Skip to content
    Podcast 13 min read

    Leading the Client Journey w/ Mikon van Gastel

    with Mikon van Gastel

    Mikon van Gastel and Chris Do examine how listening, participation, and trust turn creative work into partnership.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · May 13, 2026

    The Thank-You That Ends the Conversation

    A beautiful presentation can end with a rejection disguised as gratitude. Mikon van Gastel, who describes more than three decades in the creative business and his work building Sibling, has learned to distrust an especially enthusiastic thank-you. His perspective matters because it comes from both sides of creative leadership: making the work and maintaining the relationships that make the work possible.

    In conversation with Chris Do, van Gastel describes a pattern that unsettles the familiar definition of a successful pitch. The presentation looks impressive. The client acknowledges the effort. Everyone leaves on courteous terms, and the job goes elsewhere.

    His interpretation is blunt: sometimes the client is thanking the team because there will not be another opportunity.

    That is an observation from his experience, not a universal test for predicting a decision. Its usefulness lies in the distinction it exposes. Appreciation for a presentation is not the same as investment in an idea, and a room that offers no resistance is not necessarily a room that has been persuaded.

    For van Gastel, the more promising response is participation. Clients ask questions. They explain what happened when they tried something similar. They identify a concern, challenge an assumption, or begin discussing how an approach would work inside their business.

    Engagement matters more than applause.

    That distinction cuts against a habit Do recognizes in creative education. Students spend years sharpening their craft, then enter a workplace where the person leading the room is not always the strongest designer. The apparent mismatch becomes easier to understand when that person starts presenting ideas attached to substantial business decisions.

    The gap is not simply between good and bad work. It is between producing an idea and helping another person understand, evaluate, and support it.

    Van Gastel does not dismiss craft. He describes the investment designers make in their work as one of the privileges of the profession. But that investment also creates a blind spot: the details that demanded the most effort can become the details the designer assumes everyone else should care about.

    The client arrives with a different set of concerns.

    That difference is the starting point for this conversation, and the reason its advice extends beyond presentation technique. The central issue is not how to sound more impressive. It is how to stop treating the client's attention as a stage for demonstrating expertise and start treating it as an opportunity to understand the decision being made.

    A polished pitch can display competence without establishing that understanding. Van Gastel's experience suggests a harder standard: the work has to connect with the person responsible for saying yes, not simply satisfy the person proud to have made it.

    The Assignment Is Not the Whole Problem

    A brief tells a creative team what has been commissioned. It does not necessarily reveal everything that makes the commission difficult for the client. Van Gastel directs attention to what worries the person across the table, including concerns that sit outside the formal assignment.

    Those concerns are not distractions from the design problem. They help explain why certain parts of the design problem carry more weight than others.

    A designer can become absorbed in a frame, a poster, or a painstaking visual detail. The client can appreciate that effort and still be preoccupied with whether the broader campaign will accomplish its purpose. The conflict begins when either perspective is mistaken for the whole picture.

    “You have to really listen,” van Gastel says.

    His emphasis falls on repeated contact, not a single discovery conversation. Every call offers information. Every response adds context. In his account, the painful lessons often arrive after a lost opportunity, when he remembers something the client said and realizes he failed to recognize its significance.

    The information was available. The attention was elsewhere.

    This is a more demanding definition of listening than waiting politely for a turn to speak. It requires noticing which concerns recur, recognizing when a comment changes the meaning of the assignment, and allowing that information to influence the explanation of the work.

    The emphasis on responsiveness connects with the subject of The Futur's The Skill You Need To Win Clients That No One Talks About. In van Gastel's account, the practical challenge is especially clear: hearing a concern only becomes useful when it changes how the creative team proceeds.

    His description gives the team several places to direct its attention:

    • The worries the client names beyond the immediate deliverable.
    • The priorities repeated across calls and presentations.
    • The details that matter to the client, rather than only to the maker.
    • The comments that reveal why an otherwise attractive idea will be difficult to approve.

    This does not require pretending that every client comment is equally useful. It requires resisting the assumption that the creative team already knows which comments matter before understanding the circumstances behind them.

    Do frames the larger issue as the distance between practitioner and business leader. Technical ability can establish that someone is capable of making the work. Leadership requires making sense of why the work matters to the organization paying for it.

    That is why presentation problems cannot always be solved by improving slides. If the team has misunderstood the client's priorities, more elegant slides can make the misunderstanding look more expensive without making the proposal more persuasive.

