Podcast 13 min read
Why Friendships Change: Values, Growth, and Distance w/ Jule Kim
with Jule Kim
Chris Do and Jule Kim examine how friendship changes when approval gives way to care, boundaries, and trust.
Chris Do
Founder, The Futur™ · December 13, 2025
The hidden price of being liked
A friendship can look generous while quietly running on fear. Jule Kim, a friend of Chris Do who draws on her work with clients and her own history of people pleasing, recognizes that bargain from the inside. Her perspective matters because she has both accepted unequal relationships and struggled to recognize what made them unequal.
Early in her friendship with Do, Kim was excited to spend time with someone she considered intelligent. Beneath that excitement sat a less comfortable motive: his approval could serve as evidence of her own intelligence. Being accepted was not simply pleasant. It became something to protect.
That changed the stakes of ordinary interaction. A mistake threatened more than an awkward conversation. It threatened the judgment she hoped he would make about her.
Kim's response was to move toward the discomfort rather than maintain the performance. She describes admitting mistakes because carrying the weight of concealment feels worse than disclosure. Eventually, the same conclusion kept returning: his opinion was outside her control.
“There's nothing I can do,” she says of another person's decision to judge her.
The point is not resignation. It is the limit of impression management. A relationship cannot become more honest while one participant treats every interaction as an audition.
Approval is not the same as friendship.
Do recognizes the distinction because he has made a version of that trade himself. In junior high, he wanted access to a cooler social circle. A popular boy with feathered hair and bright nylon pants seemed to offer an escape from being the nerd who got picked on.
The boy talked to him and walked back toward his house. He also behaved in ways Do recognized as slightly cruel. Not enough to make the arrangement immediately collapse. Enough to make acceptance conditional.
Do calls it “10% mean.”
He tolerated that fraction because the imagined reward felt larger. Friendship with the popular kid could confer status. The relationship's value lay partly in what other students would think when they saw them together.
His father disliked the boy. Do defended him, even though his own account makes clear that he already understood the problem. The defense was not evidence of trust. It protected a hoped-for social promotion.
The distinction belongs beside the question posed by Where Do You Draw Confidence From?: whose judgment gets to establish a person's worth? Here, the issue is not public performance or professional recognition. It is the private cost of needing one particular person to approve.
Kim and Do describe different versions of the same pressure. She wanted confirmation that she was smart. He wanted confirmation that he was cool. Both could recognize the relationship more clearly once its promise of validation lost some power.
That is where their disagreement becomes useful. They do not offer one universal definition of a good friend. They expose how much depends on what someone believes friendship is supposed to provide, and what that person has learned to tolerate in exchange.
Being useful can feel like belonging
Kim's school relationships often began with something she could provide. Other students copied her homework or sought help with tests. Her academic ability gave her a place in the group, even when it did not produce a deeper relationship.
She does not describe every exchange as exploitation. Some classmates were kind. Some had strengths she admired in other areas. Helping them felt natural, and their companionship was enough for her at the time.
That qualification matters. A relationship that begins with usefulness does not automatically remain shallow. Kim says some of those connections grew into something more.
She also acknowledges the cost. Providing answers enabled behavior that was not good for those students in the long run. Kind intentions did not make the arrangement sound.
Her boundary appeared when requests arrived with entitlement or contempt. A classmate who treated access to her work as an obligation received a different response. She would ignore the nudge, decline to engage, or pretend not to understand what was wanted.
Do's tolerance was lower. He remembers a high school classmate who increasingly relied on him for vocabulary answers. An occasional favor became a substitute for studying, while Do carried the risk of getting into trouble.
Eventually, he stopped supplying the answers.
The contrast is not between a generous person and a selfish one. It is between two understandings of what makes an exchange fair:
- Kim could accept companionship as a meaningful return for academic help.
- Do wanted evidence that the other person would contribute beyond simply being present.
- Both resisted treatment that became openly belittling or entitled.
For Do, friendship was already mutual. It could not also function as the payment one person offered for the other's additional labor. Someone who accepted help needed to show, in some form, that the care ran both ways.
Kim's difficulty was more basic: she had not always known how to interpret her own negative feelings. She describes growing up with the message that anger meant something was wrong with her and that expressing it burdened other people.
Under those conditions, discomfort was easy to dismiss. Instead of treating a reaction as information about an interaction, she treated it as a problem within herself.
A college roommate made that confusion harder to sustain. The roommate repeatedly called Kim Big Bird, referring to her tall, thin appearance. Kim remembers the tone as cutting, not affectionate. After roughly six months, she moved out.
She never told the roommate directly that the comments hurt.
The omission is as important as the exit. Kim could remove herself from the situation before she could explain a boundary inside it. Distance solved the immediate problem, but it did not require the conversation she now recognizes was missing.
These memories give Living in the Dogma of your Parents a specific companion theme: inherited rules about acceptable emotion can shape which relationships a person keeps. Kim's account stays personal. Her lesson is not that kindness fails, but that kindness without permission to object leaves too much unexamined.
Distance is not a verdict
Do responds to that ambiguity with categories. He describes four tiers of friendship, though the first includes immediate family rather than friends in the ordinary sense. The categories are less a ranking of human worth than an account of the obligations he accepts.
His closest circle includes his wife, children, parents, and siblings. These are the people for whom he says he would lay down his life. The next circle receives substantial time, help, and resources, but not at the expense of that first commitment.
Then come friendly acquaintances. He can enjoy their company and treat them well without organizing his attention around their needs. Finally, there are people he prefers to avoid.
Presented plainly, his four tiers of friendship separate several commitments that the single word friend often compresses:
- Family-level commitment: The small circle whose needs take priority over every other tier.
- Deep close friends: People who receive significant time, resources, and active support.
- Friendly acquaintances: People who can receive kindness without the same degree of access.
- People kept at a distance: Those whose presence he generally avoids, without treating them poorly.
His practical dividing line between close friend and acquaintance is deliberately ordinary: the airport pickup. A close friend gets the ride, even if Do complains privately that an Uber would have been easier. An acquaintance does not receive the same automatic commitment.
The humor makes the distinction legible. Affection is not the only issue. Time, inconvenience, and competing responsibilities make different relationships materially different.
Kim largely recognizes the structure but separates strangers from people she has known and no longer wants nearby. For her, lack of information is different from evidence of incompatible values. One leaves the relationship open; the other can justify closing it.
Do's emphasis falls on how slowly he reaches a judgment. He wants repeated observations rather than a single incident. Someone can say something he considers foolish and still remain a person he enjoys seeing.
Disagreement does not automatically require exile.
This is especially important because his harshest language is stronger than his actual practice. Even when he describes someone as effectively out of his life, he says he does not intend to hurt that person. He also leaves room for growth and redemption.
Kim sees grace in that patience. She also identifies its danger for someone with her history. Waiting for more evidence can become an excuse to disregard evidence already available. She has done that before, maintaining relationships because belonging mattered more than acknowledging the pattern.
Neither position fully cancels the other. Quick judgment can turn one bad day into a character verdict. Endless generosity can turn a recurring injury into a permanent exception.
The useful distinction is between slowing a judgment and refusing to make one. Do can maintain a friendly relationship while limiting access. Kim can accept differences while deciding that particular conduct is incompatible with closeness. Their disagreement makes room for an option that all-or-nothing friendship obscures: less intimacy without a campaign of hostility.
The burger, the gas pump, the difference
Do's most revealing example takes place in a car, not during a crisis. In college, late-night work sometimes required a trip to a printing shop. He usually drove, and the group would stop for fast food along the way.
One friend opened his sandwich, arranged the fries, and laid out a napkin so he could eat while occupied with driving. Only then did she turn to her own food.
Another friend simply reached into the bag and started eating.
Do eventually had relationships with both women. The one who made sure he could eat became his wife.
He tells the story as an example of consideration. The difference was not the price of dinner or the extravagance of the gesture. One person registered what the situation required of someone else.
The other did not.
Kim responds strongly to the example, but her own history adds a complication. She credits her husband, Jason, with teaching her interpersonal cues she had previously missed. What seems obvious to one person can be something another has had to learn.
That keeps the anecdote from becoming a reliable shortcut for judging strangers. Do's broader method depends on patterns over time. One sandwich cannot carry the entire burden of establishing character.
The story instead clarifies what he pays attention to: whether another person's needs enter the calculation before a request arrives. The same distinction sits near the subject of The Skill You Need To Win Clients That No One Talks About, though here the stakes are personal rather than commercial.
He applies a similar standard to driving. If someone else supplies the car, takes on the driving, and absorbs the wear, he wants to pay for the gas. At a stop, he would also get out and pump it.
These are his standards, not rules he claims everyone has already agreed to. The point is that someone notices the contribution and responds.
His examples make consideration concrete:
- Make the driver's food accessible before settling into a meal.
- Offer to cover gas when another person supplies the ride.
- Look for a useful task instead of assuming the other person will handle everything.
- Notice an opportunity to help without waiting for instructions.
Do connects some of this behavior to his older brother. As a younger passenger, he could not always pay, but he could pump gas. Once outside the car, he could clean the windows or remove trash.
Kim remembers a different emotional structure around similar requests. As the youngest sibling, with a substantial age gap between herself and the others, she experienced instructions as orders. The task felt hierarchical rather than collaborative.
The physical action could look identical. Its meaning did not.
That difference explains why unspoken standards can create friction. One person sees an obvious opportunity to contribute. Another hears a demand for obedience. Their exchange does not erase accountability, but it shows why understanding a pattern requires more than observing whether a particular chore gets done.
Care is visible in behavior. Interpreting that behavior still requires context.
Trust ends the accounting
Do openly admits to keeping track of reciprocity. That sounds at odds with his claim that friendship is the most valuable thing he can offer. A ledger seems like the opposite of generosity.
His distinction is temporal: he keeps track while trust is still being established. Once someone is genuinely close, he stops requiring evidence from every exchange.
Reciprocity establishes trust; it does not have to become permanent accounting.
The evidence he wants is not an exact match between favors. A friend who receives academic help could contribute in another way. The important thing is whether that person demonstrates loyalty, consideration, and a willingness to look out for him.
For Kim, respectful companionship was often enough. For Do, it was not. Their disagreement exposes the problem with treating reciprocity as self-explanatory: people can believe in mutuality while assigning very different values to what each contributes.
A person can therefore feel generous inside a relationship the other experiences as one-sided. Neither has to be consciously deceiving the other for that mismatch to matter.
Kim now describes a question that also appears in her work with clients: does the other person care? Not whether the connection feels intense. Not whether it began at an important moment. Whether care is present in the relationship that actually exists.
She recounts working with a woman who had carried feelings for a man she met as an undergraduate. They had never dated. Two decades later, even after marriage and children, the woman remained attached to an imagined alternative future.
Kim says the turning point came when she forcefully challenged the premise that this man cared about her. In Kim's account, that recognition broke the fixation.
The story is an account of one client's experience, not a general treatment prescription. Its relevance is the distance between emotional investment and mutual connection. Longevity alone had not made the imagined relationship reciprocal.
