Minimum Level Engagement

This is call 80, one, call 80,one officially, unofficially.It's an open agenda call.So what I want to do is justprioritize the questionsthat you have, what'son your mind, what's hotand bothering you atthis moment or challengesthat you're going through?OK, so we don't need this.It's just a placeholder.So does anybody want toarticulate their question?And I can write thisdown in shorthand,and then we'll go back and seewhich ones seem most relevantand then we'll attack it.Who's got a questionthey've been thinking about?Or do do I need to give youtime to sit down and thinkabout this?And we could do that too?Or is somebody ready to go?I can start.OK, go ahead.Yeah OK.You guys arechomping at the bit.Let's rock and roll.Go ahead.Go first.They don't all go at once now.OK, so I'll beginthen if that's OK.I do have twoquestions, but theyare very specific becauseChris, you once told in a videothat you also charge forthe non execution part.So if you sell a logo for,like I say, to 20,000 euros,does this also include allthe conversations about itapart from the actualstrategy sessions?Do you understand what I mean?I do.You asked it in a strange way.So it's hard for me to write.That's what my fingersare stuck right now.So are you asking how to chargefor the non execution parts?No, because my real question is.OK you said that you arecharging for the non executionparts.So but you also chargefor the strategy session.So if a customer callsyou about the logothat you sold them for twoor I mean, 20,000 euros?Mm-hmm You alsocharge for the phonecalls or good in the 20,000.OK do you charge forthe client calls, right?Yeah and then I have notone that we can handle.Not far away.Yeah OK, one timein the video, youwere playing with thecustomer and the customerasked if you would give themguarantee for your works.So you said no andthen raised the price.So you could givethem this guarantee.Yes the reason that youcouldn't give the guaranteefor the original price whereit was already a bit high,but you could give itfor the right price.Are you doing anythingdifferent then or.OK OK.Ask that question again.Just the question part so Ican capture your sentiment,I don't want to rewrite yourquestion too much because Iwant to show you guyshow you form questionsand how they'rereceived on my end.Right?OK.Go ahead.So my question is.What is the reason that youcouldn't give the guaranteeto the original price.So that you raised yourprice to give this guarantee?And if you were doing anythingdifferent for the race priceor something like that, ok?Yeah, that's it.I teach my computerhow to spell your name.Well, OK, who's next?I have a question.Go ahead.So I was watchingthe lead generationvideo it's mysecond week, so I'mtrying to catchup with everythingand pretty much my thing is Idon't have any clients, so I'mwatching the lead generation.Video and you mentionedthat the ideal clientmust have 1,000 times myminimum level of engagement.It might be an old videoor there's somethingthat I've been missing.Pretty much I'm asking likemy minimum level of engagementis around 2000.So I'm asking like, is itfutile to target clientswith 100 times the gross amountthat I want to charge for?So this is I'm going toput some zeros in here.OK, so if your minimum,your MLA is 2k,then your must gross$2 million, right?Yes, my question is,am I just wastingmy time if I target mom andpop shops that do 200 thousand?OK and I wasting my time withany one that is smaller, right?Yep beautiful, Demi.Thank you very much.And this is fantastic.OK, we're off to areally good start, guys.Who's next?I can fit in.OK, let me seewho's talking there.Is that reality?Yes, it's me.OK, go ahead.OK when I'm on a callwith the prospect,I'm having a hard timepivoting the conversationtowards a problem to solveinstead of list of deliverablesthe client needs.OK do you want toknow how to pivot?Not pivot, but wewere told that weneed to be paid for thethinking, so we ask,who are we talking to?What's the problemand challengesand what's getting in the way?But my challenge has beenthat if somebody contactedme to design a startupor a brand identityfrom scratch, whatis the problem?I can't seem to find theproblem, and I cannot ask him.I cannot ask him, what are you?What is the problemI'm trying to solve?Because the answer would be,I'm opening up a new businessand I need a visualidentity, or something.Oh, OK.I'm trying to think about howto ask this question right now.I think I know how to askit, but I would love helpfrom the group to phrasethis question OK, because I'ma big believer in this.There's a quote somewhere.I'm going to probablymess this up.I think we mentioned itin the business boot camp.A question well defined or wellphrase is 50% the