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In this episode, we host investor and futurist Lisa Andrews. She's fascinated by this new technology and sees an opportunity in it to create a positive impact on humanity. As Lisa puts it, we are living in the phigital world. That is to say, a hybrid of the physical and digital world.
Just when you thought you had the internet figured out, new waves of technology approach. With them come a torrent of unfamiliar terms: non-fungible tokens, web3, DAOs, the Metaverse.
Are they real, hype, or are they keys to solving the world's biggest problems?
In this episode, we host investor and futurist Lisa Andrews. She's fascinated by this new technology and sees an opportunity in it to create a positive impact on humanity.
As Lisa puts it, we are living in the phigital world. That is to say, a hybrid of the physical and digital world. Think about the life you lead online and the one you lead offline. They're not the same but are closely related.
The Metaverse is where those two worlds start to converge. And therein lies a new opportunity for innovation, creativity, and of course, business.
If you think you've missed this new wave of technology, think again. There is plenty more to learn and discover.
I look at the physical world and the digital world. The combined word of the phygital world is the new term now and that's the combination of the physical and the digital and where they overlay.
And we're actually going to be living in this phygital world in the future where things like NFTs and the metaverse and having a metaverse strategy is going to be so important for every person and who wants to participate in that wave of technology, that could be the next biggest thing.
(Music) So Lisa, what I'm hoping for today's podcast is to pick up a conversation that you and I had I think in multiple points in our interaction in Cancun. The first time I saw you was, you were just kind of breezing through in a summer dress, sauntering off an airplane. I imagine in my mind, just straight into the, I guess the little kind of get together prior to the workshop.
And I was blown away that you just literally kind of got off an airplane and you're ready to socialize and network and do all the things that you do only to later realize and learn that you're an introvert, what? How's that possible? And then when you started talking about all the exciting crazy things that you're doing, my mind started to melt.
Now, I like to think I'm kind of up to speed with stuff, but I want to describe to our listeners that you're kind of from the future quite literally. I feel like you're a time traveler, maybe three to five years ahead of everyone else.
And today my intention is to just have a conversation with you to find out what's it like in the future? So I have so many questions for you. Now, before I go any further, for people who don't know who you are, can you introduce yourself please.
Absolutely. I love to introduce myself now as an energized introvert. And I think you've picked up on that when you first met me. And that I am so excited about the opportunity that we actually have being alive today. I think we've never lived in such an amazing time and such an abundant time with more access to food, water resources, to be able to do anything that we want.
And so I'm a little bit of iron man in training. Love superheroes and superpowers that it gives us. And I think my background being, I was actually, I don't usually lead with this, but chartered accountant by trade, who ended up specializing in tax law and then jumping ship over to work for an engineering firm and own an engineering firm that I grew over four years with a merger and four acquisitions and sold when I was 29.
So I actually went through this technical systems processes and large scale process control and automation business to then have a successful exit and have the space to think, what am I going to do next? Which is when I did do that research into the future and found out about all these emerging technologies that are going to change all of our lives in the next 10 years.
And so the CFO in me said, well, actually people would need to know about this stuff. And a good CFO would do an analysis of where are you now and where do you want to be? And the gap analysis is essentially the execution plan. And so in the last 10 years, I like to say I've been a lifelong learner of just learning about everything that's out there and wanting to share that with the world.
So I do have the license to Singularity University in Australia. I run the extreme tech challenge in Australia. We work with businesses and help them grow essentially, and work on the concept of community capital and how do we actually help old ships rise.
Wonderful. Okay. Before we get into what I really want to talk to you about today, how did you come into contact with Singularity University? What drew you there? What kept you there? Because I know it's part of your LinkedIn profile that you attended Singularity University. I even know that was a thing. So tell me more about that please.
Yeah. Great. It was actually when I sold the business. I love the concept of proximity and I know you talk about proximity a lot. And I've always had this concept of how do you actually be part of the top 1% of the global population. And it was actually originally the top 5% of the global conversation. And I come from a smallish city, we'll call it a big country town in Australia and there's 250,000 people.
And I went to a Tony Robbins event actually, and signed up for his platinum partnership. And he talks about proximity as well and your peer group. And I thought, okay, I've got this time and space in my life it's time to level up. And he'd send you four invites a year. And one of them was actually turn up at this airport in Silicon Valley in San Francisco on this day and we're going to take you on an adventure.
And the adventure actually was Singularity University. So it's very serendipitous sometimes how things are delivered into your life of what you need at the right time. And it was at the NASA campus in Mountain View when we go onto this campus and I walked into a classroom having no idea what I was getting myself into.
And there was a sign that said, how will you have a positive impact on a billion people in the next 10 years? And I had to take a breath and I took a step back and I thought, wow, I actually thought I was really smart, but that takes a whole nother mindset. And I haven't been thinking about that way. How could I possibly impact a billion people?
And I love Chris your mission around teaching a billion people to do what they love. And it's just a new mindset. And I think that experience for me, and then you go through a program there and they teach you about all these different technologies and how you can utilize technology to scale and actually work on really big problems, which was super inspiring. So I did from that get the license and become expert faculty to be able to share the message and the mission with everybody.
Wonderful. Okay. So the fact that you became a platinum member of Tony Robbins thing says a lot about you, that you have the time, the money, the resource, the mental space, and the curiosity to learn. Is this after you've exited your company that you're going to be part of this platinum. Okay. So just for my timeline, my mental timeline, is that when you were 29 or right after, or when did this happen?
Yes, I sold the business when I was 29. I joined the business when I was 25 and earning a modest chartered accountant salary. And I like to say I was a really good accountant that I did negotiate shares in that business, but then helping it grow and being able to successfully exit to think that was mindset.
And so I didn't come from a lot, I had to make my own way and started working actually at McDonald's when I was 15. So it was really that curiosity to learn and to be able to do more and help more people. I think that's probably the key thing. I've always thought, how do I help more people? Which is kind of led me down this path.
I love that. And I'm just curious how you, because as a person who grew up with not a lot myself as a first generation immigrant to the United States, I remember very clearly the time when there was not a lot. And so I'm always balanced between these two things.
Whereas my wife has grown up in an upper class family because her dad was a commercial pilot, she doesn't quite know what it's like to be poor and to be on the outside looking in. And so I'm just curious how you are able to manage the old money mindset versus where you are at now.
