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    Podcast 14 min read

    Email marketing like a pro

    with Tarzan Kay

    Chris Do and Tarzan Kay examine email marketing built on consistency, clear offers, and honest promises.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · November 24, 2025

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    The inbox is not the real obstacle

    A business can send more emails and still avoid its hardest selling problem: believing it has something worth saying. Tarzan Kay, an email marketing expert, former copywriter for hire, and course creator, built the business she describes around that uncomfortable act of showing up. Her perspective matters because she has sold both her own education and other people's programs, then begun questioning the machinery that made those promotions work.

    The easy version of her advice is to send more email. The harder version is to become a person, and build a business, capable of sustaining the relationship that follows.

    In conversation with Chris Do, Kay describes the hesitation behind an empty publishing calendar. People worry about occupying someone else's inbox. They question whether they have enough authority to teach, enough experience to lead, or enough subscribers to justify the effort.

    These are not all writing problems. A better subject line cannot settle every doubt about the right to be visible.

    Kay began with roughly 35 people on her email list. Some were relatives. Others were former clients she had asked for permission to add. The audience was small enough to make the work feel inconsequential, but also small enough to make practice possible.

    That distinction changes the meaning of an early list. It is not simply an inadequate version of a future audience. It is a setting in which the writer can learn to publish without treating every sentence as a public referendum on competence.

    Consistency builds trust before brilliance becomes repeatable. Kay's argument is not that quality is irrelevant. It is that a relationship cannot develop around work that remains trapped in drafts.

    She describes the trust created by promising to appear every Friday and still appearing six months later. The promise is modest. Keeping it supplies evidence that the sender can be relied upon.

    Her own output is uneven. Some emails are excellent, others ordinary. That admission matters because the professional standard she advocates is not an endless sequence of exceptional performances. It is a dependable practice that leaves room for exceptional work.

    Kay also refuses to reduce the problem to calendar discipline. Public visibility, she says, exposes insecurities that a business owner has to address beyond the immediate task. Greater reach brings more scrutiny, not automatic immunity from it.

    The practical and personal demands run together. The calendar creates an appointment with the work; confidence makes that appointment easier to keep. Neither eliminates the possibility of criticism.

    The question of readiness therefore has to become smaller. Not whether the writer has finally earned permanent authority, but whether the next email contains something useful and honest enough to send.

    A small audience is still an audience. Waiting for a larger one before learning to serve it reverses the work.

    A name that made hiding harder

    Kay's comfort with visibility was not a fixed personality trait. Her account is full of experiments, exits, and identities that stopped fitting. The confident specialist emerged after several attempts to find work that made sense.

    She studied jazz piano, arriving at university after standing out in her small town. There, she encountered musicians whose dedication exceeded her own. They were willing to practice with an intensity she did not want to match.

    The discovery was not simply that other people were talented. It was that a career required a commitment she did not share. Recognizing that difference allowed her to leave without pretending that admiration for an art form was the same as wanting its working life.

    Law school followed. Kay liked reading, puzzles, and desk work. She also wanted money and respect, and imagined that a degree would provide an entry into a more distinguished life.

    She chose to study in French in Quebec, placing herself in an environment where she already expected to feel different. Her command of the language made the work harder. Differences in values made the fit more difficult still.

    After three years, she left. Traveling afterward, she discovered copywriting and its possibility of working remotely. She practiced it loosely for a couple of years before having a child prompted a more deliberate commitment to building a business.

    This history complicates the familiar instruction to follow a dream. Kay did not begin with a finished description of her ideal work. She learned by finding out which forms of work she did not want.

    Her upbringing gave those choices additional weight. Kay describes a tightly controlled religious household, with clothing, music, and movies subject to scrutiny. Seeking an education was itself a departure from the path she felt had been laid out.

    That tension between inherited expectations and chosen identity also sits behind The Futur's Living in the Dogma of your Parents. In Kay's account, professional decisions cannot be separated neatly from the effort to decide whose expectations would govern her life.

    Changing her name made the decision visible. Previously Amy Knapp, she adopted Tarzan after concluding that the old name no longer felt like hers. Her mother had already changed her own name, making the option seem possible.

    Kay says the new name required a different presence. Amy could remain unobtrusive. Tarzan attracted attention before she had explained anything.

    The confidence came partly through inhabiting that choice, then building a business and supporting a family. Identity was not merely something expressed through marketing. It was something practiced through actions that made retreat less convenient.

    That does not make reinvention a branding prescription. The useful distinction is between performing confidence and accepting the visibility required by work already worth doing.

    The best entry still has to be seen

    An email copywriting competition gave Kay an early demonstration of a principle creative professionals often resist: excellent work does not control all the conditions under which it is judged.

    The contest ran over three days and relied on votes. Kay recognized the organizers as people she wanted to reach. Winning offered more than a prize; it offered a visible reason for others to take her writing seriously.

    But she did not simply write an entry and wait for quality to announce itself. She watched how the competition worked.

    Voting closed at a set time. Earlier submissions had longer to gather support. Entries that accumulated votes early rose toward the top, where more participants would see them. An excellent email buried deep in the list faced a different contest from an excellent email near the beginning.

    Creative quality and distribution solve different problems. One earns attention once the work is encountered. The other helps determine whether that encounter happens.

    Kay adjusted accordingly. She wrote early, sought votes early, and paid attention to the practical obstacle facing supporters: they had to create an account before voting. Asking for support therefore required more preparation than posting a casual request.

    On the final day, she shared her approach with the other contestants. She believes that generosity also generated goodwill. Some participants were there for the experience, not a determined campaign to win, and had another reason to support her.

    The lesson is not that a popularity contest proves copywriting superiority. Kay explicitly separates the quality of her emails from her understanding of the voting system. Her explanation is more credible because she does not confuse those achievements.

    Do recognizes the same mistake in design. Creative professionals can become so invested in craft that they overlook what a client is trying to accomplish. Then revisions feel like an assault on the work rather than information about the objective.

    As Do puts it, “They forgot that there's a business objective.”

    The same distinction applies when people arrive at Kay's program hoping to write like her. Engaging prose is part of the offer, but the business of email extends beyond prose:

    • Tagging subscribers so the system can distinguish between people.
    • Organizing subscribers into groups rather than treating everyone identically.
    • Working on deliverability so the message has a better chance of reaching its audience.
    • Connecting the writing to a strategy for relationships and sales.

    The transcript does not supply a technical tutorial for those tasks. It supplies a necessary correction to the belief that attractive writing alone constitutes email marketing.

    Kay's competition story also establishes a boundary for the rest of her argument. Understanding a system can improve results. It does not establish that every available tactic deserves to be used.

    Knowing how the game works is the beginning of professional judgment, not a substitute for it.

    A million-dollar business is not a salary

    Kay's willingness to discuss money makes the business concrete. It also demands precision about what the numbers represent. Revenue is not personal income, and a projection is not a completed result.

    Although the supplied publication information is dated 2025, the conversation itself explicitly refers to 2020. Kay says her business is approaching the end of its fiscal year and expects to reach approximately $1.2 million in revenue, its first seven-figure year.

    Those are her reported figures at that point in the conversation, not a statement about her current business.

    She estimates that approximately 95 percent of revenue comes from selling courses. Her signature email marketing program accounts for about a third of gross revenue. Affiliate promotions, selling other people's courses for a commission, account for roughly 40 percent.

    The remainder is not fully reconciled during the discussion. Kay mentions occasional VIP days and lower-cost workshops, including education about selling services at a day rate and charging in US dollars as a Canadian. The conversation offers a broad business picture, not an audited breakdown.

    At the time, she prices her signature program at $1,500 US, with a six-month payment option costing about 10 percent more overall. The affiliate programs she describes sell for between $2,000 and $3,000, with commissions typically around half the sale price in her experience.

    Affiliate work had served a practical purpose during her transition from services. She could learn course promotion without simultaneously creating and delivering a program. After a promotion ended, she could return to client work.

    That sequence reduced the number of unfamiliar responsibilities she had to master at once. It also produced a dependency she later wanted to change.

    Kay noticed that she devoted more effort, money, and conviction to promoting other people's offers than her own. Do recognizes the discomfort: endorsing someone else's product can feel objective even when a commission is involved, while selling something personally created can feel embarrassingly self-promotional.

    Belief in an offer needs evidence behind it. Kay's confidence in her own program increased as testimonials accumulated, resources improved, and she could see more clearly how the work helped students.

    Her beta version carried uncertainty. Later versions carried experience. Stronger selling followed a stronger basis for the claim, not simply a louder performance of certainty.

