The Skill You Need To Win Clients That No One Talks About (but should)

Drigo will start with me and then I'll say what I need to say to the audience once he confirms we're actually live. Hard to grab. It's okay. >> Just don't knock it over. >> I know. That would be the worst worst scenario. >> Can you knock your triangle back for me? >> Yeah. Yep. >> Is this book out in the public already? >> Mhm. March 24th was launch. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Available on Amazon, everywhere you buy, find books. >> Yep. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And if people want to know. >> All right. Hey, what's up, future fam? And thanks for tuning in to this live stream once again. We're here in Santa Monica. This may be the final few days in which we're broadcasting live from Santa Monica offices because I'm setting up a Pasadena office, but I'm more than delighted to be talking to my good friend Nidhi Tewari, who I've known since the old clubhouse days. She's got a brand new book called Working Well, and it's out everywhere, available, and we're going to give you a couple of reasons why you want to pick up the book, and we're going to talk about those topics today. So, thanks for tuning in everybody. We're going to get on with the show. >> That was great. Thanks for having me. >> Thanks, Nidhi. Okay, so Nidhi, if somebody's like scrolling by on the feed and they hit upon this video, what are reasons why they would want to stick around and watch all of it? >> Because there is a skill that is underrated that very few people know, but if you leverage it properly, it can absolutely transform your business. It'll get you more clients. It'll build up your confidence, and it'll help you to relate much more effectively to everybody that you interact with. >> That sounds like a pretty good deal. It's a good deal. >> What else? >> What else? I mean, it's the skill is called attunement, and it's all about being able to get in tune with yourself and with other people. And I find that the biggest barrier that people face when they're trying to close a deal or they're trying to connect with somebody, >> they don't understand others. >> Okay, attunement is a complicated fancy word. What does it even mean? Attunement basically is our momentto- moment responsiveness to one another to my emerging needs and yours simultaneously. So it's basically the way that we're able to adapt to one another and get in sync with one another. >> Is this a natural state for us to be in or why do we have to work on this? >> Yeah, it is a natural state but it does take some effort. So, uh, what we found is that there are actually some MRIs that were done and looked at when people are in sync with each other, what actually happens. And it turns out that your neurons start firing together, your heart rate syncs up, your breathing gets in tune with each other, right? So like we literally on a biological level become synchronized and this leads to the emotional state of connectedness. >> Does this happen across sexes, genders? It's like man to man, man to woman, woman, woman woman to woman. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Across humans. >> Okay. We know this uh among women who get together and spend a lot of time together. Their menstrual cycles sync up to the alpha female. >> What is the male equivalent to that? >> I mean, it's uh an emotional experience, right, of bonding. So, think about like when you're hanging out with your bros and you're hitting up the bar or you're going out to a sporting event and everybody just feels super in sync with each other. You're rooting for the same team. You're cheersing the beers. It's the same type of experience. Uh maybe not on like that like period level of biological but in a different biological way. >> Okay. So I don't do any of those things. I don't drink. I don't go to the bar. I don't watch sports. I'm not cheersing anybody because I'm not drinking anything. >> Does that mean I'm left out of this whole bro connection? I hang out a lot with Drigo and a couple other couple of other dudes. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if I'm syncing up with them. Drigo, are we synced up together? >> What's that? your >> Yes, that's I didn't even hear what he said. >> He said your fashion, which is right on point. You guys do dress similarly, right? You have mentored him in terms of how he presents himself and you guys are in sync. >> I can't believe he brought this up. It's going to derail a whole conversation. We'll put a pin on that cuz I I don't think it's like working well fashion, right? >> It's much deeper than this. >> Okay, let me open up. I have a couple of questions I want to ask you about. Is that okay? >> Sure. >> All right. Oh, before we do that, in case somebody's tuning in like, "Who the heck is this woman? She sounds super smart, articulate. I like the ideas that she's sharing. The energy, the vibes are great. Who are you? >> Well, I work at the intersection of well-being and work culture. And I consult and speak to Fortune 500 companies on how to be able to improve work culture so that people connect better and work better together. >> I like that answer. It's super corporate. >> Thank you. >> Can we just go with like the human answer? Yeah. >> What the hell is that? What does that mean? The intersection of culture and wellbeing. You know, you asked for the the 30second pitch, right? Um, you know, I I want to rehumanize the workplace. That's really what it boils down to. I want people to be able to relate more effectively to one another. I want them to be able to feel in tune with one another. And I think that ultimately everything good in life comes a result comes as a result of our relationships. >> See, your second answer was more human than the first answer. It is. >> So, you rehumanized that answer. I like that. Drigo, did you have something you want to contribute? I thought you raised your hand for a reason. >> Okay. All right. He's just raising his hand. All right. So, let's get into it then. So, here's my first question. Why do so many talented creatives, there's a lot of creative people that are part of our community, so I think this is going to impact them. They struggle to close deals or to charge what they're worth and even though they believe that their work is genuinely good or even great, they wouldn't say that, but it's genuinely good. What's the big challenge here? The biggest challenge is our limiting beliefs and our past experiences because those form the lenses through which we navigate the world today. So I find a lot of creatives heard messaging earlier in their lives uh of like you're never going to make money doing this, right? Like are you sure that this is the right pathway for you to take? Not like only the top 1% of creatives can make it. And that same messaging then follows you into your negotiations, into your client relationships, into how you sell yourself. I also find that a lot of creatives are very afraid of rejection and perhaps that's even beyond creatives. I think that's a human experience where we don't put ourselves out there and we don't necessarily push for the highest rate um because we have been rejected in the past and it is a painful experience. Okay, so we have a live audience here in studio with us and several people who are tuning in live. How many of you identify as a creative person? I don't mean traditionally like art school, but as a creative person. >> Okay, that should be everybody quite literally. I did that on purpose. Okay, so I want to ask our audience to check in on what you're talking about to kind of see. So Nidhi proposed two things. The reason why we're stuck is a a belief system that we inherited from someone who told us that you're not going to succeed doing this thing. Does that ring true for some of you? Just nod or wink twice or give me Yeah. Okay. There's a lot of nods. A little surfer like, "Yeah, no, bro." And know. Okay. Okay. And Drigo, what about you? Did you hear this growing up? Like what you're going to do is not going to work out? >> Yeah, but I'm asking right now. He's not in he's he's in his uh focus moment. Okay. Yeah. >> So, the people who feel that, I'd love to hear your experience with who told you and how you think that's carried on into adulthood. >> Okay. Cuz I want to compare and contrast it to like how I think of the world and see like why this is what it is. Cuz I think if we can unpack this, this could be very valuable to a lot of people, not just traditional creatives. Okay. The people who were feel strongly about this, can we hear from you? I think it's you three. We'll leave Allan out of this. There's some familial bias there perhaps. The two ladies here. Yeah. Can we get You have the mic right here. Yeah. Go ahead and take it. My two other friends are like, "Not not quite." >> Mhm. >> Okay. Go ahead, >> Drigo. >> Yeah. No. See, see, I told you this was going to happen. >> Oh, is my Is it off? There we go. >> All right. We're good. >> Yeah. >> So, you want to >> What is your name again? >> Rea. Raina, >> you're interested in hearing kind of what shaped this notion that maybe I don't feel like my value is is front and center. Is that the question? Just so I >> I'll redirect. Okay. It's like a um court of law here. Allow me to redirect the witness here. Okay. There's this concept that belief systems, something you inherited from someone who meant something to you who said what you're going to do is not going to work out. >> And you said, "Yeah, that resonates with me." first where did and when and how did you hear this? >> I think this is speaking as a woman in the context where I was raised. I think that there were a lot of social things around me when I was like probably around 11 is the earliest memory where the indications were what you want to do may not be totally what you can do and there was a lot of emphasis on quite frankly having a family. So this idea of something that would even be a part of my career wasn't really on my radar because of the social environment I was in as a girl growing up. >> Did that environment is it like something you can pinpoint as to a person or a piece of literature like people say the government or them or they but then we can never pinpoint who those people are. Can you visualize these the they in this? >> I'd say school. >> School. I didn't see a lot of people like me who were interested in design, who were interested in the kind of career I was interested in. And so it was sort of like, well, do you just want to be a teacher or do you want to do something that where like other women had careers? So it felt like it was school and other adults. >> Okay. >> That were women. Yeah. >> Okay. >> At 11 in school, you already kind of knew that you wanted to have a career. And >> is this what you we're talking about? >> At 11, I I knew I was ambitious. Like I was really interested in doing things where I would work with other people, where I could create something that would inspire them. I didn't know what, but I always felt a little like, oh, maybe that's not possible for you. >> Okay. I think that's wonderful. I'm going to throw it back to Nidhi. So NI, get ready. So here's what I'm hearing from you. The environment that you were in mostly around school at around 11 years old, there weren't clear models, role models, or people who were as ambitious as you saw for yourself. So that wasn't clear whether they explicitly told you no or yes. The message was received and you were saying this may impact more women than men. Perhaps >> perhaps because you you had mentioned a little bit. Okay. So I'm going to throw it back to the doctor and doctor. >> The doctor um yeah we are socialized. I think this is a an experience that a lot of women go through is we're socialized to believe that we only have certain career paths that are appropriate. So I can share in my family growing up the only three career paths that were acceptable were doctor, lawyer or engineer which is very typical of the immigrant experience. And so when I decided to go and become a therapist, my parents were baffled. They were like completely befuddled by this decision because they were like, "Well, wait a minute. People that go to therapy are crazy. Why would you want to work with crazy people? is this which is not the appropriate thing to think or say but that's I'm just sharing what their mentality is and that you know is that going to be a money-making career like why would you switch off from premed which I did do for many years and so when I made that decision I had to really prove myself and I felt like it was proving doubly to myself that I was capable because that old messaging replayed frequently and also then proving to my parents that hey I can be successful uccessful in this and I will show you and I did. >> H okay. Similar. