Be The First To Know

Welcome aboard! We are thrilled to have you.
Uh oh, something went wrong. Try submitting the form again.

Anthony Banks

We last we spoke with Anthony way back in 2018. At the time, he felt stagnant at his current job. Though his needs were met, there wasn’t much opportunity for growth. Cut to three years later: the world is a different place and Anthony is now right where he wants to be. But where exactly is that?

Death by a thousand cuts
Death by a thousand cuts

Death by a thousand cuts

Ep
166
Dec
08
With
Anthony Banks
Or Listen On:

Ditch your golden handcuffs

We last we spoke with Anthony way back in 2018, in episode 148 to be exact. At the time, he felt stagnant at his current job. Though his needs were met, there wasn’t much opportunity for growth.

Cut to three years later: the world is a different place and Anthony is now right where he wants to be. But where is that?

Did he remove those golden handcuffs in pursuit of something more? Did he ride out the slow boat to nowhere? Or did he do something else entirely?

In this episode we find out what path Anthony chose and ultimately what led him there.

If you missed part one of this conversation, do yourself a favor and go listen to it. Then come back and hear the rest of the story.

Episode Links
Hosted By
special guest
produced by
edited by
music by
Appearances

Episode Transcript

Anthony:

Okay. I'm asked to do these things that are low value, so is that the value of my time? Is that the way that I'm perceived? It was like no any one big thing that kind of made me start to feel dissatisfied. It was like a death by a thousand cuts.

Chris:

Anthony Banks, it's so good to see you. I can see now know that you're in a different place. It's been a really long time actually, since we recorded those initial sessions together and people have lots of questions. So let's just do this first, in case they haven't listened to that episode. Who are you? Tell us what you do.

Anthony:

Sure. I am Anthony Banks. I remain an illustrator and graphic designer in the great state of Nebraska.

Chris:

Okay. Are you still working in the same place?

Anthony:

Well, that's part of the story. Isn't it?

Chris:

It is. And I can see you're in a totally different environment, a different house, but you're still in Nebraska.

Anthony:

Yes. Yes.

Chris:

Okay. So let's get caught up here. How long has it been since we last recorded?

Anthony:

Oh, it's been ... has it been three years, two years? Something like that?

Chris:

I think so. Yeah.

Anthony:

It's been a while.

Chris:

It takes a while to edit it and get it out there. And so people listen to that like, "What has happened to Anthony?" And that's why we're having this conversation.

Anthony:

That's nice.

Chris:

Yeah. So help me really quickly get a sense of what's happened in those two or three years. Give me the footnote version of that.

Anthony:

Okay. So gosh.

Chris:

The Cliff Note. Yeah.

Anthony:

Sure. So, the last time we spoke, I was working the full-time gig, in-house designer, doing the freelance stuff on the side. Trying to raise a family and have it all, but I was kind of struggling with that. Did I want to stay where I was? You know, could I go out on my own? How was that going to impact my family? And was I okay with that? So whole lot of stuff going on. Since then, I quit the job I was at, got COVID and then went back to the job that I had left after working at another job for about two weeks.

Chris:

Okay. Hold on. This is terrible. I should not be laughing. I should not be laughing at all. Okay, so you quit the job. You got hit with the COVID and then you went back to that job or a different job?

Anthony:

So, I tell you what, I started a new job and it was a shock to everybody. And I felt kind of nervous myself, because it was a big leap for me. This company had reached out to me a couple times and finally made a really enticing offer for me to go there. I was at the job for about a week and at the end of that week, I was already like, "Ugh, I think I made a mistake. I think I made a really big mistake."
During that week, I contracted the COVID, so then I spent the next week working from home, trying to recover, spending a lot of time laying in my bed, staring at the ceiling in a cold sweat, just kind of thinking about my decisions and what I was going to do. So a lot of reflection time.
And after kind of struggling through that week and just hoping it would get better, but it didn't, I had to reach out to my new boss and say, "This is not happening. This is not working." And then I reached out that same day to my old boss and I said, "Hey, I think I made a mistake. I don't know if I can come back and work for you, but I can tell you that I'm not going to be working where I'm at now." So that's where it was. And they said, "Please come back."

Chris:

Okay. This is so awesome. I mean, okay, I understand the story now. I have more questions for you.

Anthony:

It's so weird. It's super weird.

Chris:

It is kind of weird. It's like you left your girlfriend and going with the new hotness. You spend a minute with the hotness and you're like, "No, I made the wrong-" and you come, not begging, but you're like, "Will you have me back? Will you take me back, baby? I made a mistake." And the old girlfriend said, "We'll take you back."

Anthony:

You had me at hello.

Chris:

All right, let's go through a couple of these, the exact steps here. When you quit your job, how did you resign?

Anthony:

I mean, I resigned the way that you're supposed to resign, keeping all bridges intact.

Chris:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Anthony:

I went to the president of the company, because we have a really great relationship and just told him why I was leaving. And it was a tough conversation because it was a person that I legitimately like and respect. I was leaving a job in a company that I really liked and really just loved everyone there.
So it was an easy conversation to have because there was so much trust there. And I didn't think it was going to be a bad conversation, but it was a hard conversation that you have to have sometimes. So it was ... they were surprised. Frankly, as I was saying the words, I was surprised that the words were coming out of my mouth, but that was what it was. And yeah, two weeks of trying to wrap things up and then I was out.

Chris:

How did you phrase it? Don't skip out on the details on us.

Anthony:

Well, so I think like a lot of these types of conversations first, you yank the bandaid off.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

So it wasn't beating around the bush. I just came and sat down and said, "Good morning," and just laid it out there. It's like, "I just came to let you know that I've accepted a new position and I need to put in notice."

Chris:

Wow. Yeah. You did went straight for the rip off of the bandage.

Anthony:

Well, because I mean you can understand how ... you get the butterflies in your tummy, you're going to go have a conversation like that. And I knew that if I tried to talk around it, then I would get tongue tied. It would get weird. And then they would pick up on something weird versus like, "Okay, let's put it out there."

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Process it for a second and we can talk about it.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

But that's the topic of this conversation.

