Jule Kim: Several minutes ago I asked you, you hear certain questions over and over, right? Like how to charge for a logo, how much to charge for a logo, the questions you get all the time from your clients. Are key indicators you should be creating content around those questions.

Chris Do: Hey everybody. Today for this podcast, we're doing a second episode because the first one was so good with my friend, Jule Kim. And since speaking to her last time, her affirmations deck, "Self Love Affirmations and Reflections", I highly recommend it. It's super freaking awesome. But of course, I would expect nothing less of her.

And many of you have listened to that first episode, know her as a certified life coach. So this will be a little bit of pivot. But before I do that, just make sure you pick up a deck. It's available everywhere from Amazon to Urban Outfitters, local bookstores. We love bringing on to our show, smart guests. And we support our guests by buying the products they make and because we love them, that's it. So without further ado, Jule, welcome to the show.

Jule Kim: Thank you, Chris. Thank you for that plug. It's great to see you again.

Chris Do: Yes. New year, new you. So we're going to do a little pivot today. We're not going to do more life coaching stuff. We'll sneak some of that in there. But here's the weird thing. I've known Jule for some time now, and she is one of these rare individuals who can jump from career to career. What she sets her mind to, she does, and she does well, and she excels. So her last pivot to me was kind of a like an eyebrow raiser, like, what are you doing, Jule?

She's very good at doing something which we're going to talk about, which is SEO. And in a search based world right now, SEO is a really important driver as to how strangers or new customers find you. But she decides to do the very hard thing and go into a deep dive and spend, I think, A year or so into becoming a certified life coach, but I said to Jule, Jule, can't you just teach designers how to be found? You're so good at that. So I think that's why we're having this conversation. Do I have this about right?

Jule Kim: If I remember correctly, you said, what are you doing? You could be sleeping on mattresses of cash.

Chris Do: Yes. It's very comfortable by the way, when you sleep, when your head falls back and it's received by a pillow of cash, a mattress of cash and like, Oh, I sleep so well at night.

Jule Kim: Yes, there is something that is comforting about just having that financial independence and abundance. It's nice and no switching to coaching while it was the right move for sure. It was very hard. It's probably one of the hardest moves I've ever made. But I am happy where I am, but there is a part of me that does miss talking about marketing, content, marketing, SEO.

And when I see people, creatives, designers, photographers, all of the people in this bucket and what they're not doing, like just the simplest things, even you, your website every now and then I like to go into thefutur.com and just sort of check out what's happening. You guys change up your landing pages and your website all the time. And I'm like, I'm, You guys, you guys could be doing this, this one little thing. And then, you know, that's when I call you up. I'm like, Chris, what are you guys doing?

Chris Do: Then I ask you, please don't do it. I have enough problems. Please don't raise up any more problems than I'm totally aware of. Okay, let's get into it. We've set the intention for 2024. as the year for us, for all of us, to focus on generating higher quality leads. Higher quality leads means we have more prospects to talk to. It means that they're looking for us versus us chasing them. And we're going to be able to command a higher price, hopefully a price premium.

And with leads, you could pretty much do anything. You could hire more people. You could work less hours. You can pivot to other businesses. As long as you have enough people. high quality leads. And so with that, if we're talking about SEO, first of all, what is SEO and why should we care?

Jule Kim: So if you're not familiar with SEO, it means "search engine optimization". And if you're not familiar, that probably still doesn't help. It's just literally, how do you get found on search engines like Google. And Google, while it's probably the most famous search engine in the world, there are other search engines like YouTube, Pinterest, Amazon, Etsy. So a lot of the sites you go on to just buy things are also search engines, and people never think about that.

But there are some common patterns to how you look for the thing that you're looking for. So some people, Our browsers, which is very interesting to me, they'll come onto a website and they'll just start clicking through things. They'll scroll up and down. They want to explore the lay of the land. But I think more than half of the people now today, they just want to go to the search box and find the thing, right?

So they start typing in words and they're looking for something specific. Now, where this gets interesting is there are different categories to the types of things they're putting into the search box. And when we talk about SEO, it's the work that you can do on your end so you can match up to the words that people are putting into the search box.

So then your name, your business, your page, even your social media page, those start surfacing on page one of Google. And that's where the magic happens.

Chris Do: So it's like you helping yourself make it easier for people to find the things they're looking for. So you want to be intentional about it. You want to make sure that the words you're using are the same words they're using because if there's a disconnect.

Then basically you're just wasting your time and your energy. What are some of the foundational principles that we need to understand before we do a deep dive into like, what are the tactical things that they can do?

Jule Kim: So I would say at the very base level foundation is there are three main approaches to SEO and they're not separate approaches. They all go together. So kind of think of it like the three legs of a tripod. So they all support, you know, the thing that's holding up at the top, which is whatever it is, you're trying to be found for so if you're a speaker or you're a designer, if you're a coach, whatever that thing is now, those three legs, there is content. So literally, what words are you putting on to your site? What other types of content as well? So words and text are not the only type of content. You have videos, you have images, you can embed audio files. And then the other two categories I call speed and also popularity. And of those three categories, we're probably going to spend most of our time talking about content because that's what's purely in your control today.

You don't have to rely on other people for content. I mean, some of you may argue otherwise, but, you know, if you put your effort, your time and energy into this, you could create content today without needing help from other people. Whereas the technical side, which is the the speed part. You need your website to start loading fast enough.

And so speed and the technical infrastructure of your website definitely matters to Google. So if we say there are two or three websites and they're pretty much equal in terms of the quality of the stuff on there, and you're all in the same category, let's say you're all three speaker coaches, but one of them loads in two seconds while the other two load 30 seconds or more, you know, in today's day and age, who's going to wait around for something to load for 30 seconds, you know, we're out of the dial up AOL days where, you know, we're sitting there waiting for like the you know, and like, you're just waiting and you're like, God forbid, if there are too many images on a page and the page just It's loads like, you know, tiny section by section, people don't want to wait anymore.

So this is where speed really matters. You need to have your, your stuff together on the technical side. Now popularity, I'll just touch upon this for just to teach you a little bit. When you hear people say backlinks, this is what I'm calling popularity. So if you've ever seen one of the typical teenage movies or TV shows out there, something like Mean Girls, you have a new kid coming to the school.

And they make friends with the popular kids in school. What happens to that new kid? Suddenly they're also popular. It's a very similar concept. And so when you have other websites pointing links to your website, that starts to help you gain traction. It signals to Google and to search engines in general, Hey, other people out there trust this website enough to put a link and point their traffic to this website. That matters a lot.