    The business transition belongs beside the broader question posed by Moving from Makers to Entrepreneurs: making the product and building the operation around it are different kinds of work. Kay's revenue comes from both her expertise and the structure through which that expertise reaches buyers.

    The impressive number is therefore less useful as aspiration than as a set of tradeoffs. Which products generate revenue? Whose assets receive the effort? What must still be delivered after the purchase?

    A business model becomes legible when the headline number stops doing all the talking.

    The formula works, until it becomes doctrine

    Do's objection to course launches is not that they never work. It is that successful launches can appear to follow such a rigid script that the script begins to stand in for judgment.

    Kay recognizes the pattern. She describes a course-creation circle in which people promote one another, learn similar methods, and reproduce similar launches. In her account, much of the approach traces back to Jeff Walker's Product Launch Formula.

    She describes the mechanics plainly. Instead of remaining available throughout the year, a program opens enrollment once or twice annually. The enrollment window lasts roughly seven to nine days, with changing incentives intended to give people a reason to purchase.

    The daily reasons can include a new bonus, an expiring bonus, or a different payment arrangement. Kay says she does not recommend discount codes. The larger structure is built around concentrating attention and decisions within a limited period.

    She has used the approach successfully. She has also tried executing it alone and found herself exhausted, scattered, and disappointed by the outcome.

    The sales mechanism and the operating burden belong in the same evaluation. A launch is not efficient simply because it produces orders if the work required to produce those orders exceeds what the business can sustain.

    Kay describes simpler variations she has tried:

    • Pre-selling a program before building the full offer.
    • Selling a workshop rather than staging a more elaborate launch.
    • Removing the full collection of bonuses.

    She does not pretend the stripped-down versions always outperform the complete system. Her experience is that doing everything often produces the strongest result. Her uncertainty is whether that result justifies assuming everything is always necessary.

    An investing course unsettled the assumption. Kay heard its creator on a podcast and felt directly addressed by the message. The speaker's account of who had historically been encouraged to participate in investing connected with her.

    The marketing execution, by Kay's standards, was imperfect. A webinar replay contained expired bonuses. Landing pages lacked elements she would have added. The buying path did not resemble the polished launches she knew how to produce.

    She kept returning anyway, then bought the more expensive version.

    A clear offer can survive an imperfect funnel. That is not proof that funnels do not matter. It is evidence that clarity about the buyer and the offer can do work that more elaborate promotional devices are often credited with doing alone.

    The distinction echoes the proposition in You Don't Need a Personal Brand. You Need an Offer. A recognizable presence is not the same thing as a compelling reason to buy.

    For Kay, the experience opened a useful crack in professional certainty. She had spotted numerous opportunities to optimize the sale. The sale still happened.

    A formula is useful when it explains an option. It becomes limiting when it prevents recognition of another one.

    A publishing system that survives Monday

    The practical answer is not to abandon structure. Kay's own work became more consistent when she built smaller, clearer structures around the tasks that mattered.

    Her experience with Instagram is instructive because she did not initially feel capable there. She knew email produced business. Social media felt unfamiliar, and occasional personal posts did not give her a coherent understanding of the platform.

    Later, she hired help, studied how it worked, and looked for evidence that it contributed to course promotions. The investment was possible because the business was already profitable. She is explicit that not every listener has the same resources.

    Her eventual system separated writing from production. Each Monday, an Asana task prompted her to write five Instagram posts. Someone else selected images, made graphics, and handled the remaining work.

    The division protected the part she could do effectively without forcing her to enjoy every part of publishing. It also replaced an open-ended obligation to be active online with a defined weekly assignment.

    Separate the work before delegating the work. Kay had previously performed tasks she disliked, which helped her understand them well enough to hand them off later. Delegation followed practical knowledge and an expectation that the return would justify the cost.

    This was not a claim that an entrepreneur should immediately hire a team. It was an account of moving from doing everything toward making deliberate decisions about where personal effort belonged.

    Her email routine follows the same principle. A recurring task becomes more manageable when the writer decides when it happens, how long it takes, and where the draft begins.

    • Give writing a recurring appointment. Kay suggests reserving a specific weekly block rather than relying on motivation.
    • Put a limit on the draft. Her example is a 30-minute timer, followed by sending even when the result is only adequate.
    • Draft in a Google Doc before uploading the email. She found that separation easier than writing directly inside the sending platform.
    • Use a small list as practice. Early work does not have to perform like a mature publication to be worth sending.

    The details are ordinary by design. There is no advantage in a publishing process that demands an extraordinary mood every week. The calendar has to accommodate the work as it actually happens.

    Enjoyment matters, too. Kay found Instagram Stories fun and made an early Reel in a short gap before a meeting. Once a format felt creative rather than oppressive, she could imagine sustaining it.

    That search for a workable routine belongs alongside How to Do More in a Week than Most Do in a Month. The shared issue is not simply output. It is whether the way work is organized supports repetition.

    At the time of the conversation, Kay works four days a week and plans to move to three. Every new channel therefore has to compete with existing commitments.

    Consistency is not a personality test. It is an operating decision with consequences for the rest of the business.

    The promise has to survive the purchase

    The deepest tension in Kay's position is that she knows how to make promotional machinery work and does not want that knowledge to excuse misleading people.

    Do raises concerns about course creators selling recycled instruction, including people teaching others how to sell education without sufficient experience behind the teaching. He also questions pressure that pushes buyers to act before they are ready.

    Those are criticisms of behavior, not proof that every course business is illegitimate. Kay's response is to examine the gap between having learned something and having earned the authority to sell expertise in it.

    She recalls seeing newly established business owners presenting themselves as coaches to people in much the same position. Completing a program had supplied material to repeat. It had not necessarily supplied a record of applying that material successfully.

    The distinction matters because a course can package information convincingly without establishing the seller's competence. Attractive copy does not resolve that gap. It can conceal it.

    Kay also turns the criticism inward. She describes discovering emails in her own program that belonged to a friend. She contacted the writer, acknowledged taking the material, and says she worked to make it right.

    She interprets that incident through a broader concern about entitlement and appropriation. Whatever the wider interpretation, the business obligation is concrete: another person's work does not become the seller's property because it has been absorbed into a teaching process.

    Authenticity, then, cannot stop at sounding candid. It has to include checking what belongs in the product, what supports the claim, and what the buyer is being led to expect.

    The promise must describe the work, not erase it. Kay's simplest test comes at the beginning of the recording, before the longer discussion of systems and revenue. She asks whether the marketing is true.

    Even an advertisement, she says, should not imply that buying a program installs an effortless source of money. Building a digital course business is complicated. People fail. Time, effort, and unsuccessful attempts belong inside an honest account of the opportunity.

    The resulting standard is demanding precisely because it can be applied to familiar tactics:

    • Does the message acknowledge the effort required after purchase?
    • Does the stated expertise rest on experience rather than recently acquired vocabulary?
    • Does the teaching material belong to the person selling it?
    • Does the promotion fit the business's mission, rather than merely imitate another launch?

    These are not substitutes for a marketing strategy. They are tests of whether the strategy is selling something the business can stand behind.

    The final discipline is to review the email from the other side of the transaction. Not only whether it makes the purchase attractive, but whether the customer's expectations will remain reasonable once the payment is complete.

    That is where persuasive writing becomes accountable business practice.

    The email has to earn the sale without borrowing against a promise the product cannot keep.

