you got to replace that money.

Chris:
Yeah. I imagine that you're in this constant state of pitching ideas, planting seeds and watering and harvesting and you got to keep doing that because you won't know if it's a monster hit or not until two years later and you just can't wait. You got to keep the pipe full so to speak.

Jeff:
You got to keep it going. Honestly, if you like that as I do, I love it. It's non stop deal making and you have to have a lot of things as you said, a lot of things up there because you got to keep the wheel going and we have staff around the world and offices around the world, but once you get it going it's a great business. Again, hopefully you get some really great clients that have been around for a long time that really can build a significant business on and it's a great business. That's why I love it, I really love what I do.

Chris:
Is the deal structured in such a way like this idea with the Post Office and Forever 21 sold out that derivative ideas you're able to participate in?

Jeff:
Well, yeah. If, for example, you did something with Forever 21 and it sold out and they said, "Look, we really want to do a line of shoes with the Post Office." It still would be our deal, it's still our relationship, yes.

Chris:
Yeah. Okay. Then I have to ask this question, if it sold out and was popular, why not just keep doing it?

Jeff:
Unfortunately, a lot of these guys look at these as marketing opportunities and for them, they wanted to create a lot of excitement. It's like why do drops in wanted companies like Supreme do so incredibly well is that their very much about scarcity and they're about the fact that it's only for a limited period of time, there's not that many of them and tomorrow there's going to be something different and people like that. In the case of Forever 21, they did this great program and then it was gone. Like Maclaren stroller, they had done everything from The Beatles Yellow Submarine, which was a really cute stroller and many, many others, but they were all meant to be in and out. They were in for one season and the next one comes along because it gives them something to talk about and it keeps the press and people excited, "Oh my god, look at this. We really should..."
Because of course, every year people are having babies, so there was always a new customer.

Chris:
Right.

Jeff:
So you had to figure out how you're going to hook the next customer.

Chris:
I see. Okay, so they're doing these brand collaborations as part of buzz and hype marketing. As we keep talking about this, I get really excited because it's like more ideas are peculating in my mind, it's like, "Oh my god, the reason why I love that was because of exactly what it is that you do." One of my favorite things to do is to buy skateboards and there was this thing between Girl Skateboards and Kodak, which are two crazy mash-ups because what does Kodak film have to do with skateboarding? But they used the graphics and the language of all the different film packaging and they put it on the boards and it looked amazing. As a fan of Kodak and Girl Skateboards and graphic design, they found this great way to come together.

Jeff:
Yeah and there's so much of those kind of things happen that are truly great brands and great visuals that people try to find unique and different ways of doing that. We did it with Supreme and Lamborghini. We represent Lamborghini, Supreme came to us and they wanted to use the Lamborghini logo and they did some really cool stuff and the product was going to launch right as the shut down was happening and they were like, "Well, now what do we do?" They felt, "Our audience is strong, it's going to do well." And in 26 minutes the entire thing sold out. I'm like, "Man, these guys have a great thing going."

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- They do. They're just printing money at this point.

Jeff:
They are printing money and good for them. They understand their brand, they understand their customer, they understand what will sell and they understand scarcity and I give them a lot of credit. I really do.

Chris:
You mentioned Lamborghini a couple of times, they're one of your clients, right?

Jeff:
Yes.

Chris:
Do you have an exclusive relationship with your clients?

Jeff:
We do in most cases. In most cases, we have exclusive or at the very least we have exclusive categories, like in the case of Jarden, they hired us for food for Crock-Pot. We weren't really doing anything else, but they specifically said we need help in food and that's when they hired us. Before I started this company, I was in the food business for 18 years. I was a supplier to McDonald's and Kraft and others, so I really have a very strong food background and manufacturing background and quality and so on and so forth. It's a world I know, manufacturing very well and it's something that we've been very successful and it's an area that we've also really focused a lot in because it's a great business. Because compared to other categories, you can be in market very quickly. As we talked about, it takes 18 to 24 months to get in store. In food, it's not the case because most buyers in large retailers, they buy for certain seasons and they buy it 18 or 24 months out. Where food, if they're like, "Oh my god, those sausages are great."
There's a good chance you can make room in the supermarket pretty quickly for your product, so you can be in market in six months with a great salad dressing or in the case of Twinkies cereal, that was a huge hit for Post with Twinkies.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Fantastic. Do you do brand deals where it's between two brands and not a brand and a manufacturer? Like with Supreme and Louis Vuitton, are you brokering those kinds of deals too?

