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Chris Do

If you were to order an expensive meal at a nice restaurant, but then asked if they could knock 50% off of the price, how would your waiter respond? So then why do people in the creative business bend to such requests from clients?

The Art of Sales and Negotiation
The Art of Sales and Negotiation

The Art of Sales and Negotiation

Ep
164
Nov
24
With
Chris Do
Or Listen On:

Can you do it for less?

If you were to order an expensive meal at a nice restaurant, but then asked if they could knock 50% off of the price, how would your waiter respond?

Probably not well. Of all the possible replies, the most likely one would be, “I’m sorry, we can’t do that.” Which is not surprising.

So then why do people in the creative business bend to such requests from clients?

In this fun Clubhouse talk, Chris helps people with their pricing and negotiation troubles by roleplaying scenarios with them. When do you push? When do you pull? And what do you listen for?

Following a pre-written sales script is easy, but when conversational curveballs are thrown at you, they fall apart. Hear how Chris approaches these delicate discussions and learn why being in the moment and listening is all you need.

Hosted By
special guest
produced by
edited by
music by
Appearances

Episode Transcript

Chris:

That's the big mistake that people make that they have some sorcery, some kind of magical silver tongue that they can say the right combination of words and make someone who's not interested interested. So we have this illusion that when somebody seems like they're not interested, they actually are. And I'm just trying to figure out, are you a yes, a no, or a maybe? And I'm not hearing enough be in here for me to continue to work on this.
Okay. I'm going to do really, really quick introductions here and then going to get into the top. I'm going to talk about this. Just freestyling this top of my head. So first up is Drigo. Drigo is based out of Florida. He makes video content and he also produces things on YouTube. If you guys need help with him in terms of creating videos, he's your guy. And then after him is Mo Ismail. Mo helps authors, influencers and people who make really cool stuff take their long form content, chop it into really cool little bite size pieces to distribute on social media. If you need help with, that talk to Mo.
And last but not least today, Annalee, who I believe it's ten o'clock in Sweden right now. And she's brand strategist. This is what she's done for decade plus. And if you need help with coaching and learning more about that, she runs workshops. She does one-on-one coaching. Reach out to her and just be sure to follow my fellow mods up here.
This call, once again, is being recorded. I am recording the voice, obviously. That's all we got here. We're recording the voice. If you do not want to be recorded, I respect your right to privacy. Just say before you get on stage, "I don't want to be recorded." I'll turn it off or I'll let the team know to edit you out. Okay. Excellent. Mo, since this was something that was driven by you and maybe something you saw on Twitter, why don't you kick us off? What are we talking about?

Mo Ismail:

Yeah, this is something that I saw on Twitter that I think is a good learning curve for many people. We hear you do role plays, especially in sales. And I've called it you make sales sexy. And you have a really amazing ability to go past what's just said, and really understand the why behind why someone is saying what they're saying. So in a call with [Kia 00:02:21], you and Drigo, I believe you brought up think things through and be more critical. And then someone on Twitter said, "Well, how do I develop that skill?"
So my assumption, and this is something that I'm trying to practice on my own as well is what does someone need to look for when they're listening? What does someone need to look for when they're in an interaction or when something happens or when they're just consuming something for them to think it through in a critical fashion and really get into the nitty gritty to be able to take it from there, whether it be in conversation or in their own learning? And I know that's a lot. But since it's role play, really in the interaction phase of things.

Chris:

Okay. I'm going to let you guys know this is going to be a little roller coaster ride. It's going to get hot. It's going to get a little spicy. So if you need a little kick me up a little heat on your Sunday sandwich or whatever, this is going to be it. We're going to get into it, because I think learning happens in the messy parts. There's this academic learning that's really intellectual like follow A, B, C, D and E, and that's one way of learning. But I really think we can learn by doing so.
In that spirit, Mo, first of all, thank you for setting up really beautifully. I'm going to invite a couple of people to come on stage. Mods, invite whoever you want to come up on stage. And I want you to just ask me a question. I'm going to demonstrate to you how to dissect and pick apart, a question and what notes I'm literally to, and how I'm going to respond. I'm going to do it. And I'm going to go into the meta layers and explain exactly what's happening. And hopefully, you guys can understand and then ask more questions about what is that that's happening so that you can do this as well.
And I do want to preface it by saying this, learning how to listen and to ask the right kinds of questions is the beginning stages if you want to think more critically and be more strategic. This is the beginning. So what you consider is the foundational level. This is thinking critically 101. And we're going to go to like maybe 401 by the time we're done here. So, I hope I've given enough time for people to formulate an idea or a question. And if we don't have a good question to respond to, then I will then open it up to my mods to ask a question that they need help with in their life and I'll show you how it's done.
All right. Here's what we want you to do. We want you to get up on stage, tell us a zero back story and please do not give us any kind of sales pitch. If you do, my mods will mute you and then bounce you out of the room and you'll see me get super cranky. And why do I do this? Because I believe a society is governed by the agreed to rules. Since this is the society of what we're doing here, I'm going to say, please do not pitch. That's for another room. Okay? Ask your question. Just go straight to my question. And that's all we want you to do.
And what you want to do is before you get up on stage, especially if you're waiting in the queue, think about your question as clearly as possible. Because we know this, a properly framed question is 50% of the answer. And that's why it's difficult for you sometimes when you're thinking through your own problem, like the answer is not obvious. Man, I can't figure it out. It's because you haven't been able to form the question yet. Okay.
I want to just give a quick mention and shout out to Blueprint Practice for tweeting like, "Loving this room." And if you guys can do that, this room will grow. So if you want to share it on Twitter, on Instagram, on LinkedIn and anywhere else on Facebook about what's happening in this room, I believe, and I could let you down here, that this is going to be a really high value conversation to level up your game. So let some people know. Bring them into the room. You can ping them, do whatever you need to do. Make some noise. Okay. That hopefully was enough time. Now we can get into it.

Mo Ismail:

All right. First up we have Emily. Emily, what is your question?

Emily:

Hi everyone. My question is following up on the last room that I was in when Chris and Mo were talking. And Chris mentioned about don't defend yourself during a negotiation with someone you're doing a deal with. And so I want to ask a question specifically more about that. Because if you're trying to introduce what you do to someone and they want to know how good you are, you need to tell them.
So I had a situation like that where I was quoting something to someone just this past week. And they're like, "Well, I got a quote from ..." And actually, she wants me to play my violin at her wedding. Okay. So she said, "I spoke with other musicians and I got other quotes and this is what they told me and so forth. So what do you say to that?" And when she asked me that question, I thought of the conversation here on Clubhouse about not defending yourself. So I would love to know how Chris would respond-

Chris:

Love it. Let's do it.

Emily:

... to that situation.

Chris:

You ready?

Emily:

Thank you. Yeah.

Chris:

Okay. Emily says, "Stay online with me here." I'm going to warn everybody. Here we go. Crack your knuckles, fasten your seat belts. If you like this kind of stuff, go get some popcorn. We're going to get right into it.

Emily:

[inaudible 00:07:02].

Chris:

Okay. What'd you say, Emily.

Emily:

Go, Emily. Go, Emily.

Chris:

Here we go. Okay. So Emily, I just need to know a few pieces of information. And ideally, we could have gotten to this point a little bit faster, but it's a good first step. Okay? I just need to know the parameters here. What are you selling? How much is it for and what do they want it for?

Emily:

Okay. So I'm selling my violin plane for a wedding

Chris:

Violin. Okay. So you're a musician?

Emily:

Yes.

Chris:

Okay. Let me lead the dance because it'll take too long. Okay? I want to try to get as many people in here to have as many learning opportunities as possible. How much you charge play violin?

Emily:

For the first hour, $500 for a wedding.

Chris:

Okay. Is that what you were offering to this person?

Emily:

Not initially because she changed what she wanted. Initially, I offered her about 350 based on what she told me. But her request kept changing. So I opted to 500 because she wanted because she wanted-

Chris:

Okay. For the hour. How much beyond the first hour? I just need to know the technical stuff so I can get through this.

Emily:

Okay. 250 for the second hour.

Chris:

Okay. And is there a cap like, "I don't go beyond a certain number of hours"?

Emily:

Well, it would be usually about two max.

Chris:

Okay. Two hours max. That's good to know. Okay. Is there anything else I need to know for the role play? So I can do this in the spirit of which you're doing?

Emily:

Well, I would like to add that she wanted, she said, "After you play, you're welcome to be a guest. You can have dinner. You can be a part of the wedding," just trying to incorporate me into her festivities. So she's been very nice about everything like that. But then when she compared what I quoted her to what other musicians were quoting her, that's when it's like wasn't quite sure.

Chris:

Yeah, we'll get into that in the role play part. I just need to know is there anything else I need to know about you, concessions you're willing to make so that I can do this as accurately as possible?

Emily:

Okay. Well, I'm willing to be open to their budget to some degree if that makes sense.

Chris:

What's the-

Emily:

So yeah, I'm flexible, not hard.

Chris:

Okay. What's the bottom line that you would be willing to take

Emily:

400.

Chris:

Okay. That's all I need to know. You ready?

Emily:

Yes.

Chris:

Okay. Here's what we're going to do. What would you like to call me? Do you want to call me Emily? You want to call me Chris? What do you want to call me?

Emily:

Chris.

Chris:

Okay.

Emily:

Chris.

Chris:

And what should I call you? Don't use anybody's real name by the way. Please don't do that. Do you want to be Emily or do you want to be someone else?

Emily:

So you mean in the role play between the client as if I were and [inaudible 00:09:23]. Is that what you mean?

Chris:

Yes, you're the client. Right.

Emily:

Okay. I'll be the violinist and you'll be the client. How about that?

Chris:

Somebody help me. Mo, tell me here.

Emily:

No, you do it, Chris. I'm not sure. You tell me.

Mo Ismail:

Emily will play the client. Chris will play you so you can see how it feels different from how you would do it.

Speaker 1:

And be tough on him.

Emily:

Perfect.

Speaker 1:

Be tough on him. Make him cry.

Emily:

I'll be the client.

Chris:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mo Ismail:

Things that make you nervous or make you freeze during that interaction, bring that to life here so you can experience how he would handle it.

Chris:

The reason why I cannot play the client is I'm not in the business of having weddings or hiring musicians. And so, I really don't even know what the client's thinking. So ideally, we would have two musicians who sell the services for weddings. That way, they can play and then I can comment. But in a case like this, this is a very foreign situation. Okay? That's why you have to play the client because you talk to them all the time.
Now, we're going to get into like full method acting here. I'm going to ask you to think and channel this very person. I think you mentioned it was a lady, whoever it was. I need you to be her for a second. I need you to forget that it's you and you to be her. And I want you to act in a realistic manner not like some fictional because it's not going to help you ultimately. Okay?

Emily:

Yes.

Chris:

So, okay. We're almost there now. Now, I'm going to play you. And for full disclosure, I can't play a single instrument. I know nothing about the violin music playing life performance business at all. But the reason why I state that is I may crash and burn, or I may be able to solve this and then you'll see that, "My gosh, the strategies seem to work for just about any profession." So let's go. Okay. So are we talking on the phone or are we in face-to-face here?

Emily:

On the phone.

Chris:

Okay.

Emily:

I do on Zoom call. It was face-to-face via Zoom.

Chris:

Okay. We're zooming. Zoom, Zoom, Zoom. Here we go. Okay. Ring, ring. Hey. Hey, Emily. Thank you for reaching out. I just want to make sure that I can help you with what it is you're looking for.

Emily:

Yes. Well, thank you, Chris. I've been planning this wedding for a while.

Chris:

Wonderful.

Emily:

I started planning it in 2020. And you know, with COVID I had-

Chris:

Oh my gosh.

Emily:

... to change the dates several times. This is like the third time I'm changing the date. So I hope you're still available.

Chris:

Yes. Okay. So let's talk about this. So I'm pretty sure you need to, because I've been a musician for some time. There's just two things we need to work out, availability and price. Right? So assuming that we're available when you want, which I'm looking at my calendar now, it seems like we are. I just need to know if you can afford the $500 that I charge for the first hour. And every hour after that is $250 an hour for two-hour maximum. Is that something you can afford?

