Orly Israel:

I didn't do anything in these conversations besides sit there and listen. And I just think it's amazing when someone realizes, "Wow, all I have to do is let someone know I'm there for them for 20 minutes and something magical might happen."

Chris Do:

This is an unusual podcast with my guest because I don't know that much about him, but what I did see made me immediately reach out and say, "I need to talk to you. I want to have a conversation with you." He's a young man and he's got a very interesting perspective on the world and he does this thing called the Listening Table. And I'll let him tell you his story, but I just want to know everything about what you're doing and how you're impacting people's lives. So Orly, for people who don't know who you are, can you please introduce yourself?

Orly Israel:

Yeah, my name is Orly Nathan Israel. I grew up in Los Angeles, California, and for my whole life loved children's books and children's stories. My father is TV writer, my mother was an art gallery curator for children's book art, so Horton Hears a Who and Dr. Seuss and The Hungry Caterpillar. And so I grew up in this world that was all about creating with art for kids and I always wanted to be a writer. Some time along the way, I got involved in entertainment media from college and also had navigated a tumultuous, but also really great relationship with two younger brothers. Just the classic younger brother, being the oldest and not knowing how to handle conflict as a kid. So I learned a lot about how to be self-control and how to listen better because I had really great parents who taught me all about good things and I wanted to tell stories about how to get along with your family.

And then at a certain point I realized in entertainment media that a lot of it is like selling toys. And if it's a kid's TV show, it's all about selling a toy. And I worked with so many people who had these ideas that were just merchandise driven. And very few of the people I worked with who were the best people, were the people who had a why of, "This is a story I have to tell and here's a reason." And I found myself in a place where I really wanted to teach about communication skills, but I didn't feel like I knew anything about communication skills. So I ended up doing a lot of volunteering. Went to this program where they kind of teach communications in prison called Freedom to Choose, which is... I'm only giving it a incredibly small amount, but it is life changing.

And they do this whole listening program all about communication. And I was like, "How does this not exist outside of prisons?" So I took their formula of someone being a listener and someone being a sharer and someone being a silent observer and I brought it to the outside once I heard a communication teacher say learning how to... He said, "You can study communication in books as much as you want, but it's just like learning how to swim where it doesn't matter how many books you read, if you don't get in the water, you don't know how to swim." And so I decided if I wanted to be able to teach something, I had to learn it and if I had to learn it, I had to swim. So I set up this Listening Table with a sign that said, "Here to listen, no judgment, no advice, no charge."

Just as I thought of, how can I practice swimming rather than just read books on it? And I did this to practice listing skills so I could learn. And I did the Listening Table about 60 times. I did every weekend since I started November of the previous year. So I've done it probably 80 or 90 weeks now. And I did it about 60 times before I posted a video or anything about it because I just wanted to learn. And eventually somebody convinced me. One of my brothers actually finally convinced me, "Make a video about this." The videos did really well and then all of a sudden I found myself in a place where I am. I just got off the phone with a student who's doing a Listening Table Program in his high school in Texas and I'm working with other high schools to set up Listening Tables that are all over the country and the world. Which is a very short version my story.

Chris Do:

This is really cool. So I understand that you went to Syracuse as a communications major and what struck me immediately about your setup, you do these recaps, Listening Table Recap, and you tell the stories and now it makes sense understanding who your parents are and your influences as a child. It makes a lot of sense, but it is quite different because we've seen somebody else with a table, I think it's Louder with Crowder who is the opposite of listening and he's there to push buttons.

So this is a harsh juxtaposition between someone who's trying to stir up the narrative versus someone who just literally just wants to sit there in silence and listen to people. So you would think, well, listening is not that hard, but anybody who's in the communication space knows that's not the case at all because we feel almost compelled sometimes to speak, to advise and to do more than what needs to be done. So tell me, are there some basic rules that you give to yourself or people who want to start a listening table, some of the key tenets of what it means to be a good listener?

Orly Israel:

Yes. I'm so glad you asked because I just put this video on YouTube of an hour and a half long, "Here's how I do it and here's how you can do it too." It's not perfect, but I realized perfection is going to stop my momentum. The guidelines are no judgment and no advice. And it's a very simple way to say, if someone is sharing something with you and it's something that is weighing on them, there's a pretty good chance they've shared it with other people and the other people have told them how to feel about it or if they've made a bad choice and what they should do. And I like to think about when I'm at the table that I'll be the one person that they can tell something to that isn't going to tell them what to do or how they should feel or what the other person would've done. Or say something like, "Oh, you're going through that, that's nothing. I'm going through this and it's way worse. So you should be grateful about your situation because it could be so much worse."

