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Freddie Öst

If punk rock were a genre of design agency, then SNASK would be the Sex Pistols. As they state on their website, SNASK is a “creative agency of misfit geniuses conquering the world through fine lookin’ design and real emotions. To worry about what people think of us is a waste of time.”

Make enemies, gain friends
Make enemies, gain friends

Make enemies, gain friends

Ep
143
Jul
21
With
Freddie Öst
Or Listen On:

Make enemies, gain friends.

If punk rock were a genre of design agency, then SNASK would be the Sex Pistols. As they state on their website, SNASK is a “creative agency of misfit geniuses conquering the world through fine lookin’ design and real emotions. To worry about what people think of us is a waste of time.”

Freddie Öst is the founder of SNASK and we were fortunate enough to have him on the show and really get to know the person behind the eccentric agency.

In the spirit of his business, the conversation oscillates between emotional vulnerability and playfulness. So if all goes well, you will laugh, cry, and be inspired in no particular order.

Hosted By
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produced by
edited by
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Episode Transcript

Freddie:
We had imposter syndrome for at least five, six years, where in every meeting, we were like, "Oh my God. As soon as someone's going to call our bluff and realize that we're not sure about anything." But then after, also almost around five years, we realized that, "Wait a minute. There's almost no one, in any meeting, knowing anything, but there's a lot of people pretending that they know." And then we felt, Why do everyone keep acting like they know when they don't know?" People shouldn't have imposter syndrome, because it's just, everyone are humans.

Greg:
Welcome to The Future Podcast, the show that explores the interesting overlap between design, marketing and business, I'm Greg Gunn. If punk rock were a genre of design agency, than SNASK would definitely be the Sex Pistols. As they say on their website, "SNASK is a creative agency of misfit geniuses conquering the world through fine look and design, and real emotions. To worry about what people think of us is a waste of time." Well said SNASK. In today's episode, we are fortunate enough to be joined by the founder of SNASK, and really get to know him as a person. And in the spirit of his agency, the conversation oscillates between emotional vulnerability and genuine playfulness.
So if all goes well, you will laugh, cry and be inspired in no particular order. All right I'm not going to say much else, because I think you should just listen to it. Please enjoy our conversation with Freddie Ost.

Chris:
I'm really excited to talk to you, because I didn't know who you were until I saw you backstage at the design conference in Brisbane. And I knew that they had you up there for a reason because you guys are wild. And I remember you saying to me backstage, "Yeah, I usually bring a rock band." But you said it in such a deadpan manner, I wasn't sure if you were serious or you're pulling my leg. And it turned out you were serious, and you do such an unusual presentation. I was kind of on the edge of my seat thinking, "What is going on with these guys that come on." One person sits on a couch, and then you're doing your thing. And the thing is, you win everybody over the minute you start to show your work and you talk about it.
There's a humor, there's an intelligence to the work that you guys do, and a freshness to it that I think you just win people over that way. I mean, this is incredible, so I have so many questions to ask you. First of all, before I go any further, for people who don't know who you are, can you introduce yourself please?

Freddie:
Yes, of course. And I mean, thank you for those kind words, Chris. I think compared to your talk, ours is more fun and entertaining, whilst your talk is super useful. You learn things actually, which I think is, maybe that's why people go to those conferences, not just to have fun. But yeah, I mean, very nice words from you. Yeah, my name is Freddie, and I'm the founder of SNASK, and we've been around for 14 years, and I live in Sweden, and that's where our agency is based, as well. We're fairly small, so we only have six people employed on our team, but we have a lot of a big freelance network that we use around us. So yeah, it depends on how you count.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). How do you describe SNASK to people?

Freddie:
I Describe us as bold, in the sense that we kind of want to challenge and question our audience as well as our clients, and everyone we have a dealing with. But not just to provoke, because sometimes people can think that SNASK only wants to provoke, but that's not the case. And not at all, when it comes to work, branding or concept wise, we really just want to push it so that it's genuine and that it's good, and that the people who will see it, actually will care about the company or not, yeah. So I think in that case, that's a good way to describe us.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
I'm not sure how SNASK sounds in English, how does it sound to you, Chris?

Chris:
It sounds like a nasty word for some reason.

Freddie:
It is. And that's yeah...

Chris:
Yeah. I like it-

Freddie:
That's funny.

Chris:
It is. And then I looked it up and it says, it means three different things in Swedish, it means sweet, filthy and gossip, or something like that?

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah. So it's incredible that one word can mean so many different things. And I think it perfectly captures the essence of who you guys are. I want to spend quite some time talking to you about the agency, the work, because it's so inspired and how you guys do what you do. But I want to talk to Freddy, first as a person and what it was for you. You look Asian to me, but you're Swedish, so naturally I have to ask, what is going on there?

Freddie:
I was adopted when I was two years old, from South Korea. So I was told that I was left outside the police station and then brought to an orphanage and stuff like that. But as I then researched my adoption, many, many years later, I found out that there are four stories that goes around from everyone who's adopted, especially for South Korea, and mine is one of those four, so probably that didn't happen. I was also born with cleft palate, not sure what you call it in English. But sometimes, in adoption, the parents can't afford an operation, so they go to a hospital and then an adoption center will, basically, at that point at least, buy the child by buying the surgery that is needed, and the condition is that they we'll then replace the child somewhere else.
So, I mean, it's a lot of horrible stories like that, and maybe that's what happened to me. I don't know, but I know that that's what I was born with. And then I came to Sweden when I was two years old, where everyone are like super tall and blonde and all pants in XXXS might suit me. Because I went back to South Korea, and I realized that I'm a medium in pants there, as a man. But in Sweden, there's not even a size for me, so I always have to buy pants and then go to the tailor and make them shorter.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Okay. So you get adopted, and what is childhood like for you? I always wondered this, because I came to America as a refugee from Vietnam and I always felt out of place in Caucasian, white, European America. It's like, this is very different, and it wasn't the easiest experience growing up here. It's not as progressive and it still has some issues, but what's it like in Sweden, growing up as an Asian person, in terms of ethnicity?

