Cart Icon

Tarzan Kay

Tarzan Kay is an expert in email marketing. In fact, it's her superpower. And one that she's built a successful business with.In this episode, Tarzan and Chris talk about her journey from jazz pianist, to lawyer, to copywriter and ultimately course creator.

Email marketing like a pro
Email marketing like a pro

Email marketing like a pro

Ep
103
Oct
21
With
Tarzan Kay
Or Listen On:

Email marketing like a pro

Tarzan Kay is an expert in email marketing. In fact, it's her superpower. And one that she's built a successful business with.

In this episode, Tarzan and Chris talk about her journey from jazz pianist, to lawyer, to copywriter and ultimately course creator.

What we love most about this conversation is that Tarzan is so transparent and generous. She talks about how her sheltered upbringing paved the way for a rebellious spirit and doesn’t shy away from talking about money. You’ll get to hear the what, the how and the why of her business and all of it’s revenue.

If you're interested in copywriting or email marketing, then you'll love this episode. And if you're not, that's okay too. The stories and lessons shared here can apply to any marketing tactic.

Hosted By
special guest
produced by
edited by
music by
Appearances

Episode Transcript

Tarzan:
Just ask yourself before you put anything out there, is this true? And even when I'm writing Facebook Ads, I want to be careful about not insinuating that you buy this program and you have an ATM machine in your office. Having a digital course business, it's work, it's complex, a lot of people try and fail. It's going to be work, it's going to take time, it will have lots of flops. So I'm always looking at my marketing and making sure that it's true.

Greg:
Hey, it's Greg, and welcome to The Futur Podcast. Today's guest is an email marketing expert. In fact, it's her superpower, and one that she's built quite the successful business around. She also has the best name that I've ever heard, Tarzan. How cool is that? In this episode, Tarzan and Chris talk about her journey from jazz pianist to lawyer to copywriter, and ultimately, to course creator. And what I love most about their conversation is that Tarzan is so transparent and generous.
She talks about how her sheltered upbringing paved the way for a rebellious spirit, and she doesn't shy away from talking about money. So you'll get to hear the what, the how, and the why of how our business works, and all the revenue that it generates. If you're interested in copywriting or email marketing, then you're going to love this episode. And if you're not, that's okay too. The stories and the lesson shared here can apply to just about any marketing tactic. So put away your inbox for the next few minutes and please enjoy our conversation with Tarzan Kay.

Chris:
You're super intriguing to me because you're unlike most of our guests, and that you have a very highly specialized skill and you work in a very specific way. I was literally listening to a few of the podcasts that you've been on before. So I don't want to rehash old territory here. But I wanted to just start off with this because I saw it on the thing that you answered. But before I ask you this question, I want you to introduce yourself, tell us who you are and what you do. So our audience gets to know who you are.

Tarzan:
Okay, great. So I'm Tarzan Kay and I am an expert in email marketing, writing really great emails is my superpower. And I feel like my job here, it's to teach people about email. But my job here as in here on Earth is to show people what it looks like to be fully yourself, to be brave and to put messaging out there that feels really sincere, open, honest, deeply authentic.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And your answers to the email questionnaire that we sent to you was really fascinating because I'm like, "This lady knows how to write." [crosstalk 00:02:57] on a boring questionnaire, you have me. So I saw that you wrote this. You've got to follow your dreams and listen to what gift you have been given to lead with. Now, your background is you studied law, you studied French and it's like you're just an interesting oddball. And now you're a copywriter, or was a copywriter, but tell me about this whole follow your dreams thing?

Tarzan:
Well, so the funny thing about telling people to follow their dreams is a lot of us, including myself, I didn't know what my dreams were. I was just figuring it out. So maybe I thought my dream was something and I went and tried it out and was like, "This isn't my dream." So I thought my dream was to be a musician. And I went to school and I studied jazz piano and I was like, "Okay." For one thing, it was a very rude awakening because I wasn't the best.
In my small town. I was like, "I dominated." And then got to university and I was like, "Oh, everyone here is really talented." And my talent is good, but I'm not the best and I also realized what it ... Well, at the time, with my perspective at the time, I was like, "I don't think I'm dedicated enough to make a career out of this." There's the best people at school. They're practicing all night long and they're just like hound dogs. They're willing to do it and I wasn't willing to do it. So then I was like, "Okay, so my career as an artist probably is not going to work out so but I like doing desk things. I like solving puzzles, I like reading, I think being a lawyer would be ..."
It's surprising how many copywriters went to law school, used to be a lawyer. Anyway, so I went to law school in French in Quebec, that goes very out of my element. I already wouldn't have fit in coming from a music background, but I extra didn't fit in because I was this anglophone in a very Francophone, very Quebecois school. Some of the schools [crosstalk 00:05:05]

Chris:
I didn't even know what that means.

Tarzan:
Okay.

Chris:
Yeah, [crosstalk 00:05:08]. No, I'm kidding.

Tarzan:
Okay, so I'm Canadian and most of the provinces are largely English-speaking. Some of them have more French speaking areas than others. But Quebec is fully French-speaking province, the first language there. And there's lots of universities there. And some of them are teaching both languages. Some of them English speakers, anglophones are more drawn to some universities. I was like, "I'm going to go to the extra Francophone." French where everyone is only speaking French, and it's mostly people that are born and bred Quebec.
I just put myself in a situation where I knew I would be very different. And it was a cool experience. I sort of like studying law, but it was really hard because I didn't have a great grasp on the language. And I was also like, "Oh, my values are really different from most of these people." So that was not ... Took me three years before I was sufficiently miserable to be like, "Okay, I'll go do something else." And then I just fled from my life, everything geographically, job, school, everything, work.
So I traveled around a bit and then it was in my travels that I figured out copywriting was a thing. There was potential to work from home and keep traveling or figure out where I'm going to live next. So I got into copywriting and I did it loosely for a couple years. But it wasn't until I had a child that I was like, :Okay, I think I want to actually build a real business here and then I got into copywriting." And that's the beginning of beginning.

Chris:
Okay.

Tarzan:
The beginning of this phase of my life.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Lots of things I'll follow up on here. I don't know how one goes from jazz pianist to, "Oh, let's do law." They don't seem like they're in the same breath. Because one is this free-spirited thing where you're in the arts, performing arts if you will even and then one is like really structured and rigid. And I have to imagine, have you seen the movie Whiplash?

Tarzan:
No, but I've seen [crosstalk 00:07:12]

Chris:
Do you know what I'm talking about though? The drummer and the teacher is insane, he's slapping him and hitting him and torturing all the students, and you're trying to be first chair, first drummer, and then you're like, "I'm a big shot in my little town." And then you go there and there are these kids who are just insane and just want it so bad. I imagine it was something like that.

Tarzan:
Yeah, I would say not as intense. There was no abuse going on, but I did see some people were a lot more dedicated.

Chris:
Sure. Sure. And it's good that you have the self-awareness even at that age to say, "You know what? Yeah, let's try and find something else." And you did.