Emily:

Well, that's a bit over the budget that I had planned.

Chris:

Okay.

Emily:

Plus I'm also hiring a band. I have a full Latin band. They're going to be playing. And I'm only paying them 850 for playing for four hours.

Chris:

Okay. So maybe you don't need a violinist. Isn't just having a Latin band for four hours enough?

Emily:

Well, they're going to play at my reception. But I need a violinist to play Here Comes the Bride and to play my recessional and to play my cocktail hour.

Chris:

I see. So, why talk to me then? I mean, you could hire anybody you want.

Emily:

Well, you are recommended. You came recommended by one of the people in my band, in the band that's going to play.

Chris:

Oh, that's awesome. Who recommended us? I want to make sure I thank him later.

Emily:

Yes. Senior Rodriguez.

Chris:

Senior Rodriguez. I love Senior Rodriguez. Okay. So it sounds like we're at an impasse here where I have my rate. This is really what I charge and otherwise I just ... It's really cutting up my day. I'm going to go to your wedding. I'm going to play music. And then that's pretty much all I can do. And that's just my rate.

Emily:

Well, you know, I've spoken to other musicians. Actually, I spoke to a husband and wife team. They both play the violin and they were only charging 350.

Chris:

Okay. Again, that sounds like a bargain to me because I can't do it for 350. And if it's going to suit your needs, just hire them.

Emily:

Okay.

Chris:

Okay. I hear some reservation there. What's wrong?

Emily:

Well, you were recommended to me.

Chris:

By Senior Rodriguez.

Emily:

By Senior Rodriguez.

Chris:

Yeah. I'm hoping he recommended me because I think I'm really good. And in order for me to play, I have to charge you what I'm going to charge you. I understand this more than your budget, and I understand it might not work out for us and that's why I don't want to waste a lot of your time. I mean, do you want me to recommend other people?

Emily:

Well, I don't really need you to recommend other people since I do have other people I could reach out to. But I just would like to know is there some way something we could do to make it work and make it worth your time?

Chris:

What do you mean?

Emily:

Well, in light of this budget that I have, my budgetary constraints, I'm just hoping that maybe we could come to some agreement.

Chris:

I'm hoping so too. But I can't do for 350. What can you afford?

Emily:

Well, what I can afford may be different than the budget. That's me slightly out of character. But anyway. Afford, I could afford to pay more. I just have a budget to pay less.

Chris:

Oh, Emily, maybe it's like too early in the morning. Like I couldn't even understand that. That's an advanced level conversation that I just don't even know. You know, I just play a violin. So what you can afford and your budget is two different things.

Emily:

I know. I know. I know. I really don't know what to say at that point because if someone were to ask me that I-

Mo Ismail:

Same character. Same character.

Emily:

Okay. Sorry guys. Okay. All right. So clients, well, my wedding is really important to me and I want it to be extra special. This is like my second wedding. And this time around, it's just about having a fun time. I want my guests have a good time. So I just wanted to diversify it a bit and stay within certain budgetary constraints because I have other things I'm planning for the day and just had budgeted out this for the violin. So what would be the least you'd be willing to do this for?

Chris:

The least I'd be willing to do this for is 500. If I look at it here, you mentioned 350 a couple of times, right? And if you're only going to work with me for an hour ... First of all, if you book the second hour drops 250. So we're talking about a total of $750 for two hours. You may not need two hours, but if you divide 750 by two, that number's less, or it's a little bit more than 350. So I'm actually really close within your zone of budget or what you can afford there. Does that work for you?

Emily:

I really have to think about it.

Chris:

Okay. That's fair. So you think you only need like maybe one hour instead? Not two?

Emily:

Well, I was really hoping you would do that cocktail party also, which is like hour after we get married and then you just play in your garden.

Chris:

Perfect. So we're on the same in page then really because if you book me for two hours, that's $750. And you said you can afford 350 for the hour, isn't that just times two. That's $700. So we're only $50 away. Is that right or no?

Emily:

Well, I guess I have to adjust my thinking because now that I realize what it takes to work with you, I have to adjust accordingly because-

Chris:

I see. Yes, I respect that.

Emily:

For a good reason.

Chris:

Right. You have a finite budget. And it's a big important day. It's your second wedding. I hear that. And you want to have fun this time and this is probably the last time you're going to get married, so we want to make this right. So here's the thing. I'm not telling you I'm super special. I think I'm pretty good, but you don't need to take my word for it. I think there are many comparable violinists that you can book for your budget, and I'm sure they'll do a competent job. I like to think I bring something a little extra special to this and many years of training in doing this. And if you think so, I'd love to do this with you. But it is going to be $500 for the first hour and 250 for the second. I might have a little wiggle room here, but it seems like we're pretty far apart.

Emily:

Okay.

Chris:

What do you think?

Emily:

Well, yeah, I think it's reasonable what you're saying. And I literally have to just go back. I have to speak to my fiance.

Chris:

Of course.

Emily:

Even though I'm the one making the decision. But you never know. You may have some perspective. But this has been my dream and I'd love to do it this way. But I have to recalibrate my budget. So maybe to just go back and look again.

Chris:

That sounds very fair. Now, we have penciled in roughly date and I just want to let you know this is not a threat. I do get booked up pretty quickly. So let me know as soon as you know, okay? Because it would be a shame for you then come back and say let's do this and then I'm not available. Because right now I'm going to leave that window open. Meaning if somebody else wants to book me, I'm going to take it since you still have to think about it. Is that okay with you?

Emily:

That is fine. Do you require a deposit and if so, how much?

Chris:

I do. I require 50% deposit. We lock in the date. It's nonrefundable, but I will not ghost on you. I will be there. I'll be ready to do exactly what you need for that night.

Emily:

All right.

Chris:

Okay.

Emily:

Well, I'll get back to you by tomorrow.

Chris:

Sounds good.

Emily:

But I appreciate your lining out all the parameters for me to consider.

Chris:

Beautiful. So when should I expect to hear from you either one way or the other? What time?

Emily:

Well, tomorrow evening probably by 6:00 PM you'll hear from me.

Chris:

Okay. So if I don't hear from you by 7:00 PM, I'm going to release this date and I'm going to just take whatever I'm going to get. Is that okay?

Emily:

Well, I'll only send a deposit once I agree that I want you.

Chris:

Right. Right. I'm just saying that if I don't hear from you tomorrow by 7:00 PM, I'm going to assume you've decided differently.

Emily:

Okay.

Chris:

Yeah. That's what I'm meant to say.

Emily:

Yes.

Chris:

Okay. Are we good?

Emily:

Yeah, we're good.

Chris:

Okay. I just want to say this. I want to say congratulations on your second marriage for finding your true love. No matter what happens from here on, okay? Be well.

Emily:

Thank you.

Chris:

You're welcome.

Emily:

Appreciate it.

Chris:

Okay. Hang up phone. Done. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Let's have a discussion about this and break this sucker apart. Let's look into this [inaudible 00:19:45] if we will. Okay. So, how did you feel, Emily, as a client in terms of the emotional how it resonated with you?

Emily:

Well, I like how you ... The same like before. This confidence that you exude. Like you're not desperate for the job. You appreciate and acknowledge the constraints. But at the same time, you know what you need to get for what you bring. And I like that it's done in a very matter of fact way. Yeah. That's the first thing.

Chris:

Okay. So did you ever feel threatened, pressured or made feel less than or anything like that?

Emily:

No, not at all.

Chris:

Okay. That's good.

Emily:

Not at all. But I will say, though, I won't call this pressure, but definite parameters are placed.

Chris:

Yes.

Emily:

So it's not like this loosey goosey thing. It's like, "Okay, you're going to decide by this time tomorrow, whatever. You're going to narrow it down."

Chris:

Right. And so when I narrow you down and let you know what the cost of inaction or indecision is, how does that make you feel?

Emily:

Well, it gives me a sense of urgency.

Chris:

Okay. That's good.

Emily:

And it makes me know that I actually may miss out on the person who I really want to do this. After all, this is a wedding. So it's a memory that you want to have.

Chris:

Right. Right. Hopefully, just once in a lifetime, you think, right?

Emily:

Ideally.

Chris:

Ideally. Yes. And so here's the thing, most people make this mistake that by being clear about what the parameters are, they're actually forcing the situation happen. No, you're giving the other person information to make a decision. My main objective on this call is to inspire you to make a decision. Book me. Release me. Hire someone else. Hire no one. I just need to give you information. So I just look at it like you just need to know. These are the rates. This is how it work. And these are the dates. And if you sit on them for too long, my default is going to be this is not happening.

Emily:

Right. I did notice though, you didn't get any concession with the price.

Chris:

No, I didn't. Because you know why?

Emily:

Tell me.

Chris:

You weren't willing to meet me.

Emily:

I was not willing to meet you?

Chris:

Yeah. Well, see, you said 350. I said 500. And you said, "What's your price?" I said 500. If you said, "Chris, if you can work with me, if you open the door, I will work with you." And I even asked you, "Okay, so we're about $50 apart if you book me for the two hours." And if you're like, "You know, you're right. Can you make the 50 hours work?" I would've worked with you. I'm not going to volunteer to bring the price down just because you asked.

Emily:

Okay. So here's the thing, because I'm thinking when I said, "All right, what is the least you're willing to do this for?"

Chris:

Right. And I said-

Emily:

[inaudible 00:22:24].

Chris:

Right, because that's your first question. Okay. If you think about sales and negotiation, which is where we're heading into this conversation, everybody's going to ask you like, "What's your bottom line? What's your best price?" They're always going to say that as a default. And I'm going to come back with, "I told you my first price." And I'll tell you why. Here's the psychology behind this. Okay? Check this out.
I'm going to play both parts here. So yeah, Emily, it's going to be 500 bucks. And then Emily fires back. "So Chris, what's the least you can do this for?" I'm like, "400." What does Emily think? You just try to screw me over. Without real provocation, without real rationalization, without rapport being built, you just change your price like that. And then what am I supposed to think? You try to just rip me off.
That, unfortunately, is the default response to something like this. If you're not sure, the next time this happens you try to become aware of your feeling about this. Someone who stands firm on their price, you know they're not monkeying around here. Plumber arrives at your door on a stated price on their website or their flyer, they're not going to sit there and change the price just because you asked. Okay?

Mo Ismail:

Can I jump in here?

Chris:

Yeah, please.

Mo Ismail:

I have a question about this. Okay. So there seems to be two avenues here. You were waiting for her to initiate working with you versus you just volunteering lowering the price.

Chris:

No, no. That's not it. She literally asked me to lower my price. But she hasn't given me a compelling reason besides lower your price.

Mo Ismail:

Okay. Okay. I'm personally confused. So why does it not look like you are screwing them over after she's giving you a compelling reason versus just lowering the price initially?

Chris:

Well, absent a compelling reason, I just arbitrarily changed my price for no reason whatsoever. She didn't give me a single reason. I said, "This is my budget." She hasn't given me much to work with. I was waiting for. I really was going to lower the price but she didn't give me a reason. And I can't do that without her feeling, "You know, this guy's a scumbag."

Mo Ismail:

For us to identify what is a compelling reason? What would make up a compelling reason?

Chris:

Okay. Well, rather than tell you, I will show you for the next role play-

Mo Ismail:

Love it.

Chris:

... that we do this. Maybe somebody will stay in on the line with me and try to do the dance. I just felt like, okay, in my mind you know what I was thinking, "Emily's not going to do this deal. She's not going to do this deal." I'm waiting for her to say something that gives me reason to believe she might want to do this deal. My default assumption is there's no deal here whatsoever. Someone has to express interest.
She did initially say, well, Senior Rodriguez had recommended me. And if she like, "You know, I've actually heard really great things about you." Okay. So now she's showing me interest because I've retreated a couple of times and she's not really following me in. So that tells me she's not that interested. I need them to be interested in me. Otherwise, I can't sell anything.
When you walk into a Gucci store and you're looking at a handbag or something, I hope Gucci makes handbags. Yes, they do. You walk into a Gucci store and you want to buy a handbag. You're already motivated to buy that handbag. They don't even need to sell you. You walk into Gucci store and say, "Why is this different than a Kohan bag?" You know what? I don't know. Why don't you go to Kohan? You're not that interested. And I'm not here to convince you.
That's the big mistake that people make, that they have some sorcery, some kind of magical silver tongue that they can say the right combination of words and make someone who's not interested interested. So we have this illusion that when somebody seems like they're not interested, they actually are. And I'm just trying to figure out, are you a yes, a no, or maybe. And I'm not hearing enough maybe in here for me to continue to working, to continue to work on this. Right? I'm going to stay neutral.

