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Adam JK

Adam JK shares what it’s like writing a book about optimism when it feels like you’re living in an end-of-the-world movie.

You Are Here (For Now)
You Are Here (For Now)

You Are Here (For Now)

Ep
160
Oct
27
With
Adam JK
Or Listen On:

Write like you speak

Adam J. Kurtz (aka Adam JK)  is a designer, artist, and speaker whose illustrative work is rooted in honesty, humor and a little darkness.

In this episode, we welcome Adam back to the show to talk about what it’s like writing a book about optimism when it feels like you’re living in an end-of-the-world movie.

Adam and Chris also discuss their experience with therapy (and the immense benefit it has on your mental health), how to write like you speak, and why perfection is overrated.

Hosted By
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produced by
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Episode Transcript

Adam:

I write the way I speak because that's all I know. And if I had to sit down and write like a more professional book or even give a more professional podcast interview, I don't think I could do it. But what I have learned over so many years is that maybe that's actually okay and maybe that's a skill.

Chris:

Well, I'm excited to be talking. I guess this would be our official second podcast together, Adam.

Adam:

Second podcast.

Chris:

Yay, milestones. I'm super happy. I know you're super busy and a lot has changed since the last time you and I spoke. The world has changed but I know you are working on a new book. Is that a good place for us to start the conversation?

Adam:

Yeah, we can. Or if you want to build up to it, that's okay too. I'll follow your lead.

Chris:

Well, let's try and see where it takes us. Tell me about your latest book, your endeavor. And anybody that's ever written a book before know the difficulties of capturing your thought, knowing that it's forever going to be memorialized in print form and you can't take it back. You can't-

Adam:

Jesus Christ, no pressure. Holy shit, I just came on this podcast. And I'm already being attacked. It is intimidating to make a book, and you know this about me. I never set out to be an author. I was just sort of doing my design and illustration work. And then a book was pitched to me and did well. And career sometimes doesn't happen the way we think it will but with this book, there was a lot of not pressure, but a lot of interest from the publisher like, "Hey, Adam, let's have a meeting." "Hey, let's go to lunch. When is your next book coming?"
And I did not want to make a new book unless I really knew what I wanted to say and felt like a book was the right way to say it because there are so many ways to say things. And finally, four years after my last book came out, but actually six years since I really wrote a book, this new one that's coming out.
And it's called You Are Here For Now.

Chris:

Yes, with a little asterisk, for now.

Adam:

For now, because everything changes. And also you might die.

Chris:

Yes, and we'll get into some of that. But I have to ask you this question, if it's been six years since you wrote your last book, what was that like getting back on that bicycle?

Adam:

It was like trying to get back on a bicycle and then realizing that the bicycle is a motorcycle. It was not the same bicycle at all. And I realized, "Hey, I actually have so much more to say and so much more excitement, so much more energy." And it was like, vroom, vroom, vroom. Okay, wait, how do I control this thing? And how do I wield it into a thing that I can manage and then how do I make it into a book? It was a lot. It was a lot.
And then COVID hit.

Chris:

Oh, I see. So the idea to write the book happened before COVID?

Adam:

Yeah. Oh, my god, yeah. I don't know that I would've ... I don't think I would have signed up for a project like this during a pandemic. No, I've been working on this idea since the beginning of 2019 and Penguin finally took my pitch November 2019. And so I was working on it and had a lot going on the rough draft. The first pass of a rough draft was due April 2020 and I pride myself on turning in work on time or even early, my client work. But I was five months late because I just couldn't do it.
How do you write a book about optimism during the global pandemic that's killing millions of people? You just don't.

Chris:

Wow. There's a lot to process in that. We're both professionals and we know what it means to give your word that you're going to finish something but writing a book is a whole different thing. And what was it like for you in those five months? Did you constantly feel like, "Oh, my god, I have to do this?" Or did you take a breath and do something else?

Adam:

I wish I could say I took a breath and I was so zen and enlightened. But no, it was like very minute that I wasn't working on the book, I felt like a failure. And it wasn't just the book, it was my creative work in general. We've been so trained as creatives that our productivity and self-worth are directly proportionate. And it's like, that's not true. And I know that's not true, and I've made other books about how that's not true.
But to know something objectively and then to feel it is a different thing. And I think when you're trapped in your apartment for safety reasons and all you've got is like a bunch of weed in your computer, there's that feeling of like, "Okay, well, any moment that I'm not doing weed, I should be doing computer." And that's kind of how I felt. I was like, "Adam, you are ... Close these tabs. Stop watching The Wire, and get to work." But it just didn't happen that way for me.

Chris:

I know exactly what you mean, and as a self-professed workaholic, recovering workaholic, I do fight between these two polar extremes of extreme productivity and catching up on ... It's funny you mentioned The Wire because during the pandemic, my wife and I, we got to watch a lot of series, TV shows on Netflix that we never found time to do.

Adam:

Yeah, totally. The same.

Chris:

Right, and you're watching. You're like, "Okay, I swear this is the last episode." And then there's a cliffhanger and you're like, "Okay, just one more episode, and just one more." And then you're like, "What did I just do today?" Oh, my gosh.

Adam:

Yeah, entire days melted away and at the beginning, that actually felt like the safe thing to do. At the beginning, it was like, "Yeah, we'll just stay up another hour because we got nowhere to go tomorrow. Can't go out, so who cares?" It felt like the end of the world for a bit. It was really ... God, what a time.

Chris:

Yeah.

Adam:

I'll never forget what that felt like and I think it's worth saying too, we're in this different phase of the pandemic but a lot of us will be unpacking the grief and the pain and the stress of those first three months for a long time, back when they told us masks are just for surgeons, back when they told us stay in your house. It was like being in an end of the world movie.

Chris:

It was. It was kind of like this zombie apocalypse in real life.

Adam:

Yes, that's exactly it.

Chris:

... exposure to this thing and you become a zombie.

Adam:

Yeah.

Chris:

Let me ask you this question before we delve into other themes in the book, but I just want to know, just as a human, what did being under lockdown, what kind of toll did it take on your mental health and your physical health?

Adam:

Well, one thing that's kind of good is that my mental health and physical health were both already pretty bad before the pandemic started. So there wasn't too much change.

Chris:

That was the good news?

