Loren Greiff:

It's so tempting, I know, for people to just rush into putting together their resume, because that's more landline thinking and that's what we've all been taught to do. But so much of what is happening in that search isn't about what you've done, that's history. It's about what you want to do going forward, the future, and what that person also is looking for you to do in the future of their organization or their business.

Chris Do:

Joining me today is Loren Greiff. She's a friend and a person I've met in real life a couple of times, and I'm just thrilled to have her on our podcast today. It's a little bit different today, because she does something very specific and you're going to stick around for that. So Loren, for people who don't know who you are, can you please introduce yourself and just give us a little bit of your backstory?

Loren Greiff:

Sure thing. My name is Loren Greiff, and I'd like to say that I'm addicted to more. When I say more, what I'm talking about is more magic, more motivation, more movement, more miracles, more manifesting, and mostly more meaning and meaningful relationships.

I've been playing around with my two word brand, and I've decided that I'm a mirth-quake. I like to shake things up and I like to bring a lot of joy, and that's really what I'm all about and why I love doing what I do as the founder of Portfolio Rocket, a career consultancy that helps executives achieve more faster.

So I'm also the founder of Portfolio Rocket, a career consultancy that works with executives and C-suiters to help them achieve more faster.

Chris Do:

Perfect. Let's get into that episode.

Loren Greiff:

This podcast is designed for networking. And the reason why we're talking about networking is because I believe that it's the broccoli of business. And what I mean by that is we all know it's good for us, and so few of us really want to eat it or even digest it, because it comes with just such an unfriendly flavor. And that flavor has been passed down over time, that we think that it should be this way, and this way is usually something smarmy, a transaction. Most people just are pushing back on networking.

And I know for myself that messaging came in, and I thought that it was an opportunity to use people, and so we resist it because we don't want to be that person. We've all heard about giving to get, and how it has to be a give and take. But I think that the biggest piece here is that opportunities are attached to people.

They're not attached to things, regardless of the portfolio, the resume, the LinkedIn profile, there's somebody and some opportunity that lives behind that. And I think that it's easy to put so much emphasis on this thing and that that's going to be the catalyst or that's going to be how it's going to happen. But I've seen it time, and time, and time again. You could literally backflip and leapfrog over so much red tape by just having that relationship.

And we all know also that the people that do it well are really successful. People that have and build relationships, put that at one of their highest values. And we've talked about personal capital. I love Vanessa Van Edwards, Science of People where she talks about building charisma and the social cues that we can either see or choose to ignore. But on many levels, networking is both an art and a science.

And I wanted to talk about this, primarily because the audience that you serve, and so much of what I know about being in the world of creatives and entrepreneurship is oftentimes those people just want to be heads down and do the work. "Don't bother me. I'm thinking. I'm creating. I'm putting something together that is going to change the world." But sometimes, we don't know because they're the best kept secret. And I wanted the opportunity to not only share tips and tricks, but primarily to dispel the myth that you have to be a certain extrovert, or introverts get a hall pass, or there are some secret sauce attached to it. I think it just really boils down to the three pieces that I shared, that it's okay, not everybody loves broccoli, but you can learn to love it.

And separately, that there are opportunities that you can't even see or imagine that are behind. I mean, everyone has a minimum of 150 social media connections, a minimum. You don't know all those people. If you're in a room of more than just yourself, now you have an exponential amount of opportunities.

And then lastly, that the people that do it well are moving and shaking, and there's an opportunity for everyone to even take away one or two of these things and to put them together and start seeing differences. Whether it be in their business, whether it be helping somebody else with their business, or whether it is to build a future for whatever is next.

Chris Do:

Why is networking so important to you? Why are you so passionate about this?

Loren Greiff:

I'm passionate, because I've been able to use it as a superpower. I didn't have the greatest academic standing. I wasn't necessarily the brightest bulb in the pack. I mean, I wasn't dumb, but I certainly didn't have the academic accolades that were part of the immense amount of movement, especially out of college. "Let me just select you because of your pedigree, or you went here, or you have this certification." And that is in many cases, and was even while I was on the recruiting side, an instant sign that you had what it took. You had leadership capabilities, you had intellect, you had the ability to manage.

And what has been found out over time is that, yeah, sure, sometimes those things can get you in the door and they're very powerful. But without the relationships that are attached to it, it's paper. And so many people I think are intimidated by this person who has these accolades, this kind of outward version of what it means to either be successful or what it means to be able to climb to where it is that you want to go, by virtue of something else.

And that has not been my story, and that's certainly not the story of a lot of the people that I work with who are very, very smart, but feel like there is still something lacking. And networking is the trampoline that allows them to get to where they want to go faster.

And so I get really passionate about it, also because AI can't replace it. And as much as I love AI and I love innovation, you're not going to be able to replace the feeling that you have when you meet somebody and hug them, or hear their voice on the phone, or be able to remember them and keep them top of mind, and say to yourself, "Wow, this person, they don't have all the qualifications, but you know what? that's the person that I know is going to be instrumental in leading my business."

Chris Do:

Let's go back to a couple things and get more specific here. When you talk about you didn't have the best academic track record, what does that even mean? Can you get a little bit more specific here?

Loren Greiff:

Sure. So I grew up outside of Boston, and one of the things about growing up in Boston is you and your degree, they're besties, they're inextricably linked. You and your degree are how people identify you. So did you go to Harvard? Did you graduate from Dana Hall? So there's a lot of prestige attached to your academic standing, which I did not have.

And so my dad, who was a doctor by profession, also specialized in an area that he created, which was family businesses. So he was a psychiatrist, and he knew that there were a lot of problems in family businesses. So he created his own strain of course, and introduced a course to Harvard Business School.

And so here I was not the greatest of students, and pretty much a couple times a week I'd go pick him up at the Harvard campus, and that's where he wanted me to go. And all these prepsters running around with our notebooks and sinking in my stomach going, "That's all great, but I'm not going to be able to pull this off."

So I felt like an academic disappointment most of the time and realized very quickly that I was going to have to compensate in other areas, because I was not a great standardized test taker. I was a strong writer, but I was not that person that could whip out the math problems. And I always felt like just this enormous amount of pressure to produce and to be that top student, but that didn't happen.

Chris Do:

When you say you were a disappointment, academic disappointment, is this something you imagined or is this real?

