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    ENTREPRENEURSHIP
    Podcast 13 min read

    Build a Business You Love w/ Marie Forleo

    with Marie Forleo

    Marie Forleo and Chris Do connect meaningful work with financial clarity and the discipline to build a business worth owning.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · May 6, 2026

    The respectable job was the wrong job

    A respectable career can be the wrong life. Marie Forleo, the author of Everything is Figureoutable and the entrepreneur behind MarieTV and B-School, learned that before she had a business to fall back on. Her perspective carries the weight of two reversals: leaving established career paths to build her own work, then discovering that achievement could become another kind of confinement.

    In conversation with Chris Do, Forleo offers something more demanding than encouragement to follow an interest. Her account asks whether the business being built can support the person building it, financially, creatively, and in the ordinary experience of a working day.

    That question began for her on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. She had wanted movement, opportunity, and the chance to earn well. A job without much sitting seemed unusually compatible with her energy.

    Money also carried a personal charge. Forleo recalls interpreting her parents' divorce through the damage that financial scarcity could do to a family. As a child, she resolved to earn enough that a lack of money would not take love away again.

    Wall Street appeared to answer that ambition. It did not answer the quieter question of whether she belonged there.

    Forleo describes a male-dominated environment where unwanted attention and the surrounding social culture made her uncomfortable. More persistently, she felt an internal resistance she could neither silence nor explain. The opportunity looked good from the outside; living inside it felt different.

    Eventually, she left the trading floor during an episode of breathlessness and dizziness, went to the steps of Trinity Church, and called her father. His response was not a business plan. It was permission to leave work that was making her miserable.

    Permission mattered because she had mistaken departure for failure.

    Her next moves were attempts to diagnose the mismatch. An advertising assistant role at Gourmet offered a different environment, including a desk near the test kitchen. When the dissatisfaction returned, she reasoned that the numbers and quotas were suppressing her creativity.

    An editorial move to Mademoiselle seemed like the correction. Fashion shows and designers supplied novelty, but not a lasting answer. The same resistance returned, leaving her to wonder why a hard worker kept wanting to quit.

    Discovering life coaching gave that restlessness a direction. She enrolled in training while keeping her magazine job. When an opportunity at Vogue arrived, she faced a clearer choice: a more prestigious version of the established path, or an uncertain business she wanted to attempt.

    She chose the business, then bartended and waited tables to support herself while building it.

    The distinction is essential. This was not a story of conviction making practical needs disappear. Forleo left one source of income and worked other jobs. Her decision combined a refusal to stay with a willingness to do the unglamorous work of leaving.

    The early lesson was not that every uncomfortable job deserves abandonment. It was that advancement within the wrong structure would not solve her underlying problem. A better title could improve the offer without improving the fit.

    A winning game needs its own definition

    Forleo eventually recognized that her difficulty was not an aversion to effort. She enjoyed working, creating, and collaborating. What she resisted was having someone else control her earning potential, creative scope, schedule, and direction.

    Do identifies the entrepreneurial tension beneath that history: someone can be a capable worker and still be poorly suited to conventional employment. The distinction between ability and fit also frames the choice presented in Staff, Freelance or Entrepreneur? The working arrangement matters as much as the work itself.

    But independence does not automatically establish direction. Without a deliberate definition of success, a founder can leave an employer's expectations only to adopt the expectations of peers, platforms, or the market.

    Forleo's alternative is to play a winning game. By that, she means defining success for the present stage of life rather than accepting a permanent, universal scorecard.

    Her suggested horizon is concrete: the next one to three years. That leaves room for ambition without requiring a person to predict every future responsibility, discovery, or desire. A business can be purposeful without becoming a lifelong oath to an unchanged identity.

    This is where Do challenges the appeal of having many interests. He sees creative websites crowded with professional labels, each claiming another capability. To him, that accumulation can obscure the absence of a clear, credible offer.

    The concern is not that curiosity is bad. It is that curiosity and commercial competence are different things.

    A founder's broad interests do not relieve a prospective client of needing to understand what that founder can actually deliver. The tension sits alongside the premise of You Don't Need a Personal Brand. You Need an Offer. Identity alone does not complete the business proposition.

    Forleo does not resolve the disagreement with a rigid rule about choosing one skill forever. She returns to seasons and responsibilities. Different stages call for different concentrations of attention, even when the person remains interested in many things.

    That is a more useful distinction than specialist versus generalist. The question becomes what deserves the majority of someone's time and energy now, not how many interests that person is allowed to possess.

    Purpose enters the conversation here, but not as a decorative mission statement. Forleo connects it to the people who benefit when a project succeeds. Looking beyond ego, money, and metrics can make the reason for continuing more durable when the work becomes difficult.

    Her prompts are modest enough to resist becoming a grand exercise in self-invention:

    • Identify the work worth exploring or learning at this stage of life.
    • Name the people who benefit when that work succeeds.
    • Define a winning outcome for the next one to three years.
    • Allow that definition to change as responsibilities and ambitions change.

    None of this eliminates the need to become good at the work. It clarifies what the work is for, which is a different problem and an equally consequential one.

    A winning game requires a finish line that belongs to the person playing it. Otherwise, even progress can feel like falling behind.

    Achievement can become another employer

    Forleo's second reversal is less glamorous than leaving Wall Street. After building a business around creating a life worth living, she began noticing that her own life no longer matched the promise.

    She was working hard. She was exercising and meditating. From the outside, the habits associated with personal development were present. Yet she could not permit herself to lie on the couch for fifteen minutes because resting did not seem productive.

    The person who had rejected externally imposed restrictions had developed an internal one.

    Forleo describes standards and expectations that kept rising while changes in her own needs received little attention. The business was not simply asking more of her. She was continually increasing the demand.

    This distinction complicates the usual account of entrepreneurial freedom. Leaving employment can remove a manager without removing the habit of constant self-surveillance. The founder remains capable of becoming the most unforgiving authority in the organization.