Adam:

Good news is that yeah, [crosstalk 00:07:41] I was already kind of unhealthy in all regards, already a workaholic, already had a home studio, already ... No. I think that at first everything was ... There was obviously a negative dip. If we're on a graph, it just dropped. But what happened is that the conversation about health and the conversation about, "Hey, everyone, we need to be really intentional about our mental and physical health," was so out in the open.
Whereas certain people maybe keep those conversations private or between only close friends. Every time I opened my phone, I had every app, every person saying, "Hey, I'm not doing so great. So here's what I'm doing." Or, "Hey, are you okay? Are you okay? I'm okay. Are you okay?" And it became so normalized that I was like, "Okay, this is cool because I've already been that person but now we're all that person."
And then it became a thing of like, "Hey, everyone. What elliptical bike should I impulse buy off of the internet today?" And people are like, "Oh, I got this one. Oh, I got this one." And there were so many things like that where it was like, "Oh, what's the best meatball recipe?" Or, "Oh, which Instagram frying pan will we all buy?" And even though some of that was ridiculous, it did also weirdly build a sense of community, I don't know. I made really good meatballs. That was a skill I didn't know I had.

Chris:

Nice.

Adam:

I think everyone who cooks who's listening is like, "That's the easiest thing to make, dumb ass." But for me, that was a big deal.

Chris:

Okay, well, some big changes happened also in your life. You left New York. What prompted that?

Adam:

So to get a little bit more serious, this is where 2020 forced a lot of us to get really real about what we want and need from life in general. And when you are wired to your work or your art and your work and that line blurs so frequently. It's very easy to feel like your life should be tooled around projects like, "I'm going to do this project, and I'm going to work six months. And then I'll take a vacation and I'm going to do this personal thing for a month. And then I'm going to publish that, and then I'm going to take on another client project."
And you really plan out this life around work. And suddenly, we were faced with this moment of like, "Well, what if we planned life around joy? Because happiness was so hard to come by. What if we prioritize this in our life right now?" Because we've realized, "Hey, you might not have that much time. You might not have that much time as you want." And so my husband and I talked about it, and I was thinking, I would like to move apartments. I want a balcony. I want some fresh air. And he just looked at me and he was like, "Dude, if I have to move apartments, it's got to be home. It's got to be home to Honolulu."
And so we talked about it for a few hours. And I definitely had to wrap my head around it but yeah, we picked up and we moved to Hawaii. And that's my life now. I just live on an island in the middle of the ocean.

Chris:

Yeah. And for a while, I think as far as I can tell from the news, Hawaii had some pretty strict policies about who can enter and seemed to be all right.

Adam:

Yeah.

Chris:

And then now I understand there's an outbreak.

Adam:

Yes. It really changed. So we had been trying to visit before moving. And our flights were canceled a few times. It was really strict getting in here. And we ended up coming on the very second day that they allowed for test results to exempt you from a two-week quarantine. And so it was very interesting coming into the airport. And they had just set up this QR code system. Every local government had to sort of adapt quickly and it seemed like everyone had a completely different process starting from scratch with no continuity state by state.
And then once we got here, it felt relatively safe. There were definitely cases, but the spread wasn't too bad. And as soon as they changed the policy around if you're vaccinated, you can come. You don't need to be tested. It sort of triggered the floodgates. And so that's a delta variant thing but it's also like the hotels reopened and had good deals and all kinds of people bought tickets.
People faking vaccine passports and I don't know, man. I think that there are so many people who have had such a rough go of it that they kind of lost their brains and they were like, "Fuck it, let's go," to this magical island where COVID doesn't exist and nothing is real. And yeah, that's not really the case here.

Chris:

Right. And I had a little dose of what you're talking about because right before summer was up, my kids felt desperate because we've been locked up in our home for a really long time, and they wanted to take a trip. So my wife, last minute, books a very expensive trip to Hawaii which we almost didn't make because we didn't realize we had to fill out all these paperwork ahead of time. We're all vaccinated but we didn't fill it out and she nearly had a panic attack at the airport because some other person on our flights said, "Oh, did you guys fill this thing out?" And then you could just see the blood drained from our face.
We got in this line and right before we're about to do our thing, there's like, "The gate is closing. You got to get on the plane and we had not figured it all out yet. So we were still on that plane over to Hawaii not knowing if we're going to be quarantined for two weeks on a one-week trip.

Adam:

Yeah, you're not the only ones. They definitely accommodated for that. But it was interesting seeing other travelers. So recently, we left and came back and I definitely saw other travelers who clearly did not know. But that's just it. It's 18 months in and we still don't have standardized messaging. It's still state by state. It's still hard to find free testing in a lot of places.
Other countries have got this down better than we do. I don't mean for this to be like COVID the podcast, but anyone who started, anyone who ... Well, that's just politics. I was about to go on a whole tangent. I'll just say this. I just think that if there's anyone who really thinks America is number one, how? How does that seem accurate to you? And can I introduce you to everything that's happened to America ever but also now? Jesus.

Chris:

Well, I think people who think that aren't looking at it critically or objectively. It's just a feeling. It turns out a lot of our feelings drive how we think and how we move about the world. And maybe that's a good tangent or a good segue back into the book and feelings. You're a person who's very connected to feelings and you speak about feelings and better than most. I love your sense of humor and mixed in with a healthy dose of reality. Sometimes, it seems like you oscillate between self-love and self-loathing. It's neat to be able to read.
So getting back to the book, You Are Here For Now, you had this idea to write the book. It sounded like the writing process was way easier or faster because you experienced and lived a lot more of your life. So then I got to ask you, who did you write the book for?

Adam:

I think it was a different process because I'm writing about ... It's not about me but I'm using some of my own experience as examples or anecdotes or as warnings about the things that I'm sharing, about mental health, about success and failure, about fear, about comparison, about all these very relatable feelings that we all feel. And so to use yourself as almost like the fall guy is very intimidating.
But I think I wrote it for a younger version of myself. I wrote it for a future version of myself. I wrote it for people who similarly oscillate between feelings, or who similarly are just sort of waiting through the unknown right now, trying to figure out who they are in the aftermath of COVID or in the aftermath of their 20s or in the aftermath of losing a job, or these different things that happen in our lives.
There's just so many times that we don't know what's next and that's who I wrote this book for. And rather than say, "Hey, I'm the expert at figuring things out, and here's how I succeeded," I think what I'm saying is, "Here are the ways that I have fucked up so you don't have to, and let's talk about it."