Loren Greiff:

I think it's pretty real. I mean, we grew up in a very strict household. And when it was time to apply to colleges, my guidance counselor told me to apply to a certain tier of schools, and my dad totally overwrote it. And he was like, "Oh, no, no, no, this is where you should go. And when you get rejected, thank them. Thank them for making you stronger." Looking back, I think that was kind of cruel. But that being said, I really felt like an academic disappointment.

These days, it's not really that important. It really isn't. And I don't feel any level of shame today. I feel that sometimes, those experiences can lead to being more street smart, or having more EQ, or having other areas of intelligence that oftentimes don't get the same amount of credo as having those degrees.

Chris Do:

Yeah. I mean, I don't know what it's like to grow up under the guidance or the shadow of a Harvard Business School professor wanting me to go there, and there's plenty of opportunity exposure. I can't imagine what that must have felt like for you. But did your dad say to you while you were growing up, even before you finished high school, that education is the way I need you to be academically at the top of your class, and to push you and say, "Loren, these grades or these test scores are not going to cut it"?

Loren Greiff:

It was understood, and he really didn't have to say that because there was so much emphasis on Harvard and Ivy Leagues. And we started hearing those discussions when we were very, very, very, very young, and understanding things that probably kids shouldn't really understand as far as, "And this and this, and you need this kind of score to get into this kind of score." So it was a lot of that pressure to deliver.

Chris Do:

Did you go to college prep high school?

Loren Greiff:

No, I didn't go to a college prep high school. I went to Skidmore College, which is an artsy school up in Saratoga Springs, and I loved it there because I was amongst my crazy artsy people, and so it worked out.

Chris Do:

Okay. What school did you wind up going to and what did you study?

Loren Greiff:

Yeah, so I went to Skidmore College. I went to Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs. Ended up, I was double major with English business. And there is the kind of secret sauce or winning formula that I figured out for myself, that I needed to be able to combine something that was super creative and merge it with something that also had the ability to move in the way... I mean, business had been part of our conversations ever since I had been a kid, but I wanted to be able to be in the business of creativity, which is truthfully how I found you.

Chris Do:

Okay. So did you say double major?

Loren Greiff:

Mm-hmm.

Chris Do:

So the academic disappointment did have some drive and wanting to do more than what's just the minimum, clearly. Those are two interesting, when I say interesting, unexpected majors to go after, English and business as far as I can tell. So what was it like for you once you went to college, you found your people, you get to choose your own destiny at this point? Were you finally in a place where you're like, "This feels right for me"?

Loren Greiff:

I was rocking and rolling. I mean, literally like the day I graduated, I was out the door and into New York City. I was hell bent and determined that I was going into advertising. Because that in my mind was the perfect combination between creativity and business. It was like, "This is made for me."

Chris Do:

What aspect of advertising? Copywriting?

Loren Greiff:

No, I was an account person. I was on the account side. I was the suit that they said wasn't a suit, which I always loved. I wanted to eat that up.

Chris Do:

Yeah. Okay. So you made your way into account management?

Loren Greiff:

Mm-hmm.

Chris Do:

Okay. Where'd you start and how was that for you?

Loren Greiff:

So I'll tell you where I ended up, because a lot of those smaller agencies are pretty much non-existent anymore. I went from Hill Holliday to a mid-size agency, and eventually landed at J. Walter Thompson, which is a huge... Now it's Wunderman Thompson. But at the time, I think it was the second-largest agency in the world.

And I worked on a lot of the businesses related to CPG, very common, and also specialized in a lot of the confection business owned by Chesebrough Ponds, which also is a skincare line, but many of their products are chocolate. And so Cadbury being their chocolate hallmark brand became my baby, and I had the opportunity to work on that for many years, and traveled to London, and served clients there, and just thought it was the cat's meow. I thought it was the greatest thing on earth.

Chris Do:

For the lay person who doesn't really understand how agencies are structured, can you give us the broad overview about the players that matter within one business unit?

Loren Greiff:

Sure. So the account person is essentially the center of the spoke, and that person is probably today the ultimate project manager. That person is there to liaise with the client, but also to ensure that the creative work is on strategy and make sure that people are on time, on budget.

And back in the day, they didn't have that many layers that they have now in terms of being able to go through a lot of the necessary digital aspects of measuring the ROI of advertising campaigns. That has been part of the evolution of the industry.

So being a suit and not a suit was a real advantage to me, because I could get... This is where the relationship came in, is that all of the relationships that I had in advertising were not built on, "Let's get this done," although that was understood. It was more like help me understand, and asking a lot of questions about what may be part of the thinking process, where they were maybe stuck, how I could help facilitate additional information if that was needed, how I could in some cases push the timetable to give them more time. And so those were essentially my internal clients, all of the creatives.

And I'm going to tell this very quick story because I think it's hilarious. There was a guy, and I'll never forget it. There's all kinds of unwritten rules that happen in the world of advertising agencies. And back in the day, this guy's rule was, "Do not knock on my office, do not make appointments before 11:00 because that's my Cap'n Crunch time. And I just need you to know that this is how it's gone down. And when I'm done with my Crunch Berries, I'll let you know." And to me, that was a wonderful boundary. I thought that that was brilliant, that you could get away with that kind of stuff in the advertising world. And there's plenty of stories that people have. And if you've ever watched an episode of Mad Men, you know that it's not exactly process and procedures the way that it is in many other corporate environments.

Chris Do:

When you said Cap'n Crunch time, was that literally for him to eat breakfast?

Loren Greiff:

Hell yeah.

Chris Do:

Oh, okay. I thought, it was like, "This is my time to think."

Loren Greiff:

Oh, no, no, no, no. You could hear him out the door. This guy had maybe 10, 12 boxes all lined up, so that's what he did. He had a refrigerator with his milk, a big cereal bowl, and you'd just hear him just inhaling, hoovering it in.

Chris Do:

Wow, okay. I did work for an ad agency for a brief stint, so I kind of know a little bit about it, but this is long after the Mad Men era where anything goes and there's some atrocious behavior that happens there, the marginalizing of certain kinds of people. But there were some brilliant moments. And I know it's fiction, but it feels very, very well researched, and the kinds of shenanigans they pulled off, and the way that they were to bully the client in many of the episodes with Don Draper, it's like, wow, I sometimes long for some of those aspects where, "You know what? We're going to tell you what to do, and you just buy or you don't buy, and we're out the door." Now it becomes a whole big process, like, "The client said this and now we have to make these changes because they know best," or something, right?

Loren Greiff:

Yeah, it's always a bit of a push-pull, and clients want to go bigger, and creators ultimately have a different idea.