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> All right. So I I I don't want to check in with you, Nidi. I I say doctor, but you know the the thing is they wanted you to become a doctor. >> Yeah. >> Is is therapy or therapists the black sheep of the doctor tree? >> It is. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah, it is. >> It sounds really legit to me. >> It doesn't it? >> It is to most people. It's not it's not to an immigrant parent, right? To an immigrant parent, it's like what do you mean you're And my sister's a psychiatrist and she got flack, too. So, she is a medical doctor. She's a psychiatrist, but because it's mental health, it got labeled as is that really a doctor? And once again, same question. Why would you want to work with crazy people? Right? So even her in her situation she followed the correct path per outlined by my parents but still got a lot of push back from them. >> Okay. So that's number one this belief system. >> Yeah. >> Maybe we'll park on this and move to the second reason the fear of rejection which is I think universal. >> Yes. >> Right. So everybody Yes. We get some nods here. >> Something about rejection. What is it about someone saying no to you >> that hurts so much that you avoid hearing no? You know, there's a couple of pieces here. I think one of them is that the gap between expectations and reality is disappointment. So, when we go into, for example, a client meeting and we expect to close the deal and we don't win the deal, there is disappointment. And that feels like a rejection because it is a rejection. It hits on one of our primal fears of belonging and feeling like we matter. And so when we face rejection in that way, uh it then primes us to not be bold and take other opportunities that may present themselves. We tend to play it small to keep ourselves safe. >> You're writing. You're writing away. >> I am writing away. Okay. >> Love it. >> So disappointment lives between expectation and reality. >> Yes. >> That is also Robert McKe's definition of what makes a good story. M >> a subjective expectation versus objective reality. >> But that's what we try to create in stories. >> Yeah. >> So if it's good for creating stories, how come it's such so bad for us as a self story? >> Because in a story we have some distance, right? So you think about like there's no story, no uh no story, no conflict, right? That's I forgot who said that. >> No conflict, no story. Robert McKe. Yes. Yes. Exactly. No conflict, no story. It makes for a great story after the fact, but when you're going through it, it is like the dark knight of the soul. It's painful to feel rejected, especially when you face rejection repeatedly. If it's a once in a while type of thing, and and this is where the mindset shift has to happen, right? Is that, and I've had to work on this over the years, is you know, you will get inevitably rejected the more you put yourself out there for bigger and better opportunities. the more you stretch yourself out of your comfort zone, the more opportunity there is to be rejected because you are entering the arena where other people choose not to go. Um, but in those initial times where I experienced rejection, it was gut-wrenchingly painful and I would be lying if I said that it doesn't hurt still when you don't get something that you desire to get. >> May I pull apart the wound a little bit? >> Sure. >> Okay. Where is the earliest memory of rejection that hurt the most for you? >> When where? How? >> Yeah. And this is perfect because this is part of attunement is like noticing the past present connection. So for me the past present connection for rejection uh was actually you know I love my parents. We have a very different relationship now. But I felt rejected by my parents a lot. I was the black sheep of my family. I was even from a young age before career before any of that. I was the one who always pushed boundaries. I was the one that wanted to have a boyfriend. I wanted to be able to have a social life. Uh and my my parents both are very traditional Indian and they did not appreciate that. So my earliest rejections come from feeling like I don't belong even within my own family. >> Is there a specific example? >> Yeah, I can think of many. I mean there there >> give us a juicy one. >> Okay. >> Please. We're here to get real. Are we not a spot, right? >> Every time you say something I'm like I want concrete. Yeah, I got you. No problem. >> Yes, please. Thank you. >> Um, you know, there are times where, for example, like I remember coming home and wanting to be able to go out with friends and my I remember my dad so vividly saying to me, this was going to be like an evening outing, so we were going to be out till like 9 or 10. >> How old are you? >> This is maybe like 15. Um, so teenage years. Um, and I came home and I was like, "Dad, I really want to go out for this party. We're going to the movies. Core group of friends. They know them all." and he said, "No girl that no a girl with shame would never go out past 8:00 p.m." Basically saying, "You should be ashamed of yourself for wanting to be out with boys past 8:00 p.m." And he made it seem as though my uh my morality was even questioned, right? Like whether I was even a good person for asking for that. And that's just one of many many examples that I can think of where it was like oo like that's a very shameful shameridden experience. >> I hear you. That sounds more like asking for permission and being rejected for not getting permission to do something but not rejection of you as a person. I it feels like that from your description. But if I say, "Can I eat your apple pie?" And I'm like, "No." It's like, "Oh, you dismiss my whole being." It's a different thing. It's I have control >> in this relationship and you're asking me if I could do something. I just said no, I'm moving on with my life, but you've interpreted that as rejection of me as a as a person and doesn't have good values. >> It's I think it's different when somebody says to you no, you can't do this thing versus no and if you do this thing, you are a bad person. Okay, >> that's what he essentially was saying to me that you are a shameful person if for even asking this question for even thinking about going out with these boys. >> So he added more sauce to this than needed to be. So he's like the fact that you even asked me >> speaks about your moral character. >> Correct. >> So he turned a permission thing to a attack on character. >> Correct. >> Now had he just said no honey I just don't feel comfortable with you being around boys after that time. You never know what's going to happen. Everybody presents a good face and I've seen enough bad things in this world. I don't want that to happen for you. >> That would be very different. Very different experience. >> But then he wouldn't be an Indian immigrant parent. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> He'd be quite >> Yeah. But there are Indian parents that I have met that are very like kind. >> You can say it. >> Have to say that with my most white way of saying that. >> Fair. Fair enough. Maybe maybe more. um attuned >> maybe maybe >> okay it's real interesting well I think there are both strengths and weaknesses to lots of different cultures where there's a strength there's a weakness and where there's a weakness there's a strength >> I know growing up as an immigrant kid I never got to do anything >> and I did not like my parents for it but I didn't feel rejected >> but they didn't also shame me on top of that >> right >> or at least I blocked it out of my mind I don't recall any of that happening >> okay >> shame cuts really deeply like and I think rejection and shame are close cousins because when you when you feel rejected by somebody the interpretation the belief that develops as a result of that is that I don't matter or I'm not important or I'm not good enough. Those are the kinds of beliefs that come as a result of that type of rejection. And then those beliefs then create the experience the emotional experience of shame. And then we know shame is like from Bnee Brown's work is like a powerful driver, right? It like shuts us down. It puts us into like more of a freeze shutdown state than anything. >> Yeah. I think she has this term she may have coined called the shame gremlins. They come out. Y >> this is fascinating to me. >> Now I want to say this and I invite everyone to attack me. I really am serious about this. I don't imagine a lot of boys or men sitting around like talking about shame gremlins. I don't know why. I don't think that is a concept that men could have come up with. >> And and you had said uh rejection is shame or close cousins. I've been rejected many times, countless times. >> I don't remember that often that I felt shame with rejection. So I'd like to explore this. Maybe this is a gender dynamic. I'm not sure. uh in in your studies and your observations and your research, is this a universal thing or do women feel it more? Because I wonder if culturally you were set up to feel that rejection and link it to shame more than boys are. I'm just curious. >> It's possible. It's also, you know, I think endemic within uh like I I I can at least speak to my own cultural experience. Shame is a behavioral change agent in Indian culture. as in not only does your family shame you, the community also shames you and shame is actually used as a way to control. Um, now that also does happen in other cultures. I think shame is a a human emotion across the spectrum regardless of your cultural background. So to answer your question, I mean, is it a gendered thing? Perhaps, you know, I don't have the research on that. Um, but I do think men also experience shame. I think I definitely do. Like think about like um and this you may not relate to this situation but I'm sure some listeners can if they were ever rejected by a person that they were pursuing romantically right there's a a feeling of like whoa like I don't feel good enough like or if somebody cheats on you and there's infidelity there's a shame and an internalization that there must have been something that I did. If you get rejected from a promotion, uh sometimes people shame spiral about that and they're like, what could I have done differently? Like there must be something about me as a human, right? And one of Bnee Brown's key distinctions is that uh the difference between I made a mistake versus I am a mistake, right? And I think that the latter is where shame lives. >> This is wonderful. >> Yeah. >> Cool. Thank you. >> Is it capturing poslosives though? >> Sorry. >> Is it capturing the possives? Okay. Okay. Good. >> Great. Thanks, D. >> Are we good? Drigo, >> this is wonderful and I want to say why you share a perspective that I think a lot of people can relate to >> and it's the exact opposite of what I think. So, I would love to explore like how this works because this is like very foreign to me. I've been rejected a lot in relationships and everything else. I'll tell you what I think when I I I pursued girls in my life. I'm like, "No, you're not interested. >> You're lost. >> One day you'll recognize that that was a big mistake." >> And I really do think that and companies like, "Turn me down." Okay, I'll tell you what. This was a big moment in my life. I'm 17 years old. I applied to three universities. I got rejected out of all three. I wasn't like, "Oh my god, so much shame. Shame on my house. Shame on me." I'm like, you'll see. >> That seriously was my mindset. And you know what I told myself? Because I applied to art school and I I just >> so sad I don't have the letter cuz I would frame it, dip it in gold, and put it on the on the wall. It was a letter from UCLA. They're the only ones who wrote a real letter back to me. like somebody actually thoughtfully wrote something back and they said something like you demonstrate potential but you're just not ready for us and I was like oh we'll see about that. I said one day I'm going to go to the best school and I'm going to do wonderful things with my life and I'm going to bring this letter back out and say you see >> you had like a player and you turned me down. >> Yeah. >> So I just use that to motivate me. >> Right. I've I've I've been interested in girls who are like, "Nah, not right now." I'm like, "Well, maybe never then." >> You'll see. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, this brings me to something I heard Pastor Irwin McManis say. He was telling this really impassionate story about Buster Douglas beating Mike Tyson and then losing the championship. He said that some of us are wired with an operating system designed for failure. >> Some of us are wired with an operating system designed for success. And every time I hear something where someone experiences something I've experienced before, but their interpretation is a story about devaluing them, lowering their confidence, self-worth, feeling guilt, and shame, falling into the victim trap. I just say to them now, I believe you have an operating system designed for for failure. >> And they usually just accept it. >> And I'm like, I wouldn't have accepted that. If I said that to me, I'm like, f you. Let me tell you what I'm made of. So I'm curious based on your observations, the research, help me understand this because if you can crack this open, we've helped a lot of humans. >> Yeah. I mean I do I think that we are like it's a unchangeable thing. No. I think that I think that some of us do have experienced trauma that has wired us in a way where we see rejection as something that is a personal failure. And I think sometimes for many of us those messages are what reson they're what resound in our heads. Now that doesn't mean though and like the therapy world and the self-development world wouldn't exist if there wasn't a potential to be able to alter that, right? Uh and that's where we have to really challenge some of those narratives. Part of attunement is like getting in tune with yourself, right? recognizing these patterns, recognizing these past present connections, but it doesn't mean you have to be stuck there, right? That's that is I think the key uh shift that people need to make. And one of the easiest ways I talk about in the book is, you know, when you notice that you're having these disproportionate reactions. A mentor told me that if your reaction is hysterical, its roots are historical. Meaning that when you have a disproportionate selfin like self-imposed like I'm a failure, I'm terrible, I'm not good enough response, that is a disproportionate reaction to the rejection that you're facing. And its roots are in your past. So you need to just recognize what that might be. And once you notice that reaction, then you can identify the emotions. That's when we can name it to tame it, right? Just simply identifying, I'm feeling really ashamed right now. I'm disappointed. I feel let down. I feel um overwhelmed. Just naming and putting words to the emotions uh calms your nervous system down. Once you're able to calm the nervous system, then you can start to soothe. So, this is when you're going to be able to use breathing techniques, grounding techniques, etc. to get your your physiological state back into a calmer place. After that, you have to explore. So this is where we start to make meaning of what's happening and then talk about it with somebody, process it because when we're in relationship and when we can connect with other people, especially in those dark moments, it helps us to be able to not fall back into that spiral again. >> Okay, you you dropped a bunch of gems. I love the phraseology. Thank you. The the kids were what would they say? Dropping bars. >> Dropping the bars. >> Dropping bars. Like gold bars or musical bars. Either way, they're good. >> Yeah. Um, thank you. You you took an expression and you twisted in a way that I'm like, huh, got my head scratching. I thought you were going to take it somewhere else. Again, this is how like I think my brain must be broken. When you said if it's a hysterical reaction or what was the word you use? >> Yeah. If if your reaction is hysterical, >> if your reaction is hysterical, I thought you were going to say you should just laugh and move on. >> That's what I would do. Like that was ridiculously stupid. Not so. >> What a dumbass thing to even be thinking about. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. And then you say it's historical. Okay. That's also I think that's a clever way of saying your past present connection. Correct. So they're rooted ideas. We have different ways of remembering these things. >> Yes. >> You haven't answered my question though. >> What's the question? >> My question is why do people do this and why don't I think this way? >> I agree with you. It's changeable. As a teacher, I don't think you even have to be a therapist. As a teacher, coach, consultant, adviser, therapist, we must believe change is possible. >> Sure. >> And there's this idea called evolution. Not even in man from ape, but just old you versus new you. >> I believe that's very very possible. I'm just curious as to what the how >> doctor I have this problem. People tell me negative things, I can't hear it. >> Yeah. >> Help me understand that. >> Well, I mean, would you would you characterize yourself as somebody who is self-aware? >> Yes. >> Okay. Would you characterize yourself as somebody who's traumatized like has gone through significant trauma in your past? >> Yes, but I'm not traumatized by it. >> Okay. So, but that is different, right, than being traumatized and not necessarily having processed through in whatever form that takes the past trauma right? Um I I would just like I think I've experienced what one what what a person would call traumatic but in processes trauma. >> Mhm. >> And I'm okay with that. Yeah. >> So I don't live in that place. >> Okay. Okay. >> Well, and not everybody respond you could you could have two people that go through the same experience and one responds differently than the other. One comes across comes away with PTSD, the other doesn't. Right. Um science is still figuring that one out of like what it what it is and there's a lot of nurtured nature that goes into that. Anyways, like so there are some key differences though, right? The people that get stuck in it tend to be the avoidant ones. So they're not necessarily the most self-aware. They're the ones that tend to move away from discomfort, right? So there the self-examination piece just isn't there. And in order to overcome something, do you not need to see it fully? Do you not need to understand it fully? >> 100%. I'm in agreement. >> Yeah. So, so there is your key. That's the answer to your question. That's the key differentiator is that and that's what I'm really trying to do with this book is to make that process approachable. I want people to be able to not to lean into the discomfort instead of leaning away because the more that you're able to approach that the discomfort uh to move away from avoidance, the more fulfilled your life will be. the more in tune with yourself and others, the more you'll magnetize the things that you desire because you're not going to be living in a traumatized place any longer, right? But it's when people avoid, it's when people tend to uh lean away instead of leaning in that those same cycles perpetuate and that's where we see people get stuck and feel trapped. So, I think that that is your that what makes you distinct from other people. And that's not to say that they can't get there, but they have to make a conscious choice to be like, I'm not running away from the hard [ __ ] and I'm going to face it. Am I allowed to curse? Sorry. >> You just did. >> I just did. Sorry if I'm not allowed to. I'm I uh am not going to run away from the hard stuff and I'm going to lean into it and I'm going to face it. >> Okay. uh to be super self-aware. I'm not going to shame you for dropping an Sbomb. You could say that what the f you want. It doesn't matter. It's your show. Yep. We'll have to just put a little advisory warning for it. >> Okay. Just edit out the the line former. I reset it with stop. >> No. If it makes you happy, please say it. If that's how you like to communicate, please say it. Okay. I think we're getting to some place here. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Okay. A if you're not self-aware, you're stuck. Step one. >> Correct. This is where outside objective perspective, someone who's a little bit more observant, can describe it a little bit better, help you to see into your shadow, your blind spots. That's a good start. >> Yeah. >> And so many people are so afraid of even looking in that they can't even begin that process. But if you want to be stuck the rest of your life, >> be my guest. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Number two, and they're it's connected to number three, I believe, is avoidant. So, I feel uncomfortable, discomfort, therefore I'm just gonna pretend like it didn't happen. I don't want to look at it at all. So, all I think all three are really deeply connected to each other. It's like a chain reaction. >> I'm not used to feeling uncomfortable. It gives me the ick. >> Therefore, I'm not going to look into it. >> Yeah. >> And I have friends that are watching probably right now, and I'm not talking about you. I'm just talking about people just like you. Is they want to gloss over anything that's horrible. Yeah, >> quite literally. There was a gentleman who used to work for me >> and I asked him, "What's your earliest memory?" Thinking it's a pretty innocent question. He goes, "I don't remember anything before 14." I'm like, "Oh my god." >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. Are you serious? He goes, "Dude, I'm telling you right now, I'm not playing a game with you. I don't remember anything before 14." And I said, "Did you have a very traumatic childhood?" He goes, "No." >> I'm like, "I'm no therapist, but I believe you have some things you want want to talk to a therapist about. and he goes, "No, there's nothing here, Chris. That sounds like avoidant." Okay. And thankfully, there's a happy ending to the story because a couple years later, after he stopped working for me, he went to see a therapist. And then he later told me it was the best thing he's ever done. >> Yeah. >> And he seemed like a new person. >> Yeah. >> He was doing all the things that we to we talked about that he wanted to do but never did, and now he was doing them. And I'm just really happy for him. He seemed like a much happier person and now he has memories. >> Yeah. See, >> which is pretty cool and I like it. >> Yeah. >> Yes. So, >> well, and let me just say something. Even if you avoid the thing, it still lives in you, right? So, like not only just up here, but in your body it lives. And every time that a situation triggers you, that same physiological response will take hold and you will respond in a similar way or react in a similar way as you did subconsciously back then during that same situation. It's just the way that our memory networks connect to one another. And so, you know, those neurons, we can rewire them. That's