Chris:

Yeah, I think you do a great job of weaving or navigating those waters about saying, "I've gone through some stuff. Maybe they'll help you, maybe they won't, and it's okay if it doesn't. And being inspirational without saying, this is not a book about trying to inspire you and making you feel bad. Is that just your general disposition in life to be super grounded and self-aware that some people may not hear this or some of the things that are said in that kind of inspirational, motivational voice are triggering for people?

Adam:

Yeah. I think we know this and I know that you know this too because we always hang at conferences and we hear all kinds of people speak, and the different ways that advices delivered. And my perspective is that advice is best delivered when it has been sort of invited into our minds and into our space. And so if someone shows up and says, "I'm the expert." That's amazing. And you can really learn a lot from an expert but only if you're willing.
Anyone who is semi-willing or just like kind of in the room or got the book from their cousin for their birthday, anyone else who isn't 100% there for expert advice is not going to be super receptive. But if I show up and I'm like, "Hey, man, I am just like you ..." It's not quite how I'm saying it. But if I just show up and I'm like, "Hey, how is it going?" "Yes, I'm an idiot and here's what happened to me."
I think it's a little bit more digestible. It's a little bit more approachable, and it doesn't put anyone off. It's almost disarming. And same as true for the design aesthetic of the book, handwritten reminders that just feel like, "Hey, a person just like handed you their own notebook. And no big deal, and this isn't like a super fancy thing. This is just like a little thing for you."

Chris:

Yeah. I have to say this reading through the book that you have a skill at capturing and writing in a voice that sounds like the way you think.

Adam:

Yeah, it's because I don't know how to write, Chris. No, I mean, I write the way I speak because-

Chris:

Yes, you do.

Adam:

... because that's all I know. And if I had to sit down and write like a more professional book, or even give a more professional podcast interview, I don't think I could do it.
But what I have learned over so many years is that maybe that's actually okay, and maybe that's a skill. Maybe it's a skill to speak in an unfiltered way and to write the way you speak instead of getting sort of caught up on, "Well, this is what writing is supposed to sound like," or, "This is how I saw someone else write a book that I like, so I'm going to write that way."
In some ways, it's almost like if you can be ignorant. If you can wield ignorance in a way that's useful, maybe that's a skill.

Chris:

That's a very nice way of saying that. I think there's some sense of self-deprecation there because you're way more skillful than you may admit to, but I think you've touched upon something that more people need to hear that "the way" or perfection is overrated and that in your own idiosyncratic strange, weird, not normal way, you come across with a very unique style and voice that's unmistakable.
From page one to the end of the book, I hear your voice throughout it. And I don't think that this is purely biased because I know how you speak and I've seen you speak many times. But I just read it asides that you saying something and then questioning what you're saying right as you're writing it, is like that is Adam 100%.

Adam:

Yeah. For a long time, I thought that I was the only weirdo in the whole world. And then you grow up and you realized that actually one in four people have some version of a mental illness, and probably one in one people are a jumbled mess inside sometimes.
And so you start to realize that the way that I think is unique to me, sure, we're all snowflakes, but it's actually pretty relatable to a lot more people. And so that's something that I learned anecdotally. I learned through speaking. I learned through meeting people and talking to them after my talks and I realized that I might be a little bit crazy but a lot of people are too. And my way of processing is very similar to theirs.
And so for me to do my thing in my voice is actually very accessible to them because it's the way they think too.

Chris:

So I just realized something in case somebody did not listen to the first episode together. They might not even know who the heck you are, and I'm just curious how you describe yourself to strangers.

Adam:

I don't. I don't. People are like, "Oh, what do you?" And I say, "I'm a graphic designer." And I say it in the most boring way possible. I say, "Oh, I'm a graphic designer." And then they say like, "Oh, what kind of work do you?" And I say, "Print and web." And then no more questions, because at that point, they just assumed it's boring and they don't ask anymore.
On an airplane, I never want to be like, "Oh, I'm an artist and author who sold a million books worldwide. I'm a keynote speaker at blah-blah-blah, and I have a product line." That's exhausting. And then people are, "Oh, okay. Well, I didn't ask that much. What, you think you're better than me?"
So I would rather not talk about it at all.

Chris:

Well, okay. This is interesting. So you're trying to shut down the conversation when somebody wants to find out something about you maybe?

Adam:

A little bit, yeah. I would rather be like, "Oh, I'm a goofy Jewish dude who lives in Hawaii and loves eating bread." I would rather just be like leave with the personal stuff. And then if someone is like, "Hey, actually, I have your book and I know who you are." Then I'm like, okay, then I'll engage like, "Thank you so much. I'm so appreciative." If I have my backpack on me, maybe I have stickers or pencils I can give someone, but I don't know. I'm embarrassed to be like, "Oh, yeah, I'm a moderately successful blah-blah-blah."

Chris:

Are you uncomfortable with fame?

Adam:

I don't know, I've never been famous before.

Chris:

Shut ... Come on. Let me ask you this question. Somebody sees you in the street and they're like, "Adam JK. Adam JK," how do you respond to that?

Adam:

I think it's nice. Use your common sense because I have been interrupted before or kind of scared, like not scared of a person but they frightened me unexpectedly. But if I'm just at, say, I'm at an art museum. Like last month, we went to this vegan restaurant and the girl at the register was like, "Oh, I have your planner." It's so flattering.
And I'm not like a famous celebrity that's hiding from the paparazzi. It's not like you're going to say my name and then a camera crew is going to chase me. It's a pretty normal exchange so I find it very flattering and very sweet. Actually, we were in LA a few weeks ago, and we were at a restaurant and someone who worked there realized who we were and sent over free dessert. And that was like really nice.
Yeah, it was so sweet. She introduced herself and she's a member of my ... I have a quarterly arts subscription and she's in that. And we got to talk and that was super nice. So I guess I'll say I don't consider that fame but I'm so grateful to connect with people in my little way through my art because it feels like it just make this big world smaller and more human.

Chris:

Yeah, let that be a note to anyone who wants to approach somebody that they admire from afar. Send over dessert or drink, and then start a conversation if they're up for it. Because sometimes people can be rather intrusive and like you said, startledly, when you're not expecting it. Or they don't realize you're in a rush to get somewhere and you don't want to rude that it creates some kind of internal conflict.

Adam:

Yeah. I was once interrupted in a middle of a huge of fight with my husband.

Chris:

Oh, my god.

Adam:

But it was quiet. We were on a train, and I think we were masking it pretty well. And in the middle of this big fight, a girl comes up and she's like, "Hey, you're Adam JK, right? I'm a huge fan." And Mitchell is like fuming and just kind of steps to the side and let's it happen and then ...