    TRANSCRIPT

    Just ask yourself before you put anything out there, is this true? And even when I'm writing Facebook ads, like I want to be careful about not insinuating that you buy this program and you have an ATM machine in your office, like building and like having a digital course business, like it's work, like it's it's complex. A lot of people try and fail. It's going to be work. It's going to take time. You'll have lots of flops. So I'm always like looking at my marketing and making sure that it's true. Hey, it's Greg and welcome to the future podcast. Today's guest is an email marketing expert. In fact, it's her superpower and one that she's built quite the successful business around. She also has the best name that I've ever heard. Tarzan. How cool is that? In this episode, Tarzan and Chris talk about her journey from jazz pianist to lawyer to copywriter and ultimately to course creator. And what I love most about their conversation is that Tarzan is so transparent and generous. She talks about how her sheltered upbringing paved the way for a rebellious spirit, and she doesn't shy away from talking about money. So you'll get to hear the what, the how, and the why of how her business works and all the revenue that it generates. If you're interested in copywriting or email marketing, then you're going to love this episode. And if you're not, that's okay too. The stories and the lessons shared here can apply to just about any marketing tactic. So put away your inbox for the next few minutes and please enjoy our conversation with Tarzan Kay. - You're super intriguing to me because you're unlike most of our guests in that you have a very highly specialized skill and you work in a very specific way. I was literally listening to a few of the podcasts that you've been on before, so I don't want to rehash old territory here. But I want to just start off with this because I saw it in the thing that you answered. But before I ask you this question, I want you to introduce yourself. Tell us who you are and what you do so our audience gets to know who you are. Okay, great. So I'm Tarzan Kay and I am an expert in email marketing. Writing really great emails is my superpower. And I feel like my job here, I mean, it's to teach people about email, but I mean, my job here is in here on earth is like to show people what it looks like to be fully yourself, to be brave and to put messaging out there that feels really sincere, open, honest, deeply authentic. - And your answers to the email questionnaire that we sent to you was really fascinating 'cause I'm like, This lady knows how to write. You have me. On a boring questionnaire, you have me. So I saw that you wrote this. You got to follow your dreams and listen to what gift you have been given to lead with. Now, your background is like you studied law, you studied French. It's like you're just an interesting oddball. And now you're a copywriter or was a former copywriter. But tell me about this whole follow your dreams thing. Well, so the funny thing about telling people to follow their dreams is like a lot of us, including myself, I didn't know what my dreams were. I was just figuring it out. So, maybe I thought my dream was something and I went and tried it out and was like, "This isn't my dream." So, I thought my dream was to be a musician and I went to school and I studied jazz piano and I was like, okay. For one thing, it was a very rude awakening because I wasn't the best. In my small town, I was like, I dominated. And then I got to university and I was like, oh, everyone here is really talented and my talent is good but I'm not the best. And I also realized Well, at the time, with my perspective at the time, I was like, I don't think I'm dedicated enough to make a career out of this. Like, you know, there's like the best people at school. They're like practicing all night long and they're just like hound dogs. They're like, you know, they're just... they're willing to do it and I wasn't willing to do it. So then I was like, okay, so my career as an artist probably is not going to work out. So, but I like doing desk things. I like solving puzzles. I like reading. I think being a lawyer would be, it's like, it's surprising. how many copywriters went to law school, used to be a lawyer. Anyway, so I went to law school. I went to the law school in French, in Quebec. It was very out of my element. I already wouldn't have fit in coming from a music background, but I extra didn't fit in because I was like this Anglophone in a very Francophone, very Quebecois school. I don't even know what that means. Okay. You have to explain to us non-Canadians. Okay, so I'm Canadian. And there's like most of the provinces are largely English speaking. Some of them have like more French speaking areas than others. But Quebec is like fully French speaking province. It's the first language there. And there's lots of universities there and some of them are teaching both languages. Some of them like English speakers, Anglophones are more drawn to some universities. I was like, I'm going to go to the extra Francophone, like French where everyone's like only speaking French and it's mostly people that are like born and bred Quebec. I just like put myself in a situation where I knew I would be very different. And it was a cool experience. Like I liked studying, I sort of like studying law, but it was really hard 'cause I didn't have a great grasp on the language. And I was also like, oh, my values are really different from most of these people. So that was not took me three years before I was sufficiently miserable to be like, OK, I'll go do something else. And then, you know, I just like fled from my life, everything geographically, job, school, everything work. So I traveled around a bit and then it was in my travels that I figured out copywriting was a thing and that I could this was there was potential to like work from home and keep traveling or figure out where I'm going to live next. So I got into copywriting and I did it loosely for a couple of years, but it wasn't until I had a child that I was like, OK, I think I want to actually build a real business here. And then I got into copywriting and that's sort of the beginning of the beginning. Okay, the beginning of this phase of my life. Mm-hmm. Lots of things will follow up on here I don't know how one goes from jazz pianist to oh, let's do law They don't seem like they're in the same breath because like once is free spirited thing where you're here in the arts performing arts if you even and then one is like really structured and rigid and I have to imagine I Have you seen the movie whiplash? No, but I've seen you know what I'm talking about, though, the drummer and the teacher's insane. He's slapping him and hitting him and torturing all the students. And you're trying to be first chair, first drummer. And then you're like, I'm a big shot in my little town. And then you go there and there are these kids who are just insane and just want it so bad. I imagine it was something like that. Yeah, I would say not as intense. Nobody. There was no abuse going on. But it was I did see like some people were a lot more dedicated. Sure, sure. And it's good that you have the self-awareness even at that age and say, you know what? Yeah, let's try and find something else. And you did. Yeah. And also I was just like, I'm tired of being broke and I wanted to make money. And when I look at it now, I'm like, I don't think lawyers make that much money. I mean, the average lawyer, I have no idea what they make, but I don't think it's like a joy ride where you just make piles of money. But that was my education. And that was like what I was like, what's an obvious way to make money? That could be interesting. Oh, yeah. Lawyer. Also, like I thought that I would get respect. I thought like, you know, in my family, like education wasn't, we weren't taught to go and get an education. It was sort of looked on as something that fancy people do. And so I was like, I'll be fancy. I'll have this degree. I'll have letters after my name. I'll make money. Yeah, but as soon as I was in it, I was like, this is just not, this isn't for me. And now, funny enough, like I have so many students in my programs that are lawyers. I've had many private clients that are lawyers or like went down that road and discovered that it was not fulfilling. So who knows? I might have ended up in the same place anyway. I don't know. Right. Well, I do kind of see more of a connection, less from jazz to lawyer, but lawyer to copywriter because a lot of research, a lot of reading, a lot of writing, and you have to have command over the language because otherwise you're going to draft up a pretty bad contract or you're not going to do a great job for your client. I totally can see that. When you said that when you were growing up that going to school is for fancy people, were you not fancy people? Tell me about your family. Oh my gosh. Okay. There's so many stories here. So my dad was a missionary for like, several decades before I was born. And by the time I was born, he was having a second career with a second family. And he but he was still like his primary job was to make sure that we were all saved and no one was going to hell. And that was like harsh. It was harsh Because there were a lot of rules and we were like everything that we were that the clothes we wore, the music we listened to, like heavily scrutinized. Like on Friday nights, my parents would go on a date night and we could watch a movie like without my dad worrying that my dad would walk in and like find some issue with it. So, you know, there was there wasn't like and the worst thing you could be was worldly. Right. So like wanting too many things or like being of the world, like we didn't watch television. We didn't have any sort of channels we could watch. Like that was the greatest sin was to be worldly, which, which, you know, it's to me, like we're here to have a human experience. Like the world is full of humans having experiences. Like how can you not be worldly anyway? Uh, so I think, I, my brothers and my sister, like we have a heavy rebellious streak. So everyone kind of went out into the world to rebel in like the biggest ways they can. Probably part of that for me was like actually going to university. That was not the trajectory we were supposed to go on. Okay. So, uh, This usually happens. It's like through a lot of repression It's like bottling up a lot of energy and angst and especially in this modern time It's hard to keep your children away from all that and it's actually something I think you make them want to see the world even more Then you explode and you did your thing. Okay. Now I want to I I want to talk really about why I think or why I want to have you on the show and what value you can bring to the audience because you do something, like I said before, that very few of our audience understands and understands well, that you help to launch courses. You've got your own course, I believe. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. And then I've heard you say things like or read on your site that send more emails. If you want business, send more emails. More people read them and you should do this. Now, What is the in your experience? What is the apprehension that people have about sending emails? Why don't we do it more often? Oh, my gosh, it runs so deep. Like, I think for for a lot of people that don't there's a lot of like, who am I to take up this space in someone else's inbox? Like, who am I to show up as a leader and talk about what I know and tell, you know, show up as someone who knows more than you. So that's like, that's an enormous block. And it, you know, we have to work through this on all levels. Part of it is just like, well, you have to schedule, you have to schedule it and you have to do it because in the beginning you might not want to. So, you know, I, I felt all those things too in the early days of my business. I did something, there were some remarkable things that happened to me that I feel like helped me make that, figure that out. And one of the things was in my first year in business, I was in this email copywriting competition and I, I was like, oh, I think I could win this competition. And it was like a three-day thing. And it was a lot of like, it wasn't just about talent. It was also about ability to see how votes are, like to see how votes are counted and to see like, you know, getting votes in the early on in the day is really important because then you're at the top of the list and more people see you. Like, you know, I didn't win the competition necessarily because my emails were the best. They were good. But I also figured I was like, hey, I know how to win this and I won this. And so I did have, that was like validation for me, but also I was like, okay, I can use this. This shows that I have some authority. So I'm going to start showing up in this way and just like leaning into what people seem to be recognizing as a gift that I have. And then so but I still had a very small email list, which is another big objection is like, what's the point? Like, there's only a few people. Is anyone reading this? Is anyone listening? And and. So initially like I had like 35 people on my email list and I would like ask people like hey can I put you on my email list like I had a few past clients I would just ask them can you be on my email list. You know there were like family members on my email list. Some of them I'm like you're still on my email list. Oh my gosh. I send so many emails about things you don't care about anyway. So the big things to get over in the early days, like who am I to do this? And that is like, you know, we do have to like coming into like understanding your value and like having a deep sense of self-worth. Like that is very deep work. Like I can say, look, it's important that you schedule it. It's important to be consistent. Like when it comes to email, consistency is one of the most important things like to be telling people, to be showing people I'm gonna show up every Friday in your inbox and you're still doing it six months later. Like there's a lot of trust built there. So that's a big one. So I can say like, okay, You should put you should block it in your calendar every Friday at 2 p.m. that you write your weekly email. You should set a timer for 30 minutes and then at the end you should just send it even if it's OK. Like when you have a small list, that's great. You can practice. You can some I still like some of my emails are average. I, you know, if I send five emails, like one of them's brilliant, two of them are pretty good and two others are like very average. One of them might be below average. So I don't nail it. I don't knock it out of the park every time, but I'm very consistent. So you can like, you can implement these practical strategies in your business, but I also feel like they don't work unless you're also like doing your own personal healing, like working through your trauma, because all of that stuff is like inflamed by running a business. Like when you're showing up publicly, like especially like as my business has grown, like the level of scrutiny is so much higher. There's like expectations on me are so much higher. I have to be deeply rooted in my self-worth and feeling like I know my mission. I know my message. I'm showing up every day for it because I'm of course, like there's going to be people who don't like it or people who disagree with me. And in the early days, that might have just looked like people that are like, well, who are you? Like, you're no, I know more than you, you know, it's the same. I think it comes from the same place. So we, we have to be always doing that work. Okay, there's so many things for me to follow up on. I don't want to interrupt you, but as you tell, as you give me one answer, there's four more questions that pop up in this place, right? It's like this weed that's growing in the garden. I'm like, wait, there's more here. This is, okay, you look like you're still relatively young compared to me. You're still a very young person. So you enter into this competition for copywriting. I didn't know such things exist. How old are you at this point in the story? So I'm 35 for reference today. All right. And this would have been like four years ago. Actually, exactly. So I was there. Go then. OK. Yeah. So very recent. What was remarkable to me is such things exist. And you feel like I want to answer this and I think I can win it and see probably the most important thing to pull from this is there's the art of writing emails. And then there is You understanding the criteria in which people would judge this, which is the big insight, I think. And you made a point to talk about that. Right. So what did you see and how did you figure that out? OK, so it was a three day competition. So I had the benefit of seeing each day how things were judged. So it was like, for one thing, it was a vote-based thing. It was hosted by this software that I don't even think is around anymore. I think it was called Upworthy. Yeah. But maybe I'm just thinking of something that exists and is popular. So anyway, it was hosted by this software company and these two other people. And the two people I was like, I know those people. They're sort of influencers in this small industry that I'm in. So I would like to get in front of them and this software company. They just want people to look at their software. So they're like... for one thing, you couldn't just post it on Facebook and be like, "Everybody come and vote for me." You had to prime them because they had to start an account. - I see. If I saw this today, I'd be like, I don't think I can participate in this. I can't ask people to sign up for something. But I was early in my business and I was really gung-ho. So the first day, I just watched how the voting went and I put my entry in and I did okay. And maybe the first day I got in fourth place or something. But the second day was when I started to feel like maybe I could win. And I realized like the voting was going to be judged at the end of the day. At the end of the day, they would count the votes at like five o'clock or something. Therefore, like the earlier I wrote my email, the more time I would have to like hustle votes. And also if I got votes really early on, as I said, then I would be at the top. And when there's 100 entries, like if your entry is number 150, like it doesn't matter if you wrote the greatest email, you just are not going to win, which is like such a good lesson in business. Like sometimes you can be like, the best at this one thing. But if you don't understand like some of the other rules at play, it's just not going to work. So in fact, detour into my program email stars, like a lot of people come to me and they're like, Tarzan writes amazing emails. I want to write amazing emails. Is that what you teach in your program? And really like I teach a little bit about that. that. But actually, like there's so many parts of the whole, like it's a whole system. It's not just like sending emails. It's like you have to understand the strategy of like how to tag people and how to put them in groups and like how to like increase your deliverability. And there's like, you know, it's this whole web of information that you have to know. So, the competition, I mean, it was really, it wasn't like I was solving a Rubik's cube, which I also later learned how to solve. But it was pretty simple and I figured out the trick. I also, oh, this is a good one. So, the second day I won and then on the morning of the third day, I went into, there was also like a private Facebook group where all the contestants were hanging out. And I went into, and this was like, this sounds like a big deal. There's competitions all the time going on that I don't even notice. thought it was a big deal because I was making it a big deal and I had decided it was going to be a big deal if I won. But there were like maybe 150 people in this whole competition. So it was like I knew it was very doable. On the third day, I went into the group and I was like, here's what it takes to win. Do all these things. things. Get your vote, get your email written early, like get at least 10 votes before 10:00 AM so you're at the top, blah, blah, blah. And I think I also probably just generated a lot of goodwill. So, you know, some of the people participating in the contest probably didn't, they weren't even planning to win. They were just on, you know, just like going along for the ride and they're like, there's Tarzan, she's nice. I'm going to vote for her. well i want to tie this to the world of design for my larger audience here in case they're like okay copywriting is not my thing marketing here's the thing that you guys can all understand and let's make this broadly universal for creative people is that creative people mistakenly believe that it's just the art and craft that's going to win the day for them and so they're often confused and frustrated when clients ruin They're designed by making all kinds of changes just because they miss the forest through the trees. They forgot that there's a business objective. And you looked at this as, I guess, a 31-year-old at that time and said, how's the game being played? What matters? And posting early or sending emails out early and understanding how this works. And from the sounds of it, if you're in that stack of top five, you're going to be a little bit more visible. Maybe that helps you a little bit. And this has a lot to do with search. And if we get 100 emails in our inbox, what are the four that you're going to reply to right away? Which ones are you going to stop? Because my finger is literally on the delete button as I'm going through my inbox. So it's going to take a lot. It's going to take a lot for me to stop. And I want to give everybody a little taste of who you are. So joining me today is Tarzan, and here's how she described herself. She's a master of email marketing and former copywriter for hire who specializes in fun-to-read, more addictive than Game of Thrones email copy. She also helps freelancers attract better clients who will reach deeper into their pockets to pay for top quality services, also using the power of email. Duh. So she knows how to write. She knows. I mean, even your name is intriguing. Like, I wasn't sure who you were until I listened to your voice on the podcast. Tarzan must be a man, right? Like Tarzan, right? Of course. It's like such an unusual name. Like everything about you is like is crafted almost. And is this your birth name or did you change your name? So I did change my name when I was 22. I wish I knew. I think I changed my name seven years ago. So I guess I was in my late 20s and I had my old name was Amy Knapp. And my mom had changed her name prior to me changing my name and I was like, okay, cool. I didn't know this was something I didn't know this option was available to me. And for like at least a year I was like, I think I'm ready for a new name. I really don't feel like my name is my name anymore. And I wasn't like actively looking for it. I was just like inspiration will strike. And when inspiration struck, okay Tarzan, I was like, this is weird, but I am pretty sure this is my name. And I told my family like I'm changing my name and my husband who is not my husband at the time, he didn't really like it. And I even briefly tried a different name and was like, Oh, that, no, it's definitely Tarzan. Okay. Yeah. And for a long time, like, you know, I used to get more questions about it. Now I feel like I fully embodied Tarzan. So I don't get as many, like, I don't have to answer it all day long every time I go to the coffee shop. But I, people would ask, what's this all about? Like, you know, and I was like in the beginning like I didn't have an explanation. I was like, it's just the name that came to me. I don't know but this is my name now and it took a couple years before I realized like the name Tarzan when I changed my name I had to show up in a completely different way in the