Emily:

But when I say-

Chris:

Go ahead.

Emily:

No. Yeah. I'm sorry. I was going to say, when I say, "Okay, well, I'll let you know by 6:00 PM tomorrow." You're basically saying that that's not something that you believe or doesn't mean anything, or?

Chris:

I believe you. I even gave you a little extra latitude. So I'll point this out. So you say, "I'm going to talk it over with my fiance." And you said, "I'll call you back tomorrow and I'll get to you in the evening." I said, "So what time?" You're like, "6:00 PM." I said, "Perfect." So if I don't hear from you by 7:00 PM, I'll just assume you made a different decision. I'm trying to make it as easy for you as possible to say no to me. It's one of my strategies by the way. I'm anti-pressure.
You know, another person would say, "Well, if I don't hear from you about 5:59 PM, I'm going to sell this to someone else." I'm the opposite. I'm going to give you more time me think. So there's a little grace. What it's doing is hopefully it's sending a signal to you. Chris could do nothing or he can go play another gig. He just doesn't even really care. I have no leverage over this person whatsoever.
And then you have to come to the realization which is, and it's something you have to make with your fiance. Is it worth another X dollars to do this or not? And here's the thing. This is a critical thing. So everybody, I want you to pay attention to this part. Okay? If you need to write this down. When you're willing to sell your services for less, they don't have to make a hard decision somewhere else. I want you to be the hard decision.
So, she might get like shrimp cocktails or whatever, and it's going to be more than that. But let's estate another $300 for her to get the extra fancy jumbo shrimp. And most people can tell the difference. And why would she go for the jumbo shrimp versus the world class violinist that's going to play for her because I made it easy and not hard.
The jumbo shrimp vendor didn't offer a lower price. You can't even negotiate with them. I mean, try that next time. Go to Costco. Go to like a Whole Foods or a wholesale fish market, seafood market and ask them. "You know, I saw that sign for 328 a pound, 250 a pound. What do you think?" I dare you to try that. Actually, I want you to try it and see how they laugh you out the door.
But yet here we are as creative people. Your sign says $500 an hour. They walk up to you. They bat one eyelash. You're like, "Okay, 350." Because you know why? Because you're desperate. You want it too much. You tell yourself, "Well, if I don't do this gig, I have nothing to do. And if I don't anything to do, it's better than like washing my cat, washing my hair," if you had hair. So you start to convince yourself that you need this more than anything. And then you start to attach your own self worth to this. Why would you do that? So whether it's for $200 or for $2 million, I'm going to go in exactly the same. I'm going to stay neutral and objective.

Emily:

[inaudible 00:29:02].

Chris:

Go ahead.

Emily:

I'm-

Chris:

I'm going to say neutral and objective. Go ahead. [crosstalk 00:29:04]

Guest:

I'm sorry, Emily, but I really am so curious about hearing your side of it. How did you feel? Did you want to hire Chris?

Guest:

Okay. In this role play, I would definitely be very interested in hiring Chris. That's why I'm surprised he thought I didn't have any interest. Because from my perspective, I absolutely do. I mean, I have to go back and make that hard decision. But when I think about my alternatives, because when I say I'm going to think about it, it's like okay, I have him, I have the other couple that I mentioned, which one is truly better? And maybe on the phone, it's not so obvious, I really do need to think about it so that how my perspective was. But I was pretty sure probably after reflecting carefully, I would've more than likely called him back and say, yep, let's do it.

Guest:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Chris:

I thought you might do that as well.
You know what it is? Let's talk about one layer above this okay? And I thought, perhaps you were going to call because I thought the deal was dead, but you know, I'm going to talk it over with my fiance, 6:00 PM we'll call you, I'm "Okay, great." I'm here and everything okay, let me just take this one level beyond, and I'm going to say something, if you disagree, Emily, you just say, I disagree, you're a liar. Just say it. I'm okay with that, okay? Now what you may or may not notice is I try and keep this neutral to positive the entire time. Like when she says, "Oh, it's my second marriage." I'm like, "Oh my gosh, second marriage to support." And she's like, "That's a lot of money." I'm going to say, "That's a lot of money." I'm not arguing with anybody on this stuff.
And it's like, I know you can hire lots of other people. She goes, "I do, but I don't want to." I'm like, "Okay. So what's the problem here?"

Guest:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:

Right? And even at the end, and I genuinely mean this, I wish you the very best, I really do, I want you to have a blessed wedding, marriage and a long life full of wonderful memories. I'm thinking and sending out positive energy through my brain, through my eyes, through my mouth, I'm sending it to you. Because you know what? I'm not offended if you don't want to hire me. I just want you to be happy and get with you need in life. And so some people will say, you have this charismatic way of selling or Mo would say it's sexy sales. All it is, is I have positive thoughts for you. And if you can work with me and make my life a little bit better, then great. If not, I still want the best for you. Notice how a lot of sales people, when you don't book them, when you don't buy their timeshare or whatever it is they're trying to sell you, their personality turns on you like an instant.

Guest:

Yes.

Chris:

You've seen that? What are your thoughts about them when they do that?

Guest:

Well, they didn't care about you. [crosstalk 00:31:35].

Chris:

No. [crosstalk 00:31:36].

Guest:

In the first place, so why would you buy from them?

Chris:

And they're fake.

Guest:

Yeah.

Chris:

I'm not fake, I'm really trying to help you here. [crosstalk 00:31:43] I even said, I'll help you find somebody that's one of my friends. That's not as good as me. I'll help you find somebody.

Guest:

Right. Right. And just to clarify this one point. So when you state your price firmly, as you've explained, and the whole idea of the defending, so you don't... That part, if you wouldn't mind clarifying. It seems to me that when people are asking you back and forth on price, that's when you have to defend the so-called defend your price or defend whatever. So when you say don't defend yourself.

Chris:

Yes?

Guest:

How does that play out in this specific instance?

Chris:

Right, you didn't give me opportunities to defend myself because you never attacked me.

Guest:

Oh, okay.

Chris:

You know, your role play is supposed to reveal the things that you want to know, right? You got caught up in the character.

Guest:

Okay.

Chris:

And you know why? Do you remember that's what you wanted to know? But you didn't even bring it up.

Guest:

Yeah.

Chris:

You never asked me once. Why should I hire you? Why are you better than anyone else? You didn't do it, right?

Guest:

You know, I kind of assumed that Chris, I have to tell you, and this is interesting because [crosstalk 00:32:44].

Chris:

Go ahead. [crosstalk 00:32:44].

Guest:

It's the unspoken things in your head and I'm thinking, okay, if Mr. Rodriguez referred you, then I already know you're good.

Chris:

Right.

Guest:

It's not like I have to know that you're good. I already know that.

Chris:

Right, right. I tell you what, let's pick up the scene again. And this time I want you to ask your question in the role play. So we're going to pick it up from when I ask you, "Did somebody recommend us?" And you said, "Mr. Rodriguez." But then I want you to attack me again, okay? I want you to make me defend myself and that way you're going to see how this slippery little fish avoids all of your attacks and we're going to learn together. Okay? So here's what we're going to do, everybody, here's what we're going to do. There's a little over 300 of us in this room. Before we do this part, I want you to grab a person, bring them in the room, because it's about to get super juicy right now. You're going to make lemonade out of this in a second.

Guest:

Squeeze it. Squeeze it.

Chris:

Squeeze it.
So everybody hit that little plus button at the bottom. I'm going to refresh my screen here, oops, I almost closed it on the screen, don't do that. All right, go hit the plus button, ping somebody, let somebody know, share it on social media, on Twitter, on Facebook, on LinkedIn or Instagram, wherever you got a place to share it. Bring a couple more people in this room. And what we're going to do is we're going to rewind the tape and Emily's going to pick it up from Mr. Ro... I was going to say, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rodriguez, Senior Rodriguez. And then she's going to grind me. She's going to try to make me feel like I'm a nobody, she's going to belittle me, she's going to do whatever she wants to do. I'm going to show you how to flip all of those things, and then we're going to dissect it. Is that something worth listening into? I wish I could just... There's reactions on this platform.

Guest:

Raise your hand.

Guest:

It is.

Guest:

Emily. Make him sweat.

Chris:

Make me sweat. I am already sweaty, but make me sweat some more. Okay?

Guest:

Okay, Chris.

Chris:

So wait, wait, hold on, don't do it yet. I just need to give people time to join the room. There, I see some hands being raised. Okay. Who is this? Mo is saying announced to people tipping on Twitter? Is that right, mo?

Guest:

Yes. Share your thoughts or questions on Twitter so we can be mindful of what your reactions are and what you want to dive deeper on.

Chris:

Beautiful. What do they need to do that Mo? You didn't give them full instructions.

Guest:

Yes. Go to Twitter, and then when you tweet, make sure to hashtag the tweet at the end, hashtag future pro that's, F U T U R P R O. And that's P like Paul. Future pro.

Chris:

Future pro. Okay. I just want to give the room a second to breathe there. And I also want to let you know if you're just joining us late. We're just doing some version of the Sunday slam. I saw that our room just grew a little bit here. We're doing a Sunday slam and today's or this room's topic is really about how to think critically, just navigating hard situations. And, and in this case, we're jumping into role play mode. Emily has this question, she's a violinist and she's great. She normally charges $500 per hour for the first hour. And she's getting pushback from some clients who want her to lower her price. And she's wondering how do you not defend yourself if you're being attacked? So from that, we're going to take it from that moment. And so here we go. So Emily, was there somebody who referred you to me?

Guest:

Yes. Senor Rodriguez. Mr. Rodriguez.

Chris:

Oh, Mr. Rodriguez. Beautiful. I love Mr. Rodriguez, okay.

Guest:

Yeah. But you know, there are quite a few people that I'm looking at.

Chris:

Yes. Understandably.

Guest:

As much as I appreciate his referral, I want to make sure I'm making the right choice as you know, this is my wedding. It's important to me that I create the right memories for myself and my guests. And so it's an important decision for me.

Chris:

Yes, I totally understand that a wedding is a once in a lifetime moment and it needs to be very special. I get it.

Guest:

So why should I hire you, Chris?

Chris:

I don't know. It seems like you have some concerns about budget. Am I right?

Guest:

Yes I do.

Chris:

Okay.

Guest:

I have some concerns about budget, for sure.

Chris:

Yes. So we know that you have many options, from having your cousin Mary play for free to someone like me or someone plays at the Phil harmonic, Right? You have a lot of options. So why would you choose one over the other? I'm just curious.

Guest:

Well, the question I asked you was, why should I pick you?

Chris:

Right, totally understand. But the thing is, I need to understand what criteria you use to make decisions. So I can sit here and pitch you all day long, but they're not going to be relevant to you at all.

Guest:

Fair enough.

Chris:

Right?

Guest:

Okay. Absolutely.

Chris:

Yes.

Guest:

Okay. So my criteria are; number one, that you're good, which I already know you are because you were referred to me.

Chris:

Thank you. Appreciate that.

Guest:

Yes. Number two, that you're available, which I think you already told me you were.

Chris:

Yes, we're available. Yes.

Guest:

And number three, that I can afford you with the price. So I think that's where we are.

Chris:

Oh, so really, it's down to a budget gap, right?

Guest:

Well, it's not just budget, but also personality because you want someone who has the right kind of personality. So they may be a wonderful musician, but they have one personality. So it, you want both- [crosstalk 00:37:38].

Chris:

I love that.

Guest:

So you have to entertain the people.

