When To Have VBP Conversation

Welcome to call number 96.We're going to haveour 100 official call.It's more than that, but sinceI've been counting, it's 96and I don't know what we'regoing to do 400th call,but we got to do something cool.This is an open agenda.Call again.I think you guys likethese kinds of calls.And before I jump intothis wonderful documentthat Moe put together andfacilitated with the group,I encourage you tocontinue to form subgroupsto have conversationsto help each other outwith specificproblems and align it.That way, the groupis getting bigger,so it's naturalthat little groupsform and feel free to do this.So the best way I know how to dothis is to write a short post,tell people what it is thatyou're intending to do.And tell them how to participateand just get togetherself-organize.So here we go.I I'm just going to start itoff with the questions thatwere highlighted that weresent to me in this document.From William Weigel racial.Are you here, william?Yep, I'm here, Weigel.You got it on my first try.All right, all right.I should have just stuckwith my first guest.OK, so William asked,when should youhave a value based priceconversation with clientsto determine the price?And what does allthat price include?So when do you do itbefore the whole project,during strategy, after strategy?OK, let's have a conversationabout it, William.Did you get a satisfactoryanswer from the group?No, I got good ideas, Igot good ideas, but nota super clear answer.Everybody did great,but right, rightthat we wanted to ask you.OK, so the question is onlyhelpful if it's helpful to youor the answer is only helpfulif it's helpful to you.So let's see if I can do alittle bit better job on this.Tell me a little bit aboutthe nature of your business.I do brand strategy and design.Basically, just offeringcore and lookingto expand into doing designsprints and things like that,a strategy and thenfocusing on identity design,print collateral and tryingto lean into consulting.Excellent, longstanding clients.OK, and how long haveyou been in business?About a year.OK and before that, wereyou staff somewhere?I've been on and offstaff, creative director,graphic design fornewspapers, things like that.Perfect and is yourbackground in graphic design?Yep, Yep.I was in a metal band too,and we did my lead singerand I did all of ourdesign work for that album.Art sure designs.OK and you said thatyou are currentlywriting for you have experienceand confidence in running car.Oh Yeah.Yeah OK.Fantastic are yougetting good results?Oh Yeah.Yeah excellent.OK, so you want to talkabout value-based pricing?OK, so.I'm going to just take itfrom the book of Blair,and he says this where he saysfor a low budget projects,you bring up thebudget really earlyand for big budgetprojects, you bring itup later because youneed to define the scopeand the scope is a partof establishing a value.So currently, rightnow, tell me howyou have thingsstructured to seeif I can't help you make a smalltweak so that you can increaseyour value to your client.Currently, we would justtalk about generallywhat they're looking for and seehow I can solve those problems.I asked them ifthey have a budget.And if they don't,I drop an anchorto try and understandto get context for them.And they either respond with,oh, that's way too far out,or we can work with that.Yeah and then.We determine a pricebased upon what they need.So I just feel like I need torefine the process as to how,how and where the valueconversation comes in.Because right now,I just don't know.I think that might giveyou enough context.Or do you need more?No, I'm going to ask you afew more questions, right?So sure, sure.When you do, the scoping,is this in person?Is this over thephone and in personif it can be over the phoneor so southeastern minnesota?A super small town, so videocalls are important to me.OK, so video as well, ok?And then when you askthem about your budget,they usuallyprobably hem and hawand they just don't say, right.That's typically howpeople handle that.So then you take your aim.So what's your anchor?It depends on whatthey're talking about,but with the kind of clienteleI'm working on right now,it usually is around the5,000 to 10,000 range, ok?But with another projectthat I was working on,it was a really big projectfor a publishing companyand I dropped a 75,000 anchor.Yeah, and they freaked outand hired a graphic designerinstead of hiring.Like to come on staff.So right, right.That's what they were saying.It's like we can get youto do this one projector we can hire a graphicdesigner for a whole yearand have him do whatever her,do whatever we need them to do.Oh, it was a two yearproject that theywere trying to hire me on for.So I was like, Iwas a big project.Yeah, it was intense.I see.I see.So they may have madethe wrong decision then.Probably, probably