Podcast 13 min read

Design That Builds Trust (and Sells Without Selling)

with David Fastuca

Chris Do and David Fastuca examine how thoughtful design reduces friction and gives buyers a reason to trust.

Chris Do

Founder, The Futur™ · May 14, 2025

Beautiful Is Not a Business Argument

A beautiful proposal can still lose the deal. A cheap-looking website can be doing its job perfectly. David Fastuca, who co-founded business travel platform Locomote with his cousin Ross and later started sales training business Growth Forum, brings a useful perspective to that contradiction: experience designing products and selling them.

His argument begins with a familiar proposition. When competing products have similar prices and capabilities, visible care can influence which company earns the first conversation. Before a buyer has spoken to anyone, the website and product have already made an impression.

But Chris Do refuses to let the argument stop at attractive surfaces. If beauty reliably won, commercial life would look very different. Successful products are not uniformly elegant, and elegance alone does not explain why a customer chooses one business over another.

The distinction matters because designers can confuse professional taste with commercial effectiveness. A refined typeface, generous spacing, and immaculate layout demonstrate craft. They do not automatically demonstrate an understanding of the buyer.

Better design serves the business position, not the designer's preferred aesthetic.

Fastuca offers a telling recollection about Australian retailer JB Hi-Fi. He remembers challenging a marketing executive about a website he considered visually poor. The explanation, as he recounts it, was that the inexpensive appearance was intentional: the retailer wanted customers to expect a deal.

The anecdote is not proof that rougher websites sell more. It illustrates a narrower, more useful point. A visual treatment that disappoints a designer can still express the intended market position.

Do makes the distinction explicit: “better, in some cases, is not looking more premium.” A business selling affordability does not necessarily benefit from borrowing the visual language of luxury. The right signal depends on the promise being made and the people being addressed.

That reframes the assignment. Instead of asking whether an execution looks sophisticated, the commercial question becomes whether it helps the intended customer recognize the right offer. Appearance is part of the answer, but it cannot define the problem by itself.

Fastuca's own preference for Apple makes the same point from another direction. He describes valuing simplicity, limited choices, and an experience that has worked reliably for him. His preference is not a universal ranking of technology companies; it is an account of fit.

Different customers value different forms of control. Some want fewer decisions. Others want more options and customization. Treating one preference as inherently superior misses the reason both can support a business.

The underlying discipline is audience understanding, the subject also signaled by The Futur's Know your audience. For Fastuca, that understanding has to shape the product, the messaging, and the experience together.

The commercial argument for design therefore needs a higher standard than admiration. It must explain what the customer understands more clearly, completes more easily, or feels more confident choosing. Without that connection, design remains a claim about taste competing against other claims about taste.

With it, design becomes evidence that the business understands whom it exists to serve.

The Product That Wanted People to Leave

Fastuca's clearest example is not a logo or a landing page. It is a booking process.

When he and Ross began building Locomote, Fastuca says neither had been on a business trip themselves. They had worked for themselves and had not developed habits around existing corporate travel platforms. Rather than begin by copying those systems, they chose to imagine the experience from a clean slate.

That decision came with an obvious constraint. Established competitors had more functionality and far larger engineering resources. Locomote could not make a credible early claim to matching every feature, so the founders needed another reason for customers to consider switching.

They concentrated on simplicity.

In Fastuca's account, the conventional booking experience could place roughly 30 questions on a single page. Flights, hotels, cars, reasons for travel, and approval details competed for attention. The traveler had to work through the system's requirements before returning to the actual job.

Locomote reorganized the exchange. The platform first established what kind of trip the person was taking, then asked for the information relevant to that trip. A flight-only booking did not need to become a conversation about hotels and rental cars.

Break a long form into several screens and save progress along the way.
Ask which travel services are needed before requesting details about each one.
Remember previous selections, such as the approving manager, for confirmation next time.

These choices were modest individually. Together, they changed what the product asked of the user. Instead of repeatedly proving information the system already knew, the traveler could confirm it and continue.

The best experience can be the one that takes less time.

Fastuca describes tracking how quickly someone could enter, make a booking, and return to work. “The lower the time the better it was for us,” he says. The objective was not to extend the session but to remove unnecessary effort from it.

That is a more concrete business argument than calling an interface intuitive. The team could identify the behavior it wanted to improve: completing a necessary task with less friction. Design decisions could then be judged against that purpose rather than against visual preference alone.

Do identifies the work as user experience design. Context changes the flow. Previous answers inform subsequent questions. The interface becomes responsive to the person's situation rather than forcing every person through the same sequence.

Fastuca also describes the anxiety involved in travel booking. Choosing the wrong dates can create costs and practical problems. A clear interface therefore does more than save clicks; it helps the traveler make a consequential selection without competing distractions.

The distinction is between displaying everything the system can do and presenting what the person needs now. A comprehensive page can still be an unhelpful page. Completeness at the system level is not the same as clarity at the task level.

Fastuca says prospective customers responded strongly to the simpler approach. His account does not establish that design alone caused their interest, but it identifies the product choice behind his differentiation claim. The founders were not merely making corporate travel look friendlier.

They were asking the traveler to do less work.

Care Has to Survive Beyond the Homepage

The same distinction carries into Growth Forum, where Fastuca describes helping B2B founders establish a sales operating system. Here, the product is not a travel interface. It includes training material, templates, and messaging frameworks that customers must understand and apply.

Fastuca saw an opportunity in how those materials were presented. He describes competing resources delivered as straightforward documents with basic formatting. Rather than treating presentation as an afterthought, his team built Canva templates that combined text with imagery to guide people through creating a sales playbook.

The argument is not that a Google document is inherently inadequate. It is that content quality and usability are different responsibilities. Strong information still needs to be organized so the recipient can see what to do with it.

That difference separates decoration from instruction. An attractive page can invite attention, but a useful template must also direct it. The visual treatment earns its place when it helps someone follow the material rather than simply admire the packaging.

Fastuca extends the ambition to the business's public presentation. He describes wanting the cover of The B2B Sales Playbook to have the impact of a movie poster, using black and contrasting white type to stand apart from other business books. Here, appearance has a different job: attracting attention in a crowded field.

Those two uses should not be collapsed. A cover creates a reason to look. A template creates a way to proceed. Both involve design, but they solve different problems at different moments.

Every client touchpoint previews the working relationship.

That principle becomes especially important after a prospect agrees to move forward. Fastuca treats onboarding as another stage of selling, because the customer is still interpreting what the decision will mean in practice. An agreement does not end the need for reassurance.

Meeting structure shows how the business organizes a working relationship.
Follow-up materials show whether the next steps are clear.
Communication and mock-ups show what attention the client can expect during delivery.

The customer is not only evaluating the final asset. The customer is experiencing the supplier's habits. If the process leaves basic matters unexplained, an impressive portfolio cannot fill every gap.

Fastuca describes frustration with providers who failed to show what a strong process looked like. The absence of clear communication left him making assumptions. That is the hidden cost of treating operations as separate from design: the buyer has to supply the missing structure.

