Rene Rodriguez:

I will sit with an idea before it hits a big stage for two to three years before I bring it to a big stage because they pay for an idea that has been vetted. You've got to test the ideas and sometimes these ideas are wrong. This is open mic night. You and I are testing material right now, you and I, and anytime you get a chance to open your mouth in an environment where people are going to judge it, there's an open mic night and just do it as often as you can.

Chris Do:

So my next guest has a bachelor's degree in psychology, behavioral neuroscience and business. He runs his own conference and he and I met backstage at Neil's event, The Forward Event, and we knew we had to connect because we share so many goals, objectives, and just ways of moving around in the world. Without further ado, Rene, welcome to the show.

Rene Rodriguez:

Thanks for having me, Chris, big fan of what you're doing. And every time I tell people, "Hey, I'm going to be on the Chris Do show, they're like, what?" So you're doing it right my friend.

Chris Do:

They're like, "What? Who the hell is that?"

Rene Rodriguez:

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. We know that's how they do. You got a lot of fans out there, my friend. So it's an honor to be here.

Chris Do:

Thank you very much. We'll be talking a little bit about the concepts from your book, Amplify Your Influence, and there's so many things I want to unpack and just dive into your brain. But for people who don't know who you are, Rene, can you please introduce yourself and tell us your story? And I just watched your TED Talk. Frame it for us, please?

Rene Rodriguez:

I love it. Well, so my background is behavioral neuroscience. I have spent the latter majority of 30 years asking the annoying question in the science community of saying, "Okay, so what the hell does that mean to X?" Meaning what does it mean to selling? What does that research mean to persuasion, to influence, to body language, to conflict resolution, to relationships, to dating? What does it mean? And I never wanted to be on the research side. I understood it, but my passion always was on the application side. And so I sold cookware door to door when I was in college. So I had a very strong sales background and did that and left when I graduated, went to work for change management consulting firm that used brain research to deal with massive scale culture change in very hostile work environments.

So that gave me a background in dealing with the real side of change, not the rah, rah emotional adrenaline filled side of what people think change is, because it's not, you know this, change is nitty-gritty, it's hard and there's a way to do it and there's a lot of ways not to do it. And so then over those years combining being able to have a sales persuasion background, background in neuroscience and dealing with real change. Also, then working with leaders, you start realizing that all of these sort are compressed together. And I landed was pulled into this one singular focus, which would be influence. And that's the ability to communicate an idea that people will pay attention to and also act upon it.

Chris Do:

Love that.

Rene Rodriguez:

That's what the book's about.

Chris Do:

Okay, well the word influence is used a lot. And I think if you're listening to this podcast or watching this YouTube channel, you definitely want to create more influence and impact in the world, not because it's a social vanity metric, but because you have an idea and you want to be able to share that idea. Now, in that talk that I heard you share with the young students there, you talked about an idea, you were born, you had lots of ideas, and you started to ask yourself the questions about why some of your ideas were not well received while other people's ideas were like people would gather around them. So maybe you can give us more insight into that story and what that means, especially as it relates to what you do today?

Rene Rodriguez:

For sure. I think that the best way to understand influence is taking a philosophical approach. And let's look at the opposite. It's weird. I like to look at the opposite of things to see if I can understand its opposite, then I can understand what it is. We know what good is. The better I know evil, the better I know good. And so there's always this, you have to know both sides of an equation. If you want to understand psychology, you also have to understand the dark side of psychology as well.

So for me, let's look at influence, the lack of it. You walk into a room and no one notices. You tell a joke and no one laughs. You share an idea, no one seems to care. You sell a product, no one's buying. You cast a vision and no one follows. That's a really tough place to be in life. And you ask people, "What word comes to mind?" They'll say things like, "Invisible, defeated, deflated, sad." And I probably would venture that it all sums up to the feeling of insignificant. And so let's kind of dissect that a little bit.

So often influence is seen as this offensive strategy to sell something or persuade people, but there's so much more to it. So let's say I felt insignificant in a meeting, I'd probably ask myself, "Why am I here?" And I'd probably try to get out. If I felt insignificant in a relationship, I'd probably start going, "Why am I in this relationship?" Now, a lot of people feel insignificant at work and they start wondering, "Why am I here?" And maybe this great resignation, there might be something in that where people now want to go somewhere where they feel a little bit more meaning and connection.

And sadly, and a lot of people feel insignificant in life. And I would venture to say that that feeling of the lack of influence, the lack of being a cause, or the cause to any effect in the world is one of the worst of human experiences. And so now let's bring it back in. You walk in a room and people notice, you tell a joke, people are laughing, you share ideas, people love it. You sell products, they're buying. You cast vision, and you can watch people mobilize to take action. Now what's the feeling? Now it's a feeling of joy. There's a feeling of significance because now I'm doing something. And so then if we go, "Okay, if I know why I'm here, there's another way of saying that I know my purpose for being here, and so if I don't have impact, then I really have no purpose in being here." And so it's kind of a backdoor approach to understanding this question that we all wrestle with, which is what is our purpose? And so influence, significance, purpose, the mark we leave on the world, all to me is relatively in that same world.

Chris Do:

Now you're probably the pied piper to people who consider themselves the alpha part of their group, the people who want to be leaders, the keynote speakers, the authors, the salespeople. There's a whole lot of other people who are like, "Maybe I don't want that level of impact, and maybe it's okay for me to walk into a room and not be the center or for people to notice." I myself have struggled with this. I used to feel very hot under the collar quite literally, when I got too much attention, I actually wanted to disappear for a while. So what's happening with my brain versus the brains of the people who want to do that?

Rene Rodriguez:

Well, I think one, that's a really great point, by the way. First and foremost, it's influence isn't about attention. Gaining attention, you have to capture attention by the way. But it's not wanting attention for the sake of attention holding your phone up saying, "Hey everybody." It's not about social media attention.

It is a much deeper human function in my opinion. So I also am an introvert. If I'm not working, I don't want to be the center. I don't energize in groups. I energize one-on-one. And so for me, being a public speaker especially, I think that happened the more and more events I started doing. So last year I spoke 239 days. And you do that for enough years, you start realizing that you start valuing sort of the quieter time. But for me, it's not about whether you're an introvert or extrovert. I know I do this more for if you want to ask my real purpose, let's have a real conversation. I don't want to do this for the rich and famous. They already know how to be influential. They pay the bills, for sure. But there are a lot of really mediocre ideas in the hands of people who know the influence game that are influencing people and the game is played a lot of times by people that aren't even that good of people.

But there's a lot of really good people with great ideas that have never learned how to get them out. And that's where my real passion is, is those people that are quieter, they process more, they think, they're probably shy, introverted, man, they have brilliant ideas, good-hearted people, but man, they were never taught. And so I get most joy out of helping those bring their ideas to the forefront and showing them that they can have impact without being attention whores. Sorry.

Chris Do:

You can say whatever you want.

Rene Rodriguez:

All right, good.

Chris Do:

It sounds to me like the thing that's driving you, the bigger purpose from what I'm hearing is that you want to create a more egalitarian society and that the best ideas win, not the person with the flashiest smile, or the biggest batch or the richest, or the biggest platform. And I noticed this in watching several of your videos, the clips that I was able to see online where you coach people over, it seems like a multi-day event, and you can see how they start and where they emerge. It's like you can't even recognize it. It's like you can't even believe that they're the same people, but they look the same. It's their same voice, but first they start off unsure of themselves. They're stammering, they're inserting a lot of ums, ums, likes, you know, that kind of thing, and you're helping them through all that. It's remarkable to be able to see. But then now I understand your point, which is these are the meek, not the alpha types who have powerful stories to share, can create tremendous impact in the world and might have a better idea than some of these louder people. I totally hear that now.