But in order for you to have that, then those people have to have some kind of relationship with you. Sometimes if you create content that's just useful, period, or something they like about it, like you, The Futur has thousands and thousands of backlinks. You probably don't even know most of the people, you know, throwing links your way, and that's amazing.

So when you create content that's just valuable by itself, that's what will start to happen. And so some of this will naturally kind of, you know, happen on its own. So content, you know, is a little bit like what all boats rise, right? When you've got the tide going. But that's essentially it, those three areas.

Chris Do: So even though if we don't know what we're doing, the fact that there are a lot of other websites pointing to us and, and I understand that not all backlinks are the same, higher authorities or verified sites, like usually news publications, ones that are verified, those backlinks count for a lot more than the hundreds of fans that you might have linking to your page, is that right?

Jule Kim: So this is what's interesting. I was reading up on this a while back, and some, I guess, SEO experts would actually differ on that. And so if you kind of think of your, your juice, like the, the thing you're passing on to other sites, like when you put a link out to somebody else, you kind of think of it like currency.

And if you're just throwing your dollars in every which direction, it starts to count for a little bit less. And so this is where if you, if you actually got a link from somebody who's more like a medium, small, but like trusted authority still, it could actually count for more than like a link from forbes.com, but it really depends. So in your case, you've got, I swear, I think I saw you had over 20,000 backlinks pointing to thefutur.com, which is phenomenal. This is why you even have the domain authority you do. And so domain authority is a score. Google or various, you know, tools out there will kind of slap on your website to say, you know, this, this is the ranking you have in general.

This indicates the trust level, your expertise level. And so backlinks will shoot that score up a lot higher than just content by itself. But again, you know, content is like the indirect lever for getting those backlinks.

Chris Do: I'm not 100 percent sure I understood the metaphor analogy about the cash, the currency that you have. So when the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times puts a link on their site to something that we wrote, does that count for the same or does it count for more? Or is it depends on how many of those links that we're sending out?

Jule Kim: It depends on how many of the links they're sending out. So if we were to just look at the authority behind the person, right?

So again, if we look at like the popularity in school, it's going to count for a lot more if the popular kid says, this kid is cool. I like this kid versus some nobody, nobody knows in that school saying this kid is cool. It's not going to count for the same. And you know, that's essentially what you're kind of talking about.

Chris Do: I don't know what the number of backlinks we have. I will take your word because your memory for this is better because I haven't even looked at it. That's how much I care about this stuff. But I know it's very important the team works on this in creating blog posts and articles based on our podcast or YouTube and also just writing pieces of content.

Now, you said the content thing is, of all the three things, the three legged tripod is the thing that we have control over. It's possibly the only thing we have control over because speed, we can optimize our site, I think. But it is what it is. Popularity is like you can't control people backlinking to you other than saying let's swap backlinks, but whatever.

I think you can pay for it too. We have a lot of people reaching out to us saying we'd like to write a guest post for you with a backlink to our site. How much do you charge for that? So literally there are people out there who see you as an authority who want the backlink from you and you can make some money on that if you want to.

More often than not, we just turn them down because it's not a product or anything that we're interested in. So we, we tend to just save our audience from, oh, that was a paid post. Wasn't it? So when it comes to content, what's the idea? And then let's get into the nitty gritty.

Jule Kim: But one thing that I wanted to touch upon in like the scenario you just started up. Yes. The way that people are approaching you, that's considered like a fair approach. It's better than, you know, hiring some link farm in the Philippines to do some really shady like black hat tactics, where they're just placing links to your site from garbage other sites. So this is where it's pretty funny.

Sometimes people, I guess, who have too much time on their hands or whatever, they will actively sabotage competitor sites by doing that. They'll buy like those shady links to point to their competitors and to bring like down that trust score. And so this is where, you know, I keep saying if the popular kid in school says you're cool, that's great.

But now imagine if the popular kids only start saying everybody's cool. Does that opinion hold as much weight? Not so much because you're gonna be like, well, they're saying that about everybody. So then maybe not so trustworthy So that's the thing to pay attention to. Okay, so sorry going back to content.

So just from a very high level content is stuff that you're going to put on your website that demonstrates, you know, what you're talking about, right, that you are an authority in your field. You're an expert. And when you show these things, this is what the purpose of showing your trustworthy enough to hire in some way or for someone to buy something from you, someone to even form a relationship with you.

So that's the literal content that you're going to put on your site. But if we back up a step and we ask, how do you even know where to go with that? This is when now we're getting into content marketing. So content marketing is the concept that you're using your content to attract people to you. So versus something like ads where you're pushing your content, like buy me, buy this product.

You know, this is great. It'll solve all your problems. Your content marketing, the stuff you put on your website, even the stuff you can put on your social media or the videos you make for YouTube, the pins you put on Pinterest, these are all designed to showcase what you know, and then you're putting that out somewhere.

Now, how you do that from a couple of strategic points is you want to address keywords. And so remember I said keywords are the stuff you're just literally looking at what people are typing into the search box. There are different categories of keywords. So you want to think through this strategically.

There are what I call the money keywords. As in, the user who's typing in a search phrase, they're actually fairly close on the timeline of their journey of wanting to hire or buy something. So if you're familiar with like the funnel concept, these are people near the bottom of the funnel. So when I say money keywords, these are people who are typing on a job title of some kind.

So they're looking for an imposter syndrome speaker. They may type on imposter workshop. Which are the things that I do. For you, these are the people I know. You went after typography, so typography course. Brand strategy fundamentals course. So when you have someone typing in that kind of thing and you look at it and you try to imagine the person who's sitting behind their keyboard, their computer, you ask yourself, why are they typing that in?

You can just look at these keywords and kind of tell they're probably looking for hiring or buying something right now, like very soon in the next couple of months. Now, the next level up are people who are searching on just, I would say, a product or a service, but it's not so clear. Very classic example, high school senior photo examples.

So that's someone who's sort of midway through. They're looking for further clarification on what all is out there. They want to see what that landscape looks like. What kind of styles of high school senior photos are there? But they may not necessarily be ready to buy. And the other kicker here is it could also be your competitors.

So if you're a photographer, a lot of times, you know, your competitors are generating these things because they're trying to scope out the competition. They want to see what their other people are doing. Now, if you go one more layer up, this is now the top of the funnel. This is people who are just, they want to know something.

