Erwin McManus: [00:00:00] When you do the small things as if It is the most important thing in the world. You develop the skills necessary to do the most important things in the world.

Chris Do: So Erwin, we've done this dance together a couple different times, and I'm so thrilled to have you here in person, even better than across on Zoom or something else. I first came across you at the Ford event. It was from a small mastermind. It was in San Diego. And the weird thing is, and I have to tell the story, my wife knows who you are, and the reason for her to come was to see you speak.

But she drove down that morning, and she had a massive headache, and [00:01:00] she's like sensitive to bright light. And then so she goes to the event, and she goes up to her hotel room to take a quick nap. I don't know the speaking schedule. It's always a mystery, right? Like if you're in the event, like who knows when and who's and then you do your thing, and I'm thinking, and I forgot about my wife.

I should have been like, honey, wake up. Because I was thinking she needs to sleep. Then after you spoke, first of all, round of applause. Everybody standing up, like standing ovation. Wonderful. I want to call it sermon because I'm not sermon, but you're just a master orator. And I was just thinking, who is this guy?

I need to know more about you. So my wife was a little upset that I didn't go upstairs and wake her up and pull her down. Heaven forbid, you know, I wake my wife up. So you'd speak on so many different things, but today I'd like to kind of just talk about communications. You're an amazing storyteller. You have a way of framing and reframing things, maybe we just start off with kind of just an open thing and I'll just sit back and listen and figure out where we go with this, but on the topic of communication, tell me what you're thinking about these days.

Erwin McManus: Well, before we dive in there, since we're talking about our origin story, I [00:02:00] had not yet come across you, and I just got to know Neil, and it was a new world for me.

And I got there early and you spoke before I spoke, but after you finished, there was a break and this whole group of people just gravitated around you and you're on this whiteboard drawing out diagrams and teaching them and and I remember sitting in the back thinking to myself this one you're really compelling, but two you're incredibly generous with your time, but really generous with your insight. And so I told myself, I have to find a way to meet this person and get to know him.

So for me, that was my great gift. My great takeaway from, from the time there was the great, it was get to meet you. You just have such, I just love your spirit. I love your essence. You know, since then we've, we've been able to eat together and that's right. And everywhere I go, people speak of you in such high regard.

People just really, not just love your content. They love your [00:03:00] essence as a person. So I just want to say that I think you're a rare, you know, bang.

Chris Do: Thank you so much. Really appreciate that.

Erwin McManus: But speaking of that. Yeah, you asked me earlier about what do I have coming up? I have a a book that's coming out called the Seven Frequencies of Communication.

I did a master class called the art of communication that really was about a six to eight hour master class teaching people basically the universe of communication. It's not really technique and methodologies it's really more about essence and how to connect what you say to who you are as a human being and to make it organic and essential a part of who you are as a human being and out of that, I developed a seven frequencies of communication, which really what really was striking me was how many times in my life I've listened to someone that other people thought would just change my life and I didn't really connect or other times I really connected to someone and I thought it would change someone else's life and they didn't really connect and I realized that we don't all listen and speak [00:04:00] at the same frequency there's something unique in the way the humans interact and connect together and also I also realized there were times in my life where someone told me something that was true, and I rejected it, and it wasn't because of the truth, it was because of the frequency of it.

And it's almost easier to believe something that isn't accurate when the frequency resonates more with us. And I think even on a political system, you know, when you're looking at, you know, right now we're having the whole thing with Biden and Trump and everything, I pay attention so much to the frequencies in which people speak, not the words that they say.

Because especially in the political world, you're taught to say what needs to be said and you can orchestrate the words, but you can't hide your frequency. And so you can tell when a person's telling the truth or not telling the truth, you can tell when they are actually owning something or not. And a very like, I don't know, metaphysical way I began discovering this early and I'll tell you a funny story. I was in, in Germany speaking at an [00:05:00] event, about 5, 000 leaders, and I had a translator since I'm speaking in English. And I knew most of the things that I was saying was very controversial to that room. But about halfway through my talk, I make a statement, a really strong statement, and my translator translates.

And I stop, and I say to him, you didn't say what I said. He goes, what? And I said, you did not say what I said. You didn't agree with what I said, so you changed it. He goes, you don't speak German, how could you know that? And I said, that's not the point. Did you change what I said or did you translate what I said?

He goes, no, I changed what you said. I said, you know, your job isn't to agree with me. It's just to translate me with integrity. I did this in front of 5, 000 people. And afterwards, no one remembered what I talked about. I don't even remember what I talked about. Everyone remembered that moment. And people were asking me, how could you know?

In fact, the, the translator. Just was devastated going how could you know and I told him I said I don't listen to words I [00:06:00] listen to frequencies and the moment you spoke your frequency didn't match my frequency and I knew in fact It was in conflict with my frequency so I knew you changed the meaning of what I said and my family has been embarrassed by me because when I've traveled to maybe 70, 80 countries around the world and I'll go to different countries I'll listen to people in languages I do not know and then I'll go up to them and I'll say, excuse me, I was eavesdropping. Did you say this? And did you say this? And I say 90 percent of the time they'll tell me, yeah, that, that is, do you speak Korean or do you speak Farsi or do you said, no, no, I just, I'm just doing an experiment. And I actually think that all of us hear in frequencies, but we translate in words and language. And because of that, I think like words are magic, like the ability for human beings to connect at a deep level. is, to me, almost like, transcendental.

Chris Do: Well, I have to ask you this small question, because most people aren't aware of the frequencies, [00:07:00] or even if we were, we probably wouldn't have the wherewithal to stop, and say, wait a minute, your job is to do this, and what compelled you to say that, or is just, is that your nature, and you've been this way forever?

Erwin McManus: To say that to the translator?

Chris Do: Yeah, just like, hey, I know we're live in front of 5, 000 people, but I have a problem right now, we need to resolve it. Like, for me, being a little conflict averse, I'm like, I don't think you said what I said, but I'm just gonna let it roll. What made you say, no, we need to stop, we have to have a conversation right now?

Erwin McManus: Well, part of it is, I would not get on a plane from Los Angeles to Berlin.

Chris Do: Yes.

Erwin McManus: If I didn't think the message I was bringing was critical and important. And so, how I felt in that moment, Or how he would feel in that moment was less important than the stewardship of that message. And so I felt like I was just, um, a steward of a message.