Chris Do:

Yeah, bigger price point, just bigger, bigger everything that we don't want to do, but has to be done, because at the end of the day, there's a conversion that they're paying attention to. Right?

Loren Greiff:

Of course.

Chris Do:

Okay. So take me to the next departure or point in your timeline where, what's the next big change for you? So you're inside these agencies, you're doing your thing. When does it change for you?

Loren Greiff:

Changes when I have kids. And I was the first woman at J. Walter Thompson, anyway, to have any kind of flexibility with their work life. And I knew that that was very short-lived, because that isn't the kind of industry that is going to facilitate working parents. This is not for people who want to be able to necessarily stay home, be a mom for even a brief period of time.

So for about a year, I did the part-time thing, and it worked out pretty well. And then we left New York City to go have a different kind of life and have more family time, and moved to Chicago.

And so at that point, I ended up going in-house. And that was a rude awakening. Sorry, never again. That cubicle life, the waiting in line at the parking lot, the cafeterias, it rubbed me the wrong way. I'd just come from too much freedom and creativity to be able to stuff myself into one of those boxes.

And so during that time, my ex-husband and I, we went through a divorce, and I became a single mom. And so that was when I knew, hey, even though I don't like it here and I don't want to contort, and I don't want to squish myself into some box, I got to do what I got to do. And so I stayed there until I just couldn't anymore.

Chris Do:

Yeah. What year was this that you took time off, not time off, but you took a break from agency life to start your family?

Loren Greiff:

So this is in the early '90s.

Chris Do:

Early '90s. Okay. I'm just doing the math right now, trying to figure out ages and everything, but that's cool. So you left agency, you moved to Chicago. Why'd you move from New York to Chicago? Why couldn't you get that in New York?

Loren Greiff:

Well, the deal was we would move to the burbs of Chicago, and this whole work till 11:00 at night and have somebody else take care of your kids was not something that we wanted to do. And so I agreed to leave and try on... I mean, that's really what I was doing is I was trying on suburban life, and it didn't fit at all. But I did it, and it was the right thing for my kids, and they know that. And as soon as they were out of high school, I was like, "See ya," and went back downtown.

Chris Do:

Okay. Okay. So when you said you went in-house, I don't understand that. What is in-house? Because I thought you were in-house before.

Loren Greiff:

No, I was in agency, client being the "house."

Chris Do:

I see. You went client side.

Loren Greiff:

I went client side. I went client side. I ended up working for Discover Card, which at the time was owned by Morgan Stanley. And unlike the world of Cap'n Crunch or player pianos in the office space, these guys were measuring your every second. I mean, even when you went to the bathroom. They were watching, they had time. It was productivity, turn, burn, make this happen. And like I said, I learned so much, because at the time I was really getting deep into the e-commerce world and understanding a lot about how things work from a secure side of a website to a non-secure, and building out content. But it was short lived. I mean, it was just not my thing.

Chris Do:

How many years was that that you were in-house client side?

Loren Greiff:

About two years.

Chris Do:

Not long at all. No. So like '90-ish to-

Loren Greiff:

'92, yeah.

Chris Do:

Okay. Because I'm thinking when I'm hearing your story, I worked in advertising, I ran a production company, that there was probably an opportunity for our paths to cross, but not based on this timeline so far.

Loren Greiff:

No.

Chris Do:

Okay. So you're done with in-house, what are you doing now?

Loren Greiff:

Now I'm doing what I refer to as the Queen theme, Another One Bites the Dust, and I'm moving from place to place to place, and I'm really trying to figure out how I can juggle now two kids and just do something that I like. I'm not even looking for love right now. Something I like, pays the bills, do the thing.

And I did that for a while. I mean, I literally had that theme in my head, Another One Bites the Dust, and it just felt like it was never going to end. Like when you're on one of those dirt roads and the car just keeps bumping around, I had no seatbelt. I was just bouncing around everywhere where I could go.

And I did what was right for my family and I have no regrets about it, but it left me feeling sad and empty because I knew that there was a lot that I wanted to do. I just didn't know what.

Chris Do:

Is this this time when you're raising two kids on your own, jumping from job to job, not finding fulfillment?

Loren Greiff:

Correct.

Chris Do:

I have to ask this question because, is your paycheck taking a hit?

Loren Greiff:

Oh, unbelievably. I mean, there's hardly any food in the fridge. And what we do have is going for mortgage, and kids' classes, and all of that. So when I hear people that I work with tell me about their personal situations, I understand deeply how much their career is so much more than the word itself, that it represents a lifeline to their self-respect and their dignity. It allows them an opportunity even to get away from their kids, and stimulate their brain and their mind, and feel whole even for a short period of time. And then if they do it well and they're able to navigate through the crazy broken system, then they can actually get back on their feet and do really, really well, and have that skip in their step that takes them from Monday all the way through the week. And that's a glorious thing. That's one of the best highs that there is.

Chris Do:

Okay. So you're going through this process of finding yourself, finding the right fit. Where do you land ultimately where you're like, "This is it, I got something. I'm on the right path again"?

Loren Greiff:

So this is where the relationships really come in, because I get a call randomly one day from a friend of mine, and he says, "You're going to think I'm nuts, but there is this opening at this staffing firm, and they specialize in creatives." And I have this idea that you would make a great recruiter. And I said, "Michael, just so you know, I've never recruited a day in my life." And he's like, "Don't worry about that."

And so I went down there and I interviewed, and I got the job right away. And that was some of the best days and the best times that I ever had, because I had already had such a love and clarity for this type of person and what lit them up. And I also could in many ways understand, "Okay, so I can see what the client can't necessarily see," because I'm going through at the time, maybe like 1,000 portfolios a week, and I'm cherry-picking them out, and I'm placing people left and right. I'm literally at an 85% placement rate. And I am like, "Wow, man, I got something that really is my sweet spot."

And I felt so good about that because it was innate. It was part of that icky guy, what you do, what you love to do. And just that feeling that, "Hey, I'm good at this, and I like it, and I'm helping people, and I'm making money. This is awesome." And I was just psyched, and was just plucked from one place to another to another, and spent a good 10, 12 years in various elevations of the whole staffing and creative industry, and then expanded to other verticals.

Chris Do:

So ultimately, what year is it when you say, "Okay, I'm doing the next thing again"?

Loren Greiff:

So the next big move out of that industry was in 2019.

Chris Do:

Okay. So that takes us up to kind of recent history now. So you do that for quite a bit. You find fulfillment. I have to imagine you're also making a ton of money.