I think that if I had to say that there was just a couple guidelines, it is all about improving your own listening skills, which means the person who's talking to you is the focus of the story. Whatever it is, they're the most important person. Your curiosity is something you should pay attention to but not obey. You want to know something, but do you have to know it? Most of the time you don't. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that I have learned over the whole time is monitoring your curiosity to say, "Look, I don't know what the circumstances are behind this problem, but you have it and that's all that really matters." Man, if I could figure out how to do the guidelines in 30 seconds, that'd be really good, but I'm still working on a 10-minute little thing.

Chris Do:

Okay. So when somebody's telling you a story and they're pouring into you, what are you supposed to do as a good listener?

Orly Israel:

Great question. One of the things I love to think about is there's no right way to do this. The table is a symbol. Everyone has a table, you've got a table in your house, maybe two. And that is as much a listening table as mine is. And I don't be silent only, I'm only silent when it's the right thing to do or the best thing I can think of to do. I think that the first thing I usually do is reflective listening, which is a pretty common psychological therapy general kind of listening advice that many people give is, "Say what you hear." If someone's having a bad day, you can say, "Wow, it sounds like you're having a really difficult day." And that's it. Or if they tell a long story, you could say, "Well, it sounds like you took that really difficult news and are trying to make it something that you can work with, but you're still struggling to figure out how to do that."

There are times where I hear things that drive me crazy because I really want to say something to tell them like, "Oh, I know exactly what you're going through and this is exactly what you should do." And when I do the listening table, I think of the rules as guidelines. I can break the rules whenever I want, as long as I'm doing it on purpose. And it takes the intentionality of when you're listening to say, "Look, if you're going to give someone advice, ask them if you can give them advice."

I really never give my opinions on things and someone came up to me the other time I did a table and wanted to argue with me whether birds were real or not. "Oh, you want to talk about birds? They're real." I said, "No, Steven Crowder is the guy who's going to argue with you. I am not going to do that." Listening really just lets you realize most conversations are so low stakes, you're going to have another chance to talk to most people in your life so if you think you can do better next time, then you do better next time. But most of the time if you say something wrong, you just go, "Oh, I could have done it better, but oh well."

Chris Do:

So I have some questions for you in terms of how you started doing this thing. I don't know what your personality is like, but for me, I'm trying to imagine myself saying, I have an idea, I want to try something, but pulling out a table in random public spaces and hanging it up a sign saying, "Listening Table," it would be very uncomfortable for a person like myself who's introverted, socially awkward, I'd rather be in the shadows than in the light. How is it for you to start that idea and the first couple of times when you went out there to do it?

Orly Israel:

That's so fascinating for me to hear because you are someone who I've followed for a long time and would never have imagined you would be... I mean, you're so good at being in the light. So I think maybe we have a similarity there in the sense that I love being introverted and I realized I want to do this change in the world. I want to make people understand that better listening is not something you need to go to grad school for or take a 12-week course, it's something you could just see something slightly different and start practicing in yourself. And I just thought, if I don't do this, it's not going to happen. And it was just a culmination of me really having no other options at that point. I needed to make myself uncomfortable in order to do anything that I think was worthwhile.

And I remember I was on my iPhone and I was 27 years old and I said, "Hey Siri, how many days until my 30th birthday?" And it was like, "1,000 days." And I was like, I've got 1,000 days to do something. I have to do something ridiculous and as fast as I can." And I made a list of all the things I could do because I had a lot of ideas and the listening table just happened to be the easiest one. The least production value, I had the table, the signs cost $5. What you mentioned is the spotlight thing. And I think it speaks to, I'm not in the spotlight when I'm at the table, I am the spotlight when I'm at the table. The person who sits there is the person who gets the attention. I get some thumbs ups from people passing by, but a majority of where the attention is, is always with the person who sits down to share.