And there is no real line of connection between that versus wanting to buy. There often isn't, which is why that's the long game. And so this is where I'm saying this is where we want to target all throughout that funnel phase. Now, in terms of keywords, what's really, really interesting is there was a professor at a university like a long time ago who ran a study and it just boggles my mind that he did this.

But he essentially reviewed, I think all the search terms over one website over like a week or two. So we're talking, these are people who reviewed hundreds of thousands of keywords that came into that website and then they started categorizing them. And what was really neat is what they found was there were just really three main categories to the keywords.

So first you had around 10 percent of what's called branded keywords. And these are keywords where people are searching on something where they already know what the thing is. So for example, if someone typed into Google Chris Do, that's an example of a branded keyword. If they typed into Google The Futur, same thing.

They already know the idea of you or your company in their head. They saw you somewhere and they remembered the name. And they just want to know more about you or your company. They maybe want to explore, like, what are you about? Maybe is there something they can buy from you? Whatever. The next category over is that whole product service description, you know, product service job title.

So what's really interesting is those two categories together only make up 20 percent of searches. The whopping 80 percent of searches left in that pie are just topic keywords. So people literally looking up, what is brand strategy? How do you hard boil an egg? How do you get, you know, a soft boiled egg?

Why is it sunny? How many days of sun does Seattle get a year? Just random stuff, right? You've probably searched on a bunch of stuff. So if you sort of look at that pie of keywords, like the way people search, your money keywords are in that 20%, right? The people who already know who you are and the people who are looking for the thing that you sell.

But the real opportunity is in that 80 percent where you're probably not generating content that teaches about what you know. So very classic examples. You probably get a million questions all the time, the same questions from people. Do you have examples of that?

Chris Do: Yes. How much should I charge for a logo?

Jule Kim: There you go. If you don't already have content on your website, you should be creating that. I'm pretty sure you have videos. But the interesting thing about you is you have a ton of video content on YouTube, and you have a ton of content on all the platforms, but you don't actually have a lot of content on your website. And this is where we could close the gap for you.

Chris Do: So basically, depending on where somebody is in the marketing funnel, you have to target different keywords. So if they're problem unaware, then you need to educate them on that. Like what's the problem they're having. Then they go into the solution they're not, they're not aware of what solutions are available. And then only once you get down to the product unaware, it's like, this is the product, this is how long and how much it costs. So your keywords. are going to be a little bit different for each one of these, depending on where they are on the journey.

So if my ultimate course is a typography course, then things related to that, the keywords for that will make a lot of sense. So let me see if I understand this right. So if it's a problem unaware thing, it could be like, you struggle to choose the right typefaces to lay out things. Do you think your layouts are interesting?

Are they boring? Are they hard to understand? Do you want to be a better designer? Some broader kind of topics. So those, those are keywords I would target. So once they're aware that actually graphic design is the way to get out of this and then well, graphic design or your communication skills as it relates to creating visuals are going to be dependent on a couple of things. One of which is learning typography is one of the answers.

Jule Kim: It could be. And in your example, I would say you could go even a step up in the funnel. So I think the examples you threw out are people who are even already aware of typeface in general, right? If we're talking about people who are in your audience, the ones who have agencies, brand strategists, or I forget, who all ever needs to even, who care about typography in general, it could be something so simple as this is why your lead magnet on your site, like nobody signs up for it because they can't read the freaking type on that lead magnet, like the pop up that comes up on the website. This is why your lead magnet isn't converting. So there needs to be a connection to what your audience, what your typical customer is wanting to solve.

Not even solve. These are the things that they're seeing, but they haven't yet made a connection that that's even a problem. They're like, that's weird. But is this, like, is this even a problem? That's on you now. Okay, so if we're talking about problem aware, solution aware, there's the unaware phase. And you, you just even want to talk about like the weird things that people are seeing, but don't quite understand that this is something they should or even could solve for.

Chris Do: I figured out what my keywords are. Now what do I need to do?

Jule Kim: So let's say you have your keywords. And before we even assume, you know, you have your keywords, you have to find your keywords. And I'll give you like some examples of easy ways to find keywords. So you've noticed when you start typing into Google or YouTube, as you start typing, there's like a list that appears below the autocomplete list with suggestions.

Those are all keywords. So if you don't want to invest any money and you just want to start with the low hanging fruit, start there, the auto complete list, or you type in a search into Google, and then once that page pops up, you scroll to the very bottom and then there's all these related searches.

Those are keywords, so easy ways to sort of broaden your scope and see what else is out there that would make sense for me to also target. Now, when you start building the keywords, I'm going to say something here that I think a lot of people don't know, is you want to be very careful of making sure that the keywords you're targeting are actually clusters.

So very classic example is when I looked at wedding photographer when I was teaching an SEO workshop, wedding photographer was the search. But under wedding photographer, there were about eight different ways of people all searching for the concept of basically how much does a wedding photographer cost.

And it was wedding photographer average cost. wedding photographer packages. So there is just very many different ways, all getting at the idea of cost. Those are all the pieces you want to pull out and put into your keyword list. So as you're building keywords, you literally want to create a list, pull up a spreadsheet or, you know, a Word doc, whatever, and then start building what I'm calling these topic clusters.

I would say if you want to keep it simple, you don't want to overwhelm yourself, you don't want to go crazy, but you want to make like a strong start to this, start with the money keywords. So those keywords that I talked about, what are the labels that people are searching on to try and find someone like you?

So brand strategy is actually a classic example where there's a mismatch. Y'all call yourselves brand strategists, but the average person out there, they don't know what the hell that means. But the average person out there is like, I don't like how my website looks. Thanks. I'm raising my hand, but this is not an invitation to pitch me, please don't.

But the average person out there is like, they're not happy with their website. They're ashamed to hand out their business cards at networking functions. They're ashamed to even share their website with people because they don't want people to look at it because they feel embarrassed. So these people, that's the customer journey I'm talking about.

You want to capture what those people are searching on at that phase because remember they don't know that y'all brand strategists could solve this problem. All they know is they don't like their website. They feel like it doesn't represent them. It doesn't capture their essence. This is where you want to start building those keywords.

Okay, once you have your keywords, let's assume you've got a list, you feel good, you've got around 20 keywords. Remember 20 keyword clusters, whatever, you now want to look at your website and start systematically targeting what you're doing with those keywords. That means every page on your website that is visible to Google should have a keyword that's the main target on that page.