    Forleo's admission is particularly revealing because it comes from someone whose public work centers on building a satisfying business and life. Her dissatisfaction was not evidence that she had never believed the message. It showed how easily that message could become disconnected from daily behavior.

    Rest cannot depend on proving enough productivity. In her account, the inability to pause became evidence that the rules needed to change, not that her discipline needed strengthening.

    Her discussion of self-regard serves the same practical purpose. She describes a substantial difference between the periods when she treats herself well and those when she becomes relentlessly critical. Creativity and connection feel different under those two conditions.

    She does not describe permanent confidence or a completed transformation. The work remains ongoing, and she acknowledges that harsh self-judgment still returns.

    That restraint matters. A useful account of self-acceptance leaves room for inconsistency rather than turning acceptance into another standard to fail.

    Social media adds another source of pressure. Forleo values having built work before those platforms became central to public visibility. That experience gives her a reference point for creating without continually measuring the response.

    Her answer to unhealthy comparison is to give less authority to platforms and more attention to the work. It is not a technical content strategy. It is a decision about which signals deserve to govern a person's sense of worth.

    The boundary becomes especially concrete in a short rule she uses for commitments: “Only say yes to those things you're willing to do joyfully.”

    That line can sound like permission to avoid anything unpleasant. Forleo immediately adds the qualification that keeps it useful: some responsibilities still have to be met. In those cases, the task is to find a more joyful way to do what is required.

    There are therefore two decisions, not one. First, whether an optional commitment deserves acceptance. Second, how to approach an unavoidable obligation without treating resentment as the only available response.

    The distinction prevents joy from becoming an excuse for unreliability. It also prevents responsibility from becoming an excuse to accept every request.

    A business worth owning must leave room for the owner's life. Otherwise, independence has changed the name on the authority, not the terms of the relationship.

    Money needs attention, not moral confusion

    The conversation becomes more exacting when Do turns to sustainability. A business cannot merely express a founder's identity or absorb a founder's energy. It has to return enough value to support the person responsible for it.

    His standard is direct: “It has to provide for us more than we provide for it.”

    Forleo approaches that requirement through the emotional contradictions surrounding money. People can want more while feeling ashamed of wanting it. They can seek financial security while treating money itself as suspect.

    Those contradictions are personal for her. The childhood resolve to protect relationships from financial strain did not prevent later feelings of unworthiness, discomfort, or confusion around earning.

    Her criticism of scarcity centers on the belief that someone else's gain necessarily means less possibility for everyone else. She wants founders to examine the assumptions that make earning feel like taking, rather than accepting those assumptions as moral facts.

    Her broader claims about abundance are beliefs she brings to the conversation, not a substitute for an individual company's financial position. The operationally useful part of her argument is more specific: avoidance and shame make it harder to look carefully at money.

    She uses a deliberately provocative mantra, “I love money.” Its purpose, as she explains it, is to replace hostility with curiosity and care.

    In practical terms, that means wanting to understand a bank account, wanting to understand growth, and paying attention to how money moves. The emotional language leads back to behavior. Appreciation without attention would not accomplish what she describes.

    Financial clarity is a design constraint. Once the owner names the obligations and desired outcomes, the business can be built toward them rather than judged against a vague wish to earn more.

    Forleo also rejects the idea that everyone should want the same financial scale. Some people want to manage large amounts of money; others prefer less. Her point is to establish what fits the person, not to turn one level of ambition into a measure of character.

    That distinction connects the money discussion to the earlier definition of a winning game. A financial target should reflect actual responsibilities and desired possibilities, not merely the largest number available for comparison.

    Her questions begin with the existing situation:

    • Identify outstanding debt and current family obligations.
    • Clarify who depends on the business owner's income.
    • Set financial goals for the next three, five, and ten years.
    • Connect those goals to a business capable of supporting them sustainably.

    These are not interchangeable questions. An income target means something different when it supports only the owner than when it must support dependents, debt payments, or future employees.

    The danger is confusing a better relationship with money with the arrival of money itself. Forleo's practical advice avoids that shortcut when it turns toward expenses, profit, and the cost of building the desired company.

    A healthier mindset can make the numbers easier to face. It cannot take their place.

    The business still needs to earn enough, retain enough, and support the obligations attached to its ambitions.

    The résumé is not the relationship

    Forleo's vision of a satisfying business includes other people. She values collaboration, the contribution of skills she does not possess, and exposure to ideas she would not have generated alone.

    But a team is not automatically a source of freedom. It can become another source of friction when hiring begins with exhaustion rather than clarity.

    Do describes creative business owners who desperately want someone else to handle an uncomfortable function. They seize on a polished résumé or an impressive school and overlook evidence that the person does not fit the role.

    The underlying purchase is relief, not capability.

    Forleo's response begins before recruitment. B-School asks founders to articulate an ideal customer avatar, and she applies the same discipline to hiring. The desired working relationship needs definition before a candidate's availability starts influencing the standard.

    Her ideal team avatar focuses on values, strengths, and work ethic. Just as important, it separates essential requirements from qualities that would merely be pleasant to have.

    That separation makes refusal possible. Without it, an almost-right candidate can become the answer simply because the founder wants the search to end.

    She then adds a second safeguard: a paid date-to-marry period. Rather than treating a promising interview as conclusive, her company uses an initial working period in which both sides can assess the relationship.

    The pay is not incidental. This is actual work under evaluation, not a request for someone to demonstrate commitment through free labor.

    Forleo describes the difference between presenting well on paper and functioning well inside the work. Communication, production, and reliability become visible when people have to collaborate rather than describe how they collaborate.

    Her distributed company makes those demands particularly explicit. Effective communication across distance, energy in a virtual environment, and deadlines across time zones are not secondary preferences. They are conditions of the job.

    Her hiring criteria can be expressed without turning them into a personality test:

    • Shared values and work ethic: establish the qualities the relationship requires.
    • Effective virtual communication: observe how the candidate works with a distributed team.
    • Reliable delivery: assess whether work arrives when it is needed.
    • Mutual fit: let the candidate evaluate the company while the company evaluates the candidate.