Jeff:
Yeah. They're called co-branded deals. Usually a co-branded deal is done when you have a brand that is very well known in one category, wants to do something that's unique in that same category. But the new brand doesn't really play that well, so if you look at... Let me give you a great category like watches. People that buy different quality watches because you know the watch maker what they do, but you've also seen a lot of car collaborations with watches and very rarely do you see a Lamborghini or a Porsche. Porsche has their own watches, but most of the ones that are out there are dual branded. Like the Bentley Breitling which is one that's been around for a long time. Or Jaguar and Jaeger Lecoultre or Ferrari and I think it's Hublot, all these are dual branded because you have someone who really knows watches with someone who has a really cool brand. That's an easy example for dual branding when you have two brands that come together that are both strong in different areas.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- In the case of the watches, does the car manufacturer get involved in the design of it, or they just leave it up the watch manufacturer to do their thing?

Jeff:
Oh, most definitely. Usually the watch manufacturer will take the first stab at it, but believe me, the car manufacturers because they really care about design obviously, very much get involved.

Chris:
I know I have at least one more question to ask you and then maybe there's some things that you want to talk about that I haven't asked you yet, but the one question I want to ask you is this, is that you seem like you're the guy I need to get to know if I'm a manufacturer. I'm a manufacturer listening to this, how do I get in touch with you? How do you decide who you want to work with?

Jeff:
honestly, we get an awful lot of incoming emails from people saying, "Hey, I'm a manufacturer of these T-shirts. I really want to see if it can use x-brand or y-brand." And we're pretty accessible, you can get through our website, it's jeff.lotman@globalicons.com. It's pretty easy to get ahold of us, I'm very responsive on LinkedIn. I see a lot things all the time that are like, "Oh that's really cool." And I love to find inventor brands sometimes where things that are not necessarily all that big, but is like super cool like there was this company that invented this technology to have a toy car walk up a wall. I don't know if you remember this, it was five or six years ago.

Chris:
I think I remember this, yeah.

Jeff:
We represented at the time, Humvee and represented them for a long time, almost 15 years. They came to us and they wanted to use Humvee, because the world's toughest vehicle as this toy that literally would walk up a wall. They showed us this prototype a year and a half before the car came out and we were like, "Oh my god, that toy really walks up a wall. That car will climb up a wall, how cool is that?" And we gave a guy that was much smaller than you normally would a shot because they really had a great technology or something that is truly unique. That thing was the hottest toy two years later at Christmas. Even Letterman had it on his show and the whole thing just exploded. You just don't know, but we love to find new technology because a lot of brands want to be seen as doing things that are cool and on edge and a great way of doing that is working with inventor groups.
We have a great office in Hong Kong and they try to find things first because you see a lot of things like that being developed, especially in the tech area out of that area and that's why it's important for our office to be there to see those kind of things.

Chris:
I have another question here in that, okay, I'm not a manufacturer, I don't have a brand, but I have some ideas. Do you have space where I could do mock-ups and pitch you ideas where either I can get paid for or get a percentage of the percentage of the percentage? Do you do that?

Jeff:
It's really hard to try to develop something from scratch. Developing brands are very a difficult thing to do. It takes a long time for a brand to get going and it's also really hard just to pitch an idea because people come to us, "Oh, I have this great art design. I took these cats and I put flags on their backs and they're really cool and you really should sell them and I can do this stuff. I know that I have this big following and I have 3,000 follows on Instagram." It's really tough, there's a lot of people out there, especially in art licensing because a lot of art is great and you say to yourself, like there's a guy named Thomas Kinkade who now has passed which was the painter of light, is what he used to call himself. And man, they used to be able to license that stuff over the moon and I always thought candidly, that the stuff was not exactly all that appealing from an art standpoint, but they licensed the hell out of it. They really did.
I give them a lot of credit, but the people are like, "Oh, my stuff is every bit as Thomas Kinkade," or picking the artist. That's a really tough category, especially art licensing because there's so many people that can do beautiful art.

