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    Podcast 13 min read

    Personal Brand vs Reputation w/ Matt Essam

    with Matt Essam

    Chris Do and Matt Essam separate personal branding from reputation, income, and the pressure to become famous.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · April 22, 2026

    A good reputation is not the finish line

    Being trusted is not the same as being known. Being known is not the same as being paid. Matt Essam, a coach for The Futur community and a former graphic designer, presses Chris Do on these distinctions from a practical position: he works in coaching and consulting, and wants to understand what a personal brand would actually change.

    Essam is not looking for another reason to publish. Creating content interests him. So do teaching, helping people, and discovering how more of his personality can enter his work. What troubles him is the apparent entrance fee: becoming a public figure before those activities count as success.

    That concern gives the conversation its tension. Personal branding sounds attractive when described through opportunity and impact. It sounds considerably less attractive when the conditions include years of public effort, uncertain returns, and an elusive quality that not everyone possesses.

    Do begins by separating two ideas often treated as interchangeable. Everyone has a reputation. A personal brand extends beyond familiar circles. The first develops through ordinary contact. The second travels farther than the relationships that originally produced it.

    A barista can have an impression of a customer. Colleagues, relatives, and friends can describe the same person differently. Taken together, those judgments form a reputation, even when the person has never published a thought or deliberately cultivated visibility.

    Do's imagined test is to gather those impressions and look for the consistent middle. An isolated description of extraordinary generosity would not define the person. Neither would one unusually hostile assessment. The useful signal is the judgment that keeps recurring.

    “Not everyone has a personal brand,” Do says.

    For him, the distinction appears when recognition reaches beyond someone's immediate and secondary circles. People who have not worked with that person begin to associate the name with something. The impression no longer needs a personal introduction to circulate.

    This is a working distinction, not a precise numerical threshold. Do does not identify a follower count at which reputation becomes brand. His argument concerns the distance an association can travel and the consistency with which strangers understand it.

    That matters because it changes the assignment. Being respected by clients is valuable, but it is not identical to becoming recognizable outside the work those clients already buy. One can be sufficient for a business. The other can create possibilities beyond that business.

    Essam's skepticism therefore deserves more than encouragement. Before committing to visibility, he wants to know whether he is strengthening something he already has or building something meaningfully different. The answer begins with reach, but it cannot end with attention.

    Fame is not a business model

    Essam initially bundles three outcomes together: audience size, impact, and income. The bundle is understandable. A visible educator appears to have all three, making public recognition look like the prerequisite for meaningful work and a strong business.

    Do refuses that equation. His position is that wealth and recognition are separate variables. Someone can operate a highly successful business without becoming publicly recognizable. Someone else can be widely known while struggling financially.

    Those are possibilities, not evidence that visibility never affects earnings. The narrower point is more useful: neither outcome proves the other. Recognition does not establish profitability, and profitability does not establish a personal brand.

    A personal brand is not a prerequisite for a profitable business.

    Essam makes the question concrete by asking about building a seven-figure coaching and consulting business. Do considers it possible without a personal brand, although not necessarily as easy. The distinction between possible and easier prevents the argument from becoming an artificial choice between obscurity and success.

    It also leaves room for different ambitions. A person seeking a strong business has not automatically signed up for public recognition. A person seeking recognition across industries is pursuing something beyond the successful delivery of an existing service.

    The discussion separates three ambitions that deserve separate consideration:

    • Income from work people already understand and purchase.
    • Impact through teaching, coaching, or helping others.
    • Recognition that creates access beyond an existing field.

    They can reinforce one another. They are not synonyms. Treating them as a single objective makes every content decision carry too much weight: a post becomes responsible for revenue, influence, self-expression, and future opportunity at once.

    The tension is captured in another Futur title, You Don't Need a Personal Brand. You Need an Offer. The distinction here is similarly important. Being known and having something worth purchasing are different problems, even when the same person must address both.

    Do's strongest commercial argument concerns what happens when the current work no longer fits. A business organized around a person's active delivery depends on that person continuing to deliver. A recognizable name can create another route into the next chapter.

    That does not turn a personal brand into automatic income. Do does not establish a mechanism that pays someone indefinitely for being recognizable. He describes a form of continuity: interest in the person can survive a change in what the person does.

