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    CAREER STRATEGY
    Podcast 13 min read

    How to Stop Drifting and Find Focus w/ Jule Kim

    with Jule Kim

    Chris Do and Jule Kim examine how to find career focus without confusing activity with meaningful progress.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · June 10, 2026

    A full calendar can conceal an empty direction

    Activity can look exactly like progress until someone asks what changed. Jule Kim, a coach whose work centers on listening and asking questions, knows that uncertainty from inside her own business. Her perspective matters because she is not offering a finished transformation story: she is trying to build a personal brand, attract clients, and decide where her work should lead.

    That makes her exchange with Chris Do more revealing than a conventional conversation about productivity. Kim does not need convincing that effort matters. She needs a way to tell whether her effort is accumulating toward something she actually wants.

    The distinction is uncomfortable. A day can contain posting, reading, responding, planning, and genuine fatigue without producing a meaningful result. Conversely, something that feels inconsequential today can influence a client's decision much later.

    Activity is not the same as productive work.

    Do begins by separating the appearance of working from the function of the task. Checking social feeds can be part of a media job. It can also be an avoidance strategy dressed in the language of research.

    The action itself does not settle the question. The responsibility attached to it does.

    For Do, recording a conversation is work because The Futur operates as a media company with an educational business. Preparation, production, checking performance, and responding to comments all belong to that operation. So do coaching calls, workshops, and public speaking.

    A product manager has a different center of gravity: shipping products and features on time. The same activity can therefore be central to one person's role and peripheral to another's. Looking occupied is not a useful common denominator.

    That is where Do locates a management problem. Organizations try to measure time and energy while giving too little attention to outcomes. Employees can sincerely believe they are working hard while leadership sees little movement on the results the business needs.

    He does not assign the failure exclusively to either side. Effort without productive direction becomes a shared problem when the company suffers. Arguing about who deserves blame does not resolve the missing result.

    Kim introduces the complication that prevents this argument from becoming simplistic. Clients have told her they examined her social profiles and read her posts before deciding to hire her. What looked like uncertain brand-building activity had contributed to a real buying decision.

    That evidence matters precisely because she could not see the effect as it happened. A discouraging day was not necessarily an unproductive one. Her feelings about the work and its commercial consequences were operating on different timelines.

    The challenge is not to dismiss every task without an immediate return. It is to distinguish an activity with a credible connection to the business from one that merely keeps discomfort away. For Kim, client explanations provide that connection.

    Before a better schedule can help, the work needs a destination. Efficiency cannot answer whether the destination is worth reaching.

    The bottleneck changes, and so must the work

    Do reduces the recurring problems of an entrepreneurial business to three categories. They are not interchangeable, and becoming busier in one does not automatically solve a weakness in another.

    • Lead gen: Bringing potential clients into the business.
    • Sales: Turning that interest into paid engagements.
    • Delivery: Doing the work those engagements require.

    Kim notices the order. First comes finding potential buyers, then converting them, then fulfilling the promises made. Her practical question is which of those areas currently constrains the business.

    Having changed her business, she identifies lead generation as the immediate problem. That diagnosis gives her a focus more useful than a general instruction to work harder. It also changes how her content should be judged.

    A post does not need to feel like a major accomplishment to contribute to discovery. But publishing cannot become its own justification. The relevant question is whether the activity helps the people she wants to serve find and evaluate her.

    Her client conversations offer a starting point. People have described reviewing her public work before making contact or choosing her over other coaches. That is a specific signal, not simply encouragement from an audience.

    The broader distinction between visibility and a business proposition also sits behind the title You Don't Need a Personal Brand. You Need an Offer. Here, Kim's experience keeps the issue concrete: the public presence has value when it helps explain why a client reached out and hired her.

    She wants to examine what has worked, surface the useful patterns, and experiment with doing more of it. Only then does scaling become a sensible subject. More activity is not the first move; a clearer reading of existing activity is.

    There is an emotional obstacle inside that apparently straightforward process. Kim describes the risk of slipping into discouragement, treating uncertainty as evidence that nothing is working. That interpretation can obscure the very signals she needs to study.

    Confidence and analysis are therefore connected, but they are not the same task. Feeling reassured does not establish a result. Feeling defeated does not erase one.

    This is the first important shift in the conversation: from judging the day to diagnosing the business. A day's mood offers a poor substitute for understanding how clients arrive, why they buy, and what the business can deliver.

    Yet the diagnosis does not settle everything. Knowing that lead generation needs attention still leaves a deeper decision unresolved. Kim must decide what kind of work she wants those leads to bring.

    A person can become effective at attracting more of a career they no longer want. Better execution can strengthen the wrong commitment as readily as the right one.