Chris Do:

But in setting up the table, you're inviting strangers to come up to you. And I've seen some of the clips where some people have strange reactions, strange conversations, some are angry, some are happy to see you. So it's inviting people into orbit and I think that's enough as an introvert to scare me. And so when I saw you doing these videos on Instagram, I was like, "Wow, that's a really neat idea that I think anybody can do, but nobody does." And so I think that makes it even more special. And I love your perspective on this in that you don't need training, you don't need to have a degree or anything, you just have to have the intention, the spirit to be able to be there for people. And it's such a simple concept and executed so well when you do it. What do you think people get from sitting down there next to you and just having someone who listens to them without judgment?

Orly Israel:

So there's two people that sit with me sometimes. Next to me is what you'll join me with one day, as a silent observer and you'll get to listen with me. Across from me, as a sharer, I think is... I just want to say up front, I did the table to make myself a better listener. And that divorces me from the necessity to help anybody who sits down with me because I'm helping myself. It's a personal goal. And sometimes people sit down and the things that they're going through, there's nothing anyone can say to make it better. And sometimes there are things people could say to make it better, but I don't say a lot of those things.

I like to think that if you come to sit at the table and you see me who's not specifically trained or being paid, I represent someone that is anybody, a friend or a family member. And if I can listen to you knowing what I know and you feel good or seen, then you can take that feeling and bring it back to your kitchen table or your dinner table and you can give that same feeling to others. So I really try and be a, I guess, role model of sorts and say, "Look, if I did it, I'm not doing anything special. I'm trying to show that this is something anyone could do."

Chris Do:

So in a way, okay, there's some interesting concepts here I'd like to unpack. One of the mindsets or at least your thinking or philosophy is, I'm not compelled to help them or give them advice because I'm doing this to be a better listener. So you don't feel like there's another job for you to do except for to be a good listener. And I think that's really important because I think especially in the client service space, when someone tells us a problem, we immediately get into solutions mode where we're hardwired to do that. And I often encourage people, "You have lots of solutions, make sure you have a full understanding of the problem first."

And that is more than half the battle. If you can just sit down and ask questions and be curious, allow the person to work through the problem, you empower them to find their own solutions, they feel more validated, more confident and self-assured. But rather than you just rushing into rescue people. And I think there's something inside of us that makes us feel good when we can do that, but it's a much more powerful thing when you can help others find their own way.

The second thing that you mentioned, which I think is pretty lovely, is I'm going to give you the example. It maybe not be perfect, but I'm going to listen. And when you see that, then you can model that yourself and bring that idea home. And then your idea transfers to other people and it makes a greater impact. So you impact the person who's in front of you, the sharer, but perhaps they take that away and they model that for home. And maybe they're having a difficult moment with a child or a spouse and they can be there and they can try to do what you're doing and maybe just improve their relationship and their communication by X percent. And that's a pretty cool concept, I think.

Orly Israel:

Thank you. I really have been blown away by some of the response from people who have seen the videos and write me saying, "Oh, my relationship is way better with this person or that person." And also there is a beautiful, it's one of my least favorite things to hear, but also one of my favorite things to hear is when someone sits down at the table and they share, some people share for, the average is probably 10, 15 minutes, but sometimes it goes to an hour and sometimes it's 20 seconds. But sometimes people will say, "I don't have anyone to tell this to." Or, "Thanks for listening." And not because they don't have anyone in their life, but because they have people in their life that just won't be there for them in the way they need. Which isn't really doing a lot, just being there in the way they need just means sitting and paying attention to them.

And someone has told me this incredible life story and says, "I have plenty of friends, but I can't think of anybody who would listen to me talk for more than 10 minutes at one time." And I think that just speaks to maybe society or maybe the nature of people wanting to get something out of relationships or conversations. But just to know that practicing patience and curiosity and interest is such a... I didn't do anything in these conversations besides sit there and listen. And I just think it's amazing when someone realizes, "Wow, all I have to do is let someone know I'm there for them for 20 minutes and something magical might happen."

Chris Do:

For the people who haven't seen one of your videos online, can you describe what the general structure is? I can describe it, but I'd rather hear it from you so that they have some context for what is actually happening. Because maybe they're entering this conversation like, "It sounds fascinating, but how the heck does this work and what is going on?" Describe to them the setup and what the videos look like on social media?