And so it wasn't about me at all. It would have been so much easier for me just to keep going. I would have been like better if I had let them go [00:08:00] because they would thought I already agreed with them, but you can know this in everyday conversations where you're talking to your wife. I was going to say fighting with your wife, but I'm sure you never fight.

But have you ever noticed that when your wife says what you want her to say, it's easy to hear. And when she's saying something you don't want her to say, it's, it's easy to misunderstand her. And this is true in human relationships. I would always tell my team, look, when someone agrees with me. It's easy for me to hear them.

When someone doesn't agree with me, it's easy for me to reinterpret them and to translate what they say to match what I've said. And that's why one of the most important questions you can ask a person is, What did you hear me say? And I've been married 40 years. I can tell you that most of our conflicts are when we don't actually hear what the other person has said, but we hear what we think they should have said. It's dramatically different. It's true even with parenting and every [00:09:00] relationship. And so yeah, I know it's weird that I did that on stage. I think it's that I also do that in real life. Human beings are incredibly adaptive.

My wife asked me one time, do you think human beings are capable of anything? And I said, we're capable of doing anything we need for survival. There there's a tribe in the Amazon called the Baka people. And by the age of eight years old, the children have a PhD level knowledge of botany. And the reason they have that is because it's the most dangerous ecosystem in the world.

And so they have to have that level of knowledge to survive. Most of us wouldn't think it's possible to have a PhD level knowledge of botany at 28, much less 8. We are capable of massive adaptation. What I notice is many people who grew up, let's say, with a father who's an alcoholic, or they grew up in a home where there's abuse or there's violence, they learn how to read micro expressions at levels that other people cannot.

They've begun to learn how to interpret different sounds, and almost the spaces in between, [00:10:00] The material. I remember one person told me that he could tell by the sound of his father's keys outside the door, whether his dad was drunk or not, and whether it was going to be a night filled with violence or a night with peace.

And it's, it's amazing our capacity to listen and to hear and to communicate and to connect. And so I grew up in, in a somewhat challenging environment and I had to learn how to read between the lines for survival. I had to learn how to read micro expressions, I had to learn how to pay attention to nuances in between the words and the spaces between the phrasing.

And in some sense, I think I was, I was trained for this from my infancy forward. And now I, it's one of the greatest like assets I have in my life and I love teaching other people not just how to communicate, but how to listen.

Chris Do: On that note, when you were growing up in these challenging times, were you appreciative of those challenges at that moment or only upon the realization of what it [00:11:00] did for you, not what it did to you, that you could appreciate it?

Erwin McManus: I don't think I was appreciating the dark moments in my life, but I also don't think I thought they were extraordinary because it's the only life I knew. So I didn't know other people had a different life. And now with social media, you have a sense that other people have different life. In fact, you have a sense that they have a life that actually they don't have.

But when you're growing up, you don't know that what you have is unusual or good or bad. It just is what it is. And so I didn't grow up going, why is my life like this? But I did grow up going, Why don't I fit into the world? And so I knew that there was something disconnecting inside of me to the world around me.

I didn't know that there was any world better outside of that. Which is really interesting because when you look at, like, the psychological structure of people, you cannot predict by the environment how a person will actually be [00:12:00] shaped by it. Because it's how we react and respond to that environment that actually shapes us.

And so I, even though I grew up in, you know, one kind of environment, I actually became a reactionary to that environment. So ironically, I grew up around a lot of people who truth was just a tool. There is no morality to truth or falsehood, to telling the truth or lying. So for whatever reason, I think by the time I was probably seven or eight, I decided I would never lie.

And, oh man, I got hit all the time. I mean, I just got beat and smacked and punished. And later, my mom said, everyone else would say they didn't do it! And then you wouldn't say anything. And the reason I wouldn't say I didn't do it is because then I just looked like I was lying like everyone else. So I would rather be punished than be seen as a liar.

So I developed this incredibly intense commitment to truth, even though I didn't have a moral universe for it. So sometimes you actually get a really powerful virtue when you're in an environment that lacks that [00:13:00] virtue. just because you react to it and make a different choice.

Chris Do: Well, you were saying earlier that we are capable of doing anything to adapt for survival, and if you're living in challenging conditions, then you are incredibly adaptive because you have to do it, otherwise you would not be here, right?

Erwin McManus: Absolutely.

Chris Do: So to bring this back to your ability to feel or sense frequency in terms of what the intention is. Is this something that someone who didn't grow up in a similar challenging ways, how do we learn from that? How do we use some of the things that you pick up? Through your evolution is like, how do we learn from that?

Erwin McManus: I think we're on a spectrum and I think sometimes there are people in our lives who are tone deaf. They only use one frequency for everyone and they expect everyone to use the same frequency. And so they're not very nuanced and we might call that a lack of emotional intelligence or, or social intuition.

And, you know, I remember one time I'd been traveling a ton and I came home, it was probably two weeks. So I was on the road and the moment I walked into the house, my wife, [00:14:00] Kim who, if you look at the frequencies, her primary frequency is called a commander. And so even when my wife's just asking, it comes across like a command.

I walk in the house and the first thing she says to me is, take out the garbage. Now I know that when Kim says, take out the garbage, she's saying, I've missed you so much. I'm so happy you're here. I love you with every fiber of my being. And there's just so much to read in that statement. But then on that day, I did not read that.

All I read was take out the garbage. And I, I responded by saying, I just walked in. I've been gone two weeks. I'm tired. Can I rest? And then she realized when she had done, she goes, I'm so sorry. You know, just sit and chill. And, um, then a couple of minutes later, I got a call from some of the guys and they said, hey, we heard your home. We rented a gym. You want to come play basketball?

Chris Do: I feel like I know where the story is going.

Erwin McManus: And, well, you know, let me, let me, let me, let me see. Right. So, so I wait a few minutes, I go to Kim and I [00:15:00] say, hey honey, um, you know, after I take out the garbage.

Chris Do: You're like a kid in this story. You really are.

Erwin McManus: And, you know, would it be okay? I mean, I know how important it is to you that I have, like, good guy friends in my life. And, you know, would it be okay if I go play basketball with the guys? I don't know. And Kim said, Oh, no, you are so tired. I would never let you go play basketball when you're this exhausted. I said, no, it's like, it's crazy, I'm re energized.

And then Kim looked at me and she said, so let me get this right. You just got home and you'd rather go play basketball with the guys than spend time with me. And when you put it like that, it sounds terrible.