    The question is therefore larger than whether content produces clients this month. It concerns how tightly future options remain attached to the current occupation. Essam is evaluating not only a marketing activity, but the kind of professional freedom that activity is supposed to create.

    The name that travels with the work

    Do's test for a personal brand moves beyond awareness. It asks whether recognition has consequences. Can a name make an unfamiliar product more desirable, open an unexpected door, or bring an audience into another field?

    The distinction is between attention that stays attached to a category and trust that travels with a person. Someone can be excellent at a particular service and still need to explain themselves from the beginning whenever they leave that service behind.

    A stronger personal brand, in Do's account, reduces that need to start over. It gives people a reason to investigate the next thing because they already recognize the person behind it. The earlier work becomes an introduction rather than a boundary.

    His merchandise example makes the mechanism tangible. A band produces music and live experiences. Fans also want objects carrying its identity. The appeal of a shirt is not limited to the fabric or the function of clothing; its association with the band is part of what someone wants to buy.

    The example does not establish manufacturing economics or guaranteed margins. Its purpose is to show that the underlying product and the meaning attached to it are different sources of value. A name can contribute something the unmarked object does not have.

    Essam sharpens Do's language here. Rather than describing the effect as an ability to print money, he reframes it as the ability to add value to an asset through the brand. The correction makes the claim less theatrical and more precise.

    Do also uses their own connection as evidence of recognition crossing boundaries. His earlier work included graphic design and commercials. Essam now works in coaching and consulting. Their conversation occupies territory beyond the original services that made Do useful to clients.

    The significance is not that the fields share nothing. It is that someone saw a connection and helped create an opportunity outside the original transaction. Other people can recognize applications for expertise that its owner has not actively pursued.

    “They're opening doors that you don't even know exists,” Do says.

    Access is the operative word. Being known before entering a room changes what must be established once inside it. The conversation can begin with an existing impression rather than a complete account of background, competence, and relevance.

    This makes the case for recognition more substantial than visibility for its own sake. The benefit is not simply a larger audience watching the same work. It is a wider set of people imagining where that work, judgment, or perspective belongs.

    For Essam, that distinction brings the decision closer to his actual ambitions. A broader reputation becomes interesting when it can support the kinds of helping and teaching he already values. Without that connection, public attention remains an outcome in search of a purpose.

    The price of becoming recognizable

    Once the advantages are clear, Essam asks for the disadvantages. Do does not offer a painless version. Building recognition takes sustained work, produces an uncertain return, and offers no assurance that the public will respond as hoped.

    His most useful description is also his least glamorous: “It's like writing a book forever.”

    The image strips away the fantasy of a finished branding exercise. A book normally has an ending. This kind of public work requires continued articulation, continued exposure, and repeated decisions about what deserves to be said.

    Do presents the costs in several forms:

    • Time taken from other work to build something publicly.
    • No guaranteed return on the effort invested.
    • No dependable deadline for recognition or opportunity.
    • The possibility that the intended public role does not fit.

    These are not minor qualifications beneath a promise of inevitable success. They are part of the decision itself. Someone considering visibility must evaluate an activity whose benefits are difficult to schedule and whose demands arrive before those benefits are certain.

    That uncertainty is precisely what unsettles Essam. Content, exploration, and impact all appeal to him. Questions about style, memorability, and having the right personal qualities make the same activity feel intimidating. He wants the substance without assuming that he must become a particular kind of public personality.

    The appeal and the resistance are not contradictory. They refer to different versions of the work. One involves expressing useful ideas more clearly. The other appears to involve meeting an external standard of charisma before those ideas deserve attention.

    The broader cost question also appears in The Futur's The Costs of Being Internet Famous. Here, Essam's concern is more immediate: whether the role being proposed is one he actually wants to inhabit.

    Do resists giving him complete certainty before action. His argument is that waiting for every answer can become its own form of delay. Some questions about fit will only become answerable after attempting the work and seeing what happens.

    But Essam makes an important distinction between avoiding a necessary task and deciding whether the task belongs in the business at all. Difficulty alone does not answer that second question. An intimidating activity still needs a reason to matter.