Loren Greiff:

I'm not doing so bad. I mean I'm not loaded, but I'm definitely able to pay the bills, and able to support my kids, and feeling like I've got some crackers and cheese, and they're all good.

Chris Do:

So the professional, respectable way to describe what you do as a recruiter, on our side, we call them headhunters because we need people. And I was shocked to find out how much recruiters get paid. I think it's 25 or 20% of the person's first year salary, right?

Loren Greiff:

33.3. So if you are working as a headhunter and recruiter... And there is some nuance here. So headhunters are usually at retained firms, which means that the firm itself has an exclusive on that placement. Recruiters are the maybe lesser cousins. And those people are typically at staffing firms, where those opportunities are not exclusive. And they're oftentimes freelance or independent business owners. So they're taking projects. They're not necessarily staying as a full-time role, although there is also contract to hire. But for the most part, some are more transactional or shorter term, and others, you're going to be there for however long you're going to be there.

Chris Do:

What part of that money do you get? Or do you even get part of that 33.3?

Loren Greiff:

So you get a base compensation, and then you are bonused per placement. And the way to increase that variable is by tonnage. So you are incentivized to place as many people, the way that you would think about in a restaurant, turn as many tables as you possibly can within any given period of time. So you might be working on, I know I was 15 different open roles at any one time. The faster you are able to source the candidates and then get them into, this is lingo now, butt in seat, you're done. And then you move on to the next, to the next.

Chris Do:

Give us an idea. If we're talking 2010, what is a normal base salary? What's the bonus per placement?

Loren Greiff:

So I'll just put it all together. So when I left in 2019, my base was approximately 125K. And then with placements, depending on where they met within the range of their compensation, because that 33.3 is obviously based off of up to 175 kind of thing.

Chris Do:

And you said you are kind of born to do this, that it happens to overlap in so many things, that we try to find what it is that we're good at, what we love, what pays well, and what is service to others. And when we do, it's pretty magical. It's a wonderful feeling and you hit your sweet spot.

But the question for you is, what was it about you that got you that such high placement rate of 80, 85%? What was it about you? What could you see in people or in companies that you're like, "That person needs to be there"?

Loren Greiff:

There's two things in particular that are your telltale sign that this person is a good hire for your client. The simplest thing is their integrity. And what I mean by that is, are they delivering their deliverables when they say they're going to deliver them?

So if you are working with a recruiter or a headhunter, and you are late on whatever materials you have agreed to provide to them, not a good sign. That just erodes that trust over, and over, and over again.

And it's not just the deliverable. It's got to be at a very high quality, because there is so much junk out there. So my pet peeve is, please do not send me your link to your portfolio and let me find those broken links, because you're done. You're not queuing your materials? Why should I, and why would I want to pass you along? Because ultimately, my reputation as a recruiter is based off of who and what you are able to deliver. So that's the first thing, integrity.

The second thing is that there are people who are able to demonstrate their understanding of whatever that client challenge problem is above and beyond a job description. Please, that job description, whatever that outline is, is really a placeholder for so many other things.

And one of the things that I always encourage people to ask is, "Goodness, in a year from now when we're celebrating, why will that be? What is the reason that we're going to celebrate?" Because that is not on the job description. And so you really want to understand, what's behind the reasons for all of these other things? And good detectives, people that are doing more research, then I have to spoonfeed are excellent hallmarks of a candidate that I want to pass along.

And so it was those self-learners, people who are naturally curious, people who are looking at an opportunity for something way more than the JOB, they shine like human highlighters. Literally, they come out of the woodworks and they show up. Because quite honestly, most people, when you're looking at such large volumes of candidates are pretty average. And so being a good one, it doesn't mean you have to be 100% better. You could be 20% better, and it'll feel like you are creating an enormous gap between the masses and the classes.

Stewart Schuster:

Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do:

It's 2023. It's been four years since you found what you thought was your jam, and as a recruiter. What have you been doing the last four years?

Loren Greiff:

So I had, I guess you could call it like a white light experience. I had one of those crazy moments. And I know for a lot of people, they find themselves in this no man's land, and all of a sudden you're like, "Well, wait a second, I was really happy doing this and now I'm just not." And what I really came to understand, and it was innocuous. It wasn't even something that was unusual.

I had a candidate who was a chief marketing officer. This guy was brilliant. He came from Nike. He was a big personality, but he was also savvy and smart. And he had gone through maybe 10 rounds of interviews with this client, and the client calls me and says, "We are not going to hire Danny." And I'm thinking to myself goddammit, now I have to tell Danny, "By the way, this is not happening for you."" And he's going to go back to his family, and he's going to have to start all over again, and he's going to feel pretty crappy because he had put his whole heart and soul into this process, not to mention time, and making all kinds of leaps and bounds to satisfy a bunch of client asks in the process.

And I thought to myself, this is really crummy because I don't have anything more to offer him other than to say, "We'll put you back in the database."

Chris Do:

10 interviews. They couldn't decide before the 10th interview?

Loren Greiff:

I know.

Chris Do:

So why didn't they move forward with Danny?

Loren Greiff:

They had an internal candidate.

Chris Do:

So Danny had no shot then?

Loren Greiff:

Well, they brought that person in at round nine. So we were under the impression, we always asked that question. And when there's an exclusive, we need to know that. Because clearly, we're going to get paid no matter what. So it wasn't any skin off my back that you placed an internal candidate, but it was skin off of my back because I have a relationship with Danny.

Chris Do:

This is one of those unwinnable situations, right?

Loren Greiff:

Unwinnable.

Chris Do:

So it's not that Danny needed to be coached up or done something different. You can't win something like that when there's an inside track.

Loren Greiff:

And that capsule of unforgivingness within the marketplace is systemic and broken for so long, that I literally had been talking about integrity. I couldn't be in integrity with myself. I was sobbing. I was so angry, and I quit.

Chris Do:

Oh no.

Loren Greiff:

I quit not more than a week later. And I said, "I just don't feel good about this anymore. I think that if I'm going to be in this business, I would really want to offer a solution, because I don't want to be part of this disgusting problem that is really, in my mind, robbing people from their self-respect and their dignity."

And recourse. How are you going to learn to do this differently the next time? And how are you going to be successful if you are outsourcing all of your success in somebody else? And so I left on a Monday, I quit, and put my idea of Portfolio Rocket into proof of concept for a couple of months, and then launched in right before the pandemic in February of 2020.