Chris Do: It does sound pretty bad, Erwin.

Erwin McManus: And she said. Sure. Go right ahead.

Chris Do: Oh. Okay. I see. There's a difference between language and frequency. Sure. Even [00:16:00] an idiot like me can hear that one.

Erwin McManus: The problem is that a lot of people can't, they actually only hear the words and not the frequency. By the way, I never tell the ending of the story. I did not go play basketball. That's why I'm still making it.

Chris Do: You made the right choice.

Erwin McManus: I made the right choice. Yeah. And because I knew that in that statement, sure, go right ahead, what she was saying is. I'm going to make your life miserable for the next two to three weeks, because you chose that over me, because I'm going to be so hurt, I'm going to carry that hurt. And I'm using an extreme example, but every single day people speak to you in the conflict of their words to their frequency.

If you listen carefully, you actually begin to hear people more beautifully and you understand people better. I'm going to give you just like a fast rundown.

Chris Do: Let's do it.

Erwin McManus: All right, I'm just going to lay them out. There's, there's the motivator, the challenger, the commander, the healer, the professor, the seer, and the maven. And we'll, we [00:17:00] can come back. But the reason I'm just kind of going over them quickly is I'm just going to talk about my little universe. My wife is a commander. And so she speaks the dominantly through command. Even when she's asking, she's telling. Right. And my son Aaron, who's just turned 36, he's also a commander.

So I have a wife and a son who are commanders and they always just tell me what to do. And my daughter who's 32, she's the second frequency that I identify the challenger. So my daughter's always challenging me that I can be better, that I can be more, that I can step up. My son and my wife are always telling me what I can do, how I should act and choose. And so I live in those command challenger frequencies all the time. Now, what's been really helpful is when I taught them the seven frequencies, it was like a light came on. Aaron will send me texts. The next five things I'm going to say will all sound like commands. They're actually just suggestions.

I don't even know if they're good [00:18:00] ideas. And so he's learned how to mitigate that commander frequency. The commander frequency is great when there's a fire, when you're at war. When you're on a ship and a tsunami comes, you want someone who doesn't need consensus, who knows what to do and speaks with directive, authoritative language.

But when you come home, if you've been a commander all day at work, and you're commanding your six year old daughter, you're gonna really damage her spirit. If you come home and all your language to your wife is commander, you're gonna end up with such a distance in your relationship. Because commanders always assume everyone needs them to tell them what to do.

It's almost like they don't need to tell everyone what to do, they believe everyone needs them. to tell them what to do. So they're serving you with the command, and which is kind of ironic because of the seven frequencies, we have an assessment that we've taken two years to develop. Command is my seventh frequency.

It's my last frequency, and this is how it plays out. [00:19:00] I don't know if there are any children in the world who've ever said this, but both my kids have come to me and said, please just tell us what to do. Don't be Yoda. Don't be Miyagi. I don't need your zen dad. I just, I just need you to tell me what to do.

And then my response will be, well, let's think about this. And it makes me angry. I've created such a deficit of command in my home that my children beg me for command. In fact, one time my daughter was sharing about her life. My dad never even told me not to drink. Or do drugs or to sleep around. I'm like, kinda did, you know, by showing you a better way.

But she can't remember me ever telling her. The reason is because I think, for me, commanding someone makes them weaker. That's not always true. There are moments where I have to become a commander. But because it's my furthest frequency, I have to consciously choose it. It never happens. naturally for me.

Does that make sense? [00:20:00] And you can hear different speakers. You can listen to them. One of my friends, Lewis Howes, I spoke at his conference, I think is like the summit of greatness or something like that. And I thought, okay, it's a summit of greatness. They're going to be visionary. They're going to be focusing on being great.

And so I came in with this like visionary concept and I'm going to just blow them away with a big idea for the future. And then I'm, um, Interacting with people before I speak, and it's packed with people who are there for therapeutic purposes. Everyone there had wounds and, and they were all there for healing.

And I listened to Lewis and I realized, Lewis is a healer. Like, his frequency emits to the world is healer frequency. So the thousands of people who came to this conference are all the people who came for healing. And so right before I went on the platform, I told myself, somewhere in your talk, you need to go to your healer frequency, somewhere in your talk.

But I got nervous and I thought, it's not going to happen. I'm going to get all excited. I'm going to get really [00:21:00] focused, become super intense. I'm going to forget. And so I made a decision at the last minute when I walked onto that stage, I began from a healer frequency and it radically altered my messaging.

And I think it connected me to the audience at a level that would have never happened because I'm listening to the frequency of the people. And rather than saying what frequency I'm most comfortable with, I just decided what frequency can this audience hear from best. And, and so each frequency has like a great power, great strength, some are more common.

The first one I mentioned is the motivator. I think it was, and motivators to me are the most likable. They're the ones everybody wants to hear because they, they inspire you. They energize you, their language is always breathing into you like inspiration and hope and a sense of self belief. I have a friend named John Gordon who's written like 40 books and he wrote a book called The Energy Bus.

That's the perfect motivator. And now he hates being called an energy coach. I introduced him the other day as an energy coach. He goes, I'm not an energy coach anymore. I [00:22:00] said, yeah, but you were when I met you, you know. And so I have you stuck, you know, in the way I met you. But he always talks about energy.

He's always talking about positivity. So I have a positive mental framework and he sees the whole world from people need to be inspired and people need a deeper sense of self belief. And that frequency emits all the time with him, which is really interesting because he was a really negative person. And he'll talk about how he was so pessimistic and so negative.

His wife told him,if you don't change, I'm going to leave you. And so what happens, and the reason I tell that story is that every frequency has a shadow. It's not that he moved to being a motivator is that he'd been living in a shadow for a long time. And I don't spend as much time talking about the shadows, but where they really stood out to me was when I was developing this material and building this universe out, I asked people, what TV show would you like for me to break down the frequencies?

Overwhelmingly, two shows, Friends, [00:23:00] Succession. Talk about two different types of people. I don't know if the same people watch those two shows. But I had Friends and Succession, and I thought, I'll do Succession.

Chris Do: They're interesting characters. They're very interesting. Yeah.