Chris:

Okay. Well, who am I to judge the way you handled that? Because couple weeks later, you're right back at it. "Yeah. Come on right back. Let me just, oops, do over." And that says a lot about you, though, and the relationship that you have. One is that you're a valuable employee. Somebody else might like, you know, "He's a good guy, but it was good riddance. Fine." Right? "He did us a favor by leaving."
And two, it says a lot about how you quit, because how you quit can actually close doors for you because you're like, "I'm out of here bitches. Don't let the door hit you. And I hate this place and I hate you and I've never respected you in my life." So you give them a piece of your mind and then for sure you've burned all those bridges.
But also I think it goes a lot to the boss that you have, because a lot of people would feel betrayed. They would feel hurt that you left them for someone else for no other reason, except you see something greener. So now it's like the pasture's not green here anymore. And so that's a big person to say, "You know what? Put my ego aside, Anthony is a stellar employee and we would be worse without him than we are with him. So no harm, no foul. Welcome back." And so how long has it been since you've been back?

Anthony:

It's been about six months.

Chris:

Okay. Did you notice any changes?

Anthony:

Yes. Yes. So anytime something like this happens, of course, everyone wants to know why.

Chris:

Yes.

Anthony:

You really have an opportunity to have those really deep conversations, which maybe you should have been having up until that point anyway.

Chris:

Right.

Anthony:

But if anything, it's like now we get to have those conversations. And what I was struggling with before was feeling like I had sort of done all that I could do there. I had checked all the boxes. I'd helped them work through some things and that the challenge wasn't there anymore. The opportunity for growth wasn't there anymore. And frankly, I was trying to work through like, "What is my next step?"
Because I'm a designer of a certain age. I'm getting up there, I've got some experience. And once you get there, you're looking at, "Well, do I want to manage? Do I want to do all these different things? Or do I really like doing what I'm doing?" Which is designing and creating.
So there was some something I needed to figure out for myself too. It's like, "Do I take this next step and move forward as stepping away from the creative, stepping away from the box and just managing projects and schedules and employee conflicts and all that fun stuff. Or do I just keep making things?"
And the job I was taking was an opportunity to really dive into the non-creative aspects of the creative profession. And so I figured out right away that that was not for me, that I am, at my core, a creative and a creator. So when I went back, that's something, a conversation that I had. It's like, "This is what I want to do." But it didn't feel like a small box that I was being placed in, it felt more like the box where I was the most comfortable and I wanted to be.
But at the same time, I ... so, in my role, there were a lot of just small, kind of inconsequential projects that would come along and they had questionable value. They weren't really a creative exercise. It was like, once you create enough systems and processes and templates and things like that, then just turning out a bunch of ... a quantity of stuff, based on those is not fun or fulfilling.
But it's figuring out new solutions, better solutions and tackling bigger problems that intrigue me the most, so that's a very roundabout way of explaining that whenever I went back, we all aligned on the fact that my time would be better spent finding opportunities to take advantage of new mediums or just try to tackle bigger problems than I was, as a general rule, with a little bit of that kind of day to day, small design stuff, rather than having it be a 50/50 split.
So they needed me to work on more meaningful projects because when I left, they had people who they could give something that I'd already designed and say, "Change out this copy, swap out this image. Basically, it looks good, but now we need to do more things. We need to come up with more creative ideas. We need to come up with more compelling content. We need somebody who can not only come up with an idea, but then see it through execution and to execute it well." Rather than actually more is a little bit of that and a lot of production art on top of it.

Chris:

Right. So let me see if I understand this. I think in the life of every creative person is the idea of what next, where do I go with this? And how do I advance myself and continue to challenge myself? And the natural thing to come up with the conclusion is I need to get into management, because that's where the action is. I want to be a decision maker.
But the more you move up into management, the less you are actually doing the work, the thing that gives you joy. And so it sounds to me like you needed to figure that out and you did and you came back and you're like, "You know what? I thought that was an itch that needed to be scratched and it wasn't. I'm happiest here, but there are parts of my daily routine that I don't love."
And you all came to an agreement that you're better off for the company and for your longevity to get rid of some of those things, maybe pass it on to juniors and allow you to do some things that push the company forward, creating more value for yourself and for the company. Did I get that about right?

Anthony:

A hundred percent.

Chris:

So sometimes we get into to this place where we have a familiarity with a person and this happens when you are a high performing person that just gets stuff done, that you then inherit more and more responsibilities, things that you don't even need to be doing, but because the managers, the higher ups say, "I don't want to worry about it, give it to Anthony."
And so they do. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, this feels good," at the beginning. And then it's just like, "No, I'm just getting sacked with a lot of stuff and I don't know how to get out of it." So I think, looking back on it, how might you have handled this other than quitting the job in the first place?

Anthony:

Hmm. So one of the things I struggled with, maybe this will be a good way to get there. One of the things I struggled with is that in the time that I've been with this organization, which is about six years now, they've grown a ton. They've doubled in size. So they started out at around 30, 40 million. Now they're around 80 some odd million.
Whenever I joined the company, there was a marketing director and I was their first hire as the designer. So there was a two person marketing team, very, very tiny. And over time, just the companies exploded. The people in all the different departments is quadrupled. And initially, whenever I first started, I was sort of the go-to guy for all things creative because there one guy who knew how to use Photoshop and whatever, and that's how it works.
So whether it was like t-shirt designs or koozies or campaigns, I mean, I was kind of working on everything. And I think what happened over, we grew so fast that that belief that I was the guy that had to do everything sort of wasn't challenged at any point. So there were just more and more clients. Imagine your client's quadrupling, but you're still one person, that little bottleneck trying to feel like the really important projects and the not so important projects.
And I think part of it was me not really understanding that something needed to change because I kept trying to do what I had been doing up until that point. And so if I wasn't getting things done, then maybe that's something that I'm doing wrong. I knew that there was our team, the marketing team I'm on, grew quite a bit. The leadership was kind of changing and evolving and growing with the business.
So maybe they didn't have a ton of visibility with the things I was struggling with. I wasn't really good at asking for help or even understanding when I was trying to deal with a situation that was a bit beyond my control. So it just felt like a lot of scrambling. And in all this work, working on things again that were, that felt like very low value, so then it's like, "Okay, I'm asked to do these things that are low value, so is that the value of my time? Is that the way that I'm perceived?" And I think that's just that little, it was no any one big thing that kind of made me start to feel dissatisfied. It was like a death by a thousand cuts.
And so I think if I had been better at understanding what the larger issue was, and sort of getting over my own innate desire to just be the pro-, well, you know what, I'm not even going to call it a desire. Just the habit that I've developed over years to be the solution, to be the problem solver, just to be quiet, don't complain and just keep your head down and get things done.
And if I had thrown up a flag sooner, I think it would've started the conversations that would've maybe led to other conversations about where my time was best spent or teaching other people in the company, our internal clients, that maybe this isn't the best use of our time anymore. Because we have really important KPIs that impact the business and when we're spending a lot of time working on stuff that doesn't do that, then it impacts everybody.