The connection to Crafting a Great Client Experience: From Mediocre to Memorable is direct at the level of the problem. The deliverable and the experience of receiving it are not interchangeable, and both shape the relationship.

Even a terms and conditions page becomes part of Fastuca's argument. He sees attention to overlooked details as evidence that care is not reserved for the public-facing showcase. Small improvements accumulated across touchpoints can make the business feel consistently considered.

There is a necessary limit to that claim. Polished paperwork does not prove excellent service. But unexplained steps and neglected materials can undermine the very confidence a polished website was supposed to establish.

The standard is continuity. The care promised before the sale has to remain visible after it.

A Proposal Is a Preview, Not a Package

For Locomote, earning attention meant overcoming more than a competing interface. Fastuca compares changing business travel platforms to changing banks: a prospect can understand the potential benefit and still resist the inconvenience of moving.

That makes a generic product pitch insufficient. The buyer has to imagine not only a better tool, but a better tool inside a particular organization. Migration requires time, people, and a reason to prioritize the change.

Fastuca responded by researching how a prospect traveled. He spoke with salespeople and others who understood the company's travel needs, then used that information to shape a demonstration. The work began before the proposal's visual treatment.

He would build a small, tailored presentation or microsite carrying the prospect's branding. A video demonstration showed the platform in a context that felt connected to the company's needs. The goal was to make the prospect see a possible working system, not an interchangeable vendor pitch.

The logo mattered less than the understanding behind it. Without research, customization becomes a cosmetic substitution. With research, the same presentation can show that the seller has already begun thinking about the buyer's situation.

Fastuca says that effort helped him get through the door. It gave the prospect a reason to have the conversation in which cost, migration effort, and staff involvement could be addressed. Design did not eliminate those concerns; it helped earn the opportunity to discuss them.

Do then introduces the harder case. For a design firm, a polished proposal is often expected. If every competitor chooses type carefully and presents immaculate layouts, visual competence stops being a meaningful distinction.

Fastuca's response shifts from the document to its delivery.

An emailed proposal leaves the explanation to the reader. Fastuca ranks sending the document and waiting for a response as the weakest approach.
A recorded walkthrough carries the seller's reasoning. A video lets additional stakeholders hear the explanation rather than receive an isolated PDF.
A live presentation makes clarification possible. A conversation allows questions and revisions before the final proposal is sent.

The preference for a live presentation is not an argument for theatrical selling. It is an argument against abandoning the buyer at the moment interpretation matters most. The seller can discover whether a section is unclear instead of mistaking silence for understanding.

Fastuca also wants the conversation recorded and shared afterward. That preserves context for people who were not present, including a chief executive, finance leader, or marketing stakeholder. The document can travel through the organization without losing every part of its explanation.

Reading the room matters, but observations should open a conversation rather than close a diagnosis. A puzzled expression or a change in posture is a reason to ask a question, not proof of a particular objection. The related territory appears in The Futur's The Skill You Need To Win Clients That No One Talks About.

The proposal becomes a working conversation instead of a finished object awaiting judgment. That is a substantial shift for designers accustomed to perfecting a presentation in private and then sending it away.

The Buyer Needs a Reason, Not More Polish

A live proposal review also reveals whose decision the seller is actually supporting. The initial contact is not necessarily the final approver, and a document that works for one stakeholder does not automatically answer another stakeholder's concerns.

Fastuca recommends asking who else needs to see the proposal and what those people care about. His example is a finance leader who wants a line-by-line explanation of the investment. That information changes how the proposal should be organized.

Instead of presenting the entire project and revealing one price at the end, the seller can explain the cost associated with each stage, then provide a final summary. The work and its financial implications become legible together.

This is not an instruction to bury the total or stretch out a price reveal. It is a way to make the relationship between activities, value, and investment easier for the relevant buyer to understand. The sequence follows the decision being made.

Fastuca's preferred process closes the conversation with another concrete action: scheduling the follow-up. The client receives the proposal and recording, while both parties know when the discussion will continue. The seller does not leave every next step to an unspecified future response.

That emphasis complicates the idea of selling without selling. The design can carry evidence of preparation and care, but it does not remove the need for research, explanation, or a direct conversation. It makes those activities more useful.

The same is true of the small firm's supposed disadvantage. Fastuca imagines a buyer comparing similarly priced proposals from providers of different sizes. If the smaller firm looks identical to established competitors, the buyer has little reason to overlook its shorter record.

He argues that a more considered submission can change the interpretation. The buyer can see signs of greater attention rather than simply a smaller organization. This remains a scenario about buyer perception, not a guarantee that extra presentation effort overcomes every credibility gap.

That qualification matters because the temptation is to turn every design decision into a promised conversion lift. Do presses Fastuca for evidence of commercial impact, but the conversation does not supply a controlled comparison that isolates design from research, sales skill, and process.

The defensible lesson is narrower and stronger: all of those elements worked together in the approach Fastuca describes. The proposal's appearance was one part of a broader effort to understand the buyer and reduce uncertainty.

The AI discussion brings that distinction into sharper focus. Fastuca argues that a designer whose output resembles an easily generated result faces pressure on price. His proposed response is deeper knowledge of a customer group and more value from thinking, not simply more production.

He encourages using tools to free time for research and creative decisions while remaining accountable for the output. Do states the boundary clearly: “It should be used to enhance what you do, not replace what you do.”

The commercial value rests in deciding what deserves to be made, how it should work, and why it fits the customer. Faster execution does not answer those questions by itself.

Put the Experience Under Observation

The practical ending to Fastuca's argument is not another round of aesthetic refinement. It is observation.

A team can believe its website communicates clearly and still make booking a call unnecessarily difficult. It can believe a proposal explains the project and still leave the buyer unsure what is included. Internal confidence is not a substitute for watching someone attempt the task.

Test what buyers can do, not just what designers can see.

Fastuca recommends recruiting outside reviewers who resemble the intended customer, using a service such as UserTesting or a similar approach. Give them a specific goal and watch the attempt. For a service business, his example is straightforward: book a meeting.

The point is to observe where the experience breaks down. If someone spends several minutes trying to complete that action, the site's appearance is not the immediate issue. The business needs to understand what is slowing the person down.

This changes the critique from opinion to a visible event. A reviewer cannot find the next step, misunderstands a page, or hesitates before completing the task. Each observation creates a more concrete design problem than a general request to make the website feel better.

Fastuca extends the same method to proposals. An outside reader can reveal whether the sequence makes sense and whether the material communicates what its author assumes it communicates. A lost prospect does not always volunteer that the document was confusing.

Test the website against a specific action, such as scheduling a meeting.
Test the proposal for flow and comprehension with people outside the business.
Review closed-lost deals to investigate recurring reasons opportunities did not progress.
Compare closed-won deals to identify the customers and reasons behind successful decisions.

The last two steps move beyond interface testing into the business's own records. Fastuca recommends examining past opportunities in the CRM, including the recorded reasons for wins and losses. He suggests using an LLM as a conversational aid to explore those patterns.