    That is why Do moves from business outcomes to professional direction. Kim's uncertainty is not only about whether a particular post works. It is about whether all these efforts belong to a coherent future.

    The business needs a current priority. The person running it needs a reason to keep pursuing that priority after the novelty wears off.

    Specialization is a door, not a dead end

    Do's account of finding focus begins with an advantage he readily acknowledges: he knew he wanted to become a graphic designer. He pursued formal study at ArtCenter, sought strong opportunities, and spent more than two decades working within design.

    But the clarity of that retrospective account can conceal how broad the field was. Kim presses on that point. Graphic design was not one narrow activity, and choosing it did not eliminate the need for further decisions.

    Do describes identity systems, editorial work, entertainment marketing, packaging, retail environments, and digital interfaces. Under one professional label sat different materials, production schedules, clients, and ways of working.

    His early business reflected that breadth. He designed logos and identity systems, worked on moving typography and graphics for television commercials, did some packaging, and built a website or two. The offer was wide enough to accommodate almost anyone who called.

    Eventually, breadth became the problem. By trying to do all those things, he felt he was not becoming good enough at any of them. The business needed a more concentrated investment of attention.

    Focus gives expertise somewhere to accumulate.

    Motion design became that place. Do did not describe a dramatic announcement or an elaborate public break with every other discipline. The shift happened through the work the business pursued and the inquiries it stopped cultivating.

    As he concentrated on motion design, calls for other services diminished. When they still arrived, he could say he no longer did that work. Specialization became an operating choice before it became a declaration.

    That detail is important for anyone treating focus as an irreversible announcement. In his account, the change was enacted through client acquisition and acceptance. The business increasingly became what it consistently sought to do.

    Nor did choosing motion design end all future decisions. That field contained its own subcategories. A narrower entrance opened onto more possibilities rather than a blank wall.

    The difficulty was agreeing to enter.

    Do's reasons for choosing that entrance were specific. Motion design offered more intellectual challenge than the static work he felt he already understood. It was enjoyable, presented an opportunity to excel, and appeared commercially promising.

    • The work demanded more than arranging static type and images.
    • The field offered challenges he wanted to keep solving.
    • Clients considered him for jobs he felt underqualified to take.
    • The money available signaled demand for the work.

    This was not a choice based on enjoyment alone. Nor was it a calculation based only on compensation. The attraction came from several considerations pointing in the same direction.

    His recollection offers a useful contrast to the search for absolute certainty. He had reasons to commit, not proof that every future outcome would be favorable. Those reasons were grounded in experience with the work and observable client demand.

    Kim's difficulty is different. Many things interest her. Where Do could distinguish an especially compelling direction, she sees several appealing paths.

    The next problem is no longer whether focus has value. It is how to choose when curiosity keeps making every door look inviting.

    Enjoyment is a clue, not a complete decision

    Kim describes the sensation as a compass whose needle keeps spinning. Everything seems enjoyable, so enjoyment cannot perform the sorting function she needs. An abundance of interests becomes another form of uncertainty.

    Do does not deny the appeal of multiple activities. His filter is more demanding: whether he can become exceptional at the thing, and whether he wants to make the commitment that standard requires.

    He uses sports to expose the difference between liking an activity and choosing it as a professional pursuit. He enjoys volleyball but sees his height, jumping ability, and age as limitations. Enjoyment does not make those constraints disappear.

    Skateboarding presents another boundary. He does not want to attempt dangerous moves with the willingness to endure injury that he associates with the strongest performers. He can appreciate the activity without accepting the costs of competing at that level.

    These are personal judgments about fit, not evidence that everyone should abandon an interest when difficulty appears. His question is whether the demands of excellence match the abilities and commitments the person can actually bring.

    Kim pushes back on the premise. Given enough time, she suggests, people can become good at many things. For her, identifying what to pursue remains the major obstacle.

    Do disagrees that time alone resolves the issue. People begin with different physical, cognitive, and interpersonal strengths. Working against those differences can make a goal substantially harder than building on an existing advantage.

    The disagreement gives the advice necessary friction. Kim emphasizes the possibilities created by practice. Do emphasizes the value of choosing where practice has the strongest foundation.

    Neither perspective supplies an instant test for hidden talent. That leads to Kim's more useful question: how does someone recognize an ability that has never been fully developed?

    Do turns toward childhood. He asks what a person enjoyed before repeated correction, social expectations, or concerns about earning a living changed the answer.

    A child who built things may have been told that making things was not a viable career. A child who told stories or made people laugh may have learned that talking was a problem. In Do's reading, the behavior did not necessarily disappear because the interest vanished.

    It may have disappeared because approval became conditional on suppressing it.