Do offers a different kind of longevity through his friendship with Rodrigo. After years of knowing and traveling with him, Do sees repeated evidence of character. He no longer interprets every helpful act as a possible transaction or a performance.
That trust changes how he spends his own attention. He thinks about what a close friend needs, what is holding that person back, and what useful idea he could send along. Help no longer waits for a balancing entry.
The contrast is not between caution and generosity. Caution determines where generosity can become less guarded.
This also prevents care from becoming a demand for limitless access. The related conversation Are You Actually Empathetic? How to Avoid Empathy Hijacking and Manipulation with Maria Ross names the neighboring tension between understanding another person and being drawn into an unhealthy dynamic.
Kim and Do approach that tension from different histories. She has had to stop making excuses for conduct that hurts. He wants to resist treating every imperfection as disqualifying. The shared standard is neither perfect agreement nor flawless behavior. It is credible evidence that the other person's welfare matters.
Closeness has to be chosen
Kim identifies an assumption beneath many of her earlier friendships: proximity made the decision. A classmate, roommate, or familiar presence became a friend without much conscious examination of what the relationship contained.
She sees a similar pattern among clients. The person is already there, so the relationship acquires a name. The name then begins to carry expectations that nobody necessarily chose.
Her family supplied warnings without much affirmative guidance. Her parents corrected her habit of calling everyone a friend. But, she says, they did not explain clearly what friendship should look like instead.
Being told what a relationship is not does little to establish what a healthy one requires.
Her father also maintained that friends were unnecessary. Kim rejects that position. She describes seeing loneliness and a need for companionship within her family even when the need itself was denied.
Do agrees with the narrower warning: calling everyone a friend can dilute the word. His concern is precision. If the same label covers a passing acquaintance and a person who consistently shows up, it conceals important differences.
Yet he accepts that other people place friends at the level of family. A chosen relationship can hold exceptional meaning precisely because neither person was born into the obligation. He does not insist that his hierarchy must become everyone else's.
Kim is more cautious about what the language of chosen family can conceal. Someone seeking relief from unmet family needs can assign expectations to a friend without ever stating them. The other person then feels the pressure of an agreement that was never actually made.
That is where the discussion becomes practical. The task is not to copy Do's tiers or adopt Kim's threshold for leaving. It is to make the relationship's assumptions visible before disappointment becomes its dominant language.
Their examples suggest four areas for examination, not a formal diagnostic test:
- Define what being a friend actually commits each person to doing.
- Distinguish repeated behavior from a single disappointing encounter.
- Notice whether company feels supportive, diminishing, or persistently unequal.
- Examine expectations inherited from family before assigning them to friends.
The roommate story adds a further challenge. Kim knew how to leave before she knew how to say that something was wrong. Her experience shows that choosing distance and communicating discomfort are separate capacities. One does not automatically develop alongside the other.
Do's tiers add another option. A relationship can lose privileged access without becoming a declaration of war. Someone can remain welcome in a wider social circle without receiving the time and attention reserved for a trusted few.
That makes change less theatrical and more precise. A person does not need to be condemned for a relationship to become less close. Equally, a shared history does not require the same access forever.
The final standard is demanding because it cannot be satisfied by a label. Calling someone family does not establish care. Calling someone a best friend does not settle mismatched expectations. Remaining familiar does not prove that the relationship still fits.
Do's definition strips away the status and ceremony: “It's the willingness to give of yourself to the other person.”
The title of friend cannot substitute for the behavior.
TRANSCRIPT
We've been friends for, I don't know, 40-ish years now. I remember in the first six months, I was pretty uncomfortable. I was super excited.
I got to talk to you. I got to do the Clubhouse Mod Squad with you and Lola and Martha. But there was a part of me that was seeking validation.
And in the back of my mind, when I finally pulled that thread out from my subconscious, it was because... Maybe I'm smart because this person who I deem smart will think I'm smart, right? So therefore I must protect that at all costs.
But my whole method or MO in life has been as soon as I find something that I'm uncomfortable with, I rush straight for it. So I'm the person where if I F up, I'll tell you I F'd up because having the weight of that hanging over my head will be far worse. It's like, I won't be able to sleep.
I'll just be miserable. So I'm just going to tell you straight out. And every time I've had these moments of thinking, God, Chris is going to think I'm dumb or I'm so lazy or whatever it is.
I always reach this point of acceptance because I'm like, I can't control what Chris thinks. And if he chooses to think that about me, then there's nothing I can do because I'm going to be me and I cannot pretend to be otherwise. So if that's what happens, then that's what happens.
Well, on that note, Jewel, I think we're very much on topic to explore the idea of friendship, what it means to be friends, or there are different tiers of friendship and how somebody might move closer or further away from your inner circle of friends. Stick around. We have different definitions of friends.
All right. Well, what's your definition? You go first.
To be honest, I haven't been really thinking about this, but I was telling somebody recently I think I have four categories and I move people in and out of one category to the next. There was one which I would say is where I would put my wife and my kids and my parents and my siblings in. The ones that I would lay down my life to save their life.
The one that my money is their money. They can do whatever they want. The tier next to that one is what I would consider my deep close friends.
I'll do a lot for you. I will not die for you because tier one friends takes priority over that. But there's a lot that I would do for you.
I'd get your back. I'd go out of my way to help you. I'd give you my time and my resources.
And then there's the tier after that, tier three, which is I would consider them friendly acquaintances, people who I know, but aren't quite ready to do that. And the difference between tier two and three is would I go to the airport to pick you up? Tier two, I'd do it.
I'd probably be muttering under my breath, cheap bastard, go get an Uber. Tier three, I would not even consider it. that's where most people i think live in my life is tier three then there's tier four which is i don't really know you that well and i don't want to be anywhere near you and so people are moving from one tier to the next all the time i'd like to say that most people want to meet them they're between tier two and three and i offer up a lot of things to see how they behave And based on how they demonstrate their values or beliefs, I move them up or down.
But I don't always make it on the first demonstration of something because, as you know, I'm one who really likes to collect data points. And so when I feel like I have enough data that it moves beyond the hunch or intuition, then I can pretty firmly say you're going to remain a tier three friend in air quotes. Wait, so I want to know.
As do the audience, I'm pretty sure. What are some of these tests or ways that you know? I can't tell people that, Jewel, because then people know what to look for.
But I have a philosophy around this. And by the way, clearly tier one is a very small finite group of people. Very small.
Tier two is what I would consider quite small too, because I think there are probably less than 12 people who are in the tier two group. and then the vast majority of the tier three group i'll help you i'm gonna always be kind to you i'm not so sure about you and then we get into like you're kind of dead to me tier four so my philosophy is this is i believe i'm a humanist which is i believe that humanity is capable of doing very good things that i want to believe in this kind of positive optimistic look on people and when i first meet you i just assume you're tier two three material And I feel like the greatest thing I have to offer anybody is not my money. It's not my knowledge, but it's my friendship.
I think that's the most valuable thing I have to give to anybody. Because if you're my friend, there's a lot that will do for you. And it's like the goose that lays golden eggs.
So if you're friends with me, the goose keeps laying golden eggs. But if you want to kill the goose, you can have goose meat and you can have whatever eggs is laid at that point. But there's nothing left for you.
And I want to know. where people stand. So a conversation that my wife and I and some of my good friends would get into is like, don't you know they're just using you or what do you think they want from you?
Everybody wants something, right? And I said, yeah, I want something too. We all want something from each other.
Companionship, an ear to like hear our stories, a wall to bounce ideas off of, someone who's going to reciprocate in some different way. We want something. We want to also not to be lonely.
So that's something. But then some people want something that's nefarious. There's an ulterior motive.
So what I like to do is I like to expose myself to see how people respond to things. And as far as I can tell, people can pretend for a short period of time, but over any kind of interaction over a period of time, their true characters revealed and then I know who they are. So then that's when I withdraw my friendship and say, like, I don't I'm not mad at you.
I just know that you're not that kind of person. We don't have the same values. and I want to know.
So rather than prolong not knowing, I want to know sooner than later. So I give freely openly to see how people respond, depending on how they conduct themselves over a number of interactions. Then I kind of start to know, like, I think this person is somebody I'd like to keep in my life versus let's move them down to tier three and let's keep them there.
That's drastically different from how most of the people I know think through this. So people already think that I'm fairly complicated. And for me, I would say I have probably four tiers as well sometimes it's four and a half and maybe the only difference being in your tier four these are the people who are lumped in with i don't know you and also you're dead to me and so for me i i kind of have that separated out a bit because they're just the people that i don't know and maybe you're a little bit more optimistic in that way where you're like as soon as i meet somebody i'm just going to assume you're tier two or tier three material And for me, there's all the people I don't know.
And then there are the people that I once have known. And I have found that they have acted in ways, they hold certain values that are just the antithesis of what I stand for. And I cannot stomach their presence in my life.
So they're like the anti-friend. It's like, I don't want anything to do with you. And if we were to get really technical here, I'd probably have the exact same number of tears.
I think the key difference between you and I, based on the time which we spent together, I would say, and please feel free to disagree with me, that my speed to judgment is quite slow. Despite how I'll tell people I'm really impatient, I'm actually not that impatient when it comes to deciding whether or not a person's worth keeping in my life. There are people who do things that are not aligned with my values, who might say things I think are asinine, but I also think they probably think what i'm saying is pretty stupid too so i leave room open for people who don't have the exact same value set i just keep them in that third tier like we can be really friendly to each other and i'll hang out with you but i i'm always kind of on the edge like i'm not sitting here thinking about you all day i'm not sitting here thinking about how i can help you or serve you or anything like that but i think we can hang out whereas i think other people Once you cross that threshold for them, you get put in the dog pile, the doggy doodoo category, and you're kind of done.
I also believe in redemption and people having the ability to grow and change. So I never want to completely write people off to say like, when I say you're dead to me, I don't really literally mean that. It's just, I'm going to just do my best to kind of avoid you.
But if you are in my life, I'm not going to treat you poorly. I'm not going to go out of my way to hurt you. I agree.
You are... You say slower to judge. I just say you're probably filled with more grace or you hold more grace for other people.
And I have noticed this because in all the people that I've worked with, the people I know, even observing my parents, You're right. Most people are fairly quick to rush to judgment. And then what they end up looking like is like the flip-flopper.
It's like, oh, this person was so nice to me. I love them. They're so nice.
And then that person may F up or do something or just be having a bad day. It's like, God, that person is a B. And my parents are the prime example of this.
So that is one trait that I have noticed about you, which I'm not going to lie. Like every time I see it in action with some of the people that we both know, I'm like, wow. You handled that a lot differently than I would have.
So in terms of patience, I think just from looking back over my life, I've been a people pleaser for most of my life. I've been taken advantage of. Now, I'm not going to blame those other people.
That is my responsibility to look out for myself. But I have also noticed because of the people pleasing tendencies that I would ignore the data and I would ignore it for way too long. And I would just keep looking for excuses for people because at the end of the day, like you said, we all want something.