Freddie:
I mean, it's strange for sure, but since I was adopted, it's a bit different. Because as an adoptive child, and so I realized after talking to a lot of adopted people, I thought that I was white. Of course, I knew I wasn't, but inside I felt like a pure, normal Swede like anyone else. And it was fine. And it was fine, I mean, there was some people who would tease you for things, because he didn't look like everyone else, but also I know that that goes for people who look different, no matter if it's a race or your body type, or whatever. But yeah, I remember having a little bit of that, but the big thing came, I think when you hit puberty, and then you realize that, "Huh, okay. I'm not choosable."
"I'm not one of those, that are choosable, to be a good match, be a partner or whatever?" Because all the stereotypes are built around white people, and all the movies that I ever watched, up until recent years, everyone was a white man or a white girl falling in love with another white person. And without knowing, that became the mindset of, "Oh, so that's how you should be, and I didn't look like that." And everyone who was Asian was just good at karate or, basically, being funny or joking. I didn't reflect upon that, until later, but I know for sure that I felt like, "Why am I not allowed to be on the same level as everyone else?" That was really strange to feel, because I always, as I said, felt like I was like else inside.
And then also, I remember, when I met other adoptive people, when I was younger, I would hate them. I've learned, of course, I wouldn't hate them, it's a strong word, but I couldn't stand watching them because it would remind me that I'm not part of the group entirely. And when you don't see yourself in the mirror, you just believe that, yeah, you look like everyone else, but yeah. That's a good question. I mean, later in the years, I think I read Bernie Brown's book, Courage to Be Vulnerable. And I had relationship issues with my girlfriend and she told me a lot about this as well and so I was like, "Okay, I need to dig into this." And before that I always said, "Well, my adoption is not a problem. My parents obviously didn't want me and I'm not going to go and look for them," and, "I'm fine as I am." Blah, blah, blah.
But then when I started to really dig into myself, I went to a personality development course, for one year, and then you dig into your past and your present, and your future. And of course that came up, and then I really got to deal with it in a very good way, I think, that I never thought about. Because two years old, when you're adopted, there's something called, theory of, what do you call? There're patterns that are made inside of you, when you're really, really young that can influence the rest of your life. So I think that, that got me really interested in that. And this might sound a bit hippieish, but I did a meditation with one of my therapist, where I got to go back in time to be the baby at the hospital.
And I could see my mom, in the meditation, of course, standing by the bed crying, but also being happy that I'm going to have a better life. And that made me cry in the meditation, and then all of a sudden I was like, "Huh, this is so different. This is healing in a way." Because the conscious mind understands it's a meditation, but the brain doesn't know. So the brain would then experience all sort of a healing process, I think, and that was like one way for me to process it. And then I did a DNA test and uploaded it to every DNA portal there is, still haven't got any matches, but now I'm like, "Okay, if anyone wants to find me, I'm here."

Chris:
Hmm. Wow, okay.

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
There's a couple of things there, I want to go back and revisit there.

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
It's like you have the narrative first, the narrative, and I can only imagine what it means to be an adopted person, right. Where you think, "My parents don't want me." And that's a harmful narrative to tell yourself, and we don't understand the circumstances outside of that. And through this therapy, that you were able to create a new narrative, which is it's a heartbreaking decision for any parent to give up their child, and that if they can't provide for you, then at least you have a better life. I mean, Steve jobs, probably one of the most famous adopted children, and he has a better life because of the parents who ultimately find him. And the way that I like to think of it is, you can't choose your family, you can choose your friends, but adopted parents are different, they actively chose you.
And that's like a really special bond. And it sounds like when, when you're telling that story, it's so healing, and I think it's going to touch a lot of people, who might be in a situation like this. I'm getting a little emotional here, just thinking about it. What year in your life is, I mean, how old are you when you're having this moment and this ability to revisit the past?

Freddie:
This is funny, because of obviously this was like last year actually.

Chris:
Oh my God.

Freddie:
Maybe it was last year or one and a half year ago. And it wasn't during Corona, so yeah, two years ago.

Chris:
Wow.

Freddie:
So up until then, I was more closed as a person, I think-

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
... and more like, didn't want to reflect too much about it, even though I told people that, "Yeah, I thought about it, and I could speak about it." But I think that everyone that has a wound inside, learns how to speak about their wound in public, to people like, "Yeah, I was adopted, and this is my story." But I learned that that's a defense mechanism, because you don't want to go into that subject, so you make up a narrative, you make people satisfied with hearing that, and then you don't have to talk about it anymore. And I realized that's what I've been doing for all these years.

Chris:
Yeah. Okay. Was there an event or anything that happened that caused you to think, "Maybe I want to visit this in a deeper way?"

Freddie:
Yeah. I mean, definitely. I mean, starting off with my ex-girlfriend, me and her were together for four years, that's where it kind of started. We had some fights, she got real upset with me and I thought after a while, "Either she's insane, or something's wrong with me." Because, I think, up until then I thought that, "I'm a really good boyfriend here." And then I realized, where I knew that, "No, she's not insane. So something is wrong with me." So I googled, "Why do people leave each other?" And then there was this couple therapist from the US, and he said, "Most women that leave their husbands, that I've had in therapy, they leave them because they don't feel loved. Not because they don't love their husband, is because they don't feel loved by the husband, by the man.  
And that struck something inside of me that I was, "Oh, okay, this is probably true, in this case." And I couldn't shy away from it, and in that point, it was already too late, we lost our love between each other, we became more friends and whatever. And so we ended that. And then my new girlfriend, and my present girlfriend, she was super, instantly, "You need to open the door to your emotional life. You need to start being in tune with your emotions, you need to learn how to identify your emotions." All of these things. And I think that the fights that we had were based around the wounds in our lives, both hers and mine. So we started instantly going in couple therapy, because we thought maybe that's wiser to do in the beginning, then in the end.
And then, I think after that, it just shot, became more and more. I started to realize more and more if I want to develop myself and try to be a better person and everything, I need to start doing something. And actually, after we met in Australia, that was the breaking point in our relationship, me and my girlfriend. And I felt like either we break up here, or we try again, but then I need help because I can't change the way I want just by myself. I mean, because you can think so much on your own, but then you need help. And I felt like I needed to do something, and that's when I went to this personal development course, and that was the best thing I ever done in my life, and that changed so much with me. And I'm not a different person, but I think I know myself better, and I know my ins and outs and yeah.