    The correction starts earlier, in the ordinary conversations that precede the pitch. The strongest presentation is not necessarily the one with the most explanation. It is the one whose explanation reflects what the team actually heard.

    Participation Is a Design Decision

    Van Gastel's advice becomes concrete when he describes two clients with the same schedule. Both commission a project in the middle of January. Both expect a presentation in the middle of February. Their calendars match, but the working relationships they want can be entirely different.

    One client expects regular conversations throughout the month. Another prefers not to hear from the team until the work is ready. Applying the same process to both would confuse consistency with service.

    The right process depends on the client's desired involvement.

    For the client who wants to participate, disappearing until presentation day creates the wrong experience even if the eventual work is strong. Van Gastel describes weekly conversations, or more frequent contact when appropriate, as a way of bringing that client into the team.

    The frequency is not the principle. The invitation is.

    For the client who wants distance, the same volume of contact can become an unwanted demand. Trust, in that arrangement, means giving the creative team room to exercise its judgment. Respecting that preference is no less collaborative than maintaining a busy meeting schedule.

    The practical task is to establish the difference instead of guessing. Van Gastel urges creatives to ask questions and read the room. A client relationship should not depend on the client adopting the studio's preferred way of working without discussion.

    He connects this flexibility to Sibling's ability to work as part of a client's organization, including alongside an in-house agency. The aim, as he describes it, is to become part of the culture rather than remain a separate group handing over finished objects.

    That closeness is not merely about friendliness. It gives the relationship a different operating premise: the creative team is working with the client, not waiting for the client to stop interfering.

    Do challenges the adversarial version of creative identity directly. Some creatives behave as though clients obstruct their art. He doubts that this attitude can sustain a career across decades, adding, “Very few people can pull that off.”

    The alternative is not creative surrender. It is making room for the person whose knowledge, responsibility, and approval are part of the assignment. The same distinction makes Crafting a Great Client Experience a useful companion subject: the experience of working together deserves deliberate attention alongside the finished work.

    Van Gastel carries that logic into the presentation itself. An hour-long meeting in which the creative team speaks for 59 minutes leaves almost no space for the client to contribute.

    A deck can be organized beautifully and still organize the client out of the conversation.

    Instead, he recommends leaving room for responses between sections or at other natural checkpoints. Those pauses give the team information while there is still time to respond to it. Participation becomes part of the presentation's structure, not a courtesy postponed until the final slide.

    The Useful Pitch Has Friction

    The question-and-answer period is often treated as the dangerous part of a pitch. It is where the rehearsed explanation ends and the team loses control of what happens next. Van Gastel's account reverses that hierarchy.

    The unscripted exchange is often where interest becomes visible.

    A client who brings up a previous attempt is offering information about the organization's history. A client who asks how something will work is testing the idea against actual conditions. Neither response guarantees a commission, but both provide more substance than a polite compliment.

    Discussion is evidence of involvement, not proof of failure.

    Van Gastel is careful about the difference between agreement and engagement. A productive conversation does not require the client to endorse every proposal. It requires enough investment for the client to examine the proposal rather than simply receive it.

    That is why his warning about excessive thanks should not become a superstition. The useful lesson is not to distrust manners. It is to distinguish between a response that closes the conversation and one that gives it somewhere to go.

    His presentation advice makes space for several kinds of exchange:

    • Questions that test whether the idea fits the client's needs.
    • Reactions that reveal what the team has not yet understood.
    • Past experiences that explain enthusiasm or resistance.
    • Back-and-forth discussion that shapes the rest of the presentation.

    Each exchange asks something of the presenter. The team has to be willing to respond rather than simply resume its script. Otherwise, a scheduled pause becomes another performance of listening instead of listening itself.

    There is also a distinction between showing process and making process useful. Explaining every creative decision can feel thorough to the maker while burying the client in details. The relevant question is whether an explanation helps the client evaluate the work, not whether it proves how much effort went into producing it.

    Van Gastel's approach asks the presenter to maintain direction without monopolizing the route. The team still has work to explain and a point of view to defend. It also has to recognize when new information changes what deserves emphasis.

    That combination is harder than either extreme. A monologue requires preparation but little adaptation. A completely unstructured conversation allows participation but can lose the work's logic. Leading the meeting means preserving the argument while allowing the client to influence how it unfolds.

    The objective is not a flawless recital.