And so, number one, when you look at a page. What does it have? Ideally a title. And I swear to God this is even where a ton of creatives, especially designers, often don't even have a title on the page. So then ask yourself, how does Google know what this page is about? If it has no freaking title, imagine if you went shopping at a store and the store just had all their stuff like tossed in a pile in the middle of the store, how would you know what you're even in there for?

So this is what I want you to start thinking about. You want to organize the content on your page into little areas, you know, think of it like a well organized pantry. You've got food here, you've got food there, but like, what are the categories? So on your website, your website has a title overall. So if you were to go onto Google and we say, huh, I saw this Chris Do guy speak at Adobe max and you Google Chris Do The Futur.

And then what's going to pop up is The Futur. And then whatever you see in that blue text, right on Google, that's the site title. So that's the first place you need to pay attention to. So for your keyword, the number one money keyword is going to be that label. that people call you. So you could say brand strategist, but you could also say something else.

Whatever that something else that people out there are looking for. You want to do both. Okay. The natural language part, but then also the thing that you're actually called. So the site has a title, but every page has a title. And now on every page you have sections. So very clear place that I see a lot of mistakes with designers because designers tend to be much more visually motivated.

They care about making the site look pretty. They don't want too many words. And then they also care about having flair to the site. So the key place on the homepage of the site. That H1 header tends to be the biggest missed opportunity other than the site title itself. So the header where you're trying to say something clever instead of saying who you are.

So if you're a brand strategist, you should say brand strategist. If you're a photographer, if you're a maternity photographer, you should say that. It should not be your name. It should not be your company name. It should not be a clever phrase where you're trying to make yourself look cool. It should just say what it is you are or the product or service you sell.

So same thing, it's the same concept. You want to go down the page, and then you want to look at each of the sections you're labeling down the page. And ideally, each of those sections will have keywords, something that makes it clear, that relates back. And I know this sounds really dry. I see you, Chris. I see your face. You're like, oh,god. The purpose of doing this is so that you tell Google what this site is about.

Chris Do: Jule's going really deep, and when my wife talks to me about numbers, and Ben talks to me about numbers, Conversion ratios. And now Jule's talking about SEO. I'm like, oh, oh, okay. Stay focused. Let's go.

Jule Kim: You're like, I regret asking her for this episode.

Chris Do: Okay. Small disclaimer, if you're driving and you're feeling a little drowsy, pull over to the side of the road or roll down the windows and get some cold, fresh air. Okay. Back to our program.

Jule Kim: Okay. If you're saying your brain is melting, I'm going to give the audience a pause. Why don't you tell me where people are probably going to struggle?

I mean, I have my ideas. But you tell me.

Chris Do: Well, we have to rewind the tape to the beginning here.

Jule Kim: You're like, I wasn't even listening. I mean,

Chris Do: you're like, uh, keywords. Uh, let's just start with that. First, like, I thought it was also only come up with one set of keywords. You're like multiple keywords for different phases within the funnel.

They have to figure that part out. They're going to need some help there. But you actually explained it in a very simple to understand way. So I'm reflecting on me telling other people, you got to work on your SEO game. There's. There's probably two or three more conversations. I have to go a little bit deeper and just not say identify keywords, but where are they in the, in the stream, in the journey, where are they in the funnel and what words did they come up with?

So people are going to struggle with that because we use language that we understand, but not what the audience is searching for. That's usually the biggest problem.

Jule Kim: Yes. So I think what would be helpful here is if I give a real life example. So I'm going to go with photography since that's, you know, I work with a lot of photographers.

You were a photographer once too. Yeah, exactly. I was a photographer. And so I was a headshot photographer. Now, if you think of somebody at the very beginning edges, of their customer journey. So the customer journey is just literally at what point do they go from being la la like in their own world to eventually ending up on a headshot photographer's doorstep saying, I need photos.

That's all that is. Okay. So don't think it's something scary or complicated. It's just how do they eventually end up getting to hire that photographer? So you remember, like you have to realize. people don't just say, Oh, I want photos. Most people aren't like influencer models who just love having beautiful photos of themselves.

Most people have to have a need that triggers that desire. So for photos, you have tons of objections. Most people don't like being in front of the camera. And even if they tolerate being in front of the camera, that doesn't mean they're going to take a good photo. So you've already got objections of, I hate being in front of the camera.

My photos are fugly, blah, blah, blah. So they don't want to get photos taken, but then some need arises. There's suddenly going to be a speaker at a conference and then they're asked for a photo to place on that website. They're like, ah, so then what happens? They're like, husband, can you take a photo of me?

Or friend, will you take a photo of me? If they have a photographer friend, they're going to go to that person. But usually it doesn't work out. Unless their photographer friend is really great, you know, as a professional, but husband, heck no, my husband, you would think being married to a photographer, he'd be better at this, but no, totally like one of the worst.

So there's some period of suffering where they try to do it themselves. It doesn't work out. So then they might, they may start looking up guides, how to take a good selfie. They're like, screw these other people, I can't see myself, let me try to take it on my own. So then, how to take a good selfie, is an article.

They try that, that also doesn't work. And then, they finally enter like the real funnel, where they realize, I don't have the skills to do this, and it's really important that I have a photo I'm not ashamed of. Then they start looking for a photographer. So that's the kind of journey I'm talking about. You have to really know your customer and understand where the fork's in the road.

So you will have some of the people who actually the selfie turns out great or the spouse taking the photo of themselves. It's fine. And that's where their journey ends. They don't make it to your door, but there are so many people Where it fails, right? Step one fails, step two fails, and eventually they're like, I need a pro.

That's the person you should target. So if we're talking about top of the funnel awareness, that top of the funnel would be how to take a good selfie. Or how to take a good photo of your spouse for their LinkedIn headshot. This is what makes a good LinkedIn headshot. This is the kind of content I'm talking about you could be placing on your website today if you're a photographer.

Same thing with maternity or family photographers. What's the number one complaint people don't want to take family photos? It's such a freaking hassle. Their husband is grumpy, they've got little kids, they maybe have pets, everything's going haywire. So then maybe the article or the content you're placing is how to choose photos so y'all look cohesive.

You actually look pretty together. How to get your cranky husband to the family photo session. How to make your toddlers want to put on their socks. Like really simple things. And so this is where several minutes ago I asked you, you hear certain questions over and over, right? Like how to charge for a logo, how much to charge for a logo. The questions you get all the time from your clients are key indicators you should be creating content around those questions.

Chris Do: That makes sense.

Jule Kim: Okay.