Chris:
Yeah. Wow. Thanks for sharing that with me.

Freddie:
Of course.

Chris:
I knew we were going to go into some deep place and here we are already. And I find it kind of interesting the juxtaposition between how you describe yourself, in your relationship with closing off the emotions. And as a man, I do that too, and I wasn't adopted, it was just I'm not ready to access that. And I think a lot of men build up a wall to their emotions, because there's this stereotypical image of what a man is supposed to be like tough, strong unemotional, logical, and so there's always that struggle to kind of tap into that. I find it interesting because the work that your agency produces is anything but reserved. I mean, you go against the norm and you kind of, like you said, it's not meant to be just deliberately provocative for the sake of being provocative.
But the work that you do, it makes people smile, it makes people laugh, and there's a lot of emotion and heart in the work. How does one separate those two things, or is the work the therapy for what's happening inside?

Freddie:
I mean, I think it's all a mix of what you just said, but I want to start pointing out that, I mean, all the work that we do is teamwork. So it's not the genius Freddie, because I'm not a genius, I'm just the person in the team, and we're a lot of people working on it, so I mean, it's always a mix of people thinking, coming up with things. But I actually don't think that because I mean, of course there's something from all of us in the work that we do, but I do think that it's easier to do that work than doing it with yourself, looking in a mirror, or with your partner. Because that's the most intimate relationship, that's the most private and beautiful, the most ugly thing that you have, and that person will see all of you.
And I think that's where it's so hard to show everything that is ugly or beautiful or whatever, thinking, work, it's easier. It's just like, "Huh, here it is, here's something nice, here's fun, it suits your brand, all of that." But if it comes to yourself, you need to go into your wounds, you need to take off your armor and yeah, there's only one way to do it.

Chris:
Yeah. Okay, so if we forward the timeline into the point in which you start to think about advertising and design, where are you in your life, how old are you, and when do you come to the realization, "This is a good field for me to get into"?

Freddie:
So I was studying Psychology and Media at the university, more because I was just, "Yeah, it's interesting subjects." but I never thought that I would be a psychiatrist or anything. But then I met my best friends there, at the university, and we started a club night, and so we had it every second Saturday. We would DJ and book bands, and I would be the one who knew Photoshop and Illustrator, from being younger, just from playing around with it. So I naturally did the identity, without knowing logotypes, super ugly identity, I did a website, super ugly, and someone even told me, a guy that was pretty good designer, he told me, "Try to be nice. And just so you know, there's things you could improve." And I said, "No, he doesn't know." And now, of course, I understand that, he was right.
But that got me into that. And then I started studying graphic design, kept doing flyers and posters for the club nights, and then I moved to England and studied three years in England, Graphic Design, and that's basically what got me into it. And then when we graduated, we started up SNASK instantly, without experience from the industry, which was a challenge. But everyone told us, "You need 10 years of experience to start up your own agency." But then we felt like we will get someone else's experience, and we will get probably a old, white man's experience, because that's how most theories and methods have been made before. So we felt like, "Let's just do the mistakes ourselves from here on and see if we can find our own solutions."
And, of course, we borrow lots of solutions, it's already there, but we want to at least see that, "Okay, this is something we think is fine."

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Just before I get to the next question, I wanted to ask you about, did you finish your studies in psychology and media, before going to the UK?

Freddie:
No. I was just studying, what do you say? I started a program called Behavioral Science Program, which was three years, and in that you could choose different courses. So I basically just read one course of Psychology, one course of Media Communication, one course of Rhetorics, the art of convincing people or speak in public.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
... and yeah, so that was basically the courses. So I finished them, but they were only courses, not a bachelor.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You go to the UK and you study graphic design-

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
... for like three years, did you say?

Freddie:
Yeah. Exactly.

Chris:
Okay. And then you start the agency, is this with [Magnus 00:21:13], is this?

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah? Okay. And so, did he follow you to the UK and you guys both studied Graphic Design, or did you do something different in those three years?

Freddie:
No. We met on the bus from Manchester to Carlisle, and Carlisle was the place where we studied.

Chris:
I see.

Freddie:
That's where we met, and then basically, that's how we got to know each other. And then we started SNASK an idea and a brand, and everything in the second year of university.

Chris:
I see.

Freddie:
And then we kept building on it the third year, and then when we graduated, we started it up. Magnus took a job on the side for a while, because he felt it was a bit scary to start instantly, so I started it myself first and then [Pektor 00:21:56], our third guy that was also in England, also jumped on. So him and me and then took it further, than Magnus joined after a year, and then Eric, which is my partner today, two years later.

Chris:
I see. Okay. Couple of quick questions, just to tie it back to your parents, do you parents have an opinion about you going to the UK and studying graphic design? I don't know how it is like in Sweden, do parents just let everybody do whatever they want, do they support you financially, are you on your own? How does this work?

Freddie:
I mean, when it just comes to letting your kids do whatever they want, I think, that's, yeah, that's probably were Swedish, that you kind of let your kid do whatever they feel like they want to do, or pursue. Of course, if it has to do with studying, they will promote it for you, but when it comes to financial, we have a grants and loans, so everyone, no matter background or who you are, where you're from in Sweden, you can study. You can study there for at least six years, and the government will give you some of it as a grant, and some of it as a very beneficial loan. So I still pay my loan after 14 years, but it's totally fine. And it has to do with your income and everything. So yeah, that's how...

Chris:
That's wonderful. Okay. Year one of the business is always the most telling. I'm a big comic book fan, and so when the legend has been established, they go back and they tell a year one story, where Batman is a little clumsy, he doesn't know what he's doing. So I'd love to spend a little bit in year one, because I think it's so revealing because most companies don't get out of year one, they usually go broke. And so I imagine you graduating school, probably no money to your name and no clients, so how do you start a business without that?

