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Chris Do

Life is about making hard decisions. When things don’t work out, don’t change your goal. Change the plan.

Just Do The Work (Pt. 3)
Just Do The Work (Pt. 3)

Just Do The Work (Pt. 3)

Ep
178
Mar
02
With
Chris Do
Or Listen On:

You can get results or you can make excuses.

In the final episode of our three-part passion versus profit series, Chris and Rodrigo agree to never have this conversation again. In exchange, Rodrigo makes a public commitment to remain focused on his business and sets a clear financial goal.

But it doesn’t end there. Chris helps Rodrigo plot the course to achieve that goal and offers a useful equation that anyone can use to do the same.

To wrap up this conversational trilogy, Chris reminds us that life is about making hard decisions. When things don’t work out, don’t change your goal. Change the plan.

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Episode Transcript

Chris:
Find someone who can help you commit to the plan and just do the freaking work, whatever they tell you to do whatever your coach is, whoever your mentor is, and your mentor could be yourself. Whatever you tell yourself to do, just do the work. You can either get the results or you can make excuses. That's it. You have to choose.
All right. Can we make a deal? Drigo, you and me right now?

Rodrigo:
Let's do it.

Chris:
I never want to have this conversation with you again. I need you to publicly declare, I'm committed to seeing this through for the next three years. It's either fail or die trying for the next three years to get you to that $600,000 mark. Make that commitment.

Rodrigo:
For the next three years. I'm committing myself in front of the 250 plus people in this room that I'm going to be working towards reaching that $600,000 mark.

Chris:
And as your friend, I will help you get there. I will help you get there. You and I, we don't talk enough. So we'll talk a little bit more, right?

Rodrigo:
Well, I appreciate that.

Chris:
And what we're going to do is every once in a while, maybe every quarter, we're going to report our progress. And all of you who are listening to us, all 200 plus people in this room, can follow along and see the kind of progress he can make. So the first thing that we do is we set a goal. The goal is to get to $400,000 this year. Is that a reasonable for you?

Rodrigo:
That is a scary goal for me.

Chris:
What goal makes more sense then because we have three years to get to the 600K?

Rodrigo:
I want to say 300 sounds more reasonable for me.

Chris:
Okay. I like that. I like that. So $300,000 means you need to be able to gross $30,000 a month. So I need you to write that down. So right now I don't want you to commit it. With a pen and paper, write this down 2022 December, I will have gross $300,000 in revenue. And that means that I need to earn $30,000 a month for the average of the next 10 months. So some months you might make 50, some months you might make 20. And now you have to start thinking about your life and your business that you can do something that'll earn you $30,000 a month. Now, usually I follow up with a question like this, how many projects a month do you want to work on? So can you tell me the answer to that?

Rodrigo:
At that rate, three projects a month.

Chris:
I heard you say two projects. So you're going to do two projects means you have to find clients who are willing to pay you $15,000 to produce a video for them.

Rodrigo:
Sorry, I got cut out. I said three.

Chris:
No, I heard you say two. So we're going to do two projects a month at 15K per project. So you have to ask yourself, who in this world would be thrilled to pay me $15,000 to make them a video? I want you to spend some of your time and energy in the next week and spitball some ideas. We'll do another call and you'll tell me what kind of client would pay that. So see, in my world, 30, $40,000 for a video is really low budget. So I just need you to reframe your mind that there are other people out there, not the people you're talking to today, or people you're talking today, but not the kinds of projects you're willing to do for them. When you figure that out, you'll make a lot of money.
Now I have other creative ways and I don't want spin to this room into another thousand pieces because I think we finally got to a point of clarity and I don't want to risk spinning us out into a state of confusion again. So I'm going to hold onto this moment. I want you to spend all of your time thinking. Go to sleep tonight and ask yourself this question every single night until you come up with an answer, okay? Before you close your eyes tonight, I want you to ask yourself, what do I need to do so that a client would pay me $15,000 given my skillset? What kind of clients exist out there who would be thrilled to pay me $15,000 to make them something? Go to sleep. Don't even worry about it. Just ask yourself that question.
I want you to keep a pad of paper and a pen next to your bed. If you have an idea, if your subconscious mind talks to you and you wake up at four in the morning, I need you to turn on the light. I need you to write down the answer, whatever it is, do not even judge it. Just write it down. And don't be so lazy that you're like, I'll remember it in the morning. You will not. Turn on the light. Write it down. And tomorrow if you wake up, you don't have the answer, totally okay. Every single night you ask yourself that same question. You say it out loud. You say it in your mind. You repeat it a couple times then go to sleep. I'll talk to you in a week. I expect to hear a couple ideas from you.
Now. I'm pretty confident in this because I already know the answer, but I want you to find the answer. Okay? So I'm telling you right now, answers, plural, exist. So there's no out in this one. Okay. So everybody here, if you're listening to this and this is exciting you and you're like, you know what? I want this, write down what your goal is for this year. How much money do you want to make? Whatever that number is, it should be based on some data that you have, whether it's numbers that you did last year or somebody that you really trust is in a similar line of work and they're like, here's my data. And you're like, okay, I think given my experience, my skillset, where I live, the kind of clients I'm talking to, this seems like a good goal to reach for. Write that number down and then divide that by 10. And then whatever number you come up with, divide that number by the number of projects you want to do per month. And that's the size of project you need to work on.
So now, Drigo is on the hunt for people who need video help that are willing to pay him $15,000 per project. Now, sadly for you, if I was still in the video making business, I would refer all my clients to you and you'd hit that number probably in two months, meaning your total number. But I don't do video work anymore, so those leads don't come into me right now. But I'll keep my ears open for you. Does this feel like an intervention to you?

Rodrigo:
A little bit.

Chris:
Are we surrounding you and saying, Drigo you have a problem?

Rodrigo:
[inaudible 00:06:06] surrounding me with love, bro. And I always Mo I miss these club... This sounds like one of those Clubhouse calls we used to have till two in the morning right here. But it's like, I think we don't necessarily get to hear these tough conversations all the time. And I think sometimes, especially the beginning of the new year, it's so necessary, right? What's a better way for me to align the rest of my 2022 than having conversations like this and hearing it from people that have my best interest? [crosstalk 00:06:38] because anybody come in a Clubhouse or come on one of these rooms and say anything, but hearing things from you, hearing things from Mo, I know that you guys only want, and everybody else on here, you guys want me to succeed. So it's like, why not?