Rene Rodriguez:

Yeah, one, thanks for watching those. And you're right, sometimes the power goes into the wrong hands. And I don't know, I'm thinking through, you asked a really good question. Do I want to create a different kind of society where I wish it was the case? I don't know if I can create that, but what I can do is help those that maybe don't see their power, realize that they have more than they thought, and help them also embrace the fact that unfortunately, there's some rules that the world has created. And unfortunately, the world does listen to louder, more boisterous people.

How do we... But let's break that down further. Loudness and boisterous is a tool, that's one tool to be heard. There are other ways to be heard. That doesn't mean you have to be loud or boisterous. There are other ways to command attention without screaming. There's a lot of other ways to stop the show without jumping up and down. And so what we have found, is helping somebody tap into their most authentic style of who they are. So let's look at you. So you say that you're quieter, shy, but yet you have a really loud style like fashion style. That is one way to make an impact on people, which is fantastic, by the way. I love it. And that's also a really nice way to stand out and choose saying, "Okay, well there's a visual aesthetic to Chris Do. And then part of the brand promise is I know that he will always show up. He's not going to show up in a white shirt with a black tie, black shoes. He's just not, unless maybe that tie is around his shoulder and the pants are rolled up to his ankles and maybe there's one Jordan on one side, who knows? But it's going to be different. You can expect that from Chris." And so there's a way of screaming without screaming.

There is a book my mother made me read when I was 18 called Lions Don't need to Roar, and the lion walks in the room, we know it's a lion, we know it can kill us, but if a lion comes in roaring, we're wondering, does it even realize that it's a lion? I mean, we know you're a lion. "Roar, I'm a lion." It's like, "Yeah, dude, we know." And it's like, do they feel insecure that they have to yell and scream? We know that you're a lion. Just how about just hang out?

And that's where I think people confuse alpha with the role of the alpha. This is a great conversation by the way. It's like, so what would you say the role of the alpha number one role, task?

Chris Do:

Should be to take care of the pride, I think.

Rene Rodriguez:

Yeah, so how? Right? So a lot of people say protect to dominate, win, and to fight it's actually harmony. And the harmony is what protects the pride and protects the pack. And so in harmony, if you look at even ape communities, it's not always the biggest, it's the alpha. It's the one that can get others to do favors. It's the one that resolves conflict. Yes, it can fight. And yes, it is dangerous and yes it has strength, but that's just one of the many skill sets. And so when there is disharmony, the betas get together and oust the alpha until one emerges and the one that emerges is keeps sort of this harmony. And so I love that role of harmony and that's usually through conflict resolution. And for that, I've got to be highly influential. And I know a lot of people that are half my size that have more alpha energy and capacity than I do just the size, isn't it? That's just one piece of it. I know a lot of people that are twice my size that I wouldn't follow anywhere, that I don't care what they say.

And so there's a beauty in that sense of harmony and influence that is equal opportunity when people understand it.

Chris Do:

You are so unlike most of public speakers I saw at the two-day event, you walked on stage, you were pretty grounded in where you were. You weren't jumping around. So this man is practicing what he preaches. He stood there, kind of almost connected to the stage, and you weren't boisterous, you weren't jumping around throwing things at the audience. There was none of that fanfare, but was just came from you a quiet confidence. And I'd love for you to maybe compare and contrast to different styles. I know that you also work with other speakers that were on that stage, at least one of them. And how would you describe that in your approach? I love this part. You help people find the most authentic style to themselves, and that sounds like that's your style, but talk about that a little bit, please?

Rene Rodriguez:

Thanks for pointing out. I'm actually in a conundrum there because my style isn't one of jumping around, but now I'm also an extremely intense person. So when it comes to work and my passion, I'm really, really, really, really intense. But I think a lot of people have really mastered the louder stage presence and they do it really well. Some of them do it really, really, really, really well. Of course there are others that make up in loudness what they lack in content. So there's an emotional side to doing that. There's a success to that too, by the way. It's rewarded if you do bring that big presence there. There's a lot of perceived value in the moment there. I was raised through the ranks where my clients, they wouldn't hire you if you were running around. A lot of those speakers would never make it. With some of my clients at Coca-Cola and Cargill, and some of the more, I quote "professional clients" because they're there for business tactics and they need some, how do I do something? Some internal change processes versus advice, you should work on yourself every day. And everyone was like, "Wow, I write that down." And then they leave, they go, "What the hell does working on myself mean? It was so emotional, it made so much sense at the time. But when the emotion wears off, I don't have an answer to that question."

And that's where we say it wears off. Well, it wears off because you didn't really say anything. You just yelled it and there wasn't anything to working on yourself versus saying, "You should work on yourself every day. But here are three things that I do and we're going to do one of them right now. I want everybody to put a pad of paper and a pen." And so then all of a sudden now I'm doing the work or give them saying, "So when it comes to working on yourself, here are three things that you can look at to decide, and here are three resources that you can look at, or here are, here are here." Or when you come up and I bring somebody on stage and I can talk about this way, we bring people on stage all the time because I want to take the theory into practice. And I'll hand somebody a mic and I say, "Who are you? What do you do? What makes you unique?" And they go, "My name is John and I am social media consultant. And what makes me unique is I really care about my clients." I say, "Awesome."

And then I say, "Okay, now John." And so when it reveals I don't need a PowerPoint to show what poor presentation style is, I just need to bring somebody up on stage who's nervous and let them be. Now they also choose their way into that. And I say, "Okay, so John, was that a 1 or a 0?" And I rate people an influence on a 0 or 1 scale. 0, you're moving away from it. 1, you're moving towards it. And he's like, "Uh." I go, "Audience, what were they?" They go, "1." I'm like, "You guys are liars. This is a 0." That was a 0 and that's okay. It's totally okay that it's 0 because I'm going to show you what a 1 looks like in a minute here. And John has it in him, but he's just out of sequence."

And so now we're taking this idea of sequence and saying, "Okay, what does that mean?" I said, "Okay, so now John, you chose, you really care about people, so you care about people." I said, "Why?" I said, "What happened?" "Well, my mother always did." "Well, tell us a story about your mother." It's like, "Oh, wow. So my mother, every Sunday would always, and she tells this amazing story about mother, we always take care of this kid down the street on Sundays and didn't know why, but she was always so caring to the kids and realized that the kid's dad was in AA and knew that he wasn't there going to eat. So she always fed him and just had all these influences about this."

But the moment they start telling that story, they're in a very different chemistry and it's such an authentic delivery and it's so natural and believable. And so that's what we call connecting to your heart versus me saying up there and saying, "You need to connect your heart every day." And I go, "Yeah, I need to." And then I go, "How the hell do I do that?" Well, I'm going to show you exactly how. And this is by the way, it's bitten me in the ass too, by the way, because we're transitioning into doing more webinars and doing more pitches from stage, which I never did. And I was always about, let me tell you how to do something. And I'm a teacher, I'm literally going to show you how on stage, which is why I get paid a lot for it. But then the free talks where you have to pitch something, you don't give any, how you talk about what. And at the end when they want to know how, when you charge them, which is a great business model by the way. I've done it a couple of times and I make a lot more doing that than a speaker fee. And we have a pretty heavy speaker fee at $35,000. You make more money than the other, but it doesn't feel good and it doesn't feel right.

So when you asked me in the conundrum, if I'm being transparent, I am in that battle right now saying, "Man, how do I balance those two?" Because I always want to be like, "Whether you buy something from me or not, I want you to say that was valuable and I can do something." But then the consultants, the coaches of mine said, "Don't give them that. Let them pay for it." And I'm like, "Man, that doesn't feel good." So I'm convinced Chris, and I'm going to find a way to do both and I might lose my ass along the way. But who cares?

Chris Do:

I think you and I are very aligned in that and probably many other things that I don't want to make any assumptions here in that we see people who sell very specific way. They follow the playbook, they value stack, they talk about the why you need to learn something, the what, but not the how. And they make them hungry. They capture that high emotional state and they pitch from the stage, and they close deals at the end of the day and they make a good amount of money, probably more money than this other approach would for sure. But you, and I, I think you've already said it, self-identify as teachers. My joy in my life doesn't come from making more money. My joy comes from sharing with others fully, openly without any expectations.