Orly Israel:

Sure. So I do these recaps of my Listening Table experience. And I started with table number probably 68 because I did it that many times before I filmed a second of it. And I really like to make sure that's upfront. I set up this table and I have a long shot of me setting up this table in a time-Lapse and it's just me setting up this folding table and putting my signs that say, "Here to listen. No judgment. No advice. No charge." And then you'll see people sit down and sometimes an arrow pops up that says, "This person was doing that." But it's from very far away and I give an explanation of, if someone shared something with me, sometimes I say what I want to say. In the last video I made, a kid sat down and he shared something and then all of a sudden he said he was ready to go. And I said, "Okay, that's fine if you leave." I didn't say that whole thing, I just said, "Okay."

And he was surprised that I was letting him go because he's like, "You don't want to talk more?" I said, "Yeah, you're done, right?" And so I say, "It's so fascinating, an observation I made for this video was that some people just expect you to want things from them." And then I just talk about a couple of things that happened during the video when I summarize it. If you watch my video, you'll notice you'll never see anyone's face, you'll never be able to identify anyone based on, I very rarely have a microphone because it's not trying to say, "These are people's crazy stories that I found out on the street." But it's saying, "Here's me listening to something and here's how I reacted to a situation."

And I think that, well, I made a very conscious choice because I really didn't want to be confused with someone who just goes around trying to get people on the street to tell crazy stories for views, but to show that I'm trying to learn something. And most of my videos are pretty similar, here's what happened and here's what I thought about them. And I really wish I could summarize those feelings into 90 seconds better because I think a lot about the things that happen, but that is coming soon.

Chris Do:

Okay. Maybe you're teasing us on something here. So from my perspective as the audience member watching this, everything Orly is saying is true. You don't get to know who the people are, as far as I can tell, the conversation's not recorded, it's mostly your recap. And because of the constraints of the 90-second time limit, I think for Reels, it's very fast, you speak at a very fast pace. Sometimes it's overwhelming for me to listen to. And it's like you can't even take a breath because you're trying to tell the story. And what you're doing is, I think you do something like, Listening Table 144 Recap, and then you're like, "Okay, today and this person said this and that." And it's a reflection. So the question I have for you as a person who's a listener myself is, do you take notes when people are speaking or you just recap after and you just go off with what you remember?

Orly Israel:

I am a chronic journaler and a huge part of the way that I measure my own own development is by writing about things. So after every table or during gaps in people, because sometimes it'll be 30 minutes between people sitting down or an hour, I'll just write down, "This person came and talked about this thing and here's what I wanted to say, but didn't and here's questions I wanted to ask. And here's something I did say and this is how they reacted to it." So I have very detailed notes about the experience I have and then I try to do the best I can from memory. Sometimes 10 people will come up and it'll be the whole day and then I'll go back to my notebook afterwards and be like, "Oh, I can't even remember all this." But I try and get all the memories I can.

Chris Do:

So in the moment when you're listening to the person who's sharing a story with you, you're just 100% there, you're not taking any notes?

Orly Israel:

Yeah.

Chris Do:

It's only when there's a gap and there's opportunity for you to write something down that you'll do that?

Orly Israel:

Right. I'm all in.

Chris Do:

Okay.

Orly Israel:

Otherwise I'd be betraying my own ideals.

Chris Do:

Tell me more about that. Why is taking notes betraying your own ideals?

Orly Israel:

I think that this is part of the reason I was so reluctant to record the videos in the first place is because I'm practicing a skill not initially doing a content thing. And I want people to know that I'm paying attention to them. I think it's pretty straightforward. I'm looking at them and they're talking to me. And if I'm writing stuff down, I don't know, I think... Sometimes I'll do it if I have a notebook on the table and they say something really interesting and I'm just like, "Hey, I have to write this down." I like to be reflective in my own moments and it's hard for me to have these kinds of thoughts when someone's talking to me, otherwise I can't listen to myself think or listen to the other person.

Chris Do:

I see. So I guess to each person their own because for me, when you're speaking, sometimes I doodle when I'm interviewing people because doodling is a way for me to concentrate. And there's some studies that show that the picture's not necessarily related to the stories that are being told, but they calm the mind. So for you, writing or doing something else distracts you from being able to think about what the person's saying or thinking about your own thoughts while they're saying it. Is that right?