Chris:

Oh, wow.

Adam:

... then we resume our argument. We don't fight that often but that was like-

Chris:

That was weird.

Adam:

That was the biggest fight we've ever had and for that to happen in the middle was like awful, you know what I mean? It just made it worse where Mitchell was like, "Oh, I hate you so much right now and this random girl loves you. How dare she?" He won't listen to this podcast so I can reveal this.

Chris:

I got to say that's really cool because he was able to hit pause in this fight, step aside, give you space and then resume the fight. That's a lot of self-awareness there.

Adam:

Anything about self-awareness, when it comes to energy or just like awareness of emotions in the way that the brain and body are connected, that's all for Mitchell. If I didn't meet this dude, I probably would be dead by now. And I say that casually but I mean it very, very seriously.
That's the magic of love, is that people come into our lives that we have otherwise no connection to and so quickly imprint themselves on our lives and entwined themselves and their energies in our lives, in our brains. And so even after people passed, we hear their voice in our head and the lessons that they taught us and the advice that they gave. And it's life-changing. We carry that with us.
So I am so glad that life somehow brought us together and even the layers of self-awareness that are in the book, even some of the more spiritual thinking, that is a product of meeting him and learning from him and conversations from him and this cross-cultural exchange because we're so different.
I don't know how I got here, but yeah, love is crazy and very, very real.

Chris:

You write about that in the book. But I wanted to add something to that because my therapist, Joan, she asked me about my relationship with my wife, and she's a family therapist. And somehow, I think I asked her like, "Well, you cannot find two more opposite people yet we found each other." And she's like, "I have this theory that we find each other because we need to learn something, that they're brought into our life, into our orbit because we need to learn something about ourselves."
And that's why these things happened. I'm like, "Okay, so I'm going to accept whatever conflict and differences there are and use that as a mirror to myself and ask myself, what is it I was meant to learn from this situation, versus why are they doing this? I don't understand them at getting upset.

Adam:

Well, that's just it, right? It's someone who we care about deeply who forces us to really reflect on the ways that we communicate and the way we process or experience and the way that we navigate space. It's like, for your whole life you've peeled hard-boiled eggs a certain way. And then your wife does it some other way that's genius and you're like, "Holy shit. How do you just know what?"
The writer Jonny Sun has a really beautiful essay about the way his dad peels eggs in his most recent book called Goodbye, Again. And that's why the egg example comes into my mind where for a lifetime, he watched his dad peel hard-boiled eggs a certain way and adopted it as normal and then his now wife inquires about it. It's so beautiful.

Chris:

Well, you have a whole section on love is real, which makes me ... I think I know what you're going to say about this, but it makes me think about, was there a time in your life where you thought love wasn't real?

Adam:

I don't know if I didn't think it was real, but maybe I didn't know how real it was. And that's also a product of being a young person where the love that we know is like family love. Your parents love you, and you're feeling the love of family. And then romantic relationships, that's kind of different because when you're young, maybe you date in high school or something like that. But it's mostly based on proximity. It's like, "Okay, these are the people in my school. This is the options."
And so to go out into the world and meet a total stranger from a very different place from you who's very different from you, who you would never in a million years meet but then you just happened to meet them, and find that it is just not a good match based on I'm attracted to you and you go to my high school. But foundationally like you're attractive to me. You're interesting to me. You're so intelligent. You make me laugh or you make me think or you introduce me to different ...
When it is so 360, all the boxes ticked, there's something so powerful about that that it's really earth-shattering. It's like, "Oh, this is the love that people are writing the pop songs about." Because until I experienced it, I was like, "Yeah, okay, love is great. I get the teddy bear and the greeting card and the chocolate box," but then I got it. And I think I was someone who was really looking for love, really was very invested in meeting someone and having that experience.
And so to finally find it and in a sort of unexpected way was really cool. It changed a lot of things for me. And once you experience that, even if the relationship ends, couples break up after years and it's so difficult and a part of them feels heartbroken their whole life. But to have ever loved at all, this is like paraphrasing a famous quote to have ever loved at all is certainly a lesson that love is real and exists and can happen again. What is it? It's better to have and lost than never loved at all.

Chris:

Yes.

Adam:

Yes, that's the one. And how true is that. To know that it's real, to feel a feeling so deeply. Not just the word or the idea of an emotion, but to feel the emotion all the way to the core of your being is such a shock and reminder that feelings are real and that you have a capacity to feel them.

Chris:

How old were you when you actually felt that to your core as an idea that wasn't just fiction or romanticized but actually something that you can experience yourself?

Adam:

I was 23. So I think I was actually kind of lucky. To me, that seems young.

Chris:

Well, young or old, I guess we all come to it when we come to it, right?

Adam:

I hope so. But I'm always grateful that we met earlier so that we had more time to be young and stupid together because there's stuff that we did that I don't want to do anymore. I don't want to couch surf. I don't want to be physically uncomfortable staying in like a cheap motel on a random trip. I'm so glad I had those experiences but a 32-year-old with a bad back, I'm not doing that now.
So I just mean I'm glad that we had that time to grow and evolve together. When I met Mitchell, I was just making zines at home. And not long after we met, I lost my job, I was in debt. And he was just like, "What is this?" Maybe not exactly this, but I think my perception of what he might have wondered is like, "What is this guy doing? He's like selling key chains and balloons from his bedroom," and seems to think that this is our ... Is he okay?

Chris:

When you described it like that, it does sound a little strange.

Adam:

Yeah. Sometimes it's still strange.

Chris:

That's what I do.

Adam:

I look around in my life and I'm like, "Sorry. Wait, what?" I'm like, "Wait, this works?" Chris, I just bought a house, like the fuck? From art, not like fine art in a museum art but from my very small scale, accessible art. I have some books with a major publisher but you don't make that much money with a big publisher anyway. It's mostly from self-publishing and actually from key chains and balloons and pencils and cute stuff.
And that has actually enabled me to live ... I'm not rich. I don't have a jet-set lifestyle but I'm able to live and have a home and build a future with my family from art. It's possible. Even if you can't draw, and if you're listening to this podcast, go to @adamjk and look at what I draw like and then remember that I just bought a house. So if I can do it, you can do it.
You could probably draw much better, so you can have two houses. Or a house and a car, if you want. I don't know how to drive.

Chris:

Time for a quick break. But we'll be right back.