I think I have grown up privileged even though I didn't grow up with money in that I actually, my mom was a single mom and I have an old brother and a younger sister and we actually grew up very, very loving family.
And I think I didn't realize that we didn't have much until there was something in my mind I noticed that when I was about 12, that some of the kids in the neighborhood had tiles in their house instead of the carpet that we I had and some had nicer houses than us. And then I think I was about 13 or 14 and I realized that some of my friends had dads as well as moms.
And so I think I grew up in a little bit of a bubble in that my mom didn't work and a lot of the time she did actually work and we stayed with our grandparents a lot and was just very, very, very loved. But I think adding to that story, I actually had a kidney transplant when I was 17.
And it was a long story in the. I spent three years in hospital from a burst appendix at school camp and got ill and had a lot of love in my life. And I think I played this mental catch up game where I thought I'm behind. I was actually really smart in school.
I was the top of all of my classes and then spent three years where I wasn't able to get ahead. And so when I got out of that situation, I worked full time. I studied uni full time and was just trying to play this catch game. So I think that was the desire and the will to want more in my world.
Okay. So despite not having everything, even just being raised by a single mom in finer resources it was patted with lots of love and a support network that you never felt like there was a lack in your life, right?
Wow. Okay. So now that you introduced the Singularity University in this kind of question of, what are you going to do to impact the lives of a billion people, how did you process that? That was a big wake up call, maybe a big challenge for you. Take me through the steps a little bit between that moment and when you start to put that into action.
Wow. Okay. So the five days, I guess I learned about nanotechnology, bionics, robotics, AI, network sensors, AR VR, synthetic biology. And it's a lot to take in, in a week. And sort of thinking about exponential technologies and I've been on this journey since in following programs of actually looking 250,000 years into the past, as well as 250,000 years into the future.
And so when you say I'm a time traveler, I actually very much believe that. And the past, present and future, what do we have access to? Where are we at? What's the contrast? And so I actually spent a couple of months just learning and the next trip with Tony Robbins, actually I was in India and I was sitting in a hotel room with a lady from Canada who had a business who wasn't going so well.
The business wasn't going so well because she was traveling so much. And so I actually originally started the business and said, I'll just create you some dashboards and some KPIs and business intelligence, so that whilst you're traveling you know what's happening in your business and you know when you need to jump in and not jump in as opposed to having it on your mind all the time.
And so that's actually how the business was originally born. It's our 10 year anniversary this year in August. And so it just came from helping people. And so there was a business they needed help. I had the technical skills. So I was sitting in a hotel room in India and on my laptop creating some business intelligence dashboards and this was back in 2012.
And so you can imagine creating a business intelligent dashboard wasn't quite as easy as now, where you download a software and you pay a subscription of $50 a month and you can get information, it was quite early. And then I guess from that information, I'm a big fan of data. And so big data equals big insights and from big insights you need to take big action.
And so I look at business models now and having that lenses of seeing businesses just with how do you make money while you sleep? And I can model out a business and I can look from understanding a business from their pricing strategy and from what they're actually selling to be able to say, well, this is actually how big your business is going to be, or this is the kind of plan and the model and where you might get to you in your business.
I love Tony Robbins actually says that all businesses are limited by the psychology or the skill of the owner. And so it's great. You can meet someone, you can understand their psychology, but what's their skill and are they able to upskill? And I was thinking about the compound effective knowledge.
And so for example, the engineering firm I had was 84 staff. And so I was absolutely certain that the compound impact of that knowledge was I could start another business and be 84 staff. Whereas the first time it took me four years, it would probably only take me a year to create another business with 84 staff because I knew how to do that.
And so with all these different technologies and business models, you can almost see the road ahead and know the road ahead and advise people to be able to help them and guide them to be able to utilize technology.
Wow. Okay. Would it be safe to call you a futurist? Is that okay? Is that a term that-
Yes. I love it.
... I can use or? Yes. Okay. Because you're all about technology. And I read somewhere, I think on your LinkedIn page where you believe that we're in this space and time where every problem that exists can be solved with technology. And that's a very optimistic point of view of the future.
And I love that because where I'm standing in the visibility I have into the future, things look kind of bleak where there's a war going on in Ukraine and people are talking about this global warming problem that's going to affect coastlines and countries and areas that are at sea level.
We are talking about potential machine learning, AI developing into a place and space where maybe humans would be subservient to the AI. I don't know. There seems to be a lot of problems and not even to mention some of the things that are much smaller, but those are some of the big ones. How do you as a futurist see the future and hopefully set us on a more optimistic path and what do you see?
I guess you get what you focus on as well and so I like to say rather than an optimist, I'm actually a realist. And so I understand that there are a definitely these big problems and I think that's where the opportunity come home. And so I'm a big fan and believer that the world's biggest problems are also the world's biggest business opportunities.
And so I don't think we've ever had more access to information than we have in the past. And so utilizing information is power. I'll geek out with you for a little bit about superheroes, if I can. And I actually think exponential technology is like a super power.
And so how do you actually go to the Avengers headquarters for all the Marvel fans and be able to get the tools that you need to solve a big problem, if that's what's on your mind. And like any good sci-fi movies when aliens invade or anything really bad happens, we all work together and live happily ever after.
And so it's not quite that simple when you mention that we might be living in the matrix soon, and the AI is actually taking over and looking after us and we're reporting to AI. But I think about that and I think about even some of those different technologies and it's been International Women's Day just recently and I was actually thinking about Wonder Woman. And I think she's a wonderful Amazonian character and she has the Truth Lasso.
And to think about that Truth Lasso and I go, well, actually, if you think about the technology that would exist in being able to do that and the technologies that are actually converging now to be able to have some sort of lie detector, then we do actually have visual recognition software now that can understand micro expressions to be able to tell if someone's telling the truth and we've got all of these other data and sensors and whatnot.
And so if we actually were able to work together in a bigger sense, and I have this vision, if you think about the world like an emergency room in a hospital and what hospitals are able to do, not so amazingly just now, but what they do is actually when they have a problem or someone presents to an emergency room, they're able to triage the problem, they're able to prioritize it and then help everyone collaborate that human productivity to be able to solve the most immediate problems first.
And so there's some challenges in the world now. I know the Ukraine situation is huge and we've seen networks globalize and be able to work together to be able to support people over in Ukraine. And we've never had so much opportunity to make a difference. I actually bought an NFT from On Chain Monkey and it's the 10,000 monkey collection organized and categorized into a picture of the world with a heart over Ukraine.