the whole idea of neuroplasticity. But you cannot do that if you don't face the stuff headon. And your friend who had no memories for 14 years probably lived his life very dissociated meaning very disconnected from his emotional experience. And a lot of people go through that. I see that all the time in the workplace actually too where it's like people uh you know don't have like any emotional memories. They they can't connect emotionally to people because they never had that opportunity or they avoided the opportunity growing up or didn't have a nurturing upbringing and it really gets in the way for them. Same thing with creatives. You have to connect to be able to sell. >> This makes a lot of sense to me. In other words, the I'm a visual person and people are like, "You just pick the most violent visuals." But that's how it works in my brain. >> Sure. >> Is if you don't take out the trash, it still rots and fers. >> Yeah. It's stinky. >> You can avoid it, but it still rots and it fers and it actually gets worse over time. Yeah. >> Yeah. To a unhealthy level. >> Correct. >> Okay. Drigo, you wanted to say something and then Rosio, did you gesture like you got a thought? >> Oh, you're just stretching your arms. Okay, you do. Perfect. >> Unrelated to your story. You're talking about Matthew and Tina's in the chat and he just said what's up. So happy to see you guys. You know, Matthew and Zena. >> Hey. Yes. He was the truth. >> Yes, Matthew. Thanks for tuning in. Glad that you're here. >> Yes. >> Also, guys, uh Nidi has a book out. I'm going to put in links if you guys want it. People ask people asking in the chat. It's called Working Well, and it's out in in Amazon. You can buy on Amazon, super easy. Or you can just go to a fine bookstore and and purchase it in store if that's your jam. >> Totally. >> Yeah. >> Where you buy books. >> Hector the connector has a question. Hector. >> Hector. >> Wow. What a spirited conversation. Um, I feel like I can relate to you, Nidhi. Um, I had a lot of trauma growing up. I know you Chris by your podcasts and I hear how you were raised and thank God for your parents for doing such a wonderful job because I think you owe them for raising you the right way bumps and all whatever you you know you had you they gave you the tools um like me I'm going I'm I'm going through this daily how did this happen with my siblings how did this happen with me and I do have the tools and I kind of feel like when you like I do breath work I do um meditation I I do all kinds of things, grounding, but because I need it if I grew up, you know, with different tools, I I would handle it better. But I've I'm seeking out to be a better person. And, you know, thank you for writing that book because I think just listening to you and seeing the book, you know, that's going to be very helpful. But yeah, I'm on a lifelong journey of healing myself, being a better person, period. better father, better husband, better friend, better boss, you name it. >> I love that. >> Wonderful. Thanks for being here, Hector. >> I know you brave the LA traffic and had to go up the 405 >> to the 10 to I'm just kidding. Like an SNL skit here. >> Exactly. >> Thank you guys. >> The ripple effect the ripple effects are profound, right? Like it not only positively influences how you show up, but every person that you engage with gets a better version of you. And I think that's huge >> 100%. I say bring the weather. A cool 72 degrees with a slight ocean breeze, the sun peeking through the clouds cuz you know, you can see somebody walking and they're bringing thunder and lightning, baby. And you want to stay away. So I do the opposite. >> Ah, love that. Love that. Thank you for that. >> Q. Imagine dragons. Thunder and lightning. >> Thunder. Thunder. >> Oh, there's more skills here. I love it. Let's do it. >> Limitless. Look, I love having conversations with you because you've done the work. You have the language. Your word choice is delicious in my mind. And I just like that we can stay in the pocket and have these kinds of conversations. Okay. All right. Let's connect this to sales. >> Yeah. >> Cuz we we want to Okay. It's nice to feel good about ourselves, but let's make some money. >> Yeah. >> All right. Agree. Sorry to do such a hard pivot, but we're here. Okay. Um, how do we use this idea of attunement, understanding the energies and reading and relating, connecting and vibing with each other in a commerce transactional space because you're like, well, I would think naturally if we're out of alignment or attunement, the the likelihood of a deal happening is going to get lowered. >> Yes. >> You're not listening to me. You don't understand me. Uh, we come from different cultures and belief systems. I'm not going to have a good time working with you. >> Correct. versus the people who understand this are like why do they get all the new business? >> Yeah, >> let's let's get into this. >> Yeah. I think that the people that end up being successful in business are the ones that view their clients in a relational manner. They don't view it as closing a deal. They don't view it as a transaction. They view it as a relationship, as a service to the other person to better them, their company, to give them something that will enhance their life. uh whether that's professionally or personally. And I think that when you can approach your sales conversations from a relational standpoint, it makes a huge huge difference. Now, where I see connection gaps, so I talk about these connection gaps in my book. These are missed opportunities for building relationships with people. Moments where somebody asks you uh or shares something and you miss it, right? So, for example, a client may say like they may hit you up and say, "Hey, I really need help with I don't know, let's let's think about it. I need help with consulting because my staff is burnt out and I really want them to feel less burnt out." Great. Okay. So, you come into the sales conversation with burnout in your mind, right? But then as you're talking with them, they start talking about how people don't feel safe sharing and how the workload is really high and all of these factors. And if you miss that, you will then treat the symptom of burnout with well-being workshops and all the stuff that's just putting a band-aid on it versus getting to the root causes, which is psychological safety, which is uh inadequate resources to at to get the job done. That is actually the real root problem. And that's where a connection gap can happen in a sales conversation. We come into it with one problem in mind, what how we think we understand the problem. And when the client tells us something different, we don't pivot. We're not flexible enough to adapt and we miss that opportunity to meet their need. >> I understand the concept. >> Yeah. >> Where do we drop the ball? >> We drop the ball by not listening and not asking good questions. And Chris, you know that we talk about this all the time. We have to ask good questions. So, here's the three main traps that I find people fall into just in my years of doing this. People tend to be fixers, avoiders or connectors. The fixers are the ones that think that they understand the problem at hand and instead of listening and understanding and asking more questions, they jump in with solutions. And I have been guilty of this myself. I can fully acknowledge it. Uh but we miss the mark because what the client is looking for is to get a sense that they can trust us to bring the right solution to the table to solve their problem. I saw you post something the other day where it was like people don't buy from the best person. They buy from the person that they trust the most. The person that they feel can get the job done in with the least amount of friction. And so the fixers create frict friction. Fixers create friction, right? Um the avoiders, these are the ones who bypass the emotions altogether. So the client is sharing pain points. There's no validation of the pain point. There's no expression of understanding. they just kind of skirt past and they're like, "Okay, well, here's what we're going to do." That also is a miss. And then the connectors are the ones where we try to relate back to our own experiences, which can land sometimes, where we share, oh yeah, I've worked with XYZ client on this, but so what? The client that's sitting right there with you wants to feel like the most important person in the world, most important person in the room. And if you're shifting the focus to here's what I know and here's what I've done. We're connecting our own experiences yet we're missing the opportunity to actually forge a relationship with the client. So I'll pause there. I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are about those three misatunement types that I tend to notice and that I tend to see it negatively impact sales. >> Okay. I want to respond to that. I also want to tee up our audience who are here live and possibly online for for you to kind of join us in this conversation. Okay, I'm going to give you some some thoughts and feedback on this. >> Perfect. >> Okay, >> you're saying that in sales that we're making the mistake that we're treating as a transactional relationship versus a relational one. >> Yeah. >> Isn't that the problem that they're thinking of it as relational? I think of so many people in the creative space when they work with a stranger like, well, they ask me for a lower price. I value the relationship. I will agree to do it less. and oh, I wouldn't charge my friends this, so I can't then therefore charge you. I thought that was the root of the problem and you're saying, "No, no, it's the exact opposite." Can you help explain that part, please? >> Yeah. I mean, I think you can have a relationship with somebody and still maintain your fee integrity and still maintain your boundaries. Just because you can you have a bond with someone doesn't mean that your price goes down to, you know, accommodate them. Unless that is something that you have built in like if you've built into your model I have I can take on five clients every year where I reduce my fee wonderful great fabulous but if you're doing that with every single person because oh it was a referral or oh this person is a friend you're not going to be in business very long right and in fact I would say that your real friends are going to pay you your fee because they value the work that you're doing they see what you're doing brings meaning and is a service to others and they don't want to short change you in that. Now, sometimes friends can be a little sneaky and they will try to finagle like the lowest price possible. Um, I think that says a little bit more about the friendship though. It's like I want to pay my friends as much as possible or not go with them. I will find a different provider then that meets my price point if I need to. But what's the message you're sending if you're like uh I want you to do it for me but do it for like 7,000 less. Like that doesn't feel good. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah, I need to check in with my so-called friends. >> I want to talk about that a little bit. Yeah. >> Okay. I like the word fee integrity. >> Yeah. >> You and I have talked multiple times about our personal and professional business arrangements and we do get caught up in like, oh, how do I say this and this person? And I'm like, you just say like this. I don't give an F if you like it or not. This is how I'm going to do it. I don't care if you're my cousin, >> right? >> I mean, I care if you're my mom, but other than that, no. You gave birth to me. We got we we can work, right? >> Yeah. >> But that's why I generally tell people I don't want to work with family at all >> because family don't pay you full price >> and then they can never be pleased and you're going to feel bad the entire time. >> So I prefer not to. >> But I had heard or somebody tweeted this. I think it was Horosi who said something like if you're a real friend you pay full price. You never ask for a discount. You buy all your friends crap at full price. >> Totally. >> So I must not have real friends because every friend wants something from me and is never willing to pay full price. >> Yeah. with exception. There's like that 10%, but it's not the other way around. So, am I living in a world of uh disingenuous, selfish, self-centered people, or just reality doesn't match up to what you're saying? And I'm I'm just curious about you people. Have more of your quote unquote friends wanted something from you for free or for like not full price? Or is it the other way around? Am I just surrounded by snakes and eels or what? You tell me. Y'all help me out here. Anybody chime in? Okay, Hector, you get grab the mic. >> Yeah, I feel like um family doesn't really get what I do. I'm a professional. I'm a white collar professional day in and day out, but I hang with my family and we're and they're mainly blue collars, so they have no clue what I charge. >> Right. >> And it's way out of their league. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And they probably don't understand what you do and they think what you do is so easy. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Cuz you're not sweating out doing manual labor. That's exactly it. >> There's a respect and integrity within the blueco collar community. This is what real work looks like. You doing that fluffy stuff. >> Correct. >> Okay, cool. All right. Somebody else. >> I think you wanted to say something. Yes. Go ahead. Just grab the mic. Don't worry. >> I think family gets a free pass, but friends, they they it's just that's my dynamic. Family gets a free pass >> because people can't see you. Caucasian female. >> Yes. >> Okay. Well, also immigrant. >> Persian. Persian. Persian. >> Persian. Yeah. >> Okay. Uh, Persian pass for Caucasian. >> Okay. For sure. For sure. >> If you're Asian female, your family might be ginormous. So, that free ticket for that family might be incred. Like, I have hundreds of cousins, >> right? >> I'm not exaggerating. I don't even know who they are. Like, we're related. I'm like, how? Tell me. Prove it. You know, so if your family circle is pretty immediate family, >> no, I have a huge family, too. >> Okay. So, you're saying free pass to the entire huge family. >> Yes. But where I set the boundary is friends. So I think to your to to what you were saying earlier, I have actually had to have some friends in my life where I have said, you know what, >> I feel like you ask a lot of me >> and it is not reciprocal, right? And I am having to attune to you to a point where I'm giving too much. >> I'm not sitting in my values. So family I'm not talking about today because that's a different thing but from my perspective but friends I think there are situations where if it is always about giving to them for free or not at your value I have had to set boundaries there >> okay so we have experienced similar things >> totally >> except for I cut off family too >> yeah well maybe I need to learn from you >> maybe so you're saying if we share DNA >> there's a lot more latitude because you're probably raised in such a way that family is everything family above all >> correct Yes. >> And the worst people who I mean the people who treat us the worst almost always is family. >> Okay. I'm just saying broad statement. >> One time my mom asked me, she goes, "Hey, um will you consider like taking your cousin on as an intern?" This is like a blood cousin. It's not like through marriage. You know, right? I said "No mom. >> I can't." And she and she goes, "Why would you say no?" I said, ' Because you'll have Thanksgiving dinner and I don't want to ruin that relationship because people who work for me, I expect the very best and I only work with the best. So a if they're qualified, I don't really care if you're my cousin or not, but you're not getting in the back door, but but more importantly, if you come and work for me, you're like, "What a jerk. Now we can't go to the same functions anymore." And I said, "It's not worth the risk. >> I'm just looking at risk analysis." Yeah, >> that's it's not worth the squeeze. Yeah. Okay. Uh, somebody else want to chime in? Okay, now we have to be careful with the mic situation. Yeah, please move over here. Yeah, thank you. >> Uh, I I mean I do my fair share of relationship gigs. The corporates make up for it. >> Mhm. >> Well, wait. You say that you do your fair share of relationship gives >> gigs. Gigs. >> Gigs. >> Cuz she's a speaker, too. Oh, >> but we talk about this too, Chris, that we also do when when it's a a company that we really appreciate or a mission that we're very aligned with that we will we will reduce fee or you know we'll work with people but it has to be only a few like and then the others make up for it. >> Yes, you're a speaker, professional speaker. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, how many of you are here professional speakers? Okay, there's three of us. This is cool. Yeah, this is a very high percentage relative to the room. Highest paid professional speaker per capita for this room. This is awesome. >> Let's talk about it. Can we just sidebar this whole thing? >> Sure. >> Okay. >> When do you decide to do a speaking gig for less? What are the criteria that you use so that you can maintain your integrity? >> If it's virtual, that's that's a little bit easier. >> Okay, I like that. Uh, is that question directed at me or for >> you specifically? >> Um, >> remind me your name one more time. >> Tiffany. >> Tiffany. Yep. >> So, if it's virtual, if I am free that date uh >> if you're free, okay, >> promoting a book >> and can do other book events in that region. >> Okay. >> And if it's a friend, not a friend who works at a corporate, like maybe a friend who's on a commission for their city. That became really complicated. A friend who's on a commission for a city. That's super specific. >> Give me an example. >> That's a real example. >> I know, but I don't know what that means. I don't have friends that are commissions for cities. >> Okay. Can I keep it vague? Can I >> Okay, I'm going to changeize it, please. So, so let's say they're on like the Arts and Entertainment Commission for the city of Los Angeles >> and they want to I speak about disability inclusion and they want to bring someone in to maybe talk about the arts landscape. >> They don't they don't they don't have budget. >> Okay. >> So, that one I will do as a relationship gig. >> All right, Tiffany. >> That that was like too specific. >> You're like, can I make it more anonymous? and you're like that was that was dope. So if it's virtual versus in person because less requirement on your time commuting and the whole bit right okay I get that and if it's you said if you're free I I thought it was because it was free if you have free time and if there's something I if you have something to promote so you see some gain out of doing this and then the last one if it's some weird super narrow thing I don't know how else to describe is that Okay. >> Yes. Uh I'll I'll add one more which is uh >> actually it just escaped me >> when you give me the mic. Now I have the mic. >> You have the mic. Okay. All right. >> Oh. If it's structured as a Q&A versus like a formal keynote presentation. Yeah. >> Okay. So if the mental lift is lower and if it's more casual, you're more likely to say yes. And then you do it. And what's your feelings about yourself in the organization afterwards? >> I feel great. >> Good. Love it. >> Yeah. Awesome. Uh, Drigo, yes, you're a professional speaker. Go ahead. >> The internet said, "Always free work for family. It's hard to charge and always discount from your friends." They said it's easier for them to manage that. >> Wait, wait. Okay. So, uh, family is always free and friends always discount. >> They said it's easier for them to manage that. >> Manage that in what sense? >> Well, >> what do you mean easier to manage what? Getting paid less. Manage expectations. >> Okay. I don't believe you. >> Say because you can always say, "Oh, I did it for free or did it as a discount." >> Okay. There's some questions about that. This is exploding my brain. I don't want to derail the whole conversation. Nidi, I want to bring it back to you and ask you this before I respond to what Tiffany's said. >> All right. >> Go ahead. I'm going to run out of paper, so keep going. >> Okay. >> So, when when do you make these exceptions or what's your rule about doing it for less than book rate? >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I will. It depend. So there are some like payments where I won't even consider it. Uh like >> what >> they offer you money, you say no. >> Yeah. >> What the end the stream right there from the record, your honor. Too late. >> Like what what are you talking about? When would you be given money? You're like no. >> Because uh I'm at a place in my speaking career where I command a five figure fee, right? So um anything low like I so I will negotiate to a point but there is a point where it is just not worth the time energy practice effort. >> Oh I see you're saying something different than I expected. Good twist on that plot. So you're saying when the fee becomes insultingly low, you just accept it? >> Yeah. No, I do not. I definitely >> Oh, you do not accept it? >> No, I do not. >> No, I'm asking you when would you accept it? Under what condition situation? Absolutely not. >> When would you accept under book rate? >> Okay. An example. There's a conference that I'm speaking at in October. Uh they are paying me close to my full fee, but they are also per bulk purchasing my books. So then we have like a supplementation and I'm a signature author for the uh conference. And so I'm also being featured for my book thought leadership. So to me the value ad is, you know, okay, yeah, I'm getting paid under my typical fee, but it gets made up for. I'll have live footage, I'll have video, I'll have audio, I'll have stills. All of that adds adds to it. There's another conference where um they're reimbursing my travel expenses, but they bought they bulk bought 500 plus books, right? Like that's a significant investment in in me. Like that's thousands and thousands of dollars, probably equivalent to my fee. So, you know, those are the situations where I'm like, okay, that that works for me. >> Okay. Any other reasons >> that I would that I uh >> would take less than book rate? >> Would take less than book rate. It has to be worth both of our whiles, right? Like, so if you can't pay me in money, can you give me footage? Can you give me >> You've already said all this stuff. Anything else? >> No. >> Okay. She is basically saying the same thing. >> And mission and mission. Allan reminded me, my husband mission and like if it's like somebody who's very aligned with me in terms of like I really believe in what they're doing. Nonprofits, for example, are one of those where it's like, you know, they actually do have a budget, but they always tell you that they don't have a budget. Okay. All right. then I will consider it. >> Okay. Is it okay if I tear this apart? Nidi, are you >> sure? Are we going to circle back to the other part of the conversation? >> Can we circle back to By the way, if you're just joining us, I'm talking to Ni Kawari. Her new book is called Working Well. It's out everywhere. You can order it on Amazon. If you're enjoying this conversation or the way she says things in her brain, please pick up a copy of the book. >> Thank you. >> You're very welcome. All right. I'm I'm wrestling with myself right now, Nitty. I am biting my tongue. Okay, Tiffany, back to you. Oh, I What? >> I said I'm here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay, Drigo went somewhere. That's fine. But I just want to talk to you a little bit. I I want to share quickly. I hate not getting paid full rate. I hate it. And typically the ones who should pay you full rate never want to offer you full rate. And