Chris:

I see. Okay. So if I may make some logical assumptions here, there's the quality of the musician, which I think according to Mr. Rodriguez, you say we're good enough, I'm good enough for that. And then there's the issue of budget, but budget can go up or down depending on the quality of the musician and also personality, which I love. Okay? How can I help you determine if my personality's worth the difference between my rate and what you're offering?

Guest:

Well, I've never had to price a personality.

Chris:

Me neither. So it's curious that we're doing this.

Guest:

Yes. Yeah. So, here's the thing, we're trying to imagine what the future would be, but we really don't know, so we have to base it on past experiences. So I would like to know, do you have some video clips of you at other weddings?

Chris:

Absolutely.

Guest:

Engaging with the audience?

Chris:

Yes, of course. I can share those with you. I can send them to you right after this conversation. What else would you like to see or hear?

Guest:

Very, very good. Well, I also want to know how often do you do this? Is it once in a while or do you do it regularly?

Chris:

I'm a professional musician. This is what I do. I do some something that are not weddings, but I specialize in weddings.

Guest:

Okay, excellent. Do you have a referral to the last wedding that you did?

Chris:

Absolutely. Do you need one or do you need more than one?

Guest:

How many do you have?

Chris:

As many as you'd like.

Guest:

Okay, well then give me five.

Chris:

I will give you five. Should I give you their phone numbers or their email? How do you prefer?

Guest:

I want it all. I want their phone numbers.

Chris:

I can do that. Okay, anything else?

Guest:

All right. I think that's enough. I think I've asked you enough and you're being very gracious to offer, to supply that.

Chris:

You know what, Emily, it's my pleasure. I understand how important this is. I also understand that every dollar you spend is critical to you. I would not feel good about myself, if you were to spend $500, when you can get somebody as good, that makes you feel just as happy and has a sparkling personality, just like myself for less money.

Guest:

So with that being said, why choose you? Why should I choose you?

Chris:

Well, we're going to find out because if I send you the video of my last performances, I will give you five referrals and then you can talk to them and I don't know about you, but here's how I work; I can sit here and pitch you all day, but hearing from true previous clients and customers is probably surest way to determine if what I'm saying is true, yeah?

Guest:

That's fair enough. That's fair enough. So with that being said, I guess the last real point here is about the money. All right. So, you told me that your rate is $500 for the first hour and then 250 thereafter, second hour. And so what I'd like to know is, are you willing to work with me on that price? Because that is over the budget that I had envisioned for this. And so, given that you've come so highly recommended by Mr. Rodriguez, I would love to know what you're willing to do, or if you're willing to work with me on this.

Chris:

Okay, so let me look at this here. So if you book me for two hours, first hours, 500 hours, 250. So the total will be 750. How far away am I from what you can afford?

Guest:

Well, my original budget was like 350 to 400 max.

Chris:

Mm-hmm (affirmative) For two hours?

Guest:

For a violinist

Chris:

For two hours though.

Guest:

Well, I figured I'd have them for the time that I needed them.

Chris:

Okay. So, I see we're pretty far apart here and I understand those budget limitations, but you know what my price is and I'd like to work with you.

Guest:

Okay.

Chris:

Where does this need to come in to make it work for you?

Guest:

Well, as I said, my budget is $400. So it sounds like that's where we need to come in.

Chris:

Oh, at 400?

Guest:

Yeah.

Chris:

Okay. I cannot do that. And if you're firm on that, then I don't think I should send you a video and referral because there's really no point.

Guest:

Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. I don't want to insult you because I know you're a highly regarded violinist and musician, so I understand that. So really what I'm trying to say is what do I need to adjust my budget to, that will actually make it still work for you where I can get some kind of reduction in your regular rate?

Chris:

Right. And I think I have some flexibility with you here. If I drop my rate, let's say $50 to get you to the 700. Does that work for you?

Guest:

$50? That's like hardly any kind of real reduction.

Chris:

Should we go back to 750? I'm trying here. I'm trying here, Emily.

Guest:

Chris, You're a tough one.

Chris:

Am I? I don't think I'm tough at all. I just want to be really clear. I think my time has a certain amount of value.

Guest:

Yeah, I'm sure it does, but you don't budge. I mean, $50, come on. Like that doesn't really... Look, first of all, I appreciate you're willing to do anything. So I don't want to disregard that, but I would wish I would hope it, that you could do a little more than that to make it a little bit more accommodating. I do have a limit and I'm trying to be as economical at the same time being fair to you.

Chris:

So here's what I'd like to do. I normally don't lower my rates for anybody. I made some concession. I see that it's not enough for you. And you might even be offended that I lowered at $50. So rather than us chasing each other around like a dog and a cat around a tree, you just tell me what the maximum you can afford. And I'll either tell you I can do it, or I can't. Then we will have to make some hard decisions together.

Guest:

Okay. Well, the maximum I can afford for this is $500.

Chris:

Wow. 500? Yeah. I feel like you deserve an amazing wedding for a violinist who's going to show up and give you their all so that you have this super special memorable night. Unfortunately, that violinist is not going to be me. That is just, that's not something I can do because you're asking me to do work for two hours for what I charge for one hour. I just can't do that. I'm not offended, but I just can't do it. I hope you understand.

Guest:

Okay. So 550?

Chris:

Emily, I feel like we're playing games with each other, I don't like to play games when it comes to this kind of stuff. This is not a flea market bazaar open market where we're haggling each other. I take pride in what it is that I do. And out of fairness for my other clients who pay the full rate, I just can't accept that.

Guest:

Okay. So what about 650?

Chris:

The number 700 seems pretty fair to me, but I tell you what. I can see that you've made some concessions here between 650 and 700 is 675. I'll split the difference. If that works for you, we can skip all this referral and video stuff. You can make a commitment to that right now and send me a check for half. I will lock this date in and we're good to go.

Guest:

Hey Chris, you're hired.

Chris:

Now, Emily, if you were here and we weren't doing this over zoom, I'd give you a hug and I'm sorry that it had to be so difficult for you, but I'm looking forward to doing this night with you.

Guest:

Me too. Where were you when I was doing my real negotiation, Chris?

Chris:

Wait, we're still in role play here. Do not break out a role play.

Guest:

Okay, I'm sorry.

Chris:

Dre's going to come in and kick you out of the room and me do that again, Okay?

Guest:

No.

Chris:

All right. Are we done? Are we done everybody? We done? Yes. Okay, beautiful. Yay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay.

Guest:

Good job.

Chris:

Let's break it down. Let's break it down. Like Bobby Brown. Okay. You

Guest:

Real quick for everybody after Emily, you know how fight club has one rule? Don't talk about fight club. Our one rule for role play. Do not break role play.

Chris:

Don't break role play.

Guest:

Sorry.

Chris:

No, that's okay. It's okay. I know you want to jump out. I know you want to give me a hug and everything's going to be fine and it's going to be fine. And that's how I try to do my sales conversations. It's what I want to teach people. It doesn't have to be high stress, high friction. It doesn't have to be you thumping your chest and trying to overpower your clients with all your skills and technique. No, and it's not about proving yourself. I don't want to prove myself. You see in this second role play versus the first time that we did this, Emily at least started to work with me. She's going to being a little flea marketish, you know, swap meet, but I'm okay. So when I feel that I just even mention it like, "You know, it's starting to feel like a swap meet."
I'm just going to say what it is that I think. And I want this to be really a wonderful moment, because if I create a feeling, or leave, a bitter taste in Emily's mouth and my own, I'm not going to show up and perform my best. Emily's going to try to treat me like trash afterwards. This isn't how I want begin a new relationship. I want to start on a really positive foot. And if I feel about it, I'm just going to say, "You know what, actually, to be honest, I'm not getting a good feeling right now. And I know you need to do this, but it's just not right for me. I appreciate it. Thank you very much." And get out of there.

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Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris:

Let's dissect this, let's break this down. I'd like to then just hit pause on Emily for one second, so Emily do me a favor, go ahead and hit mute. And I'd like to ask whoever else is up here, if they have a question specifically about something that's happened, if you don't, we're going to meet you again. Do you have a question about what has happened? You want me to pull apart the layers a little bit and tell you what's going on behind the scenes, if you will?

Guest:

I have a question if no anyone else has? I want to know what kind of clues do you listen for? Because you are really good at that dance, when to push when to reverse. What kind of clues in her voice? Or what did she say when you know you, "I want to push her a little bit more." Or "I need to reverse a little it." Can you describe that?

Chris:

Yeah, I don't know if I was thinking of it like reversing or pushing. I'm just trying to feel the energy here. So the energy is she seems to be engaged or when she retreats I release. And so it's a push pull principle, right? The more she pushes, the more I pull and it's just like leverage in martial arts. So if she withdraws, I'm going to see what's happening here, and if there's anything to pull her back into it. And so I don't know if there's a moment in there that you can recall because I'm trying my best to be present to the conversation and taking down little notes here, so I can then do the meta commentary and that's where my brain kind of freezes out. So I don't know if in the situation I could see one thing, Anna, did you see something?

Guest:

I saw it several times, but I do think that you explained it good. I just wanted to hear you to explain that. So, people can see it clearly what you're doing, because it is very clearly she reacts and you right away adjust to that, and then she reacts again and you adjust yourself. So it is really clear, I just wanted you to explain that a little bit, how you do it.

Chris:

You reminded me to talk about something. You'll see a lot of people on YouTube and people on the internet selling you courses, us included, that teach you a script and I've watched it happen. I was in a Grant Cardone room, masterful salespeople, trying to do their thing. And one after the other, it was a major crash and burn car wreck. And the problem is when you learn the script, if anything happens outside of script, you're totally screwed. And last time I checked, present company excluded, we're humans and people aren't robots and are not predictable like that. And no situation is exactly the same. So the core foundation of being able to be a more critical thinker or a salesperson is to just learn how to listen and to be in the moment. So I have no script. There's no script here.
I teach this and I teach you the scripts and those strategies. But the part of this is those only come into play once you recognize a pattern. And so my brain is re-routing every single time as you can imagine, right? Like I'm a traffic controller, airplanes coming in, somebody else is coming out. I'm controlling all these things, so I'm listening as best as I can, and when I spot a pattern or thinking or tone or phrase, I then default and grab one of the six Socratic process. And I just funnel it through that. Now I've done this before with Mo and with Melinda. And what happens is when we start talking and thinking critically, they're looking for the framework and this situation no longer matches the framework perfectly. And I could see a total shutdown in their computer system like uh-oh. This is not framework A, B or C. I'll just mash the two together. It'll be not great.
So what we need to do is just throw in to listen. So when she's excited, I'm going to get a little excited. And when she gets nervous, I'm going to slow down. And when she needs somebody to hear what she's saying, I'm going to make sure I play back what is said. So she knows I'm not here just to pitch and sell to her. So where you're going to see this cadence and I'm going to rise with her, I'm going to fall with her. I'm going to pick it up and move much faster, or I'm going to slow it real down, slow, slow it real, just super slow. And you'll see that happen again and again.

Guest:

And you do it really, really well. And I think Emily, if I can ask you, it seems like Chris is really good to make you feel like you're seen and listened to and understood that he can really make you feel that way. Did you feel so?

Guest:

Yes, absolutely. Because he would repeat the points that I made to highlight, like, "I know this is important to you, or I know that is important to you." So it was very clear he was listening. And also that his intent was positive. I want you to have a good wedding, I want your event to go well. So that positive intent.

Guest:

Good.

Chris:

And I want to say it's not fake either. The other day when we were talking about "Chris, how do you get rid deal with people? Like what's a secret?" I'm like, "I just really care and my main drive is to make sure you're well taken care of, because I know too, today might not be the day you hire me and you may hire someone else and you may live to regret it. And the next time somebody asks you who played at your wedding, you're going to say, don't hire that person, I want you to hire Chris. That's the decision I should have made." So I may not win. I may not win right here, but eventually I will win. How do I know that if I keep showing people I care, I try to take good care of other people, I try to be helpful, eventually it's all going to work out. Mo did you say something?

Guest:

No, I said oof. Because that's so powerful. It's what you said about building the seeds for future relationships. If they were to present themselves, it's very powerful. Great.

Guest:

I have a follow up question.

Guest:

I do have a question though?

Chris:

Okay. Mods, run it, go.