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Speaker 4:

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Speaker 5:

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Chris:

Welcome back to our conversation. So you're saying a guy who basically, for a period of time, I know we're kind of making light of it, made key chains and art balloons, is able to live in a house that's comfortable and sustain yourself by making your art and sharing your feelings and ideas with the world. I think that's pretty cool.

Adam:

Yeah, it's really a special thing. And there is not a single day that I'm not grateful because it's so unexpected to me. Even though I've worked so hard at it, even though I've pushed my art in different directions, even though in my professional life, I do take meetings and I do pitch, and I do all these very professional things that make this sort of fun, goofy art possible. There's of course always a business element to it, but still I look around and I'm like, "Really. Really? Really?" It's wild to me.
And to take it one step further, I am also just surprised to really be here. And this is something that I talk about in the book and similarly in my friendly, funny way and ha-ha. And we're going to joke about it because this is how I cope.
But Chris, I straight up like I didn't think that I would be alive today. I really thought that I was going to die. And so to not only be successful enough to live and be happy, but just to be here at all, to be alive at 32 and look around at my life and like my life, feels incredible because I never believed that that would happen for me. It took me a long time to even accept to the idea of a future and then believe that it was possible to be happy in that future.

Chris:

Can we go there? Can I ask you about that?

Adam:

Yeah. I'm volunteering.

Chris:

All right, I want to know about that.

Adam:

That's what this book is. It's time to talk about it.

Chris:

Yeah.

Adam:

It's stressful, but it's you.

Chris:

Look, from the outside, let me tell you how it looks from the outside and then you can peel back the layers if you will. From the outside, what you see is a young, healthy, good-looking man about in the world who's got a large social media following, who's written several books, who has a whole line of merch, who's active on the speaking circuit, who seemingly has all the reasons to be joyful and happy with what they have and to have their best days ahead of them.
How is that person different than the person that you're describing right now?

Adam:

That person isn't different. That's the thing, right? It's one and the same. I do have all those things and I'm so grateful for it. But I'm also living in the brain that is predisposed to not feel great and that's just my reality. And sometimes, I'm really down and sometimes, I'm so up that I can barely function.
And sometimes, I'm so anxious I want to crawl out of my body. So, there's a lot of different things happening and I'm so grateful for all that good because it helps me balance out and stabilize the things that are less good and maybe somewhat less within my control.
And you hear the same story all the time, that people who seemed like they have it all are silently struggling. And I will say that I've built a career that allows me to be vulnerable and honest and talk about feelings. I kind of built a brand around my inability to shut up about my feelings. And I didn't do that as a marketing tactic. I did that because I can't function any other way.
And I'm grateful that somehow, it's like, "Oh, he's that guy that does that now," and it allows me to do it. But then you have people like Simone Biles, who at the height of attention at the Olympics, all eyes on her, so much pressure and success and then she not in a context of being a mental health advocate or whatever, whatever we want to say about how people build that awareness into who they are and what they bring. But for her to just be like, "No, no, no, full stop. I'm going to take care of some stuff," that to me is really brave and really impressive.
And I'm glad that we have sort of these newer mental health role models, people that aren't necessarily speaking up because they have built a brand around it or they're selling us something but people who are just speaking up because they have to, because they've reached a point where there's no other choice. And then I'd like to think I'm somewhere in the middle because I am selling a book. But I do also really think that it was time to talk about this. And this book wasn't even called You Are Here For Now until a year ago. I changed it in the homestretch because I was like, "This book needs to get more urgent and be more vulnerable and be more honest."
And you know my work. So, it was already all of those things but I pushed it even further to connect more dots and to just say, "Hey, I'm actually not okay. And I would like to be okay. And here are the things that help me be a little bit more okay. But I'm not 100% okay and I know you're probably not either and here is why that's fine." And literally, here's why you shouldn't die. There's an entire chapter that's called reasons to stay alive. It is that literal in parts because at one point or another, I really believed every one does need to be having that conversation.
Okay, triggered. I triggered myself. Can I have some water?

Chris:

Yeah. So, I want to follow up with that a little bit because ... And let me know if I'm going too far on something. When you say you have a brain that's kind of wired a certain way to kind of have feelings of sadness and great joy, the kind of the valleys and the peaks if you will, is that just how you're hardwired? Is that a chemical, neurological thing or are there other kind of traumas that you've had to live through that have shaped that thinking?

Adam:

I think it's both. It's like I'm definitely mentally ill. That's been confirmed. But I have also, as have many people or even most people, have lived through things that were very intense or difficult or traumatic to me. And the thing about trauma is that what to one person might be totally fine can be extremely traumatic to someone else. So, it's not a contest of who's the most traumatized by the worst thing that could happen, it's just about understanding, "Hey, this is the thing that actually has maybe impacted me more than I realized for whatever reason."
So, I've had a lot of interesting experiences and haven't enjoyed all of them is a gentle way to put it. I'm also mentally ill and I take my medicine and it helps, and I highly recommend it. I don't exactly say that in the book but I sort of say at one point where I'm like, "Yeah, take your ... Science is real, so just fucking find a health team that you trust and then work with them so that you can feel better."

Chris:

In order for you to kind of just push through and help to regulate, some of it is medicine? Is some of it working with the therapist and some of it just writing, does that help you?

Adam:

Yeah. That's sort of my whole deal, is creating art therapy tools, my guided journals and my planners. Writing is such a huge important tool for getting emotions out and for really processing through things, and also just for calming down. And planning ahead, having something to look forward to is a really important part of wanting to be here. Making future plans, or I should say not having things to look forward to, not making plans for the future can often be an indicator that you're not anticipating a future, that you're not excited about a future. So that can be a little bit of a warning sign too.
I do have a therapist. I've been off and on with therapy since I was a teenager, and I find it so helpful to have somewhere to put the inside of my brain for someone who can hear it and learn the way I think and then helps me process. I'll say having a therapist is very different than having close friends or family because when you say something to someone in your life, you can't unsay it.
Those people might love you and they're very here for it. But there is also an element of like, okay, well now they know this thing. Or okay, well, maybe it's hard for them to hear that because they love me so much and so now they're worried for me in a different way. I'm saying this incorrectly. I don't want to discourage anyone from reaching out for help.
I guess what I'm saying is that for me, venting to a therapist is better than venting to my husband every single day. And part of me loving him or loving my close friends is leaning on them sometimes but not for an hour every single week.