    This is the point at which personal branding stops being a straightforward marketing discussion. The disagreement concerns judgment: how to distinguish a meaningful discomfort from a commitment that does not serve the desired life.

    Neither a larger following nor a stronger posting habit resolves that tension. The objective has to become clear enough that the cost can be evaluated honestly. Otherwise, discipline risks becoming devotion to someone else's definition of progress.

    Resistance needs an interpretation

    Do treats Essam's repeated interest in the subject as significant. Their conversations about personal branding have continued across meetings in Sharjah and Dubai. From Do's perspective, the recurrence suggests something unresolved, not a subject Essam has genuinely dismissed.

    He interprets resistance as a possible sign of growth being avoided. Essam pushes back. He recognizes the feeling of knowing a business task matters and still resisting it. He does not yet place personal branding in that category.

    The distinction keeps the exchange honest. Do's interpretation is a belief about motivation, not proof of what Essam should do. Essam's objection protects the difference between being afraid of a desired outcome and remaining unconvinced that the outcome is desirable.

    Do then provides a personal story that explains why he reads resistance this way. As a teenager, he loved comic books and drew extensively. A family friend, Uncle Mark, noticed his ability and asked whether art and design were what he wanted to pursue.

    Do dismissed the suggestion. The obstacle, as he remembers it, was not a lack of interest. It was the belief that an artistic life would lead to financial hardship. He wanted the work but rejected the future he associated with it.

    That distinction matters more than the eventual outcome. The teenage dismissal sounded like a preference when it was actually a defense against an anticipated consequence. Refusing the option made the conflict temporarily easier to contain.

    Do later attended art school and worked in logo and identity design. His account gives the present conversation its emotional logic: an outside observer can sometimes identify an inclination before the person is ready to acknowledge it.

    The story belongs alongside the tension named in Living in the Dogma of your Parents. Here, however, Do does not describe a direct parental prohibition. He describes a social message about the arts and money that he had absorbed.

    His reading of Essam follows that pattern. Something attractive is being weighed against a threatening picture of what accepting it would require. Public recognition has become entangled with performance, uncertainty, and comparison to highly visible people.

    Essam is not asking to eliminate effort. He is asking to identify the outcome worth making the effort for. That is a materially different request from demanding a guarantee that nothing will go wrong.

    The conversation turns when Do describes his own desired life more simply: getting paid to help people. A stage, a workshop, a podcast, and a fireside conversation are different settings for the same underlying activity. Recognition is relevant because it helps that activity travel, not because recognition is the activity itself.

    A brand follows the work

    Essam asks whether a personal brand is necessary to live that kind of life. Do reverses the assumed sequence: “No, the personal brand is built because I'm doing that.”

    The statement resolves a problem the earlier criteria had intensified. If recognition is an entrance requirement, meaningful work appears to wait behind audience growth. If recognition develops through the work, teaching and helping can begin before public status arrives.

    The work can build the brand.

    That does not contradict the earlier distinction between reputation and wider recognition. It changes the relationship between cause and effect. A person can begin with the activity that matters while accepting that the reputation surrounding it will take time to travel.

    For Essam, the revised proposition is compelling. He wants to bring more of his qualities and skills into coaching and teaching. He wants greater fulfillment and greater impact in the lives of the people receiving that help. Those are outcomes he can recognize without borrowing another person's ambitions.

    His interest no longer depends on whether the result is a handful of additional followers or an enormous audience. Scale remains possible, but it is no longer the justification. The useful question is whether the public work expresses more of what makes his contribution distinctive.

    The distinction also gives Do's earlier brand criteria a more practical place. They can describe what recognition eventually enables, rather than functioning as admission requirements before someone publishes anything:

    • Recognition beyond the original field. People outside the existing industry know the person.
    • A name that adds value. Association with the person makes an offering more desirable.
    • Standing among peers. The person becomes widely recognized within the field.
    • Permission to change fields. People remain interested when the person moves into different work.

    These are Do's tests, not a universal certification system. They distinguish an ordinary reputation from the more expansive condition he calls a personal brand. No single publishing schedule or follower threshold is supplied as a substitute.

    The four tests also explain why the proposed benefit is larger than marketing the current service. A name that adds value, travels beyond an industry, and retains interest through change gives its owner room to evolve.