    The trial period is not a universal legal shortcut. Its relevance here is managerial: expectations become testable before the relationship is treated as settled.

    Forleo describes a roughly thirty-day window as useful for recognizing a mismatch early. The deeper principle is not the calendar length. It is the willingness to let evidence outweigh the desire for a hire to work out.

    Team design also belongs inside the financial conversation, not after it. A founder who wants talented support must build a business capable of paying for that support. Hiring cannot repair an economic model that never budgeted for help.

    For a broader editorial companion to that problem, How To Grow A Small Creative Agency places growth itself at the center of the discussion. Forleo's contribution is the insistence that the people inside that growth must fit the intended life.

    Choose the cost before choosing the company

    The hardest part of Forleo's advice arrives where creative identity meets commercial responsibility. Some founders want to remain the visionary while assigning sales, marketing, and financial judgment to someone else.

    She understands the impulse. She does not accept it as sufficient preparation for ownership.

    A founder need not execute every marketing task or personally manage every sale. But understanding the mechanics is what makes competent delegation possible. Without that understanding, the owner cannot reliably distinguish strong work from confident presentation.

    Understand the work before delegating it. This is the dividing line between transferring execution and surrendering judgment.

    Forleo describes sales and marketing through human psychology, making them less alien to someone whose strengths lie in creative work. The point is not that either discipline is effortless. It is that disliking the business side does not remove its influence over the business.

    That responsibility sits naturally beside Moving from Makers to Entrepreneurs. The transition changes more than a job title. It changes which decisions can no longer be treated as somebody else's problem.

    Do then identifies the founder who needs help but cannot afford it. Low prices and insufficient income keep competent support out of reach, while the absence of support keeps the owner trapped in work.

    Forleo returns to the profit picture. Before choosing a team or deciding that help is impossible, the owner needs a clear account of the business's actual economics.

    Her practical sequence is straightforward:

    • Set revenue and profit goals for the next twelve, twenty-four, or thirty-six months.
    • Understand monthly or annual spending and the costs of delivering the work.
    • Examine whether current prices can support the intended company.
    • Decide whether that company should include a team or remain a solo operation.

    These choices carry different costs. A team requires more revenue to support other people, but it can provide collaboration, coverage, and the ability to step away. Solo work avoids some organizational obligations while leaving more responsibility concentrated in one person.

    Forleo refuses to describe either arrangement as a painless solution. Every model contains something difficult. The mature decision is to choose the difficulty that fits the desired business rather than demand a structure with no disadvantages.

    That is the final correction to the promise of building a business worth loving. Love does not mean uninterrupted enjoyment. It means the obligations, tradeoffs, and rewards belong inside a life the owner has consciously chosen.

    The next decision therefore has to become specific. An unaffordable hire points back to prices, expenses, and profit. A draining commitment points back to boundaries. A confusing offer points back to the work receiving priority now.

    No single mantra settles those decisions. Neither does a prestigious title, a crowded list of capabilities, or an impressive candidate.

    A business worthy of its owner must survive contact with the numbers and with an ordinary working day.

    The business should support the life, not consume it.

