Chris Do:

Getting that first client, that first big break is very, very difficult, but be committed, uncompromising, and wanting to get that result. It doesn't mean that everybody that has a goal and is committed to it is going to get it because I think they haven't put in the work. The greatest investment that you're ever going to make in your life. It's not in gold, it's not in crypto or web3. It's in yourself. "Work hard on your job and you have a career," as Jim Rohn said, "Work on your personal development and you'll have a life.

Now, I've been getting this question a lot about, well, how do you get your first gig? Because it seems like people are stuck at the gate, the gun has gone off, everyone else is taken off on the track, and you're still inside the gate. Like, come on, feet. Don't fail me now. Let's go, let's go, let's go. So I want to take us back in the way, way back machine. I want to take you back, Mo, to the first time you got your very first lead. I want to examine it. I want to unravel it and unpack it for our audience. And then I will also share with everyone how I'm able to get leads, how I'm able to start new businesses. And hopefully you can learn something from it. Okay, Mo. What's the first professional creative gig that you got?

Mo Ismail:

My first professional gig was actually doing photography for a boutique fashion store in my city.

Chris Do:

How do they know that you did this?

Mo Ismail:

So this is going to be a good story actually. And when you make me think about this, it makes me realize how we tend to complicate things when we're so far removed from the beginning of the journey. So I started my journey right after teaching college, after getting my master's a few years. So after my master's, I taught college for a few years, public speaking in particular, but I just wasn't... The fulfillment was not there at the time. I did not like the academic structure and how that's where I could only allocate the best of me. And I was always a theater kid, I was a rapper, beatboxer. So I was always a creative. So I personally started making vlogs at the time on Snapchat. So very Casey Neistat, Peter McKinnon style of vlogs, a lot of them promoting different things that I was either doing, promoting businesses that I like to go to and whatnot.

And from those vlogs, I built a relationship with my former business partner, Christopher Franklin. And Chris is just an amazing photographer, an amazing cinematographer. He's very gifted, great eye. And me and him were working at Best Buy at the time. And I went up to him and I was like, "Yo, I want whatever you're doing for people for me. I want head shots. I want the whole thing. I will pay you for your work. I respect your work," all of that kind of stuff. And from that, he was like... He was taken aback. He was like, "Oh my God, you respect my work, all of this, you want to pay me?" Because we were still young, all of us in college and why not. And from there, we built a relationship and we started vlogging together. And I asked him, quite frankly, "I want to shadow you. I want, for lack of a better term, be your apprentice." Because I didn't understand the gear at the time because I was only filming on my phone.

So I was like, "I want to shadow you." He was doing wedding photography, wedding videography at the time. And I did just that. He was the one who had that boutique as a client. And I went with him as his secondhand basically on a video shoot and photography shoot that we did in New Orleans. And it was a great hit. A lot of rapport building with that boutique. And then from there, he used me for his overflow. So just by shadowing him, learned the craft in my own studying, YouTube university, and just my natural eye for the camera. And from there, got the first client. But if I had not built a relationship with him and really got my foot in understanding the craft by watching him and what he was doing, I think my journey to getting my first client would've been very different. So that's how I got the first one, first first one.

Chris Do:

So did you tell me you snaked a client from your friend?

Mo Ismail:

No, no, no, I didn't snake... [inaudible 00:04:22] you do that thing. You do that thing. No, I didn't snake a client. I got his overflow. Let's be very clear. I got his overflow. So when he wasn't available to do the shoots for these boutiques, they called your boy in, hashtag Mo Ismail.

Chris Do:

Okay. So for people who may not know the word overflow...

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

... describe that in a different way.

Mo Ismail:

Yeah. So Chris was a solo shooter, solo videographer, solo photographer, so he only had so much capacity, bandwidth time, however you want to put it. So he could only take so many shoots in the span of one week. And at a certain point, he was becoming very well known in the city. He's still very well known in the city, and the demand for him had gone up. So he didn't have the bandwidth to do the photography of the boutiques. And he was going really heavily into weddings because I was a more profitable gig for him. And from there, when he didn't have the capacity to do it, he called me up and he was like, "Hey, the boutique needs a photographer. I trust you to do it at the level that I'm doing it. And would you want to take this gig on?" And we went from there.

Chris Do:

Okay. So it was a referral from a mentor?

Mo Ismail:

Correct.

Chris Do:

If I'm to break these down and strip away the names, the facts and the figures, so to speak, it's basically you worked with somebody that you admired, you put yourself in a position so that they would recognize you as someone who can contribute to that.

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

And then based on that, learning the craft, develop enough competence, and then therefore earning confidence from your mentor, such that when they couldn't take on that work anymore for a number of different reasons, scheduling conflicts, rates have gone up, shift and focus, things like that, you were the natural recommend. And so it was a layup for you. You didn't really have to do a lot because the client was saying, "I'm interested in buying." [inaudible 00:06:05] go with my boy. And that was that.

Mo Ismail:

Yeah, 100%. And putting yourself in the right, I guess position and environment to be seen as a qualified person to even be referred to during that area. Yeah.

Chris Do:

Okay. And how much was that job for? And how did it go?

Mo Ismail:

This is so funny, going back to memory lane. I think it was... If my memory serves me correctly, it was like by the hour. And I'm pretty sure I was $50 by the hour, and we would do a two to three hour shoot. And then edits, it was per 25 photos, but this particular client just took all the raw. So all in, I think per shoot, anywhere between 150 to 250.

Chris Do:

Total?

Mo Ismail:

Total.

Chris Do:

So not a ton of money.

Mo Ismail:

At the time, no. I guess not, relative to... I mean, I'm not going to be not a ton of money when there's people that are like, "I would fucking kill for that gig." But yeah, relative to now.