Chris Do: You know, the problem is, people hear, Well, but I'm not a photographer. So there's that abstraction of the example that you gave as it applies to them. But it makes a lot of sense to me.

Jule Kim: Yeah. And I get it. Not everybody who's listening to this episode is a photographer. But there is a similar journey your client goes through to try and figure out eventually We're not talking about the other people who are never meant to be your clients. We're talking about the people who believe in paying for this work because they don't want to have to deal with it themselves. That's the person you really need to understand.

The Futur: It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Chris Do: Are you committed to making 2024 your best year in business? We want to help you make it happen with expert guidance, a supportive community, and exclusive trainings. The Futur Pro Membership. Was created to give you everything you need to take your business to the next level. Go to thefutur.com/pro to learn more and join us inside. Okay. Back to the conversation.

The Futur: And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do: I know the problem. I know the problem now. My people gather around the fire and we'll steal the joke. An elder is going to speak here. So gather on the fire, buddy. So I think the problem is whatever it is that you do, you assume everybody knows everything they need to know about you and they already have the problem.

They've looked into solutions and now they just need to know how long and how much. And so then you create content for that last little bit. But what Jule has told us to do is to rewind the tape, go all the way to the beginning, to the unaware, like, I don't even know what kind of problem I have, and just think through their eyes and not your own, like, what is it that they need to know before they even get to know that they need you?

And just map that out in a logical, linear sense, okay? You're gonna go through certain phases, maybe there's three, you can map it out probably to three, maybe more if you wish, but three's a pretty good number. Where are they at the very beginning? They have a problem. And the problem has many potential solutions for.

And then if you can understand each problem, then you can write content that addresses them where they're at in the journey towards becoming a potential customer of yours. I think that's it. Rewind the tape. Empathize. Use your imagination to look at the world through their eyes and think like, what is it I'm going through right now?

What is My world look like what is some pain that I'm experiencing around whatever it is that I hope to then get a solution for and you work towards that. So people do think they're ugly. So people think they don't have time or they think an iPhone is a good enough camera. So you should go through all those iterations.

So for let's say, I know what we can do. There are a lot of people in our audience that are probably logo identity designers. So they, they design really beautiful logos. They create an identity system. And what would this process look like for them if they were to try to nurture them along a journey?

What would the beginning phases be?

Jule Kim: Well, I don't know the audience for the logo identity designer, but like what's literally the first point that that customer starts to think they need a logo, like what triggers that? It's usually they want a website, something like that, right? They want a website.

They're like, Oh, I should have a logo. But then at that point that I should have a logo. Most people at this phase are like, let me just slap something up as a placeholder. And then this would be an opportunity for you to create content around why that's a mistake. Why you don't want just any logo out there.

You could spawn off other content pieces, even if you do have a logo that you like and you care about. Why you shouldn't be using your logo as the profile image on Instagram or on LinkedIn. The difference between hiring someone on Fiverr for a logo design versus someone who's more premium. Why do these things matter?

And so if you're the logo identity designer, you know in your head probably three to five common objections, the things that people complain about of why they don't want to hire you. Each of those objections are places for you to create content and do research around keywording. So literally, why should I have a logo?

Why should I pay for a premium logo? And so for every website you should be answering four basic questions.

What is it? Okay, so in this case, you're making logos. Who is it for? This is where a lot of people drop the ball. They don't actually define who their thing is for. They kind of leave it up to the person to figure that out for themselves, which is a huge mistake. So you want to define, you're like, no, my logos aren't for the person who only wants to pay like 20 bucks.

Clearly not, you know, my logo is for the person who really cares about capturing their essence or something like that. Whatever it is, your typical spiel on why you should have a premium logo. I don't know.

Chris Do: You say that so dismissively, Jule. It's cutting a hole in the heart of every listener who can identify with that. Whatever you monkeys think is important, use those words.

Jule Kim: Whatever you think is important, but use the words that people are searching on. So remember, you gotta back this up. You can't just pull this out of your head, which is the mistake I see over and over and over. Especially with creatives. So creatives care so much about their creative flair, their creative personality.

They forget to match it up with what the client is looking for, what the client thinks is important to them. And this is the work for SEO and content marketing. You want to create that bridge between you and them. Okay, so what is it? Who is it for? How does it work? So another piece of content, right? Like, how does the logo design process work?

Do you know how much trust you would build with people if you just explained what your work process is? Because remember, if you're asking people to give you their hard earned dollars, they want to know what they're getting for that. And not just what they're getting, but they want to know that you're easy enough to work with.

You're not going to be like one of those artistic, creative snobs that makes them feel like garbage for having plebeian tastes or something, you know? It's like, they want to know they're going to be taken care of. So you describe how you work, what that process looks like, how long it'll take, basic questions.

And then lastly, I know this is going to be like throwing a grenade into like a barrel, but I'm a strong advocate of putting how much it costs. You don't have to put like an exact dollar amount, but you should put at least a minimum place, right? Starting at, starting at 10,000 dollars, 20,000. Starting at 2,000. Whatever your service or product actually costs, give them a starting point so they can start to feel safety.

Chris Do: I'm surprised you didn't say why, like why it matters. So you said what, what is it? Who is it for? How does it work? How much does it cost? Yeah. No, why does it matter?

Jule Kim: I'm pretty sure I hit why does it matter earlier when I said objections. Okay, so one of the classic objections is why does this thing matter? So if you go on my own website, you'll, you'll see an article, something like, why is it important to have a business coach? Why is it important to have a life coach?

Chris Do: I'm gonna search you right now. You're not there yet.

Jule Kim: Nope, but I'm there on my local search because I get

Chris Do: Seattle.

Jule Kim: Possibly.

Chris Do: Don't try that.

Sorry. You can keep talking. I'm looking for you.

My God.

Jule Kim: If you just search on Seattle life coach, I should come up, but if not, it's because we're geographically different places. So that's the other thing I think a lot of people don't know is Google takes your location into account. So unless you have hidden your location, like on everything you browse and stuff, and

it has an I.D. An idea just from your I.P Address. And so there's a flip side to this whole SEO thing where it's not just your website, but you would also want to create a Google business profile. And so this is where if someone is searching on the Google Maps feature. And they search for chiropractor or nurse or something.

And, you know, all the little pins pop up on the map. That's what the Google business profile does. And so for me, if you type on Seattle Life Coach in the map, I pop up, usually like number one. So there are multiple angles to the whole SEO game here.