And I believe, and you'll have to chime in on this, I believe it's like they're playing a game that is in quarters. I'm playing a game that might be measured in decades and it's going to be very different payout. And we've seen this happen before where somebody works-

Rene Rodriguez:

Love that.

Chris Do:

... And gives, and gives, and gives and they're like, poor as hell, or maybe they're not poor, they're doing okay, but we're like, "Why aren't they super crazy rich?" And then one day they flip that switch and that entire community and audience who've shown up for them time and time again, who feel a personal connection with, they will then pour it back and then they reciprocate in ways that we cannot even expect. At least that's the hypothesis. I'm not sure how it's going to play out, but both knew I seem to be on the same trajectory, your thoughts?

Rene Rodriguez:

I love how you said that. I love how you said that, and I've been looking for a way of thinking. So I'm 30 years into this game and people ask me, they go, "How'd you get to Wall Street Journal bestseller?" And I said, "When I think back to it, because there's a whole algorithm to making it work and you can't buy your way into it." But when I've been, and I told people, I said I spent 20 some years serving and delivering value without asking for anything. And then when I came for the book and I said, "Hey, can you guys help out?" I had so many people come, "Well, can I buy 500?" Like, "Shit, okay, yeah, well, all right, well then I'm going to give you this." And I'd give them a $35,000 product of mine that I would normally charge for the purchase of 500 books, which is what? $15,000 on their end. They're like, "This is all day." So we just, I'm like, okay, now I ended up losing but $400,000 worth of sales to get there. But people were so willing to help in that time they were just calling and saying, "How many can I buy? What do you need me to buy?" I'm like, "Well, I mean, I don't know. You tell me what you need."

And it was just really, really cool to see that. And I love that. And I would agree 100%. We are very aligned in that. And everybody that knew you before I knew you, that told me about you, said you guys would get along really, really well. Even Neil, shout out to Neil. Neil Dhingra, said the same thing. There is a long-term approach to this, and I asked, I get a lot of people that say, "I want to be a good speaker all the time for different kinds of questions. I'm struggling. I'm doing this, but I want to be a coach." And I just wrote, I would think somewhat controversial article in my newsletter about the ethical dilemma and the rise of the coaching industry. And there's a lot of coaches out there that are brand new and there's a good meme out there that says, "Lord, give me the confidence of a 25-year-old life coach."

Chris Do:

Good meme. I've seen it.

Rene Rodriguez:

And it's not to reign on their parade, but if you're going to be a life coach, how about get some life first, and go down some of those paths before you start doing that? And it's akin to giving directions in a town you've never been. And so if you are a personal trainer and you're overweight, maybe fix home first. I am not going to do a course on how to grow rich and thick hair, so I have none-

Chris Do:

I would be first to sign up.

Rene Rodriguez:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm not going to do a course on the menstrual cycle and what women are getting wrong, one, I've never had one and it's not my world. And so there has to be a sort of an ethical guide in this, and there is no governing body about it, but everybody's a coach now, and that isn't even a get out of my territory. This is more of a get in your lane. And I told this kid, he said, "I want to be a coach." I said, "Let go of wanting to be a coach and be so good at what you do that people start asking you how, and then you have something of value to offer. But if you stop it..." I was even on a call just even this morning there was saying they wanted to coach. And I said, "You run an successful brokerage, keep doing that. Don't stop." They want to be a speaker. "Don't stop doing that because you want to stop to become a speaker. You can make more money in your brokerage, but what's odd is that you'll stop the brokerage to be a speaker, but the brokerage success is what gets you people to want you on stage. So don't stop that. You got to be successful at it to lend to the other." And yeah, so we can go down that rabbit hole.

Chris Do:

Yes. Well, there's an idea that I heard Alex Hormozi say from the stage at a different conference, and he said something about, "If you just give enough value, the sales will become so easy that you won't even have to ask for it anymore." And it really ties into this belief that I have about karmic equity and that if you could just keep giving eventually maybe the other person's guilt or gratitude, I'll take either one. They'll find a way to reciprocate. I'll tell you a little personal story, and then I would love to hear if something like this has happened with you. I was at an ArtCenter grad show, and it's just right after the pandemic, so the energy is funky. Everybody's still wearing masks, and this woman comes up to me, I don't recognize her, and she said, "Oh my god, Chris, I can't believe you that you're here."

I'm like, okay, cool. In my mind I'm like, "How do I know you? Have we met?" And most of the times I don't know who they are. And she says, "I got to tell you something." I'm like, "Yeah." "You have done for me more than this school has." And for people who don't understand, the tuition at ArtCenter, the last time I checked, was $23,000 a semester. So I'm sitting here thinking, "I've done more for you for free than you have gotten from spending $160,000+ at a school." And so I did something uncharacteristic of myself. I said, "Well, there's always a way for you to pay me back if you're super grateful, but that's up to you. We have products that you could buy." I said it kind of cheeky and she smiled. We all laughed and everything, and that was the end of that.

Later that day, I'm on Instagram and somebody messages me, I mean going through my messages and says, "Hey, do you have a Venmo account?" "Yeah." I didn't fully connect that, that was the same person. I go to sleep, no big deal. I wake up in the morning as I always do, check my emails and socials and it said, "Somebody has given you money." I'm like, "What?" So I go into Venmo and I can't remember the exact amount, I should know this, but I think she sent me $2,000 and I was completely blown away, Rene, because this is the truest expression of gratitude when they don't even buy anything, they just send you money.

Rene Rodriguez:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

I hear that because it's, for me, it's just validation that what we're doing is working. And I'll take that. I'll take it from whoever wants to give it in any which way they want to give it. And if we continue to work this way, all I want to do is just teach all my life.

Rene Rodriguez:

I love that. That is cool, man. I bet you that $2,000 felt like $200,000.

Chris Do:

Oh, it felt like even more than that.

Rene Rodriguez:

Maybe $2 million. Yeah, I feel you. That's a great story, man. Has that happened to me? Yes. In people, I do an event as a favor for somebody. I try to help out. If someone's trying to create events and things like that, I'm available. I'm like, I've done that for a lot of years. It's harder now, but I've done a lot of it. And they'll come back and they'd be like, "Hey, we did really well, X." And I'm like, "Wow, that was really cool."

Here's what I've learned too, I also believe in karmic equity and all of those things, but there's another side that I think we need to add to it. Let's go back to Hormozi and some of the bigger players that are really good at it. There's a lot of times where people will tell you, "You just have to add value." But they forget how talented they are also at business model. Hormozi is really good at creating a profitable business model. He's really good at the psychology of getting people to fall in line and follow a funnel. He is really good at asking for business in really good ways. And so it's not just, and I don't mean to say because I don't know him, but I do admire him a lot. It's not just adding value, but you got to do the work to understand the psychology of how people pay for things. Because we also know when you give away things for free, they don't value them the same.

So there's a balance in there that I did so much free work for years and years, and years, and years. I'm talking two plus decades and hoping, well, this will pay off. Well, it did in the sense in other ways, but I also had to go through the maturity of saying, "Okay, hold on a second. I have to know my worth, and I have to be able to ask for it." Because what was happening, and this is the hard part, there was somebody paying for it the whole time. It was my family. And I realized that. I was like, "No, I'm giving away value, giving away value." While I'm taking from my family. I'm borrowing from my family to pay for other people's education. And then that hit me really hard going, Okay I need to think broader about what equity means because nothing in life is free.

Now, there's an ethic in terms of how much, there's gouging that can happen. There's things that, so there's that moral compass and a friend of mine and I we're talking about, there has to be an integrity alarm. JJ Masa, if you're listening to this, this is our conversation, that integrity, that internal alarm that goes off of saying, "Oh." Because we have a lot of things that accountability that's external. We go to the gym, you get a work out partner that's external. But there's a lot of internal challenges that I think we have to be able to resolve, and that's one of them. So I think that you have to look at the overall equity of who all is doing and who's sacrificing time away from you. I owe it to my kids, and my wife, and my family to charge what we're worth and what we've been creating so that, especially if I'm doing this business that has no asset, I can't sell what I do at the end.