Chris Do:

Well, even at that time, was that a lot of money for you at that time?

Mo Ismail:

No. No.

Chris Do:

Okay.

Mo Ismail:

No. It was cool to be making that money independent of a nine to five though, even though it wasn't a lot of money at the time.

Chris Do:

Yeah. Well, two, 300 bucks in your pocket's not bad any day of the week.

Mo Ismail:

That's a fact.

Chris Do:

Right? Makes you do a lot. That's lunch for many days. It keeps the lights on for a little bit longer. Okay. Let's distill this into an actionable strategy now.

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

In a very different place. How many years has it been?

Mo Ismail:

Five.

Chris Do:

Five years since that first moment?

Mo Ismail:

Yeah. I think so.

Chris Do:

Okay.

Mo Ismail:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

You moved pretty quick. All right. So when you say I was really young back then, I was like, no, you're still young now.

Mo Ismail:

It may have been six, because I think I was freelancing in '17.

Chris Do:

Hey, don't matter. Don't try and stretch it. It doesn't matter. It's not like...

Mo Ismail:

It's not 1995. You know what I'm saying?

Chris Do:

Right. It's not like you've been doing this thing for like 28 years.

Mo Ismail:

No, no, not 28.

Chris Do:

And I want people to just also register it for a minute here. I've been running my business for 28 years, so 1995, 2023. I think that's 28 if my math is right. And Mo, you're barely 28? Are you even 28 yet.

Mo Ismail:

Bro, I hit 30 in January. We 30 now. But yes, your business career is as long as my lifespan.

Chris Do:

Yeah.

Mo Ismail:

To put that in perspective.

Chris Do:

Basically, I've been running a business before Moe was able to speak, unless he was an early talker, which I imagine he might have been. Okay. Just put that in context. So I think we attacked this in a couple different ways because I think there's a lot to learn. All right. So Mo, five years, six years out, how could you replicate this exact strategy in order for you to generate leads now? Because everybody's like, "How do I get lead now? I can't go back and shadow a dude and work for no money. I'm not in that place anymore. I just can't afford to." Okay. What, if anything, could you use today in real way, not just like some fictional hypothetical thing?

Mo Ismail:

No, this won't be fictional because this... So for those that are religious followers of the channel, you know that me and Chris went into business, not this Chris Do, my Chris Franklin, we went into business together. So after that apprenticeship, I was still vlogging pretty heavily, and me and him were then vlogging together. So before we knew the term, because we just wanted to be influencers and creatives, this was actually content marketing, not directly with the intention of getting leads, but it was content marketing, meaning we put content out into the space, people saw it, and then they asked us questions. So the way we even got into business together is we had a catalog of vlogs that we were putting out, and a local business reached out to us and was like, "We want what you're doing for us. And we actually want to fund you. We want to build a whole marketing business around y'all's talent for doing this."

So if I were to recreate this for somebody now, and you said they don't have the ability to shadow someone and not work for a lot of money, and this may go against the grain, I would actually have something that is still supporting you financially, number one. Because if you're worried about making money, it's going to be somewhat challenging to get really good at the craft of the thing. So have something that's securing your money now, nine to five. If it's a side hustle that doesn't take a lot, or you have a sugar mama or a wonderful spouse who's just taking care of you. And then what I would do in tandem is since you can't shadow somebody for free, since you have a job or something that's making you money, find somebody that's doing exactly what you want to do, exactly. Shadow them and best understand the craft, and ask them questions for why they do what they do, the way they do it around their business and all the other things.

While that's happening, you should be simultaneously creating content around the things that you're learning, around the things that you're creating and putting it out into the public, and experimenting, or sorry, failing publicly. So I'm not going to say these vlogs were the best. I'm not going to say they were even Casey Neistat or Peter McKinnon's standard, but we got better over time, and the right people started seeing that, and then they requested our service, which is traditional inbound. So I'll be doing those three in tandem. And then as you do that, you should start asking that person that you're shadowing if you can now get paid or do some of the work around their business, and continue to build your craft and build your expertise without the pressure of all the things that come from running a business, unless that's just what you like to do and you want to be dealing with accounting and operations and customer service. Because when you're just building your craft, you need to get really familiar with the craft and really good at it.

And the best way to do that, if you intend to then jump off into a business, is to do it under someone who's already doing it successfully. So that would be my trifecta, have something that's feeding you to pay the bills shadow under somebody who's excellent in what they do, and have built something successful that you would want to emulate with your own flavor and style. Be content marketing as you're doing that. And once all those come together, then you can start pitching in addition to your content marketing. So once you've done that, it's like, "Hey, I offer this service. If you are someone who is interested, please come into my world and I'll be happy to see if I can help you." So that would be honestly, the three things that I would do if I was just starting out.

Chris Do:

Thanks for answering that. You answered the wrong question, but I like that.

Mo Ismail:

Did I? No, I didn't. What you are talking about. Do you enjoy giving me... I feel like you enjoy it. There's this level of fulfillment...

Chris Do:

No, I prefer not to.

Mo Ismail:

... of picking at me.

Chris Do:

I prefer not to pick at you, but you make it so pickable.

Mo Ismail:

All right.

Chris Do:

Okay. The question I asked you is, given the success that you had with this one component of it, which I don't think yet you understand fully, how could you replicate that today in your business right now? Not to recreate the entire process, but what you did was you went to a rival or a mentor, built a relationship with them and picked up their overflow work.

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

That's a real strategy.