Chris:

I think you and I are very similar in our personality. I don't know. It's like we're two dudes, or if it's a male or female thing, but when I was running my company, a service design company, there would be little things that annoy me. I'm like, "It's a little thing. Don't sweat all the small stuff." But actually after a while, all that small stuff adds up to be a big thing.
And now I really believe in this and I'm trying to live this way. It's not always easy for me to act this way, but Brene Brown said, "Choose discomfort over resentment." And that means that when something bothers you and if it really does bother you, it's not one of those perceived insults or slights, if it really bothers you? Say something about it. You don't have to say it in a violent way, but you need to communicate to people.
Otherwise, you get more of what you don't want. And that's sounds like kind of what happened. So if we go back in the way, way back machine, and then we'd have to tell the younger Anthony, when you're feeling something, to not ignore your feelings. And you're not being petty by communicating that to others.
Because that's what I used to think. It's like, "Oh, I'll let that one slide. It's beneath you. Move on, move on." But after a while, it's like, people learn behaviors and they see that I don't think I really think this way, but it's the collapse of boundaries. And it's like, "I'll give you this little thing. No problem." "Oh, he's okay with little things. I'll just keep giving." "Oh, let me call you Friday night at nine." Not that was happening, 'But I'll call you Friday night at 9:00 PM to give you something to do that's due on Monday."
And you're like, "Ugh, whatever." And you do it. And then now they're like, "Oh, Anthony has no life, doesn't matter, just give him whatever." And we accept these things. So the lesson learned here is whoever you are in whatever job that you have tried to maintain the clearest and most open line of communication, if it's welcome.
Some companies, they don't want to hear it. They don't want to care. They don't care about you at all. And you're going to be barking up the wrong tree, but in a case like this, the company's experienced tremendous growth and everything has changed around you, except for the way they look at you. And so if you can speak up about that, you won't have to get into this place where you have to explore elsewhere and ultimately return. Right?

Anthony:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:

Now. Let's move on from there. Okay. So you get COVID. What happened? How down and out were you?

Anthony:

Oh, it knocked me way down.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

So it was, they say sequester yourself for about two weeks.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

And I'd say for about a week and a half of that, I was down, down. So just ... cold sweats, didn't get hot. And then just laying around, no energy, breathing problems. Which is so weird because I'm generally the one that I don't get sick or if I get sick, it's just a little bit, so it was so weird that I got knocked down and I'm not accustomed to it.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

So it was just weird just to be isolated, just feel bad, got this whole new job that I don't like situation going on all at the same time. So it was just, it was a lot of ... it was a great opportunity to just reflect on everything.

Chris:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). At any point in time, did you feel like, "Oh, this is it." I mean, because COVID hits people in different ways. Some people have zero symptoms and some people wind up dying. You sound like somewhere in the middle, there, where it messed you up.

Anthony:

It was like having the flu really, really bad.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Because years and years ago I had the flu, like the normal flu. It's like, "Oh yeah, that's what that feels like." But it was weird. I mean it was, yeah.

Chris:

You have fever dreams?

Anthony:

No fever dreams. But it was like one of those things where I would feel a certain way one day and then I would feel bad in a different way the next day.

Chris:

Oh! Like it moved around?

Anthony:

It came in about three different phases. So by the end, that's when I was having breathing problems. But other symptoms were abating, but it was almost like a boss fight and I kept advancing to the next level.

Chris:

Working itself through your body and all your symptoms. Right?

Anthony:

Yes.

Chris:

Did you ever feel like you needed to go to the hospital?

Anthony:

Well, fortunately, no. When I started having problems breathing, I kind of freaked out a little bit because that's what you hear about the respiratory stuff. Fortunately, my father-in-law is a doctor, so he brought over a little thing to check my blood oxygen level. Just to test that out, just to make sure I was okay. And it was fine.

Chris:

Yeah. And I just want to say, because people can't see you. I've hung out with you in real life before. You are a healthy, strong, physically fit guy. And so you're like, "I'm not used to this. This is really weird. I have no energy." And that could hit you in a lot of different ways. Right?

Anthony:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:

And now you can't do anything. So all you have to do is to think for two weeks. And so then you can start going in the cave of your mind, if you will. Okay.

Anthony:

Absolutely.

Chris:

I'm glad that you're doing fine now. You're obviously back at work. How did this impact your family life coming down with COVID?

Anthony:

So fortunately it wasn't a huge impact on them because whenever COVID was impacting me, it was kind of impacting everybody.

Chris:

The whole family had it?

Anthony:

Well, so the whole family got tested. The whole family tested positive.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

I was the only one that got knocked down like that.

Chris:

Oh.

Anthony:

Yeah. Which I felt fantastic about because honestly the whole time when everything was going on, the last thing I wanted was to bring it home. Because at that point, I felt very confident in my own health, but I wasn't sure how it would affect the kids and everything. So I was kind of worried about that, but they were just bored with being isolated. And I was, yeah, I was the only sick one, which I guess, was best case scenario.

Chris:

They're playing video games. You're like, "Help me."

Anthony:

I can't taste anything.

Chris:

Tell me what this tastes like. All right, so we got it. You guys are quarantined. And now I want to talk about the new job and what component of it, without revealing who it is, so we don't have to get into that space. But what was it about the new job that you thought this was it, then it became this is not it.

Anthony:

Where it all started is I started having conversations with the person who would become my new boss, because at first I wasn't sure if I wanted to leave and I wasn't even willing to go in and have an interview, because it's such a small town. The wrong person has to see me bring interview clothes, walking into the wrong building.
It's such a small community. I could definitely see it getting back to my other companies. I wasn't very comfortable with that, so it just turned into a coffee date. We were going to get together. We were just going to chat, get to know each other. And I was really impressed with the person. I mean, I still am, with the person that was going to be my new boss, potentially.
And so we had some great conversations and I mean, it felt like we were aligned. It felt like what they needed really aligned with what I could do. And then there was a significant pay increase too. So while I'm trying to figure out, you know, "What's my next step? What does that look like?"
This sounded like it could be that next step of financially and career-wise, so I was really intrigued. And when I started, almost immediately, it felt like all the things that I was going to be doing were the things I was least excited about and there was a ton of it. And I maybe came in with the assumption that the, okay, so it was like, what I thought was going to be a small part of my role, ended up being a big part of my role and vice versa.
So there were parts we talked about that really excited me and this turned out to be it was going to be a very small part of my day to day versus just a lot of the management piece and juggling project management, juggling people and you know, all kinds of stuff.
And within the first couple of days, just because they had been looking for somebody for a while and they were ... anytime you hire when it hurts and you have a lot of different people carrying the load until you bring the person on? As soon as I came on, it was like, "Here's all these things." I got sat down in front of a whiteboard and like da LA, LA, LA, LA LA, "Here's all the things that we haven't done for the past six months that you're going to do in the next three months." And I was like, "Oh no."
And just the dread started to kick in me. But then there was that other apart that was like, "Okay, you know what, it's the culture shock. It's a new thing. Just kind of bear with it. Maybe you'll feel differently about it in a couple days." But the dread just started to mount as I was working through things and just getting a sense of what my day to day was and just thinking, "I don't know if I have it."
So by the end of the first week I was feeling kind of like I had made a mistake, but I wasn't willing to give up yet. Then I got COVID and I was still working through, I could have taken the next week off, but I decided like, "No, you've just shown me everything that I've got to do and I already feel, I just started a week ago and I feel three months behind. So I'm going to just kind of push through and work remotely and do all this stuff from my bed."
And that feeling of dread just kept growing and growing and growing. So by the next Friday, I woke up and I said, "I have to have this conversation because ... this is not what I want. I'm not doing them any favors by sticking around." Because whether I make it another week or two, maybe that's another week or two that they could get the job description back up and start talking to people. But whatever, I just need to get out.

Chris:

Wow. Okay. This is interesting because I want to get into your mindset here a little bit. You just left the other job. You sign on to this new job with the responsibilities that you thought you were going to do, but something funky is happening. You get a pay increase, so at least that part's good, right? You're going to make more money.

Anthony:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:

And all of a sudden you're like, "Oh my God!" It's like buyer's remorse, instant. You're like, "Wait, is this really what I signed up for?" And most people say to themselves, "I'm a person of my word. I committed to this. And then I told my last boss, I'm leaving. So I closed that door. Didn't burn a bridge, but I closed that door and here I am."
And then we feel this need to be consistent. That because we said we're going to do something, even if it tears us up inside, we're still going to do it. I've agreed to do things for friends that I knew was going to create some friction in my personal life. And I should have just said no to that person. I didn't.
And then I got to go home and deal with the wrath of the fallout of the decision. But I can't back out because I told the person I'm going to do this thing. A different person, a smarter person would've been, "You know what, Johnny, I can't do this. I'm sorry. I wasn't thinking. I've got to back out. I hope you can find someone else to help you." Right? And just leave it like that.
Tell me a little bit about your thought process in terms of the potential inner turmoil that you're going through. That you had just committed to this newer job that they're paying you this, and maybe there's some misunderstanding on both parts, but the job's the job. What were you telling yourself at that point?

Anthony:

Well, so exactly like you described. Yeah. Whenever you make that commitment, whenever you say you're going to do something, that was a thing that was stuck there. As much as I was kind of panicking about, "Wait, what did I get myself into? What's happening? Oh no." There was that other part of me that was like, "Well, you said you're going to do it. So you might not like your job, buddy, but this is the job you got. So just keep going." And that's probably what got me through the first week, even, past the first couple of days.

Chris:

This sounds like a total bad fit, that you would feel this way, like the first week in. Oh my God.

Anthony:

And in their defense, I mean, it wasn't like I went there and it was a really terrible environment. It wasn't like anybody was mean to me. It wasn't like there was something that I could point to as ... "Everything was fine except for that jerk. And then he chased me out," or whatever. It wasn't anything like that at all. They were very nice people. I felt very, and that was the other thing too. If they were jerks, it would be way easier to have that conversation say, "I'm, I'm leaving. I'm bouncing," but they were very nice.
So I realized it wasn't them, it was me or maybe it was just us, what they needed, versus what I wanted, didn't align. And I had to think about it. It's like, "Okay, I'm not happy right now. I'm really not happy right now. Do I think I can figure out some way to get over it? Can I change myself or change the situation or something in a way that will make it work?"
And what I don't want to discount either is the fact that that second week, while I was sick, trying to work on their stuff, that could have had some impact on my mindset as well. Because it wasn't like I was perfectly healthy, working through the stress. That I had this other thing on top that was physically knocking me down. So maybe it just accelerated things a lot. And so it's possible that it could have been a more emotional decision than I would normally make. Because healthy, normal, Anthony might have stuck it out for a couple more weeks just to get through.
But when I was just physically drained, felt bad, trying to keep. And then on top of that, feeling behind on all this stuff and feeling like I was letting them down. That wasn't good fit. It was like so much stuff all at once that I just felt like I had it to hit the eject button.

Chris:

How'd that conversation go when you actually said, "You know, I can't work here."

Anthony:

Well, it was a surprise.

Chris:

Of course.

Anthony:

For them ... well, in part too, because we had just got to knowing each other. I'd been in the office a week and then I had been working remotely for a week. So, there hadn't been a lot of conversation or FaceTime or anything like that. So, I imagined it felt like a bit of a shock. And even in the moment when, of course, very good person, kind of wants to dig in. It's like, "Well, why what's going on? What's happening?"
And I feel like even at the moment, I wasn't really good at articulating it, because I was trying to process a lot too. It's like, "I'm feeling all these things, but I'm having a hard time even now articulating it really well." And of course, I was nauseous at the time. Not because of the conversation, just because of other reasons. So it's probably the worst case scenario trying to have that conversation.
So then, to his credit, he says, "Hey, you know what, you don't feel good. You have to process this. Why don't we hop on a call on Monday," because it was a Friday. "Just think about it over the weekend." So we had a conversation the next Monday and I was a bit better at saying that, "What I thought this role was going to be was not quite what it's turned out to be. I don't think I'm going to be doing you any favors sitting in this role. I think you need a different person to do everything that you need."
And yeah. And that's basically where we left it. And I mean, of course, that whole conversation feeling like I really let somebody down, that I failed. It was really tough to feel that while you're having that conversation. Fortunately, he didn't rake me over the coals over too much. Maybe he'd had a couple days to think it's like, "Hey, if this guy wants out, I don't necessarily want him hanging around either. So maybe it's best for everybody that we just part company."

Chris:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Speaker 3:

Angi's list is now Angi and caring for your home just got easier. Whether you need help with routine maintenance or a dream remodel. Angi makes it easy to see reviews, compare quotes, and connect with top local pros who can get the job done right. Plus, you can see upfront pricing and instantly book hundreds of projects, no phone tag. Just the work you need done at a time that works for you. Angi's got your to-do list covered from start to finish. Book your next home project today at angi.com. That's A-N-G-I.com.