world like you can't Amy. could go under the radar. Like she was cool. She could like hang out in a corner and no one would notice her and that was fine. But you can't be Tarzan and not be like loud and powerful. And I think that is who I have been all along. I just maybe was afraid of it. So it did really force me to step into a new and really powerful identity. Also from a marketing perspective, like I I did know, so at the time there was this woman, Amy Knapp, who sold these Christian family planners. And at the time, like anything associated with Christianity was like a huge red flag for me, just because I had been so damaged by it as a kid. So I was like, I don't want to be associated with this. I also don't want to compete with this person. So I also, and I was writing a book and I was like, I need this, I'm kind of on a timeline. I need a new name before I publish this book. And then I realized, I remember my publisher being like, could it be Tarzana? Like, no, it's Tarzan. Cause he was worried about search. And interestingly, like I like I dominate Google and I am not a content creator. Like I don't have a podcast or a blog or like anything like that. I do Instagram and I write emails. But in order to even get my emails, you have to have found me somewhere and join my list. So I'm not a content creator, but I still am like, You Google me, everything is me. So you do dominate because presumably Tarzan is a fictional character and they're not making too many Tarzan things. So as long as you do something, you're going to pop. And it's a name that you have to be bold with and you have to be comfortable in your own skin. So I have to ask you this question. When and where did you find this self-confidence to be this person? Is it something that you always had or at what point in your life does it change from being Amy Knapp to being Tarzan because something had happened to you? No, I definitely had to grow into it. And part of it, like actually changing the name, like I, you know, I went down to City Hall and it's surprisingly like it only costs $135. You get a new birth certificate, you get a new license, like everything. So I made it official. And then I definitely had to grow into it and being in business and also at the same time starting a family, like those things were just like such intense personal growth. I think just just having been able to do that, like I built a million dollar business, I have the most incredible two children, I support the family, my husband is a stay-at-home dad. I just feel, I feel like, most importantly too, like I am like, I freaking love my life. I'm outrageously happy. I, I, you know, even in 2020, like there've been so many difficult, like so many deeply challenging things come up and, uh, I'm okay. Like it's, it is, my life has dramatically changed in the last five years. And a lot of that has been growing into my name. Mm-hmm. You mentioned this before and you kind of tiptoed into it, but I want to ask you, like, why are you not good at social media? Because you're like, I'm weak. Maybe you said you're stuck. I don't know where I saw this, but why aren't you good at social media? Okay, I used to actually say this a lot and I will say so for my first couple years in business I was like I don't I don't Facebook like doesn't feel exciting to me when I open Instagram I'm just like I don't understand this platform and I would occasionally like post a picture of like my lunch or my kids or like something cheesy and I'd be like I didn't use it like I wasn't using Instagram as a user or I just didn't understand how the platform worked and to be honest, I really now I started using Instagram last September. It's made a dramatic difference in my business. I've hired a lot of support to help me learn the platform and also I've spent a lot of time figuring out what's fun. And I think I'm like now I feel like I'm getting in the swing of it. I feel like I'm good at it. I it didn't come naturally to me. It definitely didn't come naturally. I needed to get help and take programs and like have a lot of handholding. So what have you also. Oh, sorry. I'll tell you what I've learned. I also, and I'm really privileged to be able to do this, but I figured out in my business, like what, what makes money, what brings in clients, what makes money, what can I do myself? That's always been email. Like that is consistent for me. No matter what I spend on Facebook ads to grow my email list or time I spend speaking on podcasts, speaking on stages, people join my email list. It works. or social media, I was like, I don't really get it. So for one thing, I had to prove to myself that it would make a difference in my course promotions. And there's another thing. I had to figure out where the ROI was. Oh, and then, I mean, because I have, I was starting, starting with a profitable business, I could afford to get someone to help me. And one of the things that makes a dramatic difference to me is like for like consistency with posts I know is really important. However, I have always hated using Instagram's platform to post on the grid. So I just like, And also to do it consistently every day. Like I had to figure out my own system. So in my business, we use Asana, a project management software. And in Asana, like I have a task every Monday. I write five Instagram posts. and then I don't choose the pictures, I don't make graphics, like I have, I hand that off to someone else who takes care of all that. So that's what my system looks like. I don't, obviously that not everyone could do it that way, but systematizing it. The same thing is with email. Also, in order to get that email out every single week and be consistent, I had to put it in my calendar. I had to make sure I wasn't spending an enormous unsustainable amount of time on it. I had to learn that that it's easier to write it in a Google Doc and then upload it. Figuring out a system for getting email out consistently, a system for doing social media, that helped enormously. And also, once I started using the Instagram platform, and this has been so key to my success on Instagram, is figuring out what's fun. What's fun for me, I can do consistently. So Instagram stories, I like doing them. They're fun. My content developer said to me, can you start doing reels? Here, watch this video. I'd like you to start doing reels. And I was like, oh, okay, I guess I'll do it. And finally I got around to watching a video that took five minutes. And then I was like, okay, I have 20 minutes before my next meeting, I'm gonna make a reel. And I like went and got I just like bought some new clothes and I had like sort of a vision for what I would do with this reel. And I made the reel in 20 minutes and it was fun. And I was like, oh, great. This is a strategy I can get behind because it feels creative. It gets me out of my chair. Like I need to really understand where is the ROI going to come from? And also, like, how can I make this work? Like, how can I fit this into all the things I'm already doing? I work four days a week. I'm about to go down to three days. So I want to like only take on things that I know that I can actually commit to. Time for a quick break, but we'll be right back with more from Tarzan Kay. Hey, Greg Gunn from the future here. That's right, it's me again. Now the future's mission is to teach 1 billion creatives how to make money doing what they love without feeling gross about it. Now maybe you're in school but you feel like you're not getting what you need. Or maybe you're like me and sold all of your internal organs to pay for private art school tuition. But you know, it's been a while and you want to sharpen up some of those skills. Well, fortunately for you, we have a bunch of courses and products designed specifically to help you become a smarter and more versatile creative. Design courses like typography, logo design, and color for creatives go deep into the design fundamentals that you need to know and command in order to be successful. Check out all of our courses and products about learning design by visiting thefuture.com slash design. You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook. Meet Factor, your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef-crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals. Factor is dietician-approved, chef-prepared, and you-plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with Factor. Learn more at factormeals.com. Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. Welcome back to our conversation with Tarzan Kay. so it sounds to me like a couple of key takeaways here is that you started to attack instagram kind of like the way you do email marketing you figure out the system you play to your strengths and you delegate everything else that you don't want to do and then it starts to work for you and the other secret to your success there is to do things that you you like that are that you're passionate about that you can enjoy so it doesn't become work Like work should be play and you find a way to make it playful for you so you can do it and you can do it for the long run because it probably won't play out very well and you can't be consistent if you hate the whole process and it shows in what you do. Right? Yeah, totally. I do sometimes feel weird talking about this because I understand that probably most of your listeners don't have five employees. So I also feel compelled to say in the earlier days of my business, like I did do lots of tasks that I did not enjoy doing. But it also meant because I did them, I could outsource them to someone else when I was ready and I knew that they worked and I would get a higher return than it costs to pay someone else to do it. Right. And this is a big step for entrepreneurs. So- understanding that your time is better spent doing something else and letting go of some of these tasks is the big test for entrepreneurs because otherwise you'll be a sole proprietor for the rest of your life it'll just be always you nothing wrong with that but that's pretty much the step the big jump that you have to take conceptually mentally that's that's the move you have to make okay this is a perfect segue because the thing i have to talk to you about now is the business part of what you do you uh so first of all How much money do you make a year? And then how do you make that money? Because I think you do a couple of different things. And I would love to talk about that. And you can answer whatever you feel comfortable answering. Oh, yeah, totally. OK, so we just actually I literally just came from our annual meeting. So I'm very fresh on all my numbers. So we're just coming up on the end of our fiscal year and we predict that we'll hit one point two million. Right now, we're very close to that number. So one point two million. Thank you so much. So this is actually our first time hitting seven figures in a single year. So it's really exciting and it's really exciting that it happened in 2020 like when I basically was like I'm letting go of all my goals that I don't even know if are important to me anymore. So it's like just a little interesting side note. So most of that revenue actually let's say 95% of that revenue comes from selling courses. So I have one sort of what I would call a signature program where I teach email marketing, how to write emails, like, you know, all this stuff around email marketing, mostly for course creators, although service providers do take it as well. Cause it's really, it's the same work, like how to sell with email, how to build relationships, how to make your, you know, turn your subscribers into customers. So that's our main product. And that product, let me just do some quick math in my head, is about a third of gross revenue. Okay, 30%. So then I also have affiliate promotions, which means I sell other people's courses. And that's probably 40%. I'm learning a lesson here, which is like historically I've always put more effort, more time, effort, money into promoting other people's courses. And this year I was like, hmm, there's