So I have to be able to build something that if I were to pass, that my wife and kids are okay now. I'm not saying I need to leave them a bunch of wealth. My wife, I need to leave her the same quality of life. But I had to say, "Okay, there's a piece of the give, give, and give for sure." But there's also a Rene grow up and learn how to run a business. And now within that I'm giving and I'm running a business now do it ethically. So there's all those pieces that come into play. So I think a lot of people that don't, how do I say this respectfully? A lot of people that will tell you life balance is important. They're also the people that are very wealthy that unbalanced their life to create the wealth that now go back and go, "Shoot, hey, you can have all that I have with life balance." But that's not how it works. And I have asked thousands of people this question, "How many of you have done something big in your life?" Great. "How many of you did it balanced?" And all hands go down and it's like, okay, so maybe it's not, the goal isn't balanced. Maybe the goal is integration and harmony. That's how I think about it.

Chris Do:

I feel the same way, and I'm glad you brought that point up about Hormozi and that he did something good in his life that he had enough money to do whatever he wants. And then he also built a different business model that this whole giving actually feeds into that business model, the funnel, as you say. And so if you give away and you're not taking care of yourself, like the whole oxygen mask on the airplane, if you don't have oxygen-

Rene Rodriguez:

Yeah, good one.

Chris Do:

... You're going to perish, right? I get that. Thanks For bringing that up.

Rene Rodriguez:

He is giving, and I think just a lot of people know they have to get the business model done, as well.

Chris Do:

I want to just come back to this real quick. You had said you came to the realization that it wasn't free, it comes at a cost, and it came at the cost of your family. How'd you come to that realization and take me back emotionally once you realized that, what kind of decisions did you make from there?

Rene Rodriguez:

I think it was just looking at, so my wife and I, the 239 days that I spoke, people say, "Wow, it's unbalanced." I said, "Well, it's integrated because my wife booked it. She runs the business and it's harmonious." She said, "Hey, go play this tune and I'll play this tune." And we meet. She comes on a lot of my trips. You met her. She was there. And so that was harmonious. But now in the last year or so, she's like, "Oh, I don't know if I want to keep doing this if you'll be gone this much." And I'm like, "I don't either." So we don't like the tune. So we go, "Okay, so how do we change it?" That's where we started doing more of the, and we're not getting rid of the high impact work, but we're incorporating, what I found was that there was a way to achieve both, where we're doing our free masterclass, which leads to a two-hour value added event, which I do show somehow how, but then there's the thing that I discovered was I can give you a ton of how, and then at the end say, "There's a heck of a lot more how, if you want to do that, you can buy into a different program."

And so I think we found a pretty high integrity way. And the coaches that I have do this for some of the biggest names that you and I would both know, and I put both of them through my program. So they go, "Okay, I get where you're coming from, Rene." So they get back and they're like, "Okay, Rene's program has to be different. It can't be gimmicky. It has to be something that if you don't buy, you still get value, but yet has to illustrate the immense value and endless journey of content that is also on the other end of this." And so I think we've innovated in a pretty cool way of achieving both of those.

Chris Do:

So we'll have to circle back in a year or so to see how the program's going, the transition that you made, the innovation and all that kind of stuff to say, looking back now, what would you do differently and what kind of insights can you share with us? I want to ask you, because we have another friend in common, Mo and I know works with us. He works with you, and I was looking at your TikTok account with over a million followers. The question I have for you is, everybody would love to be in that position to have that kind of social proof. What have you noticed in terms of the videos that you put out there, any patterns where those are the ones that connect and resonate, those are the ones that go viral, those are the ones that get a lot of people to follow you. Because I would love to learn from not only what you did, but what messages were contained in those videos.

Rene Rodriguez:

For sure. Well, and shout out to Mo, if you don't know him, follow him. Mo Ismail, he's a genius. And he was one of the first people to tell me about you, too. So I think that what he and I talk about our videos every day, he knows that I am highly hands-on, so he loves it and is frustrated with just how hands-on I am. And so in terms of when we first started, it was like, "Okay, what worked? What didn't work? What do we like?" And we do another video. "Okay that worked, that didn't, how about this? And then we need to change the color. No, you can't read this." And I mean what people don't realize it takes a lot of effort. I mean, it's an everyday look at the content and every day saying, "What's working, what's not?" And right now we're kind of in this little lull, I'd say, where we were getting 50 to 100, to 500,000 views and one of them got 25 million.

Now we're getting anywhere from 1,000 to 12,000. And so it's an interesting time, but we looked at it and Mo is so genius and we know that if I have a hook in the front of it, meaning where I'm speaking to the camera saying, "Here are the three things that..." Or, "Have you ever found yourself..." Some sort of hook that it performs a lot better. And we were doing a lot of videos where I just got really busy and I wasn't able to provide a hook for the video. We would do a podcast clip and then I would record a hook to put in the front of it. That always performed better. My podcast when I sit here and record and I just give wisdom, nobody likes it. And it's my favorite stuff, no one likes, by the way, that's just like-

Chris Do:

Internet [inaudible 00:35:24].

Rene Rodriguez:

I know, I know when I'm not going to hit good. I'm like, "I love this one." And my wife's like, "We know it what 100 people are going to like it?" But the ones that I hate, yeah, it's crazy. And the ones that I hate are the ones that go viral. But what we found is that my audience doesn't like sales tips. So the videos that kind of brought us viral were me coaching people. And so if I'm there coaching somebody through a process and they watch it before and after they love those, that's when we start going viral. And so we, in fact, Mo and I had this conversation today where we're going to go back and just dissect, I've got 14 terabytes of video of me coaching people. So we're going to go back.

Chris Do:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do:

People love roleplays for a bunch of different reasons, and I think going back to your meme thing, it's like, "God, grant me the confidence of a 25-year-old life coach." It's because you can demonstrate what you've done. An expert is someone who's practiced something, and you can literally see the before and after, and your style and have to say, it made me feel a little uncomfortable watching it, I am feeling bad for the person. They're stammering their way through and you're like, "Stop." They got a word out. Rene's killing them right now. He's destroying them. And so what we find in our own videos is the things that are elicit an emotional response from the viewer are 10 times more likely to be watched because we need to know how this turns out. Either they love you, or they hate you, but they're going to keep watching it to see. And that's why, that's why these deep philosophical thoughts that we're like, "Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm sending out." But then you get a hundred views or a hundred likes and that's it, right?

Rene Rodriguez:

It's interesting you said something about, so one of our videos, I think at 6 million, I started off by saying, "I wasn't a Kobe Bryant fan until he passed away, and then I learned his story and I grew to love who he was." That was the hook. It wasn't even the hook, it was just what I said on stage. And people lost their minds about me saying, "I wasn't a Kobe Bryant fan."

"How dare he use that man's name? Get that man's name out of your mouth. We need to cancel this guy, immediately." I said, "I grew to love who he was. I just wasn't a fan. I was a Michael Jordan fan." So if you want to go viral, just talk about Kobe. That's another thing. You're right. It's got to elicit that emotional response. It's funny, I've never approached it from that perspective. But I think what's interesting too, and is we can have this conversation, it's okay, then I go out trying to elicit an emotional response versus let it organically come up because I see a lot of people trying really hard to do it, and it's embarrassing to watch. You're just trying to be controversial and you're trying to do stuff. And I think the audience is also smart enough to see through that too.