Chris Do: Advice actually is your website. Mm hmm. You're there, but you're, you're, you're not quite yet top 10. You're, you're getting there. I think you're like number 15. I'll scroll down a little bit to find you.

Jule Kim: On the maps or on just the regular search results?

Chris Do: Just regular Google. When I type in, why is it important to have a business coach, comma, Seattle? I think you're top 20 for sure. I think, I don't want to do the counting, but I think right around 15, 14, that's where you sit.

Jule Kim: Mm hmm.

Chris Do: Not bad.

Jule Kim: Yeah. And that's not even one of my primary targets because I don't want to do business coaching anymore. But my main target is something more like Seattle life coach. And so remember when I said your money keyword is going to be the job title you have. That's my job title. So Seattle life coach.

That's the thing that I tend to go after Seattle executive coach. And then if you search on the Google map side that gives you another opportunity to be found. So this is where getting reviews would matter to help surface, you know, your Google business profile. And what's interesting is the way Google engineers their search results is that sometimes you'll see the map result like the three pack come up even on the normal search results page.

So that's where having that Google business profile is actually really helpful because it sort of lets you leapfrog all the normal search results. So that's why you want to have that. Most of the people I know, they don't have any Google business profile. You should set one up. Even if you don't service clients like at your physical house, if you have ever dealt with a client at any physical location where, you know, you own it, So for you, like you could use your business, The Futur already has a Google business profile, but like let's say some other designer out there like actually has a studio and they even have clients coming by to pick up any kind of work or physical product or they come by for sessions or a meeting, you could set that address for your Google business profile.

Okay, so now we have some lists of keywords for you and you have maybe some idea on how to create content. If you're drawing a blank, remember, easy way for you to go check is just start Googling some of the keywords. So if you're a brand strategy designer or you're a logo identity designer, you could go over to Google, pop that in, go over to answerthepublic.com, pop in logo designer, and then look up all the questions people are asking. That's a real easy way for you to start creating content. Now, out of all the questions that will be surfaced on something like answerthepublic.com, you want to pay attention to the ones that have greener bubbles. So, the grey bubbles, less important.

You want to do the ones with green bubbles, cause that's more traffic. So the name of the game is for you to get some traffic, where it's just relatively easy for you to rank on. So a very common example of a keyword that's extremely hard to rank on is digital marketing, because you've got a shit ton of marketers out there.

And if they know what they're doing, then they're all trying to go after digital marketing. You have really big hitters on the game. Like you have HubSpot, you have Neil Patel who are ranking on page one. That kind of term is going to be extremely hard to rank on even brand strategy, I think is going to be pretty hard to rank on.

But like, let's say you only want to work with people in Santa Monica. So you say Santa Monica brand strategy designer or brand strategist, your chances just got a lot better for you being able to rank on that phrase. Now, common question I get from people is they're like, but this only gets 10 searches a month.

I'm like, that's fine. I built my entire photography business off of all of those 10 searches a month keywords. And what you do is you find all of those clusters and you roll them all up together. And that's where stuff starts to happen because you can rank on those in like a month, maybe even two weeks.

Chris Do: Okay, so you don't have to go for big numbers because let's face it, most of the people listening to this are going to run a small to medium sized business. And if you had 10 qualified leads reaching out to you who knew what they wanted and are pretty hot to buy, they're money words, you'd have more business than you know what to do with.

And those 10. If you service them well, we'll be the source for two more referrals per customer. That would give you 20 more leads and you can build a business empire based on just following these principles. Remember, you're getting a set of 10 fresh new prospects who are interested in working with you every single month.

I know some people don't get two, so let's not complain about the 10. And you've keep doing what Jule says, lump them together, build these clusters, 10 here, 10 there, 10 there. And eventually they become like an overwhelming amount of qualified leads.

Jule Kim: Yes, so you have these easy searches and that's the low hanging fruit, right?

So you want to go after the money keywords like your job title keywords and remember even let's say brand strategists, right? But then brand strategists near me is another key word. So you want to go after the high intent The people who are probably looking to hire or buy within the next three months. That's the people if you're saying I need leads right now, that's the keyword to go after right now. Now you want to build like the longer term game for the next year out as well. But that's where that top of the funnel stuff is, right?

The question is like, what is brand strategy? What is brand strategy in marketing? Or how does brand strategy help me get my business going? Or how does it fix my business? There are keywords similar to those that are in there, in the data out there. You just have to find it and create content. And you start guiding people down that customer journey that I spoke about.

So another cool thing you can do as a check is you take some of the keywords you're thinking of targeting and you just pop it into Google. So for me, back in the day, you know, I had left my job at Amazon and I was starting my photography business. You will hit this phase of you're like, I don't even know what keywords to target.

But remember the job title is always an easy place to start. So you're going to take what you think your job title is and you're going to put that into Google. You're going to get results. So back in the day seattle headshot photographer was my chosen one And you need to check for competition. So remember I just said digital marketing is extremely competitive like good luck ranking on that even in like two years but whatever your keyword is, let's say Santa Monica brand strategist, you put that in and you see what comes up on page one of Google.

Whoever comes up where the sites aren't something like Yelp or Snapper or Fiverr, whoever comes up like where it's a person like you, like an actual entrepreneur, those are your competitors. So you want to scope out their websites. So go click on over into the person you see that's sitting at spot one or spot five.

Go through their website and check how much content they have. So that's an easy way for you to see. if this is even attainable for you. So someone like The Futur, it's going to be actually kind of hard to go up against you because you've got like those thousands and thousands of backlinks, but you don't have a ton of content.

So you're ranking on some keywords, but there are other keywords you're not ranking on because you don't actually have content. So even with you, where you have a massive brand, you have tons of social media presence. Someone could go through your website and look through and see what all content you have built.

And the pieces where you don't have it, that would be the place to start. So you could start filling in those gaps. Why does logo design matter? What even is logo identity design? You have something on typography. So maybe you don't want to go up against you for typography. Even imposter syndrome and creatives.

So you've got my podcast sitting on your mindset page. So that's, that's a small piece, but again, it's like, what are the gaps? So when I was doing this same check with my competitors as a Seattle headshot photographer, I remember looking through the website and I did this in a live SEO workshop. I pulled up one of the people who's still ranking.

And I show people he has barely any content on the page, but he's got a great domain, but barely any words on any pages we're talking like probably 200, 300 words. So just think of Google like Pac Man. Okay, you want to feed the Pac Man layout. little crumbs. Your content are those crumbs, and Google will just eat it up. Your goal is to feed the Google so that you can then be found.