something going on here. Like why, this is, like again, being in business like so many lessons I have to learn all the time and I think that also is a self-worth thing self-belief like I can believe I can believe in the dream for other people's stuff but not for my own so I learned that lesson and it was you know anyway I'm still learning it so hopefully next year our revenue will not be like 40% will not be we're looking at making that less and the my own programs more. So then the other 30%, gosh, where does the other 30% come from? I do the occasional VIP day with clients. I have, um, I have like some low cost workshops. Like I have a workshop that teaches people how to sell services for a day rate. I have this little workshop called Get Paid in USD for Canadians who charge in US dollars. Little things that like they don't make a lot of money. I love those products and I want everyone to buy them. So I keep them on the market. So, yeah, there's like, you know, I don't know, other things. There's big category, my course, big category, other course, and then everything else. - Okay, so the course, your signature course, email marketing, accounts for about a third of your revenue. How much does that sell for? So, that sells for $1,500 US and we do a six-month payment plan or we did, we used to do three months. This year we did six months just because we felt like that maybe that would help people out this year. So, it's a little, it's like 10% more if you buy it on a payment plan. And the affiliate programs I sell are between $2,000 and $3,000. industry standard with affiliate promotions is 50% commission. So that's usually what I get for affiliate promotions. And I will say like for, you know, just in case you have anyone in your audience who's like, wants to get revenue from courses but doesn't want to make their own, I still think it's a great way to make money. It did help me sort of transition from being a service provider and figuring out the world of launches and online course promotions and just promoting someone else's thing rather than like creating and selling my own i found it just sort of helped me with the learning curve a little bit and also it helped me serve clients and then i could just like do a promotion i didn't have to deliver the offer after so i could go back to my client work it was a great great learning but i might have just latched on to it a little bit a little bit too hard i wasn't clear when you talked about your price i was trying to figure out your website but i don't want to look at that how much is the course creation I'm sorry, the email marketing program that you sell? Fifteen hundred. Fifteen hundred? Fifteen hundred. Yeah. Fifteen hundred. Okay. There we go. Fifteen hundred. One thousand five hundred. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to circle back to this thing where you said like it. It is easier to sell other people's stuff than it is our own. And it's really weird because when I sell my own stuff, I feel like I'm being self-promotional. Whereas if I really believe in somebody else's product, I can speak about it very objectively, even though I'm collecting an affiliate fee for promoting it. It's really weird. And I don't think you and I are alone in that. And we have to kind of figure out what the heck. Why am I so ready to yell at the top of a building? Hey, buy this. This is great. And not feel embarrassed by it. But as soon as you do it for yourself, it just feels a little slimy or weird for some reason. I agree and I've been working through that myself. I also have found like since so my program Email Stars has been around for two years now and now that I have like way more client testimonials way more like the program gets better every year we add more resources we add more cool stuff. So I feel more and more confident about it. And the more I can get behind my own product, it just sells better and better. Like I can write way stronger emails. I can, when I'm speaking on like an Instagram live or like, you know, some sort of channel, I'm even on a webinar. I'm like deeply rooted in my own belief that it's an amazing program that really helps people. Whereas like the first time I was promoting it, I was like, I don't, I'm creating this thing. Like, I hope it works. Like, come join me for the beta round. Right, right. Okay. I want to talk about something else here related to this, which is I think people who are very successful at launching courses follow a very specific formula. And it's almost like it's A to Z and it's exactly what you need to do to be successful to have a seven figure launch. And part of it is to enroll a lot of affiliate marketers who then offer bonuses and time release things, time sensitive things. And I look at this and this is the weirdo in me. And I think, does it always have to be like that? Maybe it's just like the rebel inside of me is like, there There must be a non-formula formula, but it seems like everybody that's very successful follows the formula. So first, what is the formula? And then let's have a conversation about that. Oh, thank you so much, because I like I want to understand this, too. So I've noticed for myself, like and I'm really trying to correct this is the last four and a half years, like I've been in this bubble. of like course creators who promote each other. They use the same systems like they're all like descendants of this guy Jeff Walker who made this program product launch formula and like you know he's sort of like the guy that all the people I know learn from. So everyone's kind of teaching the same thing. And the strategy is like instead of having a course that's for sale all year long you only sell it once or twice a year you open the, we call it the cart, you open the cart, your enrollment period is like seven to nine days. And throughout that you offer incentives for people to sign up. Like I always teach every single day, there should be a reason for people to sign up. You, um, you like just added a new bonus or something is going away that you were giving away yesterday or like now Now, you know, there's lots of things you can do. Now there's like, I don't recommend discount codes, but now there's like a new payment plan or whatever. So everyone kind of follows that formula and it definitely works. However, I too am like, I really want to know what else there is because I know from personal experience that to actually execute on a launch like that. Like if you did it by yourself, like I've tried to do it by myself and just felt so miserable and so burnt out and it didn't even do what I wanted it to do and no wonder 'cause my energy was totally scattered. So I do think like there's something to simplifying and there are definitely lots of ways to simplify like pre-selling your program, just doing a workshop, like not having all the bonuses, like, I've done so many versions of that strategy, but it does seem to work the best when I do everything. However, let me tell you this, you're gonna like this, Chris. So I am listening to this podcast and I hear this woman and it was a podcast about investing. And she's talking about investing and she's like totally speaking my language. Like she's talking about how like trading on the stock market has been like typically reserved for the white male. And it's like upholding the patriarchy. We like tell people like you can't invest like it's very volatile. It's like not safe. You have to know a lot. Like she's like, I'm like, tell me more. Tell me more. So I'm so into her vibe and then she talks about her program and I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I definitely want this program. And so I go to her, I don't know, I find out, I go visit her online, her pages, and her pages are like, you know, for me who's like, I've executed on so many of these launches. Like I know what it looks like when someone's doing it perfectly. She's doing it very imperfectly. She's just being herself. Like I found this webinar that was like outdated. Like the bonuses she's talking about are like long expired. The landing pages, I'm like, oh my God, you could optimize it like this. You could do this. Like where are the bonuses? Anyway, like I'm looking at this webinar webinar replay that's outdated and it's actually just a YouTube video. And I messaged her on Instagram. She was like, yeah, those bonuses aren't available anymore. I'm like, I'm looking at it. I'm like, I know I'm a great candidate. Um, if you just did these things, I would buy, but then I keep going back to it. And I'm like, there's like two versions. There's like the $2,000 version and the $5,000 version. Anyway, the end of the story is I bought the expensive version and There was no sales funnel, really. It wasn't executed anywhere near what I would have done if it were my launch. But on the other hand, she spoke very clearly to me She was so clear on that podcast. Like this woman is talking to me. This is a program for me. She was so clear on that. I've since listened to her on other podcasts and noticed like she says the same thing. Like she's clear on her core stories and she keeps going back to them. I personally would get bored doing that. But maybe she, I don't even, anyway, she's very clear on those points. Her webinar was like, you know, she did a perfect balance of like teaching and selling. Anyway, I keep thinking and I like I've shared on Instagram like, hey, I'm learning from Terry Joma, trade and travel. Like this is such a great program. And I had so many people message me that were like, oh, my "Oh my gosh, this looks so great. I just signed up." I was like, "You just spent $2,000 and you only saw this short form sales page?" Then Terry reached out and was like, "Hey, why don't you have this affiliate code?" I was like, "Yeah, great. Okay, let me promote some more." Anyway, the point is, She just had a really enticing offer and she really spoke to it well and like she's doing just fine without all these bells and whistles. So I know it can be done and I'm also really interested in like looking outside my bubble to see what's possible because it's really easy to think that you actually have to do everything in order to be successful and I know from my own experience that you don't hmm, okay If you don't mind I'd like to stay in this bubble if you will because I want to geek out and I want to touch on some Potentially controversial hot subjects here. Mm-hmm. Okay, so I did notice too that there does seem to be this bubble and mostly women course creator authors who self promote other courses. It seems so incestuous. And I talked to one of my friends, Joanna Galbao, who's like in this too. She's like, Chris, this is how you launch a seven figure business. And I was just like, ah, here's the problem. Are you familiar with this term fake guru or a contrapreneur? Yes. Okay. Because there seems to be a bit of this going around and it's wildly hot that somebody will create a course like Jeff. And then there's people repackaging it over and over again. And it starts to feel like there's some kind of Ponzi scheme going on here where people will produce a course on how to do webinars, teaching other people how to do webinars. But actually, there's no content. It's just teaching more people how to do webinars and selling them. And you're OK as long as you're not at the bottom where it stops. And course creation is such big business these days. And there's the reaction of, man, is it really worth it? Are you a good enough teacher? Is this something that somebody can learn from a book for $30? And why are they paying $3,000 for a course like this? So there's a lot of that. And my gut feeling is that I don't want to sound like those people because some of them don't seem legitimate to me at all, while others are legitimate. So I'm going to go in a very different direction. So we deliberately stay away from all that. But I feel like i'm not selling as much as i could if i if i follow just this formula do a do a webinar talk about expiring bonuses act now you know all those things that happen with scarcity