Ian Dawson: AI is a big controversy right now, right? Like, Oh, it's going to take over people's jobs. And I don't necessarily see it as totally taking over people's jobs. I see it as reducing the amount of work that is going to be needed from those people, which means. There will be less money going to individuals to do that work.

Chris Do: Hey everybody, today's episode is a special one for me because it's a trip down memory lane. And before I introduce my guest for today's episode, I want to tell you how we first met. And there's some funny stories that we're going to talk about that and what has changed over all these years. So I'm out of school and I have a brief stint working as a designer at Epitaph Records, but it's not a good fit for me.

Chris Do: So I go freelance. And with no leads and no prospects, I don't even know what I was thinking just quitting this job, but hey, whatever, I leap first and check to see if there's water in the pool. Coincidentally, at this time, my work had been circulated on the Adobe, I guess, Adobe After Effects CD ROM, and it was being circulated with some student work that I'd done.

Chris Do: And a gentleman reached out to me. His name is David Neuberger. And he invited me to come in and speak to him at Novacom. So I'm in downtown LA and I make my way over to Hollywood. I think it's off Santa Monica. And I go to this place called Novacom and I park in the back and I was like, this is a little different.

Chris Do: And I'm walking in. I'm like, wow, this is a lot different when I walk in. And in comes this gentleman. His name is Ian Dawson and he's an executive producer. And he's very friendly. And he comes over to me. He said, Chris, um, have you had anything to eat? I was like, What? I'm here to work, bro. He's like, come on, come on.

Chris Do: He brings me down this long hallway, we turn to the left, and there's this spread that you just cannot believe. And I feel like I'm staying at a high end hotel with a buffet breakfast spread, and he's like, she'll make anything you want. You want an omelette? You want something? And the spread was ridiculous.

Chris Do: And I was very self conscious. And I was thinking, I don't want to seem like a pig on my first day here. So I might grab a few things. And then I just kind of like, wow, I could get used to this. And the gentleman is the person I'm going to be talking to today. And his name is Ian. And Ian at that time was an executive producer at the hottest broadcast design studio, probably in the world, at least in LA.

Chris Do: And I even was just chuckling because when he introduced himself as the executive producer, I'm like, fancy title, sir. It's like, what the hell is the, what are you talking about? But now I know what it means. But back then I was like, damn, people got fancy titles, fancy offices and fancy spread. So without further ado, I just want to welcome a professional colleague. And I would call him a friend, somebody I've known now coming up on 30 years. Ian Dawson, welcome to the show.

Ian Dawson: Thanks, Chris. That's a great story. Yeah, I remember you working there, and I didn't want you to leave. I think, uh, I was trying to get you to stay. Yeah. If I remember correctly.

Chris Do: Okay, now, usually what I do is I have everybody introduce themselves and tell them a little story, but I'm going to hold off on that because there's a little bit more to the story.

Chris Do: Because for fans who are into the deep cuts, this is going to be a deep cut episode, everybody. So I'm freelancing at Novacom, and I'm only there for about two weeks. That's as long as I'm booked. I'm working on projects. I know nothing about broadcast design. I'm doing square pixels when it should be non square.

Chris Do: I'm just messing everything up. And Ian comes in one day and he's like, hey, you know, in the way that Ian does things, he smiles and he's like, What do you think about coming and working for us for full time? And you know what? From where I was coming from before, working in advertising, and then working at the record label, I was like, I could get used to this.

Chris Do: This is pretty cool. But fate or timing would intervene, because at this moment in time, I was getting the opportunity to start my own company. And so Ian offers me a job, and I think I remember the price. I think he offered me I'm going to say like $50,000.

Ian Dawson: Wow, I don't even remember that. You would remember that. I obviously don't, so yeah.

Chris Do: Yeah, I remember all the glory or juicy, gory details to this story. So I think he offered me about $50,000, which just kind of for everyone to consider was $10,000 more than I was making. So this is like already a movement. I had this number in my mind, and the number I'm going to tell you is going to probably make you think differently about me.

Chris Do: I said, Ian, the only number I would consider is $85,000. And Ian's eyes like opened up like, what? You just graduated from school, friend. People don't come out of school and make that kind of money. He didn't say that, but his eyes said something. And he's like, let me get back to you. There's kind of like a, like a little astonishment.

Chris Do: Like this young kid, probably cocky. He's just asking for too much money. And the reason why I asked for this amount of money is because when I was working at Colin Webber, that's what they offered me. I'm just like, you got to match my last offer. He goes, let me think about it. So fast forward, I'm going to start my own company.

Chris Do: And so the word already circulated around the office that I'm leaving. I'm finishing up my freelance gig. Ian comes in the door and he's like, you didn't give me a chance to counter. I said, well, things move fast and I'm starting my own company. And Ian said to me, good luck. I think he meant it. I did mean it.

Chris Do: But I felt like he was saying in my mind, good luck. We'll see you come crawling back in a few weeks when you don't know what you're doing. So Ian, please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you and your backstory.

Ian Dawson: So I'm Ian Dawson. I've been an EP, senior producer, VFX producer, you name it. Graphics horror. I started in this business in 1988. I was still in college at Northridge. I, uh, got lucky enough to have a night class with a guy who was the technical director at Entertainment Tonight. And he introduced me to John Ridgeway, who was creative director at Paramount. And I'm on entertainment tonight.

Ian Dawson: And John was like, yeah, come in. You can be an intern. So I, I started there and literally I started getting paid from the first day I started working as a kind of a motion control assistant. With a guy named Joe Dubbs there. Over the years, we, you know, we did a tremendous amount of work. We launched networks around the world in over 20 countries and TV station.

Ian Dawson: You know, we can go into all the details of, of, of Novacom at the time, but, uh, That was a good run. I was there for about eight years and went to Rhythm Hues and ran Rhythm Hues post and CG work for a while and then for commercials and then went and started working for a few independent shops, yours being one of them at Blind, but, uh, Yuko and, and a couple of Jerry Steele, Steele VFX and, and a number of other ones.

Ian Dawson: And eventually we have a mutual friend, Chris and I. Named Doug Sharon, I think Doug at the time was, was a rep for Blind and, uh, Chris used to have these poker, these great poker games at his house, which were a lot of fun and they were very, very social people within the industry. And, and once I came and there was a gentleman, Kyle Cooper there, who I'm sure everybody here is familiar with. And I think Kyle was the first one out.

Chris Do: He was, I can't believe you remember that because he fires hot, he's all in like real fast.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, that's right. It was like a week or two weeks later, you called me up, I think, and said, you know, are you interested in, you know, meeting with Kyle and that was really my first time meeting Kyle was at your house, you know, playing poker so yeah, I ended up going in and meeting with Kyle and and working for him for about eight years and then decided to sort of do my own thing.

Ian Dawson: He's always scared of freelance believe it or not But I've been sort of working out of my own company since about 2015, and it's more, I do end up working at companies for like a year at a time or longer if they want, and then sometimes I am doing work through my own company, but after working with Kyle, I kind of got back into doing virtual reality, augmented reality work, and we can go into some of that if you want.

Ian Dawson: So I, I recently finished up a consulting gig for a year at Be Grizzly, which is part of Omnicom's creative services division. And now I'm sort of back, uh, doing freelance again through my own company.

Chris Do: I have a bunch of questions and this is going to be a nostalgia episode, everybody. So if this is not your cup of tea, feel free to skip it.

Chris Do: But if you want to find out about the way that the industry was and how it's evolved, I'm going to encourage you to stay here with us. I want to go back to 1995. That's when I got out of school and I started working at Novacom. Take us back the position and the place in time. What was happening in the industry from your point of view?

Chris Do: And I described Novacom as one of the hottest, if not the hottest shop in the world doing broadcast work, because I was just blown away that you guys were designing things for German television. And you're working on all kinds of TV shows and show packages. It was nuts there. And some of the people who were walking in and out, even though I was only there for two weeks, later on became icons in the industry, or were already icons, because there's also time and in place where the edit base literally cost a million dollars. They were using Quantel Paintboxes, Henry Harry's, things like that. Maybe I'm messing up the timeline here, but

Ian Dawson: No, no, no, you're right.

Chris Do: Hard for me to imagine that there was a machine that literally cost a million dollars and they had multiple machines like this. And when you don't know what these things are, people would describe it as, it's Photoshop on steroids, but for video. And that seemed like about right. So, take us back there. What was happening at that point in time? Let us live the good old days first.

Ian Dawson: Sure. Well, I mean, you have to remember, at that time when you had come in, After Effects was pretty new. It had just, Changed from Cosa After Effects to Adobe and you couldn't do stuff on the desktop pretty much. I mean, you needed a paint box, which costs 250, 000 or more, which was literally the Photoshop of the day made by Quantel. And then you had a compositing tool, which was at that time, Harry. And you could basically just composite one layer at a time over the other.

Ian Dawson: And then eventually there was a Henry and that allowed you to do five layers of compositing at a time. And then eventually it went up seven and whatever layers, but, but yeah, there was no desktop work at all. I had come from the print world. Cause my uncle owned a pre press kind of place doing movie posters.

Ian Dawson: So I knew where this was all going because the print world had totally changed and I helped him do a little bit of that too. So. At that point, literally there was, that transition was slowly happening from working on these high end, dedicated pieces of equipment to Macs. And people were doing Photoshop work.

Ian Dawson: We had a lot of people at that time doing Photoshop work. You were doing Photoshop work at that time. And then people were dabbling in After Effects, doing simpler, smaller things in After Effects. And we could see at that time, these million dollar boxes were potentially going to go away and then flame came out so we had a flame or two and that could do some other things that you couldn't do in After Effects and plus those machines were much faster.

Ian Dawson: They were dedicated hardware, dedicated video cards, all of that stuff that made doing that work a lot faster than doing it on a desktop at that point.

Chris Do: Right. We're in the heyday here. We're in the mid 90s and I heard about these late night sessions with directors and clients when people are literally doing lines of coke. You'll have to tell me. And these are just rumors. I'm just a young kid in the world.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, so, well, going back to your previous question, there was about four companies at that time that were the big companies, and the big ones here in LA, it was Pittard Sullivan and Novacom, and really there were two creative directors that were the big creative directors.

Ian Dawson: It was Jeff Bortz, at Pittard Sullivan and Chris Williamson at Novacom. And Chris was a paintbox artist, traditional illustrator, painter, and did work on the, on the paintbox. Whereas Jeff, not to say he wasn't that, but he was a lot more into live action. And so a lot of Pittard Sullivan's look had a lot of live action elements in it.