OK.If you look at the last 10jobs that you've done or 10.Scope, whatever projects thatyou've done, nut job projects,what would the averageprice be if you took the 10and we're going to chopoff the low in the high?And just what is the averageprice project for you?That'd be between.2,5070,000 So let'sjust say 5,000.OK sure, sure.OK so the last time projects andhow many of those projects canyou do a year?I could probably take on.10 to 15, dependingon how big they are.OK, so that means atthis current rate,your maximum earningpossibility 5 and 5.2575 k.Yeah OK, so that meansthat other 75,000 jobthat you put out anestimate for would carry youfor a whole year then andyou could just do that, notdo any other project, right?Yep OK, so now ifwe're going to tryto come up with a solution foryou to build a little bit more,what would your goalbe for the next year?The 100K.OK that's a veryreasonable goal.K so that's a 25k increase, right?Yep, and what do you think needsto be done in order for youto be able to buildan additional 25 k?I need to be ableto generate more.Sustainable leads withbigger, bigger budgets,and I realized that somethingthat I need to improve onis my positioningand narrowing thatfocus because I've beenthe designer for everyone,which I believe is me being thedesigner for no one and has.So I'm crafting mypositioning and tryingto focus on that right now.OK, so you believe it'syour positioning because youneed to attract clients witha bigger, healthier budget,right?And help me.Yeah, and help me to understandwho I'm actually looking for.OK, that's good.So you probably need to builda more complete user persona.For that, your ideal client.Yeah OK, so youprobably want to team upwith somebody within thegroup because it's veryhard to see this for yourself.And it's hard to commit.So having somebodyelse run this with youto build your user personawill help you out a lot, right?Mm-hmm So if allgoes well, they'reprobably going to help youidentify who this customer is,where they hang out withtheir beliefs and values arethe demo and the psychographics,how to speak to themand how to probablybuild and a conversionfunnel for you tobuild awareness.So probably look somethinglike that, right?And then you couldstart targeting themand repositioning your offeringsand how you communicate,to be more attractive to them.So the goal is to get to 25k right, an additional 25 k.So that could be done if youcould do 10 clients a year.That means you just.Wow, I see it now.You actually have todouble your average job.Mm-hmm So if youraverage job is 5 k,if you can do 10 jobs a year atK each that will get you there,you're looking fora client that'swilling to spendK per engagement,and that can take no longerthan one month to complete.Mm-hmm That soundssuper reasonable to me.Yeah OK.So if somebody in the group candevise a solution for you, thatcan help you to double youraverage project size to 10k,what would you spendto make that happen?What's reasonable to getto double your product sizeand to do less work?I would say probablysomething between.10 I mean, I'd sayprobably around K. Yeah,I think that's reasonable.Spend 10 to doubleyour projects.Mm-hmm OK is that somethingthat you'd reasonably spend?Yeah OK.Fantastic, so what I'll do isI'll write up a little planthat summarizes what we justtalked about in terms ofand now I'm going tobullet point it right.We need to build a morecomplete user personaaround your ideal client type.Somebody who's willing tospend 10k, most likely notin Southeast Minnesota,probably a little bit broaderand positioned properlyto have probably a starescape and a conversion funnel.A kind of a contentstrategy planto help you attractsome of these people.Mm-hmm OK.And then you guys would thenimplement those suggestionsand ideas, and for that,we'll charge you 10,000.That's somethingyou can live with.Yeah, I mean, to behonest right now, like Iwould want to spend that.And know how it works out.But I'm in a placein my business rightnow that literally can'tdrop K on somethinglike that, totally atthis moment's notice.But I'm acknowledgingthe investmentis worth it is in that sense.So so maybe what we can dois to do some kind of phaseand engagement where Ican show you how it works,I can break it down for you.So we will start withthe use of persona.Maybe maybe we can start with3k and then just break it out.You know, I'm just talkingoff the top of my headhere so that it'smore affordable to youso that you can get someclarity and insight ASAP.Or maybe it's something wejust table for right nowuntil you have theresources to do this.Mm-hmm Is that ok?Yeah, sounds great.OK, so what I understandis you see the value unityou'd like to do it, butjust not this point in timebecause you just don'thave the resources.Correct fantastic.OK all right.That's how you do thevalue based