Chris:
Nidhi, while we're waiting for Heather to come up, do you have any thoughts?

Nidhi:
Yeah. I mean, this has been a really powerful last two days to be honest. And I just think being able to hear Mo and Drigo being able to kind of reflect on their own businesses has made me reflect on mine as well. And really think about the motivation for taking a particular pathway versus doubling down and focusing in. And I think Drigo, you're going to kill it man... And Mo as well. I think the focus piece of it is so critical and both of you are so good at what you do that it'll afford you the opportunity to do the other things just in a little bit. And so I got to remind myself that same message, power through, keep on. I know Chris, you would be real with me if the business ideas I had were shit. And so I take a little bit of... I feel a little bit secure in the idea of doing this pivot and I'm going to continue tuning in to continue learning from these conversations. And so I just appreciate it.

Chris:
I do want to say a couple different things here. Some of my friends feel stuck and I have, I guess a lot of internet friends, people I've not yet to meet in real life. And I'm going to tell this story here. I'm out with my family. I think it's on a Sunday. And one of my friends, her name's Jewel and she DMs me this message. And she goes, "Dang, Chris, it's so fucking frustrating how long it's taken me to get to like 5,000 followers on Instagram." And I call her and I say, "Hey, what's the problem." She goes, "It just sucks. I just don't feel like I'm making any progress. And some days it's just not growing at all, despite everything that I'm trying to do."
And I said to her, "I want to help you. Are you willing to do the work? That whatever I tell you do, will you just do? Because I can help you get to your goal. What is your goal?" She goes, "It would be great to get to 10,000 followers by the end of the year. But mind you, it's taken me years to get to 5,000." And I said to her, "I can help you get there, but you need to commit right now that you're going to do the work and get there." And she goes, "Okay, I'll do that." I said, "Are you sure?" She goes, "I will do that."
And there's something I know about Jewel. She is a worker and when she says she's going to do something, she will do it. And I said, "Okay, look, I can help you get to 10,000 followers. Here's what I want you to do. And I believe it won't even take all year." She goes, "Okay, what is it?"
And I give her a laundry list of things to do. And the first thing she says to me is like, "I didn't want to do that." I said, "Jewel." She goes, "I'll do it. Nevermind." I told her she needs to make two posts a day and they have to be of this nature. And they need to look and sound like this. And I need you to clear out all the other stuff that doesn't make sense on your feed. Because when someone looks at your feed on Instagram and it's a little bit confused, they have to make a decision. Do I want to follow this person? What kind of information I going to get from them? And are they going to junk up my timeline?
Jewell, to her credit goes in. She starts archiving all the things that don't make sense based on what we want to talk about. And she starts posting things and I tell her what to do. And to her surprise, it didn't take us three months to get her to 10,000 followers. It took her one month. And she's blown away. She's ecstatic. I call her up again, "Jewel, what do you want to do now?" She goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "I mean, what's your next goal?" She goes, "That was the goal." I said, "No, the next goal is to get to 20,000 followers." She goes, "Chris, are you crazy? Absolutely. Let's do the work."
And sure enough, she's at 20,000 followers. It's now end of November. She's already zoomed passed all of her goals in such short period of time. And then I call her up again, sound familiar, I said, "What's the next goal, jewel." She goes, "Chris, don't kill me." I said, "Let's get to 30,000 followers." She's like, "By when?" "Oh, in one month." And that's when she pretty much fainted. I'm like, "I'm just kidding. You deserve a break. Enjoy your holidays."
So you see, for her, she didn't think it was possible. She believed it to be possible. She committed to doing the work. She committed to doing the things she didn't want to do and didn't believe in. But she followed the plan. A plan was given, she did all the work. So in less than half a year, actually, probably just four months, she quadrupled her number of followers by following a plan.
Drigo this is for you. Mo this is for you. Everybody who's listening to this, find someone who can help you, commit to the plan and just do the freaking work. Whatever they tell you to do, whoever your coach is, whoever your mentor is, and your mentor could be yourself, whatever you tell yourself to do, just do the work. You can either get the results or you can make excuses. That's it. You have to choose.
Heather. You were up here. I'd love for you to ask her your question or comment.

Heather:
Hi Chris.

Chris:
Hi Heather. [crosstalk 00:11:52].

Heather:
You okay?

Chris:
Yeah.

Heather:
Okay. So what if you've been doing a lot of work for a really long time and it's not yielding the results. And you were talking about raising your rate and pivoting and trying to adjust and create your dream job. I would love to hear those steps broken down a little more. In my own experience, I'm definitely at a point where what I've been doing is not working. So I'm looking for a way to adjust or figure out what needs to be tweaked.

Chris:
Okay. Thank you very much. So I'm a big believer in this. When things don't work out, don't change your goals, change the plan. So when things don't work, the plan isn't good. Throw the plan out. Don't get attached to the plan. In order for me to really, truly answer your question though, I need some more specific information. So you've been doing something for a number of years, it's not getting you to where you want to be. So I don't know how much you're willing to disclose, but I need to know where you want to be.

Heather:
Okay. So where I would like to be right now is what I'd like to earn a year is definitely 100,000. Right now I would say, this year, last year, we're probably going to come in around somewhere between 65 and 70. This has been a year of experimentation and kind of trying out different things. So I took a little bit of a hit. So I am working as a motion graphics artist. I've been on the programming committee with a Bend Design Conference for five years and I've just stepped away. So I'm looking for a way to increase the income as well as to step into a position of more authority to raise the income level.

Chris:
Okay.

Heather:
Is that enough?

Chris:
Yeah, it is enough for now, but I have more questions for you. So for everyone who's listening, what is it that you do?

Heather:
So I'm a motion graphics artist. I've been doing that for a long time. I've also done a lot of graphic design. I've been on the programming committee for the Bend Design conference for five years, which has included, curating speakers, entertainment, creating exhibits, running their social media account, procuring films, and being the intermediary between the speakers and the actual president of the Bend Design Conference.

Chris:
Okay. I heard you say two things. One is you're motion graphics designer and artist. And the other is you volunteer to work at a conference.

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Of those two things, which one is going to get you to your goal?

Heather:
Oh, this is a very good question. I don't know, Chris.

Chris:
How much money do you make volunteering to be part of this design conference?

Heather:
Nothing.

Chris:
Like nothing, nothing?