    This tension between inherited expectations and personal direction is also the subject named in Living in the Dogma of your Parents. Kim's own memories give that tension a particularly precise shape.

    She remembers being told to stop talking so much. She also remembers being told to stop asking questions. Those are now central activities in her working life as a coach.

    The point is not that every childhood habit predicts a profession. It is that a behavior once treated as excessive can contain something professionally valuable when placed in a different setting.

    Talking can interrupt a classroom. Questioning can frustrate a parent. Listening carefully and asking useful questions can also become the substance of a job.

    For Kim, revisiting the past does not produce a brand-new identity. It reveals continuity she had not fully recognized.

    The childhood broadcaster still has something to say

    One of Kim's memories is especially vivid. Her father owned a large video camera in the 1980s, and he let her use it. She would prepare a report on a typewriter, position the camera, and read into it as though she were broadcasting.

    Her model was Connie Chung. The performance involved more than liking attention: Kim prepared material, arranged the equipment, and delivered a report. She repeatedly returned to a recognizable kind of work through play.

    Years later, when she decided to switch from English to math in college, her father objected. He thought she should become a journalist because broadcasting was what she had continually pretended to do as a child.

    Kim did not see the connection as persuasive then. She believed she was good at math and recognized a logic in her thinking that suited it. She also believed she lacked the personality for journalism.

    That belief matters because it separated her remembered behavior from her adult self-description. The child had repeatedly performed the role. The young adult had concluded that the role did not fit.

    Retrospect does not establish that choosing math was wrong. It does expose how a decision can rest on a restricted account of the person making it.

    Kim also describes the pressure to choose something financially viable. The problem was not considering money. It was allowing financial considerations to become the only parameter when other goals had not been clearly defined.

    That distinction keeps the conversation from turning into an instruction to ignore practical needs. Do's own choice of motion design included visible commercial opportunity. Money belongs in the decision without being allowed to make the entire decision.

    Childhood interests are evidence to examine, not orders to obey.

    The memories worth revisiting are not limited to desired job titles. The conversation points toward recurring actions and the pleasure attached to them.

    • Building objects and working with the hands.
    • Telling stories and making other people laugh.
    • Asking questions and pursuing explanations.
    • Preparing reports and performing for a camera.

    For a child, those activities do not need to justify themselves as careers. Do argues for giving children room and materials to play, then watching what attracts them. The absence of an immediate financial test allows interests to become visible.

    The same concern sits alongside Raising Independent Creative Children: exploration needs space before adults demand a defensible professional plan. Kim names the missing condition directly: “There's no safety in the exploration.”

    That concern extends into her coaching work. She sees the need for safety as both a driver and an obstacle. A person wants a different future while also wanting protection from the uncertainty required to approach it.

    Kim eventually names a long-term ambition: hosting her own talk show. Her lifelong fascination with people, her current work in conversation, and her childhood broadcasting do not prove that outcome will happen.

    They do, however, belong to the same picture.

    What seemed like unrelated changes begins to look more coherent. Kim describes her choices as concentric circles becoming smaller, not disconnected circles scattered across a page. Her search is an attempt to narrow, even when it looks like switching gears from the outside.

    A direction becomes real through commitment

    Do's response is to move the ambition out of abstraction. A talk show needs a subject, guests, and a reason to exist alongside other shows. Wanting the role is the beginning of the decision, not its completion.

    He also challenges Kim on duration. Over the years he has known her, he has seen repeated changes of direction. From his perspective, switching too often prevents the accumulation required to become exceptional.

    Kim sees narrowing. Do sees the risk of restarting. The productive tension lies in distinguishing refinement from escape.

    A new direction can represent clearer understanding. It can also offer relief from the difficult, repetitive part of an earlier commitment. The conversation does not provide a neat formula for separating them, but it makes the cost of never deciding visible.

    Do asks what she can see herself doing for a year without changing gears. That horizon gives the ambition enough substance to shape decisions without pretending the entire future must be solved at once.

    His next recommendation is proximity. Someone who wants to host a show should get near people making shows. He suggests Los Angeles and work around that production environment as one possible route.

    The principle is broader than relocation. “You can learn so much by watching people work,” Do says. Access to practitioners replaces an imagined profession with observable activity.

    Kim identifies another benefit: meeting people who have done the work makes the possibility feel real. The gain is not only technical knowledge. It is evidence that the desired life exists outside private fantasy.

    Do describes feeling energized in a room of fellow creators at a YouTube event. Being surrounded by people doing related work challenged the isolation of pursuing an idea alone. The experience mattered because it placed his own efforts in a visible community.