Ian Dawson: Whereas Novacoms was a lot of like very graphic 3D flying logo type stuff. So that was kind of the big difference and at that time, a lot of networks, you know, Rupert Murdoch was going around the world buying networks and a lot of government. Own TV stations were becoming privatized and being bought by individuals.

Ian Dawson: And those people wanted to redo the entire network to look like Western American TV. And so we were just in the right place at the right time. And I got to travel the world in my very early twenties, relaunching networks, rebranding networks around the world. And shows here in LA and, you know, for Paramount and, and, and whatnot.

Ian Dawson: So that was kind of the, the way the world was back then.

Chris Do: You saw budgets back then. What were the budgets like? Just blow people's minds. Just like, what were people paying?

Ian Dawson: Yeah. I mean, budgets were. I wish budgets were like that again.

Chris Do: Let's wax poetic about that.

Ian Dawson: Good old, I mean, obviously the equipment was really expensive. So you were paying, you couldn't do it on a desktop. So, you know, you'd have an artist that was making lots of money and you had a box that had a big overhead to it, you know, million dollars or whatever. And there were very small number of companies that were doing it. So budgets ranged generally. I would say from 250, 000 up to two, three, 4 million, depending on what you had, what you wanted to do or what was needed.

Ian Dawson: So, you know, you would go in and we'd rebrand, let's say be sky B in London. And, you know, we'd get a million and a half dollars and then we'd go to Singapore and we may get another million and a half dollars, but then they want us to train their people on how to use the equipment and all that. So we'd get additional funds for doing those kinds of trainings and TV show title sequences and packages were $250,000 or more. And we're just, I get calls today for people wanting show packages for $30,000 or less. So it's just a huge difference. And because you can do it on the desktop and there's more and more great creative artists around. It's a supply and demand situation, our business is as every business is.

Chris Do: Okay, so you heard the budgets back then. It sounded like Novacom was at this super, kind of critical juncture within the world of broadcast television. You said that they were privatized, being bought out by independent owners, Rupert Murdoch going around buying, TV station networks, whatever.

Chris Do: And so there was a appetite. There was emerging technology. And there was low competition. You mentioned that there are four major studios. We don't need to get into that. But when there are four people who can do what you do in the world, you kind of have the pick of the litter, if you will. And you can name your own price.

Chris Do: And so we have these rooms that were, the software hardware packages were expensive, but all the supporting equipment, the decks, the drives, the scopes, the monitors, audio equipment, the engineering, the support staff, everything that touched us was expensive because there just wasn't a lot of customers to sell to.

Chris Do: So therefore the price per unit is very high, which creates a barrier to entry. Meaning, you or I could not just go in and compete with Novacom or Peter Sullivan because we just didn't have the capabilities. And at this time, After Effects, it's not fast enough, and it's not a mature tool at this point, it's considered maybe like an ugly bastard child, you can use it, But it's still too new.

Chris Do: And so you kind of have a, not a monopoly, but a pretty good control of the market. And you capitalize on that stuff. So in its heyday, I mean, I don't, I think it's safe to say now, right? How much were you guys grossing in 1995, roughly?

Ian Dawson: Oh, wow.

Chris Do: Do you know or guesstimate?

Ian Dawson: Well, I mean, I think it was at least 30 million at that time. I think it's margins were really high. I mean, margins were really high. 50, 60%. We ended up not only doing design and that, but also becoming a facility. The company moved from Hollywood out to Playa Vista and our downstairs portion of our building was a facility where people could come out and rent Henry Bayes and, and whatever else. And then we had the design and animation and whatnot up above. So that really increased revenue as well. So company was doing. was doing well at the time.

Chris Do: Yeah. Doing really well.

Ian Dawson: I'm sure we were spending a lot of money at the time too, but you know.

Chris Do: For young people who are listening to us or people who don't live in Los Angeles, they have a hard time even imagining what was going on. These bays were, are lavish. They're enormous rooms. Sometimes it could be 800 square feet or something like that. And, and all the accoutrements that you'd expect was a room that costs roughly a thousand dollars an hour to book. And it's not like you're just booking for an hour, you're booking for multiple sessions, weeks long sometimes, to do the visual effects or design and compositing for commercials.

Chris Do: And back then they're throwing crazy amounts of money. It would not be unheard of for people to spend a million dollars on a music video, a million plus on TV spots. This is when people like Ridley Scott were still directing commercials, when they were still semi available, maybe towards the tail end of that. But we're talking about big name directors.

Ian Dawson: David Fincher was doing music videos at the time at Propaganda, so you know.

Chris Do: Yeah, and Zack Snyder, not yet out of school, but soon to be out of school, doing all this kind of stuff, or maybe he was out of school. So that's the kind of setting. So the reason why you would walk into the kitchen and it would be so decked out is because the clients there were paying so much money per hour per project that the client service game had to be on point.

Chris Do: And that was the shocking thing for me to experience, to walk in and like, what kind of design place is this? Because I've not imagined anything like this being possible. I asked you this question earlier, but I want to try and ask it one more time, see if you have an answer for me. I heard rumors about parties with, how do we describe these certain people you pay them money to hang out with you and party? And drugs and all kinds of stuff. That was just part of the landscape. It wasn't unusual.

Ian Dawson: I mean, you know, it had started well before that. There was a place called Abel and Associates and there was a, there was a back room at Abel and Associates that was a very, very well known as the cocaine room. And many, many of people that was kind of the first company and lots of other companies written in use and others came out of the people that worked there at Able and Associates. I suggest that everybody look that up. If you're interested in graphics, know your history, that'll be really interesting to you. But those were the real heydays, but like we used to joke that I would sit a lot of times in Chris Williamson's paintbox room, and if you open the door to Chris's paintbox room, it was like Fast Times at Ridgemont High, like Spicoli coming out of the room. There'd just be this smoke cloud when you left the room, and it was in there being creative, having a good time, and uh, you know, we didn't have we didn't hire anybody to come in or do anything like that, but a lot of the, uh, you know, a lot of the clients liked working at our place because not only of the great food and the great artists and the great work that was done, but people were doing lines and people were smoking pot and that type of stuff was happening at the time.

Chris Do: It's the 90s, man. Different times.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, so yeah, it was, it was a good time.

Chris Do: Yeah, and for people who don't understand the reference that Ian dropped, just think Snoop Dogg and you'll understand the smoke reference. Okay, everybody? You can put two and two.

Ian Dawson: Or Fast Times at Ridgemont High. If you haven't seen that movie, definitely go see Fast Times at Ridgemont High and look at Spicoli coming out of the car or the van.

Chris Do: Yeah, as I imagine many people weren't even born when that movie was released, but okay.

Ian Dawson: That's right. So definitely see that movie.

Chris Do: Okay, so Ian and my story kind of intertwined throughout the decades, and there's moments and there's learning lessons, and it's like kind of ironic because I recently had lunch with Ian. I said, your name came up because I just recorded a video where I mentioned you, but I just want to just open that loop. I'll get back to it in a little bit. So there's this move from Hollywood to Playa, Playa Vista, Playa Del Rey. And what I had heard at the time was, was DreamWorks, SKG was going to take out a big chunk of land out there and develop the next great studio.

Chris Do: And there was so much buzz behind DreamWorks. And I understand that one of the things was a lot of people uprooted from Hollywood because it was migrating West anyways, and went West to, to meet the demand, but unfortunately, or fortunately, there were many kind of activists protesting the development of this land.

Chris Do: They wanted to protect it. to conserve it. And ultimately that kind of pressure shut down DreamWorks coming out. And there are probably other issues, but I always thought it was like, wow, what happened here? Is there a learning lesson? Because I went to visit you when you guys moved out and it was this massive facility.

Chris Do: I can remember walking through and just like looking at all this space, whereas Hollywood, it was jammed and it was an energy and a kind of frenetic quality to it. Whereas here it's like kind of spread out.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. We went from like 10, 000 square feet to 40, 000 square feet. And bays were bigger at, at, at the new place. And, and like I said, there was downstairs was all the high end bay equipment and upstairs was, you know, designers and, and, and After Effects artists and whatnot, and, and management. And originally the thought was, okay, this is going to be Hollywood West and DreamWorks is going in there and whatnot. But we also needed at that time, a bigger space.

Ian Dawson: We didn't have enough bays for the amount of work that we needed and that we were being demanded. But I think there was a little bit of a misconception that people would drive over or be, you know, come to, to playa. I mean, we were busy, but post wise, you know, for the downstairs, it wasn't as busy as they had hoped that it would be to try to get everybody agencies and everybody over there.

Ian Dawson: As time went on, that wasn't a big deal. Once Nova comm ended up closing or whatever, they were. Lots of companies in Santa Monica and, and that area doing agency work and whatnot. But at the time we were one, you know, besides rhythm and Hughes, we were one of the first companies out there. And then eventually Chiant Day moved out there.

Ian Dawson: That was when I was at rhythm and Hughes, but back at Novacom, it was, it was tough, but we did some really interesting things that back then, like we were the first company really to do, to run a Henry across town. We had a box at Paramount and we had a box in Playa Vista and we could literally have sessions.

Ian Dawson: So if somebody didn't want to drive to Playa Vista, we would tell them, go over to Paramount. You could sit in a room there and you could literally watch the artist in Playa doing the work. And nobody had been, was doing that really at that time. And it was very hard to do that in LA at the time because you needed fast enough internet.

Ian Dawson: And unfortunately, because the whole idea of DreamWorks going in there, they had laid this fiber line literally that ran underneath Novacom at that time. And so all we had to do was get GTE and it wasn't AT&T at the time. I think it was Pac Bell to talk to each other and let, let it happen. So. We were really the first to be able to run, kind of, work remotely that way on these high end boxes.

Chris Do: And if I remember correctly, the center of the design visual effects industry was in Hollywood because the studios were there. And if you wanted to work with studios, you want to be close by because there's these ecosystems that get created. But there was a slow and steady migration of directors, setting up their production companies out on the West Coast, buying up small lots of land, and converting automotive shops into, like, these really amazing things. Bruckheimer was out there. There's a couple other people who are establishing shops. So, you, I think Novacom was just a little ahead of the game.

Chris Do: And I think that's the theme with Novacom. If you want to be an innovative person, you have to take some risks. And the signs and the winds were pointing in that direction. The mishap was, one, DreamWorks ultimately didn't open up shop there, and that's a big problem. And number two, you're just a little bit too far ahead, because you moved out there and eventually, there were no more of these kinds of shops in Hollywood, except for one.

Chris Do: And ultimately, they also decided they're going to move west as well. So there were a couple of stragglers and you're using cutting edge technology to tether two boxes together so somebody can watch in real time, which was a crazy concept. I can't remember if it's fiber optic or people tying things with T1 lines.