    TRANSCRIPT

    Scarcity is one of the most destructive mindsets, not only in business and not only as it relates to money, but as it relates to love, as it relates to relationships, as it relates to creativity. The notion that there is not enough and therefore, and I am not enough and I don't have enough, that is the source of so much of our collective, both individual and global misery. My guest today is Marie Forleo. She's a Jersey girl who left a respectable career in Wall Street to bartend, dance, and to write her way into becoming a global influencer, talking about how to be a multi -passionate entrepreneur. She's also the author of number one New York Times bestselling book, Everything is Figureoutable. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Chris. I've been so looking forward to this. Now, for context, everybody, Marie and I have bumped into each other a couple of times. The very last time was actually at the airport in Dubai. A lot has changed in the world. You were just chilling and we came by and just bothered you talking and here we are. I was having snacks. Now, the word of warning here, Marie is very direct. She may do a New York thing, I think, and maybe drop a few words here and there. Only if you're lucky. So if you have young kids around, perhaps just monitor this just as a warning for everyone. Okay. Now, we're going to talk about how you can build a business and a life that you love. Yes. Which is the mission that you're on with MarieTV, with B -School and everything that you're doing. And I also have to say, props to you. You're an OG YouTuber. Yes. If I can say that. Yes, absolutely. You've been around for a minute. A long, 25 years I've been doing this. Not on YouTube because I haven't been around that long, but I've been doing this kind of work for 25 years. And then, gosh, hopped on YouTube, maybe 2008 or so -ish. I want to know, like, what is it that started in your brain? I was like, I'm going to leave this very kind of tried and true path. Yes. To do something totally wacky. So essentially, when I graduated from school, I knew that I couldn't sit at a desk because I'm a person who has a lot of energy. And I only had like little clues about what I wanted to be when I grew up. But I was that kid at like six and seven when, you know, an adult asks you like, so what do you want to be? to do something totally wacky. So essentially, when I graduated from school, I knew that I couldn't sit at a desk because I'm a person who has a lot of energy. And I only had like little clues about what I wanted to be when I grew up. But I was that kid at like six and seven when, you know, an adult ask you like, so what do you want to be? And I always had 14 to 17 answers. And I would watch their brains just go offline. And, you know, the next year it would change in the next year it would change. So when I graduated from school, I was like, okay, I can't sit behind a desk. And I also knew that I wanted the opportunity to make a lot of money, not because I like shoes. I really don't care. I'm not that materialistic. But early on in my life, I learned when my parents got divorced that a lack of money could tear everyone apart. And so I made myself a promise at eight years old. I said, when I grew up somehow, some way, I will figure out a way to earn enough so that the lack of money never takes away love or breaks up a family again. And so many of my friends at school and grammar school, like parents got divorced the same thing. So I also had this idea that if I could generate enough that I could help other people with it too. So bartending in college, I got my first job on Wall Street on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. And I was super pumped about this because at that time, there were literally no seats on the floor. Like you could not sit. There was a flip down seat that occasionally you could do for like 30 seconds, but that was very frowned upon from a like social point of view. And I was pumped to have a job. I'm the first in my family to go to college. But I remember showing up on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, still living in Jersey, taking the train in. And I started hearing this little small voice inside that says, Marie, this isn't you. This isn't what you're supposed to be. This isn't what you're supposed to do. And I was like, shh, I'm here on Wall Street. So I kept trying to ignore the voice. And as time went on, I started to learn the culture there, which first of all, it was 99 .9 % men were taking this back to like 1997. So here we go. First morning, it was like a big sausage fest for those of you who knows what that means, which by the way, I'm Italian. I love sausage. It's great, but it was not a kind of integrated, balanced environment to say the least, if you know what I'm saying. Then the other part of the culture was at like 4 p .m. Bell would ring and it was time to go to strip clubs and do lines of cocaine. Which, no judgment, just wasn't. I was like, this is not my scene. Third thing, no matter how much I tried to be taken seriously, it was just like constantly getting hit on. And now I'm Italian. If you can see me, I have a lot of hair. It's very long hair. And to kind of protest, I cut off all my hair and basically had a buzz cut like a pixie cut because I thought that. pain, which no judgment just wasn't. I was like, this is not my scene. Third thing, no matter how much I tried to be taken seriously, it was just like constantly getting hit on. And now I'm an Italian. If you can see me, I have a lot of hair. It's very long hair. And to kind of protest, I cut off all my hair and basically had a buzz cut like a pixie cut because I thought that would handle that. Anywho, that voice kept getting louder until one day and I was on the floor. I started having what I now know is like a mini panic attack, but I didn't have the words for that. Then I just couldn't breathe. I felt pretty dizzy. And I went to my boss at the time. It's like, Hey, can I just run out and get a coffee? And he's like, yeah, yeah, sure. And I ran out and I didn't go get caffeine. I actually made a beeline to the nearest church, which was Trinity Church, downtown Manhattan. And I sat on the steps and I just bawled my eyes out because I felt like broken. I felt like such a loser. My parents had busted their buns to put me through college. I was a really hard worker, but I felt like this job was making me die a slow death. And then there was this voice inside that kept saying, this isn't what you're supposed to do. But I'm like, well, what else? And so I got a little message that says, call your dad. So I whipped out my flip phone because it was 1997 doing the ugly cry to my dad. And when I stopped and took a breath, he's like, Rhi, hold on. He's like, you've been working since you were nine years old. I'm not worried about you keeping a roof over your head. But if this job is making you this sick, you got to leave. Let me tell you the secret to life. Okay. You're going to be working for the next 40, 50 years plus. You have to find something you love. And if this isn't it, then you got to quit and go figure it out. And that, while he didn't tell me how to go figure out something I love, it was the permission slip that I needed to not bring shame upon my family for just walking away from healthcare and a steady paycheck when we do not have a plan B. So I went and just looked inside. I was like, okay, well, what are my clues to who am I? Like, what the hell am I supposed to do in this world? And I knew I loved small business. My dad was a small business owner, but I also knew I was really creative. I wanted to be an animator or a fashion designer or a fine artist. So I was like, had two different parts of me. I was like, okay, how do I meld these parts? And the thing that came into my mind was, oh, magazines, the world of publishing. There's the commerce side to publishing, but then there's the creative side to publishing. And I went and found a headhunting kind of place, temp agency. And I said, I'll take anything in any publishing company. They got me a job as an ad assistant at Gourmet Magazine, which was part of Condé Nast. Okay. So first of all, I'm winning because my desk was right near the test kitchen. We talked about this. I love snacks, right? So every time they're like, I went and found a headhunting kind of place, temp agency, and I said, I'll take anything in any publishing company. They got me a job as an ad assistant at Gourmet Magazine, which was part of Condé Nast. Okay, so first of all, I'm winning because my desk was right near the test kitchen. We talked about this. I love snacks, right? So every time they're like testing new recipes, I would get snacks. This time, my boss was a woman. The publisher of the magazine was a woman. It was a much more integrated environment. I'm like, this is it. This is amazing. And I'm going along and I'm going along. And then all of a sudden, that little voice comes up again. Hey, Marie, this isn't who you are. This isn't what you're supposed to do. This isn't who you're meant to be. And I'm like, this feels awful because I am a high achiever and I hold myself to very high standards. And I just kept feeling like inside I'm dying this slow death, even though I was so grateful to have a job and to have a paycheck. Does that make sense? So I took a step back after that, boys kept getting louder and louder. And I said, OK, let me analyze this a little bit more. Wall Street, all numbers, all dudes. Ad side of magazines, all numbers again, quotas, quotas, quotas. I was like, that's probably my creativity is being stifled. That's it. I need to be more creative. Well, let me go to the editorial side of a magazine. So I went to HR. I said, I'll take a pay cut. I don't care. Lateral move, whatever. Any editorial position, I'll take it. Of course, one came up at a magazine called Mademoiselle Fashion Magazine. And I'm like, all right, this is going to be it. I'm going to fashion shows. I'm working with designers. Come on. This is amazing. It's glamorous. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. And for the first few weeks, it was awesome. I was super, super pumped. The novelty was there. I was excited. And then the frigging voice came back again. Marie, this isn't who you are. This isn't what you're supposed to do. This is what you meant. At this point, I was feeling like I was broken. I was like, do I have some kind of brain deficiency? Like I'm such a hard worker and I want to make my way in the world, but I keep wanting to quit every job I have. All my friends are getting married, having kids, getting promotions and like starting quote unquote real life after college. And here I am piling up debt, feeling like a loser. And I didn't know what to do with myself. Cut to one day I'm on the internet, probably when I shouldn't have been. And I stumbled upon a new profession at the time. This is 1999, y 'all called coaching, specifically life coaching. Now, I read this article all about this new burgeoning profession. Cut to one day I'm on the internet probably when I shouldn't have been and I stumbled upon a new profession at the time. This is 1999 y 'all called coaching specifically life coaching. Now I read this article all about this new burgeoning profession and how it was about partnering with people and all this stuff. And by the way, I didn't tell you guys this, but I started off as a psych major in college before I switched to business. So I've always had this passion around human development. The moment I realized this whole new article and I'm reading this, it was simultaneously, it was like the clouds parted and little cherubs appeared above my desk. And it was like, oh, Marie, this is what you're supposed to be. And then my Jersey girl, mean girl voice in my head said, are you freaking kidding me? This is the stupidest, cheesiest idea ever. You're 23 years old. Who the hell's going to hire a 23 year old life coach? You haven't even lived life yet. You're in debt. You keep failing at every job. This is just one more stupid idea that you're going to fail at. So I had those two things happening at once. I made a decision to sign up for a three -year coach training program that was all done online. This is all teleconference again, because we're in 1999. And then I did my Mademoiselle job during the day. And fast forward about six months, I get a call from the HR department and they had a promotion for me and they wanted me to go to Vogue. Top fashion magazine in the world. More money, more prestige, more everything. A job that I could feel proud of going back to my friends. And I remember thinking about taking it. And I was like, okay, I've got my coaching studies over here that I was really loving. And then this Vogue opportunity. And I was like, this is my fork in the road. Do I go to Vogue or do I start this weird ass life coaching business that no one has ever heard of? I have no clue how to start a business. I am literally piles and piles of debt. And this sounds ridiculous. I'm going to do that one. So I said no to the Vogue job. I went back to bartending and waiting tables and doing whatever I needed to do because I lived in New York City and that's what you do. And I figured out how to start a coaching business during the day. And that was over 25 years ago. It sounds like you have the entrepreneurs cursed. You're kind of unemployable. I am. Yeah. It's terrible. I'm a really good worker and I love to work and I love to do things and create things. And I love to collaborate. But going to the same place every single day and having someone else be in charge of how much I earn, what I can create, where I can go, what I do, I am not built. yeah it's terrible I'm a really good worker and I love to work and I love to do things and create things and I love to collaborate but going to the same place every single day and having someone else be in charge of how much I earn what I can create where I can go what I do I am not built for that at all okay I'm watching some of your episodes your Q &A Tuesdays and things like that I know you like to do checklists so let's design the checklist live together let's do it what are the four five or three biggest things that we need to figure out in order for us to have a business and a life that we love one of the things that you need to figure out in order to create a business in life you love is to actually figure out what it is that you really really love to do or explore or learn or be engaged with be challenged by and it doesn't have to stay the same throughout your entire life and it probably won't I think we humans are built to evolve and to change and change is the only thing that we can depend on so being willing to identify what that is at this stage and season of your life and being at peace with it may not be the same forever I think that's number one I hear potentially conflicting things that I might even agree with you but let's talk about yeah absolutely you say you've got to figure out what what it is that you love to do I believe in an episode you said you got to keep your eye on your why I'm sure I did say it and I said it in the context of when you find something that you're super into you want to build you want to complete you want to explore keep your eye on why it matters so much to you beyond just numbers metrics or money because any project whether it's starting an entire business whether it's launching a new product whether it's learning a new skill it's not going to be easy but if your why isn't just about your ego or about making money and it's tied to things that are beyond you or outside of you that you genuinely care about in your soul and in your heart you are so much more likely to find a way to get up and keep going so once you find that thing keeping an eye on your why and keeping that close to your heart in that context can be really really beautiful is there a question that you ask people who are struggling to figure this thing out because I do agree with this 1000 % what they can do to identify their why is there a prompt that you give them a way to get up and keep going. So once you find that thing, keeping an eye on your why and keeping that close to your heart in that context can be really, really beautiful. Is there a question that you ask people who are struggling to figure this thing out? Because I do agree with this 1000%. What they can do to identify their why? Is there a prompt that you give them? A why is a little bit different. It can be like, who's going to benefit from you creating, achieving or bringing this thing into the world. And so if you can start to articulate who are all the different people who then win as you win, that can get your heart open to the ripples that may come from your creation. I heard this at a conference. Blair Enns was sharing a story about how they had asked this question to an audience of 100 entrepreneurs. What is your biggest why? And what is it that motivates you to show up every single day? And he said, without a fault, they practically said the exact same thing, different words, but they said the exact same thing, which is number one, I want to work on my personal development. I want to grow every single day to do things that challenge me. And while doing that, to serve other people. I am so friggin grateful, y 'all, that I'm old enough to have existed and to have built something prior to social media, because I have such a clear demarcation point in my own lived experience of what it was like to just create stuff without social. I will tell you this, that if anyone listening or watching right now is caught in that toxic cycle, one of the best fixes is actually and this is going to sound real cheesy. So get ready for it. Strap yourself in. You