Mo Ismail:

Oh, how I would do that now? I'd go do that for another... I'd go to an agency who is credible in the business, who knows what they're doing in something that is adjacent to what I'm doing, and honestly, we'd probably either pitch a project that we can help them with the clients that they're working with, and then so we can get in the door, or I would do it for free in the beginning and let them know, "Hey, I exist for what you need if what I have," well, I would know if what I have helps them, "to better serve your clients." And then just continue to nurture that relationship, if I had to do that right now.

Chris Do:

Okay. I'm going to tell you to do something right now.

Mo Ismail:

Okay.

Chris Do:

Because all of us could use higher quality leads...

Mo Ismail:

Sure.

Chris Do:

... with the kinds of clients we'd like to work with. The first thing I'm going to ask you to do, it should not be adjacent. It should be literally what you're doing now, but just at a higher level. So everybody gets your pens out. Make a list of five companies that are doing what you do at the level in which you'd like to be doing it at now. They have better clients, they have better budgets, they have more creative freedom, whatever it is, make a list of those five people, five companies. Then what I want you to do is to stalk them everywhere on social, follow them everywhere. Listen to all of their podcasts, follow them on Instagram, on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on TikTok, and do your best to engage with them in a meaningful way, such that over a period of time, they get to know who you are and become naturally curious about you.

You just need to do that. At some point, if you're able to build some rapport, when it becomes natural for you to do so, not obviously on the first interaction, that's a terrible time to do it, say, "I'm a young and up and coming, I'd like to say, version of you. If there's ever an opportunity where you get too much work and there's overflow, I'd love to be able to service your clients. I'd be willing to pay for those leads. Please let me know." I'm not trying to make this complicated, Mo. I'm trying to make this as super simple as possible. So can you think of five people who are working with the kinds of clients that you want, that are making the kind of money that you want to make, doing the kind of creative work that you want to make, where you going to actually literally follow this plan? Do you?

Mo Ismail:

I think this is homework for me to do that research and see, is there five just hitters that are executing at the level that I aspire to grow into in serving the people that I aspire to? Yeah, for sure.

Chris Do:

Okay. There's a strategy here, but you got to play along with it. And so you need to first form the intention in your mind, I want to work with people. Then you need to express that intention out into the universe so that people who want to help you, who can help you, will help you. And then you can organically bring them into your circle, your orbit, and then you can build a relationship with them. Okay? This is a really important thing. So a lot of us have dream clients that we'd like to work with. The problem is we aim too high. You just graduated school, you're like, "I'd love to work with Nike. I want to do something for Xbox." And Xbox doesn't know you from a fly on the horse poop. They just don't know. You're just another person out there. So what we want to do is we want to reach a little bit beyond where our hands can grab and start working with them and build a relationship, and then develop some work, and then you just keep reaching a little bit higher.

So we're not going to get to the top floor in one giant step. We're going to get to the top floor by taking one step at a time. You can take a really big step, but it's not going to be like a 30 or 40 foot step up. That's just impossible for humans to do. Okay? So you would just do it like that. I find that one of the most natural ways to sell is just to tell people what it is that you're thinking. If you love a brand, tell them that you love them and express your creativity and say, "I would love to work with you." One of my friends, Andrew [inaudible 00:17:13], he does this project where he does one fictional project every year. And he loves Southwest Airlines. I don't know why, but he does. And so he went through and redesigned all of the touchpoints, and he did this thinking nothing would come of it. The next thing, he's working with Southwest Airlines.

Mo Ismail:

Wild.

Chris Do:

It's how it works.

Mo Ismail:

Wild.

Chris Do:

Okay? This is what you would do. Now I'll show you how I would do this exact same strategy right now, right? So I have to figure out how do I find a rival or vendor or a mentor who has a kind of clients in the body of work that I'd like to work with and say, "I'd like to pick up your overflow clients." Now, I don't have the exact same situation because I don't really have clients, but what I can do is to find people who are in mastermind groups who teach a specific thing that is different than what I teach, and I would like to be able to be in front of their clients...

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

... their members, and say, "If you find what I do valuable, I'd love to see you in my mastermind where I teach people how to develop their brand, how to innovate their business, and how to do it in a fun, creative way." And so now I put that on the universe. Everybody will now know this is what I do. See how that works?

Mo Ismail:

Facts

Chris Do:

Doesn't have to be that complicated. Okay. Any questions on this, Mo?

Mo Ismail:

No, no questions, but I do have a thought here that may take us down a rabbit hole, but I'll say it anyways. There is a level of... And I say this because I've had this experience with someone who was building what I've now built, and I wish they would've played their cards a little differently. Maybe this is a learning opportunity for me. If you were going down this rabbit hole, there is a level of humbling yourself that you have to do to recognize that this is a relationship where, as Chris says, the person with the leads is the most valuable. So your ability to bring value to them, and probably give or take a little bit on the things that you need is important because you are the one who is in need from them. So if that means lowering your rate, that means doing... For me, Chris, you may disagree, doing early onset work, probably pro bono or free to get in the door to build that relationship is something that will be required of you.

And if you feel like, oh my God, I'm not going to be taken advantage of, no, no, no, no, no, that's where humble pie maybe need to be eaten for this to work for you. That's just my thought around that.

Chris Do:

Yeah, let's talk about humility a little bit here. Why do we think we're always above something that we're not? In truth, this is pride at play, that you're not going to get help because you're not able to ask for help. You're not going to get what you want because you're unable to ask for what you want. And if that plan is working for you, again, more power to you. But I just find if we have a more objective centered view of our own selves, not only are we going to project confidence more, but we're actually going to get what it is that we want. If I'm struggling moving a very heavy object and I've got a long ways to go, and someone looks at me struggling and they're like, "Can you use some help?" I would say, "Yes, please. I would really like your help."