    The practical direction emerging from the conversation is deliberately grounded. It combines self-observation, exposure to the work, and help interpreting the evidence.

    • Revisit activities that brought joy before earning potential dominated the decision.
    • Compare those interests with existing strengths and the demands of the work.
    • Define the work to pursue over the next year.
    • Get close enough to practitioners to observe what the role requires.
    • Ask a trusted, more experienced person to help connect the evidence.

    That final step is not a request for permission. It recognizes that someone absorbed in their own uncertainty can struggle to interpret patterns another person can see. The related subject of The Importance Of Mentors belongs here, at the point where reflection needs an informed outside perspective.

    Do closes without insisting everyone must abandon their current life. Someone can accept the choices already made and commit to them fully. The problem is remaining dissatisfied while indefinitely postponing an honest decision.

    Kim wants the conversation to leave people with hope. Do wants that hope attached to action, sustained attention, and a willingness to stop treating every possibility as equally available forever.

    The next year does not need a perfect prediction. It needs a direction that receives more than leftover attention.

    Keeping every door open is not the same as going anywhere.

    TRANSCRIPT

    Doing stuff is not equal working, because we're always doing something, but we're not always working, especially when we're not always working on things that matter. So when we say we're going to take a longer break or check our social feeds, we confuse that activity and we convince ourselves that's actually going to generate something for us. And unless you're in the media business, unless it's your job to respond to comments and to look at what's going on and to write reports on trends that you're noticing or to provide reports on user sentiment, then that's not really working. That's something else. It's a distraction. It's an avoidance strategy, I think. So then let's get into this. What do you consider work and all the stuff you do every day? In the stuff that I do. And we have to kind of caveat by what is it that I do? And for some people, they'd be really confused, like, oh, I just thought you host podcasts and YouTube videos. Well, that's part of the job. So we're a media company, primarily with an educational arm to it that sells products, educational products in the form of standalone study at your own pace things to digital downloads like booklets and guides and templates to group coaching. And then the higher touch stuff is like one on one coaching and public speaking and workshops. Now, the things that I do that I would consider work, the recording of this piece of content is work for me. So all the prep that goes into it, all the stuff that has to be done afterwards, that's work. Checking in our channels, seeing how things are performing, responding to comments, that's work. Because it needs to be done. And if I don't do it, somebody else will do it, but I'm going to be the person to do it. And then there's the actual coaching calls themselves, the one on ones, the group coaching. Sometimes requires pre -work. Sometimes it doesn't just I just show up and I'm good to go. I'll give you an example. If you're a product manager, your probably highest priority is the ship. products and features on time. actual coaching calls themselves, the one -on -ones, the group coaching, sometimes requires pre -work. Sometimes it doesn't just, I just show up and I'm good to go. I'll give you the example. If you're a product manager, your probably highest priority is the ship. products and features on time. That's what your highest priority is. You could probably care less about what the other people in the company are doing. So you can see like depending on who you ask and what their priorities are, they're gonna have a very different answer and take on this. I think this is kind of the crux of it though, right? We have, I don't know how many millions of people who have a job. It's questionable whether, what percentage of them are actually delivering the results that the people at the top want. And yet on the one side, on the worker side, they would say that they are doing work. Yeah. It's a classic management of labor disagreement or dispute. And there are lots and lots of people out there, quote unquote, working, making effort, but actually not moving the needle. And this is a responsibility that's shared by all. And basically, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. If they don't do the work that's productive and moving the needle, then eventually the company will go sideways. The biggest problem, I think, to this is, we try to measure people's time. We try to measure people's energy, but we very rarely measure outcomes. In your life, you'll probably have three problems to follow you everywhere you go if you're an entrepreneur. Lead gen, sales, and delivery. And they're kind of tied together. So you already know that I'm wanting to build a personal brand. I'm wanting to put my ideas and my thoughts out there. For me, that feels like work. But sometimes I question it. You know, I have days where I question this because it's like, is that actually adding to lead gen in my business? And I know that's debatable. I've had clients where when I ask them, okay, so what made you reach out to me? And then what made you hire me instead of the other coaches you were looking at? And they'll literally say that they did some major cyber stalking. They went through my social profiles. They read posts. So I have days where I feel discouraged. I feel like I didn't really do any work. But then I have these small moments of maybe... what made you hire me instead of the other coaches you were looking at? And they'll literally say that they did some major cyber stalking. They went through my social profiles, they read posts. So I have days where I feel discouraged. I feel like I didn't really do any work, but then I have these small moments of maybe validation. It's like, oh, at least something happened. Something moved the needle, even if I didn't see it at that time. So I think earlier when you were talking about every business has the same three problems, lead gen sales