    It is a conversation in which the client can see the idea clearly enough to question it, connect it to prior experience, and imagine taking responsibility for it. A presentation that creates that kind of discussion has accomplished something applause alone cannot establish.

    It has moved the work from something being shown to something being considered.

    New Formats Expose Old Habits

    The conversation's turn toward immersive work appears, at first, to move away from client relationships. Van Gastel's experience working with Sphere instead extends the same argument: effective creative leadership starts by understanding the conditions of the experience, not imposing a familiar solution on them.

    He contrasts a career shaped by rectangular screens with a setting he describes as putting the audience inside the story. His point is not simply that the image becomes larger. The relationship between the audience and the image changes.

    “You have to really design and tell the story with the medium in mind,” he says.

    His warning is against treating immersive work as conventional media enlarged. In his account of working with the venue, the expectations became more demanding as its team developed a clearer understanding of what worked. Familiar methods were not automatically suitable merely because they had succeeded elsewhere.

    The medium changes the storytelling problem.

    That creates a useful parallel with client collaboration. Just as one communication process cannot serve every client, one storytelling approach cannot serve every environment. Experience provides a starting point, but it cannot substitute for attention to the present conditions.

    Do introduces the temptation to overwhelm an audience with scale and technical spectacle. If a medium can do more, the creative team can mistake doing more for making a stronger experience. Van Gastel's response redirects the discussion toward participation and memory.

    “Grabbing attention is different than creating a memory,” he says.

    That distinction gives the technology a purpose beyond demonstrating itself. An immersive experience can place people within a story. An interactive experience can make their participation part of the story. In both cases, van Gastel emphasizes the shared experience people carry away.

    The related conversation Designing Moments: A New Approach to Event Entertainment offers a natural companion topic. Here, the important shift is from treating attention as the endpoint to asking what makes an experience memorable.

    The client implications follow directly. A team proposing an experience has to explain more than its visual ambition. It has to help the client imagine how the audience will encounter it, what participation means in that setting, and why the chosen format serves the idea.

    This is not an argument for using the newest medium whenever possible. It is an argument against letting a familiar deliverable determine the answer before the problem is understood.

    Van Gastel's enthusiasm for immersive work comes with that discipline. The opportunity is exciting precisely because it requires another way of thinking, not because it offers a bigger surface for the same habits.

    Expertise becomes more valuable when it includes the willingness to reconsider its own defaults.

    The Deliverable Is Only One Moment

    Van Gastel applies the same reasoning to the broader life of a campaign. A piece of work does not begin when its final file is delivered, and it does not necessarily end when its initial placement disappears. Social media, in his account, makes that continuing life especially important.

    He describes a sequence that includes the lead-up to the work, the work itself, and what follows. The implication for a creative business is substantial: presenting an isolated deliverable can leave the client to imagine the surrounding system alone.

    Creative work needs a life beyond delivery.

    That is why he repeatedly uses the idea of an ecosystem. A brand can appear on a shelf, on a screen, in social media, in a physical space, or through an activation. The strategic task is not to occupy every possible surface.

    It is to decide which surfaces matter.

    Van Gastel explicitly rejects the assumption that every brand needs to do everything. The team should help determine where the brand belongs, where investment makes sense, and how one experience can continue to produce useful material after the original event closes.

    His account identifies several considerations without turning them into a rigid formula:

    • Where the audience will encounter the work.
    • Which parts of the brand's ecosystem deserve investment.
    • How a physical experience connects with screen-based content.
    • What remains useful after the initial event or placement ends.

    This broadens the role of presentation. The team is not only explaining what something looks like. It is helping the client understand how the work unfolds over time and how different expressions belong together.

    The transition resembles the broader role change named in Moving from Makers to Entrepreneurs. Van Gastel's version is grounded in the assignment: creative leaders need to think about distribution and continuity, rather than treat those concerns as someone else's responsibility after approval.

    There is a restraint built into this argument. Thinking in systems does not justify making every proposal larger. A useful recommendation can identify which opportunities deserve attention and which do not fit the brand's needs.

    Without that restraint, ecosystem becomes another word for more deliverables.

    The deeper responsibility is to connect the recommendation to the client's goals. A team can produce an impressive range of assets while leaving unclear why those assets belong together. Van Gastel's emphasis is on helping the client imagine a coherent life for the work, not merely a longer inventory.