    But those outcomes cannot be reduced to an instruction to appear more impressive. Essam's breakthrough comes from making the work more personally meaningful, not from deciding to imitate the external characteristics of a famous creator.

    The practical order becomes clearer: identify the contribution, express it publicly, and improve how it is communicated. Recognition remains an outcome to observe. It no longer needs to become the identity the person performs in advance.

    Make the teaching worth following

    Audience size still matters in Do's account, but in a narrower role than Essam initially fears. He treats visible popularity as social proof, one of several shortcuts people use when deciding whether someone deserves attention.

    He places it alongside familiar credibility signals:

    • An award that suggests outside recognition.
    • A diploma that signals completed education.
    • A speaking credential that suggests someone has been selected to present.
    • An audience that shows other people already pay attention.

    These signals can influence an initial judgment. They do not explain the full substance of a person's contribution, and the conversation does not establish them as reliable measures of quality. Their role is to help an unfamiliar observer decide where to look.

    This gives audience size a function without making it the governing objective. Recognition can help work get considered. It cannot replace having something useful to communicate once consideration begins.

    Do's instruction is accordingly simple: “We focus on communicating our beliefs and sharing our teachings with the world.” The improvement he emphasizes is in that communication. Audience growth follows in his preferred sequence rather than directing every choice from the outset.

    The distinction is especially important because Essam begins with uncertainty about content. He wants to know what to share, how much to reveal, and what kind of material supports the right brand. The conversation does not produce a disclosure policy or a detailed editorial calendar.

    It provides a criterion instead: the material should carry the person's beliefs and teaching. Personal branding becomes less about supplying unrestricted access to private life and more about making a distinctive perspective understandable. The unresolved boundary questions should not be mistaken for answered ones.

    That starting point sits naturally beside Where To Start With Social Media. Here, the starting point is not a platform decision. It is the relationship between what someone values, what they can teach, and what they are willing to communicate consistently.

    For a creative or coach in Essam's position, the immediate decision is smaller than becoming famous. It is whether to make useful thinking public and accept the work of becoming clearer. That decision does not require certainty about every future opportunity.

    It does require distinguishing the work from its visible rewards. A follower count is not a teaching practice. A speaking invitation is not the reason the teaching matters. Recognition can make the work more portable, but the contribution still has to exist.

    Essam's resolution is not a promise to become another public figure. It is agreement to bring more of himself into work that already matters to him. The standard shifts from resembling someone recognizable to becoming more recognizable through a contribution that is genuinely his.

    Make the work identifiable before making the name unavoidable.