and delivery. And you hit them in a particular order, I noticed. So first you're going to have a lead gen problem. And once you have that solved, you're going to have a sales problem. And then next is delivery. So I suppose it's up to us to correctly identify which stage we're at for the constraint. And I would say right now I'm back down to lead gen having sort of switched my business. So there's the focus. There's also the confidence aspect in terms of just making sure that I don't fall into the abyss of feeling woe is me or nothing I'm doing is working or even just the sheer question of how do I navigate this new landscape I'm trying to get into. So there's the whole like, here's how I'm feeling. And then maybe the last part is how do I actually make sure that I'm taking an objective look into how my business has been going so far and making sure that I pick out like surface what's been working. And then at least experiment with how do I do more of that and then see if it continues to work and maybe scale. You know what, you just reminded me of some random conversations I've had with a lot of different people. I have been relatively blessed in my life that I found something I like to do. And I was able to go and pursue that to the highest level in which I could pursue it at. And that thing is called design. I wanted to be a graphic designer. So I went to one of the best schools for graphic design to learn this and went to art center and I studied with some of the best professors and I graduated with what I thought was the best portfolio. And I got some like really good opportunities off the jump. So for 20 some odd years, I just worked in that space first to go to the highest level that I could to be featured in books, magazines, to win the awards, to work on the accounts and projects that we all dream of when we're in that space. And that singular focus has allowed. really good opportunities off the jump. So for 20 some odd years, I just worked in that space first to go to the highest level that I could, to be featured in books, magazines, to win the awards, to work on the accounts and projects that we all dream of when we're in that space. And that singular focus has allowed me to excel and to achieve whatever I think I needed to achieve so that I can, at least in my mind, say for a period of time, the work that we did, our stature in the industry was world -class, competitive in the world. Maybe not podium standard, but somewhere in the top 20. We're in there somewhere. And then we got to do that. So I have a question. Doesn't design have many different arms or branches you can go into? Certainly it does. And some of my friends went into those branches. Okay. So what about you? How many branches did you cover? Or are you saying you only did one? The umbrella term is called graphic design, but underneath that are several subdisciplines and you could pursue any of those things and feel like you are a graphic designer. So the one that a lot of people understand is identity design. So you're designing the marks, the business communication systems for an enterprise. And then there's editorial design. So anything for magazines and books, things like that, you can include book design in there. So you're dealing with vast amounts of copy and just depends on the schedule. Magazines, 30 days. Books, months, if not a year. So the turnaround is just a little bit different. And then there's something called entertainment design, which is marketing materials for movies and TV shows. So the one sheets, the posters, the billboards and things that support an entertainment property. I think those are the major categories. And there's a fourth one called packaging. And then there's probably like retail design, point of purchase display, signage, window display, systems within three -dimensional environments. And there's a lot more, but those are the general categories I can think of off the top of my head. There's one other one that I cannot not say, which is web design. So digital interface, user interface design, user experience design. Now, when I got out of school, web design wasn't a thing yet. It was interactive CD -ROM. Web was still relatively new. Motion design was relatively new. So those are two. the one that I cannot not say, which is web design. So digital interface, user interface design, user experience design. Now, when I got out of school, web design wasn't a thing yet. It was interactive CD -ROM. Web was still relatively new. Motion design was relatively new. So those are two emerging industries and fields that then started to gobble up all the design talent. So people saw that the decline of entertainment marketing materials was happening, and then they would move into the space. I moved into motion design. But I think year one and two of our business, we did every single thing that you could ask for. I literally designed a bunch of logos for whoever would ask. I would design identity systems. I would do motion design, meaning moving typography and graphics for mostly TV commercials. I probably did some product, like light product packaging design. So we dabbled in lots of different things, and I think we built a website or two. And then I realized by doing all these things, I was good at none of these things, and so I wanted to be good at something. And it became very apparent to me I needed to focus in. So we focused on emotion design. And so we pretty much, and the way the market works is pretty brilliant. If you don't actively work on acquiring clients, they don't actually call you. So it wasn't like we had to make a big announcement we're no longer doing this kind of work. We just focused on emotion design, and people just stopped calling us. Sometimes they would call us. I'm like, I don't do that work anymore. I'm sorry. And I would just focus on what it is I want to do. Now, if somebody is really astute, and they understand their industry really well, they would say, but Chris, motion design has a bunch of sub -design categories in there too. And I'm like, yes, it's true. So you can see, and this is where I'll cite Mr. Blair ends. It's like when you have a focus, a niche, it doesn't actually end. It's just the door that leads to more doors. But you can't just be sitting there thinking, I'm not going to go through any door because I'm afraid of committing to something. So how did you know it was motion design for you? Because