The emphasis belongs on the questions, not the novelty of the tool. Were opportunities lost on price? Were particular kinds of customers more likely to buy? What reasons did successful clients give for choosing the business?

Those questions return the designer to positioning. If a firm is repeatedly winning with a particular customer type, that pattern deserves attention. If it is repeatedly losing for the same reason, another visual refresh does not automatically address the cause.

The broader move from production toward commercial responsibility is also reflected in the title of Moving from Makers to Entrepreneurs. Fastuca's recommendation makes that move practical: inspect the points where the business asks for attention, understanding, and commitment.

The next improvement does not have to be a full rebrand. It can be removing an irrelevant question, clarifying a project stage, or presenting a proposal while there is still time to correct a misunderstanding.

Every one of those changes asks design to do more than announce quality. It asks design to make care observable in the customer's actual experience.

If the buyer still has to do the missing thinking, the design is not finished.

TRANSCRIPT

You can't be half -baked, you can't be half -assed in your efforts now. I think design is essential to business today, ever more so than before history. I mean, what we do is being commoditized, devalued, often forcing many people to undersell their work, undervalued. I believe the riches are in the niches, so really understanding your customer, the industry that they're in, and being really known for that. I'm Dave Festuka, and you're listening to The Future. I have the opportunity to talk to my next guest about why he believes design is a differentiator, and my core identity is one of a designer. So when somebody says that, my ears are up. You can't really see them through all the headphones and the headgear that I'm wearing, but I'm really intrigued because I think a large portion of our audience, dear listener, you are wondering how we compete in this world, especially in the age of AI and all the noise that's going on. How can design be a differentiator? Is there a business component to it or a quotient? How do we communicate that value to others? And beyond just theory and abstract talk, I'm hoping that we land in a place today with my next guest, David. He's going to share with us some examples of what he's done and what he's seen. David, welcome to the show. Chris, it's a pleasure and honor to be here with you, mate. Wonderful to have you. So let me just start off with this question. I mean, when you say design is a differentiator, can you breathe life into it? Can you fill that out a little bit so everybody's on the same page? Yeah, definitely. So if you think about design as a differentiator, design is a quick way to build trust with your audience and with a prospect. Look, I'll put it to you like this. If you're looking at two of the same products, both priced in the same way, call it a dollar or two here or there, but one website and the product itself looks like a lot more care and thought has gone into the design versus the other. But my question to you is, which one are you going to choose? And you haven't spoken with anyone from other company. It's just based on first impressions. Now, my gut is going to say and my head will say that 90 % plus will go to the one that's better designed. Right? So it's a way for you to form that trust with someone at a real quick level because of the thought that you put into every aspect of that. A great story that comes to mind is the company Xero, the accounting software, quite a boring industry. Sorry for any accountants watching this or listening to this episode, but they entered a real sort of stagnant industry, came with a different approach where they did the same thing that everyone else does with their accounting because it's a very black and white industry. But everything that they produced from their website, from their product, even their terms and conditions pages was beautifully designed. And they really leant into that and really captivated the market based on the look and feel and the effort they put into their design platform. So that's, you know, to kick us off why I believe this. The stagnant industry came with a different approach where they did the same thing that everyone else does with their accounting because it's a very black and white industry, but everything that they produced from their website, from their product, even their terms and conditions pages was beautifully designed and they really leant into that and really captivated the market based on the look and feel and the effort they put into their design platform. So that's to kick us off why I believe design can be a real differentiator for your business. Design can create preference. It can start a conversation. It could build a meaningful, long -lasting, loyal relationship. It could be utility. It can be purely aesthetic. There's lots of ways to unpack this. And when we say better designed, I think that is where my subjective ears start to perk up because in our world, if we look across all industries, all sectors, both virtual and physical, the most beautifully designed products don't always win. In fact, there are more ugly products and services out there than there are beautiful ones. And if the argument is to be said that better always wins or better is preferred, how come it is that we don't live in such a beautifully designed aesthetic world? Yeah, that's really interesting, right? I come across a story that a founder told me around 10 years ago. Now, they were running one of the biggest online and retail retailers here in Australia called JB Hi -Fi. And so they were positioning themselves as the budget type of digital company to go to, whether you wanted a TV, Fringe, and so forth. So when I was chatting with them, I'm like, your website looks like crap. You know, why? You know, this is the head of marketing. With all the money and resources, why don't you create something that's beautiful? And I'll never forget this conversation. He sat me down and said, Dave, we spend over $5 million a year redeveloping, testing our website, and it's made to look cheap by design because that's the impression that we want to give, right? Even though all the products we sell are top -notch, your Samsung, your Sony's, and all that sort of stuff, it's that we want to give the impression that when you come to us, you're getting a better deal. So they're using design as an influence to make it feel like you're coming to a budget site that you're going to get a great deal. And they did provide great deals, but it was to give that impression from the outset. So it was to guide the user. Where if they made it look like a luxury site because they had all the resources in the world, then instantly you would think that this product, this website is more expensive than the other. So I agree 100 % that design is subjective. Every designer has their own sort of way of doing things. And some people either like that or don't like that. It's one of those tough things. It's not a black and white industry or space, that's for sure. So design from the viewpoint of pure designers tends to be a battle that is won or lost purely on aesthetics. Like I don't like the way that looks or I don't like the way they round that corner, whatever it is. It's purely on aesthetics. And I've used this term before, I've gotten some heat on it, but I still stand by it. It's like when creatives talk about design on a purely aesthetic level, they're taking the high level conversation, they're taking it to the streets, to the slums, if you will. And this is not where we need to do our battles. So you've added an additional component to this, which is design, besides being beautiful, needs to solve a specific problem. And design needs to be reflective of the positioning of the product or service and align to the customers in which they want to attract. So better in some cases, it's not looking more premium, but better. When creatives talk about design on a purely aesthetic level, they're taking the high -level conversation, they're taking it to the streets, to the slums, if you will, and this is not where we need to do our battles. So you've added an additional component to this, which is design, besides being beautiful, needs to solve a specific problem, and design needs to be reflective of the positioning of the product or service and aligned to the customers in which they want to attract. So better, in some cases, is not looking more premium, but better is more budget -friendly because that's the position that they're in. And that's in direct contrast to how luxury brands want to present themselves. And the mistake that a lot of our listeners make is they think everybody wants to be positioned as the most luxurious brand. In just a few months, we're going to hit our 400th episode of this podcast. And before we get there, we want to take a moment to really listen to you, our loyal listeners. If you're open to chatting with my producer, Rich Cardona, or someone on his team, we'd love to hear from you. Just fill out the short form in the show notes. It takes less than 20 seconds. Now, let's take it into another place here. And that was a great example. Thanks for providing that. Let's just say between Apple and Microsoft. They both make technology products, consumer electronics, very powerful computers, and can enable lots of people to do their jobs better. In the world, it seems like once Apple got its mojo back, when Steve Jobs returned and rebuilt up Apple, I don't think Apple's ever lost. It's become one of the most valuable companies in the world, a trillion -dollar company. But Microsoft continues to do really well. Now, without assuming what side of this war you're on or side, are you an Apple guy or are you a Microsoft guy? I'm just curious. I am an Apple guy, and I can probably share why. And this is probably my design background influence, is that I