And we're able to mint these NFTs and raise funds for the Ukraine. And I know there's been a lot of initiatives for that. But I guess the realist in me says with exponential technology, there's also exponential villains.
So when in the past a bank robber might have been able to walk into a bank and steal a bag of money, now then it's quite different to that because they could actually wipe everyone's bank accounts in one go overnight.
So how do we actually be the generations to create the systems and the frameworks and the cybersecurity and all of these different technologies that are going to protect humanity going forward, and now is kind of the time for that.
So is there a battle for the future between the technologists of the forces of good and evil and hopefully the forces of good prevail?
I think that's always the case, isn't it? There's always going to be some form scarcity. I've got a model and a philosophy around this. Around why people actually do what they do. And it's the same as good people, why do they do what they do when they know what they know?
So actually how to get fit and to be in really good shape, all of the tools and so strategies are out there, but it's our psychology that might hold us back. And so what is the psychology of the population? And we've currently got 7.89 billion people on the planet at the moment.
So how do you actually look at those 7.89 billion people and understand are they in scarcity or abundance mindset? And Maslow's hierarchy explained with food, shelter, water, and what not, not to be able to have everyone's face needs met to then help them self actualize and want to give back.
And I actually, one of my greatest fears at the moment is that people are looking externally for fulfillment instead of internally. And so if you can actually individually have all areas of your life in abundance and then your business in abundance then you're most likely to actually have an impact on the world, as opposed to, if you have scarcity in any areas of your life then there's going to be challenges.
And like Tony Robbins actually has a formula and he says, people only need two things in life. Number one is the science of achievement. And number two is the art of fulfillment. And where do we get our fulfillment from?
And if I stack onto that, then I think we've actually on the planet right now, we've got 50 billion devices and 1 trillion sensors. And in the next 10 years, we're going to have 500 billion devices and 100 trillion sensors. And almost calling it this future of perfect knowledge where you can know anything, anywhere, anytime.
So for example, even this call that we're having now, you might be able to know in the next few years, my micro expressions of how engaged I am in this conversation, how optimistic I actually am, or am I pessimistic? And I'm just saying something different.
And so I think there's a huge mega trend on transparency and that the tools that we'll actually have in those next five to 10 years will allow us to be able to understand scarcity and know when someone's in scarcity and be able to help them with what they need when they need it.
So we don't end up with exponential villains who have this power play, or need fulfillment externally that end up going and doing really bad things.
Just so my audience can understand it, because your mind moves a little bit faster, and not just a little bit faster than maybe where everyone else is at. I think the thing you're talking about is some kind of biometric sensor that can read your expressions and then it'll give me some data to understand like, Lisa's uncomfortable right now.
Lisa's paying attention. Where if there's a disconnect between what is being said and what the biometric data reveals, then at least I'm aware of that, is that what you're talking about?
Yeah. I think we've made huge advancements in visual recognition software as well. And so I'm excited about augmented reality and whether it be Apple or Google glasses or whichever launches first, I think that we'll actually have this physical and digital view of the world. And so those glasses will be able to share a lot more information.
So at the moment I have an OrCam MyMe, and it's a little camera that I wear and it actually connects to all of my social networks and my LinkedIn, and it pings me someone's name two meters before they actually are in my immediate proximity to be able to remind me that I know this person they're in my network, here's their name.
Here's any reminders I've set for myself on them. And here's something that I wanted to discuss or whatever it may be. So I think those devices, and there's a huge conversation in that around ethics and privacy. And this is the world that we live in at the moment, because it's moving so fast we do need to look at all of these different things.
But I think the ability that we'll have as humans is going to be a lot more in the not too distant future. So talking about visual recognition and being able to know if you're actually happy or sad, I might know that as I'm walking down the street and approaching you. And I like the term, and we're actually talking a lot about NFTs and the metaverse and whatnot.
And I think in just that conversation, I look at the physical world and the digital world and the combined word of the phygital world is the new term now, and that's the combination of the physical and the digital and where they overlay.
And we're actually going to be living in this phygital world in the future that's where things like NFTs and the metaverse and having a metaverse strategy is going to be so important for every person who wants to participate in that wave of technology. That could be the next biggest thing.
Okay. I think that's a perfect segue to us talking about NFTs. Now in the artistic world, the people that I know they're pretty divided in terms of what NFT represents for them. For some, it's a massive opportunity for them to build wealth and interest in the art to tap into new technologies, to find an audience for things that previously might not have been viewed with much value.
And then there's some that are saying, this is a giant pyramid Ponzi scheme, and it's horrible for the environment. I know you know more than most. So set the record straight for us. What is your take on NFTs?
Yeah. I guess I'll take a step back and just quickly with technology, I think that the world moves in different waves of technology. And being able to understand those waves is really important for business success. So I've got a little bit of a business strategy angle on this.
And one of my advisors Bill Tai, who is very prominent in the NFT space and in Web3 and the metaverse technologies, he actually said that all business is like surfing. And being in Australia I love a good surfing analogy. And he says that when you're actually paddling out, it's almost you're getting your education and whatnot.
But then what happens is you'll sit out the back of the wave and you'll bob up and down and you'll wait for a little while for the right wave to come on. And I think in businesses, this might be with an R&D trend. It might be with actually starting a new business where people might be in a normal 9:00 to 5:00 job, and they want to start their own business.
So they're bobbing up and down out the back. And then the art is choosing the right wave. And when you actually decide which wave you're going to catch, you need to paddle fast, you need the skill to arrive the wave and then you actually need to know when to get off as well. And so I look at some of these waves of technologies and the trends, even just over the last 20 years.
And I know we were having this conversation around content, and I think about business strategy back in the early 2000s and Web 2.0 where everyone needed a website and everyone's thought that websites were going to be this huge, big business thing where they'd create a website and all this traffic would come and their business would flourish, but that wasn't quite the case because they learned that they needed to add value and the website had to have value.
And so businesses went through this get a website phase and then in the later notice 2000s, we had the SEO, paid advertising, PPC, everyone needed SEO. And then when we came into the early 20s of the 2010 to 2015, we were sort of looking at different social media strategies and everyone needed to have social media.