Tarzan:
Yeah, and also, I was just like I'm tired of being broke and I wanted to make money. And when I look at it now, I'm like, "I don't think lawyers make that much money." The average lawyer, I have no idea what they make, but I don't think it's like a joy ride where you just make piles of money. But that was my education. I was like, "What's an obvious way to make money that could be interesting? Oh, yeah. Lawyer." Also, I thought that I would get respect. I thought in my family, education wasn't ... We weren't taught to go and get an education, it was looked on as something that fancy people do.
And so I was like, "I'll be fancy, I'll have this degree, I'll have letters after my name, I'll make money." Yeah, but as soon as I was in it, I was like, "This is just not, this isn't for me." And now funny enough, I have so many students in my programs that are lawyers, I've had many private clients that are lawyers are like went down that road and discovered that it was not fulfilling. So who knows? I might have ended up in the same place anyway. I don't know.

Chris:
Right. Well, I do see more of a connection, less from jazz to lawyer, but lawyer to copywriter because a lot of research, a lot of reading, a lot of writing and you have to have command over the language because otherwise, you're going to draft up a pretty bad contract or you're not going to do a great job for your client. I totally can see that. Now, when you said that when you were growing up that going to school is for fancy people, were you not fancy people? Tell me about your family.

Tarzan:
Oh my gosh. Okay. There's so many stories here.

Chris:
Okay.

Tarzan:
So my dad was a missionary for several decades before I was born. And by the time I was born, he was having a second career with a second family. And but he was still, his primary job was to make sure that we were all saved and no one was going to hell. And that was harsh. It was harsh because there were a lot of rules and we were ... The clothes we wore, the music we listened to, heavily scrutinized. On Friday nights, my parents would go on a date night and we could watch a movie without worrying that my dad would walk in and find some issue with it and the worst thing you could be was worldly.
So wanting too many things or being of the world, we didn't watch television, we didn't have any channels we could watch. That was the greatest sin was to be worldly which to me, we're here to have a human experience, the world is full of humans having experiences, how can you not be worldly? Anyway, so my brothers and my sister, we have a heavy, rebellious streak. So everyone went out into the world to rebel in the biggest ways they can. Probably part of that for me was actually going to university, that was not the trajectory we were supposed to go on.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. So this usually happens, it's like through a lot of repression. It's like bottling up a lot of energy and angst and especially in this modern time, it's hard to keep your children away from all that. And it's actually something I think you make them want to see the world even more when you do that. So then you explode and you did your thing. Okay, now I want to talk really about why I think or why I want to have you on the show and what value you can bring to the audience because you do something like I said before, that very few of our audience understands and understands well. That you help to launch courses, you've got your own course I believe, is that correct?

Tarzan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
Yeah? Okay. And then I've heard you say things or read on your site that send more emails. If you want business, send more emails, more people read them, and you should do this. Now, in your experience, what is the apprehension that people have about sending emails? Why don't we do it more often?

Tarzan:
Oh my gosh, it runs so deep. I think for a lot of people, there's a lot of who am I to take up this space in someone else's inbox? Who am I to show up as the leader and talk about what I know and tell ... Show up as someone who knows more than you? So that's an enormous block. And we have to work through this on all levels. Part of it is just like, "Well, you have to schedule, you have to schedule it, and you have to do it because in the beginning, you might not want to."
So I felt all those things too in the early days of my business. I did something, there were some remarkable things that happened to me that I feel like helped me make that figure that out. And one of the things was in my first year in business, I was in this email copywriting competition and I was like, "Oh, I think I could win this competition." And it was a three-day thing. It wasn't just about talent, it was also about ability to see how votes are ... To see how votes are counted and to see ... Getting votes in the early on in the day is really important because then you're at the top of the list and more people see you.
I didn't win the competition necessarily because my emails were the best, they were good. But I also figured I was like, "Hey, I know how to win this. And I won this." That was validation for me. But also, I was like, "Okay, I can use this. This shows that I have some authority. So I'm going to start showing up in this way and just leaning into what people seem to be recognizing as a gift that I have." And then but I still had a very small email list which is another big objection is like, "What's the point? There's only a few people. Is anyone reading this? Is anyone listening?"
Initially, I had 35 people on my email list. And I would ask people like, "Hey, can I put you on my email list?" I had a few past clients, I would just ask them, can you be on my email list? They're like family members on my email list. Some of them I'm like, "You're still on my email list? Oh, my gosh." I send so many emails about things you don't care about. Anyway. So the big thing is to get over in the early days. Who am I to do this? Coming into understanding your value and having a deep sense of self-worth, that is very deep work.
I can say, "Look, it's important that you schedule it. It's important to be consistent." When it comes to email, consistency is one of the most important things like to be telling people, to be showing people, "I'm going to show up every Friday in your inbox, and you're still doing it six months later. There's a lot of trust built there." So that's a big one. So I can say like, "Okay, you should block it in your calendar every Friday at 2:00 p.m. that you write your weekly email, you should set a timer for 30 minutes. And then at the end, you should just send it, even if it's okay."
When you have a small list, that's great, you can practice. I still, some of my emails are average. If I send five emails, one of them is brilliant, two of them are pretty good and two others are like just very average, one of them might be below average. So I don't knock it out of the park every time, but I'm very consistent. So you can implement these practical strategies in your business, but I also feel like they don't work unless you're also doing your own personal healing, working through your trauma because all of that stuff is inflamed by running a business.
When you're showing up publicly, especially as my business has grown, the level of scrutiny is so much higher. There's expectations on me are so much higher. I have to be deeply rooted in my self-worth and feeling like I know my mission, I know my message I'm showing up every day for it. Because of course, there's gonna be people who don't like it, or people who disagree with me. And in the early days, that might have just looked like people that are like, "Well, who are you? I know more than you." I think it comes from the same place. So we have to be always doing that work.

Chris:
Okay, there's so many things for me to follow up on. I don't want to interrupt you. But as you tell, as you gave me one answer of there's four more questions that pop up [crosstalk 00:16:37]. It's like those weeds growing in the garden. I'm like, "Wait, there's more here." Okay, you look like you're still relatively young compared to me. You're still very young person. So you enter into this competition for copywriting. I didn't even know such things exist. How old are you at this point in the story?

Tarzan:
So I'm 35 for reference today.

Chris:
Okay. All right.

Tarzan:
And this would have been four years ago. Actually, exactly four years ago.

Chris:
Not that long ago then?

Tarzan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, this is very recent. Yeah.

Chris:
What was remarkable to me is A, such things exist, and B, you feel like, "I'm going to enter this, and I think I can win it." And C, probably the most important thing to pull from this is there's the art of writing emails. And then there is you understanding the criteria in which people would judge this which is the big insight I think, and you made a point to talk about that. Right? So what did you see and how did you figure that out?