And a lot of us were raised to feel guilty about asking for and receiving help. For a lot of different reasons, we think if someone helps me, now I owe them something, and I don't want to owe anybody anything. And that could be the case. It's not the worst thing in the world to actually owe someone a favor because they help you out. It's how our society moves along. So people need to really think about this. What's holding you back from getting what you want? Is it because you're reluctant to ask because it makes you look like you're don't know what you're doing or that you can actually use help? So whenever I want something in life, I just go on the internet and I just ask for it. And you know I've done this many times, Mo.

Mo Ismail:

No, I know. I know firsthand. I know firsthand.

Chris Do:

I just ask because I don't want to be a person who's going to sit around thinking that people will just intuit what it is I want and just magically give it to me because I'm some special being. That's a little too self-centered. That'd just be my take on it.

Mo Ismail:

I'm with you on it.

Chris Do:

All right? Now I'm going to share with people how I got my first clients, or how I get clients every time I shift industries or verticals. It is kind of difficult. All right? And then you listen with the intention of how can I replicate this today for my business and on behalf of our audience. And that way, we'll try to make this as actionable as possible, because it's a big topic, how to get your first client, how to get a big break. All right. I'm going to take you way back. And there's many instances in my life where I got work. And it seemed like work comes to me pretty easily, so it's going to annoy some of you. I just already know it. Okay? So let's just deal with that part.

Okay. My first mini big break was I drew a lot in high school, so I created a small reputation of someone who liked to draw. So word gets around because I was making illustrations for the newspaper staff. And I don't know how they found out, but they were like, "Can you draw this?" I'm like, "Sure." So eventually it gets over to my brother's wrestling coach, my younger brother's wrestling coach, and you're like, what does this have to do with anything? Well, then he said, "Does your brother want to go and work for a friend of mine who runs a silk screening company? He's a designer. This is how I got my introduction into design and production work. I was literally working for this man, tracing his drawings. And I got work, and I got paid 18 bucks an hour back then. In 1991, I was being paid, or 90, 18 bucks an hour, and it's pretty good money if you think about it. Okay, it was a long time ago, everybody.

So let's fast forward a little bit. Now I'm in junior college, I've learned how to use a computer, and I got my first gig from my older brother who went to a business park every day and became friends with people in the business park. He just so happened to meet a guy who writes for a fashion magazine and he said, "Oh, could you use some help with illustration? My little brother does stuff." So my brother sets me up, I go in, I meet with him. And he goes, "Okay, I see your portfolio. I'll give you a shot, kid. I'll pay you some certain amount of money." I said, "Great." I go home stress out of my mind because I don't know how to do fashion illustrations. I go to the bookstore, I buy a bunch of books on fashion illustrations, I trace, I study, and I do my best. They're not great drawings, but they're the best that I can do.

I submit to him, said, "Let me know if these are good enough. I could continue working on it, but this is my skill level right now." He goes, "Great." He paid me. That's how I got work. What you can find out from a couple of these things is if you practice your craft and you are able to get it out into the real world, this is why I say quantity over quality if quality never happens. I'm just doing work. People find out about it. And people in your orbit, your friends and your family and friends of family and friends of friends will let other people know. They're looking out for you. They become unofficial salespeople for you, or reps, and this is really important.

I'll jump forward now. Okay? Now I'm in college, and I established a reputation amongst my classmates that I'm a designer. So photographers who need to create promotional materials for their portfolios to send out to agencies and reps, they lean into me as like, "Can you help me with this?" People who were in the advertising department reached out to me. I think they did this because I had a reputation of being an exceptional designer even in school. So again, the theme of reputation helps. And I say this and I'm repeating this a couple of times because many of you won't work... How do I say this? But your work sucks. It's just not good. It's not even at the level in which I can recommend you, right? So people are like, "Hire me, hire me." And I look at your work, it's like there's a reason why you have to ask people for work, because your work is terrible.

Objectively speaking, it's terrible. And then you say, "Well, Chris, that doesn't help me out at all because if I suck, then are we just doomed never to make any money?" Well, if you keep taking that attitude, yes. So what you need to do is you need to say, "This person's work. I admire a lot, and identify objectively what the gaps are between where you are and where they're at, and do everything in your power to close the gap. I would start by first quite literally copying all of their work, screenshot it, download it, trace over it, try to understand how they think, how they design. Do not show anybody this work. This is practice work. This is not an homage or "inspired by" literally just copy it as faithfully as possible, take measurements, do grids over their work, really understand, because then you'll start to learn this is how they make decisions, and then the next assignment, then you can't try to apply those same principles and that thinking to improve your work. If you do this consistently enough, people will seek you out. That's the bottom line.

The better your work, the less you have to market and sell. If your work is so good, you won't have to market and sell at all. And we're not going to get there on day one, but that's the ultimate goal. Okay. So now I'm looking for opportunities. Well, at school, at art center, they post job opportunities all the time. So people, I assume the school of vets, are able to post, "Need graphic designer help with this." And so I just pull those tickets down, I apply to them, show them my portfolio. I get the work. So work is abundant if you're good and if you're willing to do the work necessary. But so many of us are just sitting there thinking, if I wish it enough, it will happen for me. And I got to tell you something, friends, I've wished to have a six pack for a really long time.

If I don't put in the work and the discipline, it doesn't happen by itself. There's no magic there that's going to happen, right? You actually have to work for what you want. So put in the time. All right? I get out of school. I have an opportunity to showcase some of my work on Adobe's after Effects CD ROM, and I've cut a demo reel together. So that CD ROM goes out, and so that works as my marketing material to generate leads that people are interested. Funny enough, two people in Hollywood reach out to me. One of them becomes a client and a longtime friend. And then I meet other people through the second contact that I wound up working with for many years afterwards.