love the aesthetic of everything that Apple does and the simplicity. And mainly because Apple, for me, has never failed me versus with Microsoft. For any Microsoft fans, I often would get the blue screen, especially when dealing with Adobe. So, look, they really picked their niche from the early outsets. I remember, you know, originally, Apple was that premium product, which still is for today. They targeted that creative mind, which, you know, now has become more mass market versus your Microsoft, where there's a lot more, I wouldn't say complexity, but you have a lot more options. You know, if you wanted to fully customize your setup and all the bits and pieces that you received with your device, you'd go down the Microsoft route. If you want something where there's only two or three choices and it's just click, click, click, and you're out, then you go down the Apple route. So, but if we bring that back to the core, they had two different, you know, ideal customer profiles and buyer personas. One was the more tech and complex. The other was more sort of simple and creative. And they've both leant into that quite hard and are still, you know, in that same way today. Simplicity, you go, you know, down the route, I would argue down the Apple. For more technical setup and more options, you'll go down the Microsoft route. But that comes down to really understanding who it is you sell to and what it is they care about. And then designing your products, your messaging, everything around that persona. That's the key. You said when things are designed well, design is a differentiator. It's a way to engineer trust and it shows that the end user that you care. So let's bring it back to the Dave show here. technical setup and more options, you'll go down the Microsoft route. But that comes down to really understanding who it is you sell to, and what it is they care about, and then designing your products, your messaging, everything around that persona. That's the key. You said when things are designed well, design is a differentiator. It's a way to engineer trust. And it shows that the end user that you care. So let's bring it back to the Dave show here. When have you used design to show a customer or a whole group of people that you care? And be as specific as you can be, please. Yeah, sure thing. So in my previous company that I co -founded with my cousin, Ross, we had built a business travel tech company. Now, what is that? It's basically a tool that enables you to plan, book, and manage your business travel. It was comparable to the like of Trip Actions, Navan, Concur. When we came out with this product back in 2011, my cousin and I, we had never been on a business trip ourselves. We'd always worked for ourselves, so I never had to use any sort of legacy platforms. So when the problem came to us, and when we were designing what this optimum platform should look like, we hadn't even seen, and maybe very naive at the time, but we hadn't seen what the tools were in the market, we just said, you know what, let's make a decision here. Let's not look and be influenced by anything that's out there, and let's just create something that we believe should be the way that you would manage this process within the business. So we were inspired by a lot of the great tools that are out there, you know, your Facebook, your Xero platform, all the great tools that were coming out, and we're like, let's just create something from a clean slate. Then we went and presented that to potential customers that we were looking at converting from those legacy tools, and all of them, their eyes just lit up. Purely by the way of we took a real simplistic approach to what was always something that's quite complex, and the experience that we provided within that tool. Now, we didn't have all the functionality that these big players had. They've been in the market for decades, had engineering teams into the hundreds, we had two people. So we had to lean into something different. What was going to differentiate ourselves from everyone else out there in the market? So we decided that the design and the simplicity of the user experience, that was going to be the thing that we tip our hat on, and why would someone want to change from where they're, you know, existently using the product, which still worked, but they were getting a lot of gripes and frustrations of how clunky and long it took someone to actually make a trip versus the experience that we provided within Locomote. If I transition that into my new company now, Growth Forum, you know, it's a sales training platform where we help B2B founders create a sales operating system, install that, then recruit. You'd argue that there's not a lot of design required for that. But then when I was discussing this with my now co -founder, Luigi, we're like, again, you know, if we look at all the people that are doing something similar -ish in the market, their design, the way they present themselves, their products, you know, are quite stale, haven't changed for quite a long time. So let's come out with a bit of edge. Let's create things that are really simple to adapt from our templates, our messaging frameworks, the way we present ourselves. Let's just put something out there that we're super proud of. Let's put something out there that can look like a movie poster, you know, from our new book, the B2B Sales Playbook. You know, let's create something that... their design the way they present themselves their products you know are quite stale haven't changed for for quite a long time so let's come out with a bit of edge let's create things that are really simple to adapt from our templates our messaging frameworks the way we present ourselves let's just put something out there that we're super proud of let's put something out there can look like a movie poster you know from our new book the b2b sales playbook you know let's create something that doesn't exist like this hard black with a nice contrasting white font that really stands out you know if you're looking at a sea of business books what's going to catch your eye you know you'll come across that so we put a lot of effort into you know differentiating ourselves by not just by what we do but the design aesthetics that we put out into the marketplace is there anything specific that you can point to either in the travel company that you're talking about or this new thing of their growth forum where you could have gone x but you went y and here's the result that you got to try and paint a much clearer picture besides saying it's a better design product yeah definitely so a lot of people a lot of the sales trainers and coaches in the current market would have their templates and everything like in just a simple google doc with your basic formatting and writing because the premise and the thought pattern behind that is you know the content is is king so if i went to you know i can name three suppliers their process and the look and feel of their templates and everything look exactly the same different content of course so we decided to go you know let's create our material that we share with our members in a different way so we did that within beautifully designed canva templates which guides the user which provides you know clear imagery along with the text that guides them along the process of how to build their sales playbook versus just a generic you know google doc white sheet black text so we decided to spend more time and effort creating something that would guide the user in a much more efficient way and if i bring that back to to locomotive as well as a different story what we would the general sort of way that people would book travel would be everything on one page and what i mean by everything it will ask you questions like what hotel what car what flight you know so they're your generic things then we'll ask you company specific questions why are you traveling who's your your manager line manager that's going to approve this so it's probably like one page with about 30 questions so we decided to let's create this as a better experience let's break it down into a few screens and save the progress along the way on the core items that you need so first we'll ask you what type of trip are you going on so then we'll define okay you just need a flight you don't need car and hotel so let's not ask those questions all right then it'll go down to oh we remember last time you selected john smith as your manager you know is that still the same manager now click so now i don't have to search and type he or she's name it would remember so what we did there was design an experience that wasn't just great the first time that will become better the second third fourth time because it will start to remember what you did previously so that was the clear differentiator that we did there leveraging design and experience by understanding that this is a tool that people need to get in and out as quickly as possible manager now click so now i don't have to search and type he or she's name it would remember so what we did there was design and experience that wasn't just great the first time that will become better the second third fourth time because it will start to remember what you did previously so that was the clear differentiator that we did there leveraging design and experience by understanding that this is a tool that people need to get in and out as quickly as possible it wasn't like your facebook and meta that want to track and keep you in there for a long period of time we did the opposite tracking how quickly can they even go in make a booking and then get back to his normal job so the lower the time the better it was for us that sounds a lot like user experience design that you're talking about here to use contextual clues or information to change the flow of the conversation so if you've answered these questions before or building some kind of logic flow so if you're traveling for a day trip you don't you don't need hotel obviously so don't ask people questions like that that's