If it's not something that's tangible, we at the bottom line, we want to feel like we belong. We want to feel some sense of connection with each other, friendship, companionship. And these things really matter.
And I say this having gotten out of a couple of friendships over my life that at one point I thought they were my ride or dies. And then certain things came to light where I was just like, that is not forgivable in my book. So earlier when you were talking about, there are some people you meet where they have nefarious intentions.
There's some ulterior motive there. And when I look at what you said there, and then I look at the whole idea of different values, it's not that I think people with different values can't get along with me or vice versa. It all comes down to will their values eventually harm me in some way?
Or are their values more of the type where I'm like, you do you, bro, and I'm happy for you. That will not affect me or impact me in any way. And that's great.
But there are certain people where you just know certain values come to light. And that is the turning point. Yeah.
Well, see, I don't have this belief that anybody's values or their actions are going to hurt me. Even when people are like, "Chris, you should not associate with that person. That's a terrible person." I said, "So I can't exist outside of this other person even if they've done things that I don't know about, that I haven't been able to verify one way or the other.
If you want to judge me that way, then I don't think we deserve to be friends with each other." It happens a lot. It's like, "Hey, didn't you know that guy's a scammer?" I'm like, "No, and I don't have that time to research. If they've hurt you, I'm sorry, but I just don't know that yet.
I'll take it under advisement." I'll keep one eye open. I'll be careful in my dealings. I'll be careful not to overly promote or go over the top and say anything.
You know, when we talk about data points, like your parents are maybe quick to judge. Some people will judge purely on physical appearance. And that to me is like the most offensive where that person is really kind.
I'm like, how do you know that? They haven't said anything. Oh, they have really kind eyes.
I'm like, there's no such thing. Said every victim to a serial killer, right? they have very kind eyes conversely that person's like shifted up to no good based on what just you know just the way they look and that's a lot of bias and prejudging prejudice that come into play now i want to say that while at the same time saying oftentimes when you look at somebody you can tell You can tell, but I always need to make sure.
I have to just make sure. And if you've lived long enough and you're really carefully paying attention, there are certain physical traits. And I'll tell you what I mean by this, okay?
Someone who worries a lot will tend to furrow their eyebrow together. Like they'll press them together. And then over time, they get a crease here.
Someone's pursing their lips or just like smirking. The smile lines or the creases in their face will start to show. and if somebody's like squinting kind of always examining things their eyes over time take a certain shape and i think something happens there that sometimes if you're really really attentive to people's faces and their body it can say something it's not the full picture it's just a hint at the picture so i didn't want to say that now i know these two ideas are conflicting i just said literally one minute ago I'm always worried about people who judge people purely based on appearance, while also saying that I think some things, some behaviors can be read in the face.
And the reason why I want to draw a distinction between these two things is because the first person has no experience, has not been paying attention, but just going with societal or cultural norms based on appearance. physical attributes that's it tall people short people round people sharp angled people etc they're just basing it purely on that not that they've spent a lifetime studying and being attentive and watching people but this does remind me of a little story here you were talking about how your people pleasing tendencies will allow a person to stay within your circle group for way longer than it should at least in the past now put this out there it's hard to tell but there was a time in my life when i'm super nerdy that i'm really uncool and i'm just desperately just seeking some coolness and this is throughout grade school junior high and a little bit into high school i'm in junior high one of the few asian kids in a predominantly white school there was this guy and he was pretty cool and he had feathered hair he's hispanic and back then in the 80s feathered hair was a cool thing and He was taller and he had those bright b-boy pants with the nylon red pants with the zips on the side. He had the shoes with the fat laces, just trying to paint a picture for everyone.
He's Hispanic and girls just adored him. They aggressively adored him, if I just want to say it like that. I remember when he was talking to me, I was like, man, it'd be really cool if the cool guy liked me and if we're friends, mostly because that's what I wanted.
I wanted the cachet of the cool guy to anoint me as being cool enough. We'd hang out and talk for a little bit. He'd walk back to my house.
And then I found... then some of his behavior towards me was not, it wasn't reciprocal. He didn't think I was cool.
He didn't really want to be my friend. We'd walk together and he'd talk and I could just tell like he was being a little bit mean, like 10% mean. And I was just going to eat that like, because I needed him to say I was cool so that other kids would think I'm cool.
That's the currency of junior high. How cool are you? We don't care how much money you have.
We don't care how smart you are. How cool are you? And so that I can identify or relate to this whole people pleasing thing.
I'm a people pleaser too, but that's how it manifests itself. And then my dad saw him. It's like, who's that guy?
I don't like him. Now my dad doesn't know anything, but he can do, he can already tell. And it turns out he's not the greatest guy.
It's just girls adored him. He was a handsome Hispanic dude. So where did the conversation with you and your dad go about this guy?
I knew my dad knew because I knew, but I had to say, dad, you don't know him. but i knew and so my quote-unquote friendship or affinity towards this guy didn't last very long i was just trying to get into that circle you know like i don't want to be in the circle of nerds who get picked on and people beat up that's the circle i was in and i was trying to claw my way out of that hole man we were both nerds in our earlier years but I was somehow the kid that everybody wanted to at least keep around because I was useful. They could copy my homework.
They could cheat off of me and test. I'm like, yes, this is one manifestation of that people pleasing tendency, which I'm not proud of. But I usually didn't have people being mean to me.
And the only memory I have of someone being kind of mean to me, I found out the year later that her parents had been going through a divorce. So that actually explained a lot. But I have had experience with people after.
So in undergrad, there were people who always had that little barb, like what you're talking about, like 10% mean there's just something, a little bit of a poke or jab just out of nowhere, some passive aggressiveness or just a snide comment. And I'm like, but why? Like, I don't understand.
Because I go out of my way to be really nice to people because... you know, at the end of the day, I'm like, I don't see a reason for unpleasantness. And of course, like all people, I want people to like me.
So the first time that I really encountered somebody who was like what you're describing was actually one of my roommates. I'm a junior in undergrad, and this girl had asked me the previous year if I wanted to room with her. Now, I will say this about myself, which I think holds true for a lot of people.
So myself back then, I did not really think about the concept of friendship and what it means to have friends and how you go about choosing friends. Like the idea of choice did not exist on the table for me. And I see most people, especially my clients going through life where their friends, they pick up just from proximity.
There's no real conscious decision made on their part to say, does this person deserve to be in my life or not? Now, again, it's not like I'm actively weighing everybody out there. It's like, are they out to get me or not?
But at the end of the day, I do believe that we are able to sense whether that person holds good intentions towards us. And where I think it gets really tricky is when it comes as a mix. So the extreme cases on both ends are easy to spot, right?
You have the Mother Teresa-like person where you can just instantly tell, spending any amount of time in their presence, you know that They're 99% going to be trustworthy. They will never do you wrong. And then on the other hand, you have the people where you can tell it's the extreme opposite.
I think where most of us struggle are the people who are in the middle. You have a mix of virtue and sin like we all do. But I think the problem is, is you run into people where they don't have that sin portion under control.
They're not managing it. So this roommate I had in undergrad, I thought she was gorgeous. Like she was a lot shorter than me, but she had a great figure.
She was really pretty face, Chinese. And I was just like, wow, like this is going to be great. We hang out, we have dinners together and stuff.
And then over time, she starts calling me names. She calls me Big Bird. So you've met me in person.
Some people out there have met me in person. I'm kind of thin and lanky. So I have my torso and then my limbs are all like extremely skinny.
And I was bewildered by this. Like, I didn't understand why she felt the need to call me that. And it wasn't like in a nice, like funny joke, haha way.
It was like, God, you're such a big bird, like in that kind of tone. And I did not know what to make of that. I was just like, and those kind of comments kept coming back.
By six months, I was like, I'm out. I have to move out. I cannot take this anymore.
But it never occurred to me to talk to her and be like, hey, I don't appreciate this. This makes me feel not good about myself. I just moved out.
Never said anything to her. I can usually tell when someone has other motives because my skills of observation and paying attention to things started much, much younger than most people. So I knew what was going on.
Like when when I was like, hey, what's going on? Like, I don't remember the guy's name. Let's say his name is Rudy.
We talk a little bit. I really like your art. I do some drawing, too.
And back then I was pretty good artist, not great. And just mostly just doodling all the time. He's all you're pretty good.
You're actually better than me. I'm like, I'm not. So that's kind of like the in there.
And I just wanted to do everything I could to climb out of my social caste system, like I was at the untouchables level, you know, right? Basically for just comedy here. And there's a guy that I still know today.
at least on social media british kid long lanky double jointed glasses you know so he eased the bottom maybe he replaced the bottom so once he transferred into our school everyone picked on him and unlike the regular nerds he enjoyed being picked on because he would say smart alecky things all the time and people just roll their eyes or they would laugh he was more self-assured as a nerd but i was like god thank god somebody's not feeling the bottom so i just elevate by virtue of that but i didn't want to stay there i wanted to go up higher and unfortunately a lot of the people that i thought were kind of cool nerdy like cool because i moved so so many times it was like i was about to move to the next level with them and then boom sweep the leg new school new system gotta start over again and so that created a lot of challenges for me to have friends that i cared about that would care about me and it seems like outside of a handful of people our values are so different So I'll give you an example. There's another guy, his name is Chris, and he sat right behind me, alphabetical seating, I believe. So there's Chris Dell and there's Chris Myers, and he sat behind me in English literature class.
This is high school, and he never wanted to study vocab. And he'd always say, hey, what'd you get for this? And I'm like, God, I studied.
I'd give him the answer a couple of times. And then it became like, now he's just not studying at all. And he just asked me for all the answers.
He's like, hey, give me your first sheet so I can just copy you. And I was thinking, this is so uncool that you don't want to study, but I'm going to get in trouble because you don't want to do any work. So I wanted to say that I have my limits.
I can tell when somebody's using me clearly, not appreciative of anything that I was doing and just taking advantage of the situation. So after a while, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know.
You have to figure it out, man. Just have to figure it out. And I can also tell like later on when he was getting a little bit cooler and he would make a little snipes to try to exclude me from whatever the conversation was.
So I knew then I was like, okay, you do you, man. I'm good. And he was a kind of a class clown.
So I enjoyed his sense of humor, how bold he was. I remember one time we were in English class and our teacher, Ms. Corbell, she was like, Chris Myers, because he was in trouble.
And he was like, Ms. Corbell. And the whole class laughed.
I'm like, Americans, they're just They have guts. They'll say things like, can you imagine in an Asian school, this would never happen. And he said it in a kind of loving, not disrespectful way, but the fact that he echoed her back, like, let's see how you like your full name being said out loud.
And I thought it was pretty funny, but I wanted to ask you this question. When you said you offered utility to people because you're a smart kid and you're happy to share answers and things like that, I felt used. And so I stopped that.
When your intentions are revealed, I can see that. I don't want your friendship at that point. How did you feel about that?
Well, I'm going to throw this right out there super plain because my parents used to tell me that I was so nice, I was stupid nice. That tells you a lot about how I was as a kid. I was just plain naive.