So they got me my leads. The last way I got leads was my network of friends who I went to school with also thought I was a decent, good designer. So my first job in advertising was because a friend of mine, Colleen Mathis, told me to submit my portfolio because she needed a partner to work with. So that's how I got my job in advertising. The way I got to work with the legendary Kyle Cooper who does main title design was because one of my very good friends from school was dating him at the time, and she knew that the two of us would get along because we have a way of looking at the world. You see a consistent theme here, everybody. It happens over and over again,

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Bobby Oliver:

Have you ever wondered how some of the most successful businesses you see in your everyday life got started? Starbucks, Microsoft, Walmart, each company has its own unique origin story. I'm Bobby Oliver, host of the podcast, Business Origins. I explore these stories with you every week, and each episode is less than 10 minutes. Find Business Origins wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 4:

It's the Jeff Ward show.

Speaker 5:

The two oldest presidents in history coming back for round two. Shouldn't we be proud? One is drooling on himself ,and the other is the pied piper of the nut jobs, and the pied piper of the nut jobs is going to win. For the people that are sincerely worried about fossil fuels, these kids with mullets, I'm going to say are not helping you. They're hurting. So shut up and go vape.

Speaker 4:

Get the Jeff Ward Show podcast wherever you are listening right now.

Speaker 6:

Each week, we dive into the mind of the con artist uncovering the secrets behind the biggest Ponzi schemes you've never heard about.

Speaker 7:

We're not talking about Bernie Madoff or Charles Ponzi.

Speaker 6:

That's right. Those guys have been covered to death. The Ponzi Playbook will focus on those fraudsters who have swindled millions from unsuspecting investors. Subscribe to The Ponzi Playbook wherever you get your podcasts.

Chris Do:

Welcome back to our conversation.

Mo Ismail:

I've recapped what you just said into six Cs, because I like alliteration, even though this is not alliteration. It's just the same first letter. And then break wherever I miss something. So if we were to recap this for somebody to literally play by play, first thing you got to do is choose, make a choice around the craft. What is it that you want to do? And you've said that the reason why you left school with such a head start in getting work, for example, is because you worked like an animal in school to, where when you got out of school you were a master at the craft, relatively speaking. The next thing is once you've made a choice around that craft, copy. So that's your second C, meaning find the people that are doing it at the highest level and literally copy their work, not for some sort of portfolio, but just copy it to understand their decision making, their thought process and how they do what they do.

Then you go from copy to create. So you have to create your own work at this point. It sounds like you were doing a lot of that. Your brother found out. Then the people in his ecosystem found out. Then your friends found out. Then your classmates found out, because you were actively creating. And though you may not have been doing it the same way you're doing now where you're publishing publicly across all the places, but they were in places that people could see, which is the fourth C, which is communicate, a fancy word for marketing. If you created something, you got to communicate out into the world that this is what you're doing. This is something like him putting his portfolio with Adobe, him communicating that to his brother. Then the fifth C for me is now that people know about you, you got to convert them.

So these are people that want the work. You have to convert them into people that actually know you, are aware of you. They're not buying just yet, but convert them into an aware audience of what you do. For Chris, this was brother, students, colleagues, now contemporaries. And then the last C is close. You actually had to close that business, right? You had to close that deal. I think hearing your story, and maybe I do want your thoughts on this, I think where people do not do a great job, myself included, is the first two Cs. They don't choose. They jump too much, and they don't sit down to really allow themselves to copy as a student. They go straight to creation, which just prolongs actually learning because you're kind of creating in the dark. So hearing those six Cs of what you just played back, one, is it simple enough? Two, where does it break? And did I miss anything that you would want to highlight for the audience?

Chris Do:

Very good job, Mo. I like it, and I think you're really, really close. I think we can break this down to a little bit slightly different way, but I like it. So you've got good bones on there. I think where it falls apart is towards the end. Okay? I like choose. You got to choose the lane of focus, something that you're going to get really behind and when you choose. The second C would be to commit to put in the necessary work, because without that commitment, it's just a wish and a dream. And then I'm going to take one or two of your things that combine it all into one. And the best way to learn something is to copy, combine, and then create in that order. People like to create before they learn what the rules are, the fundamentals.

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

And they skip very necessary steps in the learning process. So copy, combine, and then create, which will lead you to the third or fourth C, which is it builds confidence. When you do something enough times, you believe in yourself, and nothing sells better than confidence in your ability to do this work. You've put in enough reps. Where this starts to fall apart is you have to then somehow build a reputation.

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

It's not totally communicate, but you just need to let people know, "This is what I do, this is what I love, and I'm good at this." And you just put it out into the universe. There's a better C word there, I don't know what it is.

Mo Ismail:

Yeah, there probably is a better C word.

Chris Do:

Yes, we'll find it, right? And then maybe we don't have to have so many Cs at that point because most of the work is done for you, and people are now willing to give you an opportunity. And if the work is good, you'll have the capability to make capital.

Mo Ismail:

Hey, yo.

Chris Do:

I don't know. And I don't really...

Mo Ismail:

I love it.

Chris Do:

... have to convert or close. Because at this stage in the game, we're not talking about high ticket, high sales, so most people are like, "I have a need. Sounds like you're a good available option. I'm just going to work with you." In the case of the fashion salon or boutique that you worked with, it's not like they had 35 people to call. They called Chris, Chris recommended you was a done deal. We're at that level right now, just getting our first opportunities out there. So you don't even need to have sales skills or negotiation skills, just except the work. That's what you're looking for. You're looking for an opportunity to show people what you can do. And I think you need to take those when you can get them.

Mo Ismail:

Facts.