as you know, I'm facing a challenge in trying to focus out on something, much like what you did here. Yeah. How did I know it was going to be motion design? I just looked at whatever I was most passionate about doing. So of all these industries and fields, this one presented the most challenge to me, the greatest opportunity, challenge and trying to focus out on something much like what you did here yeah i don't know it's going to be motion design i just looked at whatever i was most passionate about doing so of all these industries and fields this one presented the most challenge to me the greatest opportunity the most fun the thing that would light my soul on fire and also it was booming so it's easy like acquiring clients is not gonna be that hard because there's a lot of demand for this how do i know that because i was considered for jobs that i'm not qualified for and the amount of money that was being thrown around signaled to me quite clearly this is an economic opportunity so i'm not gonna put my head in the sand i'm gonna go for it it strikes me that your description lined up very closely with the icky guy for principles there yeah i want to have fun i want to be celebrated i want to make an s ton of money doing it so you try and look for those vectors and say like where's the overlap how did you know motion design was fun for you because 2d static design was boring because when i was in school i felt like i could do this for a long time but i've already figured out how to make things look good with type and i'm not even done with school yet so i'm going to need something that's going to challenge me yeah so i keep thinking back to this thing of you saw where the puck was going and you chose to go where it was going instead of where it was at so that's definitely one key piece it was something that you felt really passionate about it was something that sounds like it was actually intellectually stimulating for you versus 2d design and i keep thinking okay what about people who are in my position where we're sort of casting about and maybe i have a different problem from you because i feel like everything is fun so it's sort of like my compass is broken the needle is spinning in every direction hence the lack of focus yeah everything is fun i agree with you i have lots of fun doing lots of things but i have to be honest with myself can i be world class at doing this thing if i can't i'm not that interested in it i've told you many times before i don't play to play i play to win so if i don't see me winning in the future i don't play like i love volleyball i'm five foot eight i have limited hops and i'm old so these To be honest with myself, can I be world -class at doing this thing? If I can't, I'm not that interested in it. I've told you many times before, I don't play to play, I play to win. So if I don't see me winning in the future, I don't play. Like, I love volleyball. I'm 5 '8". I have limited hops. And I'm old. So these are problems. So I'm not going to sit there and say, well, I need to develop a career in volleyball. I'm just not that good. I'm not physically built for it. I love skateboarding. I don't have that gene where I'm going to go towards a 10 -foot flight of stairs and ollie off from the top thinking I'm going to be okay when I land. I don't have that. I have a pretty healthy fear response. I'm like, oh, I'm not going to do that because I can't afford to eat it and break an arm or a foot or something like that. And so the ones that are the very best have broken every bone in their body, attempting the impossible. And they sit there for hours at a time, jacked up shins, bruised, twisted ankles. Blown up foots, whatever, feet. And that's kind of what they do. So I look at it like, well, you want to be world -class at this? You want to do this for the next 10 to 20 years? If you do, then do it. And I'm not just reserving this for myself. I have asked my children the same question. The question in my mind, I think for most of the things that we want to do in life, or at least more than half the things we want to do in life, if we just spend enough time with a thing, we'll probably get good at it. So there's the question of, you can probably get good at a lot of the things that you're interested in. But I think first, the major hurdle to get over is to even figure out what it is you want to do. Yeah. I don't know if I agree with that though. I don't agree just because you decide to work on something, you can be really good. Some people are just not coordinated. Some people are vertically challenged. They're just not that tall. Some people don't think that fast on their feet. Some people have low emotional intelligence. And to try to say like, I'm going to be a person who works the crowd and can do this. You can, but you're overcoming a lot of obstacles and you can get there, but you've got your work cut out for you. I would rather say like, let's lean into the innate talents that you have, the latent talent that you already have. And let's build that up so that you have the highest possibility for success. You were talking about the latent talents. And the question in my mind was, but how do we ever figure out what those... but you've got your work cut out for you. I would rather say like, let's lean into the innate talents that you have, the latent talent that you already have and let's build that up so that you have the highest possibility for success. You were talking about the latent talents and the question in my mind was, but how do we ever figure out what those latent talents are? What would you recommend helping someone discover this latent talent that they could maybe go do something with? What I would do is I would ask people, what you enjoyed doing as a child because a lot of it's been repressed or suppressed and they're usually good indicators. If you enjoyed building things with your hands and you were told that that's no way to make a living, then you put that away. When you were younger and you enjoyed telling stories and making people laugh, maybe that's what you should have been doing. But then people said to you, stop being so goofy, stop talking all the time, you talk too much, then you'll put that away. So usually all the clues are there. They're just about you revisiting the past because before you were confused or made to feel less than, you kind of just pursue what came natural to