Tarzan:
Okay. So it was a three-day competition. So I had the benefit of seeing each day how things were judged. So it was like for one thing, it was a votes-based thing. It was hosted by the software that I don't even think is around anymore. I think it was called Upworthy, but maybe I'm just thinking of something that exists and is popular. So anyway, it was hosted by this software company and these two other people. And the two people I was like, I know those people, they're influencers in this small industry that I'm in.
So I would like to get in front of them and the software company, they just want people to look at their software. So for one thing, you couldn't just post it on Facebook and be like, "Everybody come and vote for me." You had to like prime them because they had to start an account. If I saw this today, I'd be like, "I don't think I can participate in this." Yeah, ask people to sign up for something. But I was early in my business and I was really gung ho. So the first day, I just watched how the boating went, and I put my entry in and I did okay, and maybe the first day I got in fourth place or something.

Chris:
Okay.

Tarzan:
And but the second day was when I started to feel like maybe I could win. And I realized the voting was going be judged at the end of the day, that the end of the day, they would count the votes at like five o'clock or something. Therefore, the earlier I wrote my email, the more time I would have to hustle votes. And also if I got votes really early on as they said, then I would be at the top and when there's 100 entries, if your entry is number 150, it doesn't matter if you wrote the greatest email, you just are not going to win which is such a good lesson in business.
Sometimes you can be the best at this one thing, but if you don't understand some of the other rules that play, it's just not going to work. So in fact, detour into my program email stars, a lot of people come to me and they're like Tarzan writes amazing emails. I want to write amazing emails. Is that what you teach in your program? And really, I teach a little bit about that, but actually, there's so many parts of the poll, it's a whole system. It's not just sending emails.
You have to understand the strategy like how to tag people and how to put them in groups and how to increase your deliverability. And it's this whole web of information that you have to know. So the competition, it was really, it wasn't like I was solving a Rubik's Cube which I also later learned how to solve. But it was pretty simple. And I figured out the trick. Oh, this is a good one. So the second day I won. And then on the morning of the third day, I went into ... There was also a private Facebook group where all the contestants were hanging out. And this sounds like a big deal.
There's competitions all the time going on that I don't even notice. I thought it was a big deal because I was making it a big deal. And I had decided it was going to be a big deal if I won. But there were maybe 150 people in this whole competition. So it was like, I knew it was very doable. On the third day, I went into the group, and I was like, "Here's what it takes to win, do all these things." Get your vote, get your email written early. Get at least 10 votes before 10:00 a.m. so you're at the top, blah-blah-blah. And I think I also probably just generated a lot of goodwill. So some of the people participating in the contest probably didn't ... They weren't even planning to win, they were just on, just going along for the ride. And they're like, there's Tarzan. She's nice, I'm going to vote for her.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I want to tie this to the world that designed for my larger audience here. In case they're like, "Okay, copywriting is not my thing, marketing ..." Here's the thing that you guys can all understand. And let's make this broadly universal and creative people is that creative people mistakenly believe that it's just the arts and crafts that's going to win the day for them. And so they're often confused and frustrated when clients ruin their design by making all kinds of changes is because they miss the forest through the trees, they forgot that there's a business objective.
And you looked at this as a, I guess, a 31-year-old at that time and said, "How's the game being played? What matters?" And posting early or sending emails out early and understanding how this works. And from the sounds of it, if you're in that stack of top five, you're going to be a little bit more visible. Maybe that helps you a little bit and this has a lot to do with search. And if we get 100 emails in our inbox, what are the four that you're going to reply to right away? Which ones are going to stop because my finger is literally on the delete button, as I'm going through my inbox, right?
So it's going to take a lot. It's going to take a lot for me to stop. And I want to give everybody a little taste of who you are. So joining me today is Tarzan. And here's how she described herself. She's a master of email marketing and former copywriter for hire who specializes in fun to read, more addictive than Game of Thrones email copy. She also helps freelancers attract better clients who will reach deeper into their pockets to pay for top quality services. Also, using the power of email, duh.
So she knows how to write. Even your name is intriguing. I wasn't sure who you were until I listened to your voice on the podcast. Tarzan must be a man, right? Like Tarzan, right?

Tarzan:
Of course.

Chris:
It's such an unusual name. Everything about you is crafted almost. And is this your birth name or did you change your name?

Tarzan:
So I did change my name when I was ... I wish I knew. I think I changed my name seven years ago. So I guess I was in my late 20s and my old name was Amy Knapp. And my mom had changed her name prior to me changing my name. And I was like, "Oh, okay, cool." I didn't know this was something. I didn't know this option was available to me. And for at least a year, I was like, "I think I'm ready for a new name. I really don't feel like my name is my name anymore."
And I wasn't actively looking for it. I was just like, "Inspiration will strike." And when inspiration struck. "Okay, Tarzan." I was like, "This is weird. But I am pretty sure this is my name." And I told my family I'm changing my name. And my husband, who is not my husband at the time. He didn't really like it and I even briefly tried a different name and was like, "Oh, no, it's definitely Tarzan."

Chris:
[crosstalk 00:24:15] feel like you. Okay. Yeah.

Tarzan:
Yeah. And for a long time, I used to get more questions about it. Now, I feel like I fully embodied Tarzan. So I don't get as many. I don't have to answer it all day long every time I go to the coffee shop, but people would ask, "What's this all about?" In the beginning, I didn't have an explanation. I was like, "It's just a name that came to me. I don't know. But this is my name now." And it took a couple years before I realized the name Tarzan when I changed my name, I had to show up in a completely different way in the world.
Amy could have could go under the radar, she was cool. She could like hang out in a corner and no one would notice her and that was fine. But you can't be Tarzan and not be like loud and powerful. And I think that is who I have been all along. I just maybe was afraid of it. So it did really force me to step into a new and really powerful identity. Also, from a marketing perspective, I did know. So at the time, there was this woman Amy Knapp who sold these Christian family planners, and at the time, anything associated with Christianity was a huge red flag for me just because I had been so damaged by it as a kid.
So I was like, "I don't want to be associated with this. I also don't want to compete with this person." And I was writing a book and I was like, "I need this. I'm on a timeline. I need a new name before I publish this book." And then I remember my publisher being like, "Could it be Tarzana?"

Chris:
Right, right, right.

Tarzan:
No, it's Tarzan. Because he was worried about search. And interestingly, I dominate Google, and I am not a content creator. I don't have a podcast or a blog or anything like that. I do Instagram and I write emails, but in order to even get my emails, you have to bound me somewhere and join my list. So I'm not a content creator, but I still am like, "You Google me, everything is me."

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). So you do dominate because ...

Tarzan:
Yeah.

Chris:
Presumably, Tarzan is a fictional character, and they're not making too many Tarzan things. So as long as you do something, you're going to pop. And it's a name that you have to be bold with. And you have to be comfortable in your own skin. So I have to ask you this question. When and where did you find the self-confidence to be this person? Is it something that you always had or At what point in your life does it change from being Amy Knapp to being Tarzan because something had happened to you?