Chris:
Let me rephrase the question, I don't think I asked it the right way. Let's say before the Forever 21 deal came together with the Post Office and I'm sitting around and I'm a DIY upcycling kind of guy and I start putting up mock-ups together and I'm like, "This is dope. I would like to see this as a fashion line somewhere." And I do mock-ups. Would you be open to them calling you or submitting some ideas and say, "Jeff, I've got some ideas. Would you be interested in looking at these and if it works out, can I get..." Is there space for that or no?

Jeff:
It hasn't really happened so much in the past. I think that we, as a company are always willing to share, so if you said to me, "I had an opportunity for one of your brands." And it's with a manufacturer and we hadn't known them or hadn't already spoken to them, we're always willing to entertain possibly giving you a piece of our piece because again, we want to let everybody win. We haven't ha someone come to us and say, "Oh my god, I had this great idea for these Lamborghini T-shirts, here's want it looks like." Because the problem is I still have to go find a manufacturer that then wants to do that. It's great for you to have a cool design, but someone else might say, "Well, that's interesting, but I really don't like that. I want it to look like this." And then who's design is it? It becomes very challenging.

Chris:
I see. So it's another piece of the puzzle you guys still have to figure out at that point.

Jeff:
It makes it harder. It's easier if your friend was the guy that made heaters and he was trying to get a brand. Like right now, I'm talking to a dairy that wants to compete in a category that's well known and they're like, "Look, we need something because no one knows who we are." That's a much easier thing and at times we represent manufacturers looking for brands, so we actually jump the aisle. We go the other side of the table, which is what we're doing in the case of the dairy or we've done before with other manufacturers is to try to get them brands.

Chris:
Makes sense. Okay. I said earlier, I was going to ask this question and luckily I wrote it down because now I remember. I went to the website and I have to say, the website there's not a lot of visuals there. It's hard to figure out other deals you've done. It's kind of interesting because when I click on the case studies and there's tiny little images, I want to get excited about this. How come the website doesn't show more of what it is that you do?

Jeff:
I think it does. I'll have to take a look at it.

Chris:
Does it?

Jeff:
It's interesting that if you [inaudible 00:54:29] being objective and wanting to see it, is finding that it's not exciting enough, then I definitely have to take another look at it and maybe it's time for a refresh on that too because I think it does. I think it shows the case studies and I think it shows the clients that we have. Obviously, it's not doing enough because you're feeling differently and honestly, I love great feedback and I love objectivity and God knows we're always got to make it better because we all got to continue to grow our business.

Chris:
Right. Because when I saw on the landing page, the Forever 21 deal I was like, "I need to see more of this. What does this all look like, what's the whole line up?" I tried to dig deeper and maybe I couldn't figure out the site, but I just couldn't find more images and the images I found were smaller than the ones on the landing page or maybe somehow I screwed that up, Jeff.

Jeff:
I don't know. I need to dig into it. I know what you mean in terms of the front, we always put just some really cool stuff that are on top. In the case of the Forever 21 and the Post Office and Vespa because I'm digging into it now as I'm talking to you.

Chris:
How is your memory of your site aligning up with what I'm just saying? I'm just curious.

Jeff:
It's not lining up exactly, but I do see what you're saying. I think if you were to click into the categories and clients and maybe we got to bring it up a little bit better, you can see a lot of the different products we've done. There's so many different examples of O.P.I. nail polish and sneakers and hats for the different brands and different categories and I think in all fairness, like in the food it shows our examples of our food deals and home and home deals and I think, which is a really good input and good insight that unless you've gotten that far you wouldn't know that it's there. Under the menu, we're not being clear enough in terms of here's our case studies. It shows clients, but it's not really showing the categories and the case studies, you're right. It's there, but I know where to look and without digging, clearly you missed it which is interesting. Thank you, I owe you.

Chris:
I'm on your site, globalicons.com and I see the UPS priority mail.

Jeff:
Go to clients.