Chris:

Welcome back to our conversation. You must be the world's best quitter. You know what I mean? You quit one job to take you back, quit another job. I'm like, all right, I'm not going to break you over this because I can also imagine this person being really upset. They've gone through a long process and they have, as you said, there's a real problem here. And it was just a relief to be able to bring you in. "Finally, I can move on to the next thing, but now we're back to ground zero, back to the starting gate here."

Anthony:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:

And that sucks. I don't want to do that. But I also can understand why. They're like, "You know what, it's been a week. It's best to part now before we get too deep into the systems and everything, and then now we have to undo all of that and bring someone else in and onboard him. It's a clean start." Right? Do you think the way that you quit, that for whatever crazy reason you wanted to come back, that they would accept you back?

Anthony:

To that place?

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

I would be surprised if they said, "Yeah. Okay." I think for a very different role, they might be okay with it, but it would be a lot of conversation and I think they would have to really, really have a hard time finding somebody else.

Chris:

Yeah. I get you. So we talked a little bit about when you have some unspoken concerns or anxiety or misgivings about what's happening in your work life, you should bring it up. But if we're talking about going to work for someone else, what kind of lessons can we learn before you accept the job offer? What kind of knowledge would you share with a younger Anthony and say to yourself, "Before you take that job, ask yourself these questions."

Anthony:

Hmm. Maybe one of the first things I would ask is, "Okay, there are certain things that you're struggling with right now. And there's a reason why you're open to the idea of leaving. Have you had the conversations that would allow you to address some of these concerns with the people that you're currently working with, especially when you already enjoy them? Because if the answer is no, then maybe before you take the drastic step of going somewhere else, basically starting from scratch, to at least make an honest effort to resolve what's not working for you in your current situation."

Chris:

Okay. Couple things I want to warn people about is because I've been on the side of the employer longer than I've been on the side of the employee, by a wide margin. Something you want to do is to be really clear about what it is that you truly want. I think in personal relationships, if you've had the most amazing partner in your life and she's a terrible cook, the next relationship that you're going to find, she's going to be amazing cook, and she's going to be terrible at everything else.
We get blindsided about what we're leaving, because we assume this is the way all relationships are. So if your previous partner was very sweet and took care of you and was generous and kind and thoughtful, all kind, that person was a terrible cook. Just kind of be clear about what it is that you truly truly want and what you're willing to give up, to get what it is that you want.
And then you want to be clear that in the interview process, it's not just them interviewing you. You have to interview them. It's a fit. And it's like a long term relationship. Like any long term relationship, it has to work out for both people and if you solve their problem, but they don't solve your problem, you're right back to square one.
And so this is where you want to say, "Describe to me what you see me doing on a day to day basis. What's the typical day look like for you, ideally?" And then they should describe it to you. And if you're unclear about something or you think they're waxing poetic on the job, trying to sell you something, I think you need to say, "But what would be the potential downsides to this?" Ask yourself and ask it out loud and try to run through scenarios.
That's what my business coach Kim McLaren has taught me all these years is, we can talk about the abstract, but once you say, "Tell me what it would be like, actually, what you would do? Take me through a typical day." And then it starts to paint a picture and then you have to use your imagination and say, "Oh, that doesn't sound interesting". And be brave enough to say, "Oh, I might have gotten the wrong idea about this job. Can I ask you another question?"
"In my mind, I was hoping to do this, but it sounds like I'm going to do that. And if that's not acceptable, it's good for us to know now, before I accept this offer." Right? And just be really clear and in some form of radical transparency, because it's like, you're saying you're nuptials. So it's time to be clear. Get all the things out of the closet and just present them. So you don't have to worry somebody's going to discover this concern of yours later on.
Okay. Well I'm glad everything has worked out well for you. You're back, six months, presumably you're doing more of what you want, less of what you don't. Also, this might be an assumption, you're making more money than you used to be?

Anthony:

I'm not.

Chris:

Oh, interesting. Okay. So how did that conversation go?

Anthony:

Well, so I guess even initially, the idea of leveraging this other offer was not something I was thinking about, because it wasn't about the money necessarily. It was about ... the extra money was a nice thing, definitely. So whenever I went back, they offered to bring me back at the same rate that I was at. And that was fine with me.
Maybe it was a missed opportunity to have that conversation about more compensation, but it wasn't really, at that point, about the compensation for me. I loved that company, the organization and everything, I was just struggling with some of the finer points of my role in it.
And it felt wrong to use that as a way to have a conversation about money when money wasn't the issue, necessarily. Yes. And so, I'll be curious what you think about that. Was that a missed opportunity? Because I know you like that money.

Chris:

I do like that money. Well, I don't think you did anything wrong. I think it's wonderful that you kind of just got to do over. Like, "Let's just pretend this never happened." And so there's no misgivings because the person, your boss, could now torture you and say, "Yeah, I'll take you back. We'll see now." Right? "Now that you tasted what it's like out there, you come back."
But usually, if I'm not talking about you, I'm just going to talk about generically speaking. The best way that you can get more money is to leave a job. It's sucks to say that because the company sees you entering in a certain position and they move you up and they just slowly move you up, as they're supposed to, as you acquire more responsibilities. Little title changes happen and pay increases happen.
But some other company sees that experience that you have and they want to buy that experience, because it didn't cost them anything for you to learn it, so they'll pay a premium for it. Let's just use round numbers here. Let's say you're making a hundred thousand dollars a year and some other the company comes along.
Well, they also know that they can't offer you the same thing. So they're buying your experience, but they also can't entice you with the same offer unless they're like, "Just work two days a week and have ultimate creative freedom, do whatever you want." Those are other ways of alternative compensation. So they have to offer you more.
So they're going to offer you something and then you take it. And the other company's like, "Oh my God. Now we have to assess the impact of this person no longer being here." And then they have to think about how many people they have to hire. And they start doing their math. They're like, "Ooh, this going to hurt us."
And so it's not until that you're gone, that they actually miss you and appreciate the value. Of course, if you do nothing, when you leave, they're like, "Thank God that dead beat is gone." And when you come back, typically, you can negotiate for a better salary, because now they've realized what they're missing.
I'm not necessarily trying to just leverage one deal versus the other because I want more money, but it's not until you're gone that they can feel that. So in a different scenario, you'd probably handle this slightly differently. You'd call them up and say, "You know what, boss, I'm not loving where I'm at, for a number of different reasons. X, Y, and Z. I don't know if you filled that position, but I'd entertain coming back. And if you're open to that, I'd like to talk to you about my salary requirements and my job responsibilities."
And then they have to make an assessment, like "Yeah, cool. We want you back. And you know, wasn't that long, but we realize how much of a headache this has been just thinking about how to replace you." And so they also know certain things. Usually you have to use a head hunter. Head hunter's going to find someone with your qualifications. And typically head hunters get paid 20% on top of the salary.
So even if they hired someone back for the exact same amount of money they were paying you, a hundred thousand dollars, they're going to have to pay 20%, 20K, to a head hunter, so they're out 120 K and then they're going to roll the dice to see if this person works out, which is a huge gamble, so they're adding risk on top of that.
And so they're weighing all these kinds of things in their mind. So when you come back, they're like, "Oh my God, this is the best news ever. I'd love to have you come back," and then you would go and do that. It's not about leveraging. It's just about making sure everybody feels that we see each other a certain way.
"I contribute certain things, in my mind, do you see the same things? If not, let's have a conversation about it." But I think in this case it was just one of those ones where you woke up out of a bad fever dream from COVID and you're like, "I want back," and you just hit reset and it's nice to be able to do that.