the kind of design you're talking about right correct correct it's just creating that in a real simple way that it's that it's intuitive so this is where you know the user interface design needs to be clear and not confusing if you look at two consumer sites so if you look at virgin's website virgin travel versus booking .com you'll see some very clear differences where if i'm selecting dates on virgin site the whole page would just become a calendar and it's asking me to select from one to the other versus a drop down that's got a lot of other things popping around it ads and so forth that can be distracting you know there's quite a bit of pressure when you're doing something of that uh of that nature because if you select the wrong dates could cost you more you get there a day early a day later so these are quite you know quote -unquote high pressure type of processes so they've looked to release the anxiety from the end user by having an intuitive user interface obviously led by design to make it a lot more proficient for you know the person making that booking um we we certainly live in uncertain times right now because the rate of change that everyone's having to deal with we seem to be on the brink of war another war or perhaps world war three i don't know i hope that's not the case increasing climate change and pressure from ai so designers are going to need to know well how do i use this design aspect to win new business how do i use design to be more conversant with business owners and what i can do there but before we get there um i you shared with me earlier about how you started a company and exited and then purchased that company back i think it's called travel port and yeah so that's the company we sold it to the company uh that we sold and bought back was uh a locomote okay and now you bought it back are you still running it correct yes so we bought it back so we sold it in started in 2011 if i give the timeline here um sold it in 2016 but to travelport .com um my cousin and i ross had the golden handcuffs i had to stay for two years to do the managed to transition um we left in august 2018 did a bit of investments and more time with the family for a two -year period got the itch uh obviously to get back into entrepreneurship and business uh then covert hit obviously and a lot of uh companies were affected and families were affected by that i'd argue none more so than the travel industry because not only did travel come to a grinding halt say, for two years to do the managed to transition. We left in August 2018, did a bit of investments and more time with the family for a two -year period, got the itch, obviously, to get back into entrepreneurship and business. Then COVID hit, obviously, and a lot of companies were affected and families were affected by that. I'd argue none more so than the travel industry because not only did travel come to a grinding halt, a lot of travel is booked in advance, especially whether it be holidays, business trips. Now, all those travel agencies will need to refund all those credits. They were going not just no revenue but in reverse. Travelport, at the time of COVID, were a listed company on the New York Stock Exchange. They made the decision to start divesting a lot of the investments that they have accrued over the last 10 years. We got wind that they were looking at selling off locomote. Ross and I looked at each other and we said, who knows, we could do this locomote version too. We never thought in our life that we'll go back into business travel, but we had that sort of deep desire that we had unfinished business. Over a bit of a year period, we reacquired the business back in 2021 and then sort of relaunched it coming out of that. It's still operating now. I had left the business in 23 to start Growth Forum. I found my passion was on the sales and marketing and Ross is CEO and still kicking goals with locomotes to date. What is it that you knew how to do that you could buy back the company and have some kind of degree of confidence that you can make it work where they were happy to get rid of it for a dollar? I mean, nobody wants it then. Yeah. It's one of those things where obviously it's costing money. So it was costing Travelport to maintain the product. There were customers on there. Obviously, they weren't transacting, but there were customers on it. They relied on it. We were still connected to the industry. It's a very small industry. It doesn't change fast. Like probably every 10 years, some event will occur. So going back into the industry and talking to people before we acquired back, realized that the same issues were there, the same pain points and we had built a good brand in the industry and the founder, Allure, has a good impact on brands. As soon as we start to talk to existing customers and they got a bit of a sniff that we were coming back, it excited them. So that gave us confidence. And we knew the product was a great product. It was a great asset. So there was two options for us. One, we acquire it back and we look to hold on to it and then just do a quick sale bouncing out of COVID or do we look to try and sell during COVID, which was a bit of a crazy thought, selling something that no one really needed and then come out of COVID with a nice story that we can then garner an investment from. So we tried both angles. Ross was focusing on angle one to see what we could do there from a sale perspective. Then I was focusing on angle two. Can we sell and develop a pipeline of ready -to -go customers once travel started to kick back on? But now you're no longer involved. It's your cousin, did you say? Correct, yes. I'm still one of the major shareholders in Locomotes, but I had moved on. We'd built out a good sales team, great marketing function. It felt time for me to move on. I was never passionate about business travel. We sort of fell into that industry where Ross really dived deep into it and all to the nuances. ready -to -go customers once travel started to kick back on. But now you're no longer involved. It's your cousin, did you say? Correct, yes. I'm still one of the major shareholders in Locomotes, but I had moved on. We'd built out a good sales team, great marketing function. It felt time for me to move on. I was never passionate about business travel. We sort of fell into that industry where Ross really dived deep into it and all to the nuances of that space and quite loved that space. For me, I enjoyed the sales and marketing front of it. We weren't cracking into the U .S. yet. We're probably a year or two away. So my impact was probably limited at that time, and I felt it was time to move on and pursue a new passion. All right, let's get back to the thing where designers who are listening to this who can see there's a business opportunity here. So I'd love for you to share about how you use design to win a new business deal. Yeah, so that will come down to, again, the approach that we would use to reach out to customers, prospects. I would often design a little bit of a demo of the platform with the company's logo on there, understanding the type of travel that they would do based on speaking to some of their salespeople within the company or people who are new would do travel. So the way I would use travel as design as a bit of a differentiator is I could create a proposal and a video demo that they would never get from anyone else because no one was willing to put in the time to do that. So I would almost create like a little bit of a micro site, call it like a micro proposal, that was beautifully designed, had their branding all over the place, and it made it feel like it was their platform. It wasn't someone else's platform. It was built for purpose for them based on some research that I've done on the way they travel. And using that as a differentiator got me through the door because it was really hard to get through the gatekeeper to get a meeting because if you're using something like locomotive time, it's hard to move someone across platform. Think of it as like moving bank. It's a painful process. They all do similar sort of things. Is it worth it moving? So I just needed to get my foot in the door to have that conversation to showcase why it's worth the investment in moving across to Locomote, both in cost but also time and the personnel within the business to allocate time as a new project to migrate across. So that was a key thing that we did during that phase. The next phase was obviously onboarding. So when you're onboarding a new customer, it doesn't matter what you do, whether it's a design agency, marketing, technology, that process of what does that look like from the meetings that you have to the follow -up material that you send to all those steps in the process, that is an indication of what it's like working with you. So what does your communication look like? What are the assets that you send them? What do they look like? What is that process? So that's another sales journey there, the onboarding, where it gives the customer potentially a way to say, this is not the right thing for me, or yes, I've made the right decision here. If this is the way I'm being treated now during the onboarding, I can just imagine how good my experience is going to be once we're live and once the project's going or once the design project is in play, this is the type of communication I can expect to get, the way that I get my mock -ups and things like that. So that's something there that I've seen a lot of designers, even people who we've engaged with to help us with. a way to say this is not the right thing for me or yes i've made the right decision here if this is the way i'm being treated now during the onboarding i can just imagine how good my experience is going to be once we're live and once the project's going or once the design project is in play this is the type of communication i expect to get the way that i get my mock -ups and things like that so that that's something there that i've seen a lot of designers even people who we've engaged with to