And as the businesses have sort of gone through this phase with digital technologies, some people will jump on the bandwagon really fast and they'll create great businesses out of it and they'll go for a full digital strategy and some have waited and have been left a little bit behind.
And so I look at now with NFTs and a metaverse strategy and combining that with the phygital kind of the convergence of the digital physical space. And I actually see NFTs not just as artwork and I see the metaverse more as an opportunity for businesses to create a strategy around.
And so being able to be an early learner in this opportunity, I think that's where some of these big business opportunities are at the moment. And people are building and buying land in the metaverse.
And I think about the economic opportunity that it provides to all of these people in developing nations, but anyone with a computer and internet, anything that you can do in the physical world, you can actually do in the digital world.
So whether you want to be a fashion designer or you want to be an architect, or you want to actually design anything, there's all these different opportunities now in the metaverse. And so a couple of investments that I've made.
One of them super world where they're actually tying an overlay of the physical world to the digital world, and you can buy that digital space in super world and then some of the others where they're actually created completely different universes and it's where people are hanging out. Organizations and businesses like [Fortnight 00:27:10], where they've actually just got a lot of people.
You've got XIN, Infinity where you've got over 2 million daily active users and 6 billion or so of economic value traded in the last so many months since it started. So I think where it's going is the need that businesses are going to have a metaverse strategy full stop and that includes NFTs. And it might just be things like membership.
And I know membership's been a really great one. There's some different ways that the people are actually utilizing their NFT is as a utility token. So I'll pause for a second see if you've got questions, because I think we go into different types of NFTs from here and then how people can really make the most of it.
But I guess Web3 technologies and moving into that space and where it's fully transparent and using blockchain technology provides a huge opportunity for businesses as well.
Yes. Wonderful. Okay. There's a lot here to process. And at the rate in which your mind is going, it's people are probably going to need to listen to this a couple of times to pull apart everything you've said, but that's the beautiful of a recorded piece of content is we don't have to feel super stressed out.
So if you're feeling that everyone take a deep breath, it's okay, there's a lot of terms that you may want to look up. I'm not going to go in and define those right now because I don't think that's the best use of Lisa's time and our time together. In relation NFTs I understand that there's a couple of ways that you can create value with it.
It can be for pure arts and just the ownership of a non fungible token, a one of one, a super rare kind of thing. You can tie utility to it. It could be a proof of attendance. It could unlock other things into a membership, a digital ticket if you will.
And you mentioned in our conversation, we haven't talked about yet, but I'm super fascinated by this because I hadn't thought about it until you said it, which is using the NFT in creating smart contracts to contribute it to a charity.
So it can be used as a fundraising thing so that every time the NFT exchanges hands as it increases in value, the creator gets some value, the seller gets in value and the charity if you so decide gets value from it as well. So that's a really neat idea. What other uses can NFT be used for? Is it unlimited and is only finite by our own imagination?
Yeah. I guess we're seeing NFTs be used in different ways. And so we're actually talking about Metagood, which is a company that I invested in which is doing NFTs for good. And if I take a step back, I think about what NFTs mean and really they're just content.
And so similar to the early 2000s, you create a website and expect people to come, it's not the case. So if you're going to create an NFT, it's really what's the value in that content. And we're having a conversation about content itself. And I liken an NFT to actually just creating a stamp duty style proof of ownership onto a piece of content.
So whether that be a photo, a piece of art, a video, there's all sorts of different types of content that you would want to mint as an NFT to prove ownership. And so that's probably the one thing with NFTs is there's actually Mark Zuckerberg just announced that Southwest just last week and he said that Instagram they're going to be minting their content on Instagram as NFTs.
And so we're having this conversation when we met a few months ago about how I don't think any content online won't be minted in the future. And the future of content is actually that everything will be an NFT. And so where this is going is ideally that people get rewarded for what they create. So I look at Metagood and to segue into that, it's actually around personal branding.
And what do you want to have in your digital wallet? And I think about concerts. So for example, in the '90s or early 2000s I would go to a concert and I would keep my ticket stub. I don't know if anyone else kept their ticket stub.
You might have put it on your wall or it's something that you actually proud that you went on, it was part of your personal branding that you went to that concert. And so the Super Bowl did a really great job of actually having the tickets to the Super Bowl was an NFT.
And that is now in people's digital wallet. And so from a personal branding point of view, I think the kids that are playing for and buying all these skins are very conscious of their personal brand online and what they actually own and what people can see of their digital presence.
And so as we go into the conversation around Metagood, I do own some On Chain Monkeys, which as part of the transaction every time they're traded, then 10% goes through open sea and half of that goes to the Dow for the community to vote on how that's spent and half goes to building out more the platform for Meta Good.
And so that's a really great way to be able to see and have the community add value. And then there's another one that we did with UNICEF with the Giga Connect Project, which is mapping out the schools and internet connectivity for UNICEF worldwide of how many schools have connected to the internet and at what speed.
So they created these digital kingdom set of 1000 collection, which was the digital representation of how many schools were connected in each region and area. And 20% of that NFT actually goes to helping these schools connect to the internet. So I'm really proud to have that in my wallet as my own personal branding.
And I think from membership point of view as well, I want to be proud and have an NFT of the memberships that I have been part of. Your community Chris, would be awesome to have that NFT and be more involved with you.
I'd be very proud of that as well as, I think World of Women had a great example the other day, they put out and that all World of Women NFT holders, they're actually going to have a say, they're going to make a movie that Reese Witherspoon is involved in and everyone that's an NFT token holder is going to be voting on the content in that movie and the decisions of that movie. And so we're moving towards this decentralized way of decision making, which is really cool.
Wow. Okay. So I really am intrigued by the concept of everything is minted. Now, currently the process is a little bit complicated, at least for me because I'm a pretty newbie person when it comes to this. I just started my MetaMask wallet and I have two pieces of art in there so I'm just barely scratching the surface here.
There are gas fees associated minting. And so in order for everything to be minted, the expense of verifying these things and putting it on the blockchain has to be so simple.
So just pennies of even that much. And it has to have a lot of machines to do this. And are you seeing. What's the timeline in which you're seeing this is going to happen and how does this happen given the way to things are happening now?
Yeah. I look at the price performance and it's actually Moore's law that the computational capacity it doubles every two years that the price performance halves. And so what we're seeing with technology is that it is getting cheaper. A few years ago, it was a few thousand dollars to mint something.