    When you attach your name to something, that thing becomes valuable and people will buy it. Like your name means something, okay? Again, it has to be outside of what you already do. Everyone has a personal reputation. Not everyone has a personal brand. My mom has a reputation. She ain't got a brand. Welcome back, everybody. This is episode two of this ongoing dialogue with Matt Essam. He's a friend and a person who coaches for the future community. We've been talking a lot about personal branding. So if you haven't done so, it's really important that you go listen to the previous episode. We'll include the link to that episode down below in the description. The reason why is because in episode one, we kind of set the general framework for understanding or having the proper mindset around building a personal brand. We went through probably more of what it isn't versus what it is. And so naturally, we've taken a short break here and we're back. So Matt has a lot of thoughts and questions. And so I hope to continue to dive down deeper into this. I think I would love to pick up the conversation around content because a lot of people, myself included, aren't 100 % clear on what content to be creating in order to build the right kind of personal brand, but also to have an impact at the same time. And also, I guess the other thing is like, how do you know where to draw the line between what to share and what not to share? I've always equated in my mind when you talk about personal branding or when I hear people talk about personal branding, it's like, oh, I have to be like a Hormosey or I have to be a Chris Doe or I have to be a Stephen Bartlett before I get any kind of level of success. So I guess just to start with, it's like picking up from where we left off. Can you just speak to audience size versus kind of impact and income and how personal brand... or I get any kind of level of success. So I guess just to start with, it's like picking up from where we left off. Can you just speak to audience size versus kind of impact and income and how personal brand is related to those three things? Yeah, let's break it down. I don't think there's any connection between audience size and income. Somebody could be the most unknown person to do $100 billion a year and we would never know about them and they'd be very successful, but we would kind of argue that they don't have a personal brand. So part of the personal brand is having the reputation that precedes you in life and on social. Now, everybody that knows you has an impression of you and even the barista at the coffee shop who sees you every once a day has an impression. He's kind, he's not kind, he's very curt and that's part of your brand. And if we were to somehow get the 100 people that know you, your family, your friends, your partner, your coworkers, and we kind of assess what they all think of you, we would get some sense of your brand. What we would do is we throw away the edge cases where people are like, he's super generous, but only two people have said that. Or he's a total a -hole, but only two people have said that. We kind of look at the thing in the middle. And that's you having your personal brand and everyone has something like that. But we won't call it personal brand, we just call it you have a reputation. It's not until this reputation exceeds your immediate primary and secondary circle of people that you know that we start to say like, you have a personal brand. Now, I'm going to borrow a little bit from Marty Neumeier, and I will, as often the case when we talk about branding, is when enough people come to a similar gut feeling about who you are, then you have a brand. And that's deliberately vague and nebulous because what is enough people? We don't know. But we know it when we know it, we can tell. And so when your reputation precedes you, people are talking about you when you're not in the room. Now, you could be the poorest person, by the way. You could be the poorest person, broke, living hand to mouth and have amazing personal brand. They're not connected. Conversely, you could be the most unknown person and be the richest mother effer in the world and have no personal brand. They're not connected concepts, and we have to decouple these ideas. So you could personal brand. There you go. There's two tables and i기에m borders. The poorest person, by the way, you could be the poorest person broke living hand to mouth and have amazing personal brand. They're not connected. Conversely, you could be the most unknown person, be the richest mother effer in the world and have no personal brand. They're not connected concepts and we have to decouple these ideas. So could personal brand and personal reputation be interchanged as in like they have the same meaning almost? Well, there has to be some differentiation because everyone has a personal reputation. Not everyone has a personal brand. My mom has a reputation. She ain't got a brand. I don't think you're wrong, but I think it would be useful for me to understand some distinctive characteristics or some distinctive elements between a reputation and a personal brand. Like if I had almost like a checklist. I have some for you because I've thought about this. Do people outside of your vertical or your industry know who you are? they different things or are they the same thing? Vertical slash industry, right? They're the same. They're interchangeable, I think. Okay. What are some of the others? The other thing is I'll broadly describe is this your ability to just print money. When you attach your name to something, that thing becomes valuable and people will buy it. Again, it has to be outside of what you already do. One of my favorite bands is called 21 Pilots. In 2024, I think they dropped Breach and it was the highest selling rock album of the year. And it reminded me of something. I went to their 21 Pilots store and they sell merch, of course, t -shirts and things. So they make music. They create a live experience for us. Merch transcends that because now I have some other version of that. By them applying their name, their brand assets to something, a t -shirt