Chris Do: Now we take it for granted that we have super fast internet these days, but back then guys, you could not run a professional operation through a cable like that, the way that you were doing it.

Ian Dawson: We didn't have email in the way that we have it now or anything like that. So, I mean, that was like a really, you know, to have those types of connections, it was really high end, very expensive, that type of thing.

Ian Dawson: So one thing I would like to touch on in the same thing that it kind of goes from, you know, the transition period, Billy Pittard was really at that time trying to get a lot of the design companies together because what was ending up happening at that time was because acts were being able to be used and design was being able to be done.

Ian Dawson: People were, you heard of the two guys in a garage. Well, that was starting to happen at that time. And a lot of clients started to say, well, I don't want to pay for pitches. This is probably a good theme in your future here, and Billy Pitter wanted to try to stop that, right? He wanted to make it where we had some sort of, not union, but way for us to make it where we have to get paid a minimum amount of money for pitches, and wanted it to be an industry wide thing.

Ian Dawson: And he, he couldn't get kind of all the players together to do that. And so you ended up with a lot of people doing pitches for free from their garage, competing against the high end companies. And ultimately the desktop revolution is what ultimately killed a lot of these high end companies and, and if they diversified into other businesses, then they could potentially survive. But if they kind of stuck to the, what they were used to doing all the time, they would flounder.

Chris Do: I want to get your unique perspective because you're such an industry veteran and we can see a lot clearer looking backwards. So you're one of the hottest shops. You're one of two main companies. It's fascinating. And I want to just pin this and then we'll move on from this is that from Novacom. You guys wanted to do live action because it was sexier, it was cool, and they're working with actors, and it was a different thing that they were doing. But that work was not profitable.

Ian Dawson: I think also because a lot of the creatives wanted to diversify their own work, right? So they wanted to learn how to direct and get to play with film, and, you know do stuff so-

Chris Do: yeah, and I bet and I can't speak on any kind of authority on this, but I bet Peter Sullivan was thinking we needed more graphics work because they're just raking in the cash. So it's always the grass is greener syndrome.

Chris Do: And I know this from my own experience because when we're just doing end tags, I'm like, I want to do something else. Can somebody else give us something to do? It's the nature of the creative beast to want to do weird, wild things that are not profitable in any of your own self interest. But anyways, I want to ask you this, from being at the height of where I could see it, to being closing and shutting down, what were a couple of lessons learned from the inside, from that perspective? Like, what would you have done differently, knowing what you know now?

Ian Dawson: I tried to get the owner of the company at the time, John Ridgway, who I really loved to think about diversifying the business and get more into actual commercial production. I had the ability through my ex wife and others to get some people in there, Paul Hunter.

Ian Dawson: And, and we had a flame artist, Nick Piper, who was very interested in directing live action. And we could have easily marketed and gotten music video work and and commercial work. If we had just made an effort because we could design it all, we could finish it all. We just didn't have the directors on staff necessarily to pitch.

Ian Dawson: But imagine, you know having a director be able to just, you know, walk over to a couple of designers and sit and work on boards and conceptual ideas that didn't kind of really exist. They were two separate worlds at that time. So have we gotten into doing more commercial production? I think the company might even still be around.

Ian Dawson: I also think that there was a couple of guys at the company who were doing DVD. Menuing work, which was very kind of just taking off and they ended up leaving and starting their own company, Matt Kennedy and Jason Wan did that. And, you know, had those things been able to be kept within the company and the company have the vision to support those things inside of it, I think it would have for sure lasted longer.

Chris Do: In hindsight, moving to Playa at that point, good idea, bad idea?

Ian Dawson: I mean, I think it was a good idea. We needed the space. I think that they just didn't expand into the space. You know, like I said, if they had diversified into these other areas, I think they would have expanded into the space. And John didn't really want to do it because his thing to me was oh, well, I don't know that. And I don't think it makes a lot of money. And I was like, what are you talking about? Commercials make a ton of money, especially when you're doing it like kind of from soup to nuts, right? Yeah. You may only make. 20 percent on the live action or whatever, right? Marking that up. But you're doing all the post and you're also coming up with the creative. There's a lot of money there.

Chris Do: Yeah. Well, sadly, he was wrong. He was wrong about that.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. Well, you live and you learn, right? So hindsight, like we're talking about is, is always 20-20, so. He had his reasons, whatever they were. I wasn't the owner and you can only advise somebody so much and give them, you know, I'm just a young whippersnapper at that time, so.

Chris Do: You're a guy with a lot of ideas, and you, you're rocking the boat, probably.

Ian Dawson: I was. I was.

Chris Do: Yeah, so, in some ways, the company was very forward thinking, and in some ways they weren't. It's wild. It's like, I guess you can only be innovative in so many different ways and then you stop. But there was something that was coming up.

Chris Do: It's called the desktop video revolution that follows desktop publishing. And there was a guy, a young man, his name was Flavio Campa. And he's one of these early pioneers, this Italian designer who's living in L. A., working out of Venice, I believe. And I met his producer and he was using like video vision boards and using Premiere to do animation and design things that was not meant to do, but he was doing it.

Chris Do: And we're marking the shift in this, this kind of technological revolution, which was, we're putting powerful tools in the hands of designers versus operators. I don't want to call them that, but there are people who understood how to use the tools when there are these designers and artists who didn't have the tools.

Chris Do: And when those two worlds came together, of course, the best art and design always wins at that point, right? So they didn't see that coming. They did not shift enough, but it comes down to this thing. I think retention of talent is probably the biggest thing because the industry can go any which direction.

Chris Do: But I remember Nick Piper, Nick Piper was like directing commercials and music videos, doing big things with visual effects, because I remember sitting in one of those bays when people are working, looking at the work, like jaw dropping, like, I don't even know how this is done. There's a level of technical prowess here that I'm just not even understanding.

Chris Do: Because remember, I'm just barely out of school myself just watching this. And if they could have grown a team of directors, brought in some desktop stuff, and diversified into commercials and main, perhaps main titles, they could have been more prepared to shift with the changing winds. And the one thing that we know, because we've both worked on commercials and broadcast packages, commercials are quick, high paying, fast paced, and don't have a ton of deliverables. You basically turn over the package of maybe some supers and that's it. Broadcast packages, oh my god, the list of things you have to deliver. Out of control. Bumpers. Interstitials.

Ian Dawson: Although that's changed a little bit because of, of internet deliverables and those types of things. You have lots of different aspect ratios, but yeah, generally for commercials. Yeah. But generally back then, for sure, that was totally the case.

Chris Do: Yes. But back in the day, basically, if you delivered a tape, a master, digital master, we would open it up and it's like, there's English one with and without supers. And that was it. That was our run list. And I saw, because from, I think it was Telesign, the list was like, folded out of the box. It was like, oh my god. There's, I don't want to say 300, but there were a lot of elements. And I was thinking,

Ian Dawson: Oh, there could easily be 300 elements. Oh, for sure.

Chris Do: Right? Lots of stuff to do. So from a profitability point of view, if you can get something done quicker, and there's less deliverables, less things to go wrong, less grinding of the machine, it would have been much, much more profitable.

Ian Dawson: And I also think it would have supported artists development, which I think was really important, right? Artists wanted to learn how to do different things, whether it be get on desktop or or become directors or whatever it is, and if you can give them a path through your company to do that, the more app they're willing to stay at your company because you're supporting them in those endeavors.

Ian Dawson: But I would like to get back because you did mention somebody who unfortunately passed away during COVID, which was Flavio Campa, and I was very good friends with Flavio. He actually worked with David Carson and Flavio was definitely one of the first people using After Effects and Cosa. There was another gentleman named David Spargrove.

Ian Dawson: Called Sparky, that was his name. David was a magician at that, at Cosa After Effects. Everybody was trying to book David Spargrove for a project at the time. Those two guys were definitely pioneers. I'm not saying there weren't others, but I'm glad you mentioned them.

Chris Do: Yeah, CompaVisions, I remember. Flavio, especially.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, unfortunately, when he was in the hospital, I was sending him texts and we were texting him. But yeah, that was a sad story, unfortunately, but that we lost a great guy and he was, you know, in his fifties, so way too soon. But those two guys basically had a huge impact. They were the first real creative animators working on. I mean, a lot of times they didn't even design anything. They just sat on the, you know, like a lot of artists do now. They'll just sit in After Effects and do the design.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. And I remember during this time getting three quarter inch demo reels and tapes and, well, forget about it. Look it up, guys. Look it up. There was Tomato who's bursting on the scene, Compavision influencing a whole generation of motion design artists. There was this, these Radio Scotland spots that it was like just gorgeous typography with the Scottish accent and it was just beautiful and seeing all these works. And I was just collecting these demo reels and dubbing and just making sure we need to study this stuff. It's incredible work and it was just like an amazing time to be alive back when we're still doing things at NTSC. Pausing there, I want to jump forward in time because we got to get to eventually where you are today, but okay.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, we could go on for a long time here, but-

Chris Do: we can't, it could be a 15 hour episode, everybody, because there's so much common history between Ian and I in terms of our own timeline and our progression, but ultimately, that world starts to open up to desktop design, two guys in a garage. There wasn't two guys and it wasn't a garage, but I would say like, yeah guilty.

Chris Do: We were doing it. I wasn't doing it for free, wasn't doing it for low cost, but there was this new kind of energy being put out there and people always want the new new. And they don't want to pay for these rooms and things like that. So Ian and I, we do a dance. There was a, a period of time when I'm like, Ian, are you free and available?

Chris Do: And you're like, uh, yeah, I think so. And, or, I try to hire you, you want to be hired, but we just couldn't get it to work. But we do work with each other. I want to share a story with everyone. It's like, we were working with a director named Robert Howes. He's a designer turned director. He has a very unique vision, and we worked on several music videos with him.

Chris Do: I love working with Robert. He's a British guy. And Ian, you were in the office at the time helping us to produce work. And there's a couple things I want to say about you, and hopefully I don't embarrass you here, is Ian is a professional. And I need to explain to you what that means, is he's there to do a job.

Chris Do: He wants to make sure, he has a fiduciary responsibility to the company at BookedM to make sure it's run, it's run properly, that people are doing the work that they say they're going to be doing and paying them, and also to make sure that it's profitable. But there's a couple things I really love about you, and I will share it to anybody who wants to hear, which is, You always say something like this.

Chris Do: Here's what I think we should do. Here's what you want to do. And you've heard my bit. I work for you. You make the decision. And I respect that to the, just the bottom of my, just my fiber, my being, because you're saying, I'm not going to just not say something. I'm going to say what needs to be done. But at the end of the day, it's your ass on the line.