Anthony:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. Huge relief.

Chris:

Right. Okay. Let's talk about the other changes in your life now. I think last time we talked a lot about this other thing, the sketch notes.

Anthony:

Sure. Yeah.

Chris:

Where's that going?

Anthony:

So well, it's going pretty good. So the last time we talked, I had been dipping my toe into it, figuring out, "What am I going to do with this skill that I really enjoy?" And since then I've had the opportunity to do it a lot more, do it for other people, have it seen by other people and then approached to do more of it. So it's moving right along. I'm doing a lot more of it. And I'm currently working on a course to get that all squared away, that launches in December.

Chris:

Wonderful. And I want to say that it's not just something that you enjoy. You're actually very talented at doing this thing, because you're a combination of illustration, typography, hand lettering, and your sense of graphic design and layout are actually really beautiful. Now, I didn't invite you to be on the podcast to give you a hard time, but I'm going to give you a hard time now.

Anthony:

Oh.

Chris:

The volume of work that you're doing, in terms of the sketch notes, has not been super consistent.

Anthony:

Mm.

Chris:

And it's one of those things where, you know what? If you want to break through and you want to be a force within an industry and establish that kind of domain expertise. I think you have to be a lot more consistent. I see you go in little spurts and then it just goes quiet for a long time and then another spurt. Why is that?

Anthony:

So I think part of that is I haven't taken the step to make it my focus. So in between the sketch notes, there's also a ton of design that I'm doing because I still moonlight, I still freelance. And I'd say for every sketch note thing that I work on, either for somebody else or for myself, there's probably 10 design projects in there.
And they generally take priority up until recently. And the, the ratio is getting better, especially as I do more work and I show more work then it sort of, it's a positive feedback loop. And then I do more. But the good old fashioned design has been the bread and butter for what I'm doing, so maybe it's, "Do I need to just buckle down and focus more on it, or just carve out more time to do it, even when I have a pretty full design project load?"

Chris:

I think it's one of these things where you have to scale it to the time in which you can do and the amount of energy you have. So if you're grinding away on your full-time job, and then you have your side hustle, there's not a lot left for you to give. It's like, you can't squeeze blood out of a stone kind of thing.
But if you say, "You know what, every night I spend one hour, because it gives me joy." Not because you have to, "Because it gives me joy and I'm going to just put that into the world." That means you have to scale back the level of complexity and how intricate these things can be and how many different iterations you try.
What people don't understand oftentimes is they are, "Oh, he just draws from his brain. It's done." No, there's a lot of working and reworking. I've seen you do this several times because it doesn't feel right. As a designer, illustrator should, but maybe you have to give yourself certain rules and parameters. I'm going to take a word or phrase or one thing I heard today and I'm just going to translate that into visual and then I'm going to move on.
And so it's something about that, having that kind of discipline. And then couple hundred posts later, you're going to wake up with a brand new life, a new career and all kinds of demand for the kinds of things you do, but it has to be done on a more consistent basis, I think.

Anthony:

I hundred percent agree. Absolutely.

Chris:

Okay.

Anthony:

So you want to see more work? Is that what you're saying?

Chris:

I want to see more work. It's beautiful work. And I see there's a person who listens to the two Bob's podcasts with Blair Ens and David C. Baker. Every time they listen to it, they do a little sketch note and they wind up using that as artwork for the blog page.
I'm not sure at this point how much traffic goes to their blog page, but it's something and it's worthwhile because the person's already listening. They doodle while listening and it helps them to reinforce what they've learned and having an additional platform because David C. Baker and Blair Ens, I think, they attract a high level business audience. And so if you keep seeing this work and they credit the person who's doing it, I think it's a good way to kind of just put it out there.

Anthony:

Hmm.

Chris:

Are you aware of this?

Anthony:

That's a great idea. Yes. Yeah. I have seen it pop on LinkedIn. I was like, "Oh you."

Chris:

Yeah. Right. I was like, "Where's Anthony?" That's what I'm thinking. You know? And I think you have a unique style that's different than everyone else's and that's not to say the other person's not unique. It's just, I see what you do. And I want to encourage you to do that.
So oftentimes the pressing things, the way that we keep the lights on the food in the pantry and all that kind of stuff, it seems to overwhelm us and that's the only thing that we do. We serve that master first and only feed our own internal master if we have anything left in the gas tank. And so I think we have to make sure we prioritize some part of us, so that that part never dies.
It could just also be that during the week, work week, you don't do anything. You do your job, you do your work and you rest. But one day in the weekend, this is how I like to do things. So I have a family day. It's like, whatever the family wants to do, I'm a hundred percent connected, plugged in. And then I have my personal care day.
I get to exercise. I get to lounge. I get to binge watch or I get to draw and read. I do whatever it is I want. And I feel no guilt about it. Everybody already knows this is the schedule. Of course, I'm not so rigid that we can't swap or flip dates, but I can't go on too many weeks without having my personal care day. And when I don't, I feel it. I feel it in every sense.
I don't have that enthusiasm. I don't have that spark. My brain feels like it's in a fog. I need to do it. And I remember also one last reference to David C. Baker. He's like, "When I don't write I'm in a bad mood." So writing for him is some form of self therapy. And so I don't know if sketch notes and drawing is your version of that, but if it is, you got to be, you've got to do it to keep yourself healthy.