Chris Do:

What makes Portfolio Rocket different than the previous role you played? Because essentially, I think you try to get people the right jobs for them, the right fit.

Loren Greiff:

So how it's different is while that may be the end goal, they are learning a methodology, a repeatable system so that when the C-suite chairs start moving around in another two or three years, they have a way to go back to this four-step process, and be able to regain that momentum, and learn it now, live it for the rest of your life.

And that's really one of the key differentiators is that the process that they are learning is also concurrently allowing them to build pipelines. So it's not like, "Okay, get your resume done." Sure you're going to need a resume, but what are you doing vis-a-vis LinkedIn, for example, to build your verticals of people that you know and love, and follow their content, and take those connections online to offline? So we don't collect people for the sake of them. We connect with them.

Many people will say, "I have a million followers and so I'm a great networker." Who do you know in that group? What kind of relationships? Are they like you're 2:00 in the morning friends that you can call and go ask for $10 million? And they turn around and say, "Do you want it in fives and tens?" Or are these people that you see every so often and you transact with them when you need something?

So that's part of the value of what they're learning is not just the job search pieces, but how to certainly overcome a lot of the biases that show up. Ageism for one, people feeling like they are skills deficient in certain areas. We want to make sure that their communication skills, that their AI skills, that they are able to stay relevant, because relevancy is oftentimes way more important than your experience itself.

Having 20 years of experience will mean nothing to me if you are irrelevant and don't know how to be using some of today's tools. So those are some of the key differentiators. I tell people right off the bat, "If you are looking for a JOB, please don't go to me, don't work with me."

Chris Do:

How do people find you so that you can help them with your four-step process, this repeatable thing that's a life skill that they can use and apply from that point forward?

Loren Greiff:

I produce content near daily on LinkedIn. I have a podcast called Career Blast in a Half, and I'm active on LinkedIn. I don't want to write crappy comments. I really am there to be an example for my clients and other people in terms of what it means to put something out there with care and quality, and also to be spending more time giving than I am necessarily receiving. I'm not looking for anything when I'm out there. I'm really looking to help as many people as I can by showing them and telling them some of the things that are effective and some of the things that have been wildly ineffective.

Many, many times you'll hear me say, "Stop with the landline thinking." Landline thinking, meaning a landline still works, but nobody uses it anymore. It's irrelevant. So I am really positioning a lot of what I say and what I do in the opportunity of exterminating a lot of stinky career advice.

Chris Do:

And the kind of people that you help to place into great jobs, great fits for them. They're at director level, C-suite executives?

Loren Greiff:

They're primarily at the executive and C-suite level. So senior vice presidents, executive vice presidents, C-Suite. Some of them are looking to make that move. Some of them are looking for lateral moves, maybe in different types of work environments. Going from a large enterprise, maybe over to a startup or vice versa.

So they all come with their own wishlist of things that are going to light them up. Sometimes, it's exactly the way that they think it's going to fall out, and sometimes it takes them in a completely different direction. But the idea and the results are really focused in on them meeting their criteria.

Because sometimes, criteria has nothing to do with compensation. It just means having a more manageable life or being able to work for a mission-based organization and really making a difference.

Chris Do:

Given that you've been doing this for a number of years, somebody's listening to this, what can they do to be more marketable, to move themselves to the top of the list? You mentioned there's a four step framework or a process that you bring them through. Give us a hint as to what some of these things are.

Loren Greiff:

Sure. The first place we start, we build an alignment blueprint. Please, it's so tempting, I know, for people to just rush into putting together their resume because that's more landline thinking, and that's what we've all been taught to do. But so much of what is happening in that search isn't about what you've done that's history. It's about what you want to do going forward, the future, and what that person also is looking for you to do in the future of their organization or their business. So you want to make sure that those are forward facing.

And the alignment blueprint really focuses on the why. Why do you do what you do in the first place? Half the people that I work with, they just don't know anymore because it's just something that they've been doing over and over and over again. And I know that you're a big fan of the people by why you do what you do, not what you do. And it has been perfectly molded into this mindset of, "I am a VP."

And that's not why they're hiring you. They're not hiring you because of your title. They're hiring you because of the transformation that you're there to bring to the table as a result of that title or as a result of that responsibility. So the why, your top three core values, and your top three skills are really the starting point in that blueprint.

Chris Do:

How do you communicate this?

Loren Greiff:

It's documented and put together through my core structure, through this curriculum that is available from a one-on-one standpoint, or it's also in a group cohort. We also have what we call a 30 day blast, which is like a bootcamp that runs for four weeks and puts some hustle into the scene.

Chris Do:

And do you find that people at this executive level, at the C-suites, they're highly motivated, they're ready to go?

Loren Greiff:

Yes and no. I think that there's something that we've learned over these four years. And given the amount of layoffs, and tech layoffs, and all of that, there's a certain amount of uncomfortability around admitting that you've been laid off. You can call it shame, you can call it... It's a knock. And even though it's very common these days, it still comes with a level of expectation and apology, that there needs to be a reason why.

And the reason why, the most common thing that we hear is, "And I've never, ever had to look for a job before." So this is both a double-edged sword. The good news is all your life, you've been plucked, everybody loves you, you've been moving and grooving, and you're unstoppable.

The downside is your muscles have just absolutely weakened. And you may have had a lot of support staff to help you through all kinds of transitions in your career, and you've probably never had to do any of this work before.

So even though you're motivated, you don't necessarily know what you're motivated for. You're motivated for the end result, but you don't know what is required to get from here to there.

Chris Do:

The question I meant to ask, and I didn't phrase it properly, but I'm glad you answered it the way you did, but let me try again. So somebody figures out their alignment blueprint, they figure out their why, they figure out their three core values and their top three skills. How do they communicate that to the world so that the world starts to recognize them and things start happening for them?

Loren Greiff:

Stories. Stories. We call them talk tracks and story stacks. So the way that we look at it is in somewhat of a clinical way, because there's only so much time that you have in front of a decision maker, and a decision maker doesn't necessarily have to be a hiring manager. It could be somebody you're networking with.

And so what I want to know is in your half an hour coffee that you're going to have, and you're going to have let's say six minutes at the front for a rapport building and another seven minutes in the backend for Q&A or some kind of wrap up. Now you have 13 minutes that are already taken out of this time.

What are you talking about in between there? What is your story going to share? What do they care about? Who is your audience? And how are you going to leave that conversation so that they remember you, and why it would be important for them to refer you or move you through the interview process?