Now, I was also extremely emotionally suppressed, repressed like most Asian kids are. I did not know how to recognize what feeling negative towards someone meant. So first off, for example, if you feel angry at somebody, it's usually because they've done something to cross your boundary.
They've done something that you don't like. That can potentially be harmful even or disrespectful. Those are going to be the most common scenarios for people out there.
But I didn't know what feeling angry meant because my parents had only ever taught me that being angry was something that was wrong with me and how dare I burden the others around me with that. So it depended. If someone, like most kids, if I helped them with their homework or they copied my homework or even copied my answers on tests, I would say most of the time I was motivated by empathy.
And even though I knew that some of the cool kids would only ever reach out to me because they needed my help with schoolwork and not because they actually wanted to hang, I didn't mind because I was like, I know what this is, as long as they were nice about it. I did have some people where they were just jack wagons. And it was almost like, what is it?
An attitude of condescension and entitlement and belittlement. And then those are the people where I would just pretend like I didn't hear them. I didn't want to help them.
they'd be like nudging me from beside me on a test. And I just be like, I don't know what you want. You know, it's like, what do you want?
So there were a very few rare instances of that, but for the most part, most of the people I helped, they were really nice about it. Now, Was I enabling them? Absolutely.
I know. Not great for the long run. So maybe this reveals a little bit of our value system here, because you're asking me this question before.
What are some of the tests that you'll do to see how people behave? I think it's about this sense of fairness and balance, reciprocity. I know you're not supposed to keep score, but I think it'd be foolish not to keep some kind of score.
At least that's my point of view. So the friend is like, hey, can I copy your test? It's like, well, will you study this other thing and then we'll help each other out or maybe you'll stay in line for something and then call me in.
Or if something bad were to happen, you would put yourself in front of arm and say, you know what, if you're going to mess with them, you have to mess, you're going to have to get through me first. But there wasn't that at all. And we're at an age where everybody's just still trying to figure out themselves.
And sometimes they could have been a really good person, but peer pressure, the need to climb your own social ladder. precluded you from doing what you knew was right in your heart. And so there are instances when I would befriend the class clown for whatever reason, because they're a little bit weird and loud and funny.
And I respected their intelligence and their humor. But I knew also inside, it's just somebody looking for attention, maybe because they needed it at home and couldn't get it. And so they're going through their issues, but I can't go that deep.
So I'm just saying, I don't think you're going to be a good friend to me. So loyalty matters a lot. And if I have that sense that, are you going to look out for me?
When we talk about the trust triangle, this thing that was developed by these two women who wrote the article for Harvard Business Review, I'm spacing on their name right now. And when they say you have high trust factor, it's because one of them is empathy. Are you looking out for me?
The other one is if you're authentic. So if you're not looking out for me, I don't feel like you have my best interest at heart, then I'm going to have to take you into tier three just gonna have to automatically move you there now here's the test that i tell my young friends and this has happened in my life and i will say this one because clearly i'm not looking for anybody right now because i'm happily married but when i was younger in college i remember sometimes most often times i would drive my friends had their own cars i didn't have a fancy car or anything but i would drive so we were working late into the night And we had to go and get our color printouts because we didn't have color printouts readily accessible to us. We'd drive to a 24-hour printing place.
And we'd pull over to a fast food place, get in the drive-thru, order our food. You know, all that's good. And one friend in the car would prepare my sandwich, whatever burger I was having, and the fries, lay out the napkin for me, and make sure I was eating.
And then they would dig into the bag because clearly I can't do that while I'm driving. And then another friend, I would order and they would just dig into the bag and start eating. Both of them were female.
Both of them eventually I had a relationship with. So the one that just started eating, I was like, okay, so I'm driving. I can't do this.
But your first intention is to make sure you're fed. And it didn't even occur to you that I can't eat. The other friend made sure I had food to eat first because I'm driving.
And then when I was ready and ready to go, then they would eat. One of them was my ex-girlfriend. The other one became my wife.
You can figure out who's who in the story. Every time I hear you tell that story, I love it so much. It's something that I don't know why you chalk it up to ADHD or autism.
That is one of those things where the person who just started eating, chowing down, like without even thinking about you, like that is literally a demonstration of selfishness right there. And I think selfishness is a concept that gets really misunderstood by culture everywhere, by people. And at the end of the day, I think where people get really messed up with the idea, the fear of being selfish is they think that it's putting yourself first.
And that's not exactly what selfishness is. It's putting yourself first to a degree where you didn't even consider the people around you at all. Like they didn't even enter your realm of consciousness.
That is being selfish. That one example is, Every time I hear it, I know that's exactly how Jason, my husband, he thinks too. He notices these things.
And it took me a long time. So I just got to give him kudos. You know, he cultured me.
Like he taught me, like, this is how you are around other people. This is how to be around other people. Because without him, there were all these cues that I was missing, which I think also added to the difficulty of forming friendships and maintaining for the long run.
So again, I didn't have a problem with having this transactionality in my friendships a lot of the times because maybe that's where they started, but then they would grow into something more. And I was okay with that. And to be honest, my intelligence has always been like the leading, like the entry point for most things, most of my opportunities.
I felt sorry for some of the people I knew in school because I knew that I was gifted academically in ways that perhaps they didn't have those opportunities. They didn't grow up with the same kind of tiger parenting for whatever reason. So I would help them in whatever way.
And I didn't feel like I was better than them or anything because I could see that they had gifts in other areas. So when you're talking about, well, if I'm helping you with this, maybe you can help me with these other things. For me, just having their friendship, their companionship, it was enough as long as they treated me with kindness and respect.
that would not be enough for me, clearly. Because I'm thinking we're friends, so we're equal there. And if I'm doing this and you do nothing, then we're really not friends at all.
Like, I don't hold your friendship as a gift to me. It's a shared thing. Like, you don't pay my setting habits with your friendship.
It's a lopsided trade. Well, I guess that comes down to how you're defining friendship. And I like that you said it's a shared thing, which I agree.
To me, friendship is spending time together, sort of almost like sharing of yourself with this other person, sharing your views and, you know, getting to know somebody. There is an energy exchange there. And obviously, as a child, I never thought about that.
But as an adult, I'm very aware of this now because I'm I have a lot less energy than I did as a child. I have certain health conditions. And at the back of my mind, I am evaluating, does this person care about me?
So I looked it up, your trust triangle people. So if anybody wants to look this up, you can go look it up. There's an article on HBR for it.
It is the single most thing that keeps coming up in my work with clients is this idea. Does that person even care about you? I say this from having worked with people.
Like, for example, there's this one woman where she'd been carrying a torch for somebody for 20 years. She met this person in undergrad. They never went out, but she had strong feelings for him.
So again, a relationship of proximity. She'd also never had the experience of having a boyfriend before. So he happened to be the first male figure she ever spent unchaperoned time with.
So of course, what happens? You know, not a surprise. they don't end up going out.
And then she enters this phase of unrequited love. And I'm saying this even after she gets married and has children, she's still thinking about this guy 20 years later. And she hates herself for it because she keeps envisioning this other future that could have happened, this friendship and maybe something more.
And she, I'm not joking, she did not break out of the cycle until the day that I almost, not yelled at her, but I was running out of patience because this kept coming up as a topic for more than a year. And I was finally like, do you understand that this person does not care about you? He does not care about you.
And finally, that was the thing that broke the spell for her. So if you're listening to us talking about this, I want you to just ask yourself. I'm not saying you got to purge all your relationships out of your life.
But when I said earlier, does this person deserve to be in my life? Does this person deserve to share my time, share our time with each other, my resources, or just even get to know me? That is essentially the question I'm always asking myself.
Does this person care even one iota about me? And if they do, how much? So I'm not sitting here calculating to kingdom come by any means.
But at a certain point, I do think that the person's values will come to light. And sometimes it's in a way where it's almost like being splashed in the face with cold water. I'm just like, oh, I have a problem with this.
And I know I'm going to keep having a problem with this. We are probably not compatible as friends. I want to say this because it's a concept I heard from Sharon, who spoke recently at the Ford conference by my friend, Neil Dhingra.
He said that there's this rule I have 10, 10 forever. He goes, most of your important business and personal things, transformation that you're going to have are going to come from your circle of friends. So he said, who are the 10 people that I'm going to make 10 times the effort to be their friend forever?
So the 10, 10 forever rule, 10 people in my life that I'm going to make 10 times the effort so that they're friends forever. and he was talking about the relationships he's had with people and how seven years ago this happened and then today something wonderful has happened and it's it's just been that way and one of his rules is these kinds of friends you never keep score you can never keep score so i i want to bring this concept back up because i said i do keep score until i don't have to keep score so when you're in that tier two group you're already really close to me there's not a lot that i would not do for you at this point i stopped keeping score But until then, I'm most definitely keeping tabs because I'm highly sensitive to people who are like, I wouldn't use the word selfish. I'll use the word not thoughtful, not considerate.
The general thing is, and I don't know where I got this from, probably from my parents is you drive, I'm paying for gas. It's pretty clear, right? I mean, to think about it, you not only are using your vehicle, you're adding miles to your car.
It's your insurance. You have to make the payments for the car. A full tank of gas, depending on what day of the month it is and what economy we're in, could be $65.
It seems like it's a pretty affordable thing. Because when somebody drives you or picks you up in an Uber, especially in LA, it's going to be at the minimum $30 and it can be way more than $65. So if I fill your gas, so when you pull over to the gas stop, I'm going to jump out.
Not only am I going to pay for it, I'm going to pump the gas. That's what I would do. And that's my standard.
Now, you don't have to do all that stuff. But I'm watching you. So you sit in the back, you put your feet up on the back of the other seat and you're sitting there and you're just chilling.
I kind of start to get indicators to who you are and how thoughtful you are. And I want really thoughtful people in my life. So present company included, there's a handful of people that I've seen them demonstrate time and time again, where I'm like, it's not a game they're playing.
It's not a long con or people who keep showing up. and showing up and they do things for you, with you, without even you asking and they go that extra mile. And I kind of use this as a quick test.
My test is this. If we're walking the street and for whatever reason, somebody gets into argument with you and we're going to get into like a physical altercation, would you, with that question, jump into that regardless of what the odds are, regardless of the reason who's right, who's wrong and the justification? Do you got my back?
And if I can say yes, then you get put in a different circle. That would be my circle of 10. I no longer keep score.
And it turns out because of the kind of content that we make, the kinds of people I attract into my life, there's a handful of people that I feel like have my back. And one of them, because we've traveled together, I actually know quite a few of them. His name is Rodrigo.
And he's the tall Brazilian guy that hangs out with me. And so over the course of five or six years, I've gotten to know him really well that I can just see the character of the person. At this point, he's either the world's best con man, or I'm an idiot, or some other version, which is he's a really good guy.
And I'm gonna look out for this guy, because we look out for each other. I'm not looking for trade for trade. But I just feel that he's looking out for me, and I will look out for him.