Heather:
Like... Okay-

Chris:
$2?

Heather:
... to create their exhibits, I think I made $2,000 a year and I mean, nothing, nothing. What it did give me was an amazing opportunity to connect with people who had potential opportunities. So that was great.

Chris:
Can you trade in those connections for real money?

Heather:
Some of them, yes. And I've done that and some of them, no.

Chris:
Okay. I'm going to ask you again. So life is about making hard decisions and the reason why a lot of us don't have success is because we can't make the hard decisions. That's why they say the person that gets to pay the most amount of money in any company or organization is the one who was able to make the hardest decisions, right? I think it was former president Barack Obama. Is like, what kind of hard decisions do you have? And he says, "I only get hard decisions. All the easy decisions have been made before they reach my desk." So every decision makes his hair turn a little bit more white, because there are no easy decisions left. So you are the present of Heather Incorporated. You follow me so far, Heather?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Okay. So as the president of Heather Incorporated, you have put in front of yourself, two decisions. Do I put more effort and energy into participating in volunteering part of the Bend Design Conference? Or do I work on my motion graphics design business so that I can reach my goal?

Heather:
Yes. This is true. This is true.

Chris:
What's the answer?

Heather:
I've pulled in both directions.

Chris:
Oh my God. All I have are people who can't make decisions up on stage with me. What is going on?

Heather:
So here's the rub. When I'm working with the Bend Design Conference, I feel more alive. I feel like that's something that is probably more akin to what lights me up versus just working as a motion graphics artist, which feels a little bit more contained, more of a grind. And not that I don't love it, but the humanitarian Bend is definitely more appealing to me, but there has been no money. So the motion graphics thing has been the place where the money has always been. So therein lies the issue.

Chris:
I would like to pull this audience here.

Heather:
[inaudible 00:17:29].

Chris:
Okay. Let me quickly review. Let me quickly review. Yesterday, Mo comes and say, "Chris, should I make a product or focus on my service business?" Drigo's like, "Chris, should I continue my service business of making videos for people or should I be a YouTuber?" Heather is coming up on stage, "Well, should I continue volunteering for an organization that pays me practically nothing or should I focus on the business that makes me all my money?"
And for each and every single one of them they're torn, they're completely torn. She's like, "But the feeling Chris that I get from this, I feel." And last time I checked, you can't pay the rent on feelings. I'm going to quote my friend here. My friend said, "Feeling feelings are not facts." Who said that? Nidhi said that. Feelings are not facts. Feelings cloud the mind. And you know, as a Star Wars fan, you know what Yoda said about this? Fear leads to anger, anger leads to dark side. This is where your feelings get you. We can't train you in the [inaudible 00:18:29] ways. It's too late for you.

Nidhi:
That was good, Chris. That was a good-

Mo:
That was so good.

Nidhi:
Hey there, dang.

Chris:
I could do two voices. The one you're hearing and Yoda, I don't know. That's the extent of my talent there. So Heather... After listening, I know you were here last night too, I believe. And Mo's going on and we're like, Mo, get it together, man. Make the right decision.

Rodrigo:
I mean, Mo-

Chris:
Go ahead Drigo.

Rodrigo:
I'd say Mo's a little bit harder because Mo's making some money. Heather's made $2,000. So I give Mo a little bit more prompts.

Chris:
Yeah. But Heather's made connections. You can't discount that.

Rodrigo:
Mo made dollars.

Mo:
I want to focus in on something here, which is my goal for the next few conversations with you, Chris. And I know we took it to my emotional state yesterday, but at the core of this and correct me if I'm wrong, Heather, I personally want to learn the art of making strong, strategic decisions while in focus. And our issues right now are tied... Now that I'm hearing more people and I'm not in it with you, right? There's a fulfillment side and there's a business side.
And we are not as savvy entrepreneurs as you are to just look at it logically and objectively. And we be like, well, data says this, bro. You might as well [inaudible 00:19:53] eat the shit, do the work, get the money. Because there's that pull of where there'll be connections, time, relationships, creative prowess, whatever it may be. So I would like over our next few calls, how to align your thinking and make better strategic decisions, so when we find ourselves alone, not in a room of 200 people with powerhouses like yourself, [Neil 00:20:15] and Nidhi, we can tap into those frameworks and make those decisions and do it confidently.

Chris:
Does Heather's story sound remarkably familiar to you? Man, Mo, it's kind of interesting the language that you use to describe what's going on. You're like okay, dude, bro, it's time to eat this stuff, eat the stuff, do the work and shut up. You make it sound like using your brain, your intellect, your charisma, your storytelling abilities, and filming people doing stuff, and editing and cutting together some uniquely funny memorable videos for other people on social media, is a horrible thing on earth to do.
Eat the stuff. How is that eating the stuff? I want you to go and dig some ditches tomorrow for a week and then come back and tell me with a little bit of gratitude, with a little bit of optimism, that what you're doing is a gift. Please, how is making video content for people that you like, for people that you admire to help them grow in their business and their life, how is that eating this stuff? Tell me, please.

Mo:
It's not the making of the video content. That's not the battle that I'm going through. I will sit and do that all the time. The creating the content, being creative, writing, filming people, making them have fun, all of that kind of stuff. For me, personally, it's the part of operations. It's the part of the boring, the mundane, the repetitive. And I know my flaws and it's getting more disciplined, getting comfortable in the redundant because those are the areas that are not familiar for me. I say that I'm a learned entrepreneur.
I know what you're talking about as far as my language. And that is probably something that I do need to get better at, if it came across ungrateful. But the area that I want to continue to grow around this conversation is the decision making, the discipline around the decision making.

Chris:
Okay.

Mo:
And being able to make those actions after the decisions.