I want to say those people are the people from my own community. Hence, once again, the family will stab you first. >> It's the people from the creative communities, the nonprofits, the do it for a good cause, Chris, we're an education company where we want to empower uh black and brown communities. It's like, so you're saying you want to send a message about building value and holding us in high regard and esteem, but you're saying, "I'm going to pay you onetenth of what you're normally getting." >> Right? >> That's a double standard to me. >> Shouldn't you be paying the most? Because that expression, your friends pay full price. So you're saying you're not my friend then. Okay. Now, my wife would smack me in the back of the hands like, "Honey, you just went and did the thing for lesson book rate. Why would you do that?" I'm horribly conflicted. I do feel somewhat bitter about it. And I think to myself, the more I say yes, the more I empower them or enable them to continue doing horrible business practices. They should be the gold standard for our community to say we pay full price for our speakers. You all should charge full price and this is what we're here for. But I believe there's a rotten core to this culture of event organizers promising to give you the things that we want in exchange for real money. >> So the things that you both talk about in terms of promoting your things about uh having assets that is a given, >> right? >> That is not a perk. It's like that happens all the time. And I wouldn't even talk for your thing if we were not missional aligned. That's off the table, too. If you're having a holes about screwing the environment, I'm like, I'm not speaking of your thing. Why would I do that? >> Right? >> So, I feel like we are negotiating against ourselves. And I just I'm just being real with y'all when I agree to do it. Like, but the thing I don't do is to do less. The whole community saying, "Ah, I manage expectations." then you're not a professional in my opinion. Whether they pay you $0 or a million dollars, you owe it to yourself and to your reputation. It's your own personal integrity to give it your best. Otherwise, don't show up. >> I say this in full disclosure that I have showed up not giving an F because like they didn't pay me my price and I felt bad about myself. >> Yeah. >> And I made a promise to myself. Say no or say yes and don't halfass it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Fair. So that's so I just I just am bothered by this concept that this relational thing because my experience has been anything but the relational part is good. I want to treat it like business. The reward for us doing good business together is we can be friends not the other way around. >> So do are you saying then that you don't feel like you have a relationship with your clients? >> I do have a relationship. It's a professional relationship. Sometimes we become friends, but I don't do it to try to get more friends, >> which is the problem. A lot of creative people, they're like, "Oh, such a cool brand. They're going to like me. We going to be friends. Let's let's play golf together." I'm like, "Oh, no. No, >> no, no, no. I'm not advocating for that." So, let me be very clear. Uh, when I talk about relation, like having a relational approach in business. I'm talking about a professional relationship as in you give a crap about this client. You want to be able to make a positive impact. You want to be able to have a service that is going to transform in some way, shape, or form. I'm not talking about being buddy buddy with them. Like I would not call myself as like friends with uh with many of my client. Maybe a couple but not really. >> They're hurt right now. >> Yeah. Well, I mean you know there will do damage control and there's maybe a distinction too. You can be friendly with somebody but not be friends with them, right? So, um, and then you you avoid the murkiness that comes with a close friendship that then turns business, right? That's where things start to get messy. Um, but no, what I'm advocating for is to develop to approach uh your relationships with clients as just that, as like I want to help this person. I want to get to know what their pain points are. I want to make sure that what I'm providing them actually meets their needs. That's the extent of it. I'm not talking about Yeah. Yeah, I'm not talking about >> I just call that being professional. >> Well, but it is a relationship and not everybody approaches it from that standpoint. There are many creatives that enter a sales conversation with I have this product to sell. I am going to pitch it to you. You get to hear my pitch. Let me know if you want it. There's no questions. There's no discovery. There's no curiosity. There's no relationship building. There's nothing. It's just here's what I want to give you. And then the other person is thrown off and they're like, I don't want to buy this. like they're repelled by it because there's no relationship built. There's no trust. There's no, you know, yeah, why would they go with you? And but I say that because there are a lot of people that think that that's the way that you're supposed to to sell. >> Okay. It would take a very confident person to say that in my opinion >> to say >> to say it just the way you said it. Here's my product. Here's my service. These are the fees. These are the timetable. Buy it or don't. >> Right. That to me is like uh either really confident, you're tired of the BS, maybe you're kromagining at this point, or you're arrogant or some version of that. I don't know if you read the Dan Sullivan question book by Dan Sullivan as self-described the most successful consultant or coach. Dan Sullivan says, "I'm going to ask you this one question. If you can't answer, I'm out. I give you no second chances. There's no redoss. There's no undos. There's just one chance." It's very much like what you're saying. Yeah. and he is by his own words the world's most successful coach or consultant. >> So I I don't necessarily view that as transactional or relational. I just view it like I am I have have a very strong gate or filter for who I'm going to allow to work with me and these are the terms and conditions and you'll know if you're right for me and I'll also know if I'm right for you really fast >> if you can just answer this one question. Yeah. And he he details this one story in the book where somebody didn't answer, could not answer it, and came back to him years later having heard all the good things he has done. He goes, "You had your shot." And he goes, "There's no redo." He's like, "No, there isn't." >> Mhm. >> Would you agree though that the majority of your audience is not quite at that level? >> I would agree 99.999% of them are not at that level. >> Correct. >> So, what is the transactional version that our audience is doing that is not that version? >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's showing up, not really asking questions, assuming you understand what the problems are, and then being like, here's what my project is, right? I think it's a lack of confidence that actually drives that approach. Because when you're confident, you can sit down and and actually explore a little bit and be like, okay, so tell me a little bit more. You mentioned in your email exchange to me, this is what's going on. I'd love to hear a bit more. And you talk it through. And then you're able to adapt and formulate your offering accordingly. That's not doesn't mean that you're customizing every single thing. You might, but uh that you have a good sense of actually identifying the problems versus the symptoms and then catering accordingly, right? Like I think that that is a relationally driven approach that is successful. At least it's been successful for me. Every time I sit down to to talk with a corporate client or a person who's booking me for a speaking engagement, I ask, "What matters to you and what does success look like for your audience?" and then I cater what I'm providing them accordingly. I don't show up though and I'm not like here's what I got and like you know you can figure it out from there without any conversation and I'm just, you know, putting band-aids on things. >> I want to throw this back to Tiffany since uh Drigo's back here. I want to close this out a little bit and see if there's something you want to add to this. Either a reaction or a question or nothing at all. Yeah, let's try that. >> No, what's going on? Is it out of batteries? >> Is it green? >> It's out of juice. Okay. Tiffany is saying she doesn't have any reaction or followup. Yes. >> Okay. All right. >> I agree with >> Yeah. Who's all y'all? We'll trade mics. Go ahead. >> I think what Nidhi what I agree with Nidhi on is that a lot of my highest paying gigs have been from relationships that I've had for 10 years. I met someone at a happy hour at a nonprofit who now works at a different organization. So, I think that's what you're talking about of building deep relationships where you're not going in with the transaction right away, per se. >> Correct. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And it's still a professional relationship. Correct, Tiffany? Yeah. It's not like you're like besties with this person. It's that you've gotten to know them well and you now have built a trust within with them to where they want to book you to come and speak. I do wonder if some of your clients think that they're your besties, but you don't see it that way. >> It's possible. >> It's sassy. >> I am friends with a couple of my clients, right? Like um I mean I don't I mean like she Raina and I have collaborated and are collaborating and I consider her a friend, right? But you know there are other that that's rare. That's a very rare You're special, Raina. There's a it's a very rare situation for me to have uh anything beyond a professional relationship and I also have really firm boundaries because of my therapist background, right? So, I can't I'm friendly towards lots of people, but am I friends with them? No. >> Got it. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to prompt our live audience if you want to fire off some comments or questions, we'll have Drigo read them. I just want to ask you to be clear and succinct because he can't read a lot of things like that. So drop in right now and if there's something really good that he feels is going to contribute the conversation, we can do that. But we're going to move on. >> Yeah, please. >> Okay. >> So the other part that you said, which I am 100% on board with, is that we don't ask great questions and we're not really listening because we fall into one of three categories. >> You're the fixer. >> I think you think you have all the answers and your value to the world is like, I got it. I got it. and you're going to jump to conclusions and pre-diagnose and prescribe solutions before you even really understand the other person. Okay, >> we have a lot of those people because our society rewards people for having answers. >> Okay, to the avoiders. The avoiders is like, I hear something, I'm going to just jump right over it. Now, I would say like men probably fall into that category more than women because like, oh, sounds like emotion. I'm going to run away from this, right? And I admit if I see another man tearing up, I'm going to look the other way cuz I'm like, I'm going to give you some space, bro. Compose yourself and we'll get back to it. Cuz I feel the more I look at that person, the more guilt and possible shame they may might feel in the moment. >> I'm okay with emotion. I just >> That sounds like a projection onto the other person. >> Who knows? >> Perhaps you feel guilt and shame when somebody's watching you and you're deeply emotional. >> Maybe. Maybe. Uh but like say for example like somebody has a wardrobe malfunction. I'm like, >> "Yeah, yeah, sure. Sure." >> I'm not projecting there. I don't think. >> No, no, no. That's an that's an embarrassing