So it was just completely not available to anyone and it wasn't going to be anything that was going to go large scale. Now there's technically a lot of sub chains. And so someone actually likened it to me to the subway where you've actually got your country, your fast train and then you've got all these sort of subway, sub chains that are actually making minting a lot more efficient.
And so I think we're seeing that you can mint things for as little as 15 cents at the moment, and that's expected to get less and less. And even for Mark Zuckerberg to come out and say, Instagram's going to be minting things when they're uploaded onto Instagram, I think that's indicating that it's going to be a lot cheaper.
I know there's a lot of conversations around the environment and the impact of that and computational capacity and all the rest. And I think with any big problems like that, there's going to be technologies and there's going to be startups and there's going to be businesses that are actually launched to be able to do that in different ways.
We're not too far off quantum computing, but also I liken it to our lifestyles today are actually way more energy taking than they were 100 years ago, 200 years ago. 150 years ago we only had 1 billion people in the population and we lived in our local communities and we didn't travel by air and we didn't do all of these things and we didn't have the internet.
So absolutely there's going to be energy that's needed for this. So the most efficient way to do it is obviously going to be the best thing, but I don't think it's going to stop in a hurry because of the environment, only make people more aware that they need to be able to create more businesses to make it more efficient.
What are the real world implications of Mark Zuckerberg saying everything on Instagram will be minted in the near future? If Mark Zuckerberg mints it, what does that mean for me as a creator who owns it? What's the benefit? What's the point of that?
I think this is going to come down to the smart contract. And so I've been talking to businesses around what you actually need for an NFT or a metaverse strategy. And the first thing is the strategy, and this is almost like a digital marketing agency would go through a process and say, here's your plan, here's your strategy.
So you need the strategy, you need the artists, or to be able to create the content of what it is that you're going to mint. You need the technical side of things of someone to be able to, or to understand how to upload it and how to mint it yourself and then you need the legal side of things to be able to understand what that smart contract includes.
So they're the first elements. And then you actually need almost like a content manager to be able to make sure it's getting the views. It's almost like a social media manager role that you would have in the past. So having a look at that, the smart contract is such an important thing.
So for example, if you create a song and you actually mint it and you can put it up there and let's say on OpenSea, and you can license people to utilize that song and it'll be written into that smart contract, or depending on what platform you use of what you actually get for that content.
So it'd be really interesting to see what platforms actually do now and what they're offering similar to how paid advertising was, or actually YouTube ads and YouTube would pay you for so many views and whatnot.
I think that each platform's going to have their own smart contract and it's going to mean something different, which content creators going to have to decide and do the research of which platforms they actually want to double down on and what's going to be most beneficial for them.
I like that you said that. Okay. So let me see if I can understand and process what you just said. The way that most social platforms work today is whether you know know this or not, when you upload content, they kind of own it, right?
YouTube is one of the few that will actually pay you in a very passive way that if your content performs in relative to the demographic it attracts, they send you a check every single month. They send us a check and it's pretty cool. Currently Instagram and Facebook do not do that for me.
So I is the general concept is if Facebook or Instagram wanted to do this, the more your content on Instagram gets shared or liked or commented on that some metric of engagement that they would then determine and allocate a certain amount of money to you if they wish to, that they could give you nothing or they can give you a lot or something in between. Is that the general idea?
I think they have the opportunity to do that. Absolutely. And that's going to come down to the terms and conditions that you sign when you sign up to the platform.
Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.
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I'm Mike Pesca, host of The Gist podcast. Every day I bring you news you may not have thought about in a certain light. I do a spiel. Think of it as an op-ed, but usually more fun. You might hear something like this.
Actually, that was recent guest Al Franken, from an interview. We have an interview every day. Here's clip that you're definitely going to ponder the context of.
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That was Ralph Nader and who can disagree. The Gist unexpected, but constructive every day where you get your podcasts.
Welcome back to our conversation.
One of the things I really admire, and I'm not getting paid to say this about Google and YouTube is the amount of resources they spend and share with creators, giving us access to advisors and consultants, incentivizing us to make content, providing us physical space to create content.
It's a pretty neat community considering it's a ginormous corporation that doesn't have to do anything for any of the creators, but they choose to. And I really admire that about them. I hope that more companies of their size would follow suit, but I haven't seen it. So maybe this is the beginning. The tides are shifting to kind of keep it with the whole surfing analogy perhaps.
Yeah. Definitely. And I think the time is actually coming where people do have the ability to have a say, and this is where we're seeing the mega trend of all these centralized organizations. So things like centralized Facebook as you say, and Google, and even banks have all been centralized.
And with Web3 technologies, everything's getting decentralized. And so the ability to be able to make decisions in these platforms that are popping up that are decentralized. I was hearing about it, a technology the other day, just on banking itself.
And imagine going to an option where you want to buy a property and instead of going through a centralized organization like a bank, you actually create an NFT, you tokenize that.
Let's say it's a $1 million property, you tokenize that into a million different tokens and you offer that out to your community and they buy a token for a dollar each, which has a smart contract they might get paid X amount of interest or whatnot, but you've actually got a decentralized way to create finance and be able to buy property now.
And so I don't know that people are too familiar of all these Web3 technologies that are being created now. And I always say that technology is about three steps ahead of business application.
So where we're actually heading with these technologies is that people will have a lot more choice to be able to go decentralized and learn about organizations that they believe in and subscribe memberships of the thought leaders that they actually can share their opinion with. And as we go into that, we're sort of touching on then Dows as well and this concept of decentralized autonomous organizations.
And like I was saying with On Chain Monkey with the monkeys, every time they're traded. And I think in the first month there was about $8 million worth of trading volume that happened, which was $800,000, which was 10% and $400,000 went to the community Dow for them to vote on how it was spent and what charities it went to and whatnot. And we've been doing that with help for Afghanistan now, but it's the community is actually empowered now.
And I heard from Southwest. Southwest there's was a great quote that the secret power of a Dow and Web3 is the ability for community to bond each other and value accrued at the edge of community that enables powerful change and movements that humanity hasn't seen yet. So technology is actually going to empower us to be able to make a lot more decisions and have a bigger impact in the world.
That reminds me of a very real world thing. In that I think the idea of war in the 21st century is so different than just say a few decades ago. That our countries are so intertwined with trade, commerce, finance, cultures, travel, that it's kind of very difficult to go to war with each other and that's a good thing.