solution.so you asking this questionin answering this question?You will also know how to askthis question to your client.You follow me.No, I don't.I don't want to bendyour brain a little bit,so it's the art of askingquestions is the problem.Because you're like, I can'tjust ask that question.I'll get stuck or theywon't have the answer.It's because we haven't askeda more beautiful question justyet, and we will.So listen to this.I understand the sentimentthat Richard is saying,so somebody else help me out.How do we phrase this question?Let's practice together, guys.Let's use ourcollective intelligence.How do nail the unseen question?How to what?How to nail downthe unseen question.OK that is an awkwardlyphrased thing,but it's a good start to nailingand things that are invisible.OK, somebody elsewant to try again.It captures the sentiment.Just need some wordsmithingout the surface.Yes, challenge how to surfacea challenge or a potential.Problem That's pretty good.OK is that ok?Richard?you could say also go ahead.You could say also something tothe effect of how to surface.The problem you're solving.OK even more specificsurface, a problemyou are solving,giving some context,the client has no idea thatthere's a problem to solve.I'm trying to pivot ittowards selling strategy.So is it something like howto surface the real problemthat you're solving asopposed to the problem theythink they have?Actually, actually, Chrisjust wrote exactly the issue.It's I need to diagnoseinstead of prescribe,but I'm not able topivot the conversationtowards smart diagnostics.OK, I'm not smart enough.How about from abusiness perspective?Mm-hmm And I have thisbook this book helps a lot.It's a good book.Yeah it talks about that stuff.It does.And we're going totalk about it for sure.OK all right.Excellent let'sdo one more page.And then we're goingto dive into this, ok?Who else wants tothrow something up?Well OK.I think I heard abunch of voices,but I saw Chelseaand go up first, so.OK, awesome.Chelsea Chelsea.So, Chelsea.Chelsea, perfect.Go ahead, Chelsea.Oh, I'm trying to practicemy questioning skills, so.OK OK.This goes back to where youwere going with Jonathan starkand talking aboutfixed based pricing,and he was recommendinglike the packages,like kind of a small,medium, large or both kindof discussing that.And my question is aroundwhen I'm creating a proposalwith three fixed fee optionskind of small, medium and largein my brain.I don't want to throw in.I think you talked aboutthis at some point.I don't want to throwin a whole bunchmore in the largepackage it makes.The large package largeis I'm spending more timegoing into depth with strategy,with competitive analysis.I'm like, I'm really getting inthere and spending more time,but not necessarilydelivering much.That's different,you know, like it'sthe distinction is in it'sa more sophisticated endresult that took more time, morethinking, more strategizing.But how do I list that out?Be like, well, you'regetting the same thing.This one just going to be betterbecause I put more time into itand I researched itlonger or whatever,like so I don'tknow how to justifythe distinction of differencesin packages whenever they'recomparing them.Oh, you didn't ask the question.So I'm not going towrite it for you.I didn't know.I'm like, OK, how?What's differentiate that?You looked at my screen.How did you see it?Yeah how to differentiatedifferent packages.You have differentprice options.Yeah the deliverablesand the three price.OK thanks, Chris.You help you.That's it.OK here's one thing Iwant you guys to do.I've noticed a pattern here.I noticed a patternand you guys haveheard me talk aboutthis before, whichis we always feel compelledto give a lot of context.We feel like we needto give context.So people can understandour point of view.But in fact, if you startwith the problem, the questionfirst and add contextas you go as necessary,you find that it actuallyis quite liberating.So I don't know if we weretaught this in grade school,in our church orwherever we go that wemust give everybody context.You know, you need toknow my story to know me.But that's a lot of information.I'll give you an example.Oftentimes, Ben burns orMatthew or somebody elsewill come into my office,say, Chris, we have good news,we have bad news, and they starttelling me all the information.I said, whoa, whoa, whoa.What are we talking about?He's like, oh, I'm so sorry.We need your opinion ifwe should go Yes or nowith this particular problem.Fantastic so you'relooking for a Yes or no?So now you cangive me the story.And now I'm able to listenmore intently because I knowwhat the heck to focus in on.So, guys, moving forward, let'stry and practice this practicein your personal life andyour