situation, right? >> Yes. >> So, a lot of men do have struggles with emotion because we're generally taught in most cultures. I think >> uh a man is strong, a man does not cry. Boys don't cry. There's songs written about this in movies titled this. >> So, I believe it's not my imagination. So, I'm like, I'm going to give you some space. But when they cry, I'm like, let it out, bro. I'll give you a hug right now. Cry as much as you want. They say, I'm sorry. It's like, no need to be sorry. Genuine expression of human emotion is a beautiful thing. >> Yeah. >> I don't think I'm projecting. Okay. >> Number three is the connectors. >> Yeah. >> I like the concept. I don't like the word, but I like the concept a lot. >> Yeah. >> Now, we're taught that empathy is a really good thing to have. >> And we think the demonstration of empathy is you're having a moment. Let me make it about me. I'm going to tell you about how I was abused and traumatized. And then the other person like this ain't about you. >> Correct. Yeah. >> I have Okay. So I have friends that hit all branches falling down that tree. They want to fix you. They are not processing what you're processing or they'll just subject or just throw themselves into the story like it's all about me now. >> Correct? >> So I I often recommend to people give them space follow up. Don't make it about you. That is not empathy. That's something else. That's about self-centerness. And I think we've been programmed that if I just relate how I lost somebody or lost an animal, then I'm relating to you. >> Yeah. >> That's not what we do. >> No. >> What should we do instead of the connector part? >> Yeah. So, what we want to aim for is to be an explorer. So, the explorers are the ones that are really great at asking deeper questions. They don't take the face value response as it is. So, they'll say things here are some like examples. Could you tell me more about help me to better understand? Could you share a little bit? Right? Like these are prompts to help the other person to dive a little bit deeper into their own emotional experience. And then for you to practice two key skills. One is normalization. Meaning I help you to feel less alone and not like you're out of bounds for feeling upset or distressed by this situation that you're experiencing. And then validating meaning that you you say something along the lines of I get it that makes sense to me that you would feel embarrassed or you would feel frustrated or you would feel disappointed. Right? Those are the really uh core elements of being a explorer and those traits also will make you a successful salesperson. >> Okay. And are there any comments that we need to respond to before I probably move into my last and most important question possibly? Thanks for asking, Chris. There are some comments. >> Read only the very best, the cream of the crop, please. >> Cream. Creme delic. >> Yes. >> I'm new to sales. How would you transition a position to say a friendly state to business or vice versa? I'm still learning. >> That's a pretty good question. >> It's a good question. >> Okay. So, I'm new to sales. How do I transition from a friendly state to a business state? People do get lost in this a lot. We become such quick great friends and now I can no longer ask for the business. >> I used to fall into this trap myself. Now it's become super awkward. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> How do we do that? >> So the first step is you have to get past your discomfort of having a conversation about it because you're going to have to address it now, right? And one of the things I recommend to like the leaders I work with when they have a friendly relationship, but now all of a sudden they're having to kind of put like, you know, put some put some expectations in place or have a difficult conversation is to make it light-hearted. It doesn't have to be so serious, but you could say something along the lines of, "Okay, you know, I know that we're friendly, but I'm going to have to put my boss hat on now. I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't give you this feedback. Here's where we can grow." Right? Same type of thing can go with a client. It's like, okay, you know, I know that we're good friends, but you know, I got to put my business hat on here. Here's what my fee is. Here's what my expectations are. Does that work for you? We can stay friends regardless. Like, it's not going to affect the relationship. But if it's not within your price point, if it's not something that you think you can move forward with, that's okay. Just let me know. But I think having that conversation is really important and people avoid it because it's uncomfortable, especially when the boundaries have already blurred. Do you say it the way you just said it? >> Sometimes, yeah, sometimes I literally will, like for my clients, for example, um I'm thinking back to therapy clients, uh who I am friendly, not friends with, I will let them know like, "Hey, I got to put my therapist hat on here, right? I would not be a good therapist if I didn't gently nudge you about this thing." >> Time out. You just said it two different tones, by the way. >> Yeah. >> Did you pick up on that? >> Yeah. When you put your therapist hat on, you sounded like a boss. >> When you said, "Oh, I got to put my business boss hat on." It sounded very soft to me. >> Yeah. >> Well, you're leading with the friendship, right? You're you're acknowledging we have a different relationship. And I'm also signaling. So, here's the attunement piece. I am also signaling so the other person can read my cue that, hey, this is a gear shift now, right? I'm changing my demeanor and they will pick up on that subconsciously and consciously and subtle shifts like that is how we get others to attune to us and how we attune to others. >> Is this like uh pacing and leading? >> It can be that's a part of it for sure. I mean think think uh body language, think tonality, think cadence, think physical posture, uh think proximity. All of these things play a role in whether people feel connected or disconnected from you. And you can have hard conversations while maintaining connection. That is the misconception people have. >> This is fantastic. I used to have trouble walking with people earlier in my days. Like who who's walking first? It's just super awkward and weird. It's hella awkward. I'm just going to put it out there. Like am I following you? Are you following me? Like we're like crossing over each other. It's so weird. And I think that is the visual representation when we're out of attunement. >> Yes. >> Yes. These days I don't have that much problem anymore. I don't know why, but I feel better about myself. Maybe we walk and we talk and then if I want to go across this way versus the path we're on, I'll just pivot internally like do is it cool if we go this way? >> And then Yeah, let's go this way. Like I think it's over here. So, and then we're in sync, in stop, in pace, in alignment. And then we just gently pivot and we redirect. Yes, >> that's the visual version. Okay, the visual version. So, you were like, "Hey, I'm going to put my therapist hat on here. >> Here's here's the thing. I would be doing you a disservice." So, here's the other piece. You make it about what's beneficial to the other person. So, in the client situation, it's I really want to give you the best service possible. I want to make sure that you get the best out of me and here's the price point to accomplish that. And if you can't afford that, that's totally okay. I will still be your friend. and I will still be close to you. We just won't be able to work together, you know, and and that disar, you know, I mean, you land the plane. You got to be like direct, clear is kind, right? You got to be direct. Um, but you can do it in a softened manner. Same thing with the leadership conversation. Hey, I've got to put my boss hat on. There are some there's some pieces of feedback that I need to provide you because I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't provide you growth edges in areas that I know that you can expand your skill set. You want to be able to progress in your career and this is an imperative part of that. You make it about the other person and I can tell you in all of my interactions it has been successful because people feel like oh my gosh like you are thinking of what's best for me. You're not doing this because you want to be mean or because you're trying to put the hammer down and be like I don't want to work with you. You're doing it because you want to give me the best quality service. >> Okay. Quick poll. Not a conversation or a dialogue. Quick poll. What Nidi just said. Have you been able to do or do you think you will be able to do? Raise your hand if you think yes. Have you been able to do? >> Great. All right. Yay. Oh, >> fantastic. >> Excellent. >> Okay. I want to point it out for our audience. Drigo, give me one second. I want to point out for our audience, I think Nidhi shifted gears in that car three times. >> Okay. First, serious gear. Uh, put my therapist hat on. I'm putting my business strategy hat on. I'm putting my graphic designer and my packaging design hat on. >> Yeah. >> Shift gears. Like, whoa. What? You just rock the boat there. Shift gears twice now by saying, "I think I'd be doing you wrong a disservice. I'd be doing you dirty." Whatever language you want to use. So, you make it about them. Oh, we're back to cruise. Everything's cool. And then you shifted back into the hard gear again, which is in order for us to proceed, I need to charge you money to do this thing. That's the thing you don't want to hear, right? And like all of a sudden, it's about business again. And then you're like, "No, shift back." So that's the fourth shift, which is totally cool if you don't want to do this. We'll still be friends. Everything's cool. >> Yeah. >> And we are on our way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Love it. >> Okay. Everybody understand? >> Beautiful. >> Drigo, >> you said something. >> You mentioned pacing and leading and the audience doesn't know what that is. They want clarification as we're shifting gears. >> Okay. Ni, can you help me out there? >> Pacing is going to be literally the pace of the conversation, right? So, like Chris, when you speed up, I speed up. When you slow down, I slow down. We're matching. We're matching. We're becoming in sync. Like think about but there let me caveat that with one situation which is when people are in a stressed state you do not want to match that tenor. So if a client is coming to you and they're like oh my god ah like things are falling apart. You do not want to meet them at that same level of intensity. This is where co-regulation which means that my nervous system is now going to bring down their nervous system. I'm going to intentionally slow down and be like whoa oh my gosh it sounds like there's a lot happening. Hold on. Let's take it one thing at a time. I'm right here with you. Could you repeat? Right now there's like it's like a breath that they get to take and exhale because I'm in control now. They're out of control. I am now in control. So that is one instance, one caveat where the pacing you you want to you want to modulate that like you want to be able to to do something different. Um and what was the second word? Pacing and >> leading and leading. >> But you just jumped to leading on that one. >> Yes, that is leading. Yeah. Yeah. So taking so taking the reigns of the conversation when needed. Uh now there are you're going to have to read people's cues here because there's give and take and reciprocity when you're attuned to somebody. So there are sometimes where the the client is going to be leading. They're going to be expressing what their concerns are. They're going to be asking, hey, asking you questions. And then there are going to be times where you're going to take the lead where you're like, okay, well, here's how I envision myself supporting you in