Chris Do:

I think they are. And when you're trying too hard, we can see and it comes across as inauthentic. The other thing that I've noticed too is that when you say something like, "I wasn't a fan of Kobe Bryant until he passed away, then I learned to love him." What you're doing there is you're jumping and catching trends, and you're making your content topical for a whole group of people who don't know who the heck you are. You're giving them a reason to care. The metaphor I described to folks is think about it. It's like your knowledge, your experience, your wisdom, all the frameworks and tools that you provide, that's like a vitamin. And no one likes to take a vitamin. They're gross. They're rough on your throat. So what do they do? They put them in gel caps or if they're brilliant, they make them into Flintstone gummy bears, and then people eat that. And so I try to tell people it's like, "You have great content, you're a great teacher. There's so much that you have to offer the world. You got to put it in this gel coating that people can swallow, and then they're going to get the nutrients that you provide." So in that case, your news jacking or your trend hopping, and it's not a bad thing, it's not an evil thing to do that, you're just making it contextually relevant to people and that's really important.

Rene Rodriguez:

I like that. I needed to hear that. Thank you. I've been, it's funny, I'm my own worst enemy in some of this stuff because I opt out of so many things because I don't feel the authenticity of it. But the news hacking in terms of that, it is funny, three years ago, three, four years ago, I wrote this. Somebody asked me what I think of the state of the world right now, and I wrote this thing for myself. We were going through a bunch of branding stuff and I said, "What world have I found myself into? I find myself in a simple sugar, fast food environment where people can't watch a minute, a video that's left more than a minute, whatever happened to actually consuming and sitting down and studying an art form? And if it doesn't capture attention right away, it must not be valuable."

And I was so bitter about how the world had transitioned to this sort of quick hit. I called it, "Simple sugar, fast food, but nothing is just mental junk food." And I was almost then rebelled against it. I'm holier than thou. And then that's when I realized, I'm like, "Okay, well what if I could wrap..." Like you said, and I love that, wrap good nutrients in it, in the good tasting content or something that captures attention. And that's where Mo came in and helped me sort of see that.

Chris Do:

Okay, the thing that I have to bring up now, is that those videos that I watch where you're coaching people, I love to see the transformation. I'm on the edge of my seat. There's some emotional anxiety that I'm feeling like, "Oh yeah, it's so rough. I can only imagine being that person." You come across a little bit different in some of those videos than how you're coming across right now. And the part that people don't get to hear sometimes is you ask the class, the workshop that you're running, "I need your permission to be able to interrupt you to be a little bit aggressive to grind it out." Because I think you said something about either discomfort or anxiety. That's where the learning comes from. Can you expand on what you say and why you do what you do?

Rene Rodriguez:

Yeah, I'm curious how I do come across from that perspective. But you're right, they don't see that this is some people opt... All of them opt into it. And I use a very stressful approach for a very scientific reason. So I'll get nerdy for a minute here. When it comes to learning, there's two types of things that we have to learn. One of them is called biologically primary things, and some things are biologically secondary. So biologically primary are things that we have to learn in order to survive, how to read a friendly face versus a dangerous face, how to protect ourselves physically in battle, anything emotionally intelligence related, intuition to connection, and all of that stuff is primary activities.

And then we have biologically secondary meaning things that if we don't learn, we won't die, but they're secondary to our success, like algebra, reading and writing, geometry, physics and anything that's biologically secondary you can learn through theories, axiom's, principles, and formulas. Basically school with a guide, which will be a teacher, and you can take a test and because you read about it and you learn about it through theories and formulas, and you test well, you can perform well and you'll retain the knowledge in a usable fashion. Usable fashion's, the critical piece. So what happened is most often our schooling system and teaching, and coaching is designed around using biologically secondary modalities. Here are the theories, here's the axioms, here's the pamphlets to read and watch this video. It's like basically saying, "I'm going to teach you how to box. Here's this pamphlet. Read it. I'm going to teach you how to shoot a gun and get you ready for war in this simulator. Wow, you're a bullseye, bullseye, bullseye."

Well, I passed the test on how to throw a jab cross, right hook and pair a punch. But now I get in a ring and all of a sudden I got my butt kick because I'd never seen a punch come at me. And there's a whole physiological response that happens that you can't learn in a classroom. You can only learn that by being in the ring. And so the stuff that I teach when we're talking about being intuitive on stage and having a presence, and being able to communicate under high levels of stress, meaning eyeballs, meaning a client that says, "I'm giving you the attention of my entire company and in fact deliver the message." I mean, that's pressure. And any professional athlete, any military personnel would understand that level of pressure. They didn't learn what they did under easy environments. Every one of the elite learned under stressful environments because, so they studied, when they looked at people learning primary activities using secondary methodologies, 15% of them retained the knowledge, that was usable.

So they go, "Okay, let's look at the 15%, what was different about them?" And so they zoomed in on that study and they said, "Okay, well these people had a preexisting condition of stress." Meaning, "I better learn this, or my wife is going to leave me. I better learn this or I'm going to lose my job." So stress was this component to drive in a lesson that was a primary activity. And so we go, "Okay, so we know stress is a big component." And the same way I talk to military leaders all the time, I say, "So when you learn how to shoot a gun, I'm sure it was a room, it was air-conditioned and Mozart was playing with big earmuffs, right?" No. People yelling, and screaming, and bullets flying at us, and it was hot. And people, it was just... I'm like, well, "That's not optimal learning environment. Why would they do that?" "Well, we have to train to the level that we're expected to perform in the environment we're expected to perform in." Got it.

Well, that's what we do with speaking. I'm going to put you in a very... Now, some people come to me already highly stressed, then I don't have to be really hard on them. In fact, what I'm trying to do is help them now manage it. I want to teach people that stress is not a bad thing. They say, "Well, do the butterflies go away?" I said, "No, but you can teach them to fly in formation. And so I got to put you in that very uncomfortable environment from a place of love." And they know that I'm coming from that position to then say, "Okay, now you're here. What do we do?" And then we learn in that moment right there, what do you do when you're stressed? And they learn about breathing. They learn about attentional narrowing. They learn about all these little techniques to get them really honed in and focused so that they can access the parts of their brain that already retain the knowledge. Because what happens under stress that parts of the brain shuts down. And so if I can teach you those simple methodologies to get access to it during the times of stress, that's where we begin to perform at a whole nother level.

Chris Do:

That makes a lot of sense. And I see why you're doing that. You're trying to recreate the conditions under which they're going to perform so that you're stress testing the system. So if they can perform there, everything else is going to be like a walk in the park, right? You got to use live ammunition. You got to use real explosions, otherwise, it's too comfortable.

Rene Rodriguez:

You got it. And people ask for it. I don't ever do it with somebody who doesn't ask for it. Well, we want them to understand is that what ends up happening, I've had one person went through his course 11 times in one year. It got to the point now where when he does his talk, I would literally go and throw things at him. And one time I dumped a bag of candy in front on the table while everybody's looking. And he had to step in front and continue his conversation and continue the talk. And then he used the noise as part of the framing.

And one time I poured water on his head as he was speaking, and I just whispered in his ear, figure it out. And he had to just deal with the anger. Because imagine you're on stage and your PowerPoint doesn't work, or the lights go off, or your mic goes off, or you got to heckler, right? So when you're training the elite on this, you've got to get them elite level training. Now remember, he's 11 times into it, and he went through and he did this big presentation and a big prop he was using wasn't working. So his presentation was going to bomb. And he turned that into a cool lesson, and he came afterwards. He goes, "Thank God you did that to me in training, because I don't know how else I would've made it out of there." And nobody knew it bombed, but we both knew what he was trying to do didn't work, and he just turned it because he was able to maintain a really calm state.

Chris Do:

You just reminded me of this thing that I really love and enjoy and that comedians do all the time. So before you're going to sell out the football stadium, go on a global tour, you're playing in very small venues with a crowd that doesn't care, that's belligerent. They could give an F who you are, they're just there for drinks and a good time, and you're working in front of 10, 12 people, and you have to hustle to get those people in the room to begin with. And they're just trying material and they're bombing all the time, getting heckled. That builds a muscle and it callouses their skin. And so they're so good and they're ready. So by the time the general public's ready to see them, "How'd this guy get so good? Why are they so witty? How can she turn a phrase like-

Rene Rodriguez:

Open mic nights.