Orly Israel:

I am a critical doodler. I mean, that was my nickname in elementary schools, my teachers would call me The Doodler because I just would always draw on stuff and always be doing geometric patterns. When I'm sitting at the table, I have this rule of tape and I just slowly rotate it around my hand so that I can have a physical thing going on. But writing for me is an involved process where when I do it, I like to really think about it. And sometimes I'm pissed at myself for missing something where someone says something incredible and I'm like, "Oh, I wish I recorded that. I wish I wrote this down. Oh my gosh, this thing was not only profound, but it would get millions of views if I had this person say this thing." And when I think about that, I just remember that I started this to learn how to do one thing and I try and stay true to that. And it's okay if I miss these things because the moment was there that I had and I was actually there in person.

Chris Do:

But were you hinting at perhaps something else in the future that might allow you to share some of those conversations?

Orly Israel:

I was hinting at longer recaps on YouTube. I really take care to make these conversations private. It's impossible to test this because you can't ever have the same conversation twice. And every time I've brought a microphone out, nobody seems to care about it. People are just like, "Fine, whatever." People will talk into the microphone just fine. So I think that there may be a world where I am able to share these conversations, some of the ones I might have, if it's coming across that the point of this is to show me demonstrating good listening rather than a, "Listen to what this person's talking about, it's crazy."

Because I want to keep true to the intentions of why I set out to do this. And it was never to share other people's stories in a way that... If you're looking for a story of someone who lost a relative, you've got several people in your life that you can ask that story. I like to say, "These stories exist in your life from people you know." And I would much rather motivate people to ask the people they have in their lives these questions than listen to strangers talk about whatever.

Chris Do:

I think your intention is to practice on listening and not necessary storytelling. So those are two different goals. But I can also see a moment in time when you reflect but are able to share a snippet of a powerful story, not from the point of view, "Look how crazy and demented people are," but, "This was such a powerful voice and a story that needed to be told." And of course, with the person's consent and permission and approval that you're able to share it because there's something, when you hear someone's story from their voice and their point of view, that hits so hard.

You're like, "Okay, so here this person poured into me, they said this and they needed this one moment." And then you hear a little bit of their voice, it really just paints that picture. But I think that's a different product or a different idea perhaps for someone else to do. But I just still enjoy this concept of yours, which is just, I just want to practice listening. In this world of social media, and I'm part of it, we're always broadcasting things to the world and so we're focused a lot on communication and not so much on listening. And I think listening is the other half to the communication part, so that's why you're so intriguing to me.

Orly Israel:

Thank you. That means a lot. I think that is a, I'll call it a game, which is just the content creation business and what it is. And I think that I have to play to win. So I'm not unwilling to try different things, bring microphones, and I've brought a camera before and shot people. And I'll try it, I think that things can surprise you. And if someone's consenting to telling a story, sure, I'm in. I'm very open to trying different things and just doing it in a way that is not too much of a production. I set up the table the first several times where I would just bring the table and now I bring a camera and a microphone. And while it's fine, I'm very adept to doing what that entails.

I'm doing this project with foster youth coming up soon where we're going to have five to 10 foster kids come up and talk about their experience in the foster system or whatever they want to talk about. Because the only question I really ask is, "What do you want to talk about?" If they don't want to talk about it, they can. I'm going to record the whole thing and hopefully that there will be a story that resonates with people and spreads awareness of the life in the foster system. And I understand that filming that can provide a lot of value to the organization I'm working with and for my audience. So I hope and look forward to that being... So that makes me uncomfortable because I don't know exactly how to film it in a way that I agree with, but figuring that out, I'm excited to do

Stewart Schuster:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do:

I wanted to come back to something about something you said at the beginning of our conversation about where the idea came from. But you said you'd volunteer and there was a prison program, something called Freedom to Choose or something like that?

Stewart Schuster:

Yes.

Chris Do:

Okay. Tell me a little bit more about this program because I've not heard about it and what is happening with you and prisoners and what is it that you're doing for them?

Orly Israel:

So Freedom to Choose is the most incredible program I've ever heard of and I just admire the people who started it so much. It is a program that does communication exercises and conversation facilitation for people in prison. And so you train as a volunteer in this very simple style of communication they have. It's just a conversation, every week you'll go into a prison or once a month and there's a worksheet, it's one page and it says, "Today we're going to be talking about triggers or we're going to be talking about bad decisions." And there's seven questions and it'll be like, "What was a bad decision you made? What led you to cause this? What would something else you could do be?" And then although it goes to next time, what can you do differently if this happens? And it was incredibly simple, this process.