Erwin McManus: And then I had a nervous breakdown. I had like a panic attack because I could not find a single one of the seven frequencies from any of the characters. And talk about a crisis of faith or like it doesn't work. The system's broken. This universe isn't real. And then I had a moment of epiphany. Look at the shadows. And I started breaking down the show and I found all seven frequencies in the shadows. But the reason I couldn't find them at first is that there is not a single character in the session that operates from a positive frequency. They all operate from a negative frequency. Then I began to discover what I think is a little disturbing. It's so many of the most interesting characters that we have in television [00:24:00] and film are really only negative frequencies and they rarely ever express a positive frequency and which maybe is a little telling.

And I think it's a warning to us because we learn our frequencies from things like Friends. We learn how to use them well. We learn what works. We watch the Succession we go, oh, that's, this is what I need to do. And this is who I need to be to succeed. And so they're actually teaching us how to communicate with each other. And no wonder we have, I think, such a breakdown communication right now in the world around us.

Chris Do: Can you quickly go through the other types and describe them? So I'm trying to figure out which one I am. I know which one I think my wife is, and she may disagree with me, but.

Erwin McManus: Well, I mean, they're fairly evident. So you have the motivator who inspires and builds self belief, the challenger who always sees their role as to call people out and call them up. You're awesome, but not everything you should be. I felt that in my heart. I thought you were talking to [00:25:00] me for a second. You know, there's more in you, Chris.

Chris Do: Okay. I'm sorry.

Erwin McManus: But you need to get up at four.

Chris Do: Okay. Yes, sir.

Erwin McManus: Do your sit ups, get the cold plunge.

Chris Do: Right. Yeah.

Erwin McManus: And it take on the hurt.

Chris Do: Yes.

Erwin McManus: And that's the challenger, right? You know, and then you have the commander who's directive and authoritative, right? And then you have the healer and the healer sees everyone through their wounding. And the healer is convinced that the narrative is you need to go to have a conversation with your inner child. You need to deal with your inner wounds and your trauma. And this is the journey to finding yourself. And my experience with you is there's a lot of healer inside of you. And uh, if I, since I created the assessment, I would just say, in my assessment, there's, there's a lot of healer.

Chris Do: I'm good authority, you can say that.

Erwin McManus: Would you confirm that?

Chris Do: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. It depends on who you talk to though. Okay.

Erwin McManus: And, you know, the healer does have a shadow.

Chris Do: Is it the commander?

Erwin McManus: No. [00:26:00] Well, no. Then we can talk about blended frequencies. The next one is a professor.

Chris Do: Yes.

Erwin McManus: And professors tend to be data driven. They see the most powerful gift is the transference of knowledge and information. You have some professor in you as well. Yes. And so the gift you give people is your learning. And then you believe if you can pass this authority onto someone, it will change their life. And then you have the seer and the seer is the visionary.

They see the world through the future. And so they emit hope when they speak, hope elevates in the room. It's not just that people have a bigger vision for the world or for their company. They also have a bigger vision for themselves and their life. My favorite example of what I think is like the highest level of visionary is when Jesus looks at the multitudes that were outcasts and poor and prostitutes and drug addicts and tax collectors.

And he said, you are the light of the world. You are the salt of the earth. To me, that's the best expression. of a visionary, that you see greatness in people, you call them to a future that they can't [00:27:00] imagine themselves. And the last one's a maven, which is the most, I wouldn't say rare, but it definitely is the least common.

And the maven is different than a seer. A seer sees a beautiful future, but a maven sees a different reality. And the only way you really know you're listening to a maven is you're not sure if they're right, you know, or you have a thought of I've never seen that before. I've never thought of it that way before.

And so in the, maybe their most destructive mavens violate our views of reality. And they're the ones who always take the red pill in the matrix. And they also, the ones that probably write the matrix, you know? And so if, if there was a movie that expressed mavens, it would be like Inception. They just keep peeling away what's real.

And they make us nervous because they don't seem to protect like truth. And what they're really not protecting is orthodoxy. [00:28:00] Mavens influence history, but they don't influence masses. They tend to influence the other frequencies that influence masses. Like motivators are going to influence a lot more people.

Challengers won't influence as many as motivators, but they're going to influence a lot of people. Commanders actually do influence a lot of people. They just have to do it in tactical ways. It just can't be continuous. Healers. There's always like a massive audience because people are always struggling with their deep wounds and brokenness.

But going back to the healer a little bit, some of my friends who are healers, you know, you've met a healer when the first time you meet with them, they say to you, hey, I just want to go deep.

And I'm like, we haven't even dated yet. It's a little early for me. And so a lot of times a healer, they hate superficial conversation. They just want to go deep and they always see you through a wound. And so if you don't feel wounded in this [00:29:00] moment, you almost like create a wound because you feel obligated to be wounded because when you're a healer, you're most needed when someone's wounded.

So if someone's not wounded, you don't feel as needed. And so there's an interesting kind of dynamic in the mix of all those.

The Futur: It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Chris Do: When I started my motion design company Blind in 95, there was a lot I didn't know, so I tried reaching out to other business owners and professionals for help. What did I find? Many saw me as competition and those who didn't weren't able to give advice that made sense for my line of work. Thankfully, I was able to find my first and only business coach, Kir McLaren, who mentored me for 13 years.

I also learned that my story isn't unique. Many entrepreneurs feel like they're left to figure everything out on their own. It's why I created The Futur Pro Membership, a community I wish I [00:30:00] had when I first started. And I'd like to invite you to check out all that we have waiting for you inside at thefutur.com/pro.

The Futur: And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do: So is the theory then we tend to lean towards one frequency? That's our default frequency. How does this work?

Erwin McManus: This isn't like a, um, personality test.

Chris Do: Okay.

Erwin McManus: If you're familiar with the Myers-Briggs.

Chris Do: Yes.

Erwin McManus: You know, you're an ESTJ or an ENFP or an INFJ, and that's what you are, and you're not ever gonna be the other one. This is not like that. I, I'm convinced that there's an aspect of all seven frequencies that are in all of us, and it's just a matter of which frequency resonates more with our core, which one we've used the most. And for people who are dynamic communicators, and I don't mean on stages. I mean, people who really value connecting at a human level, they usually pick up two or three frequencies.

They have like a [00:31:00] cluster of frequencies. So when you're watching like a world class communicator on stage, many times there's two or three frequencies operating at the same time and you don't even understand what you're experiencing. It's like commander and healer at the same time. It's weird. You feel this authoritative voice giving you the courage to go to war, but where you go to war with this for your own healing and dealing with your wounds being honest with yourself. It's like this interesting connection of the two You can have a person who's a professor healer and that blending is very interesting there or a motivator who's also a seer and so they inspire and they build something but they also cast vision and help you see a different view of the future.