professional life.Just get right to it in youremails, just get right to it.Don't beat around the bush andthen give context as necessary.OK, so I'm confused.How do I differentiate mydifferent price packages,as seen or discussed onJonathan Stark's episode?See, by phrasing it, thesequence does matter.OK all right.We'll do one or two more, andthen let's get out of here.So somebody elsehad said something.Go ahead.Hey, it's Abby.Hi hi, Abby.Can you hear me?I can hear you loud and clear.OK, so this just goesback to Demi's questionactually about lookingfor businesses thatare over a certain turnover.So what my question is,how where do you go?Is there a simple way offinding out that informationwithout literallygoing and searchingevery single individual companyin the UK at companies house?Or is there a kindof place you cango to look that information up?Probably I'm waiting foryou to form the questionso I can write it for you.You want me to pick up.How can I find outeasily which companiesfit into the price orthe turnover bracketthat I'm looking for?Who fit in the bracket?Yeah, the kind ofif you're lookingat companies with a 2 to 5million turnover, for example.OK awesome.Last one, last but not leastone more person, and I actuallylike hearing yourquestions a lot like this,so this is very helpful to me.It may not be that helpfulto you, but it's good for meso far.Keep going one more.When speaking of minimumlevels of engagement,should I have or couldI have different levelsfor different types of work?so identity work versusinterior design work.All right.Fantastic, you guys.OK, now I'm going toask some veterans here,so I'm going to go like this, Iwant to go back and look at it.OK, you guys can justlook at it on screen.OK, you guys cansee my screen right?I want to ask the veterans whohave been part of this groupbecause we tend to getrepeat questions quite a bit.So I don't want tostart with those.Obviously, I want tostart with the ones thathaven't been asked orhaven't been answeredclearly enough for you.So we're going tostart on page two here.All my veterans.And then you guystell me which questionseems to bubble up to the top.Then we'll go from there.OK I should read this,I'm being rude right now,let me read thisin case somebodyis driving and listeningto this, so Ken's ask,do you charge forthe client calls?Second question iswhat is the reasonwhy you couldn'tgive a guaranteein the original price?But we're able to do sowhen you raise the price?And what's the differencein service and deliverablesdemise for lead generation?The ideal question I'msorry the deal clientgross is 1,000 x of yourminimum level engagement.Am I wasting my time withanyone that is smaller?Whereas how to surface thereal problem from a businessperspective, thatyou're solving basicallygoing from beingprescribed a solutioninto the diagnostic phaseas more of a consultant?Chelsea said between thethree priced options,how to differentiate them.And Abby wants to knowhow to find out easily,she added easilypart which companiesfit within the bracket that I'mlooking for in terms of price.Ok?Adam says.Or asked, should I?Should I?Or could I have differentminimum levels of engagementfor different work?OK, this is a fantastic.So let's figure it out here.Where am I, veterans?If you've been in the groupfor more than six months,I've consumed a bunchof the videos radical.Go ahead.Can we start withAdam's question?Sure could I have differentmeals for different work?Yes, we can.Do you?Can you just giveus some reasonsas to why you wantto start with adam?It's just the question.I mean, it's something thatI've been thinking aboutbecause I filter a lot ofclients based on, you know,what's theirrevenue or whatever.But then every projectthat comes into the househas different needs anddifferent time like it takes.It just takes different amountsof time to do every project.A brand project mightbe much more complexthan doing a Porschedesign project.Mm-hmm So I'm alreadytrying to developlike an internal MLPfor different projects,so I just want to knowwhat you think about it.Ok?minimal level engagements incase you've not seen or heardthis term before, it meansit's the minimal amountthat you're willing totake on a new client,and it doesn't mean that ithas to be billed in one go.It can be done overthe course of a year,meaning if they hiredyou to design a website.But it also includes maintenancelike a maintenance contractfor six months.The sum total of how muchbusiness they potentiallycan do with you for that yeardetermines whether or notthey're a good fit for you.And the very simple formula thatyou're supposed to go throughis to figure out how muchmoney you want to grow.So let's all just do thisexercise with me right now.OK, so this is a working