Guest:

After your breakdown, because I want to hear your breakdown. You always say you're present. You're present. You're present. How the hell are you so present? Like I wrote some things that people can do, like mirror repeat, verbalizing your intention, but I'd love to hear you breakdown the art of being present. It's like being critical of this whole discussion. So the art of being present, how to actually do it. Okay. But I'd love to hear your breakdown.

Chris:

Okay. So I don't have a great quick and easy answer that's digestible for you all to walk away with. But Chris Vos talks about this. If you just focus on repeating the last word or last two or three words, a person says it, lets them know you're listening. And I've heard this from many other people from different salespeople. So if you hear it enough time from different sales professionals who actually do this for a living, I do not. Then you're going to hear the same thing. And they said that the words that they choose to use, use those exact same words, nothing tells another person that you're listening more. Then using the literally exact same words. Tony Robbins talks about this in terms of building rapport. If they say fantastic home, you say fantastic home, don't say amazing home, say fantastic home. Because sometimes those words mean different things to people.
My wife, who is probably listening right now, who I might get into trouble later, I'll say, "Hey, this is what I want." And she'll say, "Oh, you want this?" And she'll use a different word because for her to understand it, she needs to code it in language that she understands. But when she says that I'm like, "No, that's not what I said." So I'm experiencing this as the end user too. Like I'm as a human being. When somebody says, "I want that kind of haircut." And they use a different word. I'm like, "Oh my God. I wonder if they heard me. So use the same exact words, repeat the last two or three words. And it's going to communicate to the other person that you're listening, but that doesn't really address the heart of this mode, which is to be present.
Because that's just the action that you take. What's happening inside my brain right now is I have to shut down every single thing that it is not relevant to this conversation. I have to shut it down, I don't want to think about what I'm having for dinner. I don't want to think that if I have to go to the bathroom, I don't want to think about the jobs I'm going to get after this or another call I have to be on. I have to just be more mindful and say right now, Emily is the world. She's the moon. She's the star. She's everything. And that's why a lot of times when I do these kinds of calls, the clients they get this warm and fuzzy feeling because in this day and age, people stop listening, they stop caring. And so if I start to listen and I start to care, it stands out and I don't have to do that much to stand out because most people are so self-centered, they can't even bother just to listen to the person that's going to give them money to support their life. I mean, think about that. Emily is going to make sure I have food on the table that I'm going to be able to pay down some of my student loans. And If I can't give her the time of day. I can't look out for her best interest then I'm not worthy of receiving her money.

Guest:

Damn.

Chris:

Okay. Are we ready to move on or do you guys want to keep picking this thing apart?

Guest:

I have a follow up question.

Chris:

No, no. Hold on. Hold on, hold on. I have to ask my mods, my mods? I'll get to you in a second.

Guest:

We're ready to move on, I think.

Guest:

Yeah, I think we should move.

Guest:

Okay. Waldemar, if you have a follow up question to this, I'm going to let you go in because otherwise Carol's going to have another question here. So go ahead, if it's a follow up question.

Advertisment:

Yes. When she said 650, I really thought you were going to say yes, but instead you up the, the price, like 25 more dollars because I really thought you were going to say yes because she was doing also a concession from 350 to six 50. So that was like $300 more. So, I just wanted to know, what were you thinking there?

Chris:

I guess in my mind, I was just really thinking I want my $700 or 750. I don't want less than that, I've already dropped it on 50 bucks. And so if she meets me, I'll meet her and we just keep meeting each other. And it's a very classic sales technique, negotiation technique to say as a sign of good faith, I will meet you halfway. I don't need to just go right to her number. And you know what that does too. Because you had a hard fought negotiation. It makes the other person feel like they got something again, if you agree. And if it acquiesce too quickly, they're like, "Ooh my God, I could have had this for less." And then watch, I'll explain it. You go to the store, you want to buy something? And there's like, it's 500 bucks. And you're like, well, I'll give you 300. They're like, Hmm, okay. What are you thinking? I should have asked for two 50, I'm an idiot happens all the time. You go into a client negotiation. They're like how much you charge for a logo. I charge $3,000, when can you start? I should have asked for more human nature, says that I want her to work for her price a little bit. So she can feel good at night that, you know,

Chris:

I want her to work for her prize a little bit, so she can feel good at night that you know what, she goes back to her fiance and you know what, honey, you're going to be proud of me. And her fiance well, why, why should I be proud of you?
Well, that violinist that we love that Senor Rodriguez had recommended that we just think is that just the bomb? I got her down to 675 from 750. Congratulations, honey. Oh my gosh. Now we can get those jumbo shrimp that you've been dreaming about. Done deal. Make them work for it.

Guest 1:

Me as the fiance, wait, I thought our budget was 400.

Guest 2:

But that's how it works for them.

Chris:

It's how it works in real life, man. That's when you say, I thought you think this is important. That's when the husband just shuts up or their fiance.

Guest 1:

I guess.

Guest 2:

You want to tell us Mo.

Guest 1:

Fam she went in with a budget of 400 and she paid 675. That's not a deal.

Chris:

Here's what we're going to do. We're going to flip over to Carol. And we're going to get Carol to ask her question, but before we do, I want to first, thank you guys for joining us on this Sunday afternoon, evening, or maybe really early Monday morning for some of you, God bless you for staying up this late.
We're going to be continuing in our role play. I think it was about trying to understand the layers of what's happening in a person's mind, whether it's strategic thinking negotiation, brand strategy or something like that.
We're going to let this flow and go any direction it wants to go. We've been focused on sales, but the next question could totally change the direction of our conversation. We won't know until we ask. So Carol, what's your question.

Carol:

Hi Chris. Thank you for inviting me to the stage. My question is, I have a couple of clients who are in the service based business. They're like coaches, one's a tutor coach. They are really good at what they do.
But they are reluctant to step outside their comfort zone. And it's holding them back from really stepping into their brilliance, really building their business. I've worked quite closely with them. For one, a couple of years and one over six months. I was wondering if you had any tips or insights at all, to help me to get them to move the needles. So they did step outside their comfort zone a bit more.

Chris:

Can you rephrase that as one straight question?

Carol:

Okay. How could I help a couple of my clients to step outside their comfort zone so that they could grow their business?

Chris:

I'm writing this down first. That's why the silence. Okay. Don't interpret the silence if something's wrong. So how can you help your clients step out of the comfort zone to grow their business. I need to ask you some follow up questions here. Okay?

Carol:

Okay.

Chris:

And then we're going to break this thing down. All right. This one is not ripe for role play. Not yet. Let's see where we go. So you genuinely think that you need them to change in order for them to grow. Is that right?

Carol:

Yes. I do. I think they need to change some elements of their approach.

Chris:

Okay. You took a long time to answer that because you weren't sure too, right?

Carol:

Yeah, because I don't think they've got to. Really, what I wanted to say was I think they need to change some elements of their behavior, but I'm not saying they've got to change all of it.

Chris:

Right. Is change easy or is it hard?

Carol:

I think it's different for different people, but I think generally, probably, it can be quite a challenge for a lot of people.

Chris:

Yeah. I find that change is very difficult for most people, from young people to old people and everyone in between. When my kids are playing video games or they're eating ice cream, I'm like, let's stop eating, we're going to go here. They're like dad, what? And they freak out.
And the more you do something in your life, the hard it is for you to change it. If you prefer a certain brand of toothpaste, much harder and later in life for you to change it, it changes not easy.
And so the first thing, I need you to know that his change is very difficult. Then how do I know if I were to ask you to change, you would find it really difficult too. And if I asked you to change something 180 degrees from where you're at, you would fight me the entire time. You will know it, but you'd be fighting me the entire time. Fair enough?

Carol:

Okay. I'm going to say, okay,

Chris:

You don't have to say, okay, you can disagree.

Carol:

I don't. This is what I've observed of my own behavior. You're absolutely right to initially I would disagree and I would fight it. But then afterwards, after just a bit of time of thinking about it, I would sort of bring myself around because I would look at what my behavior was before.
I'd realized that it hadn't got to me to where I wanted to go. And therefore, if I wanted to get somewhere different, then I needed to make a change.

Chris:

Beautiful.

Carol:

I would be comfortable, but I would. So, and that's the conversation that I would have in my head. Okay.

Chris:

That's fair. Now in my experience in working with lots and lots of people, and hopefully you trust me on this and I think you, you will come to the exact same conclusion. Very few people think like that because I know why, because I've made over 800 videos. They keep asking me for the same video over and over again.

Carol:

Right.

Chris:

Right. So can we accept that, maybe you're like me and change comes a little easier for us than most people?

Carol:

Okay. Yeah.

Chris:

Okay. That makes you unique. And one of the biggest mistakes we can make in life is assumed other people think and work like us, right?

Carol:

Yeah.

Chris:

let's put that down in our notepad. You are not your customer. They're actually most likely very different than you. Don't use your operating system on other people.

Carol:

Right.

Chris:

This is going to help you come from a place of empathy. My friend Annalie's favorite word empathy. We need to understand this about people. Okay. If change is difficult and scary and full of risk, even though it seems like what we're doing today is not helping, we'll still stick with it.
There's all kinds of cognitive bias that tell us, keep doing what you're doing even though it's not working out. And history is full of people that do this. We can just understand this is a normal human phenomenon. Right?

Carol:

Okay. Yeah.

Chris:

Okay. If what might appear to you to be a small change, let's put all change in that category of difficult.

Carol:

Right.

Chris:

Okay. Now we have to kind of understand why it's difficult and how to help people out of that. So what we want to do is we want to make the change seems smaller than it really is.
And we do this by getting really small commitments from them. And sometimes they don't even need to know where it's going. I'll give you an example. In chemistry class, back in high school, we would learn to find the boiling point of a liquid or a substance. Then we would find out how to separate materials into different boiling points. And then they would add another skill.
And the next thing you know, you've learned chemistry. But if you had told me at the very beginning, I'm going to learn chemistry and there's going to be this very complex process. It might be too much for my brain to comprehend. So you, as a person who provides creative services for other people probably, want to develop a long term curriculum to go from where they're at, to where they want to be. So what you can do is this.
You can have a conversation with them and say, okay, here's where we're at. Ideally three years from now, where will we like to be? Or we know we've made significant progress in our life, in our business. It's a Sullivan question.
And they're going to tell you. And then if you can get agreement on that, you can say, well, how will we get there? And they're going to tell you, so here's another idea I want you to get you all to master right now. At least master the principle, maybe not the application. Is very few people want to do what other people tell them to do.
And there's a famous quote, going to butcher it. It's like, "I've never liked it, an idea that's not my own." So what you're going to do is you're going help them with their words and their ideas to get them to go from point A to point B.
Not just starting off by saying, here's what we're going to do, here's what I came up with, here's what the research shows us, here's what the data says. But oftentimes, and now we can get into really strategic thinking here is I say, what do you want to accomplish? What's getting in your way? How might you overcome this? Do you have the resources? Are you aware of the constraints? What do you have to give up to get this? Is this worthwhile to pursue? These are a bunch of the questions you can ask and I'm going to demonstrate it to you.
Now we're going to flip into role play mode in a second. Carol, you understand so far?

Carol:

Yes, I do. Brilliant. Thank you.

Chris:

I want you to think of your mind as a fortress, that it's very good at defending off any foreign ideas. It really is because the minute somebody tells something that isn't in alignment with your worldview, you have to shut that idea down because to accept that idea is you telling yourself you've been wrong for a long time and is a very painful thing to do. Some of us have this ability to turn that part off in our brain.
So therefore, we can accept these foreign ideas. We grow really fast. Most people don't have that. So what you want to do is you have to win the battle, invade the fortress from within. So imagine if you were able to drop in little leaflets or notes within this, fortress where people start reading your ideas. Like, you know what?
We agree with that. The change happens from the inside. Eventually they just open a gate for you. Complicated metaphor. Maybe it's not perfect. I know it's not because I just made it up. So here we are.
I'm going to ask you something right now. So we're going to forget about your client right now. Okay?

Carol:

Okay.

Chris:

I'm going to ask you and here we go. I want you to just be you. You don't have to pretend to be anyone else.

Carol:

All right. Okay.