Tarzan:
No, I definitely had to grow into it. And part of it actually changing the name, I went down to City Hall. And it's surprisingly, it only cost $135. You get a new birth certificate, you get a new license, everything. So I made it official. And then I definitely had to grow into it. And being in business, and also at the same time starting a family, those things were just such intense personal growth. I think, just having been able to do that, I built a million dollar business, I have the most incredible two children, I support the family, my husband is a stay at home dad.
I feel like most importantly too, I freaking love my life. I am outrageously happy. Even in 2020, there have been so many deeply challenging, things come up and I'm okay. My life has dramatically changed in the last five years. And a lot of that has been growing into my name.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You mentioned this before, and you tiptoed into it, but I want to ask you, why are you not good at social media? Because you're like, "I'm weak." Maybe you said you suck. I don't know where I saw this one [inaudible 00:28:29], but why aren't you good on social media?

Tarzan:
Yeah. Okay, I used to actually say this a lot. And I will say, so for my first couple years in business, I was like, "Facebook doesn't feel exciting to me." When I open Instagram, I'm just like, "I don't understand this platform." And I would occasionally post a picture of my lunch or my kids or something cheesy and I'd be like, "Oh, I didn't use it. I wasn't using Instagram as a user." I just didn't understand how the platform worked. And to be honest, I really ... Now, I started using Instagram last September, it's made a dramatic difference in my business.
I've hired a lot of support to help me learn the platform. And also I've spent a lot of time figuring out what's fun. And I think now I feel like I'm getting in the swing of it. I feel like I'm good at it, but I it didn't come naturally to me. It definitely didn't come naturally. I needed to get help and take programs and like have a lot of hand holding.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So what have you learned [crosstalk 00:29:33]

Tarzan:
I also ...

Chris:
Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Tarzan:
I'll tell you what I've learned.

Chris:
Okay.

Tarzan:
And I'm really privileged to be able to do this, but I figured out in my business what makes money, what brings in clients, what makes money, what can I do myself, that's always been an email. That is consistent for me. No matter what I spend on Facebook Ads to grow my email list or time I spend speaking on podcast, speaking on stages, people join my email list, it works. Instagram or social media, I was like, "I don't really get it." So for one thing, I had to prove to myself that it would make a difference in my course promotions.
And there's another thing, I had to figure out where the ROI was. Oh, and then because I have, I was starting with a profitable business, I could afford to get someone to help me. And one of the things that makes a dramatic difference to me is consistency with posts, I know is really important. However, I have always hated using Instagram's platform to post on the grid. And also to do it consistently every day. I had to figure out my own system. So in my business, we use Asana, a project management software. And in Asana, I have a task every Monday, I write five Instagram posts and then I don't choose the pictures, I don't make graphics, I hand that off to someone else who takes care of all that.
So that's what my system looks like. Obviously, not everyone could do it that way. But systematizing it, the same thing is with email. Also, in order to get that email out every single week and be consistent, I had to put it in my calendar, I had to make sure I wasn't spending an enormous, unsustainable amount of time on it. I had to learn that it's easier to write it in a Google Doc and then upload it. Figuring out a system for getting email out consistently, a system for doing social media, that helped enormously. And also, once I started using the Instagram platform, and this has been so key to my success on Instagram is figuring out what's fun, what's fun for me, I can do consistently.
So Instagram stories, I like doing them, they're fun. My Content Developer said to me, "Can you start doing reels? Here, watch this video, I'd like you to start doing reels." And I was like, "Oh, okay, I guess I'll do it." And finally, I got around to watching a video that took five minutes. And then I was like, "Okay, I have 20 minutes before my next meeting, I'm going to make a reel." And I just bought some new clothes and I had a vision for what I would do with this reel. And I made the reel in 20 minutes and it was fun.
And I was like, "Oh, great. This is a strategy I can get behind. Because it feels creative, it gets me out of my chair. I need to really understand where is the ROI going to come from? And also, how can I fit this into all the things I'm already doing?" I work four days a week, I'm about to go down to three days. So I want to only take on things that I know that I can actually commit to.

Greg:
Time for a quick break. But we'll be right back with more from Tarzan Kay. Hey, Greg Gunn from The Futur here. That's right. It's me again. Now, The Futur's mission is to teach one billion creatives how to make money doing what they love without feeling gross about it. Now, maybe you're in school, but you feel like you're not getting what you need or maybe you're like me and sold all of your internal organs to pay for private art school tuition.
But it's been a while and you want to sharpen up some of those skills. Well, fortunately for you, we have a bunch of courses and products designed specifically to help you become a smarter and more versatile creative. Design courses like typography, logo design and color for creatives, go deep into the design fundamentals that you need to know and command in order to be successful. Check out all of our courses and products about learning design by visiting thefutur.com/design. Welcome back to our conversation with Tarzan Kay.

Chris:
So it sounds to me, a couple of key takeaways here is that you started to attack Instagram like the way you do email marketing. You figure out the system, you play it to your strengths, and you delegate everything else that you don't want to do. And then it starts to work for you and the other secret to your success there is to do things that you like, that you're passionate about, that you can enjoy so it doesn't become work.
Work should be play and you find a way to make it playful for you. So you can do it and you can do it for the long run because it was it probably won't play out very well. And you can't be consistent if you hate the whole process and it shows in what you do, right?

Tarzan:
Yeah, totally. I do sometimes feel weird talking about this because I understand that probably most of your listeners don't have five employees. I also feel compelled to say in the earlier days of my business, I did do lots of tasks that I did not enjoy doing, but it also meant because I did them, I could outsource them to someone else when I was ready and I knew that they worked and I would get a higher return than it costs to pay someone else to do it.

Chris:
Right. And this is a big step for entrepreneurs. So understanding that your time is better spent doing something else, and letting go of some of these tasks is the big test for entrepreneurs because otherwise, you will be a sole proprietor for the rest of your life. It will just be always you. Nothing wrong with that. But that's pretty much the step, the big jump that you have to take conceptually, mentally, that's that's the move you have to make. Okay.
This is a perfect segue because the thing I have to talk to you about now is the business part of what you do you. So first of all, how much money do you make a year and then how do you make that money? Because I think you do a couple different things. And I would love to talk about that and you could answer whatever you feel comfortable answering.

Tarzan:
Oh yeah, totally. Okay, actually, I literally just came from our annual meeting. So I'm very fresh on all my numbers.

Chris:
Great, great, great.

Tarzan:
So we're just coming up on the end of our fiscal year, and we predict that we'll hit 1.2 million. Right now, we're very close to that number. So 1.2 million-

Chris:
First of all, congrats.

Tarzan:
Thank you so much. So this is actually our first time hitting seven figures in a single year. So it's really exciting and it's really exciting that it happened in 2020. When I basically was like, "I'm letting go of all my goals that I don't even know if are important to me anymore." So just a little interesting side note. So most of that revenue ... Actually, let's say 95% of that revenue comes from selling courses.
So I have one what I would call a signature program where I teach email marketing, how to write emails, all the stuff around email marketing, mostly for course creators, although service providers do take it as well because it's the same work like how to sell with email, how to build relationships, how to turn your subscribers into customers. So that's our main product. And that product, let me just do some quick math in my head.