Chris:

Right. I think finding that balance is really important because you also don't want your entire relationship to be built around them trying to support you through all the stuff that you're going through, that they say it takes a village to raise a child and sometimes, it takes a village to raise a healthy adult, right?

Adam:

Yeah.

Chris:

And you need these different people in your life. And I found speaking to a therapist has been wonderful because they have the tools, the training. They know how to listen very carefully and they make it about you. And it's very objective, so we don't have to like cross into dangerous territory and then have to live with what we said days and weeks and months later.

Adam:

Yeah. I think that's maybe the number one thing, is when you talk to people in your life, friends and family, you have to at least think a little bit about what you have to say. And for some people, I've heard that some people think before they speak and that's very cool. I can't relate but it maybe helps the process of asking for help from a family or friend.
But for me, I am often thinking as I'm speaking. And so to have a therapist that I can be completely unguarded with and really just blurted out and then she can be like, "Okay, let's pause. Here's what you just said. Is this how you really feel? No, it's not? Or, okay, yes it is but why is that and let's talk about it." And that's super helpful. And also, I highly recommend being a guest on podcasts, it's like getting free therapy.

Chris:

I agree.

Adam:

Yeah. Everyone should do like a podcast tour.

Chris:

I think we just need space to be able to verbally process our thinking and just practice articulating too. I think you're just messing around with me but-

Adam:

But you're right. Just verbally communicating it all. I talked to my therapist about this because I've started recording videos to myself. And I said, "Why am I doing this? Is this good? Is there anything to this?" And she said that, "You know, just speaking something aloud that even if you've been thinking about it in your head for an hour is different. It feels different and can have a different effect."
And so part of me is like, "Should I just become someone who talks to themselves?" Not in public but like at home, is it okay? I'm wondering. Maybe in the mirror, like I just sit down and have coffee with myself. I don't know.

Chris:

But if you have that skill, the ability to talk to yourself, by yourself, you'd make an excellent vlogger because I cannot do that. I just can't.

Adam:

It's a lot. I could probably sit down and just talk for 30 minutes. I could definitely have a YouTube channel, but no one would watch it. The ship has sailed for me.

Chris:

I'm not sure that's true. But you know what? I have to share this with you, you're probably going to get upset at me, which is when I read your posts and when I hear you speak, I think, gosh, he's so relatable. He's got these struggles and I can see. I'm very aware. I'm looking around the room like I think everybody is leaning in here. This is good.
Then I think to myself, "Man, I wish I struggled through that so I can talk about that." And sometimes, I think just because my own identity is around being a good teacher, that I'm a terrible teacher because I just think tomorrow I'm going to have to do something and I just do it, and I don't have that internal voice that's saying, "Well, are you really ready for this?" I don't have those same ideas, and so I'm fascinated and it maybe this grass is greener like where you're able to write, it feels very much heart-centered self. And when I write, I'm like, "Is this a robot? Who's writing this?"

Adam:

Well, we are fundamentally different people, which is what I like about us. I think that's why I come back to our friendship because I love how different we are. We really don't compute. We are polar opposites, but not in a bad way, I think in a really beautiful and functional way. And so the way that you teach and the way that you educate others, the way that you build community around education really requires you to put focus on your reader, on your viewer, on your listener.
And so there is a sense of pulling yourself out of it because you're speaking about their experience. And that's the way that you are imparting knowledge and wisdom and your own experience in the industry and navigating client work. Even the way that you calculate like how much to charge and how to make sure that you're creating the value to get that rate, you're very logical in that way.
And my way of communicating and imparting wisdom is to basically be like, "Blah-blah-blah, I'm so dumb. Here's what I did. Don't do this." And so it's very much me. Like I said earlier, I'm kind of the butt of my own joke in the service of communicating what I have to say. But if I were trying to give a talk about how to price your work, how to increase your rates, and I came out and I said, "Well, I charge this but you shouldn't do that. You should charge more." Then it's like, "Well, why? You didn't really impress on me your ability to know the answer or succeed at taking your own advice."
We just do totally different things. We have different missions. Your mission is to help and educate a billion people and my mission is to just not die too soon. And even that is a new mission because it used to be that I wanted to die ASAP. And now, I'm like, "Well, let me make sure that my husband is set up for after I go."

Chris:

Right. Oh, my goodness.

Adam:

I'm still trying to decide like should I be buried or cremated because if you want to be buried, you have to buy those plots early. They fill up. That's my top concern. Everyone, please pre-order my book, You Are Here For Now, so that I can afford a really nice burial plot.

Chris:

Do you already have one picked out?

Adam:

No. I think I want to be cremated. Jews don't do that but I think I don't want to take up more space. I've been taking up space my whole life. Just burn me to a crisp and throw me to the wind.

Chris:

Or maybe they could bury you with a tree or something.

Adam:

No, I think I would love that.

Chris:

That sounds so cool.

Adam:

I kind of like the Japanese cemetery where people are cremated but then the urns are together with your family, so there's a place for people to visit. This is actually, I haven't told anyone yet. I am launching a podcast called You Are Here For Now. And it's just a short series. It's basically a book tour. And we talked about this with my friends, Grace Miceli and Jordan Sondler, both artists who make art from their feelings.
And Jordan also has a weekly clubhouse chat called Dead Parents Club. And so we really talked about the importance of her father's resting place, not for his wishes so much as so that she has somewhere to go. And he wanted her and her family to have a place that they could come together. And it was a really ... I sort of talked about it the same way I'm talking about it here where I was very glib and I was like, "Blah-blah-blah, burn me and throw me in the sky." And Jordan was like, "Well, I'm really grateful that I have a place to go." And then I had to be like, "Oh, oh, oh, right, right."
Death is funny maybe as a way to cope but it really has a big impact in people's lives too and we need to talk about it with more respect and understanding. That was a really powerful and hopeful conversation from someone that I know and respect as an illustrator about this other thing that we had never spoken about even as friends.

Chris:

Yeah. I think it's the aftermath of when you're gone, that the decisions that you make may profoundly impact the people you care the most about, right?

Adam:

I think so.

Chris:

Yeah, and to help them to process the grieving. They may need more than you just being scattered to the wind.

Adam:

Yeah. I think in my case, you can scatter me because like no one is going to care that much. But in her case, a lot of people cared. I'm just being funny, but I'm like hearing myself and I'm like, "Adam, this isn't funny. Slow down." I didn't really think before I said that long. Okay, scratch that from the pod. Jesus.