Chris Do: I'll feed the Google, Pac Man. Well, this is wonderful, but the world has changed a bit, and I want to get your thoughts on when the world was ruled by Google and we didn't have social media platforms, because now each social media platform is its own search engine.

How relevant is it now that you can be found on the For You page or Discover page on Instagram and TikTok and other places. Do we need to do this in, on all channels or do you feel like, hey, if you have to bet on one, you should stay with Google? What are your thoughts on that?

Jule Kim: Pretty sure every marketer out there is going to say you can go after those social media platforms, but make sure you bring that content back to your own website, some form or version of that content.

Because here's the thing, you and I have seen this plenty of times where someone loses their Instagram account, they get hacked. Same thing on TikTok. Now, even TikTok versus Instagram, they're not equal for SEO. TikTok did a way better job of having their search actually function. Whereas on Instagram today, like literally, if I just go on and put in the same search in TikTok versus Instagram, Instagram serves up garbage, like there's almost nothing useful.

The only place where you could make headway targeting on Instagram, even though that's changing now. Instagram has recently, in the last two years, started making the captions more searchable, but not doing a great job. Your handle and your bio, that's always been searchable. So whatever you're calling yourself, your handle, and then the name field, the display name field on Instagram, Pay very close attention to that.

So your job title or your product or service should be the thing you should be putting right into that display name. It should also be in your bio. TikTok has a much better approach with search. That's where you have a lot more opportunity to do that top middle and bottom funnel awareness that I'm, you know, that I keep mentioning.

So that stuff like what is imposter syndrome? You know, on TikTok, they value genuine content. They value the person who can show up, isn't all polished and isn't in full makeup and hair, but who's just talking to the camera like you're their friend. That's the kind of content that performs. I don't always do a good job at that.

I had a voice coach once tell me my face was like Lake Placid. So you can imagine, okay, not like the best delivery for TikTok. But because I made a video called what is imposter syndrome and I've made several videos imposter syndrome explained like various searches. So what you do on platforms like TikTok or Instagram, you start typing in little just short phrases like imposter syndrome or brand strategy.

And TikTok is really good at this where they do the autocomplete. It will show you what other people are searching on. And then if you actually do the search, there will even be like a little related searches section in that page. So pay attention to that. So like, let's say you're like, oh, this whole website stuff so boring. I don't know. I can't, I just can't. The same principles still apply, especially to a platform like TikTok and LinkedIn. So Instagram, not so much though. They're still running a little bit behind the ball.

Chris Do: So no matter what, always bring it home. bringing it to your homepage because platforms go away, algorithms are finicky, you can get shadowbanned, someone can hack your account, which happens actually more often than we think because you fell for something, you clicked on something, and they tricked you, and they they, they stole your account and sometimes you can restore it, but that's, that's gonna be a very terrifying couple days or hours that you have to see if you've lost everything or not.

The same could be said about your website, actually, because websites get hacked and people take over your website too, but it's best to have an insurance policy against what the algorithms or the social platforms do to be able to do that. Okay. So you made it really clear. Is there something else or is that like, that's the meatiest part and once you understand that and you start to execute against it, you'll be fine.

Jule Kim: I would say that's the meatiest part for content. Like, you have to know your customer, your client, how they think. If you truly understand them, then you would be able to give me those examples of the triggering events, right? So, classic example, I see this in BNI all the time, where if you don't know what BNI is, it's one of those professional networking groups.

And multiple people I've met who are those swag providers, like, you know, if you go to Adobe Max or a conference like that.

Chris Do: Merch.

Yeah, exactly. The people who will, make the merch so you can then have it displayed or sell it. These people when I ask them these questions, what are the triggering events?

They can't even answer this and i'm like, come on, man I literally just said if you end up having a booth at a conference That's a triggering event Or if you launch a you launched a new book or something that could also be a triggering event. So keep asking yourself what are the triggering events that even start them down this path?

So it's not just SEO. It's content. You have to understand and give them the content that they're looking for. So it's like having a dinner party. You invite these guests over, but then they come to your house and you have like an empty table, like empty plates. What the hell, man? Why did you ask me to come here?

So it's the same thing. Give them something where they can consume. No, give them a satisfying experience. Give them that satisfying meal. So if they want alcohol, give them the alcohol. If they want food or meat or chips, whatever that is for your audience, make sure you have that on your website. And it's great to build a social platform, but you know, like we say, that could go away in a day.

You don't know. Your website could get hacked, but if you're smart, you would be set up with a good hosting provider where that host takes backups every single day. They take your website, you can just put it back up from yesterday's copy. Not terrible. So have the backups in place, you know, make sure you have your two factor authentication on for everything possible.

But yeah, terrible stuff happens and you want to make sure you own your data. So make sure you own your email list, have that data, you know, have those as the actual files. Like in your side, in your Dropbox or on your computer.

Well, you know, you given me something to think about because I spend this kind of time and attention when it comes to writing content for the social platforms, for YouTube, especially for Instagram and for LinkedIn. I'm kind of thinking about like, what do I want to be known for? What are people looking for? Where are they in their, their journey? But I kind of stopped there. And so the simple unlock for me, for those of you that have made it all the way to this point and want a quick recap, what I would say is look for problems that your clients have right now and write content that answers that.

If you can take it from the very beginning of like, they're not very aware of the problem that they have towards the solution, towards the product, and answer them along the way. Basically you said, what are the most common objections, like why they wouldn't work with you? And you can just start there.

That's a really good writing prompt. We do that all the time, but then we turn it into a YouTube video, but we don't ever then take it back and put it back on the website. And we're starting to do that now. And now more than ever, it's going to be easier. It used to require a human being to either transcribe, translate, and make it interesting for someone to read.

And now you can use AI, auto transcription, auto transcribe. You take that and then you can spin it through GPT and have it rewrite it for you. And we're looking at automating the entire process. So once a video is published. This automatically happens and it populates with a thumbnail because we've already done that work.

And because we create content at such a high volume and velocity, we should be able to own all the keywords that we want. So we just need to be more intentional about how we're creating. So those of you that create a podcast and you're thinking, whoa, this isn't for me. Well, literally it is for you because take your podcast, transcribe it, have someone to look at it, write it with a human being or use, use robot or AI intelligence to help you with that.

And then make sure you put it up as podcast summaries. And then it's going to be rich with keywords. We do this currently with all of our podcasts. And so if you're looking for something on podcasts, you should be able to find it.