call.It's a working session.It's not just talk, ok?I want everybody tothink 2018 is done.It's behind us.We're going toforecast for 2019.What do you want to grow asan independent contractor?A side hustle, asa business owner,as a freelancer, whereveryou are at in your lifedoesn't matter.So Michelle is fulltime, I believe,at a company and gettingher side hustle on,which is fantastic.So for Michelle, shejust wants to think,what do I want to do in 2019?After hours aside,extra bonus money?What do I want?I want you guys towrite that number down.OK a number that istoo low will meanthat you're not supermotivated to hit that numberbecause you're alreadydoing that numbertoday, a number that's toohigh is going to stress you outbecause you're goingto sit there and think,how the heck am Igoing to get there?But that's OK.So what I want you todo is find a numberthat's slightly out ofyour comfort zone, one thatmakes you throw up inyour stomach a little bitbut doesn't make you pass out.I want you to thinkabout that for a minute.OK And then I want youto write that down.We're going to commit to this.OK, so write that number down.So you can say in2019 I will bill.X dollars.Or pounds?Or pesos?Well, or euros rightdown, whatever it is,one should write that down.OK everybody's playing along.Now, you know, most of usare creative designers.So the math, the numbers hurtus like spiritually, mentally,physically, and they hurt us.But bear with me, I'llget you through this, ok?Luckily for you guys are luckilyfor me, I have a calculatorand I can helpout with the math,OK, because I'm not reallythat good with math, either,despite all the stereotypes.Let me clear this out.OK, now we're goingto take that numberand we're going todivide that number by 10.So divide that by 10 andwrite that number down.So if I want to gross,let's say I'm Michelleand I'm like, you know what,I'm going to do $100,000 in sidehustle next year.Divide it by 10.We're getting nasty feedback.Yeah, go go.OK, thank you.OK, if you have a questionand you want to talk to us,we'd like to talkto you, just puton your headphones or something,your mic and your speakertoo close together and we'regetting that nasty feedback.OK sorry, I justswitched the phone.No problem.Sorry no problem.OK Does somebody havea question or comment?OK you might ask why10, not 12 aren't there12 months in a year?Well, we're going toassume that you are notable to work the entire year.We know that there are slowperiods, there's vacation,there's travel, there'ssick time, there's holidays.So we just going to stripout two of the 12 months.That's why we comewith the number 10.OK so if your goal wasto do 100 thousand,let's say Michelle's goalwas to do 100,000 inside.Also, we would divide thatby 10 and get to 10,000.That number becomes ourminimum level engagement.That means all clientscoming in the doorregardless of the request.That's the whole pointof having an MLA.So the short answer is, no,you cannot should not havedifferent mlas for clients,regardless of the work,you're making an exceptionto your own rule.Not a great start.OK and why do we want to dothis because we would ratherservice fewer clientsand do a betterjob for them versustaking on more clientsand doing less of a good job?It will force you to not acceptwork that doesn't fit in here,and it's a gooddiscipline to practice.It'll also make youthink about what can Ido that's worth $10,000to somebody either in oneor two assignments a year.But the minimum levelengagement is not necessarilyfor the project, butit's for the client.OK, you can use thisactually in your conversationwith your client.So a client comes to you.Knock, knock, ring,ring, whatever.It's like, hey,I got a logo job.Fantastic you talk alittle bit and lookbefore we dive too deep,let minimal level engagementfor taking on newclients is 10,000.Is that the kind of money youcan spend on this initiative?Whoa whoa, whoa.Isn't that too much for a logoor something like that, chris?You say?Yeah, it probably is.To be honest, you could probablyget it done for a lot less.But that's what it's goingto cost for me to give youmy attention in time.Well, I don't think Ican spend that on a logo.But I hear hesitation, so Isay, but then maybe that'ssomething that you can spendover the course of the year.That's my email for clients,not for the project.Is there anything elsethat we can talk about?Well, yes, actually, I need todo a marketing campaign downthe road 3 months from now.Fantastic so maybewe can do this for 6and maybe that forfour or something.I don't care how we get there,we just need to get there.OK, fantastic.Now we're talking about a largerscope already out of the gate.Ok?that's how you get to your10 K. And it's a nice wayto say, look, this is