And we can see that play out in real time right now. So in just grafting onto that comment about the more we feel connected to each other, the less likely we're going to steal from each other, to harm one another, or to have aggressive actions because it's we're only hurting ourselves, right? So the more we feel connected versus divided, I think the world's going to be a better place.
I have so many questions for you about how a Dow would work when it's decentralized. And you set it up say for this example of On Chain Monkey, there's $400,000 that the community gets to decide where it goes. How does one even govern that? How does that even work just on a conceptual level?
Yeah. Typically, a lot of communities are actually using discord to be able to then vote. And like in the community for On Chain Monkey, we actually, people get rewarded in bananas for helping others in the community so that community help is really encouraged.
I liken it almost to if you're going to do a business application and strategy around it, I'd liken it to almost what a social club used to be in large corporate, where everyone would contribute a small percentage of their pay to a social club and then you'd have a committee that would actually decide how are you going to spend those funds.
And so I look at different communities now and how they can create a Dow and engage their community. Then it is almost like simplifying some of those concepts. So being able to go, well, how can we actually allocate or pull the funds to our community to be able to decide on what is done with it?
And I think early days back when I started creating business intelligence dashboards, I gave people the option on their invoice to pay an extra 10% more and that if anyone was struggling and their business wasn't doing so well, they could then utilize this pool of funds and the community could vote to be able to then have them keep providing services when they can't afford it.
And I think that's kind of the power of community capital is how in your organization can you allocate a pool of funds, but then also engage your community. I love the example of GitHub, who were just sold to I think it was Microsoft billions of dollars and their valuation was in the billions, but they had no assets, hardly any staff and no IP.
And it was actually the community and the power of the community that's so valuable now. And how do you actually engage your community is probably the secret to creating a Dow.
Does some oversight have to happen from some central figure or the organization, the members of the community just figure out, well, we need seven members to decide or two or 17, or how does that work? It's almost like a government in itself. And do we have to understand how to organize these things?
Yeah. I think anything that's automated, you're actually setting a number of different rules. And so that's that smart contract of if this and that, and this is how it's actually going to operate and people opt in to be able to be a part of that.
So it does need someone to create the rules, obviously, that's the purpose of the person I guess creating the Dow is being able to identify, hey, I want to be able to empower action around this specific area or for the community.
And so for example, with us we're actually doing a number of different initiatives with startups and we run boot camps and whatnot, and we've actually been doing portfolio companies and we've got equity in companies and we are empowering our experts and our faculty with some of that equity.
And so it doesn't matter, I guess, how you do it or what value it is. It's how do you actually contribute or. A community is a place where you go to give. And so what is it the community bonds together on and how do you then double down on that?
The parallel that I'm trying to understand here is I used to serve on a nonprofit and there's rules of governance, bylaws, and the people who started the nonprofit are no longer steering the ship because in their own bylaws, they can only serve so many terms and then they were termed out.
And so it will continue. And it's also not susceptible to any one person living or participating, it could live forever. Theoretically, if the governance rules are set in place and I guess the board of directors can vote to change the laws and there's certain laws. Is that kind of how the Dow works? You need good legal guidance and governance, and then it kind of has its own life.
Okay. I finally understand.
And that's why some of these platforms can help. I think that's part of lifelong learning, isn't it? It's understanding what some of these big mega trends are and what might impact you and then how do you actually make the most of it.
And I love these conversations and definitely conversations in the best way is just tuning into the right people, the right information to be able to empower yourself to make the most of it.
And if I'm really excited about this, I'm listening to this and I'm like, okay, Chris and Lisa, you guys have convinced me, there's a lot of good that could be done, we've been limited by our imagination and now we could do something good. Is there a course?
I don't think there could be a book because it's just happening so fast, but is there a course or resource that you can point us at either through something that you do or third party where someone can get caught up to speed? Because there seems like there's a lot of information out there and trying to process all of this in some kind of holistic way has been difficult for a lot of us.
Yeah. Absolutely. So we're creating a lot of courses around this topic at the moment. So we've got a number on our digital platform on as well. So people can see what I'm doing at lisaandrews.global. We're putting a link on there to the different programs and courses that we've got coming up as well as following my Instagram, interviewing a number of amazing people at the moment in this space. Yeah.
Any of our course and programs, absolutely please follow along. Chris, I'd love to have a conversation with you on A Future by Design webinar, that's a series that we're actually doing to be able to create this future that we want to live in. And then I'd also recommend that people follow Metagood an Bill Tai and Amanda Terry.
So they are part of the ACTAI community that I've first learned about a little recent. I've been the creators of On Chain Monkey. And Bill's been instrumental in creating the first NFT for social good with the Honu Kitty for CryptoKitties a number of years ago. So it's definitely up to date on someone to follow.
I will follow up with Lisa afterwards, get all the resources and reference and links so don't panic everyone, we'll include that in the show notes. So just make sure you check out the show notes for relevant links, resources and where you can follow Lisa on Instagram and kind of consume some of the content. I did watch most of that interview, that kind conversation you had with, did you say her name was Amanda?
Yeah. I think that was-
That was relatively recent in your feed, right?
Yes. Okay. Good.
[inaudible 00:51:17] December.
Okay. So there's two more big questions and then I have a selfish question. So I just want to save my selfish question for later. So here's another big question for you is, I'm still having hard time wrapping my head around the metaverse and Web3, are these two interchangeable terms?
Is the metaverse space, some second life reality where it's not real and it's kind of virtual, but there's value in it? Can you explain that to us in layman terms?
I guess the metaverse for me is really that convergence of the digital and physical world. And so we've got so much in the digital space at the moment. It's just going to be delivered in different ways, whether you're in virtual reality or augmented reality.
We've got the physical world, we've got our digital world we kind of live in both already now, and it's just going to merge a little bit more. So it's the phygital space for me, whether you call it the metaverse or the digital and physical world converging, it's how you choose to live in the digital space.
Okay. Now I know you mentioned some pop culture references about Iron man and Tony Stark. Is it in a way where it's not physical and it's not virtual or digital? Are we swiping things in our physical space it's really not there, but we kind of are able to interact with it. Is it your sensor that tells you, hey, this person you know, you met three years ago about this, this and that. Is it something like that?