Chris:

Okay. What's something that you'd like to get help with that it's going help you improve your life or your business in the next say year.

Carol:

I would like to get a really good graphic designer to help me with my graphics for my business.

Chris:

Okay. Beautiful. You need to find a really good graphic designer?

Carol:

Yes.

Chris:

And what criteria will you use to determine if they're good?

Carol:

I would just look at their work. And if I like it, if I feel a connection with it, if it's something that I feel might be able to represent me, then I would sort of like go with my intuition.

Chris:

Okay. And since I'm like a recruiter here, I know many graphic designers. If I could save you time, I could filter out possible candidates so that you don't have to look at a thousand portfolios. So could you give me a couple of descriptors or criteria in which they have to meet in order for you to be able to say yes, "I would consider those people". Like for example, do they have to have a Degree?

Carol:

No, they don't have to have a Degree.

Chris:

Okay. I'll help you if you let me, I'll ask a few questions.

Carol:

Of course. Absolutely.

Chris:

Because you said intuition is like, I can't measure intuition. It's difficult. No Degree. Do they have to have a certain number of years of experience?

Carol:

Yeah.

Chris:

How many?

Carol:

I would say at least a couple.

Chris:

Like two?

Carol:

Two, yes.

Chris:

Okay. Are there any key skills sets that they must have? These are mandates. They must be able to do these things and what are they?

Carol:

They have to be really good at time management. They have to be able to deliver when they say they're going to deliver and they have to be always looking to push the boundaries. So what's coming up new, being creative and inventive.

Chris:

Okay. A lot of these things that you've said are hard to measure by looking at a portfolio. Is there anything that by looking at a portfolio that you're looking for, like a certain experience within a vertical?

Carol:

I've never been asked that question,

Chris:

But you know what I mean? Let's say, I don't know what you do, but let's say it's packaging. So it better be that they have a lot of packaging experience because otherwise we don't know if they can do the work. If you're doing a lot of logo and identity design, you'd want to see that. If you need editorial design. Can you help me out there?

Carol:

Yes. Okay. Thank you.

Chris:

Yes.

Carol:

Now that I understand, I would want to see that they've worked with a lot of service based businesses.

Chris:

When you say service based business, can you expand on that? I want to make sure we're using the same words here.

Carol:

Okay. I work with a lot of coaches and consultants. I'm a business mentor. I would like to have somebody who also has those clients as well on their books.

Chris:

I see. And what do those things look like when you make them. What form does it take?

Carol:

From a graphic design point of view, they would have really interesting and unusual pictures. They'd have great typography that sort of captures your attention and they would be creative. It'd be a little bit different, not the normal.
I don't know if that's really answering your question, but not the normal run of the mill pictures that you can say Canva or somewhere like that. Something, maybe they've modified them a little bit, that they've put their own stamp on it to make it look a little bit different and unusual.

Chris:

Okay. I know what we need to do. I can tell right now that you're a very intuitive person that even extracting this information for you might be slightly uncomfortable or painful. So I have an idea. Is it?

Carol:

It does. It does feel a bit uncomfortable.

Chris:

I'm not used to this where, I come from a world where we have to hire designers all the time so we can rattle off five characteristics and then a producer can go find us a hundred people, but that's okay. I'm going to make this work on the way that you want it to work. And I just figured it out.
Why don't we do this? Why don't you spend a little bit of time on the internet, go be hands or Instagram and send me three portfolios that you think are the benchmark. So I can get a sense of that normal, but not normal, the slightly retouched or kind of personal style, the level of typography that you're interested and the kinds of imagery that you're looking for.
And then we can use that to judge whether this works or not. How does that sound? Let's make it visual instead.

Carol:

That would be fantastic if I can do that.

Chris:

I had a hunch that you would like that idea, right?

Carol:

Brilliant. Yes. Thank you.

Chris:

Okay. If I'm able to do that for you and help you achieve your goal, then will I have solved your problem?

Carol:

The question is, would it have solved my problem? Yes. In part, I would still like to be able to talk to them, want to make sure that there is the fit is right. That there is chemistry there so that they understand where I'm coming from and what I want to achieve and what my goal is.

Chris:

Of course. The way that I see this is it's going to be a series of tests before you decide to hire someone. The ultimate goal is to help you hire somebody, right?

Carol:

Yes.

Chris:

And do you have a budget in mind too? And a timeline?

Carol:

I haven't really thought about a budget yet. My timeline would be ideally within the next four weeks to get them up and run. Well to at least decide on who I'm going to work with.

Chris:

Okay. That's fair enough. In a month's time, we're going to decide who to hire and I don't want to put you on a spot, but at some point you need to come up with a budget because what if we go through this whole process and it turns out they want too much money and you can't afford them. Budget is a strong criteria unless you have an unlimited budget.

Carol:

No, I don't have an unlimited budget.

Chris:

Let's make up a number then.

Carol:

Okay. I would say maybe $400 a month.

Chris:

Okay. So this is part-time offsite.

Carol:

They can remote. It's not full-time position. They're not working for me. It's an outsourced offer.

Chris:

All right. That's not a tremendous budget, but we can work around that. It says to me that you probably have to find somebody that's not in a major market because that's not a ton of money.

Carol:

Right.

Chris:

Right. That helps me to figure this out. You're okay with working with somebody maybe from India, from the Philippines, from Eastern Europe, maybe?

Carol:

Absolutely.

Chris:

Perfect. I just needed to know because we have to do reality check there in case. Fantastic. I have almost everything I think I need for this. Let me summarize the plan here. You need to hire a designer and the way that you can determine this is you're going to give us a couple of references of the designers that you're looking for. Based on that, we will put together maybe two dozen or so candidates that fit that criteria.
from that will whittle them down through a series of interview questions, which that can help you to design so that you know, that they're good on time management that they can deliver and that they're open. They can take direction and they have the technical skills that you need, which we'll talk about later. From there, you need to make a decision within four weeks or less and that'll solve your problem, right?

Carol:

Yes.

Chris:

You may want, not just one person, you might want a handful of people in case person A is busy because we can't keep people busy for $400 a month, right? You're going to want like a roster and this roster needs to grow over time. We're going to need to develop a system for you there. Is that about right?

Carol:

That's brilliant. Yes I'd Love that.

Chris:

If I can make this problem go away for you. What is this worth to you?

Carol:

As in what's it worth in dollars to pay?

Chris:

Yes because I'm going to solve this problem for you.

Carol:

Oh, I would say maybe around a thousand dollars.

Chris:

Beautiful. Great, this is a thousand dollars problem you want to solve.

Carol:

Yeah.

Chris:

If this problem doesn't go away, is it going to cost you a thousand dollars or more?

Carol:

It's going to cost me a lot more.

Chris:

Why would you only offer me a thousand dollars then? Are you being cheap with me, Carol?

Carol:

Yes.

Chris:

Can you be fair with me then?

Carol:

Absolutely. I can be fair.

Chris:

Can you be fair? So what would you pay me then?

Carol:

I think I would need a bit of help and guidance because I've never done this before. If you were to give me an idea on what I could expect to pay, that would really help me.

Chris:

Let me just ask you this one more time. If this problem doesn't go away, it's going to be some kind of pain for you. And I don't know, because each person has a different pain point. So three months go by and we can't find anybody for you. How much pain is that going to cause you in terms of dollars? What do you think?

Carol:

I don't know to be honest. But what I do know is that it's not going to enhance my brand or help me go in the direction that I want to go. Although it probably wouldn't be damaging either. The fact is I still won't be progressing at the rate that I want to.

Chris:

That could be painful. Do you have any idea? We threw out a thousand dollars, but that sounds really low to me, Ashley.

Carol:

Would you therefore say $10,000?

Chris:

Yes. And actually I, I appreciate you doing that. I'm going to just tell you, that's actually more than I need to get paid to do this. Let's say we could do this save for 6,500 bucks. That's that's below your 10K. We're going to find you a couple of people that you're going to be able to work with and be able to scale your agency and do the work and help you to focus on running your business instead of working in your business.

Carol:

Brilliant.

Chris:

We're going to stop right here and we're going to break this whole thing down. I'm mods are, are messaging me all kinds of crazy things. I have no idea what you guys are talking about because I'm trying to focus here. Bring yourself online mods. What do you want to say to me?

Guest 1:

Drigo's not following.

Guest 2:

No.

Chris:

That's fine.

Guest 2:

He thinks we're going a little too deep. But I think with your breakdown, we're going to see the lesson within the lesson here.
Yes. That's what I was trying to say, Mel. Thanks for trying to throw me in front of the bus. What I saw happen was her initial question you really helped her get into a bigger problem that she's trying to solve versus the original thing. Absorbing how the questions that you asked her to get to that point, I think that was a bigger lesson within the whole.
I thought for a second and we're going to jump into a role play and we didn't do that. We did the opposite of that. You really got down to the problem, which I think is great. But I think for everyone that was expecting a role play that went a little deep.

Chris:

Hold on. hold your thought. Posture, did you want to say something I saw you should on mute real quick?

Guest 3:

I wanted to add that you probably rise her to the top and then you made a small step back and made a very gentle move saying that it's too much for you and you want to make her business better. And that's why you want to charge her less. And that actually convinced her to be opened and to take your offer. And it did make a real relationship, I guess a deeper one.

Chris:

All right. To address Drigo's young comment and observation. He's like we didn't do a role play, that was the role play. I don't know where you were, Drigo? You sleep at the wheel? Are you still on the road right now?

Guest 2:

No, I'm home. Her original question was about getting the people she worked with to do the other coaching stuff, to do the things that they didn't want to do.

Chris:

What we did there was we closed that door already and I said, I want to help you. And I'm going to show you what you do, so that she can feel it firsthand. And then she can map it to the specifics of how she can deal with her client.

Carol:

you did that beautifully, Chris. Absolutely beautifully because from my perspective, what it showed me. So first of all, I think Chris, you have a beautiful way of having a conversation. The tone in your voice is really great. There is no aggression whatsoever that you see with a lot of people, but what you do is you help people to move through that difficulty.
What you did was you showed me, what it might be like for my clients and through asking really great questions. What happened was I went from. I've got really no idea. My pricing is completely out of whack to having a much better idea of what it was.
Understanding what I need to do and then bringing me forward, but making me feel good about it. I didn't feel I was being pushed into a corner and that I had no other choice. As you said, it's not about telling, it's about having empathy and then leading the person so, they're actually making the decision.

Chris:

I want to help break this down even finer but that was wonderful. Carol, I have to say anytime we're in a room and you want to join us just because I love your accent and the way you communicate. Please raise your hand and you guys remember her. I'm going to follow you right now. Hold on.

Guest 1:

I already did. I commend Carol. Her communication is beautiful.

Chris:

Mo, get off my thing. I'm already on this. You don't have to double up on us. All right. No. All due credit. Mo did say, "I just love the way she communicates". I stole that from you.
Mo let the ego go. It doesn't only have to be about you. We are a team here just because you throw the pass to me and I take it into the bucket you don't have to jump all over it.
Young people in their ego, Carol. Don't worry about that. They're just so young.

Guest 1:

I want to share something real quick. I want to let you know that something you didn't know you at the beginning of the call, you said pick people to join us on stage. Carol was somebody in the audience who did not raise her hand. I want to commend her. She was a lottery pick.

Chris:

Oh my God.

Guest 1:

Yes, she was random profile picture. I liked her title as a professional at what she does and I thought she would bring good conversation and she delivered exceptionally. I wanted you to know.

Chris:

Wow. That was just dumb luck on our part. I have to say, see how Mo tried to take credit for that again. Look at that. This guy.
All right. Let's get into the breakdown enough funny business. Before I do the breakdown, I want to let everybody know. We're one hour and a half into what is my third call for today and my last call for today. And we're just talking about how to unpack and unravel the mysteries of what I do my mind. And in terms of strategic thinking, consulting, helping somebody through a sales thing.
We have no idea what the agenda is. People come up, they present a problem and you're going to see me work through the problem in real time. I believe one of my strengths is thinking on my feet and being very spontaneous and adapting to things.
My crew, the four horsemen of the club apocalypse here, they're going to help pull out the nuggets and help figure this thing out in real time. I believe, if you're paying careful attention here, we're going through some advanced techniques here.
I'm going to break it down or granularly because my poor friend Drigo, who's playing chess. I'm sorry, Drigo's playing checkers. We're playing chess. And he's like, "I'm confused guys, what's going on here?"
Here we go. Thrown under the bus and all. All right.