conversation.Now, let's talk about it.It wasn't my intentto do it this way.And that was just goingto tell you the framework,and then we startedtalking and thenI started imagining that youwere my client or prospect.And I want to get in todiagnose the problem with youand to make you feel goodabout the potential solution.I also got you to tellme all your budgetsand your annual income andall that kind of stuff,and it just flowed, right?Yep so if you have this kindof conversation in this way,you'll get all kindsof good informationfrom your client to help you.So what we have to do is wehave to have some kind of metricto understand a baselinefor what you're doing todayand the difference betweenwhere you are todayand where you would liketo go is where the valueconversation is happening.So hopefully, I've alsopainted a picture in your mindthat it's fairly reasonablewhat you're asking for,but you are askingto double your incomeand to make or to do less work,which is ideally what everybodywants, right?More money while workingless and a little bitof reassurance.And if you had told me somecrazy number from where you'reat, I would have to tell you.That's super ambitious.I'm not saying you can'tdo it, William, but.What makes you think we cando this and let's figure outa game plan because Iwant to be there for you,but I don't want to sell yousome pipe dream either, right?Yeah now most of theanswers come from you,and all I did wasrecontextualize it and organizeit so that it made sense for me.OK, so let's talk a littlebit more about this, so,William, at this point intime, given the amount of moneythat he's makingbetween 50 to 75kunless he bags a reallylarge client to spendK is a lot of money for him.Relatively speaking,if you think about it,if he were a $100 millioncompany to spend 20 percent,let's say let's just say you gotthe 50k mark because the mathis the easier for me right tospend 20% of his annual revenueto launch a newinitiative to get clients.He was willing to contemplate.And if I had just told himup front, hey, William,I got this idea about doingpositioning and soundscapes,and I'm going to chargeyou $10,000 to do thisor you're good to go.You would say no.Because it's too much money.So we need tounderstand the value.Before we talk about the priceand there's a difference.When you talk aboutthe value of what'sachieved in thedesired future state.Before we talk about theprice, once he understandshe's going to gofrom 5 to 10 and he'simagining that in hismind, I assume onlydoing one project a month.That sounds pretty good.So he's going to hit the topend of his price anchoring.OK, so let's have a littlebit more dialogue about this,William, and ask mesome questions and thenlet's open up to the restof the group to talk about.Sure that was super helpful.And I think one thingthat I'm taking awayis just being seekingto listen moreand to be more understandingof where they're atto help them get to wherethey're going instead of.I think the analogy youand many other peopleuse as a hammer anda nail and seekingto apply things in that way isnot super helpful because I canjust drop out aprice and they don'thave any context as towhere that comes from.Right so I mean, I recentlyjust had a conversationwith a client thatI've had, and shewants to do exactlywhat you just said.She wants to have makemore money working less.And I was like, OK,let's talk about that.And we I literally walkedthrough exactly howyou did it with Mo on acall a couple of weeks ago.And the most I buildout to that clientwas somewhere around 5 to 6,000.Excuse me.And the value conversationuncovered $15,000 for herthat she'd be willing tospend to work more or workless and get more clients.So I said I walked through allof her goals and everythingthat you did, and she, likeyou said, was levitating.She was super pumped.And I was shockedand she was shocked.But I said theprice and she likewas like, Oh yeah,that makes sense.And so the answer or thequestion coming out of thatis because I had that beforeI did any strategy work.I'm trying tounderstand like, is itjust me using theresources of the budgetto solve that problem orbecause I feel like I may have?Decided on thatnumber too soon, or isthat meant to justbe a guiding light?And then we get intostrategy and figure outhow we're going to solve theproblems to decide how that.You know what, the actual priceof the project is going to be?I'm just trying to understandHuerta Moore to go from there.Ok?before I answer thatquestion, because Ifeel like that's a slightlydifferent conversationthan the one we'rehaving right now.I just want tounderstand from the groupbefore we go there, if there'sany questions about how I justhad this conversation withWilliam to talk about priceand then we'll talk aboutimplementation and actualhow you roll it out.OK OK.So if you have a