And so I did this before the pandemic started because once the pandemic started, you couldn't go to prisons anymore. But I would find myself in a big lunchroom or rec room. And this program in all the prisons that it's in is the most popular extracurricular activity that there is. The line to take this thing is people get their dockets, which they use to sign up for classes or whatever and they sprint to the signup sheet. I mean, this is as cool as it gets. And so many volunteers are people who came out of prisons and said, "This changed my life. I want to get back into it." And so the way they format it is the people come to the front of the room and explain a little bit about, "Today we're talking about triggers." And that you sit in groups of three people. Usually it's one volunteer and two participants.

And one person will be the sharer, one person will be the facilitator and one person will be the silent observer or the neutral observer. And you'll just practice saying, "Okay, the first question is this." And then as the person who's volunteering, you always go first because if you don't show up emotionally, if you don't go deep, no one's going to go deep with you. And so I'll find myself talking about triggers and answer the questions. And one of the people who are in prison is asking me these questions and reflecting to me. And this happens in a very time structured way. So you have, I think, seven or eight minutes, depending on how long you have, they ring a bell, you have a couple of minutes to close down. And then everyone shares something about what they heard or what they felt like. And then the science observer will say something about what they learned through the experience. And then you rotate. So everyone over the course of an hour gets to share, gets to be heard and gets to listen.

Chris Do:

Yeah. Okay. There's a couple of things that you've done in the video that I saw where you swap positions. You're like, "Well, I decided to have the person switch roles." Tell me what brings that on and what is the purpose of that?

Orly Israel:

Every once in a while, someone who's smart will come up to me and want to have some fun and they'll say, "I'll listen to you today." And I always have something to talk about. We could have this podcast for four hours and I could freestyle the whole thing and we would be able to just keep going. And so whenever someone asks if they can listen to me, I've got something to talk about. And so this kid comes up and he says, blah, blah, blah and then he says, "What about you? Do you want to talk about something?" So I say, "Sure." But I make sure we switch positions because it's symbolic to me that he's in the listener's seat. If someone gives me a chance to talk, I'll take it almost every time. So that kid gave me a chance to talk and in the video, people start coming up, which always happens in popular areas and giving him props for doing it, "Oh, I love the table."

And this kid just rolled with it and he is like, "Thanks. Working on being a bear listener. It's really cool. I love it." And that was really cool for me to just be there and say, "Well, people are asking, he's answering. Great." And he's getting to feel good about being appreciated for being a good listener, which means he gets to go home feeling like listening is something that feels good. And he also got to make friends, which was in insane. This specific video, this kid at the beginning of the table, he shares how he is struggling to make friends. And then these kids come over and they start talking and the kids stay for an hour.

And at this point, we're just having a conversation. Kids are telling stories, I'm telling stories, the guidelines are there, but you just play it as it comes. And all of a sudden we're just having a conversation and the kids say, "We're going to go watch a movie." And this guy goes, "Can I come with you?" And they say, "Yes." And they sent me a message several months later saying, "We're still hanging out." And so it was just incredible sometimes. Only twice has something magical started and finished at table where someone expresses something and that happens. And so it was really awesome that that happened.

Chris Do:

I saw that video. It's a good video.

Orly Israel:

Thank you.

Chris Do:

And it's neat that somebody came up and said, "I have a problem making friends, switch roles." Then he embraces it and other kids and then they go off and go watch a movie together. It's almost like a scripted thing where it bookends so beautifully. And it's neat that you were able to witness that at least one time, if not more.

Orly Israel:

There was another time it happened, which was crazy. That one was way before I started filming it. And that one was entirely in a different language, which was amazing. I did a table in Israel because I haven't missed a week and I was in Israel, so I got these cardboard signs just out of a ripped a box apart, set up this thing and I had a friend of mine be a translator. And some person comes up and basically says, "There's this guy I really like and I don't know how to tell him. And he's right over there."

And this is all in Hebrew. I don't say a thing because my friend's translating every once in a while and just telling. And this person, probably in her late fifties or sixties and she was this older woman and we were at this marketplace. And at first she says she doesn't want to talk and my friend says, "You don't have to talk. That's okay. We're here to listen anyways if you want to." And then a couple of minutes go by and she says she's super depressed. And that's it. And then a couple more minutes go by and she says she's depressed because she's in love with this man who's selling vegetables 30 feet away, just slaying vegetables off the cart.