have to love yourself. Because if that comes from the inside out, you give so much less weight to those platforms and you give so much more attention to the work itself. Do you love yourself? I love myself so much. Not always. I will say it's in the 85 to 90 % of the time range. And then the 15 to 10 % of the time range when I can be really hard on myself and really torturous of myself and my own worst critic. And the difference in my own experience of life and my ability to be creative and my ability to be in touch with and in connection with others is so unbelievable. Like I can't believe it's the same person. to 10 % of the time range when I can be really hard on myself and really torturous of myself and my own worst critic. And the difference in my own experience of life and my ability to be creative and my ability to be in touch with and in connection with others is so unbelievable. Like, I can't believe it's the same person. When did you reach that 85 %? What happened? How did you know? And how did you learn to love yourself? It's an ongoing process. I feel like I've gotten better probably over the past five years than I've ever been in my life, except for when I was a child, like small, tiny child. So I think I love myself as a child. I loved myself like sometimes, but I punished myself a lot from late 20s through probably mid to early 40s and then had to really make some changes because I was like bad to me. Not unintentionally, but I developed some unhealthy habits. So you're saying in the last five years, it's like when you're like returning to peak you. Yes. So what happened then? What happened was I started noticing these habits that no matter how much I was working and like, I can work. You know what I mean? Like I'm gritty. But I noticed that I was never letting myself rest. Like even though I was doing all the self -help things like meditate and work out, I do have a lot of physical activity. So because I need to get it out somehow. And I have never like abused drugs or alcohol or any of that stuff. But I realized I was like, wow, my body's really tired. And I wouldn't let myself lay on the couch for 15 minutes because it wasn't productive. Wow. I started waking up in the morning and going like, wait a minute. I'm the one that talks about creating a business and life you love, but I'm starting to hate this shit. So some of the things that were always going really great started to not go really great. And I was having trouble understanding what was going on because I didn't realize anything had changed. And then I just realized that my standards and my desire to keep achieving and producing kept going up. But there was pieces of my soul that were shifting that I was giving no attention to. Don't do something unless it gives you joy. And some of us need to be explicit and explain to whoever our partners are. Let's set up some rules because it's just been expected. So it's an unwritten rule that I do everything. While your life is more important than mine, we just need to reclaim some of that. I would suggest that. Absolutely. I have a little mantra, actually, that because as a person. something unless it gives you joy. And some of us need to be explicit and explain to whoever our partners are. Let's set up some rules because it's just been expected. So it's an unwritten rule that I do everything. While your life is more important than mine, we just need to reclaim some of that. I would suggest that. Absolutely. I have a little mantra, actually, that because as a person with a very interesting brain, ADHD, I don't really care so much about labels. I just know it goes all over the place and I have difficulty focusing. Mantras are really helpful because they can help me rewire my own brain. So here's one of mine that you all are free to borrow. Use if you like. Only say yes to those things you're willing to do joyfully. So only say yes to that which you are willing to do joyfully. And that takes care of 99 % of the things. And then those things that you do just have to do because there are things in life that we have to show up for. Then it becomes a game of how can I do this joyfully? How can I make this joyful? It seems like when we prioritize ourselves, society will tell us that's selfish. That our own happiness, our own joy is being selfish. And I have to say this. If you've ever been around anybody, someone who's miserable, it's very hard to be around them and to be happy around them. So I would always tell my wife, your number one job in the world is just to be happy. Whatever it is that makes you happy will make me happy. But sometimes that's not enough. I'm just saying just please be happy. Dear God, please be just be happy. That's all we need because everyone in the house will be happier. Okay. You talked about being this multi -passionate, which is I think a term you coined, right? I can't believe you coined that, but amazing. Yes. Okay. This is where I have some problems because you didn't say find out what you the many things you love to do. You said find out what you love to do, which sounds like one thing, but okay. It's nuanced. It's nuanced. Yeah. I'm a little nervous for our people who are like, yeah, she said be a multi -passionate. When they hear that, what I feel like is a lot of people who are not good at anything saying she said be a multi -passionate. I'm a web designer. I'm a developer. I'm a logo designer. I'm a painter, potter. I can sew. It's like, no, you can't. Not in this lifetime, not at this age. And then they have no opportunities. So can you address that a little bit where people are literally, I review websites quite often. There's 17 slashes by their name and their title. It's like you're a serial killer because you're a slasher. This is all you do. Right, right, right, right. This is interesting. And here's where we need to be nuanced. Here's why things don't always fit into sound blights or quick little lists that can be shared on TikTok or Instagram more. People are literally, I review websites quite often. There's 17 slashes by their name and their title. It's like, you're a serial killer because you're a slasher. This is all you do. This is interesting. And here's where we need to be nuanced. Here's why things don't always fit into sound blights or quick little lists that can be shared on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or whatever. So one frame to consider. People are at different seasons and stages of their lives. And different seasons and stages of lives require different sets of focuses and different responsibilities. I believe that the faster you do the thing that you were meant to do on this earth, the more successful you become. I figured it out. You figured it out. If you were doing the thing that you were meant to do in this lifetime on this planet and you're not successful, we can help you. Because the rest is mechanical, I believe, right? Yeah. And I actually, I didn't know if we went here yet and you can feel free to put this in the bucket so it's really good and actionable. But the other thing that popped into my mental theater was about playing a winning game. Once you know the thing that, again, at this stage and season of your life, you're like, this is what I want to devote the vast majority of my time and my life energy and my attention to, whatever that thing is. And whether, again, multi -passionate, you have a single passion, we're all built different, whatever feels good to you. Play a winning game. So what does that mean? Play a winning game for yourself and have the courage to define what that is. And by the way, a winning game might look for you like the next one to three years. Be open to that game changing. As your life advances, as different things happen in the world, as you make new discoveries, as things shift with your family, your desires and ambitions will change. who you are right now is not who you are going to be in the next 10, 15 or 20 years. So enjoy this portion of the ride and then get ready for life to bring you something new. I want to talk about money a little bit. Is that okay? Of course. So we first said, you got to figure out what it is that you love to do and do that. And it's okay to be in different seasons in your life. You have to be able to play a winning game. Now I want to talk about this, about the poor and the infinite money mindset. In order for us to be able to build a business that we love, it has to be sustainable. It has to provide for us more than we provide for it. Yes, sir. Okay. Let's talk about those differences that you've seen because 80 ,000 people and I'm sure you see a lot of patterns. Yeah. And this is one of the biggest, most important things. First of all, I think that... Now I want to talk about this, about the poor and the infinite money mindset. In order for us to be able to build a business that we love, it has to be sustainable. It has to