Chris Do: It's your decision. You have the right to be wrong. And I respect it no matter what you decide. And we will do what you want. And I think you continue that on everywhere you go, because it's part of who you are. Number two, is I remember there was a freelancer, I can't remember who it was, who messed up on something.

Chris Do: And you walked over to him, and you said something, like, you know you messed up on this thing. And he giggled, like he didn't take it seriously. And you said, well, wouldn't it be funny if I didn't pay you for today? And his face wasn't smiling anymore, and I was like, And I had to come up with, oh, thanks for doing that.

Chris Do: But you know, they're creatives and they're going to get spooked. And then that's the end of that. Right. And the last thing I want to share with you is this is we book people, freelancers. Even executive producers, producers. And when the booking is over, there's always this funny kind of feeling like, uh, what else, what else?

Chris Do: And it creates this uneasy tension for me. But I remember coming up to your maybe second or last day, you walked over to me and said hey, it was a pleasure working with you. I appreciate the opportunity. You shook my hand and said, if there's something else, let me know. I just enjoy the work experience.

Chris Do: And it created such an impression on me that I go around telling the story to people and said, I don't care what Ian felt about us. If he thought we were jerks, if we treated him well or not, but he always was a professional. And that's what professionals do. They don't try to guilt you into things. They don't try to like, well, you know, it could have been better if we did this and you never listened to me.

Chris Do: And that way, no matter what happens in the future, somebody's like, Hey, you know, somebody good. I'm like, yeah. Ian Dawson, which leads us to the poker story in a little bit. And I just want to say that with people, especially even you guys who are not so young anymore, you just wear your heart on your sleeves and shoulders and you can't contain yourself.

Chris Do: If you feel slightly disrespected, you're going to act in a weird way. My business mentor, Kira, always told me you can feel whatever you want, but they need to walk away with the impression that you enjoyed the process and you're a professional, always. And that's who you are, Ian. Please.

Ian Dawson: Well, thank you. I have this perspective, and always have, that if this was my company, how would I want somebody to act in that position? So everything that I have done comes from that point of view. And I hold other people, or I try to hold other people to those same standards. Because look, whoever the owner is, yourself or whoever, you know, you have money on the line, you have your business, your reputation, you're out there putting it all on the line.

Ian Dawson: I'm not. I'm working for you for paycheck. And I need to respect the fact that your whole livelihood is based on how well company is doing and everything about it. Look, I have good and bad reputations in this business based on, you know, depending on who it is that you talk to, I make sure that people understand that they have a job to do, but I'm also trying to be as supportive as possible to everybody.

Ian Dawson: But when I see something that's not right and that I don't think is the right thing, I'm going to say something. And, you know, some people understand that and are. I guess mentally to, to get that and others aren't and they take offense to, to some of those things. But I look at it as again, I'm, I'm the eyes and ears and, and working for the owner of the company and they can't be there.

Ian Dawson: And they're entrusting me to be there to, to make sure these things are getting done. So I want to do that, but also have a good time doing it and work with the best possible people I can. So, and I've been lucky enough, boy, I've been lucky enough to work with some really, really great people. So I appreciate you saying that, Chris, because this business, even though it's grown so much as a small It's a small business still, and you know, you're always going to have people in life that like you and other people in life that don't like you and you just have to go do what you think is right.

Chris Do: So a couple more things about my friend Ian here, and you might be thinking oh, Chris, grow up, you know, what's going on? Why is this so special? Because when you see someone do something that is different, it stands out. And I'll tell you, I've worked with producers and executive producers who are overbearing, who is my way or the highway, and are super aggressive.

Chris Do: And then I've also worked with producers and executive producers who are like, kind of like tiptoey, kind of squeaky mice, and always doing what the clients want, just a pushover. I'm like, I don't want either one of them. I want somebody to be tough, to have my back. When the time is necessary and to be soft when it's necessary and to understand the needs of creative people.

Chris Do: We work in a creative industry. They don't need to be infantilized, but they need to be treated a little bit differently. We're not working in a factory. And to be able to thread that needle is an important thing. And I remember, I think Kyle asked me, So what's Ian's story? What's going on with him? And I think that just leads us to our poker night.

Chris Do: But I said, you want somebody who's tough, who will tell you like it is, but follow your orders if that's what you lay down. Do you want somebody who's going to help you make money and just not let the clients have their way? He's your guy. And if that's not what you want, then don't work with him. And he goes, okay.

Chris Do: And then next thing you know, you guys are working together for, oh, I don't know, eight years or something like that. And I want to say that there's some kinds of producers who like phone it in. And what do I mean by that? Literally phone it in. We have a deadline and they're like, I got to go. And they go home.

Chris Do: Then that leaves me as the owner. Okay, so who's gonna make sure that we did what we promised we're gonna do? And I would say that the world's cut in half. There's the ones who are gonna stay to the end, and the ones who, who talk a good talk and they're at home in bed by 8 p. m. And Ian is not that kind of guy.

Chris Do: So you're sitting there in the trenches with the, the team, the boys and the girls, and you're there like, okay, what do we need? And you're there to support them. Let me go get dinner for you guys. Let me, we got to get an asset, a file. Okay, let's, that's what producing is. Producing isn't just like making sure at the beginning and then it's okay.

Chris Do: It's like all the steps in between. And that's where I think you build a relationship with the team where they're like, God, other people are just gone. But you're here with us and you might be hard on us from time to time, but we know you care about the product. You're really here to support us. And if nothing else, there's respect there. So that's me giving you your flowers.

Ian Dawson: Thank you. I appreciate that. And I hope, look, I hope artists who I have pissed off along the way have realized that

Chris Do: there might be a few.

Ian Dawson: Oh, I'm sure that I know there are. But I hope they've realized, you know, working at other places and working with other people and whatever, that maybe he wasn't bad, like you're saying Chris, but I can't even count on hands the number of times I've done all nighters or stayed very late or whatever.

Ian Dawson: I mean, it's, it's just kind of at times when it's crunch time, you have to deliver. And you know, your word is everything, whether it be to a client or the owner or that artist or whatever. Your, if I can impart one thing for people, your word is everything. If you say you're going to do something, you have to do it.

Ian Dawson: You have to own up to if it's a problem, you have to tell people what's the problem. You have to tell them how you're going to solve it. All of those things, trying to get around that it's not doing anybody any good. And that was one of the things working with Kyle, you know, he, he would always say to the people who work with him, like I've availed myself to this client.

Ian Dawson: So I have to make sure, you know, it's on me, it's my name, it's my reputation. So if somebody didn't want to do anything or somebody wanted to go home or whatever it was, it was all on him, in his mind. I mean, it wasn't, he had support, but in his mind, it's, it's all on him. It's his business, it's his name, in his case, it's his future reputation.

Ian Dawson: Because Kyle is a, a name that is going to go down in history for all of the things that he has done, and he wants that reputation to, to remain. And so he really cared about the work that left his building and the clients that he worked with. It wasn't just about money for him at all. Money was a means to the end of creating great work for him.

Ian Dawson: Whereas for me, I want great work, but I also need to make sure the business runs and that you can keep doing that great work. That's why you have me here. But for him, As the owner and you know, you too, I'm sure like there are projects you just want to do. It doesn't matter how much money this is going to cost me.

Ian Dawson: I, I want to do this. I've availed myself to this client and I really liked the project and I'm going to do whatever it is that it's going to take to do it. So you have to have that balance of those jobs and the other jobs that just make you money so that you can do all the things that you really like to do creatively.

Ian Dawson: And they're not, you know, they're not all those kinds of projects. So I think I was telling you at lunch, like there's you know, one of the biggest things for me that I try to tell artists, young artists, is, you know, you're not really creating art here, and I know it's a terrible thing to, for people to hear, but, you know, art is something you do when you're passionate about something, and you create whatever it is you want, and hopefully then somebody recognizes it and wants to pay you for it, right?

Ian Dawson: But you didn't do it because somebody was going to pay it. Pay you for it. You did it because it's what you were passionate about. We're in the creative services business. So people are paying you to do something. They are commissioning you to create something that they want. And they're, they're wanting your input into it. And they're wanting your skills and everything into it. But it's not art in that traditional sense. It is artistic for sure, but it is not art by definition.

Chris Do: I'm on the same page as you.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. I think people mess that up, especially young people coming out of school, I think, and, you know, they want it to be their way, you know, and we can get into more of that conversation. But I think that's a big thing for people to, to understand is you are working for a client that has, you know, particular things that they need.

Chris Do: Yeah, I think it's deceptive in the, to be a creative person and to accept money from somebody to do a job that you promised you would do. And then to do completely disregard what they want and you just do what you want, at least be honest about it.

Chris Do: I think there's a purity in art that you just make stuff and you don't really care if you, you sell it or you don't sell it. It's nice when you sell them, but that's not why you made it. It's comes from a place of self expression and need to get something out of your creative soul. And it's a very different thing when you agree to take somebody's money to solve their problem.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. And I also do understand though, and you know, this is the part where I'm sympathetic to artists a lot is every day coming up with something new and something different and something that's unique and, you know, addresses a client problem and all of those things that is not easy. I thought I wanted to be an artist when I sat next to Chris Williamson on one of my first days and he was on the paint box.

Ian Dawson: I thought I wanted to be a paint box artist and a designer. And then I realized I'm never going to be as good as he is. I don't have anywhere near the chops that this guy has. And to every day, I have to come up with something that clients are going to want to pay you for. That is really, really difficult.

Ian Dawson: And so I'm there to support them trying to do that as much as possible within this box that we have of needing to make money, giving the client what they want, giving artists the freedom and time to come up with what they need to do. It's a real balancing act, realistically.

Chris Do: Before we get into VR and augmented reality, especially in light of some of the news coming out of Apple, I wanted to talk a little bit about the state of the industry as it pertains to broadcast design is, I think the four that you had mentioned or referenced before, the four big companies, are any of them still around?

Ian Dawson: No, I don't think so.

Chris Do: I don't think so either.

Ian Dawson: Lee Hunt and Associates.

Chris Do: I wrote it down by the way.

Ian Dawson: Ali is still around. He's, I think, still consulting and doing that kind of stuff.

Chris Do: With a giant big company or just as a consultant?

Ian Dawson: No, no, I don't think, yes, I think he's more just a consultant.

Chris Do: So are there any big broadcast design studios left?

Ian Dawson: Yeah, I mean, well, big? I don't know if they're that big. Well, I mean, two guys that used to be at Novacom, who I think you know, Nick, Denopoly and Marco Bastich, they have a little company called Drive Studio. They do a lot of sports branding. They're very, very good. Marco was, you know, to me, he's probably the best compositor, especially on Henry that I've ever seen.