Guest 1:

Thank you.

Chris:

Couple things, I had previously said, it's very difficult to convince somebody of something they don't already believe in. although I know somebody might have said, Chris took her through and convinced her something, it's not what I did. If you really play back this conversation, you're going to see all I did was ask her a bunch of questions.
When we got stuck, I acknowledged that we're stuck and I had to figure something else out. In Carol, trying to describe what she's looking for, I can see this is the real problem. Everybody needs to take a note of this. The problem is Carol has not done this exercise before, where she's had to articulate to herself or to someone else who she's looking for.Therefore, that's the problem.
I need help with the designer. What kind of designer do you need? I don't know. The problem was right there. And we tried and she was a little uncomfortable with it. She's an intuitive person. So then I said, okay, well intuition people. She's a "I'll know it if I see it" kind of person. That's not a bad thing. It's a thing. I said, show me some examples and then from that, as soon as I said that and offered it up to her, she was like, "Yes, I could do that".
We got past the obstacle because we found another way. Then immediately afterwards, she said, "How do I know they're going to work well with me? If they'll take direction, if they're good with time management".
Then I had to respond to it and say, "it's a multi-tiered thing" I can tell she's relatively new to this because for me in my world, of course that's the next step. I had to say, I understand that we'll work through that if that's okay.
For bonus, I want to throw in there for you because I'm going to throw a pricing thing in there, right? If I solve this problem for you, what's it worth? And she's like, "Oh, I didn't even know it's going to be charged for this". Well, I got to get paid for what I'm doing. Her first number was a thousand bucks because she doesn't know.
And with a little careful and gentle prodding, she increased that number by 10 X, through conversation, no selling, no pitching. And you see how quickly she transitioned from a thousand dollars to this is worth a lot. And what she did there was she overshot the mark. And I also wanted to show you a different approach.
Now, normally money Chris would say, I'm taking the 10K, but I also wanted to show you sometimes when you do this, right, the clients will say more than you have a right to take and you need to be ethical and you need to be honest and you need to take care of these people that are your clients. That's when I said, and it's not often that I do this. Actually, that's more than what I need to do this. I can give you a good solution.
I can feel good about this and set you on your way without trying to take every dollar from Carol. Lots of things, unpacked there. You notice also when Carol said $400 a month, that was a moment there. you have to recognize that, that's not a lot of money. So concessions have to be made. We have to work with a different market because you couldn't hire a person in the U.S. for a month for $400. She's not going to work, not in the U.K. either, not enough money, but she knew that already because she agreed right away. Of course, of course.

Chris:

She knew that already, because she agreed right away. Of course, of course. And then I saw a gap there, which is if I find her one person who works for her part-time at $400 a day, a month I'm sorry, that person may not be available. That person may not be the right fit. So that immediately told me she needs more than one person on a roster now. And now I have a complete solution for her.
We'll vet them visually. We'll follow up with interview questions that are the most important to her. We know what the budget is, so we know where to look now and we know we need more than one person. That tells me that we need to cast a wider net, and so that she can have probably three to six people she can call on, on any given Sunday.
Option A, B, C. C is available I like that. Good. So that her stress level goes down so that she can be more productive, and go out there and get more work, and feel more accomplished in her life. And that's why I suspect, and Carol correct me if I'm wrong, she's willing to pay more because she saw that future that I didn't need to sell her. Carol, what do you think?

Carol:

Yeah, absolutely.

Chris:

Okay. With that, mods?

Anna Lee:

We focus a lot on what you said, and I think this is maybe when people get a little bit confused and get too much into this want to follow a questionnaire or something. But what you do, that is really, really good is that how you actually talk is the most important thing, because she said you have this smooth voice, you have a nice tone of voice. You have a non-aggressive tone, and I do think that the way you talk, you can almost say whatever you want, because you have this... I can feel that she trusts you. So you can just lead her. And ask your question. It's a little bit like you can say almost whatever you want when you smile at the same time. When you have Christo's voice, you can say almost whatever you want. And she just trusts you. I think that's kind of interesting to see.

Chris:

It's one of the first things that she did note. When Carol did the summary, she said tone and she also said, "You made the difficulty seem a little easier." So the way we make the difficult things seem easier is we just break them down to smaller bite-size pieces. Now I want to point out something, we're going to get super meta here. Okay? So Anne Lee, feel free to keep talking to me about this, just to help deepen the learning experience for everyone. Here's what's happening. Now, I already knew the answer to all of this.
I knew it from the minute she just started to frame the question. I know it seems weird to you guys that I could know the answer before we even start, but I do. I have a hunch as to what it is. And as soon as she started to describe her designers and all this kind of stuff, I knew it's like, "Okay, this is relatively new to Carol. She's either tried this before and it's not worked, or she's not been able to be successful at this because a person who's looked at this problem would be able to describe it to me in an instant. She wasn't able to do that."
So what I'm doing now, is I zoom out of the conversation really fast. I'm up in the sky right now. I know that she needs to hire people. I know there's a budget involved, and I know I can help her find people. Now I have to zoom all the way back down and to break that process down into little bite-size pieces, one step at a time, that expression inch by inch, everything's a cinch, yard by yard, everything is hard. I'm not going to ask her to take one giant leap. It's the small little steps, the small commitments that she can make, reducing down the risk of looking stupid or making a bad decision.
So when you're out in the real world, you have to have enough experience and knowledge to know I have a hunch as to what the problem is. I'm going to start to structure questions that are going to help me to eliminate a lot of options. And anytime I see something that is not what I think it is, then I have to change the plan. If you get a negative response and it eliminates your solution, you drop your solution. You walk away from that and you find a new solution. You keep working through it. This is probably [crosstalk 01:31:01]

Emily:

They explain that.

Chris:

Go ahead, Emily.

Emily:

Yeah. I can explain that in a little bit easier, or a different way. I think it's a little bit different. I understand that zoom out. And then you zoom in again, and you want to take a bit small pieces.

Chris:

Yes.

Emily:

How exactly do you do that?

Chris:

Okay. I'm going to give you guys a very common occurrence. And I'm going to break that down. If that doesn't work, then I'll try something else. Okay? Emily, thank you for asking that because it could still be kind of abstract for people. This is something that comes up all the time in personal relationships. Whether you're married, dating somebody, or just hanging out with friends. The question that always comes up, at least pre COVID is, "Hey, where do you want to eat?" And then, depending on who's in that group, it could take you an hour and a half to figure out where to eat because there's no framework. Nobody knows how to talk about it. And so I've had a lot of practice at this, because every time my wife and I get in the car, we have a general rule, we get in the car, I drive. I'm going to point in a direction and we have to figure it out before we pass whatever options are available. So you can imagine it creates a little bit of anxiety in the Dough family, right?

Emily:

Yeah.

Chris:

And so then my wife will say, "Well what do you feel like having?" So when I was younger, I would throw out a lot of options. We can have some Chinese food. We can go for sushi. How about some pasta or pizza? And then it would look like they're working and then eventually she would just say, "I want to have dumplings." And then I would get frustrated. So you asked me a question, "What do you want to eat?" I gave you a multitude of options and you didn't listen to any of them and you did your own thing. What happened there?
Okay. Let's just understand this one. Am bring it back to the client's work. Sometimes, this is what you do to your clients. "I need a logo." How about this kind, how about that kind of, how about this kind of logo? And then eventually you run out of options and like, no, those are not the logos I wanted. I didn't ask her any questions. I just started giving answers. So what we need to do. We need to do what Michael Bungay Stanier says in his book, The Coaching Habit, which is we need to ask more questions. We need to give a little less advice. We need to stay open a little bit longer and wonderful things can happen.
So what I've learned now is that when my wife asked me, "Where do you want to eat?" I just start asking a bunch of questions. And usually, the first question I ask is, "Are you asking me, or are you just thinking out loud?" And that usually will end it because in all honesty, she wasn't even asking me. She was just thinking to herself, "What do I want to eat?" but her mouth was moving when she said that. So then she laughs. I just sit there and I just keep driving.
But normal people, not to say that my wife is not normal, normal people say, "Chris, do you have any recommendations for where to eat?" I said, "Yes, what's your preference. Do you have any allergies? Are you on a timeline? Do you have a budget? Are they anything else that you can tell me? Does the dining experience matter? Are you looking for something quick, something that's not loud where you can go in, you can have a deep conversation. Are drinks important? Is the decor important? What's your favorite type of food?" So you see, I already know a gazillion options here. I just have to ask those questions to make the decision process a little bit easier. So that's the zooming in, zooming out, right?

Emily:

Yeah. I think that a lot of people want to ask more questions, but maybe that is when it gets a little bit difficult, because you start to think about what is the perfect question to ask? And now you just asked a little bit of yes and no questions, but do you want to do that, or do you want to ask more open questions?

Chris:

I want to ask questions that help to eliminate large groups of options.

Emily:

Okay.

Chris:

There's a game that you are maybe aware of, but is in Quentin Tarantino's film, Inglorious Bastards. There's a bunch of German officers with a couple of American spies in there. And they play this game where they write the name of somebody fictional, living or dead or whatever. And then they shuffle the card, and then they put the card to their forehead so the person who's playing the game can't see what's put on their head. Say it's Winston Churchill. And so, the person guessing has to ask a bunch of questions, and the kinds of questions they ask quickly eliminate the options and you can see, if you learn how to ask the right kind of questions, you can get to the answer really fast. So the person that has a theory.

Emily:

Yeah.

Chris:

They have a hypothesis. I think I know what this is. And so they visualize that person. Let's say it's Winston Churchill, right? They're like, "Is this a man?" Yes. So I've eliminated women. Is this person real? Yes. So now it's a historical figure and not somebody made up. So now I know it's male and a real person. And if I think it's Winston Churchill, I'm going to be like, "Is this person British?" Yes. And then they throw the card down, "Winston Churchill." Everybody's like, "Oh my God, amazing. You're a genius." So what you're trying to do is you have a hunch. You have to start with a hunch. You ask questions to quickly eliminate if your hunch is correct or not.

Emily:

Exactly. That is the thing. Exactly what you said now. I think you have a hunch, and then you need to see if that is correct or not, narrow it down. I think that was really good, about that game, because I think most people can see that in front of themselves how to do that. I like that.

Chris:

Beautiful. You know what I like?

Emily:

Thank you.

Chris:

Yes. You're welcome. It's almost midnight for Anna Lee. I'm going to wrap this room up in the next 10 minutes. I'm parched, I'm hungry, and I don't want to get hangry. So what I want to do is to try to open this up to a learning conversation. So I'd like everybody who has their hand up to first lower it, please. Lower all the hands. Let's clear this out. Everyone has their hands up. Please, go ahead and lower your hand. Okay. Beautiful. Thank you everybody. Okay. Now, let's turn the hand raising option back on. I would like to invite as many people that we can take on to share one learning outcome. One thing that you learned today, and we're just going to go from top to bottom, left to right. It's important for us to articulate in words that we can remember, what we can apply in our life.
Okay? So please have yourself muted when you come onto stage, because it's very distracting. Just come on and hit mute and I'm going to prompt you in a second. So do this before I call on you. You have all the time in the world. Sit down and really think, what was the one or two things that you learned and write them down. What's something that you can apply moving forward. Use very precise language, use as few words as possible, and keep working on that until it makes sense to you. Okay? And this is us practicing together as a group, how to record ideas, how we embed learning into our routine and into our brain. It's what we're doing here. Okay, so we got a bunch of people. So we're going to call on you in a second. Okay.?And we're going to close down the room in two seconds.
Please make sure you're muted everyone. Now I just want to quickly say, first of all, thank you for hanging out with us for almost two hours now, especially if you've been here since the very morning, I started at 10:00 AM this morning, so it's been a lot longer than that. I'm doing this for a couple different reasons. I'm trying to help my friends Drigo, Mo and Anna Lee use the social platform to raise awareness about what it is that they're doing. But I'm also trying to draw attention to my coaching group. If you like what you're hearing here today, if you like the tone of my voice, the style of teaching, I would love for you to join us in the future pro group. It does cost money. If you feel like you want to do this and it gives you joy and you want to learn and go down the rabbit hole deeper, please do join us. And that's my sales pitch. And that's all I got for that. Okay. Let's go across the board here. Mods, do you want to participate or do you not want to participate in this?