this. Here's kind of what my offering is. How does that fit with you? What are your thoughts? what are any objections that come up for you? That's where you're going to take the the lead. So, there's a give and take and a reciprocity, but you have to get really good at reading cues, which is one of the four attunement skills, which I did not cover yet, which we should Did I address it, Drigo? >> Okay, he's giving me a thumbs up. All right, >> that does actually lead me to our very final question here is you talk about the four domains of attunement, which you are tipping at in the book Working Well. Can you break down those and give us a quick example of each? So there are four domains of attunement. >> Yeah. >> What are they >> and how do we use them? >> You can remember the four domains with the acronym Frisk. F RSC. Uh F is for flexibility. R is reading Q's. S is self-regulation. C is collaboration. So flexibility that means that you're agilely able to respond to people's needs. When they need to pivot, you pivot. when they need to stay on something, you stay on something. You come in with an agenda, but they have a different agenda, you're flexible and you adapt accordingly. Doesn't mean you don't circle back to your agenda. It just means in that moment that's not what's needed. R is reading cues. So, this is where you notice the micro shifts that happen in people's demeanor are and this can be a little tricky with neurode divergent people, right? Because eye contact might be a little bit different. So, just know who you're speaking to. But generally, people will make eye make eye contact with you. their body language when they're open to you will be open. And if it's not, it means that they're inhibiting their emotional response to you, right? Uh what's their tone of voice looking like? What is the cadence sounding like? All of those are going to be cues to be paying attention to. Then you have self-regulation. So this is your capacity to manage your own physiological and emotional response. So you're going to need to do 478 breathing. When you start to notice that you feel overwhelmed, breathe in through your nose for 4 seconds, hold in the breath for seven, exhale through your mouth for eight. Ground yourself. Notice your feet on the ground, right? Observe your body touching the chair beneath you. All of that is going to help to, you know, like let your nervous system know, hey, I'm safe. And then the last one is collaboration. So this is just simply recognizing and communicating and creating a felt sense that we are an allied front. we're on the same team, that we want the same mutually agreed upon outcomes, and I want to hear your feedback, and you want to hear mine. It's as simple as that. Four really easy skills that have an outsized impact. >> Okay. So, if I want to be on the same vibe, channel, frequency as the other person, a word we call attunement. >> Yes. >> Then first, I just need to make sure that I'm flexible in what it is that we're going to do. So if I want to go to the beach and you want to go to the park, I first need to listen to you kind of understand and explore that as an option. I maybe that's a better option or eventually I can say, "Hey, what about what about the beach?" >> Okay, cool. >> Reading cues. This is a tough one. >> Mhm. >> The concept is clear. >> Yeah. >> But it's quite difficult. >> Yes. >> People are not paying attention to body language. They're not paying attention to micro expressions. They're not they're paying attention to tone >> or word choice. How do we get better at that? >> I think in a sales context, this is one of the hardest skills for people because you'll notice that when you mention your budget to somebody, the tone changes, right? All of a sudden, it went from this like great vibrant back and forth to, oh well, wait a second. I'm going to have to check in with XYZ manager. We're just going to have to make sure we have the budget. All of a sudden, now the tone has shifted. That is a cue to you though. Okay, there's an objection. there's something that is making this a not a no-brainer for this person and I need to explore what that is. Or let's let's take a different context. Let's just say that you're having a difficult conversation with somebody and you notice that their demeanor starts to become more defensive. Their posture is a little bit more slumped. That is a cue that something you're communicating, not necessarily the words, but the way in which it's being communicated needs to shift because you're evoking a defensiveness in the other person. And then you adapt accordingly. That's where the flexibility skill comes back into play. It's like, okay, huh, I just gave you this feedback. Your arms are crossed. You're leaning away from me. Clearly, I have said something in a manner that is not being received well. So, let me explore that. And simple questions like, you know, hey, I just wanted to check in. How did that land with you? Or I'm curious to know what are your thoughts on what I just shared is enough to kind of expose what's happening. >> Okay. Since we're talking about sales in your example, you drop the price finally. >> Yeah. >> And you have a funny response to it versus an emphatic joyful yes. >> And they're like all of a sudden Bambi on ice. >> Mhm. >> What is the way that you can check in with them? >> What are phrases that you like to use? >> One that you taught me, Chris, all those years ago that has been served me very well is, you know, hey, at first I name it, right? So, here's like the acknowledgement. Hey, I just noticed that, you know, there might be something that is still feeling un like you might be feeling unsure about. I'm just really curious to know what would make this a no-brainer for you. Like, what would allow you to go back and be like, "Hell yes, I want to book this person right now and pay her full fee." And that opens up a conversation. Sometimes people will be like, "Oh, nothing." Like, it's not it's not a question of that, right? Uh other times I have heard from somebody or from clients like yeah well you know I think if we added in XYZ it would just make it even better and I'm like let's talk about that then. So sometimes like even just simple questions like that can uncover the objection that was hidden previously. >> Okay. Excellent. Reading the room. We're good. Some nods here. Excellent. I think the second most important thing in the FRSC thing is collaboration. Yeah, >> we're allies in this endeavor. >> I find this to be a very difficult thing for most people when they're a sales mindset. >> We're actually not allies. I have something I want you to do and I can't put my need to make money over your need to do the right thing. >> Yeah. >> And we see it all the time because we have more examples in sales transactional relationships than we do the opposite. And we have normalized bad behavior by the way. >> How do we reprogram oursel? >> I think this circles back to what we had talked about earlier which is be having a relational approach. So I think when you approach sales conversations as I'm just trying to get money from you, people smell it a million miles away and they are absolutely repelled by it. like it's repulsive to them because ultimately what they want they will give happily give you that money if they get the sense that you genuinely care about them their business the things that are going to change for them as a result of the service you're providing. So that's what you want to connect with is hey like help me to better understand what's the biggest pain point that you're experiencing right now and how do you see what I'm doing or here's how I envision what I do as a solve for that is going to be a relational approach that will help you to close the deal much more effectively than any transactional approach will >> okay so the four domains of attunement meaning if you're feeling out of sync and you want to work on this and be on the same page whether Whether it's in a corporate environment >> with a manager or a subordinate, whether it's in a partnership with your spouse or long-term partner, we're not in sync. We're not sharing the same wavelength, or in a business context, when you're trying your best to serve a customer, you can't understand why you keep losing opportunities. The four things are FRSC. Be flexible. Read the cues. Self-regulate meanings. If you're feeling like you're a little funny, learn to like chill out. Chill. Yeah. >> And collaboration, which is how are you an ally in this? Are we on the same page? Are we working as a team versus you want something >> correct? You got it. >> Okay. Yep. >> Now, if those ideas sound enticing and you want to work on that, tell me what we're going to get in the book. >> Yeah. All of this and more. Um, all of this and more. Um, yeah, it's the book is juicy. The book is juicy. Don't be deterred by the title. The title had to be what it was because my publisher wanted the word. >> We love them. >> We love We love my publisher. We love my publisher. Love you, Penguin Random House. And also, this book is uh it is self-help psychology forward with a business tinge to it. So, don't be deterred by that. And and just know that the book is broken up into three sections. Uh and it's very meaty. We have the get in tune with yourself section which is all about these limiting beliefs, past present connections, attachment, all the stuff that we never think about in a business in a work context. Then we talk about getting in tune with others where we cover the connection gaps. We cover these misatunement styles and what we should work towards. We we talk all types of uh different case studies of how people have done this well. And then I have a very helpful framework at the end of the book called the check-in framework which will provide you the exact language and guidance to have hard conversations with clients, with your boss, with your partner, with whoever you need to. Um, it really has been beneficial to everybody I've worked with and I hope it'll be beneficial for you too. >> Okay, that was fantastic. >> Thank you. >> There's some silent applause in the room. Thank you. You guys can applause. You can make noise. Thank you very much, Nidhi. >> Thank you. This conversation absolutely did not disappoint. You overd delivered in value as many of our conversations have gone in the past. That's one of the reasons why you keep hearing collaborations between Nit and myself. Super smart, experienced lady who's thought about these things in way deeper, more profound ways than I have. And I want to thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. And I want to wish you the very best with your book. Let's help her to get this on some list, y'all. Best seller list. That's what we want, right? We need to move some books here. So, if you've enjoyed this and if you want to be a friend and not the rat bastard kind of friend, you pay full price. >> That's right. That's right. It actually is 7% off on Amazon right now. So, whopping 7% >> discount, man. 7% >> wower. >> Why isn't it more than that? >> I don't know. >> What the heck? What the heck? Amazon, Penguin, Random House, whatever. Okay, we'll get to that. Let's wrap up the show, but I want to do one weird thing after the rap. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. So, stick around. We're going to do a role play. >> All right. Oh, Lord. >> Jeez Louise. >> Read the cues. >> All right. >> All right. Here we go. >> Um, I want you to look at this camera. >> Okay. >> And I want you to say your full name. So, I am or my name is. And then you just say you are listening to the future. >> I'm Nidi Tawari, LCSSW. And you're listening to the future. >> One more time, just a little bit slower. >> Okay. I'm Nidi Tawari, LCSSW, and you're listening to the future. >> Bingo. Bango. Okay, Jiggle, we good? >> All right, live. Wait, did you just cut the live? >> You don't have to cut the live. It's okay. It's too late. >> The live is done. >> The live is done. The life.