Chris:
Yeah. You know I'm a fan of the Ultimate Fighting Championship, right? I'm a big fan of mixed martial arts. And in a very famous clip that is just on virtual loop, Dana White says to a house full of prospects who want to be stars in Ultimate Fighting Championship to make this to profession. He stares at them, yelling at them, he says, "Do you want to be an ultimate fighter?" And they all seem to say they want to be an ultimate fighter. But then they miss weight, they miss practice, they climb the fence, they break the rules and get kicked out of the show, never to be in the UFC ever.
And I ask you this question, each and every single one of you out there, do you want to be an entrepreneur or you just like the idea of being an entrepreneur? Because you know what? It's a lot easier to do a nine to five job, to go work for someone else. You don't have to do that management, operational stuff, client onboarding. You don't have to worry about cashflow. You don't have to take any of the risk, but you all tell me, I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to take my life in my hands. I want to write the chapter of my life. I want to have control.
So I got to tell you something. Part of being an entrepreneur, not a want entrepreneur is you got to do that stuff. You have to, until you can afford to pay someone else to do that. That's what it takes. It's not sitting in the Lambo, drinking their champagne on the yacht. It's this stuff, staying up late, thinking about how do I make this thing work? My plan isn't working. I have to change the plan.
It sucks. Everybody is outside throwing money around NFTs. Everybody's outside having fun, being a YouTuber, being an influencer. But I'm going to sit here and I'm going to do the work. The work that no one wants to do, that's why I'm going to make that money. I'm going to have that success and ultimately buy my freedom. It's part of it. And on a different day, we're going to talk about language that we use because the language that we use, the words, they tell us how we feel about an experience. And so we have to be very mindful of the language that we use to describe something.
I don't ever wake up in my life and it's like, I got to do that crappy influencer thing. I have to make a stupid post today. If I tell myself that, all of a sudden, this thing that I love to do becomes a job. It becomes a chore. It becomes torturous for me. I don't want to tell myself that story. So hold onto that thought, I'm coming back to Heather.
So Heather, you want to make $100,000 a year. I believe with your skillset, with what you do, that is such an easy goal to hit. I'm just going to say it, but there's something that's preventing you from getting it. What do you think that is?

Heather:
That's a good question. I'm not sure at this point... I actually was thinking a lot about this the other day. And listening to your talk today, I'm beginning to think that I need to chart which would help me reach that goal and to be more aware of how much is coming in from each job. And like you were saying, break it into 10. I think the clients I'm working with right now work me pretty hard for not enough money. I think that's probably the big issue.

Chris:
Yeah. Hmm. Okay. So part of the problem is you're not charging enough or you're not working with the right clients or combination of both, right?

Heather:
Yes. Okay. So I'm going to come back to you. I'm going to quickly bounce over to Nidhi and I'm going to come back to you. Okay. Nidhi.

Nidhi:
Yeah. I just had a thought Chris, based off of what Mo had shared. And something that had come up for me and Mo as you were speaking earlier, just a couple of minutes ago, is that it sounds like the internal compass is something to kind of hone in a little bit, right? And the question that came to mind that perhaps maybe helpful ask yourself in those moments of... where something... the shiny, I think of it as shiny object syndrome. I struggle with it too, where it's like, Ooh, this would be really cool. Oh, man, that sounds exciting. To check in and do like a gut check, like a checking in intuitively about, is this truly misalignment or is it avoidance? Because I think that that's where the discernment has to come into play. Right?
If it's misalignment, if it feels like this is no longer in alignment with where my goals are, then that's one thing. But if it's avoidance because it's piece of an activity or a part of the entrepreneurial journey, that just sucks, right. It just is a bummer to have to engage in. That's a different story. So that was just a thought that came to mind that I wanted to contribute. Is it misalignment or is it avoidance and using discernment to kind of help to hone in your inner compass in those moments?

Chris:
Oh, I love that question. Mo, is it misalignment or avoidance?

Mo:
When you use the word discernment, I thought Brene Brown's most recent podcast where she changes the scripture to discernment. So I love that. Is it misalignment or avoidance? Come back to me on that because that's a whole nother call. Some of it is avoidance. Some of it is misalignment. But let me get in my discernment bag and figure it out. And then we can talk about it.

Chris:
Drigo. Is it misalignment or avoidance for you?

Rodrigo:
Misalignment.

Chris:
Can you expand or is it just one word answer day?

Rodrigo:
I don't want to expand because I'm not like in a good head space, [inaudible 00:28:00] bro.

Chris:
Yes, yes. No more questions Rodrigo. You know what you need to do, stay there. Drigo, with that, I'm going to say goodnight to you. Go to sleep, ask yourself that question. Okay. And then come back to me in a week. I think we're in a good place with you. Let's not stir it up and the water's very clear right now. Let it settle and the mud will go down. Okay. Excellent.

Rodrigo:
All right-

Chris:
All right, man.

Rodrigo:
I appreciate that.

Chris:
All right. Thank you very much for prompting this conversation today and for sharing so openly and transparently. It's the things that I really admire about the two of you guys that no matter what, you're like, you know what? I don't care what anybody thinks or whatever. I'm going to share because I want some help and it's the price of getting help. You have to be clear and open and honest.
All right. So thanks very much. I want to read this tweet, then going to go back to Heather here, from Elvira. I think it's how you say your name. She's like, "Hey, I get where Christ Do is going with all this but the tone is so doom and gloom." Is my tone doom and gloom? People are like throwing up to 100% and [inaudible 00:29:02] dare you. What is doom and gloom about what I'm saying? I thought I was trying to be motivational and inspirational, those words, I would choose. Mo, how am I being doom and gloom right now?

Mo:
If this is relating to you and it's hard to hear, that may be a moment for some reflection. I don't know. That's my opinion because that's how I operate. Well, there are moments when I hear things from Chris and they may be hard in the moment, but I fully trust Chris and it's like, okay, take a second. Why? And he taught me this framework, what am I feeling right now? What emotion am I feeling? And then once you identify it, ask yourself, why am I feeling this way? And a different way to ask that question is what's the story that I'm telling myself to feel this way.
So if the conclusion of this is doom and gloom, ask yourself, what emotion are you feeling? Why do you feel like it's doom and gloom? And usually, for me, at least this is my personal POV, it's one of two things. One it's internal. Something that I haven't made closure with and it's muddying up my perspective. And more often than not, for me, it's ego, not wanting to let go of an old version of myself. Or two, it's an external. And if it's external, you just dig deeper and ask more questions around the thing that's external, that's bothering you. And for me, usually the external somehow winds up back internal, and then you got to do that self work.