and and just pushing that that kind of you got to buy this today even if you're not ready you're going to buy it today so i'm just curious to hear your take on all of this and to continue down this rabbit hole if you will I'm so glad because this is one of my favorite subjects. Let's do it. I also, yeah, it's also a huge part of my mission and my business is like to work because the people that are really attracted to my work, even though I follow that formula are like something feels icky about the state of marketing, like something feels off and I can't market myself because I don't want to be that person. So I think that's That's really real and it's definitely a call to check in with what are we doing here? Are you doing this marketing because you feel like, does it feel in alignment with your mission or are you just doing it because someone told you this is what it takes to be successful? The problem that you mentioned of people selling what they learn from someone else is very real. I noticed this in my first year in business, I took B-School and I can't tell you how many coaches were in, I got a lot of success from that program. So I don't mean to disparage B-School. I took it, I promoted it for years, it's a great program. However, I did see so many students that were like, okay, I'm a business coach. I'll teach you how to do all these things that you just learned how to do in this program. And yeah, I was like, okay, so you're a business coach, but I know you just started your business at the exact same time I do. And like, also it is like, um, it is something that white people do. White people, I think, are more prone to be like, this is actually white supremacy. I am entitled to call myself an expert. I'm the coach. Everybody buy from me. To me, when I see people repackaging stuff they just learned from someone else, in my observation casuals that they do tend to be white people and we it is like a bit of a colonizer thing to do is like I see I learned this thing I now this land slash information belongs to me like I've caught myself doing it before and even in my own program I was like going through it recently and I had some students bring these emails to me and I was like my heart seized. It was like, oh my god, these emails don't belong to me. And right away, like I messaged my friend Rye who wrote them and I was like, bro, I stole something from you and this like I'm going to make it right but I want you to know I took these two emails. And I worked it out, but I also noticed, like, I have to watch out for my programming because I have been, like, I have been basically, like, you know, like, I've been schooled into white supremacy without even noticing it, and it creeps in all the time. So that's part of this, and I want to acknowledge it. Yeah. So, that's kind of the dark side of it. I am someone though who sells a program about email marketing and I sell it through email. So, like, you know, I-- Yes. And I also feel really good about what I do. And my students are like, you know, one of them sells like she teaches people how to do needlepoint. Like, I have another client student who teaches quilting. Like, one of my students like teaches how to make vision boards. Like, part Part of being a marketer is like we see, it's sort of like buying a red car and then like all of a sudden all you see is red cars. Like when you're a marketer, like we're almost like our sensitivities are heightened. We're like, oh, everybody's doing the same thing. But actually in other industries I can see like, oh gosh, if you just like use these same strategies, you will be so successful, you'll sell so much more. So, oh gosh, I hope that unravels something of it, but I am always watching out for it. And I noticed like another part of this. So there's this wonderful article about bro marketing and she teaches like, she talks about like where these traditions came from, like how we build in urgency and scarcity and how we like create this image of success. And like, it's so gloss. and it makes it look like it's all about just making money. And like these, even if you've, even if, even if I Tarzan, like distance myself from these like dudes in Lamborghinis, I still like she, the way Amanda worded it is like, we're all drinking from the same polluted pond, right? And I thought that was so brilliant because I do sometimes default to drinking from the pond and I have to always step back and be like, does this feel an integrity with what I'm trying to do? Um, And I definitely make mistakes. I will say like there are honest ways to build in urgency and scarcity, but what people often do, like I'll catch my students writing emails that are like only 12 spots left. And I'm like, okay, so I know that you haven't even started this launch yet. Is this true? And that's like the most basic filter and it's surprising how many people don't run their marketing through that filter but like just ask yourself before you put anything out there is this true and even when I'm writing Facebook ads, like I want to be careful about not insinuating that you buy this program and you have an ATM machine in your office, like building and like having a digital course business like it's work like it's it's complex. A lot of people try and fail. It's going to be work. It's going to take time. You'll have lots of flops. So I'm always like looking at my marketing and making sure that it's true. OK, OK. So Here's the question then, really, because there's like this sense of like when I see these things, they feel fake. And I know all the tricks it's designed to manipulate me to act. Right. So the idea of bonuses that expire, the urgency, like only limited time. And there's only so many of these things. The marketer already knows these things in advance that they're going to include these free downloads. And what they do is they set up the sales page to not include it and then to add them back in. And I know it's a trigger because people want to feel like they're getting a tremendous deal and that these things are going away. So am I so naive in thinking that, you know what? I just want to be honest with you. This class, it's up forever. This is the price. The price may go up. The price may go down. I don't know. And I think you'll learn a lot from it. I don't run webinars, I don't run email tripwires, I don't run anything. But I think, darn it, I'm only hurting my business because we're not selling like crazy. When I hear these seven figure launches that only sell once a year, I go to my team like, what are we doing wrong, guys? Right. So, yeah, opening once a year, like it does make a difference. And there is a reason why these evergreen style launches are like so, you know, there's like so much technology going into like building in that urgency. A marketer may know like how to get themselves back to the top of the funnel so they can get all the bonuses. But, you know, a new marketer doesn't. I do think like there is something to be said for people. people like they we genuinely need incentives to buy things like even the the this trade and travel program that I just mentioned buying like I was putting off the decision forever. Well not forever but I was thinking about it a lot and it was like five days later and I still hadn't made a decision. And then she had sent an email that said the price is going up on a certain date. And I was like I'll just buy this thing like I need you. I need you to like create a little bit of urgency because the like if I can have a reason to postpone and to do something later I will so in some cases I feel like you can there like and I want to be careful before I say this because oftentimes in marketing there's like a shiny explanation for why it's okay to do something that's shady that happens a lot. So I'm always checking in with myself. Is this true? Like, does this actually, do I actually believe this? But I do think like, in some ways, like if you're not using high pressure, like you are doing someone a service by coaching them into a decision. Because like we all struggle with indecision when you're making a like a larger purchase that represents a significant sum of money and like of course you're like second guessing yourself, is this okay? Are these people going to be there for me and follow through on their promises? Like you know to get them to actually make a decision and then like hopefully also offer a generous refund period should they change their minds. I don't know. I do. I can see both sides myself. And I always check in with myself though like do I feel good about this? Because if I don't feel good about it like I will either be able to do it for a short time and then I will never, I'll never do it again or else like it just won't work. Yeah. Okay. There's a couple of truths that you're touching upon here and you're helping me to understand this differently. And we want to be very clear that you can slip into the slippery slope where it's like post justification, like everything is rational. Like, yeah, you killed a couple of people, but you know, they deserve to die. No, no, it's for the greater good. No, it's still, you killed a couple of people. So what you touched on here is that it's somewhat in human nature to postpone and only deal with the most urgent things. So if something is not urgent, we let it sit on that back burner. And then as soon as you said that, I relate to that in a number of different ways. Like if I'm shopping online in terms of like a shirt I want to buy, like I don't need it today. Like I don't really need a shirt, a new shirt or a new pair of shoes anyways, but I'm just sitting on it and there's no real compelling reason for me to act. I also think in relationships, it's like if you're the guy or the girl who's always waiting for the other person to notice you, they're going to be dating everybody else but you. Because you're always hanging around. You slipped into their friend zone and it's like there's no urgency, right? Did you know this? As soon as I say I'm going to move away or I'm giving up on this relationship, which is one of those email tactics, right? Yes. Is this it? Are you saying this is not worth it? No, no, no. Don't leave me. I want you now, right? I think the only reason why we marry people in the first place is because it's not because we want to keep them We just want to prevent other people from having them It's like it's a weird psychology so in a way these these kind of ideas of pressure and Scarcity and urgency just to help people to like, you know what today's the day that you change your life now if you make something that you truly believe that is going to help another human being that has been tested and that you stand behind your product. And it's not some regurgitated thing that you just learned yesterday. And the other thing, the other caveat is that you've actually been successful doing this thing first. Like you're an email marketer. You won the competition. I could tell you know how to write. you understand the game. It's not like you just borrowed somebody else's material and repackaged it in the Tarzan brand persona. So I think that is critical and that's a pretty good differentiation. And there's a lot of these scammers out there who are just selling courses based on nothing. They've never done it. Like when they're, I'm sorry, this is offensive to anybody, but when they're 18 year old kids telling me how to be a business coach, I'm like, please, what's the business you've started? And let's just look at that for a minute. Oh my gosh, totally. Yeah. So we're vibing on that, right? We're totally vibing on that. So many of my friends are like, my friends who knew me have known me all my life and they're like, how are you this millionaire buying Land Rovers? And I'm like, they're like, are you running a pyramid scheme? And how do I get in? Yeah, how do I get in? I have lots of emails about pyramid scheme jokes. But it's a joke and it's not a joke because there is like that, especially this is like a very unpopular opinion. But in the high ticket coaching world, like