    That changes what a persuasive creative proposal contains. Alongside the central idea, it needs a credible account of where the idea lives, how people encounter it, and what happens after its first appearance.

    The work is still the centerpiece. It is no longer the whole picture.

    The Relationship Continues After Approval

    Van Gastel's most revealing business habit happens after the project. When he next sees a client, he asks how the work performed, whether it had an economic impact, and whether it met the goals the client had established.

    He says those questions often surprise people.

    The surprise matters more than any claim about how common the habit is. For van Gastel, asking demonstrates that his interest was not limited to making and delivering something. He remains interested in what the work was supposed to accomplish.

    Partnership includes caring about the result.

    That is his central explanation for longevity. When two ideas are equally strong, he believes clients are likely to choose the person they like or trust more. The relationship is not a substitute for quality; it becomes decisive when quality alone does not distinguish the options.

    His account of building Sibling gives that argument another dimension. Asked what work makes him proudest, he names the company, while explicitly sharing credit with his partners and everyone who works there. The organization itself becomes a creative achievement, not merely the structure surrounding individual projects.

    He also looks back on his two years at Cranbrook as a period of stripping away assumptions and discovering what drove him. The two experiences belong together: one concerns finding a personal direction, the other building something with other people.

    His continued interest in the business rests partly on that variety. He describes moving between human resources, creative direction, conversations with clients, and work with actors. He has not reduced his professional identity to one task that must remain unchanged.

    Longevity requires room to change.

    For the working creative, the practical implications of his conversation are less glamorous than a spectacular pitch, but more durable:

    • Establish the working relationship early. Ask how involved the client wants to be before setting the communication rhythm.
    • Build space for discussion into presentations rather than leaving only a final minute.
    • Connect creative explanations to the concerns revealed across client conversations.
    • Show how the work will live beyond its initial delivery.
    • Return to the client's original goals after the project and ask what happened.

    None of these actions requires abandoning a creative point of view. Each requires placing that point of view inside a relationship with someone who has different responsibilities, different pressures, and information the creative team does not possess.

    The standard is not whether the team impressed the room. It is whether the room became better equipped to make a decision, whether the process respected the people involved, and whether the work remained connected to its purpose.

    A thank-you can close a presentation. Responsibility for the result is what keeps the relationship open.