So there can be blends of these the one that is most difficult to blend is the Maven, you know, and I think it's because it's just a small populace of people and and my team has really worked hard to me just I find some people like even in our own community going who are the Mavens because [00:32:00] we're part of community called mosaic and we have one guy that I think is a Maven His name is Brian Bush, right? Brian is blind, but I can't say he's visually impaired because he sees more than almost all of us.

He basically became known around the world for echolocation. He's the guy that started making sounds and can ride his bike and can skateboard and can move more fluidly and capable than most people on this planet because he sees through sounds and has revolutionized our understanding of human capacity of senses.

And so when I'm talking to Brian, he's the I feel like I'm the one that's, you know, limited in my capacity to see. And he wasn't always blind. I think it's something that happened later in life. So he actually had this mental construct in him before he was blind. But his blindness actually skewed it to see the world through echolocation.

I think he's one of those, you know, one of, I have another friend named Dan Goods and he works for, [00:33:00] um, JPL, but he's an artist. And he went in and literally convinced JPL to create a job for him so he could translate obscure complex scientific principles to everyday people. And so he, I remember going, I think under the Brooklyn Bridge in New York where he had created all these installations and you know, sometimes he'll do something where like you'll see a speck of dust and then when you see the microscope, you see like a universe inside of it.

And he'll create art pieces that allow us to see reality in a way that we've never seen it before. And those people are so oftentimes eccentric or odd that it's hard for them to translate what's inside of them to the general audience.

Chris Do: Well, you mentioned earlier that Commander might be your seventh frequency. What is your first frequency?

Erwin McManus: Well, do we really want to be that self disclosing?

Chris Do: Can you say, give us a hint, maybe?

Erwin McManus: Yes. I, when I was developing the seven frequencies, what I [00:34:00] realized was it was easier for me to see the frequencies further from me. So right away, like Motivator, Commander, Challenger, Commander, I saw them right away.

Healer, Professor, they came very, very fast. And then I saw Seer. And then I was mapping it all out. I looked at it and I said, well, I travel in some of these, but this isn't really who I am. And who I am in my core is a maven. Which is why I create things like the seven frequencies of communication, but I couldn't see it.

It was, it was really challenging for me because who you are isn't, you don't think of yourself as a personality. You don't think yourself as a, you just as a frequency, just think of yourself as you. And then there's everyone else. And my family, you know, when we were mapping this out, it was going, okay, let's map out when you first began discovering this.

And I realized, that for me, it was, it was a huge challenge, you know, as a child, I'm an immigrant from El Salvador. [00:35:00] So Spanish was my first language. I compulsively ran away from home in El Salvador from sleepwalking. I would climb over the wall, go walking down the street and would go out to fields and try to connect to whatever species on another planet left me here and believing that I actually was from somewhere else and that I was a social experiment to see if we could integrate with human beings.

And so I realized that even from an early age of five or six, I was trying to explain reality in a way, you know, wasn't normative. And I think a lot of people have that feeling of huge isolation and disconnection. We just don't all explain it the same way. Someone else might explain it as you love my brother more than you love me, or I'm never good enough for you or something like that.

And, and somehow my, my construct became, I'm an alien species. And so from a young age that became a part of it, you know, I didn't know that. And so I was in a psychiatric chair by the time I was 10 years [00:36:00] old. Because my family didn't know if I was what they told me, like retarded is that, you know, language to use back then, or just like psychotic.

And a lot of us, cause I lived in a different world and you know, it was hard for me to understand the world in which I lived. And it took me a long time to learn how to communicate with anyone. I had an uncle who saw me once I was an adult and he said, so do you speak now? And he didn't mean as a speaker.

I said, what do you mean? He goes, I drove you from Miami to North Carolina to college, and you never said one word. That was like my normal space. And maybe that's why communication is so important to me is I felt like I had a log jam of endless things. I wanted to connect with people and to express and to, to share with other people.

I didn't know how. And then I just felt like if this is what's trapped inside of me, it's got to be trapped inside of other people too. And, you know, so maybe there's a part of me that has a little bit of healer, you know, trying to, uh, to help people not be alone in the world. You [00:37:00] know, the word communication comes from the same etymology as the word community and the word communion to commune.

If you want to connect at the deepest human level, you have to learn how to communicate. And if you develop skills and the art of communication, you're going to be able to connect to people at the deepest human level. I think that's, what's most important.

Chris Do: Where else can I take this without opening the can of worms again? Because you were talking about communication as it impacts all, everything, entrepreneurship, our relationships with our employees or with our boss. How do we use this information now?

Erwin McManus: I just want to maybe give you like my feedback from my experience with you was I felt like I was experiencing an intersection of a professor, healer, and seer all at the same time.

And I do think it's one of the things that makes you very rare. And I know you can't say you're very rare, but you can accept that. And what makes you rare is that you've developed this by serving people. It's not a technique. When you take it on as a technique, it becomes [00:38:00] a shadow, but when it becomes a part of your essence, it actually becomes a really powerful dynamic.

And so people don't know from you, whether they're walking away with vision, with insight, or with personal healing. And I think that's a part of the power of it. And you say, well, not everyone feels that it's because you don't always operate in one singular frequency. And by the way, just because you have a healer frequency, which I do believe you have, it doesn't mean you're always saying nice things to people.

Because if a person has a cancer and you have to go through a brutal process to help them get better, you'll be more likely to tell them the truth because you want their healing more than you want their acceptance. And so that might be a dynamic, you know, difference there.

Chris Do: You're spot on by the way.

Erwin McManus: Okay.

Chris Do: I sometimes wish I could not tell the truth. And it's a dangerous thing I've learned to regulate myself because it used to be people would show me their design work, which is what I did before this. And they were like, what do you think? And I'm like, here's what you need to hear because other people are going to give you BS, but it's not [00:39:00] going to help you get better.

But by saying that they're not really ready to hear that. And so I create this weird friction. So then I just now ask them what would be most helpful to you. And sometimes they ask me, just look at the colors. And I can say that, but if you really asked me for my true opinion, and I feel like you're honest and sincere, then I would tell you, and it gets me all kinds of trouble.