Freddie:
Yeah. I mean, that's super hard. When it comes to the money bit, what we wanted to, we also read that one in 10 companies have survived one year.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
So we were like, "Okay, we need to make sure we don't empty the company on cash, just because." So we decided to give the company a good chance to survive, so we said that let's take a loan, or make sure that we can work for 10 months in the company without taking on a wage. And if you want to borrow money from a bank or from your parents, or if you want to work extra on weekends, that's fine, but that was basically the idea from the start. So me and Pektor started out, and we took loans, both of us, and we didn't take out any wage for 10 months. Then when Magnus joined, agreed, he did the same thing, and in that sense financially, that was kind of good because we could bank her up some money in the company account.
But when it comes to work, that's all for us, it all had to do with contacts and friends. Some people think that it's ugly to ask friends or talk about business with friends, but I think that that's what friends should be for, they should help you and not be the opposite. And I think that, I mean, five years in the business, we looked back and almost every client that we had came from a friend somehow, from the beginning. But after five years, it started rolling without being connected to our friends, somehow from the beginning, early, early. But, yeah. So for us friends were super important, speaking to friends about it and yeah.

Chris:
So you use the friends and family network, you reached out to those people and you just are like, "Does anybody have anything we could do?" Is that how it goes?

Freddie:
They, I mean, almost. I mean, it's done... Of course, there was, I remember that I sat at this coworking space, in the beginning, and then got to know a woman there who was an actress, freelancing in coaching, I think. And she knew someone who worked at the school of dramatic theater, and they and then know that we then got a project from them. And that was through the coworking space, but most others was through friends who started working somewhere and they needed an agency, and yeah.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
So it was a lot of them. And I remembered in the city of Malmo, that was like a work that we got even before we started the company, we were there and we did this rolling gallery of graphic design, called The Caravan Project, so we rebuilt a caravan into a gallery. And then that year we met the festival general at this Sydney Festival, and she really liked us, and that, she said, "Let me know when you start an agency." Because we told her we would. And then we did, and we got to pitch, then we won that. But it wasn't really hard selling, like what is it called? The business selling, it was more building relationship. And yeah, that way getting a job.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Just, I'm trying to relate this back to my own experience, when I started my own agency, very similar story to you. Just, I get out of school, I freelance for a little bit, I don't want to do this, I just want to work for myself. That first year was tough, doing projects for weeks long, for 500 bucks and sleeping on the floor. And then you keep doing this and you have a lot of self doubt, "Is this the right decision, shouldn't I go work for someone, get real experience?" But then eventually you have a breakthrough moment. So what was your breakthrough moments, where you knew, "Yeah, we can do this. We're legitimate."

Freddie:
Actually. It was this Malmo festival, we became their agency of that whole year and they gave us the whole budget to produce everything. And, of course, today that budget is super small, but back then it was huge for us, we were like, "Wow, that's so big." That felt really like, "Okay." And when we managed to do that and deliver on that, we felt like, "Oh, felt so nice. And we felt so big, and like, "Okay, we can do this." But I mean, we had imposter syndrome for at least five, six years, at least, where we were in every meeting, we were like, "Oh my God. Soon someone's going to call our bluff and realize that we're not sure about anything." But then after also almost around five years, we realized that, "Wait a minute, there's almost no one in any meaning knowing anything."
But there's a lot of people pretending that they know and acting grownups. And then we felt like, "Why do everyone keep acting like they know, when they don't know?" It's like, "Yeah. I asked my wife or husband yesterday, and he thought that this logotype looked like an elephant." It's like, "Okay, but maybe we should bring your husband or wife in instead because he or she is a brand expert?" "Uh-uh (negative). No, no, no, he or she isn't." "So how is this relevant, and no, it doesn't look like an elephant." But, I mean, and that's so interesting, people just say stuff, throw things out, which is fine-

Chris:
Right.

Freddie:
... then people shouldn't have imposter syndrome because it's just like everyone or humans, everyone, or else. Yeah.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
Whoever, and you can be a hundred years old and be 20 years old, because this shit happened to you, or you can be 15 year old and be an eight year old. So I think that's-

Chris:
Right.

Freddie:
... yeah.

Chris:
You're saying that chronological age is not necessarily, your actual maturity age, right? Because-

Freddie:
No.

Chris:
... you can get stuck?

Freddie:
Not at all.

Chris:
Right. Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back with more from Freddy. Thank you to BetterHelp, for sponsoring this episode. So it's 2021 and mental health is finally a thing, so many people are struggling right now and they aren't feeling like their normal selves, therapy helps, and it doesn't have to be sitting around just talking about your feelings. So what is therapy exactly? Well, it's whatever you want it to be. You can privately talk to someone, if you feel like you're not dealing well with stress or you're having relationship issues, it's really whatever you need. Don't be ashamed of normal human struggles, and start feeling better because you deserve to be happy. And now you don't have to worry about finding an in-person therapist near you, who can help.
BetterHelp is customized online therapy, that offers video phone, and even live chat sessions with your therapist. So you don't have to see anyone on camera, if you don't want to. it's much more affordable than in-person therapy, and you can start communicating with your therapist in under 48 hours. So join the millions of people who are seeing what therapy is really about and see if it's for you, because you are your greatest asset. Now, this podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp, and the future listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/future. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com/future.
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And if you are looking for a job and tired of creating resumes no one reads, just download the app and create your free profile. Start looking for jobs and connect with those employers immediately, to schedule your interview. Download the LookJobs app today and start looking. welcome back to our conversation with Freddy Ost.  Okay. So you said it took about five years to shake off this whole idea that maybe we don't know what we're doing, because maybe nobody knows what were doing or anybody, and we're okay with that. And then, is that when you start to come into your own, and you feel like, "Yes, we got this and we have a very unique way of looking at the world?

Freddie:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, we always had the unique way of looking at the world, but before we didn't. Unless you say knew if it worked, or if anyone would buy into it, or I mean, if we would forever have a low salary and be like, "Yeah, but we have freedom." But then secretly like curse, when you went to bed because you wants financial stability, and you want to be able to buy a house or whatever in the future. But yeah, somewhere around then, we started to... but we had a external CEO for awhile, and we were talking to him about things and we told him, "Yeah, we think this project is boring, so we're thinking about not, not doing that, quitting that contract."
And then he started, "Guys. I mean, I work at a bank, 99% of my work is really boring, 1% is fun. You guys complain over that one project is not that fun?" And then he started, "Do you ever want to be able to buy your own apartments?" And we're like, "Yeah." "Yeah. But then you can't quit a contract guys, that's so stupid." And he's like, "Don't do that. Just dig in, I mean, this is what normal people do. Work is not fun, so you guys are just spoiled." And then we realized that's actually true. We can't just do the work that we think is fun and then quit everything that we think is probably boring and Yeah. But, yeah.