Chris Do:

I see. So she comes to the market to see him every day, but doesn't have the courage to say something. And there's this opportune moment when you guys are there that she thinks, maybe this is the moment and you guys facilitate that happening. Do you think about the way you dress or the way you appear to make the table as inviting and non-intimidating as possible or do you just roll up with whatever you have?

Orly Israel:

I usually just roll up with whatever I have. But I now have this sweater that says Listening Sweater on it that I made as a trial to make merchandise. So maybe I'll wear that if it's not too warm. But usually it's just whatever.

Chris Do:

So you mentioned, I think in some of the videos that you teach or talk about communication. Outside of the Listening Table as your project, what are you doing professionally with this concept?

Orly Israel:

I'm trying to figure out what the product is because I'd like to do something professionally. I'd like to be able to afford rent and et cetera, what comes with having any money. I have a book that I've been writing for a while because I write all these blog posts about my table and at this point I have over 150 or 160 pages of material of my own reflections. I train people how to do their own listening tables for free online. I've just started putting these videos on YouTube because I realized people shouldn't have to be available on my schedule when I do my Sunday afternoon classes, they should just be able to get this whenever they want to. So in trying to make it as accessible as possible, I'm not exactly sure how to make myself get any money from it. I think I'd like to do communication coaching if I can get people to pay me to help personally get them through obstacles they have or speaking at schools.

I've got some universities in the works and I've got a little 3D printed listening table that I'm prototyping right now to see if I can make a little bit of merchandise, but I have no idea what I'm doing professionally. Even though I know that's a bad answer, I've met with a bunch of people who've asked my business plan and I said, "I don't know my business plan." And I just had this whole driving to... Oh, I drove my Listening Table from here to New York and back, setting up all across the country. I just got back and I learned a lot about how listening tables are good for big cities and bad for small towns.

And it just reinforced the principle that the real listening table is not some guy sitting out in public, but it's you with your family and your friends at your cafeteria table or your house. So I met with people who wanted to help me and they're like, "What's your business plan?" I said, "I don't know what my business plan is." And on this podcast, this is the last time I'll say that because that's not an acceptable answer for anyone who's serious about something. But I have no idea.

Chris Do:

But in context, I think you said you started the Listening Table in November of last year?

Orly Israel:

It's been 18 months since I started and then I started posting on social media in November of 2022.

Chris Do:

I see. So in a very short amount of time, you've got a couple of hundred thousand followers on Instagram. So you're doing something right, you're hitting a nerve and you found a unique format. I wasn't asking that question to judge or anything because I think there's an opportunity for you. When I talk to young people, I say, "You just master a skill first before you start thinking about making media or monetization." And people tend to focus too much on monetization and so they lose the whole why of what they're doing. And I think it's important to know that and to develop some skill.

I also just want to remind people who are listening to this that I think you said that you did 60 tables before you even started recording or even thinking about doing anything just because you wanted to practice the craft and work through the problem. And I think that's great. So you're actually moving very fast in my opinion. And I think the opportunity for you is to go and share an 18-minute style TED Talk and go on the speaking circuit and say what you've learned about having 2,000 listening tables or whatever the number's going to be and the patterns that you have observed and how transformative listening can be. And it's one of the easiest things to learn how to do, but one of the most difficult things to master.

Orly Israel:

Right. Well, you would know a lot about what you're talking about. So I'm going to clip that and send it to all these people who want to think about having me as a speaker because that'd be really cool.

Chris Do:

I think if you could do that, I think it would start to package you and then probably there will be other opportunities for you. So I want to end it on this. Here's the big question I have for you is how have you been transformed by this whole process?

Orly Israel:

This is such a fun question. I'm going to answer it to you, but I really want to just highlight something you just said that listening is difficult to master, but easy to practice. It is the easiest thing you could possibly practice. You get so many chances to practice listening every day. And if you fail, it's okay, you can try again in the same conversation with the same person or the next day. It is so easy to practice, difficult to master, but I don't even know what mastery is. Someone told me that if you think you're a good listener, if you think you're a great listener, that means you have a great opportunity to start learning again. So I just want to appreciate you saying how easy it is to practice.