Erwin McManus: I love that. Oh, see, I love that level of scrutiny. I mean, just think that that level of honesty and truth is so rare in the world that it's, it's incredible, incredible gift. What I do is I ask people, I just need to know how much you want to grow. And they go, well, what do you mean? I said, well, like I could just be kind and just encourage where we're at, or I can press and maybe help you see that there's a lot of development that could happen here because a part of the challenge for you is reading people and knowing it's not my job to help people become what they do not want to become.

Some people just want average branding, you know, and they want your affirmation. And so you have to figure out how do you affirm without, without [00:40:00] not telling them the truth, but no, I think that's a very interesting mix. You know, I just look at it in terms of every relationship in my life. Mariah and Erin, my son and daughter are in their thirties and they live within eight minutes of me and they both work with me in different businesses and they're my best friends.

I think most parents don't have lifelong relationships with their kids because they never learned how to listen to them. They never learned how to hear them and to understand their frequencies and also how to be adaptive in your frequency. My wife, she goes crazy that I'm always optimistic. We've been married 40 years.

And for a lot of years, she would say, I'll try to be more optimistic. I'll try to be more optimistic. And about two years ago, she said, I don't feel any obligation to be optimistic. She goes, I like being negative pessimistic. And she goes, you're just way too optimistic. I just need you sometimes to be negative with me.

And what she's really saying is I need you to understand the way I see the world. And I realized, [00:41:00] oh, I don't want to pause long enough to see the world the way she sees the world, because I feel like it could be a black hole that pulls me in it. It never pulls me in. I actually began to see the world better because of her.

So it's an interesting kind of dynamic that I spent my life learning how to navigate relationships and make them better. And when you look at that interpersonal level, look at that as a, on a leadership level, and you realize, oh, my team, what they need right now is vision, but sometimes it's just too much vision.

No, what my team right now needs is to be challenged. Oh no, but sometimes you can over challenge people who just, I just feel like you're just always sitting on fire. They're never good enough. Like, I mean, really exceptional leaders learn how to access the different frequencies and use them at the right moment and in the right degree.

And so if you could see this almost as a chemical compound and realize I'm an alchemist, I have this alchemy available to me and I need to bring them in in the right [00:42:00] way at the right time with the right people and they can, you know, it will produce magic.

Chris Do: I have a question for you, and it's relating to something in my own personal life that you just said that I just remembered here. So you're the eternal optimist, I think. And your wife has to be concerned about lots of things, and I, I think, because my wife and I have talked about this, because I'm a carefree spirit, I always think everything's going to work out, even when they don't. And she's, has to come in and repair the things that are broken.

And so it's, you know, In a way that through therapy, I started to learn that because I am who I am pulling so far towards one direction, she has to pull equally strong in the other direction. So if I was more concerned and, and careful with my relationships and the things that I'm doing, then she could relax and be the optimist. I want to get your thoughts on that.

Erwin McManus: Yes, if you seem like you don't care, or you're not afraid, or you don't see the problem, she feels like she has to compensate by being more. The difference is that you do see the problem, but you don't see the problem as [00:43:00] terminal. You see it as, as catalytic. And by the way, I think a part of that is, I actually do think you probably are a maven.

And when you're married to someone who's more like a maven, it's a really miserable life. Because you never see the world the way they need you to see the world. And early in our marriage, Kim would fight me on ideas all the time. And then one day she said, I just can't see what you see. So I trust you. I don't trust a single one of your ideas.

But I trust you. And what you have to realize is that she's the one that has to live with blind faith, not you. You're moving into the unknown, into the uncertain, into the mysterious. You're kind of designed to see it. And so you don't even want to live anywhere else. It pulls you. It's like, it's like a siren that moves [00:44:00] you in, you know, to potential failure or disaster.

And she can't see what you see. But she can see you. And so I think sometimes you have to pause long enough so she can see you. And what I mean by that is that you can see her, you can say, hey, I'm not risking everything. This is how much risk I'm taking on. This is what I'm protecting. And with Kim, she has all these projects around the world.

All she really cares about. is to be able to serve the people around the world that she's committed to helping, like she'll say, am I going to have more money for Malawi? I go, yes. She goes, okay, go do your thing. She still buys her clothes and stuff from Walmart and target. She, my wife was an orphan from eight to eighteen.

She lived in poverty. She's never had a single material desire in her life that I know of, but she makes me help her find millions and millions of dollars to, built schools and to help women around the world and to end poverty. And, you know, and so I, I have to stay really creative [00:45:00] so that she can stay really generous. And I think that's a part of it is that the way you see the world makes your marriage challenging because you can't meet at what you see. You have to meet at who you are. That make sense?

Chris Do: Yeah.

Erwin McManus: And then when you do that, you know, she's fine too because she goes, I, you know, I trust you.

Chris Do: Yeah.

Erwin McManus: You know, she just wants to make sure that you're paying attention to things that matter to her. And then when you, when she feels certain in that, then she feels incredible freedom lets you go crazy.

Chris Do: Uh huh. You mentioned the word trust a couple of times and the word love, and there was a bit I watched you speak about that love is easy, trust is hard. Can you expand on that please?

Erwin McManus: Yeah. Yeah, it's, for me, actually, I do find love to be strangely easy. And when we were getting married, what I actually, my inner, the inner voice inside of me said, Kim has never had one person say I love you to her. She's lived in absolute poverty all of her life. [00:46:00] She was abandoned by her parents. And I get the privilege of loving this person. Like, I get to try to convince her that unconditional love exists.

And so a lot of people, when they tell me why they got married, it's always about what they can get out of the marriage. I genuinely got married because I thought, what a gift it would be to love someone like this. And so I've never been disappointed because she's always been worthy of love. And trust is very, very different.

It's like forgiveness and trust. People say, well, I don't want to forgive them, you know, and I go, no, what you, I think what you really, really mean is I don't want to trust them. And you think if you forgive them, you have to trust them. But no, forgiveness is an extension of love. You forgive freely, you trust carefully.

And I think that's a part of the dynamic there. It's like, I think trust is harder because it's so easily lost. But, and I have great studies on this, untrustworthy people don't trust people. [00:47:00] Trustworthy people trust people. So the people who go, there's no one that can be trusted out there. Don't trust them.

Cause the reason they can't find anyone is because they're not one of them, but the people who go, there's trustworthy people everywhere that were actually trustworthy. So I've realized for myself in my life, if I stopped trusting, I've actually lost myself. Not other people. And so I, you know, who do you want to find?