is $30. We know that the retail, not the retail, the manufactured price of that is probably like five or six bucks at most. At scale, it's even less. But they've created $25 of additional value because they've attached some version of their brand essence or brand assets onto that thing. So somebody outside your niche or outside your industry knows who you are, your ability to add value. Because like print money, I totally get, but it's more, it sounds, it's like it's more about your ability to add value. Because they've attached some version of their brand essence or brand assets onto that thing. So somebody outside your niche or outside your industry knows who you are. Your ability to add value, because like print money, I totally get, but it's more, it sounds like it's more about your ability to add value to an asset by just using your brand. Are there any more? The next criteria I think is you stand on top of the vertical that you're in, that you are not peerless, but you're at the top, the top five, top 3 % of the people doing what you do. So your personal reputation has exceeded that so that you've now become at least within your peers, a household name. Do you think somebody like me in the coaching and consulting space can build a seven figure business as easily as somebody who has a personal brand? Not as easily, but as possible. I know this is going to sound really weird and disconnected from reality. I know everybody, I apologize. I send all your hate letters to Matt after this. I'll give you his personal email. Because I believe that in this world with so many opportunities that we have, especially if you have some resources behind you, the ability to make between $100 ,000 and a million dollars a year is not as difficult as it used to be. So yes, for sure, you can do it. will not be as easy for you to do it. But there's something that's much bigger than what we're talking about here, which is what happens when Matt stops working in his life? Matt will make no more money. But I think number four, if you have a personal brand is can you jump verticals? So when you're done doing what you're doing, it no longer interests you because your personal brand is so strong. You're like, hey, guys, I'm going to do this thing now. It's not quite related to what I did before. And then the people are like, we're right there with you. Okay. So what are the advantages then of someone outside of my niche or my vertical or my industry knowing who I am or talking about me? Well, let's look at it. You're not a graphic designer, are you? No, I used to be. You don't make commercials for a living? No. Okay. So you and I are talking in your vertical that you're in and where I started talking about stuff, we're not in the same vertical. So some other person in between us said, hey, there might be some value here. but you're not a graphic designer, are you? No, I used to be. You don't make commercials for a living? No. Okay, so you and I are talking in your vertical that you're in and where I started talking about stuff, we're not in the same vertical. So some other person in between us said, hey, there might be some value here. And that's where new opportunities open up. So they're opening doors that you don't even know exists. That's the key. We're talking about opportunities and people connecting things for you. And having access. The other is just like, I know who you are before you walk into the room. Okay, what are some disadvantages of building a personal brand? Number one, it's a lot of work. It's going to be at least 10 to 15 % of your time to build something. It's like writing a book forever. There is no guarantee on return and investment. The payoff of any kind of benefit, it's nebulous at best, but it could be a year, it could be three years, it could be five, it could be seven, it could be forever. And there's number three, which is the most difficult thing for anybody to hear. You might not have it. Can you talk just a little bit about the role of like audience size and followers in relation to a personal brand? Because it seems like that's a core component. Yeah, there's some correlation there for sure. It's because it's social proof. And there's this line that I heard at a big creator meeting. They said social media is the new resume. And I believe that. So what's happening here is these are all heuristics. We see that you won an award. We see that you've got a diploma. We've seen that you are a TEDx speaker. And all those things build credibility because we're in a world where everyone's cynical. Everyone is very skeptical about whether or not you're the real deal or not. They're just looking for shorthand versions that don't have to think too much, like you're a person I should listen to or not. And they're making that decision like that. You search on YouTube and you see videos pop up. There's the one that's got 5 million views and the one that's got 5 ,000 views. You're like, well, let me watch the 5 ,000 view video. Very few people do that. I'm the sick individual who actually does that. I watched the one that doesn't have a lot of views and it's garbage. I've yet to see one where it's like, no, this is the superior video. And I don't know why it doesn't have the numbers. Because there is such a thing called group intelligence. I'm the sick individual who actually does that. I watched the one that doesn't have a lot of views and it's garbage. I've yet to see one where it's like, no, this is the superior video. And I don't know why I just have the numbers because there is such a thing called group intelligence. Statisticians know this. The group knows who's going to win. And what pillar, so if we're looking at all of the different parts of personal brand, what pillar or what part is the audience part and how much should we be focusing on that? Well, I don't think we focus on the audience. We focus on communicating our beliefs and sharing our teachings with the world. And we try to get better at that. And then the audience will fall in line. I don't know about anyone else listening, but I feel quite intimidated by the journey of building a personal brand based on