Chris:

Okay, wait. There's something here though. I want to kind of just ask this question. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it to you. As a person who is constantly aware of their own mortality thinking about when you may expire and just having that present in your mind, how does that impact the decisions that you make, how you live, how you love, how you laugh? And what motivates you if you think that you have a very short time on earth?

Adam:

That's a great question. That's something that I have thought about a lot lately. And that is a theme that comes out in the book, not just the title. But I talk about this living every day like you're dying is exhausting and yet it's important to be aware of maybe not your mortality but how special it is to be alive while you are alive so that you can make sure that you're doing the things that you'd like to do, that you want to do, that you should be doing while you can.
And that is really the core thesis of this book, You Are Here For Now, is like TikTok. You're alive and that's incredible, so it's time to do those things that you know you should be doing that you've been putting off. For me, a big one was actually changing my medication that I was on because I kind of realized, "Hey, it's not quite working anymore because I'm getting older." My body is changing, my brain is changing, and I'm wasting ... Not wasting time because I'm still here, I'm still functioning whatever. But I could be a better version of me if only I change up my meds.
And I realized as I was working on this book that I can make this book and ignore this very foundational advice that directly impacts my everyday functionality. And so I got a new doctor and we talked about it and changed things up. And there's a period of adjustment and you have to watch out for side effects and all this stuff. And now, I'm doing great and I'm actually feeling a lot better than maybe I would feel if I were just trying to tough through it.
And so it was intimidating to ask for a different kind of help, and it was intimidating to try something new that might not work and the feeling of when you're on a medication that's not working sucks. And it really can disrupt your life, but I'm still glad I did it. And I just genuinely feel like it was me making the book and realizing like, "Okay, if you don't take your own advice, then you're a liar. I know you don't want to be liar, Adam, so fucking do it."

Chris:

Oh my. You know what? I think of this ... I admire you in a lot of different things that you do. I noticed how direct you are, how seemingly at ease it is for you to speak your mind and say no to people, especially when you think my spider sense tells me this isn't right for me. Does that come from this place where you think, "Well, if I only have three days to live, why would I agree to do this?" where does that come from, that strength?

Adam:

I don't think that it is the three days to live. I don't think that way. I don't think it's three days or I don't think like there's a ticking time bomb. But I do think that part of navigating life as a person who has a mental illness, or any sort of condition, because there's so many people who has medical issues that we don't know about, that are invisible, that it's none of our business to know. There are so many people navigating life with an extra layer of something.
And so having to create these boundaries and having to keep your guard up a little bit, that's how you cope. That's how you survive. And to me, that spider sense as you described it, that's really just an extension of that. It's just knowing how to at least try to look out for yourself.
And I will also say, this saying no thing, I feel like there was a minute when we were all talking about like say yes, say yes to life, say yes. And it's like, "Yeah, say yes but you have to say no in order to say yes because if you don't have time, then what happens when you get to the thing you really want to say yes to and you're so busy doing all this dumb shit that you wish you had said no to?"
So sometimes, you got to say yes to yourself by saying no to a client that you wish you could fire or saying no to a personal project that has been stretching on for three years and that you're no longer passionate about. Or in my case, maybe you say no to the initial concept of a book that you pitched that was sold that you could have been paid for, but you had to say no because you realize it wasn't true enough anymore, or that it wasn't the version of the book that you wanted to put out, that you didn't want to say all those things or say those things in that way and then have to stand up and not just defend it but aggressively market it and tie your self-worth to the sales metrics of that book while knowing that it could have been better.
So, lately, I have definitely had this exercise of saying no to myself. And that's actually been a little bit new for me.

Chris:

Yes, saying no to other people is hard. Saying no to yourself must be much more difficult.

Adam:

I think so because when you say no to someone else, they might not like it but you can walk away. If you say no to a client, it's like, "Okay." Then they're out of your inbox maybe forever. But to look at your own work and be like, "You know what? I think I've already done this enough. And I need to push further. Well, maybe I don't need to push further but I want to push further." I could put this out. My fans would like this. The publisher would take it. It would be good enough, but to say no to good enough and to really, really push.
I am so glad that I did that and so proud now to sort of be here and tell you, a well-respected designer, who is so much more skilled than me, Chris, to be able to tell you like I love this book that I made. And it's my best work yet. It's pretty awesome. And especially for someone who is pretty self-deprecating, who doesn't always trust in their ability. For me to be so confident, it must be pretty good. I'm pretty sure.

Chris:

Even that statement is pretty reflective in your writing in your belief. "It must be pretty good, I'm pretty sure."

Adam:

Right, maybe, I know. Well, what am I going to do? I'm going to tell you like this is the best book in the world? It's not. It's not the best book in the world. But it is definitely the best work that I can create at this point in my life. When we talk about like don't worry about perfection because you're always getting better, that's true.
And so as of today, this is the best I could do in terms of what I have to say, the design and format of the book, everything from the trim size and the production details, to the storytelling device with the paper metaphor and the photography. I combined everything that I was passionate about and all the skills I have and some new skills I learned, and I made this final product that I'm just obsessed with.

Chris:

I like that. There's two more questions I want to ask you before we split. Is that okay?

Adam:

Yeah.

Chris:

Question one ... And the two questions are somewhat related which is, do you feel successful, Adam?

Adam:

I do feel successful. And that's got to be the antidepressants talking, right?

Chris:

The medicine is working.

Adam:

If you ask me that the last time I was on your podcast, I bet I would have said no, or I would have like dodge the question with a joke. But no, I actually feel successful because I am able to reach into myself and make art for my feelings and then share them with others who receive the work and feel seen and heard by the work. And that work sustains me financially enough that I can live.
So, I'm able to actually help myself through my art, help other people and survive capitalism. That's got to be success.

Chris:

It sounds like success to me.

Adam:

Yeah.

Chris:

Here's the second question because there's something that you touched upon in the book that I'm trying to process. As I mentioned before, your person has as a large social media following and in the book you talk about this speed of the internet about how we're keeping scorecard and how we're constantly comparing ourselves and the need for validation for likes and comments.
And then you say also that you'll post something and it didn't work and then you delete it, can you tell me a little bit more about what's going on in your mind?