Chris:
Go to clients, I'll go to menu.

Jeff:
And then when you see next to clients on orange it says categories.

Chris:
Yes.

Jeff:
And if you click on the categories, like any of them, apparel or something.

Chris:
Like apparel, I'll go view examples. This is what I did yesterday, okay.

Jeff:
And then you can see the different products. You could go right or left, you can go food, you can see the Twinkies, you can see the Haagen-Dazs ice cream, you can see the almond milk, Crock-Pot as we talked about.

Chris:
Right, so here I'm clicking on Priority Mail and then I just get a little tiny thumbnail.

Jeff:
Yeah, you're right. It really should be bigger. When you click on the Crock-Pot image, it should go full screen or at least [crosstalk 00:57:09].

Chris:
Full screen, high resolution, 2k images. When I see this, I get so excited. I'm like, "Oh my god, this is..." I obviously don't shop at Forever 21, but I was like, "This is so cool, I want to see more of it." And then that's it.

Jeff:
It's good feedback. You're right, it makes it look less impressive when it's this small.

Chris:
You must have thousands of images.

Jeff:
We do.

Chris:
Hundreds of thousands.

Jeff:
We have a lot of stuff, been doing it for a long time.

Chris:
As a fan, now learning about this invisible marketing that you're talking about and all of a sudden, my mind is racing back into every experience I've ever had thinking about, "Oh my god, that was one of those deals? That's another one of those deals." And somebody like you or you literally brokered it, right?

Jeff:
Yes or one of our competitors, right. I talk about it in our book. One of my favorite examples is from a competitor of ours, which is the old Vicks Vaporizer. When you think about Vicks Vapo-rub, which I always thought it was vaper rub, but it's actually Vapo-rub and they had those mints that used to take that really were horrible that made your throat feel better. They take that same shape mint and turned it into a vaporizer which was so smart and now it's been in for almost 20 years, it's been selling the same vaporizer with Vicks logo on it in that shape and that's a perfect example of a brand license. The brand is about healing and about making your throat feel better and to take that same type of attributes and turn it into a vaporizer made so much sense and you go into any CVS, you go into any Walgreen and you go in the vaporizer section, 99% of the time you'll still see Vapo-rub vaporizers. And you'll also see things like thermometers and other brand extensions because it's grown bigger than that, but it's been there for 20 years.
I can only imagine what kind of royalties that's made over the 20 years. I so wish that was our deal, but it's still great.

Chris:
Oh, I thought it was your deal, I was like, dang.

Jeff:
No, I wish. It's done by a woman named Nancy Bailey who ended up selling her company many years ago. In my mind, I think it's one of the great examples of brand licensing because it's been there forever.

Chris:
Yeah. That's an example of one where it's not just to make a marketing splash or a buzz. It's actually, this is our business, we're going to get it and we're going to license it and if works, we're just going to keep making it.

Jeff:
Right. The company that has been making it has been making it forever.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Well, Jeff, I appreciate you spending time with me today. How do people find out more information? Where should they go?

Jeff:
Again, they can obviously go to globalicons.com. They can go to LinkedIn, I'm there. I post a lot, so you can always private message me. I tend to respond to almost everybody that sends me a message, because I think it's important. If someone's going to take the time, if they're not sending me spam like, "Oh, you want me to hire you." Or "You want to hire me because I want to go sell printers." That obviously, I delete, but if you're really asking me a question, I'll even help brands that we can never represent. Give them advice on where they should be going, or who they should be talking to. It's just important to help people, so I try to do that.

Chris:
Fantastic. Thank you very much.

Jeff:
My name is Jeff Lotman and you are listening to thefutur.

Greg:
Thanks so much for joining us in this episode. If you're new to thefutur and want to know more about our educational mission, visit thefutur.com. You'll find more podcast episodes, hundreds of YouTube videos and a growing collection of online courses and products covering design and business. Oh, and we spell thefutur with no E. Thefutur podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. This episode was mixed and edited by Anthony Barrow with into music by Adam Sanborne. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor and rate in the view us on the iTunes. It's a tremendous help in getting our message out there and it let's us know what you like. Thanks again for listening and we will see you next time.

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