what you've spoken about so far. And content excites me. Exploring who I am excites me. Having impact excites me. Like all of the things that I see people building a personal brand doing excites me. But when you move it onto the level of like, have you got the it factor? And what's like, you know, when we were first talking about it and you were telling me about like, dress sense and style and like, what do you want people to remember you for? And all that. Like when we get into that territory, for me, it kind of gets a little bit overwhelming and intimidating. Is there like a creative's personal brand that people listening to this could all get excited about because it has most of the benefits of personal brand without some of the downsides? We want so many guarantees, so much commitment. We want all the answers done before we even take step one. And sooner or later, you'll figure out, I'm not cut out for this. I don't want this or the world doesn't want this from me. And you can either adjust or you can say this is it. But I don't think we could sit here and like, well, the longer you delay doing the thing that you know you should be doing, even though it's painful to you, the longer you delay your progress. I agree with that. Apart from the sentence you said, knowing the thing that you should be doing. Expand, please. Because I don't know that I should be building a personal brand. Like, oh, you do know you should. You know why? It's the strongest resistance that you have. I believe this. The universe tells you what you should do. But we fight it, we fight it. Like the universe. knowing the thing that you should be doing. Expand, please. Because I don't know that I should be building a personal brand. Like, oh, you do know you should. You know why? It's the strongest resistance that you have. I believe this. The universe tells you what you should do. But we fight it, we fight it, we fight it. Like the universe at some point said, hey, you got to start a business. No, I'll just get a job. Or the universe told you you should read this book and you don't. You just delay, delay. And then you should write this book or you should go to this event and you don't. And that's how you know that's the thing you're supposed to be doing. Because the things that have no resistance require no challenge, no growth, no stretching. I'm going to push back a little bit on this. Push. Because I think the premise of what you're saying is right. I usually have this feeling where it's like, oh God, I know I should be doing this thing, but I have loads of resistance to it. I don't feel like that about personal branding. I feel like that about certain things in business, but I don't feel that about personal branding. And I think I'm still trying to decide, like, is it worth it? We can agree that there's resistance to doing this. Yes. And that's the first sign that this is what you should be doing. The reason why we're having this conversation is some part of your subconscious says, there must be something here for me to get into a conversation with Chris about this. And every single time we get together, Sharjah, Dubai, we're having the same freaking conversation. There's something there. So you might be seeing it from a lens of, God, some of these people are doing things. It's working out pretty well for them. And then the resistance is telling you, nah, this ain't going to work. So you and I, I'll bet you right now, it could be five years from now when you actually start. I don't know when it's going to start. But when you do it, I'll sit back there with you a little bit older, say, I told you. Because objectively, when you look at what's happening, you can see it. The person who's in the bubble can't figure it out. But I'm just telling you, I already know. I'm not trying to do this in a smug kind of way, but I already know. Move, you muppet! Alexa, traffic has me famished and furious. Remain calm and think of sushi. I can book a table nearby. Thanks, Alexa. Move! Shall I play that hangar management podcast again? Good idea, you cheeky... The all -new Alexa Plus gets you and gets things done. No, no, no. Alexa, traffic has me famished and furious. Remain calm and think of sushi. I can book a table nearby. Thanks, Alexa. Move! Shall I play that hangar management podcast again? Good idea, you cheeky... The all -new Alexa Plus gets you and gets things done. No, no, no, and I agree, and I appreciate that directness. I guess up until this point, I haven't ever felt like you've directly said to me, do you know what you need to do next, Matt? Like, you really just need to build a personal brand. Like, if I was going to focus on anything, it would just be that. I feel like they've always been curious conversations about, hey, I'm in Sharjah. Oh, interesting. How did that opportunity come about? And oh, this is pretty cool. And so it's been more like me working out, like, what else is Chris doing compared to me that give him these opportunities? And do I want these kind of opportunities? Like, is this what I'm really looking to optimize for? Is this really what I'm trying to build? I don't see my job as a teacher to convince you of anything. All I have to do is ask you questions and ask you to check in with yourself and see what makes the most sense and to point out where you're being inconsistent with your own logic. And then you decide. Because let's just be really honest and frank here. I don't give a flying F what you do. It's your life. It's your business. You get to do whatever you want. And if you become rich and famous, what does that got to do with me? It's got nothing to do with me. It's because you decided. So all I can do is ask you questions, get you to think Socratically, like, okay, I'm going to ask you these questions. Then you'll find out. And we'll see. So I tell you right now, the friends that I have that aspire to do what they want in their lives, it's almost always the same thing. I want you to do whatever the hell I want. you to pay an outrageous amount of money to do that in the time in which I want to do it. And I guarantee you it's not running your lifestyle business. For me, it's