Chris Do:

Okay? So I'm going to jump forward in time. So when you pivot, when you do a hard pivot, which many of you are potentially in that position now where you've been known to do one thing, and now you want to do something else, and it's very difficult to reposition yourself. An example would be if you're an illustrator and you want to do graphic design or build websites, or you were a developer and now you want to be a front end designer or UX designer, very difficult because that reputation that you've built up over the years, everybody thinks of you as a person who can do A. If you hated apples all your life and all of a sudden you want to buy an apple, aren't you allergic to that? No, no, no. You got to go through this whole campaign. Okay? So that did quite literally happen to us. We're working with advertising clients.

We have sales reps. I want to do brand strategy, identity design, marketing, communications, markcom stuff. And this is very different cause we're used to working with an agency as their intermediary between the client who figure out the strategy, write the copy, sell it through. But now I want to work with clients directly because I just wouldn't have access to different types of clients. It's great if you're a Fortune 100, Fortune 500 company. But what if you're not even a Fortune 5,000? Don't you deserve high class, high level creativity? I think so, and I wanted to work with them. So we needed to learn how to do this in a whole different way. And so the way I wanted to do was to lead with brand strategy, something I had just learned how to do. And for the period of about a year, anybody that was willing to talk to me about doing work together, I would do a soft pivot. So we had the body of work. As you said, Mo, it's kind of important for you to keep doing what you're doing to keep the money flowing.

Mo Ismail:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

So people would call upon us and say, "Hey. Yeah, I think I need a video made." And they knew that we could do that. I said, "Great, come on into the office. Let's talk." And here's the line that I would use with them. I know you're here to see us or talk to us about making a video, but before we do, so I find it helpful to engage with our clients about their overall strategic business objectives, or your global business objectives, so I can make sure that if it does require video, we know what we're doing it for, and if something else should come up, that we're able to address that. Would you be interested in doing this?

Of course, they're going to say yes. It seems like you've got a good head on your shoulders. That's where I say... Now, normally when I run these sessions, my clients will pay me $10,000. I want to do something for 45 minutes. It's free. This one's on me. You find this to be helpful. If you want to proceed with us, we can talk about an engagement later. So I'm addressing all their thoughts and their concerns. Why are we doing this? What are we doing? What is the value of this? Are you trying to sell me something? And I just address all those issues right up front. Most creative people are unclear about their creative process. They're awkward or shy or avoiding talking about money, and so they create this anxiety within the client's mind that, oh, I'm going to get into some weird funnel right now.

They're going to try to timeshare this thing on me, and then they're not really paying attention. Okay? So I do what I do. I get on a whiteboard, we talk about how you're making money, where you see the biggest room for improvement, where it's worked, where it hasn't, and I demonstrate to them. I don't pitch them, I don't talk about it. I just literally do it with them, and they walk away with a lot of clarity and insight and a renewed appreciation for what a quote designer does, or a videographer or a motion designer does. And I did that for about a year, putting the price tag at $10,000 to have someone pay me to do branch strategy for them. I got a lot of responses like, "That's too much money. I don't think we need this. I don't know if we can afford it. What am I getting again?" And I did this for a year, while maintaining my original business, my original clients. And eventually someone said, "Yes, that makes perfect sense," and then we're off to the races.

The funny thing is it's really hard to get your first yes, but once you get your first yes, it leads to that whole confidence thing where they get more value than what they paid you to do, you start to believe in this idea that you have, and now you can go out and sell even more. So it's really funny, it takes a year to sell our first engagement for 10 grand, quite literally a year. But the next one came in weeks. The next one came in days. It just became easier and easier, and we were able to increase our brand strategy service from 10,000 to 30,000 to over $100,000 as we grew into this phase. It was wonderful to do. So let's peel away the layers, Mo. How does someone replicate this?

Mo Ismail:

All right, here's what I think. To kind of summarize that, if you're already in a position where your craft and your professionalism and your tenure can speak for you, I think at that point, it's just a level of confidence to introduce this new thing that you're doing. And that's all it took from you because you had the flow of leads, you had the flow of customers inquiring for your business, and then you just gently introduced them to this new concept. And you were okay with people maybe not biting in the beginning, but you're doing your test rounds, the 45 minutes. 45 minutes maybe they never purchased. And then when someone purchased and confirmed that, "Okay, I'm going to spend 10 Gs," I know you enough now to know, as soon as you got that first yes, you're like, "Cool. Next yes, we're doubling the price." But for that to even happen, it's just the confidence to introduce it to the person. That's my takeaway from that story, personally.

Chris Do:

You would be missing a lot of the finer points there.

Mo Ismail:

You just had to say that, didn't you?

Chris Do:

Well, because that's what happened.

Mo Ismail:

What are the finer points?

Chris Do:

You think that if you are well known in an industry and you want to move into a different industry, providing a different service and a different way of working, it's just that easy, you can just do a soft pivot and Bob's your uncle, as good as I think I am, as well connected as I am, it takes a year of just pitching one after the other and hearing no after no after no for a year. Now, when was the last time you committed to a strategy for a year and not gave up?

Mo Ismail:

I definitely got that piece where you had to pitch for a year, and I know that you did it for free for a minute there too.

Chris Do:

Yeah.

Mo Ismail:

I know you did that, but you had to have the goal to even make that introduction to what you're doing, and continue to do it time and time again until you hit... And probably during those times you were continuing to optimize the fit, the pitch and refine it over and over until you got that yes, and then you multiplied it and doubled down on it. But you're right, there has to be a level of commitment to what you're trying to build and what you're trying to do.

Chris Do:

Yeah. And I got a lot of counter offers, do it under this way for this long, for this price. And every single one of them, I said no.

Mo Ismail:

So good.