Chris:
Okay. [crosstalk 00:37:12]

Tarzan:
It is about a third of gross revenue.

Chris:
Okay, 30%.

Tarzan:
So then I also have affiliate promotions. So which means I sell other people's courses. And that's probably 40%, and I'm learning a lesson here which is historically, I've always put more time, effort, money into promoting other people's courses. And this year, I was like, "There's something going on here." Again, being in business, so many lessons I have to learn all the time. And I think that also is a self-worth thing, self-belief, I can believe in the dream for other people's stuff, but not for my own. So I learned that lesson, and it was ... Anyway, I'm still learning it.
So hopefully next year, our revenue will not be 40% ... We're looking at making that less and that my own programs more. So then the other 30%? Gosh, where does the other 30% come from? I do the occasional VIP day with clients. I have some low cost workshops. I have a workshop that teaches people how to sell services for a day rate, I have this little workshop called get paid in USD for Canadians who charge in US dollars. Little things that they don't make a lot of money, I love those products and I want everyone to buy them. So I keep them on the market. So yeah, there's the, I don't know, other. There's big category my course and [crpsstalk 00:38:53] and then everything else.

Chris:
Okay. Your Signature Course email marketing accounts for about third of your revenue, how much does that sell for?

Tarzan:
So that sells for $1,500 US and we do a six month payment plan, or we used to do three months. This year we did six months just because we felt like maybe that would help people out this year. So it's like 10% more if you buy it on a payment plan. And the affiliate programs I sell are between 2,000 and 3,000. And industry standard with affiliate promotions is 50% commission. So that's usually what I get for affiliate promotions and I will say for just in case you have anyone in your audience who wants to get revenue from courses, but doesn't want to make their own, I still think it's a great way to make money.
It did help me transition from being a service provider and figuring out the world of launches is and online course promotions and just promoting someone else's thing rather than creating and selling my own. I found it just helped me with the learning curve a little bit. And also, it helped me serve clients and then I could just do a promotion. I didn't have to deliver the offer after so I could go back to my client work. It was a great, great learning, but I might have just latched on to it a little bit too hard.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I wasn't clear when you talked about your price. I was trying to think about your website, but I don't want to look at that. How much is the course creation? I'm sorry, the email marketing program that you sell?

Tarzan:
1,500.

Chris:
50 and 100?

Tarzan:
1,500. Yeah, 1,500.

Chris:
1,500. Okay, there we go. 1,500.

Tarzan:
Yeah, 1,500. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris:
And I want to circle back to this thing where you said it is easier to sell other people's stuff than it is our own.

Tarzan:
Yeah.

Chris:
And it's really weird because when I sell my own stuff, I feel like I'm being self-promotional whereas if I really believe in somebody else's product, I can speak about it very objectively, even though I'm collecting an affiliate. What is that? Affiliate fee for promoting it.

Tarzan:
Yeah.

Chris:
It's really weird and I don't think you and I are alone in that. And we have to figure out what the heck? Why am I so ready to yell at the top of a building? "Hey, buy this, this is great." And not feel embarrassed by it. As soon as you do it for yourself, it just feels a little slimy or weird for some reason.

Tarzan:
I agree. And I've been working through that myself. I also have found since ... So my program Email Stars has been around for two years now. And now that I have way more client testimonials, the program gets better every year, we add more resources, we add more cool stuff. So I feel more and more confident about it. And the more I can get behind my own product, it just sells better and better. I can write way stronger emails. When I'm speaking on an Instagram Live or some sort of channel, even on a webinar, I'm rooted in my own belief that it's an amazing program that really helps people. Whereas the first time I was promoting it, I was like, "I'm creating this thing. I hope it works. Come join me for the beta round."

Chris:
Right. Right. Okay. I want to talk about something else here related to this which is I think people who are very successful at launching courses follow a very specific formula. And it's almost like it's A to Z and it's exactly what you need to do to be successful to have a seven figure launch. And part of it is to enroll a lot of affiliate marketers who then offer bonuses and time release things, time sensitive things. And I look at this, and this is the weirdo in me. And I think, "Does it always have to be like that?" Maybe it's just the rebel inside of me is like, "There must be a non-formula." But it seems like everybody that's very successful follows the formula. So first, what is the formula? And then let's have a conversation about that.

Tarzan:
Okay. Oh, thank you so much because I want to understand this too. So I've noticed for myself and I'm really trying to correct this is the last four and a half years, I've been in this bubble of like course creators who promote each other, use the same systems like they're all like descendants of this guy Jeff Walker who made this program Product Launch Formula. He's like the guy that all the people I know learn from. So everyone's teaching the same thing.
And strategy is like instead of having a course that's for sale all year long, you only sell it once or twice a year, you open the ... We call it the cart, you open the cart, your enrollment period is seven to nine days. And throughout that, you offer incentives for people to sign up. I always teach every single day, there should be a reason for people to sign up. You just added a new bonus or something is going away that you were giving away yesterday or like now ... There's lots of things you can do.
I don't recommend discount codes, but now, there's a new payment plan or whatever. So everyone follows that formula and it definitely works. However, I too am like I really want to know what else there is because I know from personal experience to actually execute on a launch like that. If you did it by yourself, I've tried to do it by myself and just felt so miserable and so burnt out and it didn't even do what I wanted it to do and no wonder because my energy was totally scattered. So I do think like there's there's something to simplifying, and there are definitely lots of ways to simplify like pre-selling your program, just doing a workshop, not having all the bonuses.
I've done so many versions of that strategy, but it does seem to work. The best one, I do everything. However, let me tell you this, you're going to like this Chris. So I am listening to this podcast, and I hear this woman. And it was a podcast about investing. And she's talking about investing and she's totally speaking my language. She's talking about how trading on the stock market has been typically reserved for the white male. And upholding the patriarchy. We're telling people, "You can't invest. It's very volatile. It's not safe. You have to know a lot." I'm like, "Tell me more. Tell me more."
So I'm so into her vibe and then she talks about her program. And I'm like, "Oh, okay, cool. I definitely want this program." And so I go to her, I don't know, I go visit her online, her pages. And her pages are like, for me, I've executed on so many of these launches. I know what it looks like when someone's doing it perfectly. She's doing it very imperfectly. She's just being herself. I found this webinar that was outdated. The bonuses she's talking about are long expired, the landing pages, I'm like, "Oh my God, you could optimize it like this. You could do this. Where are the bonuses?"
Anyway. I'm looking at this webinar replay that's outdated, and it's actually just a YouTube video. And I messaged her on Instagram, she was like, "Yeah, those bonuses aren't available anymore." I'm looking at her, I'm like, "I know I'm a great candidate. If you just did these things, I would buy." But then I keep going back to it and there's two versions. There's like the $2,000 version and the $5,000 version. Anyway, the end of the story is I bought the expensive version. There was no sales funnel really, it wasn't executed anywhere near what I would have done if it were my launch. But on the other hand, she spoke very clearly to me.
She was so clear on that podcast, this woman is talking to me. This is program for me. She was so clear on that I've since listened to her on other podcasts and noticed she says the same thing. She's clear on her core stories, and she keeps going back to them. I personally would get bored doing that. But maybe she, I don't even ... Anyway, she's very clear on those points. She did a perfect balance of teaching and selling. Anyway, I keep thinking, and I've shared on Instagram like, "Hey, I'm learning from Terry Joma trade and travel, this is such a great program."
And I had so many people message me that were like, "Oh my gosh, this looks so great. I just signed up." And I was like, "You just spent $2,000. And you only saw this short form sales page?" And then Terry reached out and was like, "Hey, why don't you have this affiliate code?" I was like, "Yeah, great. Okay, let me promote some more." Anyway, the point is she just had a really enticing offer. And she really spoke to it well, and she's doing just fine without all these bells and whistles.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tarzan:
So I know it can be done and I'm also really interested in looking outside my bubble to see what's possible because it's really easy to think that you actually have to do everything in order to be successful and I know from my own experience that you don't.