question aboutwhat I just did with William,let me know right now thisis bring yourself online.You don't need to raiseyour hand or anything.Mean, go ahead.So, yeah, this conversationis founded on certain trustthat William is placing onthe start of the conversation,so you lead you intoit because there'san established connection there.But sometimes clients havea certain objective whenthey come to court like this.How would you tackle that?I don't I know where you'regoing with this, because thisis always your point of view.So this is fairly consistent.I don't know how you'retalking to your clientsand what kind ofclients you're finding,but most of the clients thatdecide to get on a phone callwith me, whether I initiateor are they initiate,have an open mind to whatit is because their mostvaluable asset is their timeand they don't give thataway easily.I'm not sure what vibe andenergy or tone or attitudethat you're bringing to it,that people are giving yousuch a negative reaction.And instantly, if Williamand I are talking like Chris,I don't know if this is right,then you're probably right.Maybe this isn't right for you.Why don't you just go backto doing what you're doing?Oh, it didn't work before.I think William didn'tstart with the intentionthat this was goingto be a conversation.I know.So this is ourmost conversationsstart, right, isn't it?Think about it.Hold on.Give me, give me a hold on.Just give me one secondand just point this out.OK when you're at a partyor you're in an event,you're talking to the personnext to you like, you know,I've been having these problems.And I'm just going to leaninto the conversation.It was super organic becauseI'm going to tell you,I had no premeditation as tohow I was going to explain thisto William at all.I just needed to knowmore about him first.And I think that's one ofthe things he highlightedin terms of how to listenand how to ask questions.Right Yeah.So I just leaned intothe conversation.What are you trying to do?Oh my goodness.And the way I demonstrate myexpertise and my knowledgeis the way that Iask the questions.And if you replay backthis conversation,hopefully I've done a goodjob where there was hardlya wasted question.It was all very directed.I wasn't asking abouthis kids or any.It was just all super relevant.Did you study design OK now?Oh, OK, this is what you do.I get it.And we're going toflow right into it.And the opportunitypresented itself.It could have gone100 different ways.OK, now, jimi, go ahead.I agree with everythingyou say in this.I'm just don't have the button.Do not add the button.OK, we agree witheverything I say.I agree with your point,I'm just saying that.So anyway, just meanmost conversations,so for example, I've done I'mwaiting to have a pricing calltomorrow with the clientand talk about the project,then there is acertain expectationthat will didn't have inthis conversation justadds that there's going to likea certain expectation is goingto be present in myclient court tomorrow.We're making sense.I know.Yes and I swear to you,every call we have,this is the exactsame point of viewthat you bring upevery single time.So either one of us is notlistening to the other person.I'm understandingI'm understandingthat demonstratingexpertise is the wayto do value based products,and I'm completely OK,I'm completely following.This is just I thinkthat as a demonstration,it's starting conditions are abit skewed compared to what'sthe real market conversation?Can I say something, chris?Let's jump in, Diane.So do we go from last?Or maybe it was.I can't remember when youwere selling him the pin,do you remember?Right?I can see you.So not OK, so I got you.So I think it's aboutcoming in without havingto make the sale.I think you will makethe sale without.So you've got to come in justsaying, hey, I want to help.So William, how did it make youfeel when you help that woman?And I wrote that down,I was like, how didit make you feel to help her?Like, you weren't evendoing anything yet?But how did it makeyou feel because youwere like she was levitating?How did it make you feel?Oh, I was excited to see that.Just having a conversationcan really help somebody outwithout me bringing anypreconceived notionsto the conversation or like anumber in my head or anythinglike that.I was just there tolisten and my guide here.The reason I'm chuckling isthis your delivery of that linewas fantastic.I was really excited.So you got to smilea little bit, buddy.Sorry, some energy andenthusiasm because peoplefeed off that right?It's for.Yeah, OK.I just was excited, though.Yeah now see, this personthat disappeared right nowis how you have to be.Because I like people whoare happy and optimisticand thinking about thefuture and are happierto help people seethat's we all needto just practice that everybodyjust smile a little bit moreand it'll