    You have to really listen. Every touchpoint with the client, every call you have with them, they give you so many hints. The one thing that I've also learned is when they profusely thank you at the end of the presentation, you're not winning the job. Really? No. What are they thanking you for then? Hi, I'm Mekon Van Gastel, and you're listening to The Future. What's up, everybody? My guest today is Mekon Van Gastel, and he's somebody that I've crossed paths with back in my days when I was running a motion design firm, but I don't think we ever got to talking. Mekon, do you know if we've ever talked or anything like that in person? Oh, my God, yes. This is very funny. So I came 30 years ago now. I came from Cranbrook, and I went to Imagine Air Forces. That was my first job out of grad school, and I was seriously drinking the Kool -Aid. I was drunk on Kool -Aid. I loved that company. I loved to work. I loved everything about it. And there were two people that I couldn't understand why they wouldn't want to work at Imaginary Forces, and that was Chris Doe and Michelle Doherty. So I caught you. I literally think maybe two or three nights you were still kind of making a little bit of extra money. You had already started blind, and I think you were just making a bit of coin late at night. And I don't even think we talked, because I was like, who are these two guys? Like, who do they think they are? They don't want to work here? Amazing. Like, weirdos. I think in school, especially on the undergraduate level, we're so focused on craft. And then when they get out of school and they enter into their workforce, they start to think an idea. Like, why is that person in charge of all of us? Some of them don't even have design backgrounds. Amazing. Like weirdos. I think in school, especially undergraduate level, we're so focused on craft. And then when they get out in school and they enter into their workforce, they start to think an idea like, why is that person in charge of all of us? Some of them don't even have design backgrounds. And then when you're in the room, when they're presenting and talking about ideas on million dollar campaigns, you start to understand there's a gap between where you are as a practitioner and where you are as a business owner, leader, communicator. Can you talk a little bit about that since you've been in this game for so long? I think as designers, we're so invested in what we do and what we make. And it's the beauty about being a designer. I mean, we're all lucky to be doing something we love. But when you're dealing with the client, you can't lose sight of what's important to them. And that goes beyond what the assignment is. It's about what keeps them up at night, what worries them, right? When you think about, I read a stat once, I'm sure you've heard this too, like the average duration of a CMO at a company is 18 months. 18 months. Just think about that. It takes about a year to get a campaign developed. I mean, that is one hell of a lot of pressure on an individual. So a lot of the details and the things that are really important to you as the designer, you slaved over, you got stuck on and they matter nothing to them. So you have to really listen very carefully. Every touch point with the client, every call you have with them, they give you so many hints. Like I've lost so many jobs that I listen, I think back at the call. And I'm like, my God, they mentioned that. Like, why didn't I cue in on that? Right. And then on top of that, so many students struggle to present their work. And again, they get lost in the details. They're nervous. It doesn't matter how good the idea is, how beautiful the frames are, or incredible the poster is. If you can't sell it, it's never going to see the light a day to day. But take us to school right now. Tell us one or two things that we can do to instantly up our pitch game. You need to be able to take a client. idea is how beautiful the frames are or incredible the poster is. If you can't sell it, it's never going to see the light of day. But take us to school right now. Tell us one or two things that we can do to instantly up our pitch game. You need to be able to take a client, grab them by the hand and lead them through whether it's your process or whether it's the work, how the work evolves over time. It's the lead up to the work. It's the work itself. And then it's also the follow -up after the work. That's the big change that I see now also. And social media has really done that, is that when we make something, it has a life after it was born. And social media allows you to amplify that. So now the process of the making the result, it's much more complicated than just like, okay, here it is. Take it. It's going to run for a month and see you later. It's much more complex than that. So in many ways, it's like you're building ecosystems rather than single deliverables. So I think from a sales perspective, however you decide to do it, take people onto a journey. And sometimes also like there's a client, you have to read the room and you have to ask the right questions and don't be shy about it. Some clients are only interested in the result and they really pay you and trust you for what you bring to the table, your craft, your knowledge, your experience. Other clients want to go through the process with you. They want to be part of it. If that client wants to be part of it, you have to bring them in. For example, that means instead of you going away, it's like, okay, you got the project on January 15th and then you don't talk to the client until February 15th because that's when the pitch is due. No, you talk to them every week, multiple times a week, whatever feels right for the process because they want to be part of the process and you invite them. They become part of the team. That's the thing with sibling that I feel that's in some ways kind of a unique selling point. Oh, you talk to them every week, multiple times a week, whatever feels right for the process, because they want to be part of the process and you invite them. They become part of the team. That's the thing with sibling that I feel that's in some ways kind of a unique selling point. It's like we've sort of a group of individuals that can become part of your company, whether it's like part of the in -house agency or the client direct. We become part of their culture. And by doing that, you gain a lot of trust. So I think taking people on a journey, telling a good story, but also understanding how involved the client wants to be. Because there are also clients that when they call you on the 15th of January and it's due on 15th of February, don't call me in between. But you have to figure that out. So I think those are the two things that I would say are helpful moving forward. I think a lot of creatives get in their own way and they think clients get in the way of their art and they