provide for us more than we provide for it. Yes, sir. Okay. Let's talk about those differences that you've seen because 80 ,000 people and I'm sure you see a lot of patterns. Yeah. And this is one of the biggest, most important things. First of all, I think that so many of us, and it's very understandable, are super twisted up about money. It's probably one of the most difficult topics in our culture. And it's been that way for a very, very long time from influences, from religious influences and all different kinds of things. But most of us, like secretly, we want more of it, but then we think, are we a bad person for wanting more of it? And if we have more of it, do other people have less? And I think so much of that is rooted in this absolutely toxic idea of scarcity. And scarcity is one of the most destructive mindsets, not only in business and not only as it relates to money, but as it relates to love, as it relates to relationships, as it relates to creativity. The notion that there is not enough and therefore, and I am not enough and I don't have enough, that is the source of so much of our collective, both individual and global misery. Here's the truth that we know about money. It is abundant. There is more money now than there has ever been in the entire world. We have the data on that. And the notion of a fixed pie fallacy that there is just some set amount of money. And if I get some because Chris buys some of my products and services that all of a sudden Chris has less and the world has less. It is just the most destructive BS in the world. So that's the thing that we have to banish from our consciousness. I don't know how we'll do that, but I hope we can do that. Beyond that, I think it's important that each of us recognize that just like different animals and creatures on the planet, one needs more than the other. Similarly, like we were just talking about how I believe every soul comes onto this planet needing to learn certain lessons and have different experiences and who are we to judge? I believe the same thing is true when it comes to money. That people come into this earth in this incarnation and some people need to learn how to master really large amounts of it and other people, for whatever reason, are happy, satisfied and want smaller amounts of it. That needs to be okay. But you have to get clear on who you are and what you want and what's going to work for you. So I think that being clear on your own financial goals, understanding what your financial picture it's always exciting for you to know that being able to get comfortable and make it easier for you to think about yourself. large amounts of it. And other people, for whatever reason, are happy, satisfied and want smaller amounts of it. That needs to be okay. But you have to get clear on who you are and what you want and what's going to work for you. So I think that being clear on your own financial goals, understanding what your financial picture looks like. Do you have debt? Don't you have debt? Do you care? What's your family obligations? Who are you responsible for? What are your financial goals in the next three, five, ten years? If you can get clear on those bits, then all of a sudden we can start to reverse engineer a business that can aim towards those goals and hit them sustainably. You said that some of us have this belief that we, I mean, we secretly desire to have money, but the admission of that makes it feel really bad because money is root of all evil. We've heard that expression, right? Which is so not true. Right. So how do we get some money from that state to like, it's unlimited? Yes. How do we get there? Well, I think different people start to absorb information in different ways. Like there might be some rational fact -based people who would respond really well to perhaps a presentation, a book, a set of arguments around legitimate facts, like how much wealth there was in the world, let's say 300 years ago and watching it increase over time. There's other people that it's really energetic and it was instilled in them by their family and by teachers and money is the root of all evil and it doesn't grow on trees and all that stuff. So again, I told you guys that I'm a huge fan of mantras. This was a mantra that helped take me from being really effed up about money, having like tons of debt, wanting lots of it, feeling like I didn't deserve it, unworthy, all this stuff. And it's a single three word phrase that literally can change your entire life. I love money. And I do. When you were talking about loving yourself, it's like anything in this world that we pour the energy of love into transforms. It's like love is the answer to every problem, including money. And so I want you to just consider this for a moment. What would your financial life look like if you poured only the energy of love into it? If you loved your bank account so much that you wanted to understand it, if you loved money so much that you wanted to understand how it could grow, what's going to make it thrive, you wanted to really know what happens, what do I need to do? How do I need to interact with this thing in order to have it grow and be abundant? Like, does anyone honestly think hating it, thinking it's evil, thinking it's not enough? If you treated any how it could grow, what's going to make it thrive. You wanted to really know what happens. What do I need to do? How do I need to interact with this thing in order to have it grow and be abundant? Like, does anyone honestly think hating it, thinking it's evil, thinking it's not enough? If you treated any person in your life with that energy, do you think you'd have a positive or negative relationship? What do you think your outcome would be? Crap, right? Now flip it around. So a couple of things that you can do. Anytime that I have written a check, and this was especially important for me, especially when I didn't have a lot of money, is there's always more where that came from. And I would bless it. I would love it. I would say, thank you. Oh my God, isn't this amazing? There are so many little things that you can do to change your relationship with money. But I think starting with that mantra, especially if it makes you uncomfortable, is going to be one of the most powerful things you can do. College football is back. So Hilton calling me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake -up call at 555 in 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for this day. Quick question. Can anyone make $100 ,000 a year? If they really, really want to, I do believe that's possible. Okay. Can anybody make a million dollars? If they really want to, yes. I believe this. Everybody in this room can make $100 ,000 a year. Everybody listening to this, no matter where you're in the world, you can do $100 ,000 a year. And I think it's easy. I don't even put the condition if you really want to. If you're willing to follow instructions, that's my only condition. Give us your third most poignant thing about how we can build a business and a life that we love. Well, I would say for almost any business, and this may or may not be changing with AI, I think that you have to have people around you and people that you work with that your values align. For me, I think that building something that is profitable and impactful. And for me, joyful is a necessary criteria. I'm very clear that as a soul, part of my reason on this planet is to experience joy. That is one of the core reasons that I came into this body because I think I had previous incarnations where that was not the case. So this one is like, no girl, make it fun. Having people around you that you really enjoy their company, very clear that as a soul, part of my reason on this planet is to experience joy. That is one of the core reasons that I came into this body because I think I had previous incarnations where that was not the case. So this one is like, no girl, make it fun. Having people around you that you really enjoy their company, the values are aligned and that you can create something big and fantastic. And big is a subjective term, something beyond yourself together. I think that is a key component to creating a business and life you love because I haven't seen in my own world, I'm not able to do a ton on my own and I don't want to. I love collaborating with people and I love being able to work with their gifts and their skill sets and have them teach me things and have them expose me to new ideas and new possibilities that I couldn't have possibly thought of on my own. So I think that that's the other component. Wonderful. Every successful entrepreneur that I've talked to says something similar, that you need a great team and that you have to have aligned values and the culture of the company is really important. I'm going to ask this for everyone out there that's a solopreneur. Yes. Who's like, I love that