you. That's what we're trying to do is help people find what was natural to them because if you tap into that, I think you have a distinct competitive advantage over others who don't. Like a lot of comics and actors, they were clams and they would always tell stories and they would gather on the family get -togethers for Thanksgiving, for Christmas or for whatever, Hanukkah, and they would try to make everyone laugh and they would do impersonations of an uncle or an auntie and everyone would laugh and they like that. They have the gift of bringing joy and laughter to other people and if they carry that into adulthood, they're probably the ones doing what they do. So going back to something else you said earlier too, because you said you would go back to what you enjoyed doing as a child and my first thought was, I didn't have anything like coaching as a child, but then maybe you already knew what I was thinking and you said, but maybe if you were told to stop talking and I was like, oh my gosh, that is literally the number one thing I've been told my entire life by my parents, my teachers, maybe even other kids, like stop talking so much and probably the second most thing my parents had always told me was stop asking so many goddamn questions. what I was thinking. And you said, but maybe if you were told to stop talking, and I was like, oh my gosh, that is literally the number one thing I've been told my entire life by my parents, my teachers, maybe even other kids, like stop talking so much. And probably the second most thing my parents had always told me was stop asking so many goddamn questions. And if you look at my life now, that is pretty much my entire job. I'm like a professional listener, but also a professional question asker. And I spend all of my time just talking to people and I love it. I have all of these memories surfacing about myself. I'm like, huh, maybe it actually makes sense now. So there's one, I remember this activity. My dad had a video camera and this is back in the 80s. So video camera was humongous. And he would give me the video camera and it actually had a tape in there. And then I would sit there, I would position the video camera. I would type up some sort of brief or report on the old fashioned typewriter, you know, the ones with the keys that's like clunk, clunk, clunk, you know, and I would make myself a report. And then I would sit in front of the video camera. I would roll film and then I would read the report like I was Connie Chung. So I just pretended to be like a broadcaster all the time. And so I remember, I think that was one of the points of disappointment for my father when I told him that I was switching away from being an English major in college to math. And he said, you're just trying to be like your brother, aren't you? And I was like, what? My brother didn't even cross my mind. I chose math because I thought I was good at it. I have a certain logic to my thinking that I think naturally kind of meshes with that. But then my dad's response was, you should be a journalist. And I was like, why dad? And he goes, because that's all you ever did as a child. You pretended to be a broadcaster, a journalist. And I was like, that's stupid, dad. I didn't understand why he was saying that. But I think by the time we had this conversation, I'm 18 or 19. And what was going through my mind was I didn't have the personality for it. That's how I perceived myself. So my idea, my observation. dead. I didn't understand why he was saying that. I think by the time we had this conversation, I'm 18 or 19. And what was going through my mind was I didn't have the personality for it. That's how I perceived myself. So my idea, my observation about revisiting your childhood, there's a lot there. So every time you do something because you think this is what I should be doing versus what you know you should be doing, that's where the problem is. So in my mind, I was constantly weighing like, is this something that I can actually make a living? Can I survive off of this thing? And I didn't have my parents really explain to me why choosing something only based on financial aspects was a really poor decision. It couldn't be the only parameter in your decision -making. Today, now I know, there's a reason why I say if you have no goals in life, then you're probably going to make money your goal because that's the most visible thing to you because you haven't been taught how to set goals. And I think in the course of our conversation today, earlier, you said you have to set a clear goal. What's your one year personally and professionally? And I was like, Chris, but that like even the setting of the goal is actually the hardest step for a lot of people. It's like, you got to know what you want. I don't mind the question, what do you want to do? It's not usually how it's asked. The way it's usually asked is what do you want to do when you grow up, which has a lot of implications. It may be you've internalized the second part to that question, but maybe a different question can be for children. Devoid of the need to make money, like if you're independently wealthy, what brings you most joy? What is that thing? And then to encourage children just to play, because in the play is where it's good. And all we have to do is just leave around a lot of instruments for them to play and just watch. Maybe there's no really wrong choice as long as you're coming into it with the energy of I'm here to explore and really discover myself. And that's one of those parts that I think we as parents or as adults, we don't instill enough of that in kids today. There's no safety in the exploration. Maybe that's why I have a job. as long as you're coming into it with the energy of I'm here to explore and really discover myself. And that's one of those parts that I think we as parents or as adults, we don't instill enough of that in kids today. There's no safety in the exploration. Maybe that's why I have a job. Maybe that's why I have clients because the need for safety tends to be one of the primary drivers, but also the blockers for wherever it is they want to go. I have to ask you this question, the question you've already mentioned. What do you see yourself doing in a year that you're not going to switch gears on? Because all I've seen you do in the years in which I've known you switching gears all the time. So the problem with switching gears