help us with projects that have failed by not showing me what great looks like and leaving things up to my own assumptions because they're not being clear on their communication and process so it sounds to me like you made extra effort to not just give them information but to package it in a way that looks good to show us that you've made some effort there right correct i think that design is not just in the end product or your website designers should be in everything that you do right and what i mean by everything yes it takes time and effort but again too it just shows me that if i click your terms and conditions and i go wow geez this is really nice to design versus 99 of brands and companies just leave it as an afterthought leave it as just text on the page that just shows that you really care about all the little things that happen within your agency or product so i think you know spending the time to focus on all those little one percenters over you know three four years they all add up and that can you know it's it's a bit of a moat around your business because other companies may not focus on that but if you can just tackle a little bit here and there and focus on those things there that can be a differentiator for you just a few months we're going to hit our 400th episode of this podcast and before we get there we want to take a moment to really listen to you our loyal listeners if you're open to chatting with my producer rich cardona or someone on his team we'd love to hear from you just fill out the short form in the show notes it takes less than 20 seconds so behind you in case you're listening to this podcast and not watching the video version of this there's a number of pictures that are framed behind dave's head uh one word says beautiful i think another one says is it god soaring no what does that say uh these are my uh i'm a football quote -unquote soccer uh fanatic so these are beautifully designed posters around uh the world of uh of soccer so it's one of those things where again too i like you know nice looking things um especially in my office space so yeah i again too i made a lot of this did a lot of research to find posters that i actually liked that deserve to go up on my wall and he's he's arranging it in kind of a salon style where there's five or six things they're not perfectly aligned but there's like there's a flow and symmetry i guess asymmetrical layout but it feels like it's balanced and it's well thought out so when we talk about design we're not talking about just about the way things look we're talking about the experience of it showing people that you care the thoughtfulness and anticipating certain things you also said that it is a trial i guess uh what is this relationship going to look like at all all ends so how you do one thing is how you do everything and you're talking about doing that one percent different compounded across multiple touch points actually can have a really big impact the question i have for you and it's not going to be an easy one to answer but i'm hoping that you can venture a guess at this which is what if you just submitted the proposal the way that most people in your space would submit a proposal what percentage would you assign to this that was a contributing factor to them moving forward with you versus saying no not right for us like at all ends. So how you do one thing is how you do everything. And you were talking about doing that 1 % different compounded across multiple touch points actually can have a really big impact. The question I have for you, and it's not going to be an easy one to answer, but I'm hoping that you can venture a guess at this, which is what if you just submitted the proposal the way that most people in your space would submit a proposal? What percentage would you assign to this that was a contributing factor to them moving forward with you versus saying, no, not right for us? Tough one to answer. I guess that's, you know, thinking about that, you would need to, so if there's three proposals that have come my way and they all look the same, similar sort of price -ish, I am now needing to think of other ways to go, to understand who am I going to trust more? So now if you've taken design off the table as a differentiator, now I need to revert back to other ways. And that might be the engagement that I had with the individual. How big is the company? What are the customers that they've dealt with? So if you're a new startup and you're in the ring with someone that's been in the game for five to 10 years and then an established player and all your proposals look the same, instantly, you know, I would argue that your proposal is now off the table. You know, you're being removed because, okay, you look like all these, but you don't have the logos that, you know, some confidence building and you're new. So I'm going to swipe you out. Now I'm with the next two that have been in the game longer. So, but if your proposal, if your submission is far more, you know, thought out, meaning that there's more thought gone into it, the design of it is great, it's capturing my attention. And then I'm getting that sensation that I think you're going to care more about this project. So just by having something that's, you know, much more thought out and beautifully designed can often position you as the leader, even though that you might not have the experience there. The other two proposals that look, you know, stock standard, but have been out, you know, the companies have been out there for quite a long time, that can often then position themselves out purely from a, okay, well, I'm probably just going to be another number within these organizations. I'm going to put in my trust with the up -and -comer because I believe that they're going to go in above and beyond. So say if it's a $10 ,000 project, for argument's sake, all proposals come in at $10 ,000. If you've got some experience in this, you're probably thinking, okay, within the mid -tier to large tier, I'm probably going to get someone junior working on my project where in the smaller agency space, they're probably going to give me $20 ,000, $30 ,000 worth of value for the 10. So that's the one I want to work with. So that's how I would sort of answer that question there, Chris. How much of a differentiator did design make in your estimation? Because we can never really know, but it's just more on a self -evaluation thing. Within the locomote process, they were quite analytical within our setup of CRM. So I do remember a lot of rough guide that I can give you on the percentage -wise. So we would have around a 30 % to 40 % in the positive chance of winning through our process and our design that we laid out versus those who didn't. Now, that's taken out any sort of tender processes where it becomes an elongated sort of thing. But if we're going toe -to -toe with another provider, proposal out, doing the meeting, on the percentage wise so we would have around a 30 to 40 percent uh in the positive chance of winning through what we through our process and our design that we laid out versus those who didn't now that's taken out any sort of tender processes where it becomes an elongated sort of thing but if we're going you know toe -to -toe with a another provider proposal out during the meeting we would often win 30 to 40 percent more of the time than we would the reason why we have to ask this is because i think a large portion of our my audience is design driven and so they they would never even consider sending in a proposal that didn't look perfect that wasn't laid out with the best type face and the spacing and looking for all that because that's just who they are and they might be in a position where they're not winning a new business because that's what is expected of every design firm to be able to do so is anything you could share with us like if you're a designer who's caring about all these little details and thinking about all the touch points that why aren't they still getting the business what what kind of insight can you offer to them if any yeah perfect so i was talking about this the other day with one of our members and there's three ways that you can send a proposal right so the bottom and the easiest that most people do is they have the discovery meeting with you i'll get the design brief then i put in all this effort to do a you know beautifully look into a proposal and i send it to you chris by email and i say you know let's catch up once you've got a chance to look through this right so that's the bottom of the barrel and we do not recommend uh doing it like that the second is that i create a loom video of sorts walking through the proposal so you can hear my you know you can hear my voice i'm guiding you through the proposal talking about why we did xyz so that way they if the proposal is shared internally with other people that if you're not leaving it up to the individual to just flick over a pdf they're sending the video and whether it be the ceo cfo head of marketing whoever wasn't in the initial conversation can hear and develop trust with you and then walk through that proposal there that's number two the best way to send a proposal so this is you know in all three of these scenarios you've i'm just taking it verbatim that you've got an amazing beautiful proposal leveraging one your awesome templates that people can build out so the third one the the best way the first way that i'll be sending it is going chris i've got the proposal ready i want to jump on a call with you for 15 minutes so i can walk you through it then i'm going to send you i'm going to record that and then i'm going to send it to you as a follow -up so you're not doing extra effort there by having to you know do the meeting then record a separate video you're recording that meeting so the reason why that way is the number one way is that i'm looking at you right now as i walk through it i can see if you're puzzled about a particular slide or page that i'm going through and then i can adjust for that and i can ask