Chris:
Yes. You know what? Yesterday Lola had said something and she's our friend. And she said, "Chris, you were just an absolute savage tonight." And Mo and I joked about it afterwards because we did our post mortem call I guess today after we had some time to talk, actually we've talked a couple times since then. And what I think some people refer to as me being an absolute savage is just me trying to as clearly as possible lay out the facts stripped of emotion and subjective interpretation.
And sometimes that can be a hard thing to look at. And I think the reason why decisions are so hard for us to make is because we can't see objectively. I think all of us are looking at Heather like, Heather, how could you be splitting your time or some portion of your time to do something that barely pays you probably minimum wage to do what it is that you're doing?
And Heather keeps telling herself, it's the connections. I'm building something here. And she could be right. She could be planting seeds for something that's going to bear fruit that none of us can see. But from an objective data point of view, it's hard to make a case for why you would spend any more time volunteering for an organization, but that's where we're at. And so when I say, what is that doing for you? Some people interpret that as just being an absolute Savage. I'm painting a doom and gloom picture. I'm being pessimistic. I'm not. I'm trying to be as best as I can, a realist to strip away all this other emotion.
Sometimes I joke with my son. And my youngest son, his name is Mattias, and he likes to argue with me about all kinds of stuff. He's 15 years old and he has a horrible record of being right. So whenever we walk, we talk about some things like, "Dad, you're wrong about this?" I'm like, "Are you sure?" And then I'll say a couple things. He'll fact check. He goes, "You're right." I said, "Mattias, do you ever get tired of being wrong because you're going on a 100 and zero right now?" And you, he turns to me because he's got this irrepressible spirit and I love this about him. He goes, "Dad, hella need to be right one time."
I'm like, "I love your spirit, boy, keep doing it. But until that time happens, you're going to be wrong again." And that's how he is. And in his mind, he's going to find the one way to be right. And I think I've created the right mindset in him. He doesn't care.

Speaker 6:
Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

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Speaker 6:
Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris:
Heather, back to you. So the challenges and why you haven't been able to get there. We talked about you needing to charge more and finding different clients. I'm going to ask you now, if you don't mind disclosing, I think you've been very transparent thus far and if it gets uncomfortable for you just say pass, right? Now-

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
... What is the average size job that you get [crosstalk 00:33:48] dollar wise? What's that?

Heather:
Oh, dollar wise.

Chris:
Yeah.

Heather:
Oh, I'd say average job right now is running between five and 6,000.

Chris:
Okay. So let's just call it 5,500. Okay.

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
Okay, 5,500. Are you operating as an independent contractor or as an agency?

Heather:
Right now I'm operating as an independent contractor.

Chris:
Okay. So just in case, for clarity, what that means in my mind and correct me if I'm wrong is some other studio gets work and they farm some of that work out to you and you do it remotely under your own direction. You give it back to them and they give that to their client. Is that about right?

Heather:
It's correct.

Chris:
Okay. As long as you continue to work for another agency, whoever takes the risk, gets the most money. And I have this proximity rule. The person closest to the client makes all the money. The farther you are away from the client, the less you are to make, in proportion to the entire budget. You understand that concept?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Okay. So you could probably charge them $5,500. What do you imagine that they would charge the client?

Heather:
Double easily.

Chris:
Or way more than that. Way more than that. I'm going to ask you one more time. What do you think they're charging a client if you're charging $5,500?

Heather:
I don't know. I always assume it is at least double.

Chris:
It is at least double, but it's way more than double.

Heather:
I don't know.

Chris:
Okay. Just make a wild guess and I'll tell you how far off you might be.

Heather:
Okay. [crosstalk 00:35:11].

Chris:
Any you guess is fine.

Heather:
How about... let's see, so double. I would say it's more than double. I would say at least 65%.

Chris:
Which is what? Just throw out a number. [crosstalk 00:35:21] If they're paying you $5,500, what do they need to charge? What do you think?

Heather:
125.

Chris:
Okay that's a lot. Maybe not that much.

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
But I would say probably at least 50 K.

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
Okay. Because if I were hiring you and you're like, "Chris, I'm quoting you $5,500 for this." I'm going to go and ask for 50 K.

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
It's too much risk. What if you blow it? What if you miss your deadlines? What if I have to hire someone else? And I'm the one who's holding the client relationship and I will make that money. Now I want to tell you all this because just to put it in perspective again, there was a point in time, a large technology company came to us and said, "We need your help in developing an app for us." And they're a technology company, right? They want us to develop something, UX, UI, and build software for them.
So what Ben [Barnes 00:36:09] and I did was we called a very reputable software developer who has tons of experience and incredible portfolio. And they quoted us $250,000. So we're like, okay, we know how much it's going to cost. And we asked them if it goes sideways, are you comfortable with 250. Like 250, we could do this all day long. We have the team. We have the experience. Fantastic. Heather, what do you think we went back to this technology company and asked for? And mind you, they were going to do almost all the heavy lifting. [crosstalk 00:36:34] Okay?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
We're going to manage the client relationship. We might bring it a couple designers, but we're going to lean on the expertise of this software developer. What do you think we're going to ask... How much money you think we're going to ask for? Any guess is a good guess, by the way.

Heather:
450.

Chris:
$1 million.

Heather:
Whoa.

Chris:
That's how companies like us make money. A million dollars for what? We found the client, we found the developer, we're going to manage the risk and the relationship and we should be paid handsomely for it. And you know what? A million dollars was in their budget. Okay. So what is the difference between you and this company, this agency, that's charging 50K, 10 times as much as you? What is the difference between the two of you?

Heather:
I think the difference between us is that they have a staff that handles a lot of the minutia, they have larger overhead and they have the direct client relationship.

Chris:
Okay. You told me three things. Only one of those things is true. I'll give you guess as to which one's true.

Heather:
I'm going to guess, the direct to client relationship.

Chris:
That's the only one that matters. Do you think a client is honestly saying, well, since you have a big team and a overhead and all that kind of stuff, you deserve to charge more. You think that's what they're thinking?

Heather:
No.

Chris:
Do you think they're like, you can manage all the minutia and will pay you because you can handle the minutia?

Heather:
No.

Chris:
Right. So here's what they do. quite literally. Right. A client, you need something? Let us know. Okay. Yeah. Scope of work. I get it. I'll send you a bid. Oh, project was awarded. Thank you, Heather Crank, you have some free time to do this project? Oh, you do. Here's the direction. Can you do this by when? Okay, fantastic. How much? Oh, 5,500. Great. They cash that check. They gave you the money and you take a stab at it. They give you some direction. They take that and they give it to the client. Client's thrilled.
So the difference between you and the agency that's charging 10 times as much is they have a relationship with a client. What should Heather be doing with her free time if she's not volunteering to work for free?

Heather:
She should probably be looking for better relationships with bigger clients.