Chris:
So wait, I just want to be clear here. So do you do take on some work to make money, or you're like, "No, we only want to do work that's fun."

Freddie:
No. I mean, of course We do work that is boring as well, but I think normally, when we get our request, we look at the client and the ambition and then we see like, "Okay, is it budget, an ambition, and this expectations accordingly? Perfect, that's like a great project." And last years we got more and more of those, which is perfect. But every now and then you get a project where the budget is zero, but the ambition is super high. Like maybe a charity project or something, and then you can be like, "You know what, we can do this and we won't get paid for the time, but we will get something else in return." Or we can get the opposite, where it's like, "You know what, this might not be the funniest project, we might not be able to do something that we will want to put in the portfolio, but it would give us money.
And we've been low in the last two months on some projects, so we should just do this and yeah, no let the money." sometimes we said, "We can do this and out of this budget, we will use a 10th of it to have fun with it, just to, yeah.

Chris:
Yeah. We refers to it here as, we steal from Peter to pay Paul, because the big corporations will give you the budgets and you're like, "Great. You guys can afford it." And there's a tiny client that you feel connected with, and normally you should not take on a project like that, but you're. "Okay. We made money over here, we'll just use it for this and we'll call this PR," right?

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
So you may [crosstalk 00:36:56], okay.

Freddie:
Exactly. Yeah.

Chris:
Now, I think you said you're seven, is it seven people or six people?

Freddie:
Six people.

Chris:
Okay. Is one of those people, a business person?

Freddie:
No. We don't have a business person.

Chris:
So who's minding the shop, who's like, "Here's the profit and loss statement Freddie?"

Freddie:
It's basically me and Erik-

Chris:
Okay.

Freddie:
... kind of dividing that responsibility, but none of us was a business person from the beginning. But you have to learn, I mean, 14 years of having your own studio, you kind of have to learn how to up your price, learn how to value yourself. We learned the hard way, as I said before, we probably could have just took an employment to learned it, but we decided to go our own way, and then we learned that, to have a low hourly rate and many hours, is not very fun when you get to do a bigger project than you did before. Because you have to work for three years on a project. And so, it's way better to have very high, hourly rate, but very few hours in the beginning, and then you can lie the other way instead.
"No, but this will only take three hours or whatever,  [inaudible 00:38:05]." And then the next time you get a job, you can say, "Yeah, but this will take longer time." And clients understand that, but clients don't understand something will be more expensive per hour. So you can always up your hours, but you can never up your price.

Chris:
Right.

Freddie:
That was learned the hard way.

Chris:
Okay. I want to get into some of the philosophy here, and I just find the writing that you guys put out there so sharp, and so funny. I shared your profile bio on Clubhouse with people in my community, I'm like, "This is how you write a bio guys. Look at this, I don't have those kinds of writing skills, but this is the gold standard." I'm on your site and you talk this manifesto. I'm not going to read all of them but-

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
... I'd like to read a couple, and then get you to talk about it. Okay?

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
The first thing that I noticed from, even your presentation in Brisbane was this idea that you want to make enemies and gain fans, right?

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
So somewhere in here, number 10 in this SNASK's manifesto says, "Having enemies is a good thing, it proves that you stood up or something sometime in your life." So can you expand on what that means?

Freddie:
Yeah. So what we mean, when we make enemies and getting fans is that, as a brand or a person, you should stand up for your own opinions and beliefs. And if you do that, if you truly genuinely do that and being that brave, you will get enemies. Because everyone can think alike and that's fine, but you will also get the right kind of fans, fans that don't just scroll by your posts, but fans that will actually stop, like, comment, tag their friends and even share your posts. And that's basically called engagement, and whether you're a business or a private person, it is valuable to you as a person or to you as a brand or a company.
So daring to have enemies is a good thing, and I think that a lot of companies are very afraid of making enemies, yet no company in the whole world could have the entire world as us market it's impossible. So, I mean, that's basically what we mean with it, and we think that brands should stand up for things that is more than just their product values or service value.

Chris:
Okay. So I totally get that. And it seems very intuitive. You gotta stand for something, and that means you're going to stand against something. But we find that so many people and brands as a kind of reflection of the people, are really scared. They want to be, "Oh, I just want to be for everyone, can we just get all along?" And when you hear something like that, how do you respond to, how can you help someone to have the courage to stand for something, and why is that a benefit?

Freddie:
I think that we normally take metaphor over the personality of a human being, a lot of people are doing that because it's easy to understand, but talking to a person for more than five minutes and that person doesn't tell you anything or what he or she actually thinks about things, everything, you were speaking to a diplomat, you're speaking to a politician, then you're not speaking to a real private person. And I think it becomes boring and it becomes, after a while, many brands that are doing the same, it becomes very generic. And after awhile, almost every brand in the same industry have the same tone of voice, they're saying the same things, no one wants to put up a black square on Instagram, Black Lives Matters, is because that's too much. We don't really care about politics, even though it's not politics, it's just human rights.
But I think that we want to push our clients to really stand for what they believe in, by doing this. For example, the Simon Sinek Circles, they have to come up with a why that is not money, because everyone had money somewhere, if you were a business. Or we push them and say that when they land in, "Okay, we want to be this amount of brave, this amount of provocative, this amount of in innovative." Blah, blah, blah, and then we normally say that, "Okay, let's say that a competitor to you, they buy up a small company and they create a brand that is more bold, more provocative, more innovative. Would you still want this position?" And then almost everyone was like, "No, we want to be that." "So why didn't you pick that?" "Because we were risk minimizing."
"Uh-huh (affirmative). So if you just redraw this? This is finally you now." And they're like, "Yeah, that's where we should be." And that's a common thing, I think everyone does that, especially if you do it in a process, in a workshop, it takes some time. There's always a risk minimizer in the group, which is fine. But when it comes to putting your brand values, and your brand, shouldn't hold back too much, I think.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay, that's beautiful. I love that. I want to read one more here, so from this SNASK manifesto, number five, is that bureaucracy is spelled bureaucrazy. Tell me about that, that's hilarious by the way? That should be on a t-shirt.