changethe way you think.It's amazing.OK good job.But going back todemi, I think it'sabout going in withouthaving so it feels desperate.When and lord, I'vebeen there, you know,it feels desperate whenyou have to make the sale,but it is more important.It's a relationship Ithink you're buildingand you're OK withChris saying, no,he didn't want thepin last time, right?You were really trying likethat has stayed with me.You were like, forget this,I've got the techniques.I'm just going tonot sell him the pin.So if you win in, I thinkit's a mindset for you.I don't think that you'renot listening to Chris.I think you've got it.I think it's a mindset ofI need to go in and justtry to help themor listen to themand not go out with a number.And it does.I don't know.I would just encourageyou to not go inwith the mindset ofhaving to make the sale.My point, my point,and this is whereI can relate with William'soriginal question isat some point, there isa schedule conversationabout this.So tomorrow, regardless, ifI'm trying or I'm not trying,I'm going to receive a callabout pricing a website job.I cannot avoid this.This is not somethingthat I expectthat it will happen organicallyor someone will cometo me with a differentapproach and an approach that'snot expecting anything.The phone is going toring and someone will havethe question in their minds.I would like a pricefrom you, please.Right?so at which point youtell them a price?My main, my main,the main reasonI'm into intersectinginto this isbecause I think this iswhat William's askingand if he's not, thisis what I'm asking.So the questionis, do you speak?Do you speak about priceafter strategy or before?Oh, before.OK OK.All right.OK he just put a pin in it.I just love thatyou're like, I thinkthis is what William is asking.If it's not, I don't care,because this is my question.I'm trying to keep usfocused on one thing.So we can chase it down.Ok?first of all, some of you guyshave recognized Dan's voice.Maybe in our face, but we havea powerhouse in this group.And Diane, I'm justalways appreciativewhen you're able toparticipate in the call.She has her own podcastwith her own following,and she's amazing.So you guys needto check that out.It's I think it'sdesigned recharge, right?Design rechargechair Dianne Gibbs,you need to look her up andfollow her on social media.She's amazing.OK, I love her perspectiveand her energy.It's very different than mine.And I think we complementeach other really well.OK, let's get back toWilliam C back to William.OK, so there's aquestion about whendo you have the valuebased conversation?I think I'veanswered that, whichis I want to organicallylead into thatand figure out theproblem that's worthsolving as soon as Iunderstand the problemand there is some kindof benchmark for success.It could be convergent rates.It could be email sign up.It could be revenue.Emily, can you hit mute?Please edit this part out.Where's emily?There you are.Mute OK.They're OK.So you need tounderstand the value,because otherwise you'rejust throwing a numberinto the darkness, hopingthat whatever price is goingto work for them andyou're leaving it upto them to figureout what soundsreasonable or unreasonable.And we need some context.We're contextuallearners, right?We're talking aboutthis yesterday said.So if somebody standsthere and I say, oh, Aaronis really tall, is he?He's 6 foot 1.That's tall to me.I'm 5' foot 8.With next to Shaquille O'Neal,he's not very tall at all.So its context, so whenyou throw out a number10,000 1,100 1,000.Any of those numberscould sound high or low,depending on what it is thatwe're measuring it against.So what we need todo is to figure outhow do we evaluatethis price, whatwe need to talk about, what itis that we're trying to solve.So in my mind, I'm alwaysthinking to myself, what'sthe problem worth solving?And I don't care thatmuch about the problemyou bring to me inthe sense that if it'sa small problem like youdon't need me to do this,just do this yourself.Go to Fiverr.It's a small problem.Well, then, Chris, what'sthe big problem, I said,I don't know, do you havea big problem to solveand then they tell you.OK, and then you talkabout the price now.So is going to walkaway and think,god, I wish somebody couldsolve my problem for Kand I'm ready toscrape money togetherbecause I'd like towork a little bit lessand make twice as much money.That would be fantastic.So he's going to startthinking about thatnow once we enter into theengagement, which is reallywhere his next question is,are we stuck to that priceor is that it?No, it's just the beginningof the conversation,and we try toremain really fluid.So at this point.William, at least, isconceptually on the hookwith me for K. Let's justsay he had that money.He just saved up hismoney like, let's do this.So he's going topay me half up frontand we're going