Chris Do:

Stuck to my guts, right? So you can try this. You've been in business five, six years. So if you spent a year of your life trying to achieve some result, whether you wanted to be a public speaker, an entertainer, whatever it is, give it a year of really working at it and then tell me what it is, because that would be 20% or 18% of your entire business career that you would spend trying to achieve this, right? A year out of 28 years is nothing, relatively speaking. But a year out of five, a year out of six, that's a lot. That's a significant amount of time for you to dedicate towards doing something. And of course, along the way, people are like, "What are you doing? Why do you think this would work? How'd you arrive at this idea?" I'm like, "It doesn't matter. I don't want to explain it to you. I'm not going to prove anything to you. You'll see when we're there." And as soon as we get there, all those naysayers either disappear, or "I knew you could do it. I knew this was going to work."

Mo Ismail:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

They always do that, right? They say real silent until you have success. That's the thing about having a vision. You can see things that no one can see.

Mo Ismail:

Yes. Yes.

Chris Do:

And you believe in it so firmly. It's as concrete and as real and tangible as anything else in your life, except for no one else can see it. And you go for it with dogged determination, and you're relentless in the pursuit and you're a hundred percent committed. So I just didn't sit there for a year and just imagine it happening. I read books. I watched videos, I attended workshops. I sought out mentors, and I figured out what do I need to do to make this happen? I kept pushing and learning until I was a person who had this skillset that someone would say, "Yes, this sounds like a good idea." and that's only in the beginning. Because once you get yourself into hot water like that, you have to learn even more because now someone's committing real money and your professional reputation is at stake, and I don't want to risk that.

Mo Ismail:

That's what it is, by the way. This is a meta lesson right here. The reason why... And I got the better Cs, by the way, which we'll come back to here in a second. I've put them together. I want to be careful to say this generally, but people are scared to put their back against the wall when it comes to that moment. That's why it's much easier to just live in the pondering or hoping someone intuits that you want this. Because the second that someone paid you, you're on the line now. It's not imaginative anymore. It's not figurative anymore. It's not, well, I wish this would happen. So I have two questions for you on this. What is stopping people from making that jump to commit for a year to something that they have a vision on? What do people need to overcome to be able to make that move?

Chris Do:

I suspect that they're self story isn't one where every single time they commit to something that they get the results that they want. Whereas my self stories, every time I commit to something, I always get what I want. And so it begins there, right? My wife's always asking me, "How do you know this is going to work?" It's like, when has it not worked? And when it doesn't work, I just change the plan a little bit until it works again. Maybe that's cheating. I don't know, but I want the result that I want and I get what I want. I'm so committed to this new mastermind group. I can already see the a hundred people who have signed up, and then I can already see what I'm going to do with the money that's generated from this, and the experience I'm going to be able to deliver.

I'm already four, five, six steps ahead as to what happens when this other goal that people see feel like it's not going to happen. They lack faith. They lack the conviction to see this all the way through. And when you open the door for doubt to come in, doubt comes in. And I always have a problem, right? So let me just share something with you. Anybody that's ever worked with me in the entire history of my professional career has learned something about me, in that I don't have a lot of room to try to justify or to cajole or to pitch or convince people why they should work with me. I have supreme confidence that what I'm doing for the price in which I'm doing it for is a bargain. So when people who are on the front line interfacing with clients or customers, and they act in a way that's inconsistent with the way that I see myself, it really bothers me...

So for example, if I sell you a program and the program is 10 grand, I don't want the person who's out there saying, "Well, we need to reduce the price." I'm like, "No, find a new customer, because what you're saying is you don't believe that what we do is worth it."

Mo Ismail:

Right.

Chris Do:

Well, I'm not saying that. I'm like, "No, you're literally saying that because you're willing to reduce the price." I'm uncompromising when it comes to that kind of stuff because I know I can deliver the goods. So I say to them, "You might not believe in you, but you need to believe in me. And I believe in me. And it's annoying to me that you don't believe in us enough that you're willing to start cutting corners like this on price or terms." So the people who have a long-term future with me, they might not believe in themselves, but they don't need to because they're not selling themselves. They're selling our program, our commitment. And so they go out and they're like, "I don't care what you pay that guy because he's going to over-deliver." I've seen it happen time and time again, and that. It is a strategy of mine, to in there to negotiate the best price for us, because I know no matter what, if you pay me 20 grand, if you pay me a hundred grand, I'm going to do my best to give you a hundred grand plus, whatever it is.

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

I'll bring the value because I know something I'm not looking for right now client. I'm looking for a long-term relationship. And so I'm not going to take on a project or a client that I know I can't deliver on because that's going to be a very short-lived experience, and I want that.

Mo Ismail:

Yes.

Chris Do:

So why people get stuck, why don't they commit? I don't know why. I don't understand it. And if I did, I'd make a lot of money. Something's obviously holding them back. They don't believe in it enough. And we're all tested at different times in our life. Sometimes we take that step forward and we pass our test. Sometimes we don't. I don't know why.

Mo Ismail:

I think you answered the question. It's that undeniable belief in one's self and committing to the fact that you will deliver in excess of what you promised when it comes to value. But it starts with that belief piece, which brings us back to landing this plane with the newly designed five Cs that have come up from this conversation, which you will not change because they're excellent.

Chris Do:

Wait, wait, wait, before you do that, you said there's two things.

Mo Ismail:

Well, you answered the second thing, so I'm not going to be redundant about it.

Chris Do:

All right.

Mo Ismail:

The second thing was how to make sure, when you are in the position where someone says yes, that you don't fumble the bag, and what you said was it's because I know that... You feel like it's a bargain and that, because of how you are wired professionally, that you will over-deliver on the value. So there's never an option for you to not get that desired end result or let doubt creep in.