Freddie:
Yeah, I think it's because we also misspelled bureaucracy so many times when we lived in the UK, because we were like, "This is a hard word to spell." And it's very ironic because what it means is exactly the same thing. When you can't spell bureaucracy, it's bureaucrazy almost. It's like can't it be easier, why are they doing it this way, why do you have to apply 15 times, I mean? So we just couldn't stand bureaucracy, and that's why we felt like  bureaucracy is bureaucrazy.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
And yeah. We firmly believe that.

Chris:
And, and do you run your studio like that, where you want to get rid of the red tape, there's no hierarchy or there's there's not a lot of middle management?

Freddie:
Yeah. We have very little management. But it's easy for us to say, I mean, we're only six people, so of course, if you're 40 the people, you probably need middle management at some point.

Chris:
Right.

Freddie:
But, well, I think so, at least some, but I do think that our industry have way too many titles but I do think that there have to be someone who has more, or someone who has less responsibility within different fields. But yeah, but other than that, we don't have a lot of bureaucracy, in SNASK actually,

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Number three, "Generosity always pays itself back." How does that manifest itself in the things that you do?

Freddie:
I mean, it can be like sharing ideas with someone who asks you, sharing work, I mean, you are the best person to know with this, sharing your insights and knowledge, everything. I think that they started a university when were like, "Oh, what's your idea for this brief that we got?" And they wouldn't want to tell someone, because they thought, "Someone might steal this or someone... " Blah, blah, blah. And then we learned that, "No, no. It's way better to just share and trust people. And you will be way better, much more beautiful world." If people think like that, and then we just thought. So, I mean, trying to do that, it's basically paying it forward by being [inaudible 00:45:15].
Also, it's like buying your friend beer without keeping count of how many did you buy? How many did your friend buy, or drink or whatever. Because I think that at the end of the year, it will probably be around fairly equal anyway, and it doesn't matter. And I think that, yeah, if you're generous, not only with money, and as person as well, it will pay itself back automatically.

Chris:
Okay. Talking about generosity, you go on tour, it's you and it's Eric, I think. And when you guys go do your talk, you're out of the office for days, because you've got to travel to a place, you've got to get set up and then this will travel back, and then jet lag. So how does the studio or agency function when you're out on the road doing your thing?

Freddie:
It works, it works really well. I mean, of course, also we need to plan, if we're going to the states or to Australia or places far a way, where we want to stay at least for four or five days, at least, then it's a bit more planning, and we need to know in advance and we will plan the meetings around it. And some meetings you can have, and you can of course email. So it's a lot of emailing at conferences in the mornings, I know, that you wake up and you have 50 emails in like, "Oh my God, okay. I'm going to get through this before I go to lunch or whatever." So that's kind of normal. But I mean, I think it works fine and this year with Corona, has taught us that working from a distance does not mean that you count work together.
And even though that it's nice to meet every now and then, but I think that's, yeah, very evident that it does work. But I mean, when we're away, it's not like we just let everything go and leave them to fix everything, but we plan on everything, into the little smallest details, so that it's not strange or it doesn't work. It's like, yeah.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So it sounds like there's a lot of planning and then there's still a little bit of work you have to do when you're on the road, just to make sure everything's moving along?

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Another question I have for you is, as a public speaker, and it's interesting that you mentioned your behavioral science courses and rhetoric.  I was like, "Oh, that's really interesting." So when you're on stage, what is going on in your mind, how do you feel? Are you, are you excited, are you nervous, what's the emotion that's going on with you, as you're about to come up on stage?

Freddie:
As I'm about to go up on stage, I can sometimes be incredibly liberally nervous, but not in the same way that I was the... I mean, the first time we had a lecture, it was some creative mornings in Stockholm, it was like 25 people in the audience and I thought I would die. I was so nervous, so it was super nervous at that point. And then I remember we, some years later, stood of Barcelona in front of 500 people, and I remember being very nervous then as well, but not as nervous. And then nowadays I get a bit nervous, I can feel it in my stomach, but not like my heart is going to explode, because that's how it was before. Now. It's just, I can feel my body telling me, "You're nervous" But my hand is more calm, and my heart is more calm and it's more like, "Okay, it's fine."
And then when I get out there, I normally go in to character, I think, and I'm in it. But I mean, also I tend to think that the more people in the audience, the less nervous I get, when in the show. I mean, it's like, it's so many people, so you just can't focus on seeing people you can't see, but if you're in a lit room with 20 people, it's still a bit more scary because you see if someone looks tired, or looks away, or it looks on their phone-

Chris:
I see.

Freddie:
... or whatever. Yeah.

Chris:
Okay, you say you go into character, and you are a character on stage, so what character, how do you describe that character?

Freddie:
Very energetic, maybe a bit too provocative, but I think I want to be provocative on stage.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
Also, trying to be inspiring while telling stories that are kind of fun and stupid, like telling people that, "If we tell people that we fucked up a project or something, I think that's inspiring for anyone to hear that, "Oh, this is like anyone makes mistakes, and it's natural, and it's just how it goes." And I think that's part of my character. Remember in Barcelona, in front of 500 people, I asked if, "Oh, how many are feminists?" And then just a few people raised their hands. And then I screamed, "Then you should probably read more." I didn't think more about it.

Chris:
Right.

Freddie:
Also because we're from Sweden, Sweden is very feministic, I'm a feminist, and most people I know are. And it's about equality between genders, and also equality between race and ethnicity, and sexuality, and everything. But, yeah. Then we noticed afterwards, that it came up, a lot of people, "Oh, that was brilliant. If you said that, no one has ever said anything like that here." Or in Russia, we were lecturing in Moscow, we're like, "Should we show these feministic campaign, or should we say these things?" And then we're like, "Well, they booked us, so let's do it."