And so we use a very simple framework called the PAR, which stands for problem, action, result, which helps to keep some guardrails in that conversation and remove some of that rambling that can happen very easily.

We also take advantage of the scientific process called the sequencing effect, which basically says people are checking out between the beginning and the end of any sequence. So they remember how this started and how this ended, but in the middle where that attention is distracted into, "I wonder when I'm going to pick up the kids, or who's going to make dinner, or am I going to get a workout in?" We need to be able to provide a level of stickiness within the stories so that they don't bland in.

And we do that with metrics. We do that with naming those stories. We do that through vocal tonalities all different ways, so that they are able to hold onto that story long after that person is gone.

Chris Do:

I'm going to put you on the spot.

Loren Greiff:

Go for it.

Chris Do:

You and I are having coffee. And you've been through your program. And you are an executive looking for a gig and you're networking. Give me the shortest version of what that might sound like, you and I are having coffee together and we're like, "This is a cool event. I'm glad we could sneak away and find a few minutes to chat and connect."

Loren Greiff:

So we're done with the rapport building?

Chris Do:

Pick it up from there. I don't know how this works. I'm horrible at networking. I don't even know how to set this up properly.

Loren Greiff:

So Chris, if you had to change one thing about your business, I mean, just one thing, what would it be?

Chris Do:

Should I answer this or are you-

Loren Greiff:

Yeah, we're doing it.

Chris Do:

No, we're doing it. Okay. That's a very good question, Loren. I don't know. I think there's lots of little things, but when you ask me what's the one thing, honestly, I don't know.

Loren Greiff:

Give me a little thing.

Chris Do:

Little thing is we need to fix our marketing.

Loren Greiff:

You need to fix your marketing. What's broken that needs to be fixed?

Chris Do:

Well, we have a number of products. Coaching options, courses, kits. And it feels like with the size of our audience, and the reach and engagement that we have, that the sales should just come in, but they don't. So something's not working.

Loren Greiff:

So fixing your marketing because you have a large audience, but a lot of products and they don't seem to be coming in. Am I missing anything?

Chris Do:

I think that's about it.

Loren Greiff:

Okay. I'm so fascinated with this, because one of the... I'm role playing here. One of the experiences that I have is I've worked with a number of large venues like Madison Square Garden and also a number of other membership based organizations, and help them understand and curate their lists. I can share with you how this worked. We may not have time today, but what I'd like to do is set up a follow-up meeting so that I could walk you through how some of these pieces may be very effective in helping you to move and curate a tighter group of offerings that are a better win for the best clients that you have. Would you be open to that?

Chris Do:

Yeah, I think so.

Loren Greiff:

Okay.

Chris Do:

End scene.

Loren Greiff:

End scene.

Chris Do:

All right. Break down what's going on.

Loren Greiff:

So what's going on here is that I'm exploring no different than your sales process. Questions, questions, questions. I need to know where the pain point is. I need to also be listening for if that pain point is also going to leverage something that I can be useful and helpful with.

And so in this example, the issue is something that I can do. I can help you, I can deliver on that. But I'm not going to give it all away in that first meeting. I'm not going to be rushed. I'm not going to be unprepared. I'm just proverbially wetting the appetite of this person, so that they are essentially on the hook and curious about more. That gives me time to do more research, better understand this, look at the competitive set, understand a little bit more about what's going on. And then immediately after, fortune is in the follow-up. I'm not just putting you and your broken marketing issue on the side. I'm going back, and I'm probably also sending a video, an embedded video in my email. A Loom video, right?

Loom is free. We use that for memorability. People get too many emails and they go nowhere. So please, if you know anything about Daniel Priestley, you know that if you keep doing the same thing and reaching out in the same type of way, five emails and you're not getting a response, find another avenue.

So we start off after that in-person meeting or Zoom. We will follow up with an in-person or embedded video, and take it from there and schedule that next call. So we're closing those gaps.

Chris Do:

What you describe to me sounds more like a initial discovery sales process. But how is this tied to... I'm looking for the next CRO position. Because at that point, you're not looking to sell services, you're looking to build the connection so that you become that person for that company.

Loren Greiff:

So the hidden job market is a term used for the 80 to 85% of opportunities that are never posted on the marketplace. And what I mean by that is that they are not visible. You're not going to find out about them. There's no secret treasure trove. You find out about them through these conversations.

Many of our clients pitch to future employers and land jobs that never existed before. Some of them also take a job that maybe 50, 60, 70% of the way there, and augment it so that it's a better fit for them once they understand, "You have this job description, and that's all good," but this is really what I'm seeing as the problem. So they take that and then modify what that essentially spec is and make it their own. Some of them will also go in, not get that specific job, and then be able to get pitched for another role.

So there are various ways throughout the marketplace that you are proactively positioning yourself as the solution to a variety of different problems. And so part of this methodology is being able to say, "Hey, it's okay. You can go and work with headhunters and recruiters." But nine times out of 10, that's not where they land. They have that in the queue, like the food pyramid. No one food is the answer. We want to make sure that they are keeping themselves in active processes with interviewing so that nothing gets too stale. So they're concurrently doing their interviews, they're networking, and they're building their pipeline of organizations.

Chris Do:

So if I'm hearing this correctly, it sounds like you're helping your clients get the inside track before the job is even created or people are even aware of it.

Loren Greiff:

So much of the time, and you're 100% right, Chris. Because so much of the time, that position just doesn't have budget yet. Or we just found out that so-and-so is moving out of state because they have a sick parent or mother-in-law. And all of this is happening and you have no idea, or it's very confidential, hush-hush, and we don't want the rest of the world to know that we're moving this person out.

So all of these things are happening behind the scenes, and you're not going to know about them unless you're having those conversations. So it's critical, because the craziest things show up when those seeds are planted.

Chris Do:

I see. So in a situation like this, in the role play we just had where we bumped into each other, we're having exchange or asking me open-ended questions, kind of just figuring out what's going on. And then you hear there's a marketing problem. It just so happens, used to be the marketing director or chief marketing officer at X, Y, Z company. You're not angling to sell me a service. You want to build this longer relationship with me, such that when I'm like, "Who are we going to bring in? There was that Loren lady. She struck me as a person who knew something, and she followed up, and she provided solutions. She seems to be a person of substance. I need to get HR on this and bring you in for a couple of interviews to see if it's a good fit." Is that what we're talking about here?