So there's a handful of people and I say handful quite literally, because there's less than five. that i'm sitting here thinking how can i help this person like what is it that they're stuck on and if i see something interesting i want to send it to them so that's what i say like my the greatest gift i have to give anybody it's not my money it's not my knowledge it's my friendship i'm going to ask a dumb question what is friendship to you it's the willingness to give of yourself to the other person is that okay definition for you I think so. That works for me, especially I think given what I've already said in the past half hour or so.
It's the sharing of your mutual energies and essences, I suppose. And I think where we run into trouble with the idea of friendship is some people, it's only like on or off. And I think that's when you run into a lot of trouble.
You don't have enough discernment in the nuances and the different shades or tiers of friendship. That used to be me for a long time. But I'm also curious, in these very specific scenarios you've mentioned, such as driving and getting out of the car and pumping the gas and paying for the gas, how much of that was modeled by your parents?
I don't know if it's, my parents are very thoughtful people. They don't want to impose on anybody. They're very mindful of how they're in a person's place and space and they look out for people.
But in terms of the car and driving thing, it's probably my brother that I get to learn these values from. My older brother's four years older than me. You know, he's like, hey, I'm going to pull in.
I'm going to put the money in the thing. Go pump the gas. So he's kind of training me to be a thoughtful person.
I can't pay for gas, but at least I could pump it. And then while I'm out there, I'm like, oh, let me grab the screeching, like wipe down the windows or something, or let me empty the trash out of the car. We're constantly looking out for each other.
And I think that's clear because it's a family thing. Like we're siblings and we should look out for each other. He clearly looks out for me.
I think maybe that's where I start to learn this, pay attention to what's going on. Man, you and I have grown up so differently. Because I remember with my parents, I would say, oh, I have this friend at school, and everybody's my friend.
And my parents would correct me. They would say, no, that person, that kid is not your friend. You need to stop saying everybody in the world is your friend.
But they never really... took the time to explain to me on the affirmative side of what friendship is. For them, it was only ever, "It's not that, it's not that, it's not this." Right?
So then it's like, how do you learn what something is at a certain point? You kind of run into a wall. You can't only exist in the negatives always.
Now, I have had the same kinds of dynamics with my siblings. And I think this is where perhaps it's a little different because you're a middle child, but I'm the youngest. So as the youngest, I think I had a little entitlement or maybe a lot of entitlement of being spoiled by my older siblings.
And they weren't just older, they were a lot older. You know, the closest sibling to me was... nine, almost 10 years older than me.
That's a lot. So I had this expectation that they would like take care of me and they in return had the same towards me. So in the same kind of scenario, like you laid out, yeah, my sister or my brother would ask me to do something, you know, while they were pumping the gas, but it never felt like a pleasant request.
It didn't feel like people on equal footing. It was more like an order. So it came for me, it landed, and I reacted with resentment because it was more hierarchical.
It was more about authority rather than this is how you get along and this is how you be with other people instead of being like a savage from the jungle. And I am not joking. It took me so long to understand these things as people interpersonal dynamics.
Now, again, my parents, I don't even know if it's both of them. Honestly, I think it's just my dad. He has a philosophy on friendship, which I just don't agree with.
He constantly tells me, you don't need friends. And he says, stop calling everybody friends. And I have grown more conscious of my usage of the word.
So there is this thing, too, you know, in just passing conversation, you're not going to say, oh, that that person in tier three or tier four acquaintance circle of my friendship. You're just going to say a friend for convenience. And there's some of that just ease of speaking there.
But my dad, I'm not joking, even this year, he was still berating me on the idea that you need friends because he still thinks you don't need friends. And I found that my brother, who recently passed, he also held to the same idea. And yet, almost all of his choices in life, I can see, are motivated from this deep need for companionship because he was so lonely.
And I don't understand why my dad continues to paint the picture that needing friends is somehow a weakness. I think your dad has a point to the, not everyone's your friend, because maybe he's looking at you like this naive little girl, his baby girl, and saying, they're going to take advantage of you. Be mindful.
You're going to get duped. You're not a street smart kid. And I do know you well enough when you say, it took me a long time to learn these social cues and how we move in the world.
Shane's joking around, guys. Dude. That's not a figure of speech.
That's like for real, real. That's literally what happened. So I think calling everyone your friend weakens the word friend.
That's kind of an important thing. Like I say, be careful when you say love because it's like if you use the word love to everything, then love means nothing. So when you actually mean it, it loses any real power.
And so for something to have power, you have to use it sparingly. So when you say yes to everything, then your yeses have no meaning, no power. But when you say lots of no's, when you finally say yes, like, wow, she must really like this thing.
Or she really wants to go to this event, not just because she says yes to everything. So when you call somebody, hey, my friend, it should mean something. Okay, what about the flip side?
There are lots of people, some of these people we know in common, where for them, I would say they attach a meaning to friend that is actually above, like even more. So for instance, for them, friends are the same as family. What are your thoughts?
I think everyone's allowed to use the word the way they want to use it. And if it means more to you, then great, that's fine. I'm just using it for my definition.
I'm not saying my definition is any more important or relevant than you. I'm not saying my definition is any more relevant than yours. So use it however you want.
I suspect that people who elevate the word friend to family level is for a couple different reasons. Number one, maybe their family's not that great. And as the expression goes, you can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family.
And sometimes our family members should be our best friends, but they're not. And so we hold a special place for friends that feel familial to us that are on that level. Like my sister from another mister, my brother from another mother kind of thing.
And I think because it's by choice, it's even more powerful. It's like you weren't born into this. You didn't have to be friends, but you became friends.
So I think that's totally cool. I respect that. And, you know, there's a funny side story here.
As Regal has been out here in L.A. for a couple of months, I guess it's his fourth month anniversary or something like that. He's been here for three months.
And he shot a little Instagram stories and he goes, Hey, I'm out here in LA living the dream with my best friend, Chris, and just, just doing something light. And he posted and his sister, I'm sorry, I'm just telling the story out of school here. She got mad at him.
She goes, Drigo, I thought I was your best friend. She was all hurt about it. And here you are calling Chris, your best friend.
And they are really good friends. I admire their closeness. They talk to each other all the time.
They go travel together. They work together. It's not a relationship I have with my siblings, but not the one that I really want to have in that way.
It's almost kind of weird how close they are. And I admire it. At the same time, I don't want it.
But she was hurt. That's why it's like we have to be careful when we use language like that. I don't think Driegel was saying, I consider Chris a better friend than my sister, who I've known all my life or all her life.
He was just throwing out there as a term of endearment. But I still think you have to be careful when you use those kind of terms because you're going to hurt somebody. I mean, you know my stance on being precise with your language, which I don't think my family shares the same view, at least not to this degree.
And I find that with people, so this is where I go back and forth. You are aware of some of the dynamics within my family. I refer to my family as dysfunctional all over the place.
And that's not an exaggeration. It's because I consider our family unit to not hold the ties between each family member as cohesively as a family could be. And in fact, any chance or opportunity there is for misunderstanding, it will go that route.
It's almost like none of the people in our family even try to take the higher road or, you know, so. For a long time, I was attracted to that idea of friends are the family you get to choose. But then I find that it comes with these blurred expectations.
And I think that's where people who are seeking friends from a place of addressing a need within themselves that they're not even aware of. And then they put all of that these unmet needs onto the people they become friends with, that's when it starts to get kind of tricky. So then you have expectations that aren't ever really spoken aloud.
And then the other side can feel there's something. But again, the communication is often not very clear as it could be. And then it starts to disintegrate.
So that's where I would say you don't have to have the same views on friendship as me and you. But I do think it would behoove everybody to take at least a few minutes and just think about what is a good friend to you? How do you define a friend?
What is friendship? Who are the people in your life where when you're around them, you feel really good and you know they have the best of intentions towards you? The people who make you a better person just by being in your life.
versus some of the people who may not have that same effect on you. It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Hey everyone, this is Rich, the producer of The Future, and we're going to take a quick break because Chris has a message he desperately wants to get out.
And that is this: every day you post, you disappear a little more. You read your caption back and you think, "This could be anyone." Here's the actual brutal truth. The more you try and fit in, the less you stand out.
Chris learned this after 20 years building a multi-million dollar creative business. And for years, he'll admit he played it safe. Professional, polished, sounding just like everyone else.
And then he stopped. He's an award-winning designer who also loves streetwear. He's a CEO who quotes hip-hop in business meetings.
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And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation. I would go a little bit more based emotion.
A friend to me is someone who you feel completely safe to be yourself. Before they look out for you, you just need to be able to say like, do I have to pretend to be somebody in front of them? And then ask a deeper question.
If I have to be someone else, is it because of my own doing or because they treat me a certain way? If you can pass gas in front of somebody, you're pretty close to that person. You could be anybody you want to be.
If you can open the door, greet them in your sweatpants and your dirty shirt that you slept in, teeth unbrushed, hair messy, no makeup and skin all greasy and oily. You're like, hey, come on in. Just sit over there and you don't feel the need to clean up your house before they come over.
To me, that's like, that's a friend. So you have to feel safe to be around them to be yourself. And I think that's the foundation which things get built up from.
Do you trust this person explicitly? Right? So if you say, here's $1,000, go to the market and grab me this, you're not worried that they won't return.
So safety and then trust, and then are they looking out for you? So if they get something good, do they tell you about it? Do they save your spot in line versus saying, oh, just getting that back of the line?
Do they hold your friendship above other friendships that they have? This is kind of critical too. Because if being your friend has no hierarchy, which in maybe some utopian world, every friend is exactly the same, but if you hold no special power or pull, then really they're just saying to you, you're equals.
That means no matter what you've done together, what kinds of experiences, battles you've gone through, they hold you in no higher regard than any other person in their friend circle. It doesn't mean that you have to be their best friend. but i think it's a demonstration of friendship like i only have two tickets and the only two people i could think of are you and you versus like hey friend group anybody whoever says it first can have the tickets it's very different so i think we should be very selective about who we move in to the inner circle of the tier two friend but once they're in you can now just let your guard go you know how the expression higher slow fire fast i think friends slow, trust fast, like once they're in that circle.
I think that's actually a really good point to bring up here. Because I see my parents, they flip-flop, right? So they may think of somebody in that tier two, but then they're constantly being suspicious and paranoid over that person's actions, meaning something detrimental toward them, which is the part that drives me mad about them.
I'm just like, you're just looking for reasons to fire this friendship, in which case they never were a friend. Now in your list, okay, so I've taken note, safety, trust, looking out for you and holding this friendship above others. I thought it was interesting because I think for a lot of women, especially, they will have another layer here, which is, I don't know how to define the characteristic.
Maybe you can help me articulate it. But there's this desire to be understood of feeling like you're on the same wavelength, like you just get each other. I don't have a word for that.
When I talk to a lot of women, they are seeking that fifth element there. Not just in friends, but also in their relationships, their romantic relationships, that desire to be. Could it be shared values or insynchronicity?
I guess. I think this is the weird dynamic between women and men for fear of getting myself in trouble here. I think in some cases women want you to be mad when they're mad, be happy when they're happy and just have this universal emotional heart.