you a question we can dive deeper into that live while we're chatting then most importantly when we get to the pricing side i can see your level of comfort right through the visual cues whether you're leaning back on your chair whether you're scratching your head i can interrogate you a little bit more to understand where are we in the scope of things that way there i can make adjustments before sending over the final proposal i've had a conversation with you then i can book a meeting following that call so i can say okay i'm going to send this to you now you know for the next hour um when should we book in a follow -up call then you've got that action plan in place you've shared the proposal you've gone deep scratching your head i can interrogate you a little bit more to understand where are we in the scope of things that way there i can make adjustments before sending over the final proposal i've had a conversation with you then i can book a meeting following that call so i can say okay i'm going to send this to you now you know for the next hour um when should we book in a follow -up call then you've got that action plan in place you've shared the proposal you've gone deep and uncovered any sort of concerns or questions they have you're sending them the follow -up video of the recorded session so if they pass that proposal on to anyone else within the business they've got context and you've booked in the next meeting that is the number way number one way to close more deals with your design agency okay so your preference is to present it live to just as you go to read the person's emotions and in case there is something that they ask for more of or less of you can quickly tune that up and then send that over following the conversation correct you get a good understanding as to as you're walking through the proposal as well um you can ask a few more buying questions as to you know who else within the within the business needs to get involved in this or or see this proposal what do they care about more because then you might make some little tweaks these little finesse tweaks there can often you know it might come down to you know typically you might have the final page or like a proposal page that has all the costings there but then you might when you're when i'm talking to you chris you might say yeah it's going to go to the cfo and they're very analytical they want to see a breakdown line by line on where every cent is going you can say cool so then on each page of a project you might have this is what this element of the project costs and then on the final page you've got the summary but as they're going through and as you're talking through you know during this stage of the project we're going to do xyz and this is the value and the investment that's required for it you're developing trust as you build up to the final price and the cfo or whoever within the business is going okay i can see where the investment is coming and where it's going to in this project i believe that they can deliver yes let's go versus uh here's everything we're going to do bang final price wonderful okay i want to use the last question i have for you today to be probably maybe one of the most pivotal and tee you up for this is uh this idea of like why you think design is essential to business today yeah ever like ever more so than than before history i mean designers i think are feeling this pressure where what we do is being commoditized devalued often forcing many people to undersell their work undervalued in the marketplace so why do you think design is such an important part of business and how can we leverage that it's such a creative field right if we think about all the fields that are out there design is one of those things where again very subjective of course but it's very creative um so why is it the most pivotal than it's ever been now is that you can't be half bait you can't be half -assed in your efforts now if you can develop something similar to an ai output then you you can become commoditized right so how do you differentiate yourself from that it's about depending on who you're targeting and who you're going after like i believe you know the the riches are in the niches so really understanding you know your your customer the industry that they're in and being really known You can't be half -baked. You can't be half -assed in your efforts now. If you can develop something similar to an AI output, then you can become commoditized, right? So how do you differentiate yourself from that? It's about depending on who you're targeting and who you're going after. Look, I believe the riches are in the niches. So really understanding your customer, the industry that they're in, and being really known for that. I think moving forward in the next five to 10 years, you're going to see those wide -ranging design agencies that can do a logo to a business card to a website start to become more focused on one or two particular niches. It might be that we're the best in user experience. We're the best at branding, whatever it might be, but then really owning that space and showcasing that you're leveraging AI. I think it would be cognizant of mentioning that. You should be leveraging AI to enhance what you do, to promote what you do, to make you more effective, so you can stay in your zone of excellence, no matter what that might be within your design agency. And it's embracing that and then talking about with your customers and addressing it head on, right? Because you know that these questions are probably in the buyer's head as to, can I just get like a mid -journey output and get something similar for $10 versus paying you $1 ,000? So leveraging in that conversation into your buying process and saying that, you know, these are the tools that are out there. Here's what we leverage, but here's where our team come into it. It's the creative thinking. It's the, you know, the research that we do in this space that's going to position you, you know, as number one in your market. So I think more thinking, more creativity, which is, you know, most designers' zone of excellence needs to come into play. And it's like many industries, you know, you can either look at AI and the change in dynamic as a fearful way, or you can have that abundance mindset and go, I'm going to embrace this. is going to help me. And I'm going to really lean into this and use it as a differentiator for my business. So you're in either one of those two camps. And I definitely implore you all listening to be in that abundance mindset. There is plenty of work out there for all of us. You just need to embrace it, find, you know, your zone of excellence and who you want to serve and go really deep into that. There are a lot of people in the creative space that are anti -AI. We see posts that say, this was made by human, I'm anti -AI in the hashtag. So for people who are concerned about the ethical training source material that a lot of AI is trained on and how it may or may not infringe on copyright, do you have any words of wisdom for them? Again, it's being aware of the tools that you're using and who you're working for. Some brands may not care. Other brands would have a high standard of, you know, we can't be seen to leverage any or have any copyright infringement. I think, was it Nike not too long ago, about a month or so ago, did a full TVC ad using AI. So obviously, you know, brands are there testing and interrogating these tools themselves. So one, again, I'll bring it back to the customer. Do they care about if there's any sort of slight plagiarism or, you know, leveraging, you know, the unethical side of AI versus those who really do care? And then understanding what tools can you use? What parameters can you put in place? What are your guardrails for ensuring that doesn't leak out? Because that's going to hurt you and your... call the Achillies watcher? You know, brands are there testing and interrogating these tools themselves. So one, again, I'll bring it back to the customer. Do they care about if there's any sort of slight plagiarism or, you know, leveraging, you know, the unethical side of AI versus those who really do care? And then understanding what tools can you use? What parameters can you put in place? What are your guardrails for ensuring that that doesn't leak out? Because that's going to hurt you and your design agency. If, you know, it always takes this one bad person to say, put a post on LinkedIn saying, I just went to Agency X and all they did was spit out some AI stuff that's similar to my competitor and they wanted $10 ,000 for it. That can really hurt your image. So it's being cognizant of the outputs of these tools and not just leaving it all up to them. Yeah. So there's two sides to this. One is I'm anti -AI. Whenever you said I put my head in the sand and that's okay. That's working for you. Do that. And then there's the other side, the extreme opposite, which is I don't want to do any thinking. I just want the AI to do all the work and I'll go collect the checks. And that's not what we're advocating for either. It should be used to enhance what you do, not replace what you do. Exactly. So this is where, you know, you look at a lot of the tools that we use today, whether it be Figma, Adobe, they're integrating AI into their tools to help make your work a lot simpler. Well, I'll never forget, years ago, trying to, you know, remove a background from someone's image with their hair and it's taken like four hour process. And now it's two clicks and four seconds and the whole background's gone to perfection, right? So why wouldn't you leverage all these tools that are out there? Again, that process there can reduce your time. So then you can put more effort into the creative thinking of the project and making sure that's going to resonate for your buyer's audience rather than on the doing side of things. So, yeah, you'd be silly not to engage with AI in the right ways to enhance your offering, to give you more time and more creative space to think about how can you