all the time is that you can never get to that state of being world -class. Well, as you know, I've been struggling to answer this question. And for me, it feels like I keep drawing circles that grow smaller and smaller. They are concentric. So they're not like, here's a circle over here. And then here's a totally different circle over there. It is narrowing in. And where I'm at so far is it's got to be something around people that has been my number one fascination my entire life for as long as I can remember, even as a child. But then if you ask myself, or if you ask me, right, what's my long -term vision, and I've already told you this, I would kill for the opportunity to have my own talk show one day. So if you want to be a host to a show, you have to figure out what kind of show you want to have, who's going to show up, what makes you unique and different. And you can start to design your life around that. But here's the question I have for you. It's less true this day today than it was before, but are you in a place where lots of people like you are doing what you do so you can be surrounded by them? So if I wanted to be a talk show host, I would move to Los Angeles and I would get a job somewhere when they're hosting these kinds of shows, because you can learn so much by watching people work. And that's why I think if you want to be this person that you're talking about, you need to be around people that are already doing it to whatever level which you can get access to. That is very true. Because when you're a child, but not even as a child, even as an adult. You can learn so much by watching people work. And that's why I think if you want to be this person that you're talking about, you need to be around people that are already doing it to whatever level which you can get access to. That is very true. Because when you're a child, but not even as a child, even as an adult, you only see what you see up to that point. Which is not very much. Yeah. And I think beyond just seeing the nuts and bolts of how these things work, it's like you get something so much more important, which is to see that it can be done because you've met people who have done it. So then that gives you the hope that it could be true for you too. I just got back from Made on YouTube, traveling to New York, and they have 40 creators there. Marques Brownlee, Mark Rober, and they have other name people there. I'm like, dang, everybody here is doing something important. And they're showing highlight reels and clips and things that their general community have made. I don't really participate in this world, but I felt very inspired that 39 other people who do what I do at different levels of success and commitment, they're in this room. And I just felt so energized. When you're around your people, you feel that way. Because otherwise, you're on a deserted island just thinking about your crazy idea. Jo, I want to wrap this up. How do we end this thing? I mean, there's two ways. And the first thought that came into my mind was, what's the one feeling we want people to take away from our conversation? For me, it's hope. Some level of feeling inspired that you can actually go do what it is you want to do. There are no wrong answers. So stop trying to be the student in the school room with a teacher where you're afraid of being wrong. There are no wrong answers. But then the other thought that came to my mind was, your brand is all about hard truths, gently spoken. So then what's the hard truth in this episode for people? Here's the thing. Life already tells you exactly whether you're moving in the right or wrong direction. Because if you wake up every day dreading the day, looking forward towards the end of the week, and Monday is the most horrible day for you. And if you woke up one day and you said to yourself, is this the life that my younger self dreamt of? people. Here's the thing. Life already tells you exactly whether you're moving in the right or wrong direction. Because if you wake up every day dreading the day, looking forward towards the end of the week, and Monday is the most horrible day for you. And if you woke up one day and you said to yourself, is this the life that my younger self dreamt of having? And if the answer is not emphatic, yes, then the answer is no, it's not. And you have to make a decision. You can say, you know what? These are the cards I was dealt. I made the best of it. I'm going to be 100 % committed to this. And there's no problem whatsoever. But if you're of the other type, the type was like, yeah, I'm not feeling this. And I've been not feeling this for a very long time. I just have not given myself permission. I say to you, do not waste another minute, day, week, month sitting on this thing. You have to sit there and get in alignment with yourself and do the exercise of revisiting your younger self and travel through time in your mind to think about all the things that gave you so much joy without the concern of making money. Because if you pursue the things that you're very passionate about, the stuff that energizes you, you will have a distinct competitive advantage over everyone else. The trick in all of this is probably bring that information to someone who's a little bit wiser, more accomplished in their life and career and say, help me make sense of this pile of stuff that I'm interested in. Is there a better career that's more aligned with my higher self that I can pursue and try to figure that out? It's not something that you can do easily or that you can do alone. So this is where I highly recommend you reaching out to someone you like, you respect and trust explicitly because they're going to tell you to do something that's going to sound very strange to you. And if you stay in that pocket for long enough and you put in the work, I think you start to move yourself towards the things that you were meant to do in this lifetime. And life is short, so don't waste another day. That's my hard truth. Hopefully it was gentliest told. I would say that was gentler than a lot of your other messages. This one has to be gentle because if I beat people down, they won't do anything. They'll just feel bad about themselves.
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    “Doing stuff is not equal working, because we're always doing something, but we're not always working”

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