Chris Do:

... And they do.

Rene Rodriguez:

We call them open mic nights.

Chris Do:

And I love it. I'm always wondering, is there a space like that for public speakers?

Rene Rodriguez:

Yes.

Chris Do:

And it seems like that's what you've created in a way.

Rene Rodriguez:

Lots of them. Well, there's lots of them. I love that you see that. I try to tell people, "If you follow the journey of a comedian, it's the best journey." So I call him open mic nights, and I use the same example. I said, "Watch..." When Dave Chappelle, before he came back from when he was gone, he was in Minnesota, and he'd pop up at my buddy's restaurant and just show up there. He'd pop up in different clubs and he'd be hanging out with my friends, people that were nobodies in their houses, smoking weeded. And he did it for years. He'd show up in Detroit and do this stuff, and he was getting to know with the crowd what was the world? What was happening with the world? Getting reacquainted again and doing open mic nights, and you try out new material. And I remember watching one of my favorite, and he was always on the roasts. He was just one of the best roasters out there. He's really, really super smart. But he was out there and I went and saw front row, and he was doing all this material and nobody in the audience knew who he was because his jokes weren't landing.

He kind of talks, he goes, "Ah. He goes, nobody seen me before. Let me try some old material." And he starts going into these old jokes that I heard like 10 years ago and they just started hitting. And he is like, "Okay, well this stuff works. I'll give it to them." And so he's testing out material as he's going for what works. And yeah, I will sit with an idea before it hits a big stage for two to three years in that environment before I bring it to a big stage. And they go, "Okay, so why?" Because they pay for an idea that has been vetted.

You've got to test the ideas. Sometimes these ideas are wrong and they're not all that good. There's no depth to it. But yeah, if you can test those ideas, rotary clubs, free events, associations, create your own, do podcasts, this is open mic night. You and I are testing material right now, you and I, and anytime you get a chance to open your mouth in an environment where people are going to judge it, there's an open mic night, give a toast with your family, do a toast at a wedding. Those are all opportunities just to get your chops in and just do it as often as you can. And somebody asked me, I listened to Joe Rogan and he nailed it. How long does it take to create an hour talk? He said, "Well, it takes 30 days to create 10 minute, so it takes six months to create an hour." I was like, that's about right.

Chris Do:

So I am fascinated by this idea. And so hopefully as we figure out what we're doing, I want to have a space where I can create my own club and invite folks like yourself, anybody, it's like, "Hey, you want to test a new workshop, a new thing?" There'll almost always be an audience ready to go. You can drop in fairly unannounced and just do your thing and just test your material. I need that as an educator and as a speaker. I need to feel the audience and see what resonates, and I can't do it on the main stage and be testing that new material right then and there, doesn't make a lot of sense. So I want to be able to create the comedy club, if you will, for public speakers and just a darkened room somewhere.

Rene Rodriguez:

I'll give you this. I do it 34 times a year and I'm going to give you an open invitation anytime you want to come, just pick a date, just show up and we've got an audience there for you.

Chris Do:

All right, is this in your studio? Where do you do this?

Rene Rodriguez:

No, this is at Amplify. We do it 34 times a year and there'll be an audience in there. You'll be a guest and-

Chris Do:

Oh, I see what you are saying.

Rene Rodriguez:

... You'll add massive value to them just being there. But you also get a chance to test out ideas. So just consider that an open invitation.

Chris Do:

Okay, appreciate that. Thank you, Rene. I want to circle back to something, this miraculous transformation of the caterpillar into the butterfly. It seems to happen over a period of time. I think it's three days, but I don't know. What is happening in between the Cinderella moment and the ugly stepsister? What has happened there? What are the key ideas, the breakthroughs, the things that you're teaching people that allow them to have such kind of a radical transformation?

Rene Rodriguez:

There's a lot happening. So part of it to understand is my background is also in accelerated learning. So my mother was starting accelerated learning in the seventies, and so I grew up around those ideas, and accelerated learning began with what they call liberating education, in South America where they were teaching adults how to read and write in a faster way to liberate them in sense. So if they were stuck in a communist environment, education would help free them out of that or an oppressive environment.

And so they had to learn really fast ways based on brain research back then on how to teach them. But now we call it adult learning. It's really just accelerated learning techniques. And so a lot of it has to do with stress and caring enough. We do use a process called co-learning, co-learning is real-time feedback, real-time correction. And so that's where the uncomfortable piece comes in. If you're saying, "Um's, um's." Like you're two um's in and "Okay, you're fifth, okay, good, let's just start over." And then they start it. Okay, so now I'll make people learn how to walk onto a stage and they'll watch me practice it 30 times with them. But then the 31st time they get it, instead they got 30 reps in there instead of doing it one time, getting feedback on a sheet of paper and says, "Okay, try to fix this." And then they may not get 30 more reps at that same walk in their lifetime. I'm going to give them 30 reps in about five minutes and we're going to nail it.

And what happens, the co-learning is I'll ask people, when you're watching the stressful learning, if you're feeling the stress of someone's learning, you're also learning with them. And so when it comes your turn, you're going to take every single thing that you witnessed and you're going to incorporate it because of the stress that was associated to it, it ingrains into your brain. So I'm walking an audience all the way through this process. And so there's a couple of things that happen. One, is that we create a baseline of what's happening. And so that's where we do a lightning round. "Who are you? What do you do? What makes you unique?" And let everybody fail. And we sort of establish this is the line in the sand, the baseline, we're never going to go back from here.

And then two, each person is a new lesson that comes up and we teach them how to tell stories. And so most people try to memorize their talk, but if I were to ask you to tell a story of something that happened to you, you wouldn't have to memorize it. You would just tell it, because memories are memorized. And so we teach them the art of speaking from the heart, which is three things, your belief systems, your values, and your memories. Your memories are the only way you have access to your belief systems because those are formulated between the ages of 9 and 13. So we dive into that time period because the things that happened, who was around and what happened, become the foundational core of who you are. And then if you can learn to hit play on those memories, now all of a sudden because of the recollection of them and the authenticity of them and you didn't write them down, the delivery becomes really authentic and very real.

And then we teach them what we call Aristotle's rhetorical triangle of ethos, pathos, and logos. Ethos is your credibility, your character. Pathos is the emotional, the passion of appeal, it's got to be emotional, and logos is a logical appeal. So they learned to structure those stories within those three, and then they get practice doing it and then they go to sleep. The first day is really grueling.

Now there's new research coming on. This has been around for a little bit, but Huberman has made it pretty popular around a set of neurons that if you go to sleep and you have sort of an intense day of training and you have an intentional change in mind right before bed, a set of neurons has to do with acetylcholine system line up in essence. And they basically, the moment you go to sleep, they go to work making change in the brain and making new pathways so that when you wake up it's much easier.

That's an oversimplification of what's going on, but it explains why every time we have sort of a day of learning and then we rest and we come back, that things move exponentially faster because of the prep and the priming that's happened the day before. And so they come back on that second day and all of a sudden the things are clicking and they're telling a story, and we give them a very simple sequence of set up the frame, which is a story, deliver the message on top of the story and then tie it down, which says, here's what this means to you. And they use that methodology to be able to deliver that. And so it's an intense two and a half days, but the transformations are really fun to watch.

Chris Do:

Well let me cue you up to demonstrate this idea of setting up the frame the now and then tying it down by asking you a question, which you've already answered, but there's a good probability that people haven't seen this part yet, is Rene, what is your favorite color?

Rene Rodriguez:

So I was born in Miami, Florida and moved to Minnesota when I was about seven years old and lived halftime Miami, halftime Minnesota. And so I really never felt at home, but if I found myself on a beach and I saw palm trees, I knew that I was close to my friends, my food, my music, my family, and all the things that made me happiest. Palm trees are green, so my favorite color is green.

Chris Do:

Okay, now explain to everybody the difference between that and just saying, "Orange, or purple, or blue." What's the difference? What's happening? What's the stuff that's happening beneath all that?