Chris:
To develop a direct relationship with the client, not through an intermediary, not through an agency. Each time the job gets handed off to another person, the budget gets smaller and smaller. Now you can say, this is the downfall of society and the greed of capitalism. Let's put that stuff aside. This is just how business works. Unless you can somehow cast a magic spell like Harry Potter and change the way the world works. This is how it works. Everyone in production makes the least amount of money, period, relative to the entire budget.
Now I'm going to open to this page here in this book, and I'm going to find something for you and it's going to shock you. Okay. I'm going to ask everybody this question and it's going to blow your mind. Give a few minutes to find this thing. But Heather, all you should be doing now in all of your free time and those "connections" that you've been building up for over the years is to build a direct relationship with the buyers of creative services, specifically, motion design.

Heather:
Uh-huh (affirmative) Okay.

Chris:
Does that make sense?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Okay. Do you know how to do that?

Heather:
I have a sense, I think, of how to do that. I mean, you're one of those connections, Chris.

Chris:
What do you mean?

Heather:
Because you came up to the conference. You're one of the people I connected with. I think I have a sense of how to do it because I've had to create those kind of connections with the conference.

Chris:
Yeah. Theoretically though, you said that it's valuable for you because of the connections that you're building. I assumed when you said that or presumed, that those connections worth are those people who buy creative services.

Heather:
Some are, yes.

Chris:
Right. And I'm not talking about people who buy as a broker, but the actual clients. People from Apple, Intel or Microsoft.

Heather:
Yeah.

Chris:
Right?

Heather:
Yeah. Yes.

Chris:
Okay. Those are the people that you need to talk to right now.

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
Do you know where they are?

Heather:
I have some of their emails, yes.

Chris:
Okay. I hope so. Because I believe a connection requires at minimum, a name and an email. Otherwise, you built jack. Maybe I'm sounding like doom and gloom again. Let me pull back my tone.

Heather:
[inaudible 00:41:02] It's true. This is true. I do have names and emails. This is true.

Chris:
Okay. All right. So I think you need to go at minimum to reach out to these people. Have you reached out to these people before?

Heather:
I have maintained a connection with them? Some of these people I actually really like. I have not reached out to them for work, but we are maintaining a connection.

Chris:
And why have you not reached out for work?

Heather:
I guess I didn't think of the relationship that way. And here we go again with what was the word? [inaudible 00:41:36].

Chris:
Yeah.

Heather:
I enjoy the people and I didn't see them as business context per se.

Chris:
Yeah. So it's kind of fascinating to me that you say that all this free work that you've been doing, volunteering to help, has been valuable because of these connections, one would presume, business connections. Because I don't need more friends right now. I have a lot of friends already. I have a few close friends and I have a bunch of friendly acquaintances. I don't need more of them right now.
So if you're going to trade your time and give up money, hopefully, those relationships equals money back to you.

Heather:
Right.

Chris:
So it's almost crazy to me that you haven't yet reached out to single one of them over all these years to say, you know what? I run an independent design animation studio. Is there by any chance that you would need something like this?

Heather:
Yes. This is a really good point. I think operating in the freelance mindset and always going through bigger agencies, it's like a shift for me to think about-

Chris:
Yeah.

Heather:
... probably to myself that way. It's just a different mindset.

Chris:
It is because you are still referring to yourself and of thinking of yourself as a freelance independent contractor versus an independent business owner who happens to only have one employee.

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Yes. Okay. You're starting to break up for some reason. I don't know if you're moving around the house or you're getting hit by a storm or something, but audio's not totally all together here. Okay.

Mo:
Is this the same Heather Crank from Clubhouse?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Yes, it is.

Mo:
Heather, you sound amazing by the way. Your energy is different than when I heard you on Clubhouse a year ago. You sound very... Yeah, you sound excited. You sound significantly happier. I was going to compliment you on your energy and then I heard him say Crank. And I was like, yo, is that Heather Crank? Because I remember the first time I heard you was on an introvert call. So I just want to give you your flowers. You sound wonderful. So I hope you're doing really well.

Heather:
Thank you. Thank you very much. I am. I'm working on the introvert issues.

Chris:
I think he's sensing something beyond introversion extroversion. That there's the lightness and effervescence in your kind of... the way that you're speaking. I know you've had a lot of recent success too and maybe that's contributing too. Who knows? Or maybe it's just your night owl and this is when you truly shine.

Heather:
Well, actually, what it is is I kind of had a breakthrough over the summer where I reclaimed some confidence and this idea that I had the right to exist and have my voice heard and be able to be out there in the world. And it was a really big shift for me and it changed... changed everything. Changed how I related to people and what I wanted and how I defined my roles. And even my willingness to be able to speak publicly right now is a big difference from where I was as you're sensing a year ago. So...

Mo:
Amen to that. I thought you were a different person when I heard you, until I heard the name Crank. So [crosstalk 00:44:42] it's showing and way to go. Just wanted to give you those flowers.

Heather:
Thank you.

Chris:
So Mo a to the men right there. All right. So Heather Crank.

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
I believe if you have 10 contacts, if you made 10 acts of outreach, some percentage of them will come back with a mild to lukewarm response and say maybe. And of the ones that say maybe, a couple of them will say yes. And if you look at your numbers, look at your numbers one second. Earlier, in case you're just joining us, Heather said she would like to make $100,000 this year. And we have established that typically speaking, motion design projects that she's working on for $5,500, there's a very high likelihood that the agency, the studio, that's doing this work for a client, it's probably charging 50K. So if you can just cut the middle man out and have a direct relationship with the client, the buyers of creative services, that in two projects, you'll hit your number. Isn't it worth trying?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
So what I don't get you going to have to help me, Nidhi help me here too, why you haven't done this before? I can't figure it out, Heather.

Heather:
There we're going to get into a whole nother thing. I think the reason I haven't done up to this point is there's a worthiness issue, confidence issue. Some of those two things I had gone on previously in my career, and I had to resolve those things to be able to feel like, okay, I can do this. I'm worth this. I'm valuable. My work is good. And that the opinions for the past don't matter. So now I'm at this point, I can do it.

Chris:
Okay.

Mo:
Chris, real quick. I'm going to jump in here before I forget Anxh Hammer, A-N-X-H, DME, said that he would like to connect with Heather based on where he is employed. So I'm just going to say that out loud that Heather, Anxh wants to connect. He has open permission for you to connect with him. So there's one connection. Now there's nine to go.