Anthony:

That sounds a hundred percent right. And sometimes I feel like I just need to give myself permission to not be working on something that somebody else has asked me to do. Whether it's a job thing or a freelance project thing, just getting to just do my own thing. And to remember why I even got started in the whole creative profession anyway, and just spend that time.
But it's just allowing myself slow down. So yeah, I think building some kind of routine in there, and what I've learned about myself is that I'm a creature of habit. So if I set up a routine, like your routine where you have the day where you do this, the day where you do that? That's something that really appeals to me because then it's not something I have to think about. It's something that I already planned for ahead of time.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

I like that.

Chris:

The other idea I want to share with you is to be able to make one piece of art, but to be able to leverage it and to multiply it. So we have these drawings that you do, I think you use procreate, right?

Anthony:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:

And then it lives as a static moment and sometimes you'll chop into it. So you can see a little more detail, so you appreciate the things, right? As part of a carousel, have these things been animated before?

Anthony:

I had, when Melinda and I were working on a collaboration a couple years back, somebody who was following us, Kalaco, he animated one of them, because I always try to include something that feels like motion in it. And he took it to the next step and just added the motion. And I thought it was fantastic.

Chris:

Yeah. So here's what I'm thinking. Oftentimes, you're taking sketch notes based on podcasts or things that you're watching or listening to. So we know from our own social media channels, reels on Instagram and shorts on YouTube are the way that you grow your account really, really fast.
I don't see anyone being able to do this because it's just too much energy, effort, and talent involved. But if you were to take a one minute clip, then do the sketch notes based on that, things that you're already doing. And then you give it to someone like this person who can then take the layers and really bring it to life and animate it across the one minute thing, based on your artwork, both of you can grow together. And then you put those things out there and those things can get hundreds of thousands of views.
And then they become like its own unique art form and expression, so it begins with listening, interpretation, translation into illustrations and topography, and then it starts to move. And I think with a little bit of motion work? It's like one of those ones where somebody takes a character and they just have them wiggle a little bit, so they feel alive?
It could just be a little bit of that. So that the word business advice just kind of jiggles a little bit and then it pans down and it pulls back out, it dollies out and it swings over the whole canvas, rotates and it's like, "Oh, here's the next idea." And it keeps going. I can see that being really, really popular.

Anthony:

That sounds intriguing.

Chris:

Yeah. And if you exercise a lot of discipline, like, "We are only allowed to work on it for this period of time." and you know, something that's happening is that both Instagram and YouTube are paying creators for views on their videos. So there's way to monetize it. I don't think it's a lot of money now, but it will be.
And right now, just speaking on my own experience for YouTube shorts, they send us a bonus check somewhere between four to $700 a month. And that's not a lot to do anything, but it's enough to like, say, "Hey, somebody's recognizing this." And what did they do is they take up their entire budget for shorts and they chop it up between all the different creators who are able to move the needle. And it's kind of cool. So just something that you think about.

Anthony:

No, I love that. And the other thing I love about it is something we've talked about before is just the nature of the work that I do. It's not something that I could delegate very easily, but the animation piece is.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

And so I guess finding that opportunity to just add motion and share it in fun new ways.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Bring on somebody else to come up with.

Chris:

Yep.

Anthony:

Fantastic.

Chris:

Now there's lots of different ways to do this because you could quite literally, and I even hate to say this, but you could hire someone on Fiver and pay them a few hundred bucks and say, "Look, I'm not expecting a masterpiece. I just want it to move and I have a certain idea about it." And you pay them a couple hundred bucks.
But each one of those posts gets 20,000, 30,000 views? That's actually worth it for you as you're building up your brand, because I can also see you taking this and doing murals out of this. I can see you doing limited edition book covers and slip jackets and things for different notebook companies, or illustrating for authors.
This is the next thing I want to talk about, which is, sometimes we don't have the free time to work on our art and our personal project, so we kind of force, we bend the current of the river to where we want it to go. So next client comes to you, you're you're going to say to him, "I I'm going to accept this, but only if I can do it this way," and then you're going to get them to say no. And then the person's going to say, "Yes," and then you do that. And the next person's going to say, "We want that thing."
Michael Beirut shared this project. I think you and I talked about this before. I think we did, but he was showing the packaging for a company that ships nuts to you. I think it's called No Nuts. And it's just really kind of fun identity branding system them. And there's like topography all over the boxes and it's the labels and the shipping tape.
And I think I'm going to borrow a line from Superman. This is a job for Anthony Banks, right? So if this is a job for Superman, this is where I think if you had more visibility on the things that you're doing, then you can make the side hustle your passion project. Because you have too many jobs, father, husband, team member, moonlighting dude, personal projects. It's too many things to juggle. So we try to merge those things together. And then we get, I think we find, in the overlap, our superpower.

Anthony:

I love that, because you're right. There's so many things that I'm doing right now, but to be able to stack them and get them done at the same time, that sounds phenomenal. Maybe that's the only way that I'm going to get it all done.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

If I can find some way to start combining those things, maybe I need to teach my kids how to animate?

Chris:

Hey, are they old enough to do that?

Anthony:

I think they animate on their own right now.

Chris:

Oh, Hey.

Anthony:

They're dad's boys. For sure.

Chris:

Let's do it. Get them on it. Sometimes having the opportunity to work with dad is enough to kill the whole passion. So be careful. Let's be real. Right. My son is like, "Oh dad, I need to be a better designer." I'm like, " You know, I have the topography course." Like, "Nah, I don't want to do that." I'm like, "Okay, you do your own thing."
Eventually they'll come to it. I wanted to chat with you about one other quick thing. Let's talk about life changes. You've moved. Where are you? What prompted the move?

Anthony:

Well, so last time that we talked, I lived in the capital of Nebraska, which was Lincoln, Nebraska. I worked in Omaha, which was the largest city in Nebraska and they're about 50 miles apart.

Chris:

Ooh.

Anthony:

So I would commute each way, which would be about, let's say an hour.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

Each way, every day. And you know, having lived in Southern California for many years, being in my car for long periods of time was nothing strange to me. So it was nothing. It was no big deal. It was like Southern California without the traffic. Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

So then whenever I accepted the new job, at that point, it was like, "Okay, I guess working an hour way from where we live is just going to be the way that it is. So maybe we need to think about living in the same town where I work." Because at this point, I can share with you, Katie, my wife, she is now home full time.
That's something that we had talked about last time. So she's home full time. And the kids, whenever everything was going down with COVID and uncertainty and everything, we brought them home for homeschool the last part of that year to get them through, because they were really struggling with the remote learning and everything and they enjoyed it. My wife enjoyed it. And so they just kept going.
So now the boys are home too. They're homeschooled. Katie teaches them. And so suddenly I was the only person who had anywhere to be, and I had to be an hour away from home. So it made no sense. And we'd been in our home for about 10 years. It was our first home and we were starting to feel like it was a little bit too small for us. So suddenly it was like, "Okay," some casual scanning on Zillow turned into a couple of open houses, turned into an offer, turned into everything very quickly.