Rene Rodriguez:

We use that color. And so the premise of that is, is that most people is what we call the question trap. So most people fall into question traps, meaning that most people that ask questions don't put much thought into the questions that they ask. And for some reason we feel compelled to answer questions that are asked of us, even if they're dumb questions. And thirdly, the person asking the question is leading. And so if somebody asks us "Who are you? What do you do? What makes you unique?" We feel compelled to answer that. So if you put all three of those together, is that we feel compelled to let somebody lead us down a path that they didn't put much thought into. And so we have to sort of unlearn that and we teach that through a stupid question, "What's your favorite color?" And so we use that as a training tool to say, I'll go around a room and say, "What's your color?"

"Blue, red, green, purple, yellow." I said, "Great." And then I'll ask a past student through that question or they'll come to me and I'll give that answer. And they're like, "Okay, all right." So now the skeptic is going to say, "Just answer the question. No one wants to hear your story." It's a training tool. So let's put that context together. So one, remind, why? Because it follows the pattern of how memory works in the brain. It's associated to a story and an emotional connection.

And secondly is, I told you a lot about me just because of a stupid story or question. And a lot of people will wait for good questions to give rich answers, but they'll give stupid answers because they were asked stupid questions. So I say, "Stop waiting for rich questions, give rich answers even in the face of dumb questions." And so that's like the art of even beyond media.

The media will try to pin you in a corner. You still can answer the question, but in a way that serves your purpose. And so you learned about me, that I'm from Miami, that I'm probably Cuban and I like Latin food and I didn't feel at home. So there was a lot of turmoil during that time period. So you learn a lot about me just through a question. And so a lot of people that we experience that way are the ones that we go, "God, I just met them, but I feel like I know them so well." They usually have more of a structure. So the technical structure is the mistake, is avoiding the mistake that most people make, which is when they're asked questions, they answer in the here and now, "What's your color?" "Red." But that's not how the brain works. The brain, to make sense of the red or the here and now, we have to use what we call constructs of reality.

How do I construct red? Well, based on past frames of reference. So if I were to say, "Used car salesman." What word comes to mind? Snake, sleazy, slimy, all those things. Well, I just gave you a here and now. And immediately without any context, your brain was forced to go to your past frames of reference, what we call and pull a frame that creates a narrative. And together the frame and the narrative construct your reality of understanding the sleazy, douchebags salesperson in front of me.

And so now, if we know that, that's how the brain works and we're constantly answering questions in the here and now without context or frame, then we don't know the narrative that surrounds that, that constructs the meaning and the understanding of what's going on. The first thing we teach is to don't answer in the here and now answer with a frame.

I'll give you an example. So my grandfather was in Cuba and he saw the Cuban revolution was about to begin, and he knew that was not good for his family. So he had this bright idea to write a letter to the President of the United States and saying that, "If you get me and my family out of this country, I'll come in and fight for yours." So that letter somehow made it to the right person and they pulled my grandfather out, my grandmother, my mother, and my aunt. He went and served in the American Armed Forces for eight years, and finally he got his American dream, landed in Homestead, Florida.

Now, if you've ever been in Homestead, Florida, especially at that time, the only thing that was there was Patrick Air Force Base. So there wasn't much employment, but somebody saw grandfather, saw what he did for this country, and got him into an older vehicle.

And that older vehicle allowed him to extend his reach by 50, 25 or maybe even 100 miles, allowing him to have better employment, make more money, and change the trajectory of his life, my mother's life, and ultimately my life. And that person who believed in my grandfather was a used car salesman. So now did you have any sleazy negative thoughts about this person? No, because why? I went and filled the gap of what your brain would've done automatically, but it didn't have to. So I'm much easier to listen to because it didn't force your brain to work and pull some frames of reference just to fill in some gaps. I did it for you. And if you bought into the story, you use that to create meaning and construct this person in front who seemed like a great guy just happened to be a used car salesman, which really was irrelevant to the fact because he helped your grandfather.

He seemed to be a really good guy and he helped somebody who was a war vet. Wow, that's really cool. So think about the job that we all do and how often we leave the gap or we call the narrative gap open for others to fill and we don't know how they're going to fill it. And so that creates a massive risk in communicating, price value, communicating your profession, what your intention is. And so that's why it's a three day or two and a half day course. It's just there's a lot of depth to it, but a lot of practice as well. I hope I answered your question?

Chris Do:

So it did it. I have a follow-up though. So there's the here, the now, which is we're hardwired. It seems like we're maybe socialize or cultured in society and classrooms to give quick answers, be succinct, brevity is the soul of the wit, that kind of thing. We're accustomed to doing something like that. Then we talk about, well, absent the frame of reference, we are creating too many gaps for the other person to come up with their own narrative, their own story. But by providing the frame, we tap into the emotional part, we give the context and then we answer it.

Rene Rodriguez:

So the tie down, good question.

Chris Do:

What is the tie down part?

Rene Rodriguez:

You really did your homework, man. I love it. I'm honored by that. So the tie down is the third part of what we call the amplify formula. Formula, because it is the three things. One is frame, second part is message, and tie down. So it's a sequence. Set the frame, deliver the message, and then tie it down. So the framing is a storytelling and using something to create context. Sometimes a frame is as simple as a prop. Sometimes it's as simple as one word, like somebody says, "Hey, can you make it to the party?" And you answer without a frame, you might say, "No." Or you could say, "Unfortunately, no." So that word unfortunately creates a frame and a better narrative to understand that I wanted to go, but I can't make it, versus just, "No." The brain is forced to then something up. And if they're insecure, they're going to go, "Wow, he hates me."

The frame sets the tone for the meaning and the understanding. It's almost like the Trojan horse, the Trojan horse, what would happen, there was guards up and they wouldn't let the soldiers in, but then they disguised a message. This was a message of death, unfortunately, in this gift. And so that lowered the guard, and so frames lower the guard of the brain and get people open to an idea. And that idea is a message. So here's what I want you to understand, that maybe our product is valuable or I'm the right speaker for you at your event, or that you should go on a date with me, whatever message you're trying to deliver. But then there's a tie down at the end. Now the tie down, you won't find this written anywhere because it's a very unique concept, but it's something that people do intuitively already.

And you do this already. I've watched you do it. It answers the question of what this means to you is, and I would venture to say it's also one of the reasons why people love you is because you're constantly answering that question for them of what this means to you. So the example, the best example would be through the story of Janice. I had an executive that they wanted me to prepare for a very big job interview. This is a billion dollar president position within a company, and the interview is a 6 to 10 hour interview where she sits in a chair and there's 10 people in front of her, and they drill her with questions. And so we did a mock interview and I put her in front and I look off to the side and ask questions, or I just observe sequencing, timing, language, body language, facial expressions, all the things I look for.

First question we asked her was, "Tell us something you're proud of." And she answered like most executives were taught, short, concise, to the point with no frame. She said, "I got straight A's my last year in school." And of course, they said, "What'd you think, Rene?" I said, "Well, since there were no frames, I started framing her. That's what the brain does." I said, "Oh, so you're straight A's your last year in school? So you're a procrastinator? You're going to procrastinate for us as well." And she looks at me like I'm crazy. I said, "Oh, sorry. Did mommy and daddy pay for school? So you didn't have to work that hard?" Now she's got a tear running down her eye. I said, "Janice, I said, I didn't mean any of those things." I said, "But what am I supposed to do with straight A's my last year in school? I don't even know what that means. There's got to be more there. But I do know what was important to you, wasn't it?"

And she just nodded her head and I said, "Why?" And she said, "When you grow up as a kid surrounded by adults that tell you that you're not very smart, you tend to believe and act that way and tell you that you're stupid. And so I didn't do real well in school, so I looked myself in the mirror in my last year in school and I said, either I'm going to believe them forever or I'm going to do something about it, and I did something about it." So now that frame changes the entire story. Here is somebody who now was a procrastinator to now somebody who's abused, and told that they weren't smart and they were stupid. Now we're fighting for her, but she hasn't influenced us yet.