execute this project in a way that's going to blow the socks off your customer, that's going to deliver them crazy results for their brand. And that's where more of your time should go into. As we start to land this plane and this conversation I'm having with you today, let's give the people, Dave's, three things that you can do to use design as a differentiator and be as prescriptive as you want so that it's super tactical for people. Definitely. So what I would do from a design perspective is your primary asset being your website. I would leverage some like a tool like usertesting .com, something similar to those where you can get some external people. Real humans who are similar to the buyers that you target to go through and test your website out. And what you get from here is you'll get a series of videos of them clicking through your website. And if they're getting stuck, so you give them a goal. I want you to book a meeting with me. That is the goal of this task. Now, if you find it's taken someone five minutes to book a call on your website, you've got some design issues there that you need to fix. Your website might be beautiful, but if it's not converting and not delivering you leads, then you need to tweak some things there. So that would be one of the key things too. Second, I'll do the same on your proposal. Do people understand the flow of your proposal? Does it make sense to them? You might go through the same process of getting some externals to review your documents, mainly your proposal. So you can see firsthand because when you're dealing with a customer, they're not going to tell you a lot of the times, I didn't understand the proposal. It's left to the unsaid. And the unsaid was being that you lost the deal. second i'll do the same on your proposal do people understand the flow of your proposal is it make it sense to them you might go through the same process of getting some externals to review your your documents your mainly your proposal so you can see firsthand because when you're dealing with a customer they're not going to tell you a lot of the times i didn't understand the proposal it's left to the unsaid and the unsaid was being that you lost the deal so that is a key thing to understand one thing and then the final probably less on the designing but more for your design agency to help you grow have a look at all the closed lost deals that you've had over the last say two years whether using a crm like hubspot or goho level i hope you're capturing the reasons why you lost these deals do a big export run it through your favorite chats llm and then have a conversation with that back and forth to understand why have i what is the main cause of me losing these deals was a price was it this was it that start to understand this is a bit of a self -coaching exercise you might even start to do this every quarter to understand you know why you're losing opportunities but on the flip side as well then start to bring in all your closed one deals to understand why you're winning who it is the type of customer that you're winning most of the time why are they choosing you then you can lean harder into that this is where leveraging ai for your agency not for the output of your customer but more for the output of yourself and your growth can really power you to win more deals focus more effort on what you're doing right and to avoid making the same mistakes over and over again i thought that was really practical uh and you turned me on to something i had not used before usertesting .com which is real people kind of ideally suited for your demographic we're going to then look at whatever it is that you're doing you can watch them as they're going through a proposal or website i think that's great to get valuable information i like that you're very kind of really pragmatic about how to look at design and taking it away from this objective space and just looking more objectively looking at your lost deals and running it through an ai engine to kind of analyze poke holes and make strategic recommendations we live in an amazing time because two years ago that's not a conversation you can have that's a high level consultant who's going to go through that at a high cost to you and now we can use the llms to analyze to make suggestions to ask us questions to kick the tire if you will and get some pretty high level strategic coaching at a fraction of the cost that was super helpful are there any additional resources you want to share with our audience yeah look i'd love to obviously talk about our book that we go into deep in all of this it's called the b2b sales playbook it's available from the 25th of march on amazon check it out there's get in every version possible there if there's any questions that any of you have from a design perspective in my first 15 years of business i had a design agency so i understand the pains in starting and growing that so i'd be happy to have a conversation and help the design community grow it's an area that i'm super passionate about well if they have a questions for you where should they reach out hit me up on linkedin i'm super active there so just look me up david festuca mentioned this podcast so i know where you're coming from and then we can start a one -to -one chat no david i'm gonna ask you this question as you can see behind me there's lots of books i don't need another book to read so give us your best elevator pitch as to why i should even order one more book well we believe that this and help the design community grow. It's an area that I'm super passionate about. Well, if they have questions for you, where should they reach out? Hit me up on LinkedIn. I'm super active there. So just look me up, David Fustuka. Mentioned this podcast so I know where you're coming from and then we can start a one -to -one chat. Now, Dave, I'm going to ask you this question. As you can see behind me, there's lots of books. I don't need another book to read. So give us your best elevator pitch as to why I should even order one more book. Well, we believe that this book that we've created is the best sales playbook you haven't read yet. The book that we've created is very tactical, a bit like this conversation we've had today, very tactical. You can read it from front to back or if you have an issue of anything within your business from a growth perspective, you can go directly to that particular chapter, read the story, read the tactics and get the templates. In every chapter, we've got resources that you can get free access to and then you can install and apply that to your business within a few hours. It's a very tactical book that we've created here. We want this to be on the desk of every founder and revenue creator out there in the market where it's got sticky notes coming out of it, where they've got an issue, whether it be generating leads or closing more deals, they can go get the advice within 10, 15 minutes and then start to apply to their business today. We try to move away from the fluffy side of things and go really into the practical because when it comes to business, sales is the engine that fuels our growth and that gives you the freedom to work on the things you want to work on. So we want to unlock that freedom for everyone that gets access to this book. I'm going to ask you a very specific question. The book looks pretty thick. Can you hold it up again? Show people. Okay. It's a beefy looking book, guys. I don't know if it's 85 point. Type in it or not, but let's do this. No, it's all right. We're going to look there. Yeah, okay. There's a lot of stuff in that, okay? It's dense, okay? If we had to pick a chapter for our audience, what is the hottest idea in that book? If you don't mind, if you can just skim to that chapter through the table of contents and tell us what chapter it is and what it's about and give us the high level. No problem. So if you can see here, I'm going to look to the screen. The chapter that I will go into is number six, earning the rights. And what I mean by earning the rights is that you need to earn the rights to get time with your prospect on their calendar. They're getting hit. They're getting pitched a thousand and one different ways. So why have you earned the right to talk to me in order to pitch your desired agency? Until you've earned the rights, you shouldn't be sending any cold messages or any LinkedIn connections. You need to provide some insight, some value to me so that I'm willing to invest 20, 30, 60 minutes of my time to talk to you about why you want to pitch to me. That is the number one thing that we see people in business fail on. They just reach out without knowing me deeply enough to earn the right to speak to me. Nail that and your business will grow. And not that I've not said this before, but those of you who are reaching out to me in the DMs trying to pitch me your service or your product without having a relationship with me, you know what I do? I block and report you. I mute you on messages because I'm sure you have something great, but I don't like to work with people who are not thoughtful and consider my time and really are too quick to transact with me versus building a real relationship. So on that note, it's been a pleasure talking to you, Dave. I found some super helpful tips and I just love your matter of fact way of speaking about these concepts. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you, Chris. It was a pleasure. without having a relationship with me, you know what I do? I block and report you. I mute you on messages because I'm sure you have something great, but I don't like to work with people who are not thoughtful and consider my time and really are too quick to transact with me versus building a real relationship. So on that note, it's been a pleasure talking to you, Dave. I found some super helpful tips. I just love your matter of fact way of speaking about these concepts. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you, Chris. It was a pleasure.

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