Jule Kim: I would say you don't even have to rewrite the stuff if you don't want to. The one thing you need to do though is organize that transcript. Let's say you have your podcast episode transcribed. And I know the last one you and I did was a monster. It was like over 15,000 words when I like took the transcript out. It's like holy mackerel. So if you take the transcript and you're putting that on your website, that's a start.

But what you've essentially given Google is this giant blob. You have not given Google like the little labels in there to tell Google what this blob is about. Okay. So it's like giving Google like a mystery stew and being like, here you go. And Google's like, I don't know what the hell this is. So in the creative audience, if you have something like podcast or video, take the transcript, put it on your website.

But then put headers into the content to help organize that content. So remember, people don't necessarily read everything, especially if it's massive like 15,000 words. But you want to give them a place to scan and then start where they can just read the bits that they want. So that's a huge miss that I see all the time with podcast transcripts.

Now the other thing, the secret weapon in the creative audience is, y'all are mostly, Visual asset people. Y'all are making photos. If you're creating brands, then you're probably taking screenshots or taking photos of whatever the thing is you're giving your client, right, your logos as well. If you have a portfolio, you should, not if a bunch of you don't even have like a visual portfolio on your site, that's a huge miss. You should absolutely have that on your website, but not just for demonstrating your experience. You do that after you've already brought in the traffic, but you're not even getting the traffic and it's because you're not putting those visual assets on your site and what you have over people like myself where I don't generate visual assets, right?

Unless I put a photo of me. Images are a great way to rank for Google. They are so great. So if you're listening to this, you're like, oh god, the idea of writing 10 articles so painful. You can take that on your own time, say 10 articles for the year, but upload all those images of client work you've ever done.

And then go after the meta descriptions. So metadescription is metadata, the file name, the alt text in your website. I can't tell you how many people upload photos or images onto their website and they leave every single field blank. A huge mess. Fill in that title. Fill in the alt text, especially. If you don't know what alt text is, this is for the visually impaired people, where they come on the site and their screen reader is reading everything, but of course when they encounter an image, like what is the screen reader going to do?

It's that alt text field, the description you put in there, but that's what also helps that image rank on Google. So, every single image you put up there, put the keyword in there. You want to describe it, but also put the keyword. The file name? Okay. And then also the link text, very commonly overlooked. So what I mean by link text is you have a link from one portion of your website, let's say an article to another article, people will make the mistake of saying, click here to read this, right?

And it's just the click here part here. You want that part to say the keyword, click here to read my guide to five poses. Click here to read my analysis on the Coca Cola brand. Click here to see why logo identity design is so important. You want to make sure it's descriptive. So never forget, Google is not a person.

It's programming that's designed to go out there and try to figure out what all this data is, what that's about, and to categorize it. So you make Google's job easier when you do it for Google. This episode is so weird, man.

Chris Do: It's nerdy. It's, we're doing nerdy talk right now. And nerdy talk isn't sexy. Uh, it's work that has to be done so that you can get work. And if you are short on work, you have time. So you have time to listen to this podcast probably a couple of times and start to implement these things. You have time to pontificate on the problems that you're solving, the objections that your clients potentially have of hiring you so that you can generate the articles that then make findable.

Austin Kleon writes in his book, Show Your Work, he says, to be found, you must be findable. In this day and age, you guys, do everything you can to be findable. Use all the tools and resources you have, video, audio, written, images, whether they be case studies, logo examples, photographs, mockups, whatever you do, put it out there, but make sure the machine can actually understand what you're doing.

I think we're, we're fastly approaching this time when SEO will be less and less relevant because the machine's getting smarter. It will be able to look at your images and know that it's a cloudy day and there's a golden retriever and everything that you want. But until then, and we don't want to be gambling, sitting on our hands, we have time, we should do this.

And if you have no time because you're making so much money, and you're like, well, I don't need to do this. Well, I suggest you do what rich people do. Use their money to buy more time. Use your money to hire people to do this for you. They're not expensive once you understand the strategy. So you can explain to them what you want done.

You can identify your keywords. You can hire someone to do that. You can hire the previous version of Jule, and she would help you do that. And that's what you would do. And then you'd have a strategy and a roadmap moving forward. And if you do this, hit me back up. in three to six months and tell me about all the success you're having.

Or hit me back up in the same amount of time and say, I didn't do it. I still have no work, Chris. And then I'll say, well, I wonder why? I have no idea why you don't have any work. No prospects. Hmm. Because nobody can find you. That's the problem.

Jule Kim: A couple of stuff to that. It's like, yeah, I think most people, they don't even have, Like the faucet is not even working. Okay, but like let's say the faucet is working and there's stuff coming out of the pipeline. So don't don't ever forget SEO will get you the traffic, but it's still on you to convert that traffic. You're not going to get a hundred percent of the traffic that lands on your website or whatever piece it is but it's on you to know and understand your customer to be good at that sales process and to make them feel like they understand that they're understood by you.

Okay. So it's that connection piece. And I think where a lot of creative sort of go wrong is their mindset's not quite right here. There's often desperation. They're so desperate to prove their worth and their value because they, they themselves are not settled in it. They end up treating the sales call where they're like, I've won all these awards and I've done this and this and it's like all you hear in the call is I, I, I, and there are almost no questions to the lead or the prospect.

It's like, do you even know what problem it is they want solved? No, because you didn't ask any questions. So remember you have to actually do the sales process to convert that and get a client.

Chris Do: Okay, Jule, that was awesome. I'm just going to remind people in case you're enjoying this conversation. Jule's been on our podcast before. Previously she was talking about life coach and where she's at in her life and her adventures. She has just recently had her Self Love Affirmations and Reflections deck. It's out on the market. It's available on Amazon or wherever you buy books and things of this nature. You can also find it at Urban Outfitters. It's wonderful. It's actually a lot bigger and way better produced than I thought. Look at the size of this. This is not your playing card size, everybody. So, it's really amazing, actually. And of course, I would expect nothing less from Jule. And Jule, where can people find you if they want to look you up?

Jule Kim: You can find me on LinkedIn, Jule Kim, J U L E K I M. On Instagram, it's Jule Kim. On TikTok, it's Jule Kim. On my website, adviceactually.com. Yeah, you can find me in all the places.

Chris Do: Okay, it's mostly, it's Jule Kim wherever you look. So you're, you're good on that. Alright. Thanks Jule.

Jule Kim: Thanks Chris. This is Jule Kim and you are listening to The Futur.

The Futur: Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sandborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts.

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