Yeah. I guess I'd love my own personal J.A.R.V.I.S and AI. And I know if you remember the scene in Iron man where he can just pull up the scene of anything on his screen and have a look and analyze it all and that really it's a parallel universe really, because it's this digital world that's interacting with the physical world. A.
Nd so I actually think we're in the metaverse now and we're actually talking over video and camera now and our voices are being recorded. And so people watching this, they're in some form of the metaverse where they're in this digital space.
So I think there's going to be a lot of different digital spaces where you can spend your time. And it's almost like these parallel universes that is kind of unlimited parallel universes, where you can emerge yourself in the digital space.
Years ago I used to play a lot of video games, first person shooters call of duty. I would play a Skyrim. And Skyrim, I'm purely interacting with computer generated characters, but in call of duty.
My friends and I, my real life, we would gather in the digital space and we would do battle with others and we would sweat and get blisters on our hands and all that kind of stuff. So there was some physical interaction. Is it kind of like that?
Yeah. You've had a life in the metaverse for most of your life by the sounds of it.
Yeah, I think so then. Okay. So I'm not scared after at all.
Yeah. It's just a term, I guess and it's how you actually apply it. And when you've got things like Web3 technologies, which is essentially like blockchain technologies that can give fast, transparent information, then it's just making it even more accessible to more people and the ability to do more in it.
Okay. Wonderful. I'm less and less scared every second I talk to you. Okay. Quantum computing, I hear this term being thrown around. And usually when I hear the word quantum computing, I hear this other word, China, and then all of a sudden I'm like, should I be scared again? What is quantum computing and what is its promise and what is the potential challenges that we face?
Yeah. I guess you sort of going back to Moore's law now, a little bit that over the time since we've actually used computers to help us think. The first paradigm was actually the punch cards in the industrial revolution when you're actually utilizing a computer to help us think.
And then we went through in the '50s, Gordon Moore discovered that working at Intel that our computational capacity doubled every two years and the price halve. And we've been through these shifts in paradigms where computational capacity has doubled every two years almost. And we're running out of room on chip space with computer chips.
And so quantum computers is almost this next paradigm, which is the technology that's going to empower computational capacity to be a lot faster than it currently is. So I guess the challenges with that is with machine learning and AI is the ability to do a lot more analysis. Your Apple watch actually tells you now it's time to stand.
And you think about quantum computing and the ability that it's actually going to able to read your entire biology and physiology and be able to help you be your best self. I think the more information and the more frameworks and systems where we actually give it a goal and an outcome, it'll be able to crunch the numbers a lot quicker to be able to do that.
Okay. Is quantum computing describing an idea or an actual processor or something? Because it sounds like you're talking about the rate in which technology is speeding up it's going to break the current paradigm and we're moving into another space where we're going to be able to analyze and crunch data in speeds and volumes that cannot previously conceive of and so that opens up all kinds of analysis and connectivity, right. So is it an actual new technology or is it the idea of being able to do so many things so quickly?
Yeah. A quantum computer is actually a beautiful, it looks like chandelier. They're actually a different way of doing computational capacity. So it will be a computer that we may all have. I don't think we would all have one in our own homes, but we would probably be driven by quantum computing that would be connected to our phones and chips to be able to help things move a lot faster.
Is this a thing that exists already? There are quantum computers in existence?
Yeah. So imagine now all the content that you create, everything's going to be real time, fast speeds. And I think that's when we talk about the metaverse and at the moment it might be a little bit clunky with internet speed and you can't actually have a full hologram of yourself into another digital space.
When computational capacity can allow things to happen a lot faster and a lot easier then we're going to be able to do a lot more in that digital space, just because of the computational capacity.
Right. So it's kind of in my lame way of understanding it, is like 5G is low latency, zero latency, super fast connectivity. And the way that say Unreal Engine is able to now render and process things in real time, which would've blown people's minds just five years ago.
So the fidelity, the life likeness of things and the speed in which it could be delivered to you is at its latency is so low that it feels like it's actually all real and happening in real to time, right?
Okay. Wonderful. All right. You've given me a lot of clarity. I want to ask you a very selfish question if I may and feel free to say, Chris, I'm not going to do that, and I won't be offended at all. You mentioned something that is tapping into an idea that I've been thinking about and I think you just gave me a new idea on how to think about it.
You said right now, okay. Instead of going to a bank to buy a piece of real estate, you could activate a community and borrow money from them in a way that they would crowdfund the purchase of this. And depending on how the contract was written, they could own a percentage of it or whatever it is you want to give them in a small exchange for that.
So my little brain says, okay, everybody that invests in this fund to buy this property, when the property is sold, the net gain of it, a certain percentage will be split relative to the number of shares you own. And some people might get real excited about that as long as they trust you and the contracts are solid. First, did I understand that right? You call it tokenizing or having a token to purchase real estate.
Okay. So my very selfish question for you is this is, I run a very modest education company, and I'm really interested in investing money in creating what I think is a lab for 21st century teaching and learning for remote learning and scaling.
In order for me to accelerate my plans, because I'm patient, but I don't want to be more patient than I need to be, rather than take outside investment capital, which I've had some offers on, I would rather just do it through our community which I think is quite strong and would be open to this kind of idea.
So if I wanted to build a lab where I can experiment and give value to the community, because your brain is so different and big around this, what are some ways that I might approach this? Because I feel like I'm just boxed into like, this looks like this, and I'm not thinking big enough.
Yeah. This is great question. And I think I shared earlier around the businesses being limited by the psychology and the skill of the owner. And I love that you're asking these questions and that you've got this vision. So totally, absolutely, it's doable and why not have the community as a part of it.
And I think that's the idea of community capital and that Dow of what rules and what would you actually be offering around it? So it sounds so incredible. And I know that there'd be so many people that would get value from it. So to actually go about it would be, what's your strategy, what's the vision.
So similar vision, mission goals, same as doing any business plan, being able to identify this is exactly what we want to do and then you're actually going out to the community and making them an offer. So for their contribution then they would actually be part of it they would get.
And I'm not sure the type of rights of what you'd have of, would it be time spent in this center? Would it be actually air time? Would it be being a part of it? Would it be to be a member? Would it be to contribute content?
Would it be, what are those things that you actually want to add value to the members and say that, hey, by contributing or buying this token, that you're going to get all of these benefits. And then part of those benefits are that you can decide how it's run, because what a better way to have the diverse thought of a community to be able to help create the future and that combined learning space.