not agood fit for me versus sayingthis is too low budget.I don't do this kind of work.You obviously don'tcare about quality.We don't need to do that.All right.So for Radhika andAdam, should youhave different meals fordifferent types of work?The answer's no.It is pretty liberating onceyou commit yourself to this, no.Now, excuse me, backwhen we were strictlya service company, I knew ourEmily was really, really high.Because if our goal was todo $5 million or $4 million,let's say $4 million.The math is a little bit easier.I would have to onboarda client for $400,000and not a lot of clientsare walking aroundwith a $400,000 checkburning in their pocket.But we did discover somethingwhen I practiced it,so I want you to understandthis part is that clients whocould spend North of 100,000.Generally speaking, theyhave a lot more moneywhere that came from.So when we're able to talkto these kinds of clients,the money did come.And we didn't just turn away.I'm going to giveyou a quick example.So you understand this.So it sounds like I'm beinga hypocrite, but I'm not.We did when we took on a projectwhen it clearly said in the RFPthe request for proposalthat the budget for this workwas $100,000 and myproducer looked at it.It says, Chris.Look at the deliverables.A new logo.A website, marketingmaterials, print brochure,all these kinds of things.That's a lot of work, Chris.And this is us comingoff commercial projectsthat were hundreds ofthousands of dollars.Is it?Should I make them go away?Is there no, no, no, no.I want to take the meeting.I always want to be able tobe the person that says no,and let's go in andlet's take the meeting.We took the meeting and I toldthem, look, here's your budget.Now We can do a lotthat's on this list,but we can't do everything.Are you open toexploring that there?Yes so what happenedwas that one 100,000project we were ableto land in a balloonreally quickly after wedid discovery to 250,000.And that one projectturned into three projects.So that turned into750,000 engagement,we still work withthem today to date,I think we build overa million with them,so we kind of have tobe smart about this, ok?A client can comein, lay down 100,000.Generally speaking, they'regoing to have more money.There's more moneywhere that came from,and I was looking at it from anannual basis and not a projectbasis.And just because theyself prescribed the budgetas $100,000 doesn'tmean it's fixed.If you learn how tospeak about business, ok?I'll take anyfollow up questions,and then we'll move onto the next question.Chris, so it's not thatyou can't sort of bendyour minimum level forindependent services,let's just say your idealminimum level of engagementfor brand identity wouldbe K. You can reach thatby accommodating an additionalservice to add valueto the client, butyou're still hitting KSo you can kindof bend it saying,OK, I know internally Iwouldn't do this less than sevenor five, but ideally it's 10.So how can I meet you halfway?If it comes to that?OK, I think Ianswered that role,but let's talkabout it some more.OK, let's have somedialogue around.Well, what I'm askingis it's your internally,you kind of stillbending the rule a bit.But your externally, in orderfor you to match your goals,your sticking your ground.Right so 6 is farfrom 10, right?Because we're barely halfway,so if I said, give me$1 I'll give you a60% return on that,you would not takethat deal, right?It's pretty far away.It's not like we're80% or 90% thereand where you can actuallymake a concession.So I think in this case, Ithink we start negotiatingagainst ourselves, I think.And even then internally,what I want you guys allto do is if you haveany shot of hittingyour number for next year, youhave to stick to your guns.Now there's two waysto do this, right?You can sit there and tryto negotiate really hardwith the client toget there, but Isuspect something else isgoing to happen if you fullycommit to this.If you say rightnow, I only charge$3,000 for x for the same work.I'm going to chargethree times as much,I'm going to charge$10,000 that meansthat I can't be talking to thesame kind of clients anymore.I can't be thesame person I was.So what do I need to do?How do I need to thinkabout myself and my work?What kind of levelsof confidencedo I need to gain to beable to walk into a roomand command thatamount of money?Because inherently you haven'tdone anything differentin terms of design?The value, believe itor not, is all the stuffthat you can't describe ordraw on a piece of paper.It's how you makethem feel, it'sabout your abilityto have conversationto build rapport, your level ofself-confidence, the languagethat you use.Those things, believeit or not, impactthe price of the logo a lot.Now if I were to show youthe