It's one heart. It's like hive heart. You heard of hive mind?
So high of heart is like a random word I just made up right now, which is, oh, I hate that girl. You hate that girl too? Yeah.
Without any evidence, without any firsthand experience, we're just going to hate them together. Oh, you love this record? I love this record too.
And just kind of be in heart synchronicity. And for me, it's like, I don't feel that compulsion right now. I just don't.
I'm sorry if that makes me a bad friend or partner. I'm just not a good partner in that definition. I don't want to impose my feelings about certain people and things onto you, nor do I expect you to have the same things.
Unless that person has gone out of their way to hurt me, then I have to just, for the sake of our friendship, distance myself. And this has happened too in my life, where I'm friends with someone who's dating two people, and then one person wrongs the other person, clearly cheating on them. Then I said, my God, I wish you didn't do that because I still care deeply about you, but I just can't show support for the friend that you wronged.
And therefore I can't be friends with you anymore. And I feel like a dirtbag. But in this instance, because it's not like just two random people fight about something, but clearly you're the aggressor or the person who perpetrated something that was not cool to the other person out of respect and care for the other person.
I can't be your friend right now. And I've lost friends this way. Dude, you are not the norm for a lot of the guys that I know.
And of course, it's not like I know thousands and thousands of men. But in that exact scenario where one guy sees his dude friend cheating on their person, they don't feel the need to end friendships over that. They're like, that's not cool, bro.
But they're not going to end that friendship. Whereas I have. I remember I was friends with this couple.
And I was actually friends with the guy first, became friends with his girlfriend. We even all lived together. He eventually cheats on her and then goes even further.
He hits her. Now, even before the hitting incident, I was already disgusted by this. And I could feel my connection to him like waning rapidly because again, lack of shared values.
So of course I was shocked when she goes back to him and I was just like, I have ended my friendship with this person who actually was friends with longer than I was friends with you. My God. So this thing that you're talking about with the high of heart, we see it demonstrated in TV shows and movies all the time, right?
Like you see the comedic character landing into a circle of all girls. It's like, all right, well, who are we hating today? It's like, who do we love?
Who do we hate? And it's a we. So yeah, that was on point.
Well, here's the funny thing about this example. And I don't know enough about this particular instance that you shared, but you were disgusted for you. She didn't say, Jewel, if you care about me, if we're friends at all, you need to distance yourself from Bobby.
And you're like, cool, I'm with you, girl. That's wrong. Like that was abhorrent behavior.
The cheating is one thing. The physical abuse is like, It's one of those things that you cross the line. You cross the line.
Don't lay hands on people. Girl to guy, guy to girl, just like, let's not resort to that. Now we understand we all have weak moments.
People make stupid decisions and they do, and they're seduced or whatever by gambling, by alcohol, by drugs, by other people. I get that. We're all human.
Some of that you can look past and say, like, who am I to judge you on that? Right. But I think in a case like this, you tell me you're disgusted because that's just not a person you want to associate yourself with.
Like for example, if you assault a person, SLE, assault a person and it's like, nah, that's a bridge too far. You crossed the bridge, I cannot come back from. We're done.
We're done. You rob a bank, I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm out. I'm out.
It's just too much, right? Home invasion, I'm out. I didn't, no.
Inexcusable. I don't care what their circumstances are. I would have given you the money.
Just don't. So I think this happens a lot with couples. This is why you don't get involved in couple disputes because they forgive each other but they'll remember that you disliked one of them and then they disown you and then they'll eventually fall apart and you won't have any friends out of that.
So correct me if I'm wrong, did your female friend say to you, "Hey, Bobby did this and you can't be his friend"? No, she never said that I couldn't be his friend. But she was always asking me for support, you know, crying like, this guy did this again.
I can't believe it. And I will say this too. So you're right.
Sometimes people, we make mistakes. We make the wrong choices. We hurt the people closest to us when we shouldn't.
We all have moments of doing that. So with this guy, what made the level of disgust that I'm talking about is that he could not even admit that he cheated. He kept spinning stories.
He would not admit. He's a liar. Yeah, he was lying and he wouldn't own it.
That was when it really started to escalate. I was just like, whatever. So there's many, many red lines crossed here.
You cheated, you hit somebody, and then you lie about this whole thing. You don't take account. This is not a person you want anywhere near you.
He then owns up to it years later. I'm talking like six, seven years later. And he said it was really hard to admit that to me.
And I was just like, bro, like we all know, like we all know. It's like she doesn't just make this stuff up out of thin air. But that was when the respect for him started to recover because he at least was able to admit that finally.
Yeah. So if somebody I write off, it's like once you're written off, I'm not in your circle, we're done. So how this guy is able to call us way back six, seven years later, I'm like, huh?
Well, isn't that part of redemption? We were never as tight again, for sure. It is.
But if you lie to me, I mean, the foundation of a relationship has to be built on truths. Like you can say, please don't tell her, but I'll tell you, yes, of course I did this. Why they lie to you is just, you don't trust me enough to tell me the truth.
That's problematic. So this is, I think, juicy. What do you do with a friend who may have lied to you once or even twice?
Once is all it takes. Now, there's got to be some kind of window of grace here. Impulsively, you tell me you lie.
I mean, you just lied right now. And then two days later, you're like, oh, Chris, I don't know. I'm so embarrassed.
I didn't tell you the truth about this thing. I'm like, cool, we're good. So what that exact window is, I don't know.
It depends on the relationship, the nature of what's going on. But it's not six years. After a certain point, I'm like, I'm kind of done.
Well, I guess this is an area that we're different. And it's not like I've had a ton of experience dealing with people lying to my face and then building subsequent deep relationships after that. But in my mind, for most people, you just don't know what might happen in the future, I guess, is all I'm saying.
What does that mean? So ambiguous. That people change.
Of course people change. Yeah. All right, let's enter another variable here.
How old was this person when they committed this crime? Meaning, are they 11? Yeah, I understand people change a lot.
If they're into their mid to late 20s, it's over. You know better. Well, with my friend that I'm referencing, a friend very loosely here, he was 20 in that relationship, right?
The couple I'm talking about. Still an idiot. Sure.
So that may be part of why I was unconsciously giving him more grace. That's fair. i think he he barely made that cut off there because you're still in college you're not that smart you're pretty you're an idiot let's just say both sides men and women you don't know anything you have you're full of ideas and hormonally you're you're technically an adult but you're not physically an adult your brain is still growing and developing so it's just I think there's some things that you can come back from, some things you cannot.
And we all have different definitions, right? Let's say, for example, you have a horrible addiction to drugs or something. Those, to me, are redemptive things.
You had an addiction to drugs. There was a chemical dependency on something. You made a lot of bad decisions when you're high.
There's a real reason why. Let's try and come back from that. We can do that.
If you were physically abused or something as a child and you act a certain way, I'm like the grace window is much bigger now. So backstory, relationship, what the offense is, how old you are, all that stuff matters to me. You know, like how judges weigh in on a case when they do sentencing.
If they're a fair minded judge, they factor into all these intangible things that in their minds, like this seems to be fair and just for this person. Like some people never have a fair start in life and they're just constantly battling an uphill struggle. Do they need one more person just casting them back down?
I don't think so. Well, I think what's interesting in all of these scenarios that you've outlined is they share one common element of things beyond your control. And so, yeah, I do think that most of us will find those circumstances to be more forgivable versus someone who actually lies to your face.
So then the question is, well, you know what you're doing or do you? That's the question I'm asking. So again, in the scenario with the judge, the judge who tries to be fair-minded, there's a reason why in the legal system we have this idea of capacity, mental capacity.
Are you aware enough in order to be held legally responsible for some of your choices? This is why children are not held legally responsible. It's their parents who are because their parents, you know, it's their children.
And then same with people who have some sort of mental condition. Maybe they don't have the capacity. So that's why children are tried as minors and not as adults.
There are special circumstances where 15 year olds who commit murder in the first degree or third degree can be tried as an adult because it's a number, age is a number, but they're trying to discern lots of different things like how mature, how developed are you? How, where are you of your actions? So, I mean, it's been portrayed many times in the movies.
You're in college, you have a couple of drinks, somebody's flirting with you, you make a bad decision. I think there's an opportunity for redemption there. Versus you're 45 years old, you start sleeping with an office mate and you carry on some kind of torrid affair, consciously siphoning money from your family and lying about where you are, making excuses.
about work-related needs. That's a very different scenario. So all those circumstances kind of factor in on how one wants to forgive or not.
And that's up to each person. It's not for me to say, but if you're asking me, that's how I would do it. Now, let me ask you this question.
When I tell people the greatest gift I have to give or offer anybody is my friendship, for some people, like, this guy's full of himself. Jesus, is that really? Come on.
I wanted to get your raw reaction. If you don't know the explanation to all this, Jewel, and I'm just telling you, the greatest thing I have to give to you is my friendship, and I prize it above gold, anything else I can give you material-wise. What's your reaction to that?
Then follow-up question is, how do you feel about that for yourself? Well, I think my answer is going to be pretty boring because it's like you're preaching to the choir. Whenever someone asks me how they can support me, the only thing I ever ask for is their friendship.
Like literally, that is what I always say. I would just like to start a friendship with you and see where this goes. So with you, I think even when you described talking about me to other people, and I think you told me that as far as you could tell, all I ever wanted was to be friends with you.
And I was like, yeah, that's totally accurate. So it's not that I'm thinking, oh, Chris is going to be the golden goose that continues to output golden eggs for me. It's because I think you and the other friends I have in my life, like my true friends, they carry certain qualities.
I find them fascinating. I find them enjoyable to talk to. I deeply admire and respect them as people for their characters and what they've built in life, whether it's something financial or success or family oriented, whatever it is, there's something that I really admire and respect about them.
Also, the fact that I can tell they only hold good intentions, not just towards me, but to almost all people within reason. Now, it's only been within the last, let's say, five years, mainly because of that car accident with my parents, that I could see vastly different reactions. And again, same thing with my brother passing away.
I can see vastly different reactions amongst all the people I know. So it's really interesting to me that some people are messaging me saying, Hey, you know, I really want to be there for you, but I'm sorry, I can't. I'm just not built like that.
And I was like, well, I appreciate that. But you are not the person that I would ever expect this of, right? Because I don't consider you in that to your friendship.
So we're all good, man. You didn't literally say that, did you? I did.
Not the tear part. You're not, we're not, you know, but it's like, this is our friendship. So yeah, I never expected this of you.
So we're good. That's what I said. You know, you don't have to say that either.
Yeah. You don't literally have to say everything that you're thinking and feeling because here's the thing. And, and, you know, we've had some comedic moments together in real life, Ariel, where if somebody says that to me, I said, I appreciate that.
If something comes up, I'll let you know. And I'm appreciative of the thought that you'd reach out and at least let me know what you're capable or not capable of. That's it.
So I kind of look at like, what is the person's gesture? What are they trying to say to me? And I don't have to filter through this kind of absolute brain.