Anna Lee:

I don't need to. [crosstalk 01:38:54]

Drigo:

I say we let our guests participate. We can just listen.

Chris:

Okay.

Anna Lee:

I think so.

Chris:

All right. So we're going to start with Pasha, Waldemar and then Carol. If you've already shared one thing before, you could share the same thing, you could share something new. Totally up to you. Pasha, you're up.

Pasha:

Yeah. You just really need to care about the person and about his goals, and deep dive into what he really needs rather than what he's saying, because people are wrong, and they probably sometimes do not know what they want really. So if you dive deeper with the questions, you'll find out and you will help them.

Chris:

Let me help you there out. We want to set the tone for this and jiggles, that's why I asked my mods if they want to start, they say no, and then they want to start. It just confuses me a little bit. So Pasha, I want to clarify some of the things that you said, and hopefully each time we do this, you guys are going to get better at saying this, okay? I'm very particular about the language and the words I use, because those things change the meaning of things.
So the best sales tool in the world is to show that you care. That's it. The best sales tool and technique in the world is to genuinely care about people, and clients aren't wrong. They're not wrong. That word needs to be removed from your vocabulary. They just need help in figuring out what really matters. Because if you enter into that conversation thinking they're wrong, it's going to be adversarial. You're going to maybe be condescending. You might be arrogant. You might be judgemental or judging. We don't want to do that. That's the opposite of caring. They have the answers. They know what they need to do. They're just not always clear about it. You can help them. Waldemar, go straight. What's one thing that you learned.

Mo:

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Chris:

Go ahead, Mo.

Mo:

Chris, the way you just summarized Pasha's, you did it within 10 words. Can that be the rule?

Chris:

Try to stick to 10 words. Thank you, Pasha.

Pasha:

Yeah. Thank you.

Chris:

Yes. Waldemar, go.

Waldemar:

That I wanted to double down what Pasha said. If you don't care, you won't listen. And if you won't listen, you won't be able to help anyone that's trying to contact you for your service.

Chris:

Great. Thank you Waldemar. Carol, please go.

Carol:

Help your client come to the solution through asking questions.

Chris:

Excellent job, Carol. Bravo, once again. Okay.

Carol:

Thank you.

Chris:

Ina, Maria, and then Alex.

Ina:

Hello. So I would say, I really loved your reference about the supermarket. So the thing about dealing with clients and meeting in the middle, that's something that was very interesting to me.

Chris:

Great. Thank you very much. Maria.

Maria:

Hello. So for me, what was really good insight is to feel your client. And be energetic when clients are energetic, and slow down when they feel nervous or not sure what to do. So that was my insight.

Chris:

Great. So Maria is saying match and mirror your clients in energy, in tone, in words. Alex, go.

Alex:

Chris, by mirroring one's vocabulary, we can meet clients where they're at.

Chris:

Excellent. Thank you, Alex. Then next is going to be Larry, PO, and then Fati.

Larry:

Thanks. Create better outcomes by listening more.

Chris:

Excellent. PO go.

PO:

Mirror the exact vocabulary.

Chris:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mirror the exact vocabulary. See, I just did that. Fati.

Fati:

Find out the value the client is looking for by asking better questions.

Chris:

Excellent. So now we're going to go to Miguel, Dimitri, and Ricky.

Miguel:

Ask more questions and give a little advice.

Chris:

Beautiful. Dimitri.

Dmitri:

Look for the outcome and then break down the steps.

Chris:

Excellent. Ricky.

Ricky:

You reminded me to think about the architecture of a conversation.

Chris:

Excellent. Then it's going to be Revens, I think it's Julie or Jule, and then Unique.

Revens:

Never lower your price until the customer is willing to work with you.

Chris:

Back to the price. Good one. Okay. And then is it Julie or Jule?

Jule:

It's Jule.

Chris:

Jule, sorry I've been saying it wrong.

Jule:

It's okay. Giving information is about helping a client make a decision. That's the goal.

Chris:

Yes. Okay. And then Unique.

Unique:

Hi, I gathered that your agenda should only be to help by showing your client that you care.

Chris:

100%. Mo and mods, I want to have a room on just learning how to help people.

Mo:

Just care.

Chris:

Just care, just care. Okay. Make a note guys. So when I call you on the spot, sunday slam, what are we talking about? You don't scramble like you're on the ice again. Okay. Amy, Amy Lynn.

Amy Lynn:

Start with a hunch and then ask questions to narrow down the answer.

Chris:

Excellent. You're going to make Anna Lee happy with that one. Beautiful. I hear a dog in the background. Hope everything's okay. So Cameron, is it Guzya, and then Shane.

Cameron:

Do not volunteer to reduce your own price.

Chris:

Perfect. Hopefully you can do that. Okay. Next up Gozya, or Gazya?

Gozya:

So show you care about your client, but also show them you know your worth.

Chris:

Okay. Excellent. Shane.

Gozya:

Thank you.

Chris:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Shane:

Using empathy to reduce the risk. Guide the client inch by inch and everything is a cinch.

Chris:

Excellent. Using those words there. See, now I know he's paying attention, right? Anna Lee, you see that? He's paying attention.

Anna Lee:

Yeah. Shane is good. Thanks.

Chris:

Yes. Very good. Okay. Then we go, Simon, is it Yuri, and then Yang.

Simon:

Ask clearly and kindly.

Chris:

Nice, and concise. See how I did that Mo?

Mo:

You're a rapper now? You're a rapper.

Chris:

No, it's just, what is that called? Alliteration?

Not sure:

It's called rhyming.

Chris:

Rhyming. Okay. Let's go on. Yuri and then Yang.

Yuri:

Okay, before starting talking to client, clearly understand what work conditions are appropriate to you.

Chris:

Okay. Great. Yang, go.

Yang:

Language is not always the only way to understand someone else.

Chris:

Perfect. That's totally true. Neil.

Neil:

Ask more, tell less, and listen.

Chris:

Beautiful. Have you read the Coaching Habit, Neil?

Neil:

I have.

Chris:

Okay, beautiful. Have you heard our podcast with Michael Bungay Stanier?

Neil:

I just downloaded the book when you mentioned it.

Chris:

Okay. I would encourage you to listen to that, because he breaks down pricing. I put him on the spot. He did a masterful job. Michael Bungay Stanier on our podcast, the future available wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay. We're going to wrap it up with Daniel, Jeff, Mordecai, and then Yana.

Daniel:

Enter your client's world and learn to speak their language. Don't make them speak yours.

Chris:

That is actually perfect. The way I would say that is, speak the native language of your client. Understand the customs and cultures, you're going to do really well. Okay. Excellent job there. Okay, Jeff?

Jeff:

Intentionally involves feedback in every part of the process.

Chris:

Love it. Okay. Mordecai, is it Mordecai?

Mordecai:

I would say don't lead from status, but from connection.

Chris:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Love it. Yana, you get the last word here.

Yana:

Yes. My learning was know your worth, and if you compensate in it then have good reasons to do so, otherwise it will cause confusion. It's good to be the hard choice.

Chris:

It is. You have to ask some hard questions to get to be the hard choice. Anybody can win the job by being the lowest price, about extending all kinds of terms and conditions to the client. You don't want to be anybody. You want to be somebody. Hold your ground, okay? All right. Here's what I'd like to ask you to do now. Whether you said it, or you didn't say it for all the several hundred people that are in this room, I really want you to make a whole bunch of people feel like they're missing out on some really deep learning with us. And the best way to make them jealous or jelly, is to post something that you learned today on social media and then tag us and let us know. You have all the time in the world to carefully formulate your thinking. Like I said, it doesn't have to be what you said, but whatever resonates the most with you, share it on social media, put it out into the universe. It's going to help us a lot.
Okay.? I'm looking to grow my presence in this room and I go where the energy and the action is. And right now, there's a lot of energy and action inside the clubhouse. So if we continue to kind of attract the people that want to hear and learn from the things that we're talking about, the more likely I'll be doing this. There's a consequence of this. I am neglecting Facebook and other platforms for a little while, but I go where the people go and they seem to be here on this platform. I want to also remind you before I jet out of here and play some music for y'all, is to go ahead and follow whatever mods that you want to follow, including Drigo, Mo and Annalee, we're having a little friendly competition to see who can grow the fastest, and Anna Lee the dark horse in this race-

Anna Lee:

Yeah.

Chris:

... just shot ahead of everybody. And it's making Mo and Drigo kind of embarrassed and they should be. So I just want to throw that out there. Okay? We're having fun here. It's what we're doing. And it's my intention to use a platform like this, to teach and help as many people as possible. There's something wonderful in the power of conversation that I'm really drawn to, and to be able to help solve problems in real time. Now, if you don't know this, I actually charge a lot of money to do consulting, but as people show up, I do get something out of this, and I get to grow my influence and help my friends. So therefore, I don't need to charge you to do this. Mo, Drigo and Anna Lee, are there any last thoughts before we kind of wrap it up?

Drigo:

Are there any last thoughts, Chris?

Chris:

Yeah. You stalling?

Mo:

Since we're all stalling, make sure to tag whatever you post with, hashtag F U T U R E P, as in Paul, R O, Future Pro. Hashtag Future Pro, wherever it is that you post it, just give us that hashtag, because that'll let us know what really sunk in, what really resonated. And we can create future rooms to dig even deeper into those takeaways.

Anna Lee:

Yeah. And sharing is caring on Valentine's day.

Chris:

Right? It's Valentine's day. Happy Valentine's day, everybody. For learning strategy, sales and critical thinking. That's the most romantic gift anybody can ever have.

Anna Lee:

Yeah. We care about you.

Mo:

Call it's the Valentine's day [inaudible 01:49:27]. So it's not fun. [crosstalk 01:49:28] Sunday Slam.

Anna Lee:

Virtual hugs.

Chris:

Yes. Drigo, last thoughts?

Drigo:

You guys enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Chris:

Okay. I do want to let you guys know a couple of things are happening so that you can set your swatch watch to this starting tomorrow. I'm going to be kicking off a 12-day program talking to the author. Blair Enns wrote the win without pitching manifesto, 12 proclamations. So we're doing 12-day of content, and we'll see where this goes, but I think that's going to be awesome.
I jokingly refer to it as the church of the win without pitching, and we're going to go through one proclamation each night. We're going to go deep. Blair is a wonderful speaker. He's an author. He's a coach. And I definitely tune into this. I think we should be charging you to do this, but it's out there for free. He's agreed to do it. And if you know anything about me in terms of the business concepts that I know, you're going to recognize the words.
As soon as Blair starts talking, I just happen to be a really, really good student. And so tune in for that. Now, one last little thing. If you know anything about me, I'm a former designer. I make content to try and help people to be able to live a sustainable life. Now, part of that too, is I'm a little sassy myself. I've got a little edge to myself.
I do not apologize for being that. I am not here to be everything to everyone. I want to teach you. I want to help you, but I do have finite patience. And if you step into the ring with us, you can expect a little sassiness from time to time. I just want you to be aware of that. So nobody goes away shocked. Like, oh my God, he's not caring. I try to care, but I also have an edge.
Thank you for giving up a little bit of your life for us. I hope you got value from this conversation on behalf of the entire team. Drigo Mo myself and Anna. We're all future pro people. We'd love to see you inside the group. And we, we were just wishing you an incredible rest of your day, night, evening, or morning. We're out here. We're going to play the slow jams. Okay, It's time to go.

Gregor:

Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week, the future podcast is hosted by Christo and produced by me. Gregor, thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sandborn for our intro music.
If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reading and reviewing our show on Apple podcasts. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me, head over to the future.com/hey Chris, and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit the future.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you next time.

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