idea so much, but I can't seem to find good people. Yes. Either A, I don't know where they are or B, I keep getting the C class, not the A class. Yes. How do we fix that? Okay. A few different ways to go about it. So one of the things that we talk about in B -School, as it relates to your business, we do something called your ideal customer avatar. And you really start to dream into and articulate exactly who your ideal customer is. And I'm highlighting and underscoring and throwing confetti at the word ideal, not mediocre customer who really kind of wants you, but they can't afford what you offer or anything like that. I'm talking about ideal. I think it's important to do the same thing for your team. So your ideal team avatar or ideal employee avatar, whatever nomenclature that you want, and being really, clear on who that person is. What are the values that they have? What are the kind of strengths that they have? What's their work ethic? So I think the more clear you can be about what is a must and a need to have versus a nice to have in terms of that person, the easier it is to begin to find them. And also to say no, if you have somebody who's like, they look like they could maybe be it, but it's like, nah, it's not going to work out. And then the other thing is this date to marry. So this is probably one of the best things that I've done in our company. You would never, most of us, unless you're on a reality TV show, would never go on a first date with someone and be like, we're going to get married right away. Right? Where you're just like jumping into bed and jumping into a long -term commitment. So with us, whenever we're going with a new hire, especially if it's a Yeah, we're in hiring in business here, you know, first, we're looking at the service of the for whom, for our leaders. Let's see. And then the other thing is this date to marry. So this is probably one of the best things that I've done in our company. You would never, most of us, unless you're on a reality TV show, would never go on a first date with someone that'd be like, we're going to get married right away, right? Where you're just like jumping into bed and jumping into a long -term commitment. So with us, whenever we're going with a new hire, especially if it's a full -time hire, we always have a date to marry period where they get to work with us, we get to work with them, they are getting paid, but we're all on a dating period. So that people can kind of present their best selves on paper. We all know because we've all done it. I've certainly done it. But then when you actually get into the cockpit and you need to start pulling all the levers and you need to start actually producing work and communicating, that's where things can often fall apart. For me, we've had a completely distributed company ever since the inception. So since 2001, so having the ability to communicate effectively in a virtual environment, being able to show up energetically, get work done, meet deadlines across time zones. If you can't do that, it's a non -starter. And so then within 30 days, it's a lot easier to let each other go if it's not working out rather than going down all of the legalities of firing someone. I have friends who have the means to hire people. Let's deal with them first. Yes. They are coming from a place of desperation, I think. I really need somebody to do this. And I don't want to learn about sales. I want to learn how to write email marketing or do these things. And I just hate all that stuff. So I'm just going to grab the first person who appears in front of me and put them in that role. And they have heavy bias. And I always warn my friends. Most of my friends are creative people, artistic types. Yes. And they like to hire people who have a really good resume. Yes. Oh, you went to an Ivy League school? I'm like, that don't mean nothing. You got to talk to the person. And then they are super, in my judging language, desperate that they'll just hire the wrong person, even though eight out of the 10 things completely bad fit. It's a, they want a warm body. to solve a problem. And this is really true with most creatives. And I've seen this as part of the one of the reasons that I started B -School in the first place. Many creatives are like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm the visionary. I'm the creative. I hate all the business stuff. I hate all the marketing. I hate all the sales. Someone else should do that for me. And so I understand that rationale. I understand that line of thinking. But here has always been my pushback. When it comes to having a profitable business, you do need to, I believe, this is my belief, as a business owner, you need to understand the mechanics of sales and marketing. And really all it is, is human psychology. And if you get that, even if you're not the one executing on it day in and day out, which you may not need to be, nor should you be, you know how to hire someone who's good. having a profitable business, you do need to, I believe, this is my belief, as a business owner, you need to understand the mechanics of sales and marketing. And really all it is, is human psychology. And if you get that, even if you're not the one executing on it day in and day out, which you may not need to be, nor should you be, you know how to hire someone who's good. You know how to judge the work. Second problem is the person who wants help desperately needs it, but they have a poor relationship with money. So they're not charging enough. They're not asking for enough. And then therefore they don't have the means to hire somebody good. So they keep hiring crappy people or nobody at all. How do we solve that problem? Well, I think that goes back to our financial conversation. I like to help people create a really clear profit picture for themselves and understand what are their revenue and profit goals for the next 12, 24, or 36 months. What's their monthly or yearly spend rate? What are the costs of goods? Like really having a very clear understanding of the numbers. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It's as much as like how much is coming in and how much is going out. And are you charging enough to be able to build the kind of company that you want? And some people don't want to build a team and that's okay. But there is this phrase and get ready, close your ears. If you can't hear this one. I remember talking to my friend, Elizabeth Gilbert years ago, and this was actually an idea that was popularized by Mark Manson. And it was the notion of you are going to eat a shit sandwich, no matter what, at some point in your business or life. So one of the beautiful things about having a team, right, is that you have more people around you. You need to earn a lot more money to support that team. But you can do things like take vacations. You can do things like have the input of other talented people and have the support and the culture and all those beautiful things. And then other people are like, I don't want a team. I just want to be a freelancer or I just want to be a solopreneur, which is fine. But you're going to have a different challenge, which is if you don't show up, you don't make money. There's no one who's got your back. There's always going to be pluses and minuses, no matter which way that you want to grow your business. So you have to be mature and understand what kind of shit sandwich do you want to eat. And it comes back to the financial decision. So if you're like, well, I only need to earn $100 ,000 a year because my expenses are only 40 grand and taxes and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, great. Well, what happens if your financial dreams get bigger or you're never going to be able to hire help if you're only earning that much? So you have to just put your big human pants on and have a really mature conversation with yourself about your goals, what that looks like, what that enables you to do and what it doesn't enable you to do. Marie, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. I just appreciate you as a human being and the energy that you bring and the wisdom too. Thank you so much. I was still looking forward to this. Thanks to everyone online. put your big human pants on and have a really mature conversation with yourself about your goals, what that looks like, what that enables you to do and what it doesn't enable you to do. Marie, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. I just appreciate you as a human being and the energy that you bring and the wisdom too. Thank you so much. I was still looking forward to this. Thanks to everyone online and everyone here. You guys are beautiful and I can't wait to do it again sometime.
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    “It has to provide for us more than we provide for it.”

    — Chris Do

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