That's all. Well, yeah, you're right. And I knew that you would never say anything remotely like that.
But the reason why I did with some of these people is because I could feel that they had pressured themselves into feeling guilty. So I wanted to absolve them of that responsibility that they were somehow holding towards me. And I was like, I don't expect that of you.
We don't have that level of friendship. What was their response to that? They're like, oh, okay.
Period? Or did they say more than that? No, they seemed fine.
Like I didn't- Okay. Because if it was me, it was like, "Joel, I know I need to be there for you, but I don't know how to process this the way that I think normal people would process. I got your back, girl, but I just can't process like that." And you're like, "No, bro.
I don't expect nothing from you." I'm like, "Fudge." trying to help out and he's got stabbed back i'm like jesus well i did say i appreciated it okay and you end the sentence i just appreciate you period you don't always have to explain everything i'm just saying just saying for everyone else who's challenged with friendships and expressing every thought you have there's just Hold it in. Hold it in. Hey, I do not express every thought I have.
Okay. That is just rude and unfair. I didn't say you.
I'm just like people. Some people feel compelled. I must tell you, you know, your socks stink.
Just deal with it for a minute. Well, maybe this is one difference amongst us or between us, because I've noted that your communication style is a little bit more indirect, whereas you've told me before multiple times that on a scale of one to 10, I'm a 12 for directness. So you are.
Yeah. But, you know, so let's talk about this communication style for a second. When things are critical, it is important for you to be really clear and direct.
Is my hair on fire? Yes. Do these shoes match this purse and this dress?
No. One to 10, 4.3, the outfit. That's important to be clear and direct.
Do people in this room hate me? Yes, they do. But it's like, hey, I'm just reaching out, telling you how much I care about you.
I just know how to be there for you. Let's turn that directness off for a second. Just say, appreciate you.
means a lot that you're reaching out to me right now. Well, again... You have to turn the dial.
Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not. It's not always 12 all the time. Dude, I do turn the dial, making me sound like some kind of monster here.
No, no. Just... socially challenged there is some of that not gonna lie but but again i had a reason for this so i would say my goal is always to be direct not blunt and if you're asking me what's the difference blunt is the person who is that unfiltered directness never turns the dial down because they're never even considering the impact their words would have on other people whereas i am and if i think someone can take it then i'm probably going to say it now Sometimes I may not look far enough ahead, which definitely has happened, but not as often these days.
Partially thanks to your friendship and your guidance. My gentle, supportive guidance. Gentle.
Yeah. - Dude, you have moments of being the cutthroat Asian dad too, okay? It's like, that's ugly.
Don't wear that again. - Yeah, when necessary. But I would never say that to you unless you asked me.
That's the difference though. I do not feel compelled to tell people my opinion unless directly asked. Now, if I know you're insecure about something and I really, this is how you know I really care about you.
Okay, this is the tip here. If I really freaking care about you, I will give you blunt feedback when you're not even asking for it because I believe I'm willing to deal with the awkwardness of telling you this truth because I think you're going to be more damaged by it if I don't say anything. So the classic example is you have broccoli in your teeth or something.
Are you going to be hurt by having broccoli on your teeth? No. But I know that you don't want to appear in social circles and situations where everybody's looking at you like, "The idiot girl has broccoli in her teeth." And then later on you slap me on the shoulder, you donkey.
You saw me earlier. Did you see that I had broccoli on my teeth? I'm like, "Yeah, I couldn't say it because it was so awkward." You sucker.
Or if you had BO or something, I'm like, "Whew." You're really ripe right now, Joel. I would strongly recommend you shower and shave and do what you got to do because you stink right now. Quite literally, this had happened.
I don't want to say the name because I don't want to embarrass this person, but at work, somebody came into work and I could smell from just high heaven. It's like, oh my God, who is it? I'd walk around the office.
I literally said, somebody in this room does not smell good. And I found the person. I'm like, and I said it very quietly not to embarrass them in front of everybody at this point because now I knew who it was.
And I'm like, yeah, nobody's going to tell you this, but you got to change. Your outfit is just reeking. I know you cannot smell it, but everybody can smell it.
Okay. And they're really, I smell. I'm like, yeah, yeah, you do.
Like on levels I've not smelled you before. And then they would get cleaned up. And then a couple of times it was clean.
And then every once in a while it was stinky. And you know, this happens a lot. This has happened to me.
I'm really embarrassed about this. You know, sometimes when you wash your clothes and you leave it wet for too long, put in the dry, put it on one of those dryer fabric things in there and it has the illusion of smelling okay. But I think what's happening is when your clothes are wet for that long, bacteria, it's bacteria pee, I believe, and it stinks.
And it might be okay once it's in the dryer, but once it gets moist again, all that stinky aroma comes right back out and you smell sour and it's horrific. The problem is when you wear it, it slowly becomes sour on you so that you're it's like the frog in the boiling water, or at least the myth goes, it doesn't realize it's boiling until it's too late. You don't realize you stink until somebody tells you.
So we all could use a friend like, yeah. I like how all of your examples are physical. There's something like physically or visibly apparent.
It's a lot easier to talk about it that way, though. Okay, what's the most awkward thing that you've given feedback or advice to somebody where you were blunt? Unsolicited?
It's relationship advice. So one of my friends, quote unquote friends, basically a college classmate, was dating some guy. And I met both of them.
and she's hanging around being we're just chatting about something then i said to her how long you guys been dating she's like five years i'm like leave him she's like what i said leave him And she goes, what do you mean? Well, I think the fair trial period for wifey mid-servants was about two and a half years. He ain't going to marry you now.
He's never going to marry you. And are you okay with that? She goes, no, I'm not okay with that.
And later on, I didn't realize this. She broke up with him because of what I said. They got into a fight.
They talked about this. And years later, she got married to somebody else who she's been married to ever since. And when she broke up with that boyfriend that I was mentioning, She goes, "You made me break up with my boyfriend." I'm like, "I didn't make you do anything.
I didn't even realize you were listening to me." But she goes, "You know what? You were right though. Enough's enough.
We're on two different timelines. Not a bad guy, just on two different timelines. His timeline is infinite.
Your timeline is finite." I said that and I have caused a few relations to break up in my lifetime. What were their reactions when you gave your opinion? They were shocked.
Well, when I say they, it's one of the two. I don't say like together, like you should get married now. They're like, what?
Because they're not sure what normal is and what's fair. So this is in business and in life. We're not quite sure if people are stepping all over us and boundaries have been crossed until we hear what someone else thinks is normal and gives us some example.
So I said, two two and a half years that's kind of like the time right you've been dating you've been sleeping with each other you've been living together that's enough time already you've tried everything out it's time to make the next level of commitment and move towards the stage of getting engaged or possibly getting married or saying this will never be and are you cool with that and that's totally okay too but if your intention is to get married and the other person's intention is not to get married with you and you owe to yourself to get yourself out of that relationship So I tell the person I care more about, like, because you're my friend, I'm going to tell you this, this ain't going to happen. And I say it with the full risk of the possibility of both people getting mad at me and losing one and a half friends. But it's a risk I'm willing to take sometimes.
Has that ever actually happened? Losing the friendships? Yeah, it has happened.
That's how I know this lesson. Because like you said, in the other situation where that friend hit the other person, You wind up in the doghouse. They're like, how could you say this about me?
So this is the worst part. You tell the one friend, yeah, I don't think that person's good for you. And that person has no spine, doesn't understand confidentiality, goes and tells their partner, says, you know, Jewel, Chris said this about you.
And I'm not sure I agree with them. What do you think? And like, F that, you know, F mother Jewel and Chris.
I'm done with those mother truckers. Okay. And then they come and read you the riot act.
You're like, fudge, I was trying to help you. You did me dirty. And that is one of the red lines for me too.
i tried to help you at great risk to my friendship to you and to this other person the the thing that you did was very cowardly you wanted to have this conversation but you weren't ready to have it in a direct and honest way so you invoked my name to pull me through this and then of course you coward and this is it i don't want a friend like that so we're done too you're in category four dangerous to do this though I don't know if I can recall any instance like that. I'm sure it's happened where I've said something and then they've repeated it to the other person and then gotten me in hot water. But I think I just chalked it up, especially in undergrad, I chalked it up to them being stupid.
But today, yeah, I do count it as a really big deal if I've told you something in confidence and then you repeat it to other people. If I find out about that, you are a person I probably won't trust again, unless you do something drastically to prove otherwise. But it would take a lot.
Yeah, well, you and I, we talk a lot and pretty unfiltered. And if you tell me something that could help or hurt somebody, but I'm trying to use that piece of information to help this person, the last thing I would do is say in a way that could be traced back to you. That's the famous Trumpian phrase.
People are saying, so I've heard. So that people are like, well, who told you this? It doesn't matter.
And that's what I would go with. My direct self would and has gone back to the original source and asked them if I could share what they've shared with me to the person. And depending on what they say, then that's how I know what to do.
Let's talk about another condition here, friendship. Okay. And By telling part of the story, the person who's in this story will know who it is, but I hope to obfuscate some of this because I don't want anyone to feel bad.
If we are in a pool of friends that know each other and you know that something bothers me and there's an opportunity when the two friends speak and you don't tell your honest opinion about what's going on, you don't look after me, that does hurt me. It tells me you're not that kind of friend. So are you looking out for me when I'm not in the room and you have nothing to gain when you know if you said something you could prevent further damage between our friendships?
I don't know how else to describe that other than to say that. So when this happened to me, Jewel, I made a point to make it a point to the person. I said, so when this happened and you kept mums and in fact you encouraged the other person to do something that you knew I had problems with, you're demonstrating your level of friendship to me right now.
That's not a good thing. And so we kind of went at it for a bit. And the typical response to all this stuff is deny, deny, distract, deny, and then finally accept.
And the way that you accept this information and you make amends also matters a lot to me. So I know what people are doing because they're riddled with guilt. They know they've done something wrong.
And by being called out on doing the wrong thing, their natural reaction is to be defensive and to justify their way out of this thing. and i know that's a normal human reaction to do that because no one wants to just admit yeah i'm a selfish bastard i've done x y and z but given enough opportunity to just process and think it through you got to just let go don't dig in and say okay i did not do a courageous thing i failed you in this relationship i'm really sorry how can i make this right let me make it right that would be the proper response but if that doesn't happen then i'm like okay i'm going to move you at 2.8 if anyone is listening to this and is mildly confused i will just say it like this if you are watching two friends who are on a collision course together you're watching this wreck that's about to happen and you hold knowledge that could divert this that could keep this crash from happening would you do it and i'm saying In a lot of people's value systems, there would be people who would say, "No, it's none of my business." And then that would tell me, "I know where I stand with you." There are people like you, Chris, where you're like, "Why wouldn't you? Are you not a friend?
I see." Right? And so then on the person who is watching this wreck about to happen, does nothing about it, and in fact, gets defensive when they're confronted about it, and still holds to their guns, like sticks to their guns that they did nothing wrong. then that would be a sign to take a step back and perhaps evaluate compatibility in this friendship.