have an adversarial relationship. I don't think you'd be doing this for multiple decades if that's your attitude. Very few people can pull that off. But also, Chris, to that point, how many times have you been in or seen a presentation where, let's say it's an hour, and the agency talks or the production company or whoever, the director, talks for 59 minutes? No. You have to, whether it's after each chapter or you have to make sure you leave room for them to give their input, react, weigh in, especially if you do it in a minute checkpoints. They give you so much information that allows you to lead the witness as you continue to go through your deck. The one thing that I've also learned is when they profusely thank you at the end of the presentation, you're not winning the job. Really? No. What are they thanking you for then? To thank you for all the hard work. Typically, our presentations are elaborate and impressive. It's not like, oh, well, the presentation was shit. And when they thank you so profusely, it means you're not going to speak to them again. So they're taking that time to thank you for all the hard work. What is a good sign that you're going to get the job? I think what makes you think you win the job is when they ask a lot of questions and they are really engaged. And it's not a... And when they thank you so profusely, it means you're not going to speak to them again. So they're taking that time to thank you for all the hard work. What is a good sign that you're going to get the job? I think what makes you think you win the job is when they ask a lot of questions and they're really engaged. And it's not about just agreeing on things, it's about discussing things. When they're like, okay, we like that, but we've done that in the past and this happened. Like whatever it may be, right? If it's a really engaging conversation with questions back and forth, that's a great sign. I want to ask you this question. I found out recently, I'm 54, by the way, I'm one year away from being a senior citizen. You and I are similar age. Yep, I'm 71. I can ask you this question. People coming in and out of this industry, it's a rough industry to be in. What has kept you going so long and relevant and viable? What do you attribute to the keys to longevity and success? I think for me, longevity. I mean, there's a lot of nuances to this answer. But at the end of the day, I think the thing I realized very quickly is that this is a people business. If two ideas are equal, they're going to go with the person they like the most or the person they trust the most. In the beginning of our careers, in the roaring 90s and early 2000s, you could be an a -hole as a creative director and as a director. They probably wanted you more because you were one. Now, those people don't work anymore. It's funny because at a certain point when the millennials were taking over and it was all about young people and diversity and all this good stuff, right? The business needed it. God knows it needed it. But for people our age, that was rough. All of a sudden, you weren't working anymore. Now, I actually think that experience wasn't valued. Everybody wanted the YouTube star, the guy that did this, the girl that did that. And I think experience is valued again. And I think at the end of the day, my focus has very much been about being a good partner. Whenever I... Now, I actually think that experience wasn't valued. Everybody wanted the YouTube star, the guy that did this, the girl that did that. And I think experience is valued again. And I think at the end of the day, my focus has very much been about being a good partner. Whenever I work on a project and the next time I see the clients, I ask them how the project went, if there was economic impact, if it met the goals that they set. They always stare at me like I'm from outer space. I don't think there's a lot of directors or creative directors that do that, I guess, in our side of the field. But it shows that you care. Like I said, it's a relationship business. It's about trust and mutual respect in my mind. Let's do a little shift here. I want to talk about new and emerging formats. I've not been to the sphere myself, but I understand it's a whole experience, it's this kind of 5D experience that people are talking about. Talk to us about that. In many ways, it's a dream come true. Working in something as immersive as the sphere is totally unique. We've grown up with the frame, whether it's a computer screen or a phone or a camera, whatever it may be. The frame increased in size, but it was always a frame. And sphere puts you in the middle of the story. There is no frame. It's frameless. You can't just take everything that you've learned in linear media and just put it up there and blow it up to 12K and hope for the best. You're A, doing the medium a total disservice, and B, actually, as sphere has evolved and sphere studios has become very smart about what works and what doesn't work, they won't even allow you to do that anymore. Like in the first year, you probably could have gotten away with it. The second year we worked with them, not allowed. You have to really design and tell the story with the medium in mind, which is thrilling. Obviously, like you said, it's 5D, right? So there's the image. It's pretty much like a 360 view. Resolution is incredible. not allowed. You have to really design and tell the story with the medium in mind, which is thrilling. Obviously, like you said, it's 5D, right? So there's the image. It's pretty much like a 360 view. Resolution is incredible. The seats fibrate. They can blow steam at you, rain. They can change the temperature if there's an image of fire. The speaker system is incredible. They can pinpoint the audio to the seat if they wanted to. So when you work there, you lean into that as much as you can. That's good to know. I mean, it can be very tempting to use this technology and then the scale of it and go overboard and kind of Michael Bay it. It's just too much of a good thing. I'm just curious about how you think about designing these experiences from a conceptual level. You mentioned like you would go to Burbank and test these things. The reason why I ask this question is this. I remember doing the pandemic. Theaters took a huge hit. No one can go out. And I think they're still recovering from that in that the screens at home have gotten bigger. The quality is good enough now. And movies are coming out really fast after their theatrical release. And so these kinds of immersive experiences offer us something that is tangibly very different than what you can get at home. You can't reproduce this at home unless you're a billionaire, I suppose. So do you think some of these in -person experiences are the antidote to the movement away from being in shared spaces and having a communal thing? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, especially with this next generation, that doesn't seem to be so driven by possessions. I want to own a car. I want to own a house. It's about experiences, lived experiences, shared experiences. It's funny because on the one hand, there's like a trend towards personal brands. There's this sort of individualistic thinking on one side, but I think it gets completely balanced out by a need and a desire for shared experiences. And that's what these venues offer. And it's more than just a movie, right? If it is an immersive thinking on one side, but I think it gets completely balanced out by a need and a desire for shared experiences. And that's what these venues offer. And it's more than just a movie, right? If it is an immersive experience, it's about that. If it's an interactive experience, it's about you participating, you become part of the story. That's all part of a joint experience that creates a memory. It's not just about grabbing attention. Grabbing attention is different than creating a memory. If you can create a memory, you're onto something. So I think that's what the difference is in the approach. I wanted to ask you a little bit about also another shift that I've noticed. And the reason why I got out of doing what I do is advertising. When we were growing up, you have some networks, but you weren't streaming everything and you couldn't skip all the commercials. And now commercials have become a nuisance. And so advertising has had to change a lot. Since you've been in it for three decades now, what are you seeing? Where is it going? Commercials still play a role in live events and award shows and stuff like that, right? And I think ultimately that will stay. And they're now making their way back onto streaming platforms because the stream platforms are getting so expensive that commercial -free, well, maybe I'll take a few commercials and pay half as much, right? So they are in some ways, actually, I feel making a comeback. But at the end of the day, yeah, I mean, I think you, as far as brands go and campaigns, I mean, it's, you can't just rely on the commercial. It's more about creating almost like ecosystems where as a brand, you really think about how you show up on the shelf, on a screen, in social, physical space, activation. Like you don't have to do all of it, but I think as a brand, you have to really think about what parts of the ecosystem are relevant to you or what you want to lean into, where you want to invest the money. The strategy side of the company, I think we need to start thinking about being smart. don't have to do all of it, but I think as a brand, you have to really think about what parts of the ecosystem are relevant to you or what you want to lean into, where you want to invest the money. The strategy side of the company, I think we need to start thinking about being smarter, about advising also where this media is going to play, how you can leverage the investment that you've made on this experience or that activation and how it can create longevity after the event closes. So I think creatives need to start thinking more about the delivery of the content and thinking about an ecosystem that plays out over time and help clients imagine that. We're coming to the end of our podcast together. Two questions. You've been in this business for 30 years plus. What's the next 30 years like for you? Are you doing this or are you doing something else? I have no hobbies. I love what I do. I do it all day long, nights, weekends. I wear a lot of different hats. One moment I'm wearing an HR hat, the next moment a creative director hat, the next moment I'm talking to clients or actors for a commercial. And then Joe's more the CCO of the company. I'm more the CEO of the company. Listen, I, at some point I want to work less, but I don't know. I think I'm fooling myself to think that I will ever stop. I don't think I ever will. That's so much of who I am. So hopefully there's, there's a way to continue to be relevant, whether it's more in a consulting kind of fashion, or I think, listen, the worst thing is when you lose interest in something or you got burnt out on something, then it is time to move on. But I think because I do so many things and I'm not afraid to pivot, I'm not bored by it yet. That's excellent. I mean, you talk about longevity and if you are in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing in this lifetime, there's no reason for you to stop. What you do might change a little bit, who you do it for and what side of the fence you're on, who knows. But so I asked you one question looking forward the next 30 years, I'm going to ask you my final question. And if you are in alignment with what you're supposed to be doing in this lifetime, there's no reason for you to stop. What you do might change a little bit, who you do it for and what side of the fence you're on. Who knows? So I asked you one question looking forward the next 30 years. I'm going to ask you my final question now, looking backwards. You're 99 years old. You're done with whatever you're doing. I think the days ahead of you are finite. And you're looking back. What are the two experiences that you've experienced, either have already experienced or in the future plan on experiencing, where they're going to really stick to you? Where you're like, wow, I'm so glad I was able to do that. When people ask me, what work are you the most proud of? It's actually the company. Building Sibling. I think that's my finest work. And that's not just me. That's obviously all my partners and every single person that works there. And I think the purest I've ever been is probably those two years at Cranbrook, where you strip yourself completely naked, unlearn everything you've learned, and really find yourself. And to invest two years in yourself, where you're just focused on what drives you, what you're interested in, what sets you up for your career path that follows. What a luxury and what a gift. I'm very, very grateful for both of those things. So I think it would be those two things. Well, Minkan, it's been a pleasure talking to you today. After a couple of false starts, I'm really glad that we're able to talk. Absolutely. We were able to connect, I think, 30 plus years of history and just like collapse it down to this moment. And it was real fun going down memory lane and also kind of seeing what the future of this industry looks like from a person who's actively involved in shaping it. So really nice talking to you. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity, Chris. And great to see you again.
    Download transcript

    Enjoyed this? There’s more where it came from.

    Get insights on creativity, business, and design from The Futur.

    You can unsubscribe anytime. By submitting, you agree to receive communications and to our Privacy Policy.

    “Very few people can pull that off.”

    — Chris Do

    Share