Loren Greiff:

That is, and/or you know somebody who needs this person. So now you are my referral source. And in the spirit of weak ties, maybe, I don't know, weak ties, I'll explain it in a minute. But that person who I don't know yet who is connected through you. And so now, that second or third degree connection is part of how I am finding my next opportunity, because I've already had a wonderful rapport with you. I've already demonstrated something, and you want to help me. You had a positive experience, and now you want to, as you are, in the circles that you're in, hearing about these opportunities. You're making those introductions on my behalf.

Chris Do:

Wonderful. Couple other ideas I want to touch on before we wrap this up. Something funny happened during the pandemic or maybe leading into it, in that there seemed to be a pretty healthy job market where it was such a case where employees held a lot of power. And so when Covid happened, everybody was sent home. Remote work was a thing, became a thing, became accepted standard. And then when we are easing out of the Covid restrictions, people are coming back to the office, employees like, "No, I don't want to come back. I want to manage my own time and do what I want."

And I think a lot of employers, and I talked to them who own agencies who were really frustrated like, "What do we do? We're kind of screwed. We see productivity going down, we see expenses going up, and we're never sure if anybody's actually working anymore. We're seeing it go away and we don't what to do." Well, as many people found out the last three or six months, there's been massive layoffs across multiple companies. Companies that have billions of dollars of cash, they just let go of a lot of people. What's your take on that?

Loren Greiff:

So the job market is always on a very large, swinging pendulum. It can change at any moment, and it's obviously affected by recessions, election years, seasonality, different flavors of companies. Tech was hot, now it's not. Different evolutions. It's one of the reasons why I personally love it, because it's so dynamic.

So my take on the hybrid remote productivity quandary is really that it's still influx, it's still in development. It is a massive shift. I mean, we've never had a global pandemic like that before. Many companies, you wouldn't even have just taken a very hard line.

JP Morgan Chase, you're not going to be working remote. You know that right off the bat. They took a hard stand a number of years ago. Other companies have flip-flopped back and forth and back and forth. Salesforce, back and forth and back and forth. So it's a real case by case situation.

And that said, you can also negotiate to make every effort to get what it is that you want. I have many a client who have special situations or have negotiated work from home three days a week because the commute was too much. And that came when they were interviewing. It was part of the leverage. "Listen, this is what I come with. I am not negotiating this. This is really important to me."

So both things are true. You have to understand what the market is doing and what that organization is requiring, because there's probably a very slim chance that they're going to make a huge exception for you. You must have a case. And the idea here is to build the relationship strong enough from the very beginning, that that overrides a lot of the policies and procedures. Because when they want you, they're going to be much more malleable about what it is that they're willing to accept.

Chris Do:

So here's the thing. Let's just use laws of averages, where you're going to always have 10 to 20% like high performing people in an organization. And you're going to have maybe 10 to 20% that are really low performing. Then you have everyone in the middle.

So when the deck was cleared, when we said, "Everybody go home," initially because we couldn't do anything. We couldn't go anywhere. We were stuck in our homes, and we're adjusting to this new life, and people were working really hard. And then that's when employers are like, "Wow, we didn't lose any bit of productivity." And everybody gets to manage their own life. You could be around your children if you have children. You don't waste your time on the train or the commute. It's a wonderful thing. You're also easing the congestion on the roads, reducing the carbon footprint, lots of great things.

Then what happened is with great power comes great responsibility, or with great responsibility comes great power. Either way, the Covid restrictions loosened up. People going out to festivals, they're going out to eat. And all of a sudden, I suspect a lot of them didn't have that same mindset and work ethic that, "I'm working for a company. It's a privilege, not a right. And if I do my part and if everybody in our organization does their part, this is going to work out perfectly." But then we started to seeing things like, "Is this person even at work anymore?" And instead of giving five, six hours of productivity, they're giving two hours. They're not available for meetings and all kinds of stuff. Now we see it flip.

I wish there were more of a balanced approach to this where it wasn't all the power to employees, and then it's not all powers to employers. We need to come together in some kind of egalitarian way where everybody, it's merit based, and we're going to do this. And those of us that can handle it in mid to senior positions who are responsible, can dictate their own hours and way they work, versus people who are maybe starting in their career and have never had a job before. There's some flexibility there, because I hated seeing it go both ways.

I see my friends who own agencies then pull five, 600 people saying, "Look, we're losing money. I have to sell my building." And then one day showing up and saying, "We just laid off 30% of our staff." I'm like, "That sucks." Those same people who are super picky and demanding are now calling everyone up. It's like, "Do you have a job? Do you have a job?" And I hate that pendulum swing. So I don't know if I'm asking for a solution more than just me kind of airing this out, that I wish there were a little bit more balance.

Loren Greiff:

Yeah, it's going to take a long time before that equilibrium comes to a place. And I'm not even sure what it could possibly look like, because the DNA of some of these companies are so specific. And what I mean by that is a lot of our clients have said to themselves, "I don't mind going back to the office now, because either I've been off for a long time, or it's just what's required."

In Seth Godin's book Linchpin, he talks about this idea that the person that is allowed, or the person that builds the most equity at that company is the linchpin. The linchpin is that person that sees around the corner and down the block, and essentially buys themselves a lot of job security. And so if you are shaving hours and not doing whatever it is, that career karma, it's going to bite you. And so if you're looking for a way to scam the system, it's not going to benefit you.

And so those jobs, if you have them and you want to hold onto them, continue to do the best job that you possibly can, even over deliver. Because it is going to always be survival of the fittest. They're not going to keep you on board if you are already starting to meddle with the privilege that you have. And so I think that that's probably the most universal way of approaching your career is to treat it like a huge gift and opportunity for you to participate wherever it is. It doesn't have to be in an organization. And mind it like it matters, not like it's a paycheck.

Chris Do:

I'll say this, without revealing anyone's age. I think we're of similar age. I believe you might be a little bit older than me, not much. Just put it out there.

Maybe we just come from a different time, when we were looking forward to actually going to work and doing a good job. And we had a strong work ethic, and we knew something, that if you always over-deliver at the workplace, you'll be rewarded for it. Which ties into this expression, dress for the job you want, not for the job that you have.

So what I find that with especially many young people, blanket statement here, is they want you to give them that job first before they've earned that. And every job that I've ever had, and have not had many, I overdelivered and management recognized it right away. Started offering more money, more privileges, just more freedom, a lot of flexibility there. Those Mad Men moments where Cap'n Crunch time, I had my Cap'n Crunch time too. And it worked for big corporations, ginormous agencies, to small independent companies, everything in between also with clients.