Chris:
Okay. If you don't mind, I'd like to stay in this bubble if you will because I want to geek out and I want to touch on some potentially controversial, hot subjects here and maybe [crosstalk 00:48:44]. Okay. I did notice too that there does seem to be this bubble and mostly women, course creator authors who promote other courses, it seems so incestuous. And I talked to one of my friends Joanna [Gava 00:48:58], who's in this too. She's like, "Chris, this is how you launch a seven figure business." And I was just like, "Oh." Here's the problem. Are you familiar with this term fake guru or contrepreneur?

Tarzan:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. Yes.

Chris:
Okay. Because there seems to be a bit of this going around and it's wildly hot that somebody will create a course like Jeff. And then there's people repackaging it over and over again, and it starts to feel like there's some kind of Ponzi scheme going on here where people will produce a course on how to do webinars, teaching other people how to do webinars, but actually, there's no content. It's just teaching more people how to do webinars and selling them, and you're okay as long as you're not at the bottom where it stops. And course creation is such a big business these days and there's the reaction of, "Man, is it really worth it? Are you a good enough teacher? Is this something that somebody can learn from a book for $30 and why are they paying $3,000 for a course like this?"
So there's a lot of that and my gut feeling is that I don't want to sound like those people because some of them don't seem legitimate to me at all while others are legitimate. So I'm going to go in a very different direction. So we deliberately stay away from all that, but I feel like I'm not selling as much as I could if I follow just this formula do a webinar, talking about expiring bonuses, act now, all those things that happen with scarcity and just pushing that kind of you got to buy this today even if you're not ready, you're going to buy it today. So I'm just curious to hear your take on all of this and to continue down this rabbit hole if you will.

Tarzan:
I'm so glad because this is one of my favorite subjects.

Chris:
Let's do it.

Tarzan:
Yeah, it's also a huge part of my mission and my business is like to work because people that are really attracted to my work, even though I follow that formula are like something feels icky about the state of marketing, something feels off, and I can't mark it myself because I don't want to be that person. So I think that's really real and it's definitely a call to check in with what are we doing here? Are you doing this marketing because you feel ... Does it feel in alignment with your mission or are you just doing it because someone told you this is what it takes to be successful?
And the problem that you mentioned of people selling what they learn from someone else is very real. I noticed this in my first year in business, I took B-School and I can't tell you how many coaches were in. I got a lot of success from that program. So I don't mean to disparage B-School. I took it, I promoted it for years, it's a great program. However, I did see so many students that were like, "Okay, I'm a business coach. I'll teach you how to do all these things that you just learned how to do and [crosstalk 00:51:45]."

Chris:
Oh my God.

Tarzan:
And yeah, I was like, "Okay, so you're a business coach. But I know you just started your business at the exact same time I do." And also, it is something that white people do. White people I think are more prone to be just ... This is actually white supremacy. It's like, "I am entitled to call myself an expert. I'm the coach, everybody buy from me." To me, like when I see people repackaging stuff they just learned from someone else, in my observation, casuals that they do tend to be white people.
It is a bit of a colonizer thing to do is I see, I learn this thing, now this land/information belongs to me. I've caught myself doing it before. And even in my own program. I was going through it recently, and I had some students bring these emails to me, and I was like, my heart seized, it was like, "Oh, my God, these emails don't belong to me." And right away, I messaged my friend Rai who wrote them, and I was like, "Bro, I stole something from you. I'm going to make it right. But I want you to know, I took these two emails." And I worked it out, but I also noticed I have to watch out for my programming because I have been basically ... I've been schooled into white supremacy without even noticing it, and it creeps in all the time.
So that's part of this, and I want to acknowledge it. So that's the dark side of it. I am someone though who sells a program about email marketing, and I sell it through email. So I-

Chris:
Yes.

Tarzan:
And I also feel really good about what I do. And my students are one of them sells, she teaches people how to do needlepoint. I have another client, student who teaches quilting, one of my students teaches how to make vision boards part of being a marketer is like we see ... It's like buying a red car and then all of a sudden, all you see is red cars. When you're a marketer, we're almost like our sensitivities are heightened, we're like, "Oh, everybody's doing the same thing." But actually, in other industries, I can see like, "Oh gosh, you if you just like use these same strategies, you will be so successful, you'll sell so much more."
So oh, gosh, I hope that unravels something of it. But I am always watching out for it and I noticed, another part of this ... So there's this wonderful article about Bro-Marketing. And she talks about where these traditions came from, how we build in urgency and scarcity and how we create this image of success and it's so glossy, and it makes it look like it's all about just making money. Even if you even if I Tarzan, distance myself from these dudes in Lamborghinis, the way Amanda worded it is we're all drinking from the same polluted pond. And I thought that was so brilliant because I do sometimes default to drinking from the pond. And I have to always step back and be like, "Does this feel in integrity with what I'm trying to do?"
And I definitely make mistakes. I will say there are honest ways to build in urgency and scarcity. But what people often do, I'll catch my students writing emails that are like, "Only 12 spots left." And I'm like, "Okay." So I know that you haven't even started this launch yet, is this true? And that's the most basic filter and it's surprising how many people don't run their marketing through that filter. But just ask yourself, before you put anything out there, is this true? And even when I'm writing Facebook ads, I want to be careful about not insinuating that you buy this program, and you have an ATM machine in your office.
Having a digital course business, it's work, it's complex, a lot of people try and fail. It's going to be work, it's going to take time, you'll have lots of flops. So I'm always looking at my marketing and making sure that it's true.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay, okay. So here's the question then really because there's like this sense of like when I see these things, they feel fake. And I know all the tricks. It's designed to manipulate me to act, right? So the idea of bonuses that expire, the urgency, only a limited time, and there's only so many of these things. The marketer already knows these things in advance that they're going to include these free downloads. And what they do is they set up the sales page to not include it, and then to add them back in. And I know it's a trigger because people want to feel like they're getting a tremendous deal and that things are going away.
So am I so naive in thinking that, "You know what? I just want to be honest with you. This class, it's up forever. This is the price, the price may go up, the price may go down, I don't know. And I think you'll learn a lot from it. I don't run webinars, I don't run email tripwires, I don't run anything." But I think, darn it. I'm only hurting my business because we're not selling like crazy. When I hear these seven figure launches that only sell once a year. I go to my team like, "What are we doing wrong guys?" Right?