She's brought us in, she's enrolled us, but she hasn't influenced us yet. That's where the tie down comes into play. So to understand the tie down, you have to have what's called an IO an influence objective. And in a job interview, your influence objective would be to get the job. So if you were to put all three together, and this is what it feels like, remember the first one was, "Tell us something you're proud of?" Straight A's my last year in school." Frame's gone wild. Okay, well, if you frame it told I was stupid. We're like, "Wow, that was amazing. She's a fighter who's next?" No action taken.

So all three feels like this way. "Tell us about something you're proud of." Frame. "Well, unfortunately, growing up I was surrounded by a lot of adults that told me I wasn't real smart. And when adults speak to you that way, you tend to act that way. And I did not do it real well in school, but something happened in my last year in school where I looked myself in the mirror and I said, either I'm going to believe them forever or I'm going to do something about it. So I went out and gotten the help that I needed my nose to the grindstone. And I'm proud to tell you..." Message. "...That I got straight A's by last year in school." Tie down.

Now, Chris, I'm assuming that if I get a chance to work with you and your team, then we're going to be facing some pretty big challenges, maybe some seemingly insurmountable obstacles, but if I get a chance to be on your team, I can promise you this, that I'll be out there next to you, if not out in front, overcoming those challenges in the same way, frame, that I did in my own personal life except for this time, tie down, for you and your team. Frame. Message. Tie down.

Chris Do:

Very good, Rene, thank you for doing that. I've seen it. I've heard it, and I needed to capture it for our audience who are probably at this point like, give me more, baby, give me more. I love it. This is so awesome. I want to say this thing because your path in life is quite different than mine, but here we are kind of going our own way. And then there's this crossover where we get to meet in real life and have some very serendipitous conversations outside a cafe or something like that. That's led us to this moment, which was pretty hilarious, but story for another day. But it is fascinating to me the similarities in which you teach the frame, the message, and the tie down-

Rene Rodriguez:

I would love to hear it.

Chris Do:

... Something that I teach and I just want to share it with you because it's just remarkable. Okay? So I teach in one of the things that I do, a communication module where I teach people about how to say the uncomfortable things or how to deliver unpleasant news and things like that. I'm serving mostly creative people who are conflict averse, who are doing everything they can to avoid any level of stress emotionally.

Rene Rodriguez:

We need to empower them.

Chris Do:

So I say to them, "I want you to imagine your mind, yes, I want you to imagine your mind a train. And the train has three parts, the engine, the middle part, and the caboose." I don't know what the middle part's called. And unfortunately, what most people do is they just say, you're fired, or I can't take this job. And that's the caboose, that's the outcome, the delivery of the message that you want. So we have to go back, we have to see what's the engine that's driving this message? So the example that I like to give is when you're ready to fire somebody, you have to tell them emotion like what you're going through. So I would say to them, "The engine is, I've been up all night, I've been thinking about this for three weeks, and I'm at a point in which I don't know what else to do. But here's the thing, John or Mary, you and I have talked about this before, and you can't consistently show up late and still be here, and I've warned you before. So unfortunately, as much as I don't want to do this, I have to let you go."

And so there's the three parts. What is the emotional part? We're going through the reasons why. There's a little bit of a quick story, and then you have to get to the outcome. If you spend too much time in the story, they start to lose what's going on, and you'll lose the courage to say what the outcome that it is that you want. So what we say is, "Think about the outcome, the impact or the outcome that you want to have, the message, and then build it backwards." But don't just go in there and say, "Yes, no, you're fired. I want the job. I don't want the job. I hate you."

Rene Rodriguez:

I love that.

Chris Do:

Give them a little bit of that, and just this little trick allows them to feel brave and courageous enough to say uncomfortable things. There is some overlap there, yes?

Rene Rodriguez:

You're framing, you're delivering a message. And I love the analogy. It's so easy to follow, and especially from, I mean, that's the beautiful thing is this is all about, I tell people, the people that are very successful are following this model in their own way. They've intuitively figured it out in some way, shape, or form. I'm just labeling it in that way. But I love that sort of three part series of, because you're really setting the frame and you're using an emotional frame. And you're also, there's a framing thing that I like in there is you're also saying that you care too. You're starting with care. So you're following how the brain needs to be able to reduce what we call psychological safety by showing that you care. It's one of the first questions the brain asks, it says, "Am I safe first? And then do you care about me?" And if I can show that I care, that's a really strong way of creating safety as well. So you kind of killed two birds with one stone. And so I love that. That's really brilliant.

Chris Do:

Thank you. As you were sharing it, you have the neuroscience, the psychology, the 30 years of talking about stuff like this, whereas, I've been coached, but I've just been doing it and then trying to explain to people how I do what I do, and oh, that makes it a lot easier. And the thing that really is difficult for folks is inertia. They're on the train track and it's like 1,000 however many tons. It's very difficult to move. And so looking at someone in the eye, someone that you care about emotionally, professionally, personally, and saying, "You can't stay here anymore." It's too difficult. So they punt and they keep punting it down the field. So two weeks, two months, sometimes a year later, they are like, "I got to get rid of this person." It's creating all kinds of internal conflict for them. But if you just start with, "Here's who I am as a human being, this is the thing that's driving me." All of a sudden you start to build the momentum, it becomes a lot easier for you to follow through with what it is that you have to say. And I'm speaking from the patient's point of view. I've struggled with this for many, many years.

Rene Rodriguez:

No, dude. You're doing such good work, man. And I love that you've got a really clear community of the creatives. I have a passion for the creative community because just my creative director, George Castillo, is a huge fan of you. And so I'm going to give you a shout-out to George, and he sent an email. He is like, "I got a chance to email with Chris." I was like, "If Chris saw your design, he would be a big fan of you, George." George is amazing. But George is the type you're talking about. He's very quiet, ridiculously talented. So incredibly talented. I mean, if you've ever seen my logo, I don't know if you've seen my logo, but you'll see that the word neuro is hidden in it, and it's ridiculous.

Chris Do:

That is clever.

Rene Rodriguez:

I don't know how he did it and how he found it, but yeah, I think that the creative community can create so much healing in the world because they hit on things, they communicate things in such a beautiful way that can be lost in the business world and in the hardcore approach to things. But creativity and the creatives are the ones that the artists, they're a beautiful group of people.

Chris Do:

So I've been talking to Rene Rodriguez, he's the author of the bestselling book, Amplify Your Influence. There's a couple other things that he's doing, but if you've enjoyed this episode, I want to tease the audience here in that I think this is part one, and we're going to bounce podcasts because eventually, I'm going to be on Rene's podcast, so we'll continue these conversations. We'll geek out on public speaking, our mission to teach the world without being scumbag marketers, and we'll see if it's going to work or not. I believe it will. Rene, it's been a real pleasure chatting with you. I'm so glad we got a chance to bump into each other at Neil's event.

Rene Rodriguez:

Likewise, a pleasure. And the honors all mine. And shout out to Neil for the amazing work he's doing and for bringing some good people together, and for Mo for being the creative master behind a lot of what we're doing here, too. So my friend, I wrote down inspiration, form, and hope... What would you say? Hope?

Chris Do:

Hope marketing.

Rene Rodriguez:

Hope marketing, man. Oh, that's so good. Dude, your reputation precedes you, and being able to have a conversation with you has been just delightful and refreshing, and I am looking forward to the next 30 years together having fun even more conversations.

Chris Do:

Beautiful. I look forward to it myself. Thanks, Rene.

Rene Rodriguez:

Awesome. Thank you.

This is Rene Rodriguez, and you're listening to, The Futur.

Stuart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Stuart Schuster. Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sandmore for our intro music.

Rene Rodriguez:

This is Rene Rodriguez, and you're listening to, The Futur.

Stuart Schuster:

If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me. Head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode.

If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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