Ian Dawson: But I'm, you know, he's not on the Henry anymore, but, and Nick was an amazing designer too. That's actually just really briefly, you know, we, we talk about artists and their time, you know, that was a really big kind of bone of contention between, Nick and I, because Nick always wanted more time and to, I can't just design in a day or two.

Ian Dawson: I have to have my time. You only have a certain amount of time, right? Just generally. So trying to do that and work with artists, put that box around them is, is why I can tell you it's the most difficult thing and probably where the most tension lies between a producer, executive producer and. The artists that have to create the work, but amazing.

Ian Dawson: Those two guys are amazing. And, and as far as other companies that do that, I mean, I, I mean, I know there's tons of them out there that are doing that, but then I think the thing is, is they're not just broadcast design studios anymore. And I think that's the big difference, you know,

Chris Do: Yeah, it was like a lot of dominoes falling. So Novacom eventually shatters and then Pitter got embroiled in some kind of financial scandal. And then there are offshoots, the children of these companies. I think Three Ring is one of them. They go out of business. Everybody goes out of business.

Ian Dawson: Well, it's very hard to stay in business doing this. I mean, there's a lot of, a lot more competition. Everybody's undercutting everybody, which, you know, is, they don't realize, I mean, everybody's trying to get the work and make a living, but they don't realize they're actually hurting themselves in the long run. Right. So I think Billy Pitter did have it right to try to get a, some sort of organization together where we could all talk about these types of things and not price fix, but set some standards in the industry that would have helped everybody. But unfortunately that didn't happen.

Chris Do: Why don't you think that happened?

Ian Dawson: I think it was just the time when artists were like, screw that I'm going out and I can use After Effects in a, in a Mac and sit at my house and do this. Why do I have to listen to you guys at the big companies trying to stop me from doing that?

Ian Dawson: But the. I think they just didn't realize that, yeah, that you have a potential advantage right now, but all that you're doing is reducing you know, the cost to the clients that is going to, you know, you're going to have that same competition here very soon is basically the idea. And it's been a race to the bottom. I mean, let's, let's face it. It's, it's a race to the bottom. It still is even, even now, you know,

The Futur: it's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

Chris Do: Are you committed to making 2024 your best year in business? We want to help you make it happen with expert guidance, a supportive community and exclusive trainings. The Futur Pro Membership was created to give you everything you need to take your business to the next level. Go to thefutur.com/pro to learn more and join us inside. Okay. Back to the conversation.

The Futur: And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation.

Chris Do: Basically, everybody who wants to standardize and have some kind of professional practice, a guild, are the people who are established, who have a lot to lose when it's a race to the bottom. And then the generation that is, I'm just getting started. I can't ask for the kinds of money you're asking for.

Chris Do: And, and, and if I do, I won't get the work. So it becomes a battle and it's like we're, we're the crabs in a bucket trying to fight for survival. We're all going to get cooked, but everybody's out for their own self interest. And there was a period in time when I started to talk to my contemporaries and like, screw you, we're going to go after our job the way we know how to.

Chris Do: And so our own short sightedness prevented anything like this from happening, but it's quite unique. Illustrators have some kind of protection for their art. They own it. They can't just give it away. They license it to you. Photographers, they're artists and they have protection. Artists, clearly art, and they have protection. But for some reason, designers don't have any such protection.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, and there are no residuals. And, you know, look, if you're in the visual effects world, You know, they've been crying, we have, we, I've been in it too, is crying about the fact that there's no residuals, these, these movies make hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, and they're literally squeezing people for the work, and it becomes a cycle, and we're in one of those actually right now, and the strikes don't help, and And all of those other things. So people just need to realize that what goes around comes around. It just does. It's just the way life way of life.

Chris Do: What do you mean when you say it comes around and goes around?

Ian Dawson: What comes around goes around, meaning you, okay, you want to do this thing for cheap right now because you need the job and whatever. But you know, the reality of it is, is you've just created a new market, a new pricing structure, which then everybody has to follow, which now you're going to competing it. Just keeps going down and down and down, you know, in terms of the race to the bottom and, you know, obviously if you're really good at what you do and, and you are at the top of your field, you can try to demand more money for it and hopefully there will be more demand for you.

Ian Dawson: But as we've seen, there's just more and more people doing this. And there are a lot of good people doing this work. So people in corporations and whatever have the feeling that, well, if that guy's not available, I'll just get this guy. It's not about necessarily all as much like, Oh, I've got to have. this amazing artist to do this work for me.

Chris Do: You have children. Our children are of similar age, not too far apart. If they wanted to get into this industry, what would you tell them?

Ian Dawson: I mean, having any skill is a great skill. Being an artist and having an art skill is a great thing. And I don't think that'll ever go away. Whether you want to be an editor or you want to do After Effects or, you know, whatever.

Ian Dawson: I think though, the heyday of making a lot of money in our business, as an individual doing it. Yes, you can do it. As a company, I think it's very, very hard to do that. There's just too much pressure and not enough work, I think, for that. But, to be more clear, I would always encourage, as I am now, my kids, they're both very artistic.

Ian Dawson: One's a musician and one's a photographer and writer. Unless you're at the top of your field in either one of those, it's going to be hard to make a living. So, all you can do is, you know let them understand that, but you want to support them, right? You want to give them the support. You don't want anybody crushing anybody's dreams.

Ian Dawson: Cause you never know they could be that one in a billion or whatever it is. But I think everything in society is going to change. I think with AI, a lot of things are going to change and it's not just about the art business and graphics and all that. I think so many industries are being disrupted right now.

Ian Dawson: I'm more worried in general about, yeah, how are they going to make money? If you're not a prompt engineer, how are you going to make money in the future? You know, if you're not a coder and you're not a prompt engineer and you're not a doctor. And you don't grow food, all the things that are, are truly needed to survive, then it's going to be hard to make money.

Ian Dawson: I'm more worried about that societally than I am even just for my kids in a particular area. And I think you can, you know, AI is a big controversy right now, right? Like, oh, it's going to take over people's jobs. And I don't necessarily see it as totally taking over people's jobs. I see it as reducing the amount of work that is going to be needed from those people, which means there will be less money going to individuals to do that work. And so if there's a certain amount of a pie and it takes less time to do any portion of that, there's going to be, the pie generally isn't going to get any bigger. So it just means that there's more smaller, teeny little slices versus bigger slices for people, which makes it harder and harder to make a living that we're used to is I guess where I'm going for.

Chris Do: Well, I think it's a fool's errand to look at what has happened in the past and say, well, let's replicate that thing again, because once he catches up to the current timeline, it's not a good place. So you're like, well, dad, didn't you have a great career doing all these things and making a ton of money doing X, Y, and Z?

Chris Do: But those times don't exist anymore. Those conditions don't exist anymore. So if you follow that exact path, you're not going to find the same opportunities. And we both as parents, assuming you love your children, like I love my children, we don't want them to suffer. And knowing that one day we're not going to be there to help them, and we're trying to get them to be autonomous, they need to figure out a way that they can live a fulfilled life that's in alignment with their values, and hopefully to find some financial reward at the end of all those efforts.

Chris Do: And so I would warn everyone right now, if you're in the production aspect of things, what AI is very good at doing is production. And it would be enhanced and ultimately optimized to a point in which you may or may not be needed. And the work of 20 can be done by one. And so if you're the one, great. If you're the 19, you're kind of screwed.

Chris Do: But here's what I think. So we've gone upside down on this world in a good way. So it used to be we would pay top dollar to get artists to build you the supreme expression of an idea. So the compositing, the color grading, it's 8 bit, it's 10 bit, it's 12 bit color depth. It's not just NTSC, it's HD, no it's 4K, it's not 6K, it's 8K.

Chris Do: And that was the game. to create in higher fidelity. But the game has totally turned upside down as far as I'm concerned, because with social media, we actually create something different where it's an always like a course correction from going from super high end, glossy looking visuals made by a team of an army of people to, I want to have an intimate conversation with a person and I don't want the technology to get in the way.

Chris Do: And so there are a lot of people, authors, writers, content creators who need help. in making visuals, in telling stories. And they're not looking for high end visual effects and fidelity. They're looking for, is it intimate, is it real, is it authentic, and is it telling the story? So editors who find themselves out of work, say, trying to cut commercials, can get a ton of work cutting content for YouTube, for Instagram, for TikTok, those kinds of things.

Chris Do: So one thing that my coach, Keira McLaren, would always tell me is like, what is it that you really do? It's not so much that you create commercials. It's that you know how to make compelling images, whether it's print, if it's small, or if it's a billboard, you know how to make real exciting visuals. So re rack your brain.

Chris Do: Don't look at so much the application, but look at is that what is it you're ultimately doing? And if you can find that, then you'll be safe. Because there is the need for this. And I'm seeing people do really, really well.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, even, even from the advertisers, advertising agency side of things, I can't tell you how many times I've heard, well, just shoot it on the iPhone.

Ian Dawson: Cause they only have five grand or less or whatever. And my elderly thinking is why would you do that? You know, they try to explain to you that, well, we want it to be authentic as if this person was really doing this on their phone. It's not about the fidelity or anything else about it. It's about, we want the authenticity of it being like somebody did it on their phone.

Ian Dawson: And we know that doesn't cost nearly as much money, so we don't want to pay you as much money to do it. And that's really what it's coming down to, because everybody's not watching TV as much. They're watching their phone, or their iPad, or whatever it is. And a lot of it's, you know, 15 seconds or less. And you can decide whether that's good or bad, but the reality of it is, it's here.

Ian Dawson: It doesn't matter whether you think it's good or bad. It is what exists. And so your job is to figure out how to supply that and what they need still, you know, to be the problem solver to make it happen for them.

Chris Do: I think it's a mistake for creative people out there to sell the technology that they use versus selling themselves. Because you're going to fall down that rabbit hole. It's like, so you're saying you're going to pay me a tenth of the cost because we're not using a Red, but we're using an iPhone. Okay. So that's me selling equipment rentals. It's selling digital technical assistance or whatever we call them. We're not selling the vision, which is I don't care if I pick up a Red or an iPhone.

Chris Do: You're paying because I'm the one who's telling the story, and I'm going to tell it in a certain way that only I can tell. For that, you're going to pay me the same price. It doesn't matter. It's nominal, the difference, in terms of the price you're going to pay me. And that's how I look at it. So if you, if you wind up selling, Oh, I'm using a fancy Macintosh or PC with these, you're selling the wrong thing.