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
And then afterwards, was a long line of guys and girls who wanted autographs. Well, I don't know what they want our autographs for, but they were all so thankful, they were also like, "No one has ever came to Russia, or where we heard and said these things to us." And I think that's worth so much.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
It's like, yeah.

Chris:
It must be shocking for certain cultures who don't think like that, and for you to be on the other end, very far leaning left, and then whoa, it's like cold water in everybody's face, and they appreciate that. But then you wonder, are we going to be followed by the KGB afterwards, what's going to happen?

Freddie:
Maybe.

Chris:
But you got back, the story has a happy ending.

Freddie:
Exactly.

Chris:
But I see you as this onstage. I see you as... okay. Maybe this isn't fair, but let me just put this out there.

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
I see you as warm, but a little off. You're a little bit of an outlaw, a jester and a magician all put together. I mean, is that fair? Because sometimes I feel like you're walking around talking about things and being who you are, is a big middle finger to the anti you. You're making enemies for sure, do you see yourself as that?

Freddie:
Yeah. Yeah. When you said it, it yeah. It's like that.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
Definitely.

Chris:
Because I felt that, I'm like, "Oh my God." It's like, if I worked at a corporate agency, I'm like, "I think he's attacking us right now. He's saying we're-

Freddie:
[crosstalk 00:52:10]-

Chris:
... sneaking and boring." Okay. Okay, so I'm just mindful of time here. It's just like, we have a few minutes left, but I wanted to get-

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
... into what I think is this, thematic thing that is tying the work together. I get the sense that maybe down and deep inside, or maybe it's not that deep inside, but you're a little bit of a practical joker. Like you're trying to pull pranks on everybody all the time, it feels like that, is it?

Freddie:
What do you mean, with our work or with the [inaudible 00:52:39]?

Chris:
Well with the work. Like, for example, there's two things that come to mind. I think there was an art director where you were like, "Let's just curse a bunch of nurses, and then just switch out his photo."

Freddie:
Oh, yeah.

Chris:
And it's like, that's kind of cruel. This is there's one moment for this guy to shine and you are, "No, let's screw him over. Let's just do that." Another one is the window, where I think you switched out some of the tile outside your office window, and people will look down and look at it and not realizing the mirror was a-

Freddie:
Oh, yeah.

Chris:
two way mirror. It's like, who thinks like that? As an Asian, I try to just be, "No, I don't want to make anyone upset." But you, you're like, "Let me just mess around with people, let's just poke the bear." It's innocent, it's fun-

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
... but there's that practical joker in you.

Freddie:
It is, for sure. I mean, if you would see our office now, you would even... I mean, we have a Will Ferrell, and you see him in our toilet, where probably he will come miss it because he knows about it already, because his wife is Swedish, for example. We have that window, like you said, the mirror that speaks to people, but it gives people compliments. So it says, "Don't worry, you look amazing." And a lot of people looking into that window, actually looks worried when they walk past, they have this. When you only see yourself.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
You are more critical. And it's like, "Do I look all right?" It's always this critical look in the eyes. So there, we just wanted to give them a compliment, to be like, "Don't worry. You look amazing." So, I mean, I think we like practical jokes. Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
We fooled our intern to Costa Rica. He thought we were going to the country house and then we took him to Costa Rica for a week. And that was really fun as well.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
Oh, yeah.

Chris:
In the talk you show, I assume it's real, but I don't know. You never know with advertising, if it's real or not. That you steal some tools from the person who's doing the tile on the street, and then you carve it out, you switch. Is that an act of vandalism, or did you have permission to do that?

Freddie:
No, it's an act of vandalism. But we didn't steal the tools, we bought the tools, but we looked at what tools they had to [crosstalk 00:54:47]-

Chris:
I see.

Freddie:
... them, and we're like, "Okay, this must be available online." And they were really cheap. And then we basically just went out when they want a coffee break, and stole one on these tiles, one thing again, and then we sent that off and got our topography into it. And then when they were done, Isabelle went out carry it, and place [inaudible 00:55:06] there.

Chris:
Right.

Freddie:
And no one said anything. It's just people, photographing our quote, "If you love someone, let it show." Is the quote.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
And I think that, yeah, it can be vandalism and if they want to remove it, it's fine by us. But yeah.

Chris:
Yeah. But it's in good fun. Just like your shower beer. It's like, okay. Are people really drinking beer in the shower, and it's safe? I mean, I don't like glass in my... there's always that element of just mischievous, borderline, somebody could get hurt, but nobody gets hurt kind of thing.

Freddie:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris:
And is that something that is naturally comes from you, or do you work at, did you pull pranks on kids when you were younger, or is this just like a professional pursuit?

Freddie:
No, there's more professional thing.

Chris:
Okay, yeah.

Freddie:
But I mean, of course, in our friendship, we have pranks but not like... no, we're not the prankcy gang of people, but it's more like in work, we think that it's fun. And we like to be on the edge, with both client work, but also with our own thing. But as you can see with our own things, we don't have a client. We don't have a client or a risk minimizer so it's just people like, "Should we really do this?" "Yeah." "Okay." And then [inaudible 00:56:19] says, "No." It's like you you move from home and you have as much butter on your sandwich as you want, because mom or dad can tell you off or whatever. It's just like our own projects tend to go out of hand, but it's also fun, and It gives us energy.
We did a badminton film, I'm not sure if you've seen it? It's on our website, but it's like us playing badminton, and the reason we did that was because the first ever wifi password we have was badminton. No one knew why, someone just chose it and it sticks around forever. And we were like, "Let's do a movie about ourselves, what should it be about?" And then someone says "Our wifi password, let's do a badminton film. And then we did, and it became super big in a fun way, the World Federation of Badminton shared it, and then a lot of badminton people were upset, because they were like, "This is not serious. Our sport is a serious sport. They're making fun of us." And then other people were like, "Well, if we are so offended by this, maybe we should just take this as a good fun thing."
So it was like very mixed. But the Swedish head coach of badminton contacted us, was super happy, the precedent of the Swedish National Badminton Federation contacted us, was super happy. So a lot of people were super happy, as well, but it was also on the edge. Some people really-

Chris:
Yes.

Freddie:
... hated us in that world, and some people were super happy so.