tostart to do discoveryand we're going to figureout the problem, ok?And within a certain reasonablekind of amount of work,I can figure out the problem.I know I can.I'll work until I cansolve that problem.But doing this, William couldcome back and say, you know,Chris, this is fantastic.Actually, I wantyou to do the work.I want you to build a site.I want you to help me withthe social media campaign.Do this, this and that.I said it was fantastic.We can do that.That's outside of the scope.What we're talking about.He goes, oh, OK, OK.Then I put a newnumber next to that.So sometimes in theprocess of uncoveringwhat it is that he needs,we find more things now.I don't want to beunethical about this.I do want to solve theoriginal problem, whichI will solve that problemeven if it means me spendingmore time than Ianticipated, because that'swhat I agreed to do.This is very different thanbidding a project basedon deliverables versusdelivering projectsbased on results.So he says, I need help andunderstanding who this customeris, how to reach out to them.Where do they live?And so I need towrite a plan for him.Or whatever it is thathe decides he needs.Once I'm done withthat, I feel then I'vecompleted my obligation.I fulfilled myobligation with him.And that's OK.OK, so now.Typically, the waywe do our projectsand the way we bid iswe don't necessarilydo the value basedconversation like this,OK, if we're still doingprojects, what I would dois I would just go inwith a pretty high,excuse me, a pretty highdollar amount for discovery.And then I give ballparkranges for the thingsthat they think they need.But I tell them with aheavy asterisk caveatthat this could be dramaticallysmaller or bigger, dependingon what it is that we find.It's like you've askedme to do wallpaperinside your house,which I'm happy to do.But once I get inthere and I realizeyour foundation is crookedmolding in the walls,you have all kindsof problems, then youcan determine if weneed to fix it or not,or you want me toslap something on top.That's entirely up to you.So we do discovery.With a price range forsome of the deliverablesthat they're talking about.I know very well thatthat's probably notgoing to be the planthat we actually execute,but for them to get theirhead wrapped around whatit is we're about to do.I do provide that forthem, so I put ranges.Your website couldbe 35,000 to $250,000and put giganticranges in there.I also want to take theclients temperaturesto how big is this problemthat we're trying to solve.So if I add upall those numbers,even though some ofthem are theoretical?Are they throwingup in their mouth?Are they running forthe door or they'resaying, yeah, let's do this andlet's see what we come up with?Then, you know, at leastyou're in the ballparkand you're playing in acertain realm financially.And that's going to be a loteasier for you to figure outhow to price the project later.Kate William, does that helpyou answer your question?Um, yeah, I think it.It's just a matterof me applyingwhat you're telling me.No, no, I saw this little.So explain that.What does that mean?Well, like I said,I think it mightbe related to Demi's question.Oh, so you read your mind or heyeah, or he's inside my mind?Yeah, for sure.I have another call scheduledwith a lead next week.It's actually anin-person meetingto have a discussion aboutthe price of the projectand what it would looklike to work together.OK, so we already had likea face to face meeting.There's a lot of World viewalignment and rapport built.So I think that Imean, and I dropped outlike an initial numberof what the projects evenstart at working with me.And he was like, oh, OK,let's when can we talk?So he was so he was hyped.So do you feel like having thatgoals conversation or valueconversation at thatmeeting is reasonable?And would you justdo it in the waythat we just did it with me?Is that what you would suggest?Yeah, it depends onyour comfort level.I'm going to be really honestwith you here for $10,000.I don't even know it's worth itto go through all this stuff,you know, and I'm going to tellyou some things free of chargeon how you can make more moneyright now without even havingto understand any of this stuff.OK, because you could justliterally walk into any meetingand say, look,Jimmy, Bobby Mary,here's the deal Iwant to work with you.I think we have a lot in common.I think I do a lotof good for you.But if you can't spendmore than $10,000to start in terms ofwhat we're talking about,I'm just not going tobe a good fit for you.I'm not saying youcan't do it for less.I just can't do itfor you for less.You don't even need toget into the value basedpricing thing, ok?Because the hardestthing to pull offis a value basedpricing conversation.Let's not go there as ourfirst step into this stuff.So you've been in businessfor a little over a year.You