Ian Dawson: I totally agree with you. The hard part is getting the client to understand that and be willing to do that because, and it's gotten even more difficult because the client tends to be now a younger producer who's grown up in this world and they don't have the same experiences or even knowledge of what was done in the past and their view is, well, I can do this with, I've been making TikTok videos on my phone for whatever, you know what I mean?

Ian Dawson: Like. What makes you so special? That is the hard battle there. And I know you talk about that a lot in The Futur. And I think story is a huge aspect of it. Still being creative is a huge aspect of it. Just because you can pick up the phone and make a TikTok video or Instagram video. It's great. You need people that can make that content, but you still have to be compelling, you still have to be unique.

Ian Dawson: You still have to have a perspective. You still have to come up with what's going to make it interesting for people to buy that product, let's say, or whatever. ROI is a huge three letters in our business, especially on the advertising side right now, because. It's not easily quantifiable, and there's a huge thing going on right now about, like, how much, how much ROI are we getting for really spending this money?

Ian Dawson: There's a lot of wanting to have the analytics aspect of these conceptual ideas. And I think I could definitely see a business model changing where ROI becomes the most important thing and you get rewarded for the ROI and you don't get rewarded. If you don't get the ROI, I think there's a business model there and that will make cream rise to the top as well.

Ian Dawson: Right? So it's just a different way of, of doing it. I think people will get paid for doing it. Their costs will be taken care of, but they won't get their, uh, profits, if you want to call it that, until you, it's been proven that your conceptual idea actually turns into sales or whatever it is that is the metric that they need.

Chris Do: Just so our audience understands, it's not a far flung idea, some crazy thing that's happening in, in la la land, but I don't know, Ian, do you know of a company called Sandwich Video?

Ian Dawson: No, I don't. I haven't heard of it.

Chris Do: Okay. You might want to take note of that.

Ian Dawson: I am going to.

Chris Do: Sandwich Video has a very interesting story from what I recall. So there's a young guy and he's making videos and he's trying to help people get their projects kickstarted successfully. So he kind of writes and because it's low budget he stars in these videos and he makes them. And guess what? They make a ton of money. And if he does this a couple of times, he's like, wait a minute.

Chris Do: Why am I just selling this as a service? Then he eventually negotiates and leverages. I don't want to get paid. I want a piece of the company. And people agree. So it takes a person with a bold idea and to have some proof and belief in themselves that they get this. So I don't know if it's the case though, but when I was looking into them, they don't do pay to play.

Chris Do: They're like, I want equity. And then he becomes so popular that he's, he's become an actor himself and he's a spokesperson on TV commercials now. Like, I don't want to say for progressive insurance, but it's like, he's out there because, and it's a strange thing, he's not Brad Pitt. He's an everyday man, bearded, a little heavier, and just like a guy next door.

Chris Do: And he's just good at pitching. He's become like our generation of Billy Mays. He goes in, he does the thing. So he becomes a spokesperson now. And so they have a track record of writing, producing commercials that either get you funded, the ROI stuff, gets your Kickstarter thing. He helps to move the needle.

Chris Do: And because he's got a track record of this, that's where the game is now. Is what you make going to move the needle? And if you can move the needle, you have a lot of different kinds of leverage. That's where you can literally say back to that young art director, Oh, you're good with your iPhone. You don't need me.

Chris Do: Just go make it. What are you going to say to that? It's like, no, I don't know how to make this. And no one's going to give me that opportunity because I don't know what I'm doing. Exactly. That's why we're talking, right?

Ian Dawson: Exactly. Ultimately, everybody's got to become accountable. And this is a way to make people accountable. I don't like it necessarily, but I am a numbers guy. I do budgets all the time and I do everything. So I do understand the idea again, putting myself in their shoes. If I'm spending this money and I never get ROI on my, you know, return on the investment or what you tell me it's going to do and how many hits I'm going to get or whatever. And I never get that. Why do I want to work with you versus somebody else that can get that?

Chris Do: Right. And the people who can get that can command a premium. And I'm okay with accountability, as long as there's upside for both of us. So we set a baseline, you pay for costs, and if it does what it's supposed to do, that also means that you must allow me to direct more than you directing it.

Chris Do: Because my financial future is involved here, because I'm just covering costs. Not for my creativity, not for my input. So if you give me more creative control, you can cover my costs. And if it gets this many views or that much engagement or that many conversions, I have to benefit from that too. That is, I think, the fairest way to structure a deal.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. I mean, you are the client as well at that point. So it's a win win in theory for everybody. Even if it doesn't get the ROI, the client didn't have to spend all the money that they had spent, would normally have spent. You get at least paid for doing the work, but you're not making any profit. And everybody has the potential of an upside.

Chris Do: Yeah, you have skin in the game and that's important. And I think that is a healthier model for both. There's less risk for everybody. And you can try people, you can literally pay them. and they're going to do it economically. They don't need to do it for more because at the end of the day, it's not about the production.

Chris Do: They're going to quickly realize that all that glossiness actually doesn't move the needle and we're going to learn together. So the structure has been created for so long that both the agency and the creative aren't responsible for any outcome. There is no ROI. When you run a TV commercial, who's to say it's done anything?

Chris Do: We have no idea. But now we live in an age where we can measure lots of things, not everything. And we can tie things with cookies and, and counters and analytics that, yeah, why not?

Ian Dawson: And that gets to something you and I had talked about. I think that opens up the world to artists and producers being able to work directly with brands. Not to say that they haven't been doing that, but brands should be more open to working directly with these people and cutting out the ad agencies in the sense that if you are delivering the ROI, you're, it doesn't matter who's doing it, whether it's a big giant conglomerate agency or two guys in a garage, if the two guys in the garage are giving the ROI, you know, producing the ROI.

Ian Dawson: What does it matter? The brand doesn't care. They just want the results because that CMO, they want to keep their job. So your job is to try and make them shine as best as you can. So, you know, again, if you have that perspective that you are working for these people and how would you want to be treated?

Ian Dawson: And you do everything in that. I'm not saying you're going to be successful, but those people will at least recognize that you are trying to do what's right for them. Even if you're not successful at doing the, you know, whatever it is that, that they need at that time. So.

Chris Do: Right. Cause your success is tied. That's the thing. It's tied together. If you succeed, I succeed. If not, then I'm not going to try to sabotage myself. And if I do, I'll be starving and I won't be able to do this for very long. Okay, let's do this. Let's park that part of the conversation. Let's get into the third act of our conversation and let's get into things that are exciting.

Chris Do: Virtual reality, we've heard about this. Meta, the metaspace, the multiverse, whatever. Then there's augmented, mixed reality. There's all kinds of R's in this. VR, AR, MR. So, let's go to the future now. And we've been talking about these things for a long time. Is this like the comeback and the resurrection of 3D films and then the subsequent destruction of 3D films? Where are we in this date?

Ian Dawson: Yeah, I mean, I started doing VR work in 1990, and headsets were $40,000, VPL headsets. Good friend of mine, David Warner, was doing some amazing medical stuff back in that days. Another friend of mine, Bill Rojas, was doing, you know, stereoscopic VR video at that time. It just was too expensive, you know, unless you were Lockheed Martin or, you know, building ships.

Ian Dawson: It was kind of, you know, we think it's untouchable now, an Apple headset for $4,000. Imagine, you know, VR where it's a $40,000 headset. So to give you a little background on this, I was the visual effects supervisor and producer at Prologue on Iron Man, One, two and three, we didn't do as much on and we did a lot of the AR UI fantasy work there. And so when we were done with that, we started getting calls to do more of that work. We started getting calls from government agencies and then, you know, Palmer Lucky ended up getting 2 billion dollars from Facebook to, you know, having put two phones up to his eye. And. I realized, or at least I thought, like, okay, how do we take this fantasy UI stuff that we've been doing in visual effects and try to bring it to the real world?

Ian Dawson: And so kind of my focus was, how do we bring the artist's in our world, the visual effects and design world and the programmers that create apps and these things and, and, you know, bring them together and get them to work together because totally different mindsets there. And it's all producing, but on the side of making apps, it's product management.

Ian Dawson: And on the side of making, uh, uh, graphics and such it's producers. So how do we get these people to talk to each other and have the same language and and work together. And that's kind of been what I've been not solely focused on, but spending a lot of time focusing on over the last 10 to 15 years. And I've done a number of proof of concept pieces for like Hershey's and Reebok and T Mobile and NFL and lots of, you know, probably 20 or so projects in that vein.

Ian Dawson: And, you know, really in every single case. We can technically make the things that we want happen, but the graphics are not quite, weren't quite there yet. And just the engines to drive them couldn't have as many polygons, textures can't be as big, all those, all those fun things. It's basically you're dealing with gaming, but even on a lesser scale than that.

Ian Dawson: So you mentioned Apple and Apple came out with their headset and everybody was anticipating that. And graphically, yes, the graphically, it's amazing. I will say that, but again, people aren't going to pay $4,000 to have two hours of battery life to all, we can go into all the negative things, but it's a developer tool.

Ian Dawson: And I think people don't understand that Apple is going to put out a product and get developers interested in developing for that product and future products. And if consumers end up buying it, wow, fantastic. But I don't think they were even anticipating being a consumer product so much, even though.

Ian Dawson: They're going to still try to sell it that way. I think that graphics wise, it's a whole nother area for designers and animators to get into if they're not. And for years I've been preaching, you know, for people to learn on real, especially the end of the 3D animators. Many of them just said, Oh, I don't want to learn another piece of software.

Ian Dawson: I've got all these pieces of software that I learned. And now they're all wanting to learn Unreal, right? They all realize everything has gone that way, or at least a lot of stuff has gone that way. So, I just think it's, I've always tried to say, hey, there, here's another market for this design family to get into, but you're going to have to learn some new technology and some things because you're going to be working with these other people.

Ian Dawson: It's not just dependent on you anymore. It's you have to work with somebody, you know, these programmers who have their own vision of what can and can't be done. And that's really what it's coming down to in this in this field. And so I try to push those boundaries as much as possible. And it helped that I got to work on Iron Man and had that fantasy UI stuff that changed people's perception, kind of like Minority Report did.

Ian Dawson: And so that has helped me in the field, even though I wasn't the artist and everything, but having that perspective of trying to bring entertainment type work to that field is very important. And I think a lot of people want that and appreciate that and are trying to find ways to support that. Although it's, you know, it's a difficult market in itself right now because there aren't, there isn't a real consumer headset.

Ian Dawson: We can't just go out for a thousand dollars and buy a headset that looks like the you're wearing and have beautiful AR overlays on it. It just doesn't exist right now. And for years, I've been hearing, oh, in five years, oh, in seven years, we're 10 years away, in my opinion, from being like everybody having the glasses instead of an iPhone.