Adam:

I described it in the book as like I'm a flop and nobody stands a flop. And I remember that when my editor read that line, or it went to like the proofreading department, they came back and they're like, "What does this mean?" And I was like, "Don't worry about it." When I make something and I post it and I thought people were going to like it and comment and then no one said shit, I'm just like, "Okay, well, better luck next time."
And so I don't feel like, "Oh, I'm a failure. My work is garbage." I just feel like, "Oh, okay, I hit the wrong nerve today or I didn't catch the zeitgeist or the platforms algorithm didn't share it." And so it's a little bit whatever. I don't think it's like the end of my life. It's just like, "All right, well, I will just post some other thing."
And maybe I'll post right after the same day, maybe I'm just not going to post for three more days. I just can't anymore. I know we all want to have a lot of followers because it literally gets us work and it helps justify higher rates. And it brings clients and maybe it like tickles this ego element. But as the platforms sort of like tighten the screws more and more and you really feel the algorithm crunch. You really feel the like, "Oh, if I don't post every day, the lack of consistency really hurts my engagement."
At that point, it's like you can tell that blah-blah-blah company, I'm being vague because I work with all of them. You can really feel like, "Oh, they want to be my boss. They really want me to deliver a finished work every single day, seven days a week from now until the end of time so that they can sandwich ads in between them." And for me, if it doesn't feel good, I don't want to do it and it stopped feeling good.

Chris:

Okay, I have friends. I'm just going to say it this way. I have friends who are-

Adam:

I'm so happy that you have friends, Chris. I'm one of that.

Chris:

That's a newsflash right there, everybody.

Adam:

Breaking ... Yeah, put that at the top of the pod.

Chris:

That struggle with this kind of self and they say, 'Oh, Instagram doesn't work for me. I'm terrible at writing." And the go through this kind of very negative downward spiral and I just say, "You know what? If you do something that doesn't give you joy, you need to take a time out," because you have to ask yourself why the heck are you doing this.

Adam:

Just take a break.

Chris:

And come back when it gives you joy.

Adam:

And come back with a new approach. I'll say this. I'll come across someone's Instagram account and literally, I'll look at it. I'm like this person wants to be Chris Do. You can't confirm or deny, you can't even laugh right now because it will make you seem like an asshole. But people listening to this podcast know what I'm talking about. You get to a page and you get there, and the person who wants to be Chris Do and it's a whole slideshow and there's page numbers in the bottom and the last slide is their own picture and it's just like, "We already got one and he's so good. We don't need you."
So, those people should do something that is true to them because we can feel the difference. If I get to your page and I feel like, "Oh, this person wants to be subliming.jpg, or this person wants to be Jade Purple Brown, or this person wants to be Aaron Draplin," and as a result, their own humanity is removed from the work. I don't want to follow that because I'll just go to the source.
But if I get to a page and I'm seeing a very specific art, and it doesn't even have to be good. Objectively, maybe it's bad but it's consistent and it's that person. And I can find the thing about it that's interesting, and then I want to follow and watch you grow.
And so there are people who I followed when they had 1,000 followers maybe who a couple of years later are now doing big gigs. There's an artist I can think of, I don't want to embarrass them by saying their name or even revealing any details about them. But I was an early follower, I was like follower number 800. And now, they work for like Nike and Adidas and all these big brands, and their work has grown and it has definitely improved. It's gotten tighter as they found their voice. But that core weirdness is still there and it's that weirdness that drew me in.
If you're hating it because it's not feeling good, do the thing that feels good even if you feel like, "Oh, everyone on the platform actually likes this better." This is the kind of Instagram that does well. It's like, "No, that's the kind of Instagram that you see doing well. It's not the only thing that works on this huge platform with like millions and millions of users. You don't know everything that works, and you also don't always know what's good about your own art."
And I would like to add one more thing, but let me pause so that you have a chance.

Chris:

It's good, keep going, yeah.

Adam:

I will say that something that happened with me in my art and my design work is over time, my work that I thought was like kind of the worst or not that great, or that I completed quickly. It's like you spend hours on something and then the thing that took you 30 seconds is what everyone loves. And over the last decade, the style that I'm most known for now, I really grew into that after realizing that that's what people liked for me best. That's what I like making the most and that's what felt the most honest.
And I did this artwork in 2013. It's just a post-it note with a whole cutout of it to look like a sunburst. And it says, "Everything will be so good so soon. Just hang in there and don't worry about it too much." And I literally made that as just like a card from my friend. She was in the hospital, so I texted her a photo and then I scanned it and I posted it on my Tumblr. And that one image has millions of reblogs and reshares. It's been ripped off by brands. It's been ripped off by brands who I then invoiced and paid me, and it's been made into merch.
This one thing that I thought was a throwaway ended up really coming to define the direction that I shifted my work in and became the guiding force for this new book. And so when you get the book, you'll see that the back cover is completely blank except for that artwork, because that artwork taught me that you don't always know what your own best thing is and you don't always know that your secret sauce is. But once you start to figure it out and you tap into it, that's when you can really grow and that's when the "magic" happens.

Chris:

I think that's an awesome way to end our conversation, Adam.

Adam:

Thank you.

Chris:

My guest has been Adam Kurtz, otherwise known as Adam JK on social media. His new book, You Are Here For Now: A Guide to Finding Your Way, is out now.

Adam:

That's the book. That's me. Chris, thanks for having me. I love hearing your voice. I wish we could all see your face, very handsome guy.

Chris:

Oh, thanks. We'll make sure that we begin the conversation that way.

Adam:

Yeah. If you could put it at the top, "Hi, I'm Adam JK. I'm thrilled to be on a podcast with a very handsome, Chris Do."

Chris:

Its' nice chatting with you. And also, just I think I understand now where the book comes from and how it was written because I feel like I'm hearing you from the stage, the stories that you've shared now captured in the book. And I get to kind of relive those stories. It's really nice to just be able to read that and just tie it back to things I've heard you say. It's neat and it's also good to hear that you're in a good mental health place and that you get to go home to New York again.

Adam:

Yeah. I can't wait to eat a bagel, Chris. That's all I want.

Chris:

Is that what you're looking for to most, the bagel?

Adam:

I bought tickets to an event called BagelFest.

Chris:

Oh, my gosh. You're serious about this.

Adam:

They gave it to me for free actually, so maybe I am famous.

Chris:

Yeah.

Adam:

Hey, everyone, it's Adam JK. And you're listening to The Futur.

Greg Gunn:

Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is host by Chis Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony Baro for editing and mixing this episode, and thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music.
If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me, head over to thefutur.com/heychris and ask away. We read every submission, and we just might answer yours in a later episode.
If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefutur.com to find video courses, digital products and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

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