Do you have some, because we hear about some really wonderful, amazing creative uses of the blockchain and to empower artists and creators and charities and for good at companies and organizations.
We've also heard disproportionately a number of really bad, poorly executed projects that are really about, as far as I can tell and I don't want to say this on a legal level, but they appear to be scams. People talking about rug pools and things like that, where it's a pump and dump operation.
What are some things that someone should avoid knowing that these are either you should not set this up or if you hear people talking this way, be very wary and do your due diligence before you go and pledge any of your money.
Yeah. Definitely. I think before you invest in anything you need to do you're research and your due diligence. And unfortunately we live in a hype society where people are happy to jump on the bandwagon because their friends have invested or someone that they know has invested.
And that would be a bad investment decision, whether it's in NFTs or tokens or this way, no matter what. So I guess, I'm a big believer how you do one thing is how you do anything.
So the due diligence that you would do to go and buy shares in a company or go buy something on the stock exchange, if you're going to do it with an NFT, do that quantitative end qualitative analysis, understand who's behind it, understand what it actually does, spend at least a couple of days if you not a week researching everything you can about it before you actually put your money into anything.
Yeah. There's a lot of hype and we've heard of stories and people touting on the internet how their lives have been transformed from a financial point of view having invested in something and it working out for them. And for everyone that celebrates I feel like there's a handful of other people who have unfortunately been on the bad end of "Poor investment", right?
So it's quite sad to see that because people profiting from other people's, I don't know, their enthusiasm or their naivete.
Yeah. I guess it comes down to the strengths and the values of the community as well. So you would know joining any community or if you go and you hang out with a group of people, what their values are and if you belong there or not.
So it's a little bit harder to do it when you're in the digital space and it's a digital investment, but you can still do it. You can still meet the people. You can meet the community, you can interact on their discord or whatever it may be, but that's part of that research phase.
Okay. Thank you very much for helping me out with understanding this. I see that we're a little bit over an hour. I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking to you about any projects that you're working on, that you're super excited about, that you wanted to share with our audience.
Oh gosh I think for me it's that constant learning and implementing. So being able to help people. We've got the education part of the business where we do a number of courses in this space. We've got the investing side of the business, where I love investing in new technologies that are going to be completely world changing.
So we do actually get them to apply through the Extreme Tech Challenge. Ordinarily the applications have just closed for this year, but it's a worldwide competition where you can apply and share your startup with our community of amazing people who are able to have that community capital and help people be one degree of separation from anything they need.
So definitely from an investment point of view, I'd love to know about new technologies. And then we also have a professional services side of things, so where we can be able to help implement some of this.
So if we're going through, when someone needs to do an NFT strategy or a metaverse strategy, being able to actually create that we do it in a do it yourself, do it with me or do it for me kind of fashion.
So definitely would love to help anyone in the community if they've got any questions to be able to join in to our community. And I know Chris that we're going to be doing some work together and being able to explore this topic even further is really exciting.
Wonderful. Now you being an energized introvert, the introverted me needs to know too, what do you do to recharge? When you're out and speaking and meeting with people, what do you do to kind of recharge your batteries?
I actually love my comfort zone, I think is the challenge. So I'm a little bit of a homebody. So I have this balance between reading and learning and being at home in my own little happy bubble and doing adventure sports to get me out of my comfort zone. I think it was Tony Robbins that said life begins at the end of your comfort zone.
So I kite surf, I snow kit. I have this innate ability to try and not to say no to anything. If something scares me, then typically it's fill your fear and go forward anyway. So traveling for me is definitely a big one to be able to reenergize and be out in nature. And I live on the water, swimming, getting into the ocean, definitely helps.
So what is the next scary thing that you've committed yourself to where the outcome is kind of unclear for you? Anything you can share with us?
Oh gosh, I actually haven't committed to anything yet. I did toy with doing a triathlon, but I haven't committed yet, but I think it's going to be something like that. Pushing the physical boundaries.
Okay. So when you talked about Iron Man, you're talking about Tony Stark, but also talking about the Ironman that's run in Hawaii, is that what you do too?
No. Definitely no. It's the fact that I really like rocket boots. I did do the electric surfboard, the electric hydrofoil the other day, which was kind of cool getting out on the water and I'm loving the wing foil at the moment.
I'm actually going to get out on my roller blades with the wing foil, you can do it on the basketball courts and be able to just do something a little bit different and out there. But I think practicing on my roller blades will get me ready for rocket boots.
So your combination of super nerdy, smart, tech venture capitalist, adventures, free spirited, kite surfing, adventure sports kind of person and futurist.
Yeah. I think I just learned from challenges and having two kidney transplants and whatnot is that life is too short. You actually do need to get out there and make the most of it and have fun and just enjoy it.
And I think that energy is what is contagious and people want to be around and do good things. And I love the idea of positive momentum and when you're around other people, that one plus one is more than two. And I think that's what excites me about the momentum and helping shift the world for good.
Wonderful. I love all of your energy. I really do. As an introvert it's a little bit much for me, but I just love listening to you. I was very excited to have this conversation, because after our trip to Cancun, I went back home and I was telling friends, man, I think I got my stuff together and I talked to somebody like Lisa and I'm like, I don't know anything guys.
And the only thing I could say is, wait till she comes on our show, hear how she thinks and how she looks at the world and we're going to get a glimpse into the future. It's not as scary as we all think. And there's a place for all of us and there's something really exciting.
You did tell me this idea and that we touched upon in this episode that the future is for content creators, because whenever everything is minted, this idea of intellectual property theft is going to be very difficult because we're going to be able to trace things back to their source, with all this wonderful technology actually working in concert to support people who actually spend time, energy and creativity to make things, and you'll be rewarded for it somehow.
And so with that we wait with bated breath to see when this happens. You had told me probably five years and I said, five years, and your response even blew me away. It's like, no, it's probably going to happen and unless I just said five years not to scare you, but there it is for all of you. So thank you so much.
You're so welcome. And just to simplify it for everyone. These technology applications are always three steps ahead of business applications. So it is just choosing the right time for yourself and your business to be able to make the most of it.
Wonderful. Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you, Lisa. And I hope everybody, if you're curious about what's going on, you'll check the show notes because I think you're going to be rewarded with a bunch of resources and additional information that we can't all possibly cover in one episode here.
Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure.
My name's Lisa Andrews, and you are listening to the Futur.
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