How has this changed me as a person? It's humbled me a lot. Even though I'm very talkative, I've been a lot less talkative in certain environments. I really know the difference between when I want to say something and when I want to be heard, which is I think in this world, everyone wants to be heard, to be liked, to be appreciated online. So people want to be heard before they have something to say and I think I'm really... Even if it's just talking about the Ted Lasso episode that was on yesterday, it's a different way you give your opinion on things. I was in a relationship for a while of doing this table and we didn't have a single fight. We had differences in very strong feelings about things, but never a fight. I really was proud of how I haven't argued with anyone really this whole time. I mean, since I started doing this. I've also really learned about certain types of self-control.

I mean, I'll give one really specific example, just to conclude it. I talked about my brothers at the beginning. I was a bit of a violent older brother and I gave most of that violence to my middle brother. And we eventually started getting along better, it helped a lot when I got to be a better communicator. And our last time we hung out in New York City was the best time we've ever spent together, which was amazing, really transformed. But my youngest brother, he has the potential to be annoyed with me a lot when I'm not saying mean things. Because I rarely say mean things, I'm pretty good at saying a lot of things without saying mean things. If I just say unusual things, so I love having fun with conversations, he has a short patience for it. And I always ignored him being annoyed because I wasn't trying to annoy him. I was saying, "I'm just having fun. We're just having a good time. You're just annoyed about this, but that's okay because I'm not trying to annoy you."

Versus if you hurt someone, they get hurt. But if you're just doing whatever you want and someone gets annoyed by it, and at some point it was like a bolt of lightning where I realized, even if I'm not trying to bother him, I am bothering him. And I in control of what I say and I have full grasp of the English language. I can get along with him and have fun without annoying him. And that was a transcendent moment for me where I realized I can have a good relationship with him and have fun, it just requires a little bit of work on my part. But that's creativity and I've got a lot of creativity. So that was really transformational. And now I have great relationships with all my siblings and all my family and parents and I have not looked back. I'm very proud of that and I still have to practice that all the time and I botch it so many times, but I know I'm capable of it and so I'm striving towards it every day.

Chris Do:

That's wonderful. So the benefit for you, what I heard, was as you practice the craft of listening, it's humbled to you, it's helped to remove a lot of conflict in your life because maybe you've learned how to be a better listener and maybe practice deeper empathy and just less judgment, no advice giving as the table has said and has helped you to exercise a lot greater self-control. And maybe you just got a little bit wiser in the whole thing and just are stepping back and saying, "Even though I could choose to act in a very specific way and I would be innocent by my own judgment, but maybe I could do more. Maybe I can be a little bit more creative as to how I look at this so that everybody can get what they want and I don't have to aggravate people in my life." And it's a beautiful thing you just shared.

Orly Israel:

Thank you. I feel so heard by you. You're an incredible listener.

Chris Do:

Well, thank you.

Orly Israel:

I really love how you summarized that so beautifully. It's good.

Chris Do:

Well, it's one of these moments where I think where we see each other. We, in air quotes, "See each other," where just the concept and it doesn't usually happen that often to me when I'm scrolling through Instagram and I see something in my feed randomly that I then pursue and follow and I'm like, "Wait a minute. I need to find out more about this young man and what he's doing because it's such an interesting concept that I think needs to be shared with more people." So thanks for doing this. And I think also as a listener, and you've mentioned this, it's also nice that we be heard and we have stories to tell so that it's not just all about us receiving, but it's also giving back into the world. So I had suspected, and I'm glad that it was confirmed today, that as I was able to ask the question with you, and you're just happy to share your experiences, your observations and what you've learned, so I just wanted to give you that opportunity as well.

Orly Israel:

Well, I really appreciate it and I cannot wait to have you join me in my Listening Table where I get to hear about you and maybe I end up recording it and sharing it, maybe I just get to enjoy for myself. Who knows? But I'm very excited for that. I'm just honored to be here and so grateful that you saw what I made and responded to it and it really was awesome because I've looked up to you for a long time.

Chris Do:

Well, thank you so much.

Orly Israel:

My name is Orly Nathan Israel and you are listening to The Futur.

Stewart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Stewart Schuster. Thank you to Anthony Barro for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music.

If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to Thefutur.com/heychris and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit Thefutur.com. You'll find video courses, digital products and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.

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