logo that we designedfor hundreds andsome $1,000 you'regoing to laugh becauseyou're going to say,Chris, I could have donethat and I would notdisagree with you.And some of you who arereally, really good can say,I can actually domuch better than that.What is this balldude able to do?Like why is heable to sell this?Because it's obviouslynot the mark.It's not the thingthat you craft.So once we getover that mindset.That limiting belief.I think you can blowthe roof off what you'vebeen able to charge thus far.There should belittle connectionbetween what it coststo make somethingand how you priceit to the client.Isn't that the same ideologybehind the business boot campwhere you're gettingrid of the scrubsby charging what you do for it?Yeah, 100% We are going to lookat the client and price basedon the client, whatit means to them.So in order to get a$10,000 logo or websiteor whatever it is that youweren't able to get before,you have to find adifferent kind of client.Now here's thegeneral rule is peoplelike people who arelike them or who theywould like to be more like.So people who are billionairesand multimillionaireswho are tech startupsor biomedicalor what it wascalled biotech space.They want to be aroundpeople like that.So here you are onthe outside, lookingin is like looking throughthe glass window like,oh, I want inside that party.So you have to transform.You have to start tolearn about the industryor about their business,and that will help youso that they seeyou like one of themand not like anoutsider looking at.That's the generallyspeaking quote unquote,about you're the averageof the five peopleyou spend the most time with.Yeah, 100% OK so part of thisis building the confidenceand the confidence comesfrom knowledge and practice.And so we can gain thata year is a long timeto become a new person.OK you guys rememberwhen you're a teenagerand you were having growingpains like your body achedlike in a real physical way.That was a time ofgreat growth physically.What we need to do asadults is to continue downthat kind of growtharc, but mentally,spiritually, that's whatwe need to be able to do.OK can I ask a bitmore about the mli?Yeah, in regards tothat, you're speaking MLAin regards to a client,not necessarily a job.So if we're holding on to ourdozen clients are nice 12.And if my goal isto get 120 a year.And I say my mlas,my MLA is 10,000and I've got 12 clients,all with this kindof same agreement thatscoped me at what I'm lookingto make for the year, correct?If everything goesright, it's MLI.You had it right the first timeMLA minimum level engagement?Yes yeah, it's notminimum level per project.OK, the engagement canbe defined a little bitdifferently, but Iwould love for youto focus on the MLA asone job if possible,because that meansthat we're notkind of looking at tomorrow'spromise of more work.But that is one exception, andBlair talks about in his book.So if they can't hit your10,000 or 12,001 job,you start fishingaround and saying, well.How can we make this workbecause it's our policy,you can use theword, it's our policynot to take on clients for lessthan this on an annual basis.Is there somethingelse that you'regoing to need in acouple of weeks or monthswhere it's coming down theline and they'll say Yes or no,and then you can makethat determination.That's your only wiggle room.Is for them to say, like, yes, Ithink we have more work for youor actually there'sthree campaigns, if youdo a great job here, I, we canpretty confidently say that.You can do that, that we willbe able to provide more workopportunities to.Now this is a lot differentthan somebody saying, hey, canyou do this for super lowbudget because I thinkthere's more work for you.That's a leverage ornegotiation tacticthat people use to promiseyou work they don't have.That's totally differentthan you saying, well,we're like 30k away from my MLA.And is there somethingelse that you?That's a very differentkind of dialogue.OK it will sound the same, butit's actually very different.And believe it or not,we have used this tacticwith advertising agencies,and it has worked.So when they cometo us and like,you know, we havethis video at 60,000and we didn't even have a hardand fast Emily at that point.Just like we knew, wecouldn't do this job for 60k.That's what we're like.That budget is notgoing to work for this.Now if you do five ofthese things, we can do it.At 60k, a pop.So when they come back,like we don't have five,but we have four, and ifwe raise this to 880 k per,does that work for you?Yeah, fantastic.Let's do it.So then they startthinking campaign.Versus individual spot TV spot.OK OK.Adam and radhika,are we OK with this?Should we move on?Yep, I'm good.Yeah, Adam, Adam, good.Thumbs up.OK, fantastic.