Ian Dawson: But I do think that we can get to the point where the iPhone plugged into a pair of glasses. That isn't as heavy or as big as the Apple Vision Pro is something that we could see within the next five years. So it really just comes down to how cheap they can get these waveguides down and mass produce them and be able to put the Bluetooth and Wi Fi chips in there, but make all the computing either happen in the cloud.

Ian Dawson: Edge compute is that vision where basically all the computing is happening in the cloud and it's just being sent directly to the device, or maybe even in between that is, you know, using the phone as the actual computer system. And so you're just feeding the, the images to the, to the wave guides in the headset.

Chris Do: A couple of things to touch on here is, uh, are you familiar with who Scott Galloway is, Professor G?

Ian Dawson: Yes.

Chris Do: Okay. He's no fan of Mark Zuckerberg. So he says when Zuck bought Oculus, He was very happy because he's like, let that boy, man, child invest and dump as much money into this as possible because it'll slow the rest of his operations down.

Chris Do: Because thus far, there's yet been a dominant headset and a killer app that everybody must have. We're not that state yet. And I think you're right somewhere between five to 10 years from now where this technology becomes so light and transparent that it just can integrate into everything that we do.

Ian Dawson: And by the way, I don't believe in the killer app. The killer app is your operating system, just like iOS. I mean, your Mac operating system. That is the killer app is the fact that you have the ability to move windows around, right? And have a graphical interface in that way. It's not a specific app. It's the operating system that allows you to do whatever it is that you want to do. That is the killer app.

Chris Do: Well, Apple recently announced they're cutting production, that demo requests and demo time is down for the Apple Vision Pro. That does not bode well. It's a. fairly expensive device that I even think at $2,000, I'm not ready to buy it. And I have discretionary income. It's mostly because of the form factor.

Chris Do: It's too big, it's too heavy, and I need something that I'm going to feel good wearing. However, I did see something recently, which got me very excited again. So I don't know how much of this is real, but there is a TikTok reel going around and there's a guy and he's a sneakerhead. And I don't know if you ever see these shorts or, or, or clips on, on the internet where people go to these sneaker shows and they, they're, they're buying very rare, like Jordans that are like $5,000 bucks and they're negotiating and they're like, I have a hundred grand. How much? I want the whole table.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. I want the whole table. Right. Yeah.

Chris Do: Yeah. No, right. It's like, wow, this is crazy content. So it's a young guy. He's actually wearing a headset and he goes, okay, tell me about the shoe. What do you want for them? He goes, I want $1,200. And he's looking at him and he goes, okay, and he's, he's wearing his Vision Pro and he's like pinching and twirling and touching.

Chris Do: And he goes, last auction sold for $900. How much you want for the shoe? He goes, okay, well, I can come down to 950 or a thousand dollars. So they start negotiating real time. He's using real time data over like, he goes, okay, hold on a second. And he holds a shoe up, presumably scanning it for something.

Chris Do: Maybe it's just for fun. Cause it looks good. to see if it's like the real shoe and what anything he's looking out for. And perhaps he's comparing it to authenticated shoe. He goes, okay, it's really, it's good shape. He goes, how about, um, we do this, we flip for it. And he goes, okay. So he goes, if you lose, it's 900.

Chris Do: If you win, it's a thousand or something like that. Cause he wanted it for less, right? So the guy had agreed to 950. He goes, no, I'll pay you 50 over if you win. So the flip for it. He goes, okay. He goes, hey, Siri, flip a coin. And what do you call it? And he goes, okay, it's heads. You win. He goes, you have a Venmo or cash app, right?

Chris Do: This is wild. This is all happening with his headset on. He goes, yeah. So he holds up his phone to the guy's face. He scans and he goes, okay. All right. You have the money. And the guy checks his phone and goes, Yep, here's the shoe. To me, that's the future, Ian.

Ian Dawson: Oh, absolutely.

Chris Do: That is the future. And I can get excited about that right now.

Ian Dawson: I can tell you a lot more. I mean, there's tons of other examples of things that, yeah, I mean, first of all, we're, I'm sitting at a computer right now at a screen, right? Eventually, you're just, it's just on you. Wherever you are, so everything that you're used to doing and then some you can have happen anywhere you are and you can have as big of a screen pretty much as you know, your vision will allow you to have so it's definitely a paradigm shift, which, you know, our kids are going to be much more capable of mentally handling.

Ian Dawson: But my goal is to try to have some influence on that. Whatever small amount that I can while I'm still alive. It's definitely a fun area to be involved in. It definitely takes the skills that I have learned in terms of producing and, and other artists work. And, and I've learned a lot of others in terms of product management and how to structure sprints and stuff like that for software development.

Ian Dawson: So that's been interesting learnings for me. And it's just, you know, unfortunately it's not there yet. It's not cost effective enough yet to miniaturize it to the point where it's a consumer product yet. But I've seen some interesting little consumer products. They just don't have the graphic fidelity.

Ian Dawson: They'll, they'll be limited in terms of it's just one color or it's the color is not very good or the bit depth's not very good or whatever it might be. But if there are things like contacts, they do exist. They're not anything that you and I are going to access anytime soon, but you know, the fact that there are contact lenses that have uh, AR overlay of graphics on them, even if they are just, you know, a green color or whatever is pretty darn amazing. So if you can get it miniaturized to a contact lens, it's just a matter of time before they get it to where it looks like your glasses, your sunglasses, or, you know, your glasses that you're wearing.

Ian Dawson: They haven't proven enough demand yet. And the manufacturing is too expensive. So if anybody's going to, that's why everybody's hopeful about Apple and has been hopeful about Apple is because they have all this cash. And they hope that they will make, keep making that investment. But I, but the same thing, like you said, is developers aren't wanting to develop.

Ian Dawson: And I, there was a, at least the article I read was the Apple's got to make the investment in the developer community. You know, Facebook had to do the same thing. They had to pay for projects to be made so that there was content on there. In their store and Apple's not used to doing that. They're just used to collecting the 30 percent, but they're going to have to reduce that 30 percent and they're going to have to make investments into the applications, even though the headset won't be ready yet for consumer market, they have to drive that market in that way or else it won't, it won't happen.

Chris Do: So I think there's good news and bad news to this. Like I said, it doesn't bode well for Apple and Tim Cook right now, because from what I understand, he's probably getting thinking about retiring. And he wants to have one more hit product post Steve Jobs legacy that he can say it was a hit.

Ian Dawson: To make his stock go up so that he can, like, pull the parachute?

Chris Do: Or legacy. I don't think he can spend the kind of money he already has. That'd be my guess, right? So I think it's about legacy to say, you know, I was in the man's shadow and standing on the shoulder of giants, but this is my contribution, the watch, the Vision Pro, and here's what I think.

Chris Do: I'm in a way glad that it didn't do well, even though I'm an Apple fanboy, true and true. Because I think every giant needs a little humble pie. That they've stood on this, we're the best, we're Apple, screw you, you pay us to play. Here's what I'm thinking. Couple of suggestions, in case anybody from Apple or of influence can, is listening to this conversation between Ian and myself, is, okay, it didn't do well, so you have cut your production in half. That means you're sitting on technology. They said that a new headset is not even being considered into end of 2025. So don't be waiting with baited breath that a newer, lighter, cheaper versions coming up, but they can say one thing and do something else. But I just want to put that out there. What they should do is, you know, what, just give them away.

Chris Do: You can afford at Apple, and here's where you go. You don't look at consumer applications. You look at people in research and engineering and education, and you let them play and you help them. You don't ask for your 30%, you ask for 0% until they make $2 million in sales. Then you can ask for your 30% and you give 'em the support and the toolkit and the team, the brain trust that you have to help them develop things.

Chris Do: When I said killer app. I was thinking app, but I was also thinking about the word application. How do I use this thing in new and novel ways that it's not just a gimmick? Now, $4,000 is a lot, but it's not a lot relative to healthcare, if doctors are using it.

Ian Dawson: Magic Leap and Microsoft realized that there was no consumer market, and that there needed to be, they needed to go after enterprise market. And then they both were competing for, you know, the military, a military contract, which Microsoft ended up winning. But Magic Leap is still pushing to do enterprise work. They're nowhere near at the level in terms of dollar volume that Microsoft is making, because Microsoft's got a billion dollars or two billion dollars or whatever it is from the U. S. government. But enterprise is really the, the place to go. That's where things are getting made. I mean, Shelly Peterson, who, uh, used to work at Lockheed, In the space division, you know, she brought in an AR company to, they have these fasteners on the rockets that were taking weeks to do with lots of manpower.

Ian Dawson: And, uh, you could put on a headset and see exactly where these fasteners go. You can cut the time in the third or even more, which saves millions and millions of dollars for a corporation. So those are the areas where Investing $20,000 in five headsets and another 400, 000 or whatever, in an application, let's say it's a half a million dollars, but you're going to save 20 million, it's a no brainer.

Ian Dawson: So those are the areas where the AR market is right now. And the VR market, yeah, there are people who you can buy an Oculus headset for a meta headset for $399. You can play games. You can work out. It's great. It's fantastic. You know, you can watch videos that are 360 or 180. I think that's great. I think it's terrific.

Ian Dawson: Whether they made their money back or are going to make their money back. No, they probably aren't, but it's a market and there are people who have bought it, big seller during Christmas. There's a vibrant app store. And of course he's trying to make metaverses where people can go in and do stuff and I, I do believe in some of that, especially for brands.

Ian Dawson: And you and I have talked a little bit about that at our lunch, but I do believe that brands are going to have to make their own websites of the future, which are going to be communities that people will go into and engage in and buy things and do lots of other things besides purchasing because it's not about purchasing.

Ian Dawson: It's about the community aspect of, you know, that brand and have it and knowing who your customer is and what type of customer you appeal to. And, and that will create word of mouth and get you more customers and whatnot. I truly believe in that. metaverse right now is a negative word, I think, because everybody just thinks of it in terms of sandbox and metas world and, and those types of things.

Ian Dawson: But I think ultimately we're just at the very, very, I mean, you know, it's like the first website's being created. Eventually, I think every corporation is going to have their own communal website that will be a metaverse. And it will have to be ported to, hopefully, you know, it's not DigiBeta and Betacam again.

Ian Dawson: I mean, Betacam and, and, you know, VHS again, it's, it's literally like, we can come up with one standard that all the headsets are using and, or the web browsers are using or whatever. There is the groups like the Chaos Group and others that are trying to, I mean, Kronos Group and others that are trying to make those standards.