Tarzan:
So yeah, opening once a year, it does make a difference. And there's a reason why these evergreen style launches are like ... There's so much technology going into building in that urgency. A marketer may know how to get themselves back to the top of the funnel so they can get all the bonuses. But a new marketer doesn't. I do think there is something to be said for people. We genuinely need incentives to buy things. Even this trade and travel program that I just mentioned buying, I was putting off the decision forever ... Well, not forever, but I was thinking about it a lot and it was like five days later, and I still hadn't made a decision. And then she had sent an email that said the price was going up on a certain date.
And I was like, "I'll just buy this thing." I need you. I need you to create a little bit of urgency because if I can have a reason to postpone and to do something later, I will. So in some cases, I feel like and I want to be careful before I say this because oftentimes in marketing, there's like a shiny explanation for why it's okay to do something that's shady. That happens a lot. So I'm always checking in with myself, "Is this true? Do I actually believe this?" But I do think in some ways, if you're not using high pressure, you are doing someone a service by coaching them into a decision because we all struggle with indecision when you're making a larger purchase that represents a significant sum of money and of course, you're second guessing yourself, "Is this okay? Are these people going to be there for me and follow through on their promises?"
To get them to actually make a decision and then hopefully also offer a generous refund period should they change their minds, I don't know. I can see both sides myself and I always check in with myself though, do I feel good about this? Because if I don't feel good about it, I will either be able to do it for a short time and then I'll never do it again or else, it just won't work.

Chris:
Yeah, okay. There's a couple of truths that you're touching upon here. And you're helping me to understand this differently. And we want to be very clear that you can slip into the slippery slope where it's like post justification, everything is rational like, "Yeah, you killed a couple of people." But they deserve to die. No.

Tarzan:
Yes.

Chris:
No. It's for the greater good. No, it's still you killed a couple of people. So what you've touched on here is that it's somewhat in human nature to postpone and only deal with the most urgent things. So if something is not urgent, we let it sit on that back burner and then as soon as you said that, I relate to that in a number of different ways. If I'm shopping online in terms of a shirt I want to buy, I don't need it today. I don't really need a shirt, a new shirt, or a new pair of shoes anyways, but I'm just sitting on it. And there's no real compelling reason for me to act.
I also think in relationships, it's like if you're the guy, or the girl who's always waiting for the other person to notice you, they're going to be dating everybody else, but you because you're always hanging around you. You slipped into their friendzone and it's like there's no urgency, right? Did you know this? As soon as I say, "I'm going to move away." Or, "I'm giving up on this relationship." Which is one of those email tactics, right?

Tarzan:
Yes.

Chris:
Is this it? Are you saying this is not worth it? And you're, "No, hold on. Don't leave me. I want you now."

Tarzan:
That's right.

Chris:
Right?

Tarzan:
Right.

Chris:
I think the only reason why we marry people in the first place is because it's not because we want to keep them, we just want to prevent other people from having them, it's that weird psychology. So in a way, these kind of ideas of pressure and scarcity and urgency just to help people to like, "You know what? Today's the day that you change your life." Now, if you make something that you truly believe is going to help another human being that has been tested and that you stand behind your product. And it's not some regurgitated thing that you just learned yesterday. And the other thing, the other caveat is that you've actually been successful doing this thing first, you're an email marketer, you won the competition, I could tell you know how to write, you understand the game.
It's not like you just borrowed somebody else's material and repackaged it in the Tarzan brand persona. So I think that is critical and that's a pretty good differentiation. And there's a lot of these scammers out there who are just selling courses based on nothing. They've never done it. I'm sorry if this offensive to anybody, but when there are 18 year old kids telling me how to be a business coach, I'm like, "Please, what's the business you've started in? Let's let's just look at that for a minute." That's all.

Tarzan:
Oh my gosh, totally.

Chris:
Yeah?

Tarzan:
Yeah.

Chris:
So we're vibing on that, right?

Tarzan:
We're totally vibing on that. My friends who have known me all my life and they're like, "How are you this millionaire buying Land Rovers?" And they're like, "Are you running a pyramid scheme?"

Chris:
"How do I get in?"

Tarzan:
Yeah, "How do I get in?" I have lots of emails about pyramid scheme jokes. But it's a joke and it's not a joke because there is especially this is a very unpopular opinion, but I'm in the high ticket coaching world, there are so many people pay me a lot of money so I can teach you how to pay how to like charge a lot of money. And some people seem to do it with integrity. I've always just felt so weird about it and I charge a lot. But I'm not charging a lot to teach other people how to charge a lot.
And other caveat, a lot of people do not understand how much they need to make to run a business and they're drastically undercharging. So we do need all these people to tell you how to charge a decent sum of money, but buy my high ticket offer so you can have your own high ticket offer. IT just really rubs me the wrong way which on a similar note is there's a lot of pay me money so I can fix your mindset. I was like, I don't know. I think it's weird.
We are all just walking around traumatized. So if you just talk to traumatized people and you're like, "Just fix your mindset, I can fix it for you. Think this way. You're not successful because your brain is broken." I don't think he's responsible. There's so much weird stuff going on in the online world.

Chris:
There sure is.

Tarzan:
It is a bit of a minefield and it's hard to figure out who's real and who's not. But I also do think if you're asking yourself these questions, you didn't invent them, so look at that, why does this feel off to you? And what could you do that actually you can get behind? And part of it is getting back to understanding your own, having a sense of self worth, understanding the value of your program, putting it out there or your service, offering it again and again, and the stronger ... The more behind your own stuff you are and the more confident you are that it will get results for people, the easier it is to actually show up for your marketing.

Chris:
I have to mention one more scammy kind of way of selling is there's an entry level product and each product is designed to sell you an even more expensive product. And you keep going up until you're in that inner circle which is total BS because if your product is good, it's where it's supposed to be. You don't just keep upselling, right? So whenever you see that, I'd always like, "Be careful guys, listen to your gut, do your due diligence." And unfortunately, a lot of these marketers, they prey on the people who are very desperate who really need the help who can't really afford a couple other options. But then they go in and they go in just blindly and they lose their money. Deep sigh. Okay. All right.