Because if you are never going to be that person, then again, I know what to expect of you. So I know I'm being deliberately opaque on this one, but let me try and set up an analogy or wherever we can understand. Okay.
Let's say I'm, I've taken upon myself to like really take care of this one apple tree. It's my prize thing. It's my hobby, my pride and joy.
And I'm very particular about how this tree is managed. I've been grooming it for like 10 years. It bears the best fruit and all this kind of stuff.
And for some reason, some apples go missing. I'm not quite sure what's going on, but it really bothers me because I've been pouring my heart and soul into it. So somebody is taking an apple from it.
And that person who's been taking the apples doesn't see that that's a problem. But because of our friendship, I have some boundary things. I'm like, Yeah, I prefer you don't take those apples.
And then another friend is having dialogue with a friend who eats the apples. They're talking separate from me now. I'm not involved in this conversation anymore.
This person then says, yeah, I'm planning on going back and eat more apples. I think Chris is totally fine with that. And the other person knows how much it bothers me.
It's like, yeah, I think that's a good idea. That's the problem for me. So you could say something at no risk to you saying, yeah, I would reconsider that.
I'm not so sure Chris likes his apples being eaten. And if he's not said it to you before, I know he really cherishes his apples. This is pride and joy.
So if you care about your friendship, I strongly discourage you to go back there and eat more apples. In fact, you may want to have a conversation with him about this, but this is my two cents. It doesn't even come at a great cost to you to say things like that because it's not a direct confrontation.
It's a side confrontation. So when something like that happens, I have to evaluate all the people in this relationship. I'm like, God, that sucks.
That really sucks. One person's oblivious. The other person, which is forgivable, the oblivious person, but that person's very aware but lacks the courage to speak up.
That to me is the worst of the two crimes, unfortunately. I think lacking the courage to speak up is definitely an issue, but sometimes you not only run into that, but the person doesn't even share the same sense of what is right versus what is wrong. So then that's another layer on this, I think.
Because again, when you have somebody who... so strongly defends themselves and their choices in that kind of situation it's like well i feel like it wasn't my place to say anything which again i know a lot of people out there would agree with it's like well then we have an issue here you know a lot of people would agree with that like it's not my place to say something and they would call you friend they would call me friend i don't know that i would vice versa yeah i wouldn't be very clear if anybody's listening to this if you wouldn't make the smallest gesture to look out for the other person that is your friend and you wouldn't use excuses not my place to say you're moving into tier four or tier three for sure no you were in tier three you're moving to tier four right now for sure you're about a bump away from being untouchable well everybody you heard it here do not take chris's apples you and i we talk a lot Every time we enter into something that is not one of the typical conversations we talk about, you're like, "I'm going to make a note of that." What was it about the idea of friends, definitions of friends that intrigued you initially? Can you remember?
I know oftentimes, sometimes these threads start a year ago or six months ago and it's hard to always pull on those threads, but was there anything else that was part of the initial intrigue about this topic? I don't think so. I think I've mentioned everything.
So I've been on a kick for the last two years to really... pull on the threads that are often almost invisible to us. We throw around ideas all the time without actually exploring in any meaningful sense what these things actually mean.
So one of the last times we talked about, I think I brought up the idea of respect and also responsibility, friendship was another one of those things along the same lines, especially because of the work I do with my clients. And for some reason, there was some synchronicity happening. So Despite having several different clients at the same time, sometimes I'll enter weeks where somehow every client is somehow talking about the same topic.
And friendship was one of those topics that week. I have a strange way of looking at friends and helping to determine what kind of category I want to put them in. In that I kind of lay out all the goods on the table.
It's kind of like this idea that if you're going to have a housekeeper, you need to know that you can trust your housekeeper. And rather than putting everything in a safe every time I leave and locking everything up and keeping cameras and everything, what I'd rather do is lay out small bills, little things that can disappear without too much notice to see if the housekeeper will take anything. And unless they're playing a really long con, if I don't see anything missing ever, I just like, I don't want to live like that.
I don't want to be around friends that I have to be watchful of because that's not a friend. I need to be able to trust you with the things that are most important to me. And that's really critical.
So in my larger self, like in terms of like all the other relationships I have with people, I'm going to leave the goods out on the table. And lots of people take the most obvious infraction of this is people don't even know me. It's like, "Hey, Chris, let's jump on a call.
Can you look at this thing? Can you review this? Can you give me a shout out?
I'm broke. Can you give me money? Can you hook me up with a job?" I don't even know you.
So I've even invited you in the house and you're already taking. So you get put into category five just from the jump, which is a block. I'm just going to block you right now.
If our first ever interaction is you just wanting to take something, I know exactly who you are. And I get it. You're hungry.
Perhaps somebody told you this the way to do it and you don't have discernment you weren't raised well So I can say now I also want to acknowledge something which is I can be a scary person to be around not my words their words Because what people will sometimes express is like you look right through me I think it's because that expression comes from I'm transparent you can see the inner workings in my brain that my intentionality and So that if I do something bad, you'll see it right away. If I do something selfish or greedy or is out of jealousy or insecurity, you'll see right through it. And I can be a very difficult person to be around.
And I'm not going to deny, I'm a pretty self-described observant person. And not a lot goes on without me noticing. So if you're afraid of being noticed because you're hiding, I'm not a good person to be around because I will see it.
Now I won't always judge you on it. I'm just like collecting data. But when I have enough data points, I'll come to a conclusion and that'll move you into a slot and there you will live for a long time.
That's why people are always kind of seemingly guarded and watching their P's and Q's because they don't want to be misinterpreted. I can already tell you that's a problem because if you're being you, you never have to worry about being misinterpreted. It'll always be interpreted correctly.
When I think about what you just said, that people find you scary. I think it's a combination of things. So yes, that feeling that you're looking through them.
I'm of the belief that most people do not know how to see. So when they encounter someone like you or me, someone who actually really looks and sees people based on their actions and their data, it's an uncomfortable sensation for them. Now, with you especially, I think what makes this even more scary is that because of your stature, the following you have, what you have created in life so far.
It's not like you're a nobody, Chris, right? You are some level of influencer slash celebrity now. people are unconsciously seeking validation from you, I think.
So the idea of transparency and being uncomfortable with being like really seen, but also there is this fear that should they step wrong, then you'll see that horrible thing about them and then you'll abandon them, right? You'll reject them as a person. You'll reject the friendship.
And I think that's really hard for most people because they don't put themselves into situations where they would actually allow that to happen and then see and learn that they will not die from this. Whereas I have. When you said you're a stature, that's what you use.
You're like, Chris, well, you're a person of stature. Me? You know, like, "Who the heck am I?" You're like, "I'm loving every moment of this." Let's not put too much importance into what people have done.
If a person that you like for their virtues, their deeds, and their actions mean something to you, That's a person that you may want to get closer to so you can learn and mirror that and you can find your tribe. Not because they made money or worked on something cool or they dress a certain way or wear something. Those are very superficial.
You're looking at all the wrong signals. I just want to put that out there. I know I'm pretty cool, tongue in cheek.
But get to know me because we share the same vibe and energy and values, not because of something else. So I'm no more of a person of stature than anybody else that's on the street. The homeless person, the school teacher, your dentist, your doctor, where people have, I think, hopefully aligned values.
And that's why you want to get to know someone. And for that, you don't have to worry because there's nothing to discover about you that is going to freak people out. And if they're not going to see that light inside of you, your values, then they're not a person who's deserving of your friendship.
That is the number one thing I think that comes up in all of my coaching sessions. Every time the topic of friendship comes up, these people are so unhappy with the friends they have. They feel taken advantage of.
They feel massive resentment. They feel like their level of friendship is not being reciprocated. And again, not like on an exact tit for tat level, but it's like, why am I always the one reaching out?
Why am I always the one saying we should hang out, et cetera? And it always comes back to this. I'm like, if the other person is not giving you what you are looking for, if the other person does not see in you what you see in them, then maybe it's time to move on.
And I think what people don't understand is that your energy for certain types of things is finite. Your energy in relationships will usually be finite. And if you are spending your energy in relationships with people where you don't actually enjoy this, you are holding yourself back from finding other people who would give you what you're looking for in friendship.
And that's what it comes down to. People find that hard to let go of though because... the next thing they'll usually say is, "But then I'll have no one." And I think that's also like a thing you have to confront is you have you.
You have to learn to be with yourself. And then you will not feel that sense of crushing loneliness and the need to have to have these people in your life just because like in order to have someone so you won't be alone. That is the worst place to be in.
I've been there and I would not recommend that for anybody. We'll leave you all with this thought. If you are happy with you, you will also see that the greatest gift that you have is to be someone's friend.
And once you get to this place, you may see that this isn't limited to friendship. It transfers into business as well. Something that I've discovered about myself in the last couple of years, Jewel, is that the first arc of my life was I needed to make money.
And so I work with whoever's willing to pay me and to give me some creative freedom to do what I want to do. Now, kind of in the same way that I found myself, I'm comfortable with myself. I'm in a place financially where I don't need to work for money anymore.
i work for pleasure so as i've been exploring client work i've realized now a similar fundamental guiding principle which is i will only work with you if you are smart enough to recognize the talent that i have and see the value in what i have to do that you will pay me what i ask for and you'll let me do the good work if not i will not work with you i could not say that before because I was in a place that I needed the money more than I needed to be right with myself. So I think we're just talking about tiers now, right? So the friendship thing I recognize and came to that spot a long time ago.
But in terms of having the financial freedom to do whatever it is I want to do, it gives me a new light. And the interesting thing and the reason why I've only discovered this in my 50s is because I'd stopped doing client work seven years ago. and made a conscious decision to go ahead and do some client work now.
And I'm starting to understand the kinds of people I'm willing to take money from is in a weird way. I'm going to say this really bluntly. So there's not kind of misunderstood is in my mind.
If you don't think I'm amazing at what I do, and if you don't trust me enough to allow me to do what I need to do for you to help you, then I do not want your money. I will refund your money. Because to try and help somebody and to convince them is not something I want to spend my energy on, given that I have a finite time left.
And that's what I think about a lot now. Do you have a final thought to my final thought or should we end it there? Oh, no.
I think that is where we leave it because it all comes back to what is that thing you like to teach in sales? You are the gift. You are the prize.
That is an expression. Gift, prize is all the same. That is something that I heard from Blair Enns who then heard it from someone else and I don't remember where he he found it from but you are the prize that you have more opportunities to make money than they have options to do the work.
I'm gonna tell you right now I am one of one. I'm a non fungible human. You cannot get anyone else to do this work if you want me to do it and I bring a lot of experience, taste, charisma and diplomacy, pleasure to work with, creativity, strategy, business.
I roll it up into this package called Doe. Jewel, thanks for being my friend. Thanks for having this conversation about friendship.
I hope you all enjoyed it. Let us know what things we should talk about next, but we'll continue to explore these kind of unfiltered topics that we haven't shared too much about. Thanks Chris.
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“It's the willingness to give of yourself to the other person.”
— Chris Do
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