Chris:
Oh my God. I love that Mo called that out. And I love that we're making connections happen potentially tonight. And I don't say that of the 10 connections, she's now got nine to go. I say of the 11 connections, she just made a new one today. She still has 10 to go. I'm not taking one off the board. I'm going to add one. Okay, everybody. 11. We just increased our odds. We didn't decrease it. We increased it. Okay.

Heather:
11 is a better number.

Chris:
It is. It's a prime number. Let's go with that.

Heather:
Yeah.

Chris:
Okay.

Heather:
It's a good number.

Chris:
It's a very good number. And here's the thing that I love about social audio apps, whether you're on Clubhouse, Twitter spaces, Fireside, wherever you're at, is that you get to actually get to learn about who someone is really quickly, because it's kind of hard to hide. There's as far as I know, no filter to change the words out of your mouth. Whereas I know on social media, it there's filters to change the way you look. And it's very revealing. And the rate of accelerated relationships dramatically increases on apps like this. So thank you very much Anxh.
Now I'm going to go back to something here. I think the biggest pivot is you have to stop thinking of yourself as a freelancer and put on your independent business owner hat. This is why I do not like the way the word freelancer is used when you're really not a freelancer. When you think of yourself as a freelancer, you behave consistent to your thought. And the results that you get from those actions are then congruent. I'm a freelancer. Freelancers don't work with clients, freelancers work with agencies. Therefore, freelancers can only charge so much money. And you're right, because they need to make the money, they're taking the risk.
And then you get stuck in this place where like, why can't I crack $100,000? Change the belief. You're no longer a freelancer. You're a business owner and you're going to run a company. You're going to run your own agency and hire people to help you make this work. So therefore you have to charge what other agencies charge. Otherwise, people will become suspicious that you're not as good. And then you'll make that money. And those are the results that you get. So to me, it's just a belief thing. We need to change that narrative, that inner dialogue. Nidhi you had your hand up.

Nidhi:
Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, that's so exciting that you got to make this connection, heather. I'm super stoked for you. And something that came to mind too, as you were speaking was, when you said... I was kind of struck by the moment where you said that you hadn't really thought about leveraging these connections that you had developed. It kind of struck a code for me because I think sometimes when you're the giver to other people, I know that this is something many people struggle with, we don't necessarily view relationships in that manner or we feel guilty when we ask for things as though somehow we're leveraging the relationship or... that somehow it makes it less of a genuine relationship with somebody.
And so I think there's maybe a little bit of a mindset around that as well and in knowing that people are connected to you because they appreciate you and they obviously value what you do and what you bring to the table. And what I've discovered, especially as I'm getting into speaking industry thing, is that I'm starting to try, for the first time in this pathway I'm taking, work with some of the people that I've built relationships with. People like Chris, people like my friend, Denise, people like Alex Carter. So these are individuals who I consider to be friends. But as friends, we all want to support one another. So I want to show up and support all of my friends in whatever way possible, but that also works in the reverse. But they don't know how to support you if you never reach out to ask them for those things.
So I just wanted to put that out there in case that was so that was contributing to the situation, the fear of how it would be interpreted or whether you would be viewed as somebody who is a means to an end person. But I think people sniff that out and they know when you're genuine and they want to genuinely then help you. So that was my thought.

Chris:
Wonderful. Thank you so much. I tease something, that I want to ask all of you this question. I think this concept and the research is going to blow your mind. Now I forget to say this and I'm not always the best at promoting the things that are important to me. And I'm not doing this room to sell you something. But if you find value in this room and you've been asking questions like, who these people up on stage? Every single one of the people who've been speaking with exception of Neil, who's on here, they're part of my pro community. We met as strangers at one point on the internet. They decided to take the plunge and join me on the other side where the recordings of these kinds of conversations were saved and shared. And I'd love for you to join us.
So if you want, just DM me or just mention, I want to join the future pro group. I'll give you some information. Enrollment is open, just let me know. And that's the end of my plug.
Now the concept I want to share with you is something from the book, Implementing Value Pricing written by Ronald J. Baker, who I'm having on the show next week. In the book, this is a page 68 here, there's something called the Stan Shih Smile Curve and it shows you where value is in the production chain. Okay? Now Apple's very successful iPod and iPhone are manufactured overseas. It says, designed in California, but we know it's made in China overseas, at least. And here's the question for you. So Apple is mostly responsible for R&D branding and design and then use. And is estimated that to make an iPhone, it costs $400... Oh, I'm sorry, the price of an iPhone, I guess in this book, in the model that they're reviewing, is $400. Right.
How much money do you think went to China for manufacturing? Of the $400, what do you think it is? This is a rhetorical question. I want you just think about that for a second. How much do you think went for parts? The parts were made in Japan. And the remainder goes to apple. So of the $400, Nidhi, Heather, Mo, how much do you think went to manufacturing to China? Of the $400, what do you think, Nidhi?

Nidhi:
I have a feeling is super low. I'm going to say $50.

Chris:
That's a very good guess, by the way, Heather-

Nidhi:
Is it-

Chris:
Yeah. Hold that thought, okay. $50. We're now entering into the prices rate. Heather Crank, if you are closest to this, you win my respect. Right. Of the $400, how much goes to China for manufacturing?

Heather:
Ooh, I'm going to guess, $29.

Chris:
Oh, she's going lower. And Mo if you already know the answer, don't say anything. Do you know the answer, Mo?

Mo:
No.

Chris:
Okay. So you all can play the game. Mo, how much went to China for manufacturing?

Mo:
I was going to say between 10 to 20%.

Chris:
You only get to say one number.

Mo:
$60, 15%.

Chris:
So he going higher. Strategically, he's above Nidhi. So Heather Crank is at $29. Nidhi is at 50. Mo's going 60. So it sucks to go first. Huh? Nidhi? Those-

Nidhi:
A little bit, a little.

Chris:
... those rats. Yeah. Mo wasn't that smart. He should have said $51. So he'd give you no chance if it was higher. Okay. Here goes. It is estimated out of the $400 that apple charges, a mere $5 goes to manufacturing in China.

Nidhi:
Oh no.