Chris Do:

Let me ask the question of myself that you didn't ask me, but I'm going to ask [inaudible 00:49:56].

Mo Ismail:

Please, do it. Yeah.

Chris Do:

The question is, how can you know you're going to deliver more value than what you're paid? Where does this supreme confidence come from, this belief in oneself? Because that might be a big unlock for some people. So I'm going to answer that question, obviously, the question, okay, before I tell you the answer, which is, I want you to take inventory of your life and what you do with your time, because that's all we got. We got this few precious hours every single day to get us towards our goal. I want to ask you, when you have a moment, when you're not working, when you're not taking care of your responsibilities, to your partner, to your children, to your parents, whoever it is that you have some responsibilities towards, what are you doing in your free time? And that will tell you a lot about why I have supreme self-confidence and why you might be lacking.

Now, I'll give you some options about what people do in their free time. They relax, they sit on the couch, they read a magazine, they do a crossword puzzle, they walk the dog, they sweep their front yard, they hang out with their besties, they go to the bar, whatever it is that they're doing. So people get caught up in routines because routines give us some comfort because it's a known thing, it's familiar to is. And if you were to look at me like, "Chris, what are you doing?" I'm constantly trying to be a better person. So you'll see there's a lot of house projects that never get done at the house, that when you come and visit me, you'll like, "Chris, this has been sitting in this box for a year." I'm like, "I know." Because it's actually very low on my priority list. I've got books I need to read. I've got people I need to talk to because I want to surround myself with people who inspire me, who challenge me, who know something I do not know.

People think I do the podcast because I want to go up in their rankings of the podcast. That's a result. That's a result of something. It's not what it is I'm trying to do. I'm trying to have conversations with really smart people and ask them questions that help me solve a problem, and I take our audience along the way. And I think they benefit from me asking the question that they're thinking of themselves. And I think that's why people like the podcast so much, or why they like the interviews that I do with people. And so I'm out there in the real world and inversely speaking to people because I want to sharpen my thinking, I want to think critically, I want to challenge my own thoughts. I don't want to challenge the thoughts of other people because it's how I learn. I put myself into situations that for normal people would be very stressful, volunteering to teach, doing workshops, teaching and talking about subjects that are new to me, exploring new tools and technologies, watching videos that expand my mind all the time.

So I'm constantly working on myself because I do not know when or where, but what I learned today, what I learned yesterday will pay off. So I don't think this of myself. I don't think I'm some great reader, right? But when I get onto podcasts and people interview me or on Instagram lives and like, "How can you remember that concept from that book? I read that same book. I don't remember it. How are you able to cite this book?" And their conclusion is they need to read more. I don't think they need to read more. They need to read better, because there's not a game of volume. It's a game of depth. How well can you understand something, such that you can explain it to other people without notes, without rehearsal, without preparation? This is really important. I become insanely or radically curious about the things that I'm curious about. I want to learn. So I'll meet and talk to people that aren't necessarily in that same circle of people who live in the same space as me.

Because yeah, that's cool, but I'll learn more by talking to people outside of my little comfort circle, right? My comfort bubble. And that's what I'm doing with my spare time. And so I already know this [inaudible 00:53:56]. There are a few problems that you're going to come to me with that I can't figure out, either on the spot, through dialogue with you, through a little research, or I punt it for two weeks, let me do my research, and I'll figure out an answer for you. And if I can transform your life and your business, your relationships, your communications, your mindset, your confidence, I know that has a value to you. And when I can do that, you will give me money. If you had it, you would give me the money. Okay, I'm ready for your five Cs.

Mo Ismail:

Okay. Okay, okay. I figured out the five Cs after our little back and forth. If you were still early in your journey and you want to replicate either how I got clients or how Chris got clients, I think these five Cs overlap. Number one is still choose. You have to choose what it is that you want to do, what your focus is. Number two is you got to commit to that choice. If you think about some of the stories that Chris has said, a year long commitment into that choice without any ROI, return on investment, but that eventually, because of his, for lack of a better term, delusion in the vision, yielded that return. The third one is craft. This is where you said copy, combine, and create all in one, so we'll call it craft. You have to be a practitioner of what it is that you want to be known for.

You start by copying the person that you are learning from. You combine that thing that you've learned into your own style, and then you create. The fourth one is you got to claim it. You got to claim what it is to you do, first, for yourself. This is where the confidence comes in. And then externally to the world, this is where the marketing comes in, whether it's inbound like in Chris's situation or outbound, like you're knocking on doors. You have to claim it. And then the last one is capital. If you did the first four well, then inevitably, it should turn into some [inaudible 00:55:54]. What you think about those five, Chris? What's popping?

Chris Do:

Pretty good. I like that. Way to sum it up, Mo.

Mo Ismail:

Choose, commit, craft, claim, capital. I'll pass it off to Chris to end the episode for us. What are some final words? And get us out of here.

Chris Do:

I want to share some words of encouragement because I know getting that first client, that first big break is very, very difficult. But for you to be committed, to be uncompromising and wanting to get that result, and putting in the time to work necessary to get it, it doesn't mean that everybody that has a goal and is committed to it is going to get it because I think they haven't put in the work. I see it all the time in my DMs where you say, "I do this," and I look at the work and it's actually not very good at all. And so it means that you're expecting something to happen without having to put in the work yourself. The greatest investment that you're ever going to make in your life isn't in the Dow Jones or standards and poor market. It's not in gold, it's not in crypto or web3. It's in yourself. "Work hard on your job and you have a career," as Jim Rohn said, "Work on your personal development and you have a life."

Stuart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Stuart Schuster. Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me, head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission, and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

‍