Right. I travel the world. I find hopeful people. I find trustworthy people. I find people full of joy and love. I find compassionate people. And I think out of all the billions on this world, I still will never get to meet all the incredibly beautiful, wonderful people in the world. And so it motivates me to be the best kind of human, because I want to be able to find the best kind of humans. And I know I can only see them if I am one.

Chris Do: There was something else that you also said about relationships where it's easier to say, I love you. It's harder to say, I trust you. So if you go to an event, if you are in a [00:48:00] place where you're a very attractive person and people might come. And that really hit me and it really resonated with like the message. You're right. It's the trusting that we're like, where are you going now? Why are you going there? It's like, But you love me, but do you not trust me and my judgment or my ideas?

Erwin McManus: Well, I think one thing is, love is supposed to be unconditional. Yeah. So when you say, I love you, you're saying something about your posture toward them. When you say, I trust you, you're saying something about their posture towards you, that you believe you can trust them with yourself, with your life, with your dreams, with your hopes. Does that make sense?

Chris Do: Yeah.

Erwin McManus: And my rule when my kids were little was, who would I leave my kids with?

Chris Do: Yeah.

Erwin McManus: And that became like my inner circle. I can say I trust a lot of people, but there's a lot of people, there are only a few people I would let be near my kids when they were little. And only a few I would leave my kids with when I was going to go out on a date with my wife or something like that. Those are the people you really trust.

Because when you trust someone with [00:49:00] innocence, that's the highest level of trust. And as a leader, when you have a team, I don't care if you're hiring managers or you're hiring people that you're saying everyone under their influence or authority or power can trust that person. So I think that, that developing an organization that can be trusted is one of the most important things in the world.

I'm a part of a community in, in L. A. and different parts of the world called Mosaic, and I'm never everywhere, because I can't be. In fact, I'm, I'm at 1 percent of everything, but I have people that I trust with my life. And so I don't have to be in their room. To me, I'm in every room because I have people I trust there.

I don't lose any sleeper in the room. Now they may make a dumb decision, happens all the time. They may make a wrong choice in terms of business or in choice of execution, but I trust who they are. You can fix any problem if you have the right kind of people, [00:50:00] but you cannot fix the organization if you have the wrong people because the decisions aren't the problem.

It's the people making decisions. And I've tried to teach this to my kids and the people who also started businesses. You can manage details or you can manage relationships. And when you choose people you trust, you don't have to manage details anymore. And that's when you're actually free. And I don't want to be more and more and more successful so that I'm parenting more and more people and micromanaging more and more details.

I want to be more successful so that I can be free and other people can be free. And the more you trust people, the more freedom you have.

Chris Do: I have just one quick follow up and then a much more open ended question. Maybe that that'd be a good way to end this. You mentioned shadow. Can you please explain the shadow parts?

Erwin McManus: I wish I could say that we're always all in the light, but I know I'm not always in the light. You know, I know there are shadows inside of me and I fight with them and I wrestle with them and the shadow of a motivators as a [00:51:00] performer. And have you ever listened to someone on stage and you thought, I know what they're saying is right, but some, I don't, I don't know if they're really speaking to me, I think they're performing for me rather than communicating with me.

And you can see that subtly there. And, and what happens oftentimes is motivators are natural communicators. They're just very good at holding an audience because a lot of my team have a motivator gift and I'll have to sit down with them and I'll say, hey, You were so compelling, but you were not authentic.

And I'll say, I want to know how much of yourself you want to give away is it because the greatest gifts you can give people is yourself. And one of the funniest things is my son was speaking when he came back from New York, he'd learned a style in New York that I did not enjoy, because I didn't feel like it was his authentic self.

And one day I kept saying to him, I just need you to be authentic. I just need you to be authentic. I just need you to be authentic. And, and then one day he looked at me, goes, dad, what if my authentic self is inauthentic?[00:52:00]

And now, you know, we do a podcast together and he's so brutally authentic. I'm like, cover it up. But that, that motivators performer, the challenger can become a manipulator. And the commander can become a dictator, the professor can become a demeanor, and the healer can actually become a guru, a person that people turn to them for healing rather than look for healing from within themselves.

And a seer, I mean, I can't remember the exact language, but oh yeah, a seer can become a perfectionist because they think their vision is the only way, and they start micromanaging the details rather than the big picture. And I struggled with the Maven. In fact, when I was writing the book, my team that was working with me said, you got to rewrite the whole chapter on Mavens.

And I said, why? And they said, it's not ringing true. Hardest thing in writing is to tell the truth. Every time I write a book, I have this mantra, tell the truth, tell the truth. It's from Stephen King. [00:53:00] And I realized, ah, I'm not telling the truth because it's me. I'm like being guarded. And you know, so I was like laying out a secondary cause problem, but not a primary cause problem.

You know, and, and there's just something destructive about the shadow of Maven because they can become like a nihilistic and they can they don't know what's true. So they destroy everything that's true. They I know even when I was young and I was in college if you believed in God I would debate with you to make you not believe in God and if you did not believe in God I would debate with you to make you believe in God and I realized I don't really have a position.

I just wanted to change the way they saw reality, which is a very dangerous posture to have. And so it's almost like you can become Thanos. You know, you're the eater of the world. You just want to destroy what everyone believes because you don't know what to believe. So no one deserves to have a belief.

And it kind of put that the dark side of a, of a maven as a, as a person who's a nihilist, we're just destroying [00:54:00] what we know, but not giving us what needs to be known. So those are like the seven shadows that, they're an interplay in life, and, and you can see them, and sometimes we can go back and forth, especially in our interpersonal relationships, especially when we're with someone all the time, like a husband or wife or our kids, because it's hard to always be in your light, you know, and I would just say the way to move towards your light is always, is being motivated by love.

And when you're motivated by self, you go to your shadows. When you're motivated by love, you go towards your light. And that's how you express those. It's like the motivator who cares about helping people grow in their own self belief, it is filled the room with light, but the motivator who desperately needs to be loved and affirmed in the stage is really for their need be affirmed and be important. They become a performer. And so you can just see that you can, you know, ask yourself, am I motivated by love? Am I motivated by self? And you can know if you're [00:55:00] moving towards your shadow or toward the light.

Chris Do: I love the way you explain things and how you make very complicated things fairly simple to understand. So that all of a sudden when you started describing the shadow, I'm mapping myself, my friends, and they're like, oh, that explains a lot because they took the light and they went to the self and then went into the darkness. And it's like, I know friends that are going to listen to this podcast. I'm not shooting anything at anybody.