Chris:
Five whopping dollars. You're all wrong. $45 goes to parts from Japan. Apple keeps $350. So you remember before, Heather, when I said, how much do you think the agency is charging relative to what you're charging? You are way off the rail. Okay. The Stan Shih Smile Curve goes something like this. There's an arc, right? So there's production chain. So I'm going to read to you the production chain. And then I'm going to ask you another question. Okay. I'm going to read this in some kind of random order. Okay. Sales and after service, distribution, design, marketing concept R$D, branding and manufacturing. Of those categories of the seven things that are read, what do you think gets paid the least? What do you think, Nidhi.

Nidhi:
I'm sorry, what was the question? I just passed a thousand followers. So I was like...

Chris:
You never focus. You remember that word focus, Nidhi? All right. I'll read this again. In the production chain. Okay. Where's the value? Is it in concept and R&D? Is it in branding? Is it in design? Is it in manufacturing? Is it in distribution, marketing or sales and after service? What is the least valuable thing in the production chain.

Nidhi:
I mean, the least valuable thing... Is it manufacturing? I'm thinking manufacturing.

Chris:
You're thinking manufacturing. What do you think is the most valuable thing?

Nidhi:
The branding.

Chris:
Oh, good guess. Okay. So here's what I want you to do, everybody. I want you to draw a smile. Okay. And I'm going to read it from the left to the right, from the highest to the bottom of the smile, to the other side, the other highest point. And I'm going to tell you what this economist had discovered. Okay. I don't know how many things he studied to produce this report, but here it goes, here's a smile curve and it'll blow your mind. Okay. In the production chain here. Okay.
Concept and R&D is the most valuable thing on the left hand side. Coming down from that a little bit is branding. Beneath that, design. At the very bottom, manufacturing. Coming up on the other side is distribution, and then marketing, and then sales and after service/ the money is in the concept an R&D and in sales and after service.
What about in other things like for IT firms? All right. Same smile curve, determining the value to solve, the scope development. At the bottom, implementation. Going up the other side, increasing in value, go live and ongoing support. Let's look at it for advertising agencies. At the top of the value curve, and it's going to make my friend [Hanley 00:57:24] Hansen very happy here, is diagnosing the problem. It drops off pretty quickly to prescribing the solution. Guess what's at the bottom of the value chain at an ad agency, creating the work. Oh, I'm sorry. The creative, I'm sorry, not creating the work. Creative. Going up from that is execution. And then analytics and measurement.
When I shared this with my friend, he was like, "Oh my God, all our lives we're in the manufacturing and implementation part of the smile curve." And that should be a wake up call for all of you. You know what? I want to live up to the doom and gloom reputation. I'm going to wrap the call right now and just hang on everybody.

Nidhi:
I was like, is this the doom and gloom part?

Chris:
This is the wake up and smell the coffee. So all of you that are in the implementation and manufacturing part, wherever the value is, you're at the bottom of it. That's why I put out there. Do not charge for the making of the thing. Charge for the thinking. The making is the afterthought. You're paying for the clarity. You're not paying for me to make it. That's the souvenir. But so many of us get this thing wrong. On another day, we'll have a deeper conversation about how you can change your relationship in the value chain even if you're at the bottom right now, in the manufacturing part.
Now this book is not written for designers. It's not written for creative people. It's actually written by someone who is a CPA. Who's an economist, who's an extremely smart person. So all the things he cites in his book are just mind blowing because they're from studies about economic theory, not about design and creative theory. And all you have to do is like, where do I live in this? And you see you're at the bottom or near bottom. That should be a wake up call.
So Heather Crank, you have an 11th connection here. I need you to reach out to these people. So here's what we do. Every time we have a goal, we need to tie it to a time. How long will it take you to reach out to these 10 people that you have on your address book?

Heather:
Let's say four weeks.

Chris:
By next week, you'll reach out to all these people, right? Did I hear you say that?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Okay. Because this conversation needs to keep moving on... As far as I know you and I were both not getting any younger and it takes time. And here's one thing I've learned in my life. When you're ready to do the work, people are not ready to hire you. So you need to work on their timetable. So if you were to reach out to these 10 people, because once you figure out how to talk to one, you know how to talk to all of them.
That they could have already been planning a project right now and by the time you reach out to them in four weeks, you've already missed that boat. Let's talk to them now. There's no reason why you can't start planting the seeds that Heather Incorporated is open for business. And I'm ready to take work. For one of these projects, you could replace 10 of your previous projects.

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
That should be plenty of motivation for you to do this.

Heather:
Yes it is.

Chris:
Okay. Do you know what you're doing when it comes to motion design?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
Are you good?

Heather:
Yes.

Chris:
So you have no reason not to do this?

Heather:
I'm on it.

Chris:
Do you have experience?

Heather:
Oh my God, yes.

Chris:
So tonight I want you to ask your dream self this question. Okay. So we all have questions asked of subconscious mind. I want you to ask yourself this question. Why the hell have I waited so long to do this? And tell me what you come up with. Okay?

Heather:
Okay.

Chris:
I will say this thing. I don't give my opinion to people I don't care about. People show me their logo. People tell me their business model. People ask me to sit on the board. I say, no, almost 100% of the time. And what people think like, you are just being an absolute savage and animal. You're wrecking people. You're spanking baby Mo daddy Do. You're spanking them so hard. The only reason why I do this, the only reason why I would tell him my truth, not the truth, just my truth, is because I care about him.
Yesterday. He said, "So this is what you want me to do?" I said, "I don't want you to do anything. All I want to do is help you see the options and you need to do what's right for you. I have 0% of your company. I'm not making any royalty in anything you do. So you just do right. You win, I'm happy for you. You lose, I'm sad for you. Either way, you need to do what's right for you."
I have this idea. I have this idea. If you truly love someone, you have to do what's hard, not what's easy. The parent that gives their child candy all the time because they're cranky and this is how they appease them is, in my opinion, not a good parent. The child who sees their parent chain smoking, knowing that this is going to shorten their life, who does nothing because it gives them joy to have a smoke, to me, it's not being a good child. It's that you have to be brave enough to be able to speak truth to this person and potentially get into some friction. That's the hard work. That's the love. Everything else is something else. And on that note, Mo, I'm going to end today's call, play us a little music. I'm going to get us out of here. Thank you very much, everyone.

Speaker 6:
Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Christ Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam [Sanborn 01:03:07] for our intro music.
If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reading and reviewing our show on Apple podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me, head over to the futur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit the futur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products and a bunch of helpful resources about design and a creative business. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you next time.

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