Chris:
Well, it's very in keeping with the SNASK philosophy which is, "Make enemies and gain fans." And I think because you're brave enough to be on that edge, where it's kind of like politely offensive or some somewhere in there, it's innocently offensive or possibly, where you actually get a lot of people to pay attention. And in this world of boring MeToo advertising, marketing and design, we just need a break from all that sameness. And I think that's where you guys always cut through. And I want to tie it back to something we said at the very beginning here, which is, when you came on stage and you tell these stories, and you're making people laugh, and you guys are just outrageous what you do.
But what I saw in there was genius storytelling, in that there is an idea and here's some work that explains the idea. And then there's a little, self-referential meta commentary, because you're like, "Okay, here's the logo quilt, everybody here needs one, so you can download ours and just use it. We don't even have these clients anymore, anyways, so who cares?" And so there's that kind of just whatever, we're just the punk rock, bad boys of advertising and design. And I think it's wonderful, so I think you are a very effective teacher. So it wasn't just fun and games, although it was very funny and I had a really good time, It was a very memorable presentation. So are you doing virtual talks, now that you can't travel?

Freddie:
Yeah. So we've done one in Vancouver, I mean, it's fun. And to save Vancouver now, because it's not in Vancouver. I did it from here but, yeah, I did one-

Chris:
[crosstalk 00:59:23] -

Freddie:
... in Vancouver, yeah. So we've done a few all over the place.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
But from the same room, so yeah.

Chris:
And how do you feel about that, doing virtual versus live, because so much of what you do is live, I think?

Freddie:
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's just, it's horrible. Because you can also only hear yourself, because if it's on Zoom, everyone wants a muted, so it's like, no one is laughing.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
So it's like, you're telling jokes and no one is laughing, or you're saying something you think is at least a little bit profound and you don't even get a humming or anything, it's just like dead silent, so you don't know. One time I dropped out, my sound stopped work and I didn't notice for like two minutes, until I got a text message from the guy who organized, "Hey, something went wrong with your sound, you need to... [inaudible 01:00:15] so sad.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
I was like, "I was speaking to myself-

Chris:
Yeah, right.

Freddie:
... [crosstalk 01:00:21] like two minutes." Yeah.

Chris:
The Sad part is, there's no difference. It's like, you're speaking to yourself or you're speaking to the audience, there's no feedback. And it's really dis regulating.

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
So how do you find the energy to do that, when you normally get a laugh or a, "Ooh." Whatever it is that you do, how do you find the energy to keep going?

Freddie:
I think I just pretend that people are laughing.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
I mean, I've been at worst. I actually been at events where no one has been laughing and just watching, no one has been, well say, we were at a Swedish event in Colombia, and they had booked us, but no one who was there was a designed fan, or a advertising fan. They were just people, council, like diplomats.

Chris:
Oh, wow.

Freddie:
So they didn't want to listen to us, which I understand.

Chris:
Right.

Freddie:
So the whole talk, people were standing talking to each other and drinking some bubbly wine, or whatever. And that was probably the hardest thing to do, because yeah, I can blatantly see, no one is caring, and here I am doing my one hour thing. But so I mean, I think, I just pretend that people are laughing or whatever, and then I just keep going, what are you, because you must do the same. Right?

Chris:
Yeah. It is tough. So that's interesting, I didn't think of it like that. I'm just trying to teach again, so I'm not really thinking about, "Does everybody need to be rolling on the floor, laughing and just like hitting their knees, salping themselves." It's kind of funny, just thinking about that. But I'm, actually, very used to being on the camera and teaching this way without an audience, and so we're trying to design experiences where I can actually hear and see people. Awhile ago, Tony Robbins spent, I think, $9 million creating this sphere of screens so that he could actually see the audience and they can see him.

Freddie:
Oh, wow.

Chris:
Yeah, and then he has people coming in and with lights and jumping up and down, and it's a party. So imagine a guy like him who needs to feed off the energy of people, he would be dead energy level without seeing people. And so we create the poor man's version of that, with a bunch of screens, and we're like, "Oh, that's kind..." So we're working on that, but I'm used to just speaking to no one and then reading the comments two days later to see if it worked. So there's just-

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
... a delay, So it's not real time feedback.

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
And sometimes you miss the mark, and like, "Oh man. All right, I'll work on that again for next time."

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Yeah.

Freddie:
Yeah.

Chris:
Okay. Well, Freddie, it was really wonderful talking to you. I am an admirer of the work and I'm admire the way that you present, and I wish more people thought about not only the work that they do, but how they speak about it, so that on stage could be 10 different versions of SNASK. So it's like, "Oh wow, there's a different way." So I really, really enjoyed that. I wanted to ask you before we leave, is there something that's coming up for you, that you're really excited about, either on a personal or professional level?

Freddie:
There are things coming up in the fall that I can tell you-

Chris:
Okay.

Freddie:
... but one is a project, for a big brand, and one is a big happening in our organization, a big change within the organization.

Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Freddie:
So that's stupid of me to say, because I can tell you what it is. But yeah, I think that's the two secret things.

Chris:
Two secret things you can't say anything about?

Freddie:
Exactly. But then I'm really excited about, I mean, I'm glad it's just a Swedish summer coming up, I'm super happy for that. Because we've been in the dark for like so long now, so will I look forward to that.

Chris:
Okay. Well, very good. It was a delight to talk to you. I hope that when the world opens up, that I'll run into you backstage somewhere, and we can connect again in person.

Freddie:
Definitely. I would love to Chris, and thank you so much for this talk. It was super nice.

Chris:
Thank you. And if people want to find out more about you, where should they go?

Freddie:
Just go to snask.com, or our Instagram.

Chris:
Okay, beautiful. Thank you very much.

Freddie:
My name is Freddy Ost from SNASK, You were listening to The Future.

Greg:
Tanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app, and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Future Podcast is hosted by Chris Do, and produced by me. Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony [Barro 01:05:02] for editing and mixing this episode, and thank you to Adam Sanborne for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on Apple Podcasts, it'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me, head over to thefutur.com/heychris, and ask away. We read every submission, and we just might answer yours in a later episode.


If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefuture.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time.

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