there are so many people like it. pay me a lot of money so I can teach you how to pay, how to like charge a lot of money. There's just like, and some people seem to do it with integrity. I've always just felt so weird about it. Like, and I charge a lot, but like, I'm not charging a lot to teach other people how to charge a lot. And other caveat, like a lot of people do not understand how much they need to make to run a business and they're drastically undercharging. So we do need all these people to tell you how to like charge a decent sum of money, but like, buy my high ticket offer so you can have your own high ticket offer. Like I do, I just really rubs me the wrong way. Which, and on a similar note is like, there's a lot of like, Pay me money so I can like fix your mindset. I was like, I don't know. I think it's weird. Like people, we are all like just walking around traumatized. So if you just like talk to traumatized people and you're like, just fix your mindset, I can fix it for you. Think this way. You're not successful because your brain is broken. Like, I don't think it's responsible. There's so much weird stuff going on in the online world. - There sure is. - It is a bit of a minefield and it's hard to figure out who's real and who's not. But I also do think if you're asking yourself these questions, you didn't invent them. So, you know, Look at that. Like what? Why does this feel off to you? And what could you do that actually you can get behind? And part of it is getting back to like understanding your own, like having a sense of self-worth, understanding the value of your program, putting it out there or your service. offering it again and again, and the stronger, like the more behind your own stuff you are and the more confident you are that it will get results for people, the easier it is to like actually show up for your marketing. I have to mention one more scammy kind of way of selling is there's an entry level product and each product is designed to sell you an even more expensive product. And you keep going up until you're in that inner circle, which is total BS, because if your product is good, that's where it's supposed to be. And don't just keep upselling. Right. So whenever you see that, it's like, be careful, guys, listen to your gut, do your due diligence. And unfortunately, a lot of these marketers They prey on the people who are very desperate, who really need the help, who can't really afford a couple other options. But then they go in and they go in just kind of blindly and they lose their money. Deep sigh. Yeah. All right. Deep sigh. Yeah, that definitely happens. Even like that whole term like inner circle. It's very patriarchal. It's very much about like getting to the top and like being in the insiders club. And like, you know, the definition of being in the insiders club means like a lot of people are excluded. So, yeah, I don't know. I see both sides also because like I have climbed those ladders of other people's companies and found it really valuable. And I also like I don't really like doing those sorts of offers. So I can like I can also make a justification for like why they're icky and gross because I just like it's a lot of work to offer to create that ladder and like have those programs that people pay a lot and expect a lot for. Right. Okay, I want to get this one last thing in from you before we go. I heard you sharing this on one of the podcast links that you sent to me about there's there's these different types of clients or targets where there's they're unaware of the problem. They're aware of the problem, the solution product. Can you tell us about that? Because I thought that was really valuable. Okay, so there's five stages of awareness. The first stage is problem unaware. It's like, let's say you're a designer and like you go to some, I've tried this in my copywriting days, like you go to someone's website and their design is like the worst thing you've ever seen. Like you can't pitch that client and sell them because if their website is that awful, like they don't understand the value. They don't even know they have a problem. Next stage problem aware. I know my website is like kind of sucky Well, you have like you still have to take them before someone buys they have to go through all the five stages, right? So let's say they're in stage two. I know my website sucky I don't really know what the answer is. That's stage two. You could approach that person. I know my stage three is Solution aware. I know my product, I know my website is sucky and I know that a designer, hiring a designer could help me with that. Or let's say since we've been talking about programs, I know that perhaps taking a program about design could help me make my website less sucky. Now they're solution aware. Next stage, product aware. So now I know I have a problem. I know that it could be better. I know there could be programs to help me. I also know of this program, Website in a Day, that could be one possible solution. So now they're at stage four, they're much closer to buying. Stage five is where people are at when they buy, which is like they understand all those other things. They understand there's a solution. They understand that one product that offers the solution is Website in a Day. they also understand here's what bonus I would get if I signed up today. I understand the cost. I understand the program's going to go for six weeks. I understand I'll get one hour of time with a designer. Like that is most aware and that's where you have to get people to in order to buy. So that could happen on a sales call. It could happen in an email. Usually like in a launch, if we're thinking about the context of like having a webinar where you present those people are problem aware, you present the solution, you present your solution by the end, they're like ready to buy because you walk them through every single piece. I love how you said that. I have a question. What is the difference between solution aware and product aware? So solution aware is like I want an online course. This is this is total pyramid scheme. I want to I want to have a website. The solution is like I could take an online program that would teach me how to do it. So that's not specific to any one solution. It's like this is the solution. - Oh, the general solution. - The general solution. - I got it. - Yeah, yeah. Sometimes we call product solutions too, right? So it's confusing. - Yes. - I see. So then the product is, I've identified now one place where that's where I think the answer is. Okay, like Chris's web design course versus Tarzan's web design course. - Exactly. - I picked one over the other. And then the last stage is they're ready to buy. Is that what we call that? - So problem unaware, stage one. Problem aware, stage two. Solution aware, stage three. Product aware, stage four. Most aware, stage five. - Most aware. I think. Something like that. I like that. So you have to get every customer essentially through this. And this is the whole funnel thing we're talking about, right? You have to, if it's a cold lead, they don't even know they have a problem. So you have to educate them on the problem as to why they're not getting as much traffic or conversions on their site or why their bounce rate to their website is really high. And then you're going to look for either a designer or some kind of training module, right? Yes. And in my days of writing copy for clients, I always had like a incredibly high conversion rate because the people coming to me were already product aware. In that case, I was the product, but they knew like, I'm my website isn't converting. Uh, So there is the problem. Also, better copy could be the solution. That's stage three. Stage four, Tarzan could be the person who could write that for me. Stage five is the sales call. I'm just letting them know how it's gonna work, answering their most basic questions. The fact that you were so poor or sucky at doing social media was a benefit to you because they have to work really hard to find you and look you up. So at this point, they're very aware of a lot of things, right? Yes. So your ability to convert at that point is really, really high. So once they find you on email, because prior to you kind of doing your Instagram game, that's how it had to happen. So I think this ties into an idea that you mentioned in a different conversation about how you can still make a lot of money with a very small email list. It just really depends on the kind of people you've nurtured in your email. Like they're very aware that you provide a solution. Now you have to just execute on that and be in communication with them. Right. Exactly. Yes, precise. Perfect. Okay, wow. Now, I probably could spend three more hours talking to you about all the different things and how to write killer emails and all that kind of stuff. I just want to ask you, what has been the best subject line that's gotten your emails open? Oh, yeah. There's this great tool that I really love called BombBomb, and it allows you to record videos, and then it creates like a little gif of the first two seconds of your video, and you put it straight into an email. It's really tempting, and I love making videos for people. I also love using different types of media and email. And then the subject line in lowercase, because it makes it seem like an email from a friend, is made you a video. It works really good. I have to use it sparingly. Okay. Okay. So mixed media email. I didn't really think of it like that. Very cool. I love using pictures and gifs and emails. Okay. So for people who want to find out more about you, Tarzan, where do they go? So I create my best stuff on my email list. So in order to get those, you have to join my email list. Lots of great freebies. But if you go to tarzank.com/email, there's a 10 email promo sequence swipe that you can look at and get ideas for promo emails. I have lots of freebies on my website, TarzanK.com, K-A-Y. But I would say like get the free thing but stay for the emails because they're really good. And I also actually hang out on Instagram all the time. So I do lots of behind the scenes and I'm also active in my DM. So if you message me, it will actually get to me. So on Instagram, are you at TarzanK, K-A-Y? Tarzan underscore K. You look up Tarzan K, like you're going to find me. I'm very easy to find. I didn't think you even had to add the underscore because it's such a unique name. I - I know, but apparently I did. - Dang, every combination has been taken. Very good. So if this conversation and your email answers to our question or any indication is your prowess as a copywriter, I'm gonna say with great confidence, you guys go check this out and find out more about what she's doing, especially if you need help with email marketing. And let's be honest, who doesn't? And I'm raising my hand at this point too. Thank you very much for coming on the show with me. - And thanks for having me. My name is Tarzan Kay and you are listening to The Future. Thanks for joining us this time. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get a new insightful episode from us every week. The Future Podcast is hosted by Chris Do and produced by me, Greg Gunn. Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing and mixing this episode. And thank you to Adam Sanborn for our intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by rating and reviewing our show on Apple Podcast. It'll help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. Have a question for Chris or me? Head over to thefuture.com slash heychris and ask away. We read every submission and we just might answer yours in a later episode. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefuture.com. You'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and creative business. Thanks again for listening, and we'll see you next time. But I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now, and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. 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