like, well, you know what? I get paid to help people. That's the life that I want. So sometimes it happens on the stage. Sometimes it's in a workshop. Sometimes it's on a pod, a fireside chat. I just get paid to help people because that lights me up. Do you believe you need a personal brand in order to do that? No, the personal brand is built because I'm doing that. That's the big ninja flip for you. Okay, well, in that case, I'm sold because in that case, it's just inevitable because that's what drives me too. And that's, I think, why we connected originally. because that lights me up. Do you believe you need a personal brand in order to do that? No, the personal brand is built because I'm doing that. That's the big ninja flip for you. Okay, well, in that case, I'm sold because in that case, it's just inevitable because that's what drives me too. And that's, I think, why we connected originally. I'll tell you something, right? When I was younger, I'm thinking I'm 16, 17 years old. I love to read comic books. I was drawing a lot. And people were like, oh, my classmates, my friends were like, you, you're really good. But I'm like, no, I'm never as good as the people that I'm looking at in the books. A family friend came by. His name is Mark. He's a white guy, Caucasian guy. And we called him Uncle Mark. And Uncle Mark's like, hey, kiddo, what do you want to do when you're done with school? Like, what are you going to do? And he goes, I see that you have a real talent for this. I don't know that much about what you do, but you're really good at art and design. Is this what you want to do? And you know what I was? really dismissive. Like, no, Uncle Mark, it's not what I want to do. He goes, is it a problem with your old man? Do you want me to talk to him? Because I know, you know, sometimes your parents won't let you do this kind of stuff. He was a very understanding person. And I'm like, no, no, no. But you know what I was thinking in my mind? I'm not going to make money doing this. I don't want to be poor. Because society at that point had told me, not directly, but if you want to have a good life, do not pursue the arts. That's a path towards suffering that I wasn't ready to accept. I knew it was truthful. That's why it hurts so much. And that's why I was so dismissive of it. Because I'm like, I know that's what I want to do. The child in me is like, I want, I'm screaming, please let me do that. But the adult in me is like, that's a path towards poverty and suffering. Now, surprise, surprise, I go to art school. I do logo design and I do identity design. And this is what I do now. I share that story because we all have that in us. I'll tell you, Matt, you need to do this thing because I see that in you. told me something, you've revealed a part of you. And you're like, no, Chris, I'm not going to do that. That's stupid. People will laugh. That's dumb. I don't see a future in this. I'm like, okay. But to each in their own time. I'm totally up for going on that journey. Like, this is what I'm talking about in terms of like selling the outcome or selling the benefit. Like, I got to know what I'm setting up for. If you're saying to me, this personal branding journey is really about discovering who you are, which is what you said at the beginning. But it's really about being able to bring more of yourself. I'm totally up for going on that journey. Like this is what I'm talking about in terms of like selling the outcome or selling the benefit. Like I got to know what I'm setting up for. If you're saying to me, this personal branding journey is really about discovering who you are, which is what you said at the beginning, but it's really about being able to bring more of yourself and your qualities and your skills into the way that you run your business and the people that you teach and the people that you coach so that you can get more fulfillment. So you can make more impact in those people's lives and find the thing that is your way of doing this thing. So it resonates with more people then sign me up. I don't care if that means I have an extra five followers or an extra 5 million followers. Like that makes no difference to me, but now I'm clear on what I'm signing up for. If that makes sense. Good. If you listen back to episode one, you'll be shocked to discover this is what we talk about, but this will be a real interesting. And if you follow me on social, you'll know I've said this, the more you, you are, the more you are. And people are like, what the hell did you just say? The more you, you are, the more you are. And so my philosophy, my take on this whole personal branding journey is to help you be more you. And this is not my phrase, but to be the USU you can be. And I even leave out all the other stuff so you can impact this, but it's just like, you know what? Tell me a person who doesn't want to be more themselves and I'm like, I got nothing for you. Do you know why I think these two episodes were so powerful for me at least, and hopefully the people listening is because what we just did is we just separated the signal from the noise. So on that note, Matt, we'll wrap up this episode. Thank you for being so vulnerable, so real, so argumentative, so stubborn in every other word I can imagine in there for poking holes in things and demanding clarification on things. And if you are like Matt, thank you for hanging in there with us, getting to the end of this episode. If you have questions, just reach out to me on social, drop me a link. And if you ever run to me in the streets, please don't be shy. I am. Say hello, and I'd be happy to say hello to you and take a picture with you or whatever. This is my life's work, so I'm never bothered by it. And on that note, thanks, Matt, for being here. Thanks for having me as always, Chris. a link and if you ever run to me in the streets please don't be shy i am say hello and i'd be happy to say hello to you and take a picture with you or whatever this is my life's work so i'm never bothered by it and on that note thanks matt for being here thanks for having me as always chris
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