could just flat bidthis whole thing right now,just saying thisis my market price.If it's not somethingyou want to do.No problem, I'mgoing to move on.OK And then you might getresistance, you might get.Then you start using some ofthe negotiation strategiesI share with you guys sothat you can have thatand you don't even needto do value based pricing.And I just want you to thinkabout that now as someonewho does core andyou feel confidentand you've gottenreally good results.What I want you to do isjust do one little shiftand it could changeyour business, ok?I want you to charge$2,500 to do core.Don't call it core,just like, you know.The way that I work withclients, the resultsthat I'm able to get isI have to do discovery.And it looks like this, andthis is how much it costs.Now that is for us to have astrategic plan moving forward.The rest of this, wecan figure out the priceand it's going to beanywhere between 5 to 10.And then they say Yes or no.And then you kind of walkthem through that thing,then I said, OK, so I seeyou have some resistance.And maybe you've been solda bill of goods beforeand not receive delivery on it.So what I want to do isdemonstrate some of thatto you.Let me ask you a few questions.Who's your ideal customer?What are the pain points?Why don't we have moreof those customers,why did they choosesomebody else versus us?That's what it's going tobe like to work with me.I mean, after they answerall those questions, OK,so you can charge $2,500 here'swhat's going to happen for you.So this is you doinga face engagement?You're establishingthat I charge to think,and that's where you wantto go as a consultant.Get that win under yourbelt now, I say $2,500.It could be 1,000.It doesn't really matter.It could be 5,000.But you know that somebody iswilling to commit some dollaramount of money.To for strategic thinking,you have the right partner.And during your discovery phase.They're going to feel great.They're going to dothe levitating thing.They're going to feel heard.They're going to have insightinto what the problem reallyis.And then you can then figureout a solution with them,so we went into it thinking,you need a new list.This and that, but itturns out you really needthis instead and that instead.What kind of moneyshould we spend on that,and you just do it with them?With no agenda,it's like, well, welearned that if werevamped our landing page,we can quadruple our sales,and that would mean 600,000in New business.So let's work on that, andlet's put some real effortagainst that, right?Let's not put a smalleffort against a big result.Let's not mix thosetwo things up.And then you'll see thebudgets and the conversationbecomes reallysmooth at this point.So it could be that formany of you in this groupand on this call, thebest thing for you to dois to learn how to dostrategy and chargea small amount of money for it.So that becomes thething that mushrooms outin terms of surfacing or.Bringing it out thetrue value of whatit is that you're going to do.And you do that.Yes your furrowedeyebrows concerned me.Is this just a no,I'm in a bright roomand I am verysensitive to light.Oh Yeah.So I'm trying tofocus on the screen.Sorry?no, no, no.And that's and that's what Ihad told this client that I'mmeeting with next weekthat that's when I mean,a project starts at 5,000.I'm planning on charginghim 5,000 to do core.Beautiful Oh my goodness.Yeah and so and that'swhen he was like, well,let's talk about whatthe rest would look like.So right?So I was planning to walkthrough that value conversationthat you had donewith Mo and havinghad just done it withanother client recentlyand having it gone so well.I think I feel I feel confident.I thought youtaught it very well,walked through it withMo, it was excellent.And so I feel confident togo through that with himand say this is helping us geta big overview picture of whereyou want to go and come upwith some solutions on howto get there.But it's going tostart with coreand it's going tostart at 5,000 and thenwe're going to get a betterunderstanding after doing coreof how we're going to achievethese goals that we surfacedin the value conversation.So you gave me a lot ofclarity, but I don't know.That's just my mindset.Perfect and I want all of youwho do strategy and a purchasecore not to refer to as core.That's just a brand name.Oh, yeah, right?And they're like, yougot to explain it again.Just say it's discovery.Yeah, I just say discovery.Perfect good, good for you.I'm using in-houselingo with you.Yes, perfect.It's our shorthand.I just want to makesure that clarificationbecause some people are like,hey, they won't do quorum.Like, why are youcalling it core?Yeah, well, nobodyknows what that means.OK it's a marketingproblem here.Yeah all right.OK, fantastic.I spent a little bitmore time doing that,but that was a deep dive.