You, you check in with yourself, but all of a sudden things become really clear. I have this thing that I'm going to talk about and it's something I really believe in my heart. And it's a expression from a quote from Picasso. I hope I get this right. That the meaning of life is to discover your gift and the purpose is to give it away.

And I think when I found what I think my gift is I'm more fulfilled. I'm, I'm filled with energy and it's just like a never ending battery. I feel that way about you. I just wanted to know, do you feel that about yourself? And if so, I want to ask you another question.

Erwin McManus: No, no, absolutely. In fact, I love [00:56:00] Picasso. And I think that's exactly right. You know, when, when you begin to give your life away, you're not searching for happiness anymore. And you're just, you're just basking in it. It's almost as if you didn't realize you'd found it. You know, the moment you stop searching for it, it's there. And I, and I do think for me, you know, I'm in my twenties, I became a follower of Jesus and, and when I began to realign my life, saying I'm going to give my life to help other people, it just changed everything for me. What was your question?

Chris Do: So it's right, right around 20?

Erwin McManus: Yeah.

Chris Do: Okay. So the thing, how I console myself at night when I see you speak is like you're powerful. I feel like you just made it up right before you got on stage. Like it didn't require the kind of torture that I have to go through. And I just, I'm in awe. And I, and I remember you telling me, well, I've been doing this for 40 years. So I'm like on year 10. So I feel like I still have another 30 years to work towards this goal. So it's just a beautiful thing that it [00:57:00] seems to me like you found this gift very early in your life and you were able to hone in on it.

You didn't deny it. You didn't run away from it. You didn't try to suppress it. And you did this thing and your light is the stuff that's emanating. And I can just see that people are just so drawn to you and the things that you have to say. So it's a beautiful thing to see it and to recognize it. Is there any advice you would give to people who are still maybe not in the dark, but in the gray, or they're not quite sure. There's questioning their life and their life decisions. Is there anything you can say to them as they're listening into this on their walk or at their computer that maybe this is their moment to see that light in themselves?

Erwin McManus: Yeah, I think one of the challenges is that when you see someone who you perceive to be very successful or they found their path or have a deep sense of identity, we think, oh, I want that soul.

We try to emulate that and that's the wrong thing to emulate. You don't want to emulate their outcome. You want to emulate how they found their compass. And for me, it was an intersection of [00:58:00] unexpected gifting. Like I didn't know I could communicate. Like I was a super introverted, very quiet, very shy person.

I think before I began speaking, I felt I had something to say. And I felt like I had to find a way to translate that to the world. And so once I had a sense of, of a must my brother and I brother Alex would talk about the one who must and I love that phrase. So like I think that when you find your must it's not about money.

It's not about success. It's not about affirmation It's not about anybody else. This is just what I must do and when you do that things begin to fall into place. And Kim and I, cause we've been together so long, it's hard for me to even think of adulthood without, you know, my wife, but I had a must from the age of 20 or so, and I just like, I wanted to make a contribution to make the world better.

And I just felt like I would do that poor rich so for a huge season in our life we slept on the floor. I mean probably 10 years of my life. I [00:59:00] never made more than 15, 000 a year I mean I'd lived in pretty dismal poverty in that sense. I never felt unhappy. I never felt a victim. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to be enjoying life so much.

I mean, here we are, like, we are dirt poor. We can't afford a bed. We're sleeping on the floor with blankets. And we're exhilarated, joy of being alive. And we get up every day excited to live. And ours was an incredible romance. And, you know, it's like, and I never had a thought of, why me? And then I remember one day after maybe being married 10 years, I said, honey, I think that I feel like I have permission to go create some wealth. And she said, you're capable of creating wealth.

Chris Do: She just married a poor guy, you know,

Erwin McManus: and, uh, and I said, yeah, I've always, I've always known how to create wealth. I just never gave myself [01:00:00] permission because I was going to be a monastic. That was like, my whole image was I'm a monastic, you know, and she goes, well, if you're capable of it. It'd be great if you would just get at it, you know, and, you know, but it's funny is that each time in our life, I've almost felt like I needed permission somehow, but it's never changed what made me happy.

So when people, if you're listening and you're like, I just can't find a reason to live, or I just don't know how to find my purpose, like just find the most good you can do. Find out what you're pretty good at. And go do good. And as you do more and more good at what you're good at, you just start getting better at it.

I didn't know that starting in the highest crime rate, murder rate area of the United States, speaking to people, they're trying to help them out of poverty would be the incubator from which I would develop the skills to speak to nearly million into millions of people around the world [01:01:00] and to have that as my career.

When I was doing that, I wasn't planning for this, I found incredible satisfaction and joy in it. When I was speaking to 20 people, it was the most important thing in the world. And I actually think that's the key when you do the small things as if It is the most important thing in the world you develop the skills necessary to do the most important things in the world.

Chris Do: What a great way to end our conversation. I'm excited for when this book is coming out. When is it coming out?

Erwin McManus: It's coming out August 8th, 2024.

Chris Do: We'll make sure to include the links in the description. So be sure you guys check that out.

Erwin McManus: That'd be great. And there's also an assessment with it.

Chris Do: Okay.

Erwin McManus: That if people want to take the assessment, figure out there's seven frequencies in the order of them we make that available too.

Chris Do: Okay. So then I can verify if what you said is true and I feel like what you said is true. So now I'm just going to confirm it. Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you. Thanks very much for being so much. And I would love to have more conversation with you, but that's it for this episode. [01:02:00] And if people want to find out more about you, where do they go?

Erwin McManus: Go to my Instagram. Erwin McManus and there's a link there.

Chris Do: Okay.

Erwin McManus: That'd be great.

Chris Do: And you're a prolific creator because there's content coming out from you all the time.

Erwin McManus: I love to create. Yeah.

Chris Do: Yeah. And, and I've encouraged my friends before, and if, if you heard me say this many, many times before, and if you've never done it, this would be the one time you do need to do it. Go check out Erwin's content on Instagram. There's like powerful nuggets, ways of reframing things and just making you or helping you to understand the world in a different way. In case you're stuck somewhere. Thanks very much.

Erwin McManus: Thank you so much. I'm Erwin Raphael McManus and you're listening to The Futur.

The Futur: Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already subscribed to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week, The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sanborn [01:03:00] for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts.

It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com and you'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and the creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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