Tarzan:
Yeah. Deep sigh.

Chris:
Yes.

Tarzan:
Yeah. That definitely happens even that whole term inner circle, it's very much about getting to the top being in the insiders club. And the definition of being in the insiders club means a lot of people are excluded. So yeah, I see both sides also because I have climbed those ladders of other people's companies and found it really valuable. I don't really like doing those sorts of offers. So I can also make a justification for like, "Why they're icky and gross." Because I just, it's a lot of work to offer, to create that ladder and have those programs that people pay a lot and expect a lot for.

Chris:
Right. Okay. I want to get this one last thing in from you before we go. I heard you sharing this on one of the podcast links that you sent to me about there's these different types of clients or targets where they're unaware of the problem, they're aware of the problem, the solution product, can you tell us about that? Because I thought that was really valuable.

Tarzan:
Okay. So there's five stages of awareness. The first stage is problem unaware. It's like let's say you're a designer and you go to some, "I've tried this in my copywriting days." You go to someone's website, and their design is the worst thing you've ever seen. You can't pitch that client and sell them because if their website is that awful, they don't understand the value, they don't even know they have a problem. Next stage problem aware, I know my website is sucky. Well, you still have to take them ... Before someone buys they have to go through all the five stages, right?
So let's say they're in stage two, I know my website's sucky, I don't really know what the answer is, that's Stage Two. You could approach that person. Stage Three is solution aware. I know my product, I know my website is sucky and I know that hiring a designer could help me with that or let's say since we've been talking about programs, I know that perhaps taking a program about design could help me make my website less sucky. Now, they're solution aware. Next stage, product aware. So now I know I have a problem, I know that it could be better, I know, there could be programs to help me, I also know of this program website in a day that could be one possible solution.
So now they're at Stage Four, they're much closer to buying. Stage Five is where people are at when they buy which is like they understand all those other things, they understand there's a solution, they understand that one product that offers the solution is website in a day. And they also understand, "Here's what bonus I would get if I signed up today. I understand the cost, I understand the program is going to go for six weeks, I understand I'll get one hour of time with a designer."
That is most aware and that's where you have to get people to in order to buy. So that could happen on a sales call, it could happen in an email. Usually, in a launch if we're thinking about the context of like having a webinar where you present those people are problem aware, you present the solution, you present your solution. By the end, they're like ready to buy because you've walked them through every single piece.

Chris:
I love how you said that. I have a question. What is the difference between solution aware and product aware?

Tarzan:
So solution aware is like I want an online course. Wait, this is total pyramid scheme. I want to have a website. The solution is like I could take an online program that would teach me how to do it. So that's not specific to any one solution. It's like this is the solution ...

Chris:
Or the general solution?

Tarzan:
The general solution.

Chris:
I got it.

Tarzan:
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we call product solutions too, right? So it's confusing.

Chris:
Yes. I see. So then the product is I've identified now one place where that's where I think the answer is. Okay, like Chris's web design course versus Tarzan's web design course.

Tarzan:
Exactly.

Chris:
I'd pick the one over the other. And then the last stage is they're ready to buy, is that what we call that?

Tarzan:
So problem unaware, stage one, problem aware stage two, solution aware, stage three, product aware, stage four, most aware, stage five.

Chris:
Most aware. Okay.

Tarzan:
I think.

Chris:
Okay.

Tarzan:
Something like that.

Chris:
I like that. So you have to get every customer essentially through this and this is the whole funnel thing we're talking about, right? If it's a cold lead, they don't even know they have a problem. So you have to educate them on the problem as to why they're not getting as much traffic or conversions on their site, or why their bounce rate to their website is really high.

Tarzan:
Yeah.

Chris:
And then you're going to look for either a designer or some kind of training module, right?

Tarzan:
Yes. And in my days of writing copy for clients, I always had like an incredibly high conversion rate because the people coming to me were already product aware. In that case, I was the product, but they knew my website isn't converting, so there is the problem. Also, better copy could be the solution. That's stage three. Stage four, Tarzan could be the person who could write that for me. Stage five is the sales call. I'm just letting them know how it's going to work answering their most basic questions.

Chris:
Right. The fact that you were so poor or sucky at doing social media was a benefit to you because they have to work really hard to find you. And look you up. So at this point, they're very aware of a lot of things, right?

Tarzan:
Yes, true.

Chris:
So your ability to convert at that point is really, really high. So once they find you on email because prior to you doing your Instagram game, that's how it had to happen. So I think this ties into an idea that you mentioned in a different conversation about how you could still make a lot of money with a very small email list. It just really depends on the kind of people you've nurtured in your email, they're very aware that you provide a solution. Now you have to just execute on that and be in communication with them, right?

Tarzan:
Exactly. Yes. Precisely.

Chris:
Perfect. Okay, wow. Now, I probably could spend three more hours talking to you about all the different things and how to write killer emails and all that kind of stuff. I just want to ask you, what has been the best subject line that's gotten your emails open?

Tarzan:
Oh yeah, there's this great tool that I really love called BombBomb and it allows you to record videos and then it creates a little GIF of the first two seconds of your video and you put it straight into an email. It's really tempting and I love making videos for people. I also love using different types of media and email and then the subject line in lower case because it makes it seem like an email from a friend is made you a video. It works really good. I have to use [crosstalk 01:12:34]

Chris:
I love that. Okay. So mix me the email. I didn't really think of it like that. Very cool.

Tarzan:
I love using pictures and GIFs and emails.

Chris:
Okay, so for people who want to find out more about you Tarzan, where do they go?

Tarzan:
So I create my best stuff on my email list. So in order to get those, you have to join my email list. Lots of great freebies, but if you go to tarzankay.com/email, there's a 10 email promo sequence swipe that you can look at and get ideas for promo emails. I have lots of freebies on my website tarzankay.com, K-A-Y, but I would say like get the free thing, but stay for the emails because they're really good. And I also actually hang out on Instagram all the time. So I do lots of behind the scenes and I'm also active in my DM. So if you message me, it will actually get to me.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So on Instagram are you at @tarzan_kay, K-A-Y?

Tarzan:
Tarzan_kay. You look up Tarzan Kay, you're going to find me. I'm very easy to find.

Chris:
I didn't think you even had to add the underscore because it's such a unique name, but I guess [crosstalk 01:13:34]

Tarzan:
I know, but apparently I did.

Chris:
Dang, every combination has been taken. Very good. So if this conversation in your email answers to our questionnaire or any indication is your prowess as a copywriter, I'm going to say with great confidence, you guys, go check this out and find out more about what she's doing especially if you need help with email marketing, and let's be honest, who doesn't? And I'm raising my hand at this point too. Thank you very much for coming on the show with me.

Tarzan:
Thanks for having me. My name is Tarzan Kay, and you are listening to The Futur.

Greg:
Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony Barro for editing and mixing this episode and thank you to Adam Sanborne for Intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on Apple podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better.
Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefutur.com/heychris and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

More episodes like this