Chris:

Yeah.

Anthony:

And this summer we finally moved and now I've got two extra hours every day for whatever, whether that's sleeping or working or anything. And I think that's made a huge impact just on my life, very positive.

Chris:

It's not often that I can sit back and tell a story about the positive impact of COVID, but maybe your story is for a number of different reasons. COVID sends the kid's home for remote learning and it sucks. And the reason why it sucks in most cases is because teachers who are not prepared to teach online, have no idea the kind of energy that you have to bring, the way that you teach has to be different. It's not just literally turning on a camera or your laptop and saying, "Let's continue on."
If you do that, then you're missing a whole point of it, the opportunity that presents itself inside the obstacle, right? And then you make the decision, "You know what? You stay at home, you teach the boys and they're homeschooled." They have a greater connection to all of you. And it's just like being around them and being able to see them grow up. I think it's a very precious thing to have.
And that allows you the freedom then, because it's the whole domino effect then, live and work closer together. So you're not spending two hours of your life every single day, just in the commute. And the last part is when you came down with COVID yourself, it gave you this kind of clarity because you can't do anything. You don't have any energy, so you have to think.
And I think as many people I've spoken to before, I'm not saying that you were in a life death situation, but you're in a place where your health wasn't good. It gives you perspective. My friend, Alex Preston was literally on his kind of death bed, contemplating his life. And he is like, "I don't want to go out this way. Whatever energy I have, I'm just going to put it into my creativity." And allowed him to not only have the will to live, but it gave him a company, the business and a whole place to pour his creativity into.
And so sometimes the cloud does have a silver lining and it seemed like you found it and I'm just thrilled for you. I'm happy we're able to catch up and kind of see what's going on. Let's plant the seeds for the next couple of years so that we end this on a cliff hanger.

Anthony:

Okay.

Chris:

Okay. So let's make some predictions then. Where are you going to be in three years? And then we'll have to do the follow up to this.

Anthony:

Oh, shucks. Where am I going to be? I foresee that I am still going to be at the company I'm at, because it's become a place that I want to be. And I get to do what I want to do there. I foresee that I will be the most well known visual note taker on the internet, bar none, because I am just posting every single day copious amounts of content. I don't know, what else is there? I mean, I guess I'm still healthy.

Chris:

And your boys are now working with you, for you, animating, creating content, part of the team.

Anthony:

You know what? Absolutely. They've already expressed an interest in, because you know, kids nowadays, it's all about YouTubers. It's not about regular celebrities. It's about YouTubers. And I would foresee that by that point either I'm helping them with their productions or they're helping me with mine. And that is fantastic.

Chris:

Isn't that an awesome thing that we can live in a time and age where your young children can come and work with you and participate in understanding what work and life is about and maybe having opportunities to generate their own money, so that they can have responsibilities and set them forward for life. Like, "This is how you sustain yourself and do things that you love and are passionate about."

Anthony:

Absolutely. And I think the other thing too, that I don't take for granted, is that they're interested in the type of things that I do. You know, if I was, I don't know, an architect and they had no interest in architecture, it's like, "Well then we don't relate in that way." But they're like, "Hey, I like making videos. I like animating stuff and all these different things and video games."
I couldn't ask for a more open door to get in there and do things with them that we both enjoy. And if anything, I've learned a ton from them because they don't have any of the hangups about the quality of stuff. They don't care. They just want to turn the camera on. They'll shoot 10 minutes of dead air and they don't care. They still want to post it. And that's refreshing. It's a good reminder. It's like, just stop overthinking it and just make it and post it and move on to the next thing.

Chris:

Right? They have yet to learn about the fears of not meeting your own expectations. And there's that unbridled creativity where they're just thrilled that they can publish something and like point to it. "I did that. I made that, Dad." Very cool.

Anthony:

Absolutely.

Chris:

Now you forgot one very important prediction. And before I tell you what that prediction is, I want to just point out that I like how big you are with your ambitious thing and you just put it out into the universe. You know, people are going to listen to this and we're going to hold you accountable.
So you said, "I want to be the best known sketch note artists out there, bar none." And I love that as part of your three year goal. The really cool thing about this is, and I want to emphasize this, because people might misinterpret this, that it's not so important that you achieve your goal, but the person you become in the pursuit of the goal.
So you might not be the best known person, but you're going to be putting out content on a much more regular basis. And that's just good for your soul. It's good for your profile. It's good for your reputation. It's good for all these things and who knows what kind of opportunities open up for you. So it's good for us to have big goals. It's important for us to take action. It's good for us to share in a public way so that we're go to be accountable. It's a public declaration.
It's also known as a social contract, we agree. And now when you're like, "I don't want to do it today." You're going to remember, this podcast is going to go out there and people are going to be like, "So Anthony where's that content." So I love that. I love it. Okay. The one big thing you forgot to mention, I'm most hurt that you didn't see is, three years from now, somewhere between now and then you and I are back salmon fishing. You're going to lose a bet again.

Anthony:

Yes we're are.

Chris:

And I'm going to be the fish master once again. Those are good times. You know, I remember that and just doing what we did together. It was really fun. I really, since this very extended kind of lockdown, quarantine life we've been having, I haven't been able to get out and I miss those things. I miss being on the water and just having nothing but nature around us. I'm so looking forward to doing something like that. Hope that you can join us next time.

Anthony:

Count on it. I wouldn't miss it.

Chris:

Excellent. Anthony Banks. Thanks very much for doing this. If people want to find out more about your sketch notes or your work, where should they go?

Anthony:

The best place is to find me on Instagram @ARGbanks.

Chris:

ARG banks. It's like a pirate.

Anthony:

ARG banks.

Chris:

ARG banks. Okay. So if you do like his work, give him a follow and we will continue on following his journey to see where this goes. Thank you.

Anthony:

Thanks so much, Chris, always a pleasure. I'm Anthony Banks, and you're listening to the future.

Greg:

Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The future podcast is hosted by Chris To and produced by me, Greg. Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode and thank you to Adam Sandborn for our intro music.
If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on apple podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me, head over to thefuture.com/heyChris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode.
If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefuture.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you next time.

More episodes like this