So how do we get back to that place where... And people talk about this quite a bit, where it's like the decline of American work ethic, innovation, all those kinds of things because we're getting soft.

So I try to tell my kids this, and they're not even of working age yet. If you always do more than what you're paid to do, eventually you'll be paid more than what you do. So why not think like that? Look for the next steps, look around the corner, be the person that's a linchpin.

And I'm sure that's what makes people leaders prize possession so that when they're laying everyone else off, they're like, "Sarah, we're not touching her. Leave her alone. Because this is not working without Sarah. Lay everyone else off. I'll take money out of my own paycheck so that Sarah stays." Now, why isn't more people, why don't they have this attitude?

Loren Greiff:

I don't know why they don't. I think that it is an opportunity though to have a lot of pride. And I don't mean pride in a false sense of pride, but I do see that it has a cascading effect on everything else. You start cutting corners in this area and that area. Well inevitably, it's going to show up in your work life, and you're probably not going to be feeling very fulfilled either because you just cheated yourself. You cheated yourself, probably cheated your bank account, cheated opportunities, cheated maybe your dreams and all of those outcomes that are attached to that.

And so you can play that, the short game, and you can think that you're getting away with it. And maybe it's fine when you're a little bit younger, but it does catch up. And we see that. We see that a lot, because those inflated titles or a lot of those awards or rewards that are given, they don't translate in the talk tracks. They don't have the breadth, and depth, and anchoring that they do. What does that mean? So you are a VP at this company, and you have nothing to share for it? You got the title, but you didn't get the experience. And so now there's this gap, and it also has the propensity to lead to a lot of imposter syndrome.

Chris Do:

That's a whole nother topic for another day. There is another question or a thought that I had. I'd love to get your opinion on this. Schools should be measured for job placement, quality of life, average salaries, but they're not. At least the schools that I know about. So when you were talking about, "I helped to train people to be as employable as possible, to be leaders," and at one point you worked as a recruiter or a headhunter to help place these people. Why aren't schools investing in this idea, or not enough of them, or to the scale in which it makes any real difference?

There's one school in particular, I believe Stanford's graduate program has a 100% job placement. Only people who don't want to work don't have a job. And shouldn't that be the standard for community colleges, for universities of all statures, where they invest a lot in recruiters and training people? So you have an education, but you have to make yourself really presentable. You have to learn to play the long game to deliver value. And we also have our ear to the ground, when there's a whisper, or murmur, or rumor about openings, that our candidates are the first one in the door.

Loren Greiff:

Most of those college career placement offices are low paying. They are also recycling a lot of old, stinky career advice. And in that period that I was talking about when I was in proof of concept, that's all I did is I went to various alumni within major cities and talked to them about this.

And it also overlaps with many of the outplacement firms. A lot of the large corporations, when they let go a massive amount of people, they offer them outplacement services as a way to help soften the blow and hopefully get them back on their feet.

But nine times out of 10, those people still choose to pay out of pocket for Portfolio Rocket, because what they're learning in the outplacement firms is from the '50s, and it's disrespectful to what is happening in their careers. It's very generic. It doesn't really mesh with the way that hiring practices work. It takes a lot of work to stay up with marketplaces that are changing every single minute.

So some of that needs to be imparted on a more mass level, which also can be addressed through channels like LinkedIn, where there's LinkedIn Learning and tons of people like myself, great content creators who are offering free information to help move that needle so that it's democratized.

Chris Do:

And this is not to cast blame on the good working, hardworking men and women who are up to speed with current and contemporary practices. Some of are just overworked and don't have enough resources, and there are too many bodies being thrown at them, that they can't take the time to get to know each person, to help guide them in their career and kind of figure out, "Yeah, you'd be really good at X, Y, Z consultancy." It's just you're another face, another name, and I got to get you through the door, and host generic recruitment fairs, those kinds of things, which it's like a cattle call. How do I stand out here? And it's painful to see.

So you've helped me in thinking about how I want to run a school in the future in that having recruitment, having someone to train our people once we have a deep enough catalog where we're really trying our best to teach people skills that are highly employable, that we need somebody like you to come in, to run programs, and also to have an army of recruiters working with us so that if you go through the program, it's a high ROI. It's not a expense for you, and you don't have to worry about the future.

Loren Greiff:

I'd love to be a part of that.

Chris Do:

Well, Loren, it was great talking to you today. I really enjoyed it. And there's something that you said, I just want to leave our audience with this, because you're like, "I'm not looking for a job, Chris. Aren't you anti-job?" In a way, I am. Because I want you to create your own job. I want you to be your own boss.

But what Loren shared with us in terms of how we have to think long-term when we are running into people to build rapport... And something that she said really struck a chord with me, really resonated, which was, you're not trying to close something. You're not trying to pitch and sell on the spot. It's annoying. No one wants to do that, and it's kind of, I find sometimes quite repulsive. And we're seeing across social media, I'm sure you see this all the time in the DMs or in your emails, "Chris, I admire your company. And by the way, do you need recruitment, or do you need X, Y, Z productivity help, or AI robots, or offshore development?" Like, "No, I don't need any of these things. Who the hell are you again? Let me block you right now."

And now I'm going through it with a little spite. Everybody who sends me an unsolicited offer to do something, I don't care how good you're, I'm just going to block you, because I'm tired of reading your emails. "This is the fourth time. Just want to make sure." No, clearly I have zero interest. I don't even know who you are.

And so what I love about what you said was the opportunity might not be here today, or they might even be the right person. They know someone that knows someone. And so you understand that you play the long game. It might not be Bob, or Mary, or John. It could be someone connected to them that's going to be your next big breakthrough client, or project, or something. If you show up, and you give value, and you are intentional in your questions and the way that you listen, the way that you follow up, that could be a big breakthrough for you. And maybe that's the best kind of marketing, when other people are marketing for you, right?

Loren Greiff:

Attraction not promotion.

Chris Do:

Yeah. So if people want to find more about Portfolio Rocket or you, what do they need to do?

Loren Greiff:

I'm always on LinkedIn, so you can find me there, Loren Greiff, and you can also check out my podcast Career Blast in a Half.

Chris Do:

Thanks for coming on the podcast today.

Loren Greiff:

I can't thank you enough, Chris. It means the world to me.

This is Loren Greiff and you are listening to The Futur.

Stewart Schuster:

Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app, and get a new insightful episode from us every week.

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