Ian Dawson: I see that as, if you were looking at the future of, where some graphics areas are that incorporate design and 3D and, you know, programming and all of these things. I think those are big areas where there will be need, you know, making avatars and all of these other, you know, environments and all of these other things. So that, sure, AI may help out with a lot of that, but you still are going to need creative people to do it.

Chris Do: Let me make the pitch.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, sure.

Chris Do: I'm gonna pitch this out there. Yeah, because we never know who's gonna listen to this, Ian. So I'm gonna put this out there, everybody who's listening to this. I have a very specific theory and point of view on this, is there's this thing that every product, that every new invention needs to hit critical mass, whereas the more people use it, the more likely more people are going to buy into it.

Chris Do: So right now, developers don't want to make it because they're not enough consumers to buy and use it. So there's this chicken and egg problem. It's like, uh, maybe, maybe this is not the right analog here, but if I have a cell phone and no one else has a cell phone, I guess that doesn't make sense because you can call a landline, but let's pretend like cell phones can only talk to other cell phones.

Chris Do: Like a CB radio, I can only talk to other people who have CB radio. So the more people buy the more compelling it is for us to have it. So let's get away from the selling four headsets into selling hundreds, if not thousands of headsets. And where I see this and speaking very biasly is from a point of view of education, because when you think about four grand, It's a lot of money, but when you think about it as the cost of private art school or private school, that's $24,000 a semester.

Chris Do: My son just convinced us to pay for a study abroad program for a month and it's 10 grand. So relative to that, that ain't nothing. And we have a problem in America, maybe other parts of the world, that our education system is failing us. Why not allow educators to use this for their students to create an experience?

Chris Do: I can't help but to think this, Ian. If you and I were like two really notable speakers, and people were just drawn to us, if we were having this conversation via Vision Pro, where you can experience this in dimensions in which ways that you could not before, everybody always has the best seat because you can move around, and you can see us interact versus a two dimensional representation of ourselves, that would be exciting to a certain group of people.

Chris Do: But we would never do that because who can afford it? Who's going to see it? We would put all this energy and just wouldn't happen. So I say give the headsets to schools, K through 12, undergrad, graduate school, and give it to educators who are pushing the envelope with storytelling, with technology, and let them make the ecosystem for you, with you, and so that now we're not talking about selling 10 or 5, we're talking about thousands at a time, because a school has, what, 1, 200 students, 2, 000 students, you would kind of have adoption in ways that you wouldn't have before, and hopefully what happens is you have a whole generation of people growing up As this is just second nature to them, just like how their smartphones are second nature to them.

Chris Do: You and I grew up and we didn't even have a cell phone in our hands and now our children don't know how to work without it.

Ian Dawson: Yeah, I need a change in my pocket to call on a payphone, right?

Chris Do: There's no more payphones. Superman has nowhere to go because there's no more phone booths for him to go and change anymore.

Chris Do: We don't understand that, everybody. Now, I remember one time, I was looking for directions that I was using Apple Maps. And then Apple said, just hold up your camera. I'm like, what? He said, you hold up your camera, and it's like, turn, turn, right there, go through. That's pretty cool. We need applications that enhance our lives, and if we can have this, I think education makes perfect sense.

Ian Dawson: Education is a big one, and there are a lot of people trying to do education. I mean, it has been proven that students will learn information so much quicker when they feel compelled and they are interacting with what it is that's being taught versus it just, you know, just sitting there and watching or listening to somebody when you are interactively doing it when you are participating in it, that's, you know, some students do like much better in biology lab because they actually are dissecting the frog, right?

Ian Dawson: And they're doing it. It's not not just learning about it in a book. So the more that you turn education into practically seeing its application, even math, like, instead of just teaching people like, okay, here's the equation and whatever, it's like, how does this equation relate to something in life that either I might need, or even if I don't want to become an engineer, how is an engineer using this in real life, right?

Ian Dawson: And if you can do more education in that way, that's what we're missing in schools. Totally. Everything is, I'm going to tell it to you, and then you have to regurgitate it back to me. But there's nothing that gets them involved in how does this relate to real life, even if it's something that I know I'm never going to do in life. I want to see how it relates to, to something in real life. Because maybe that'll spark some interest in me.

Chris Do: We know this. If it's multisensory, you have a higher probability of hitting someone in the way that they learn. Some people are visual, some people are, uh, is it auditory learners? Oral. And then some people are kinesthetic.

Chris Do: And if we're talking about ancient civilizations, let's not look at it in a book. Let's go to the pyramid and not just looking from the outside, but let's walk it together. Let me point out a couple of things.

Ian Dawson: And you can do that. You can bring people anywhere in the world. You can,

Chris Do: you can bring them to the bottom of the ocean.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. And, and all the, there is amazing things you can do with this technology. And there are people who have been doing it. It's just again, the access to it. And so I think you're right, giving, giving the headset away and then getting grants for the developers to develop the actual software that will run on them, that, that are the lesson plans or the experiences that you're going to have.

Ian Dawson: I think that if you were looking at where money is being spent, let's say from the federal government on education, that would definitely be an area where I think the money should be going to. And I think that should be in cooperation with industry. And I think we're missing the boat in that because we do have the technology to do it.

Ian Dawson: It is a little more expensive than what everybody would like, but we can start that now. We can start that process now. And, you know, I think Apple tried to do a little bit of it when they like were giving iPads to the schools and then they had their like coding application. I forgot what it was called, where, you know, it was swift based and it was showing you like you didn't have to physically code, it would show you and you could do it by moving things and then you could then see how it relates to the code. So you're seeing the code at the same time you're like doing the real time manipulation. We need more of that in educational fashion. Totally agree.

Chris Do: So instead of looking at these avant garde technologies as edge case use, exotic applications for a handful of people, let's just make it common every day. That's kind of how we think and work today. And the cost of them versus the retail price is different. So you can afford to give away a lot of units. You can send me 10 of them. You can send me in 10. Let us play and let us distribute the headsets to other people. So we can start developing community.

Chris Do: You have the money. You have more money than God. But here's the cool thing. It creates a secondary market for where this conversation began. And I think we're gonna land the plane here. Which is, if you're a creative person living in 2024, don't chase after commercial production or broadcast packages, even main title design.

Chris Do: You should get into world building. You should be in Unreal. Because there are these hollow decks or hollow space, the sphere, the volume, all these things. But if these headsets become adopted, well, guess what? The teachers don't know how to make Mount Everest. They need someone unreal to pull and replicate this.

Chris Do: They want to build a model of the human body and blood cells. Let them have the tools. Then you create this secondary market for content creators. And that's an exciting world.

Ian Dawson: Yeah. And it's not just entertainment, right? It's everything. So that's one of the things that I've loved about it is that it's not only entertainment, but I get to bring entertainment friends with me, is that it's an enterprise thing, or it's something for a medical company, or it's something for T Mobile or whatever. It's an enterprise thing, but it needs people who have done design and 3D animation and, and all of these things and brings them into that world, which is exciting because it's just diversifies again, as an individual the types of work that you can do. So you're not just stuck on oh, I only design broadcast work, or I only do commercials or whatever. No, there's a whole other world out there. You just have to get connected to it. And maybe you are the person that's going to create that amazing new educational app or whatever it is that that drives it. You don't have to wait for other people. It is truly accessible for everybody. And I think even more so now, you can, you can team up with other people that have similar interests, but are different, different backgrounds. You know, whether programmers and UI people and UX people and 3D people and whatever else.

Ian Dawson: Everything happens in a team, especially in these things. Not everybody's going to have, know every single aspect of it, or at least very few are. So you got to work in a team, and there's give and take in those teams, you know. I try to make it now where software is not driving the product. The design is driving the product, because I'm coming from that side of the world.

Ian Dawson: That doesn't mean that the designers are going to get everything that they want in the design that they've come up with. But you want to work with programmers that are going to try to get to as close as that as possible and not just be the no people all the time. So that's new for them too. They're used to pulling off a piece of code off the internet that already exists or whatever, and plugging it into this thing so that they don't have to spend the time to think about how to do that.

Ian Dawson: It's already been thought of by somebody else. Well, a lot of these things are, are new ideas, new things. Creatives come up with new ways to do things that aren't just A to B. And finding developers that are fluid in that way and understand that process is important and part of the process. And just as much as a designer realizing that just because you can create everything doesn't mean that it's affordable and that you can, you know, that you have the time and the money to do it either. It's a balance, truly is a balance in that regard.

Chris Do: I can go on and on and on, but I'm looking at it. We're at two hours in our recording here, which is, uh, I think we're breaking a new record here in terms of how long the recording is. This is wonderful. And why don't we leave them potentially wanting more?

Ian Dawson: For those of you interested in VR and AR, we have a special opportunity here in LA, at least, because Augmented World is going to be this year in Long Beach. I'm going to be on a panel there, but you should definitely go if you're in the LA San Diego, Orange County, or if you can come to LA, it's really a great show.

Ian Dawson: It's kind of the, the big show for AR and the VR world. They do have a little, some booths with people showing off their wares, but the, the talks are really amazing. The panels are really amazing. You know, you've got John, you've got people like John Gaeta there from the Matrix. Who's totally into VR and AR work.

Ian Dawson: And I'm on a panel with a guy named Tom Furness and a company called Red6. Tom is like the grandfather of AR. So, it's just, uh, I highly recommend if you're interested in that stuff to go there or see some of these things online.

Chris Do: When is that, Ian?

Ian Dawson: That is June 17th through 20th, I believe.

Chris Do: Okay.

Ian Dawson: So it's coming up. It's not cheap to attend, but I can give you a code for 20 percent off, Chris, if you want to share that with your

Chris Do: Okay. Yeah, I'll drop in the show notes.

Ian Dawson: It's a great community. I want to support them, but they, there's a lot of people from lots of different disciplines there. Which is what makes it unique, you know, you have entertainment, you have the enterprise people, you know, so it's, it's kind of very unique to have all these C suite people and all these different people mixing all together because they all just want to learn more and understand what the state of the state is and in that technology all the time, keep up with it, so it's an interesting conference.

Chris Do: If you're watching this episode, we'll include it in the show notes below. And if you're listening to it, be sure to check us out wherever you're listening to this podcast. We'll include that code and so that hopefully you can run into Ian and geek out over the future of augmented reality, virtual reality.

Chris Do: Ian Dawson, as we were heading to the future, we were first able to travel back to the past. And for allowing me a moment to kind of relive that time in place with you and with our audience. It's been real fun catching up with you.

Ian Dawson: You too, Chris. I really, really appreciate this. I wanted to do this for a while with you, so I'm glad we got to do it. I'm Ian Dawson, and you are listening to The Futur.

The Futur: Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week. The Futur Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple podcasts.

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