The title is easier than the responsibility
A client can keep paying long after a coach starts questioning the work. Jule Kim, who describes herself as an ICF-certified coach approaching four years in practice, faced that dilemma with a client she had supported for more than two years. Her concern was not how to retain the account, but whether continuing to accept the money was right.
That is a more demanding test of a coach than the ability to attract an audience. It asks what happens after the sale, when encouragement no longer produces movement and the relationship itself becomes difficult to examine.
Chris Do sees the problem beginning with a title that, in his account, people can adopt without demonstrating competence. Social reach makes the confusion worse: someone with an audience can launch a course, announce a coaching practice, and appear credible before prospective clients have a useful way to assess the work.
The distinction is not between visible people and serious people. It is between the ability to sell development and the ability to support it responsibly.
Kim challenges a proposition she has encountered in the coaching industry: that the skill of coaching is sufficient regardless of what a client does professionally. She accepts part of that argument. A coach does not necessarily need to share the client's occupation, but cannot dispense with an understanding of people.
“You have to understand how people work and how they think,” she says.
Her skepticism about very young life coaches follows from that distinction. She questions how much experience a person at 21 has accumulated with different motivations, behaviors, and circumstances. That is her assessment of a potential limitation, not a universal age threshold for competence.
She also gives younger practitioners credit. Their sense of possibility can be broader, with less cynicism narrowing the options they consider. Experience offers perspective, but it does not automatically confer openness.
Competence requires more than confidence.
For Kim, training matters because it supplies a line of inquiry. The work is not simply spotting what appears wrong and offering a confident correction. It involves helping someone identify the issue beneath the explanation they first bring into the room.
Neither speaker presents credentials as a guarantee of a productive relationship. They note that training, rapport, and personal fit are different variables. A professional can possess qualifications and still fail to connect with a particular client.
Their concerns operate at several levels:
- A visible audience can make an untested practitioner look established.
- Technical coaching skills still require an understanding of human behavior.
- Training does not eliminate differences in chemistry or effectiveness.
- A disappointing experience can make a client distrust the entire category.
These are observations from their conversation, not an industry-wide assessment. But they establish the question that Kim's client story makes concrete: what responsibility remains when a coach can no longer assume that a relationship is serving its stated purpose?
Do extends that concern beyond coaching to professional services without a governing body. The absence of an external penalty does not settle the ethical issue. It leaves more of the judgment with the person collecting the fee.
The client who agreed to everything
Kim's client was not receiving nothing. She valued the emotional support and the guidance on foundational matters, including boundaries and priorities. The relationship had lasted more than two years because something in it was useful.
But usefulness was not the same as follow-through. Whenever the work required enforcing a boundary or doing something difficult, Kim observed a familiar retreat. The client would agree, then disappear from communication.
One example was almost disarmingly small. Kim suggested starting a Pinterest account. Two months passed without a response about it.
The account itself was not the central issue. The sequence was: enthusiastic agreement, no visible follow-through, no explanation. Repeated across assignments, that sequence made it difficult to know what the client actually intended to do.
Kim also doubted whether all those commitments were realistic. She knew enough about the client's life to question whether everything being accepted could fit. Agreement had become less informative than an honest refusal would have been.
Accountability is not obedience.
Kim did not require the client to execute every suggestion. She wanted to know whether an action was feasible, unwanted, or simply not going to happen. A direct rejection would give them something to work with; silence left both the task and the relationship unresolved.
That distinction changes the meaning of the confrontation. This was not a coach demanding compliance with a plan. It was a coach asking whether the partnership could function without reliable communication about the plan.
The pattern had already been discussed. When the client delayed her regular session, Kim decided not to wait for the next appointment. She raised both the recurring silence and her uncertainty about remaining the right coach.
She also questioned continuing to take the client's money.
Initially, the client acknowledged the problem. Three days later, a more difficult response emerged. What Kim intended as a conversation about the effectiveness of their work had landed as a judgment about the client's worth and a warning of abandonment.
Kim does not describe that reaction as evidence that the client was incapable of accountability. Instead, she emphasizes what happened next. The client separated the message she had heard from the words Kim had actually used, then checked her interpretation.
That was a meaningful act of participation in the relationship. Rather than treating an emotional response as conclusive evidence of Kim's intention, the client made room for clarification.
The story belongs beside the broader question of relational skill raised by The Skill You Need To Win Clients That No One Talks About. Here, understanding the other person was not a technique for securing agreement. It was necessary to discover why agreement had stopped meaning anything.
Kim reports that they ended on the same page and were moving forward. She does not offer evidence of a completed transformation, and the conversation does not establish that the underlying pattern disappeared.
The outcome is narrower and more credible: a difficult exchange became possible. The client spoke about what hurt. The coach clarified what the work required. Neither had to pretend that continued payment, by itself, resolved the problem.
When helping protects the helper
The financial dimension became more personal when the client explained where the money came from. She paid Kim from her own earnings, not her husband's. Those earnings represented work into which she poured considerable care.
Kim understood that payment as part of an exchange of love and labor. Her response was not to dismiss its emotional significance, but to turn attention toward whether the client was honoring the same investment in herself.
This complicates the easy caricature of unethical coaching as nothing more than greed. Keeping an ineffective relationship alive can involve money, but Kim and Do identify another motive: the coach's need to remain the person who helps.
Kim describes coaching communities where practitioners struggle even with basic conversations about lateness or payment. She doubts that someone unable to address those matters will readily confront a more emotionally tangled relationship. This is her impression from those communities, not a measured claim about the profession.
Do recognizes the attraction of being needed. A coach can imagine that persistence proves care, that one more session will make the difference, or that stepping back would mean abandoning someone.
Kim adds a more direct explanation: “a huge fear of conflict.”
The professional identity itself can make that fear harder to admit. Kim describes an expectation that coaches should somehow have risen above ordinary human difficulties. By her account, that ideal can coexist with people-pleasing, avoidance, and a reluctance to disappoint.
She includes herself in the criticism. Those tendencies were especially familiar during her first years of coaching. The issue is not a clean division between enlightened practitioners and careless ones, but whether practitioners can recognize their own participation in a stalled dynamic.
The risks she identifies are distinct:
- Fear of conflict. The coach avoids a conversation because the client's reaction feels difficult to face.
- The need to be needed. Continued dependence gives the helper an emotionally rewarding role.
- The idealized coach identity. The practitioner expects to be above ordinary frustration and uncertainty.
In Kim's account of her professional guidance, coaching should help a person develop tools to support themselves. A coach should not become a permanent caretaker who repeatedly reconstructs the client's life on their behalf.
She says relationships showing dependency or possible codependency warrant serious attention, including considering an end to the coaching engagement or recommending counseling or therapy. Those are her descriptions of the guidance she works under, not a diagnosis of the client in her story.
She also describes a possible arrangement in which a client works with both a coach and a therapist. With the client's permission, the professionals can communicate. The important boundary in her account is that coaching does not have to absorb every need a client brings.
This is a useful distinction alongside The Importance Of Mentors: support can matter deeply without making the supporter responsible for every part of another person's development.
For Kim, the objection is to becoming “rent a friend.” Emotional support can belong inside coaching, but comfort alone cannot quietly replace the purpose for which the client sought help.
The cost of keeping the peace
Do does not position himself outside the pattern. Despite a public manner that Kim describes as ruthless, he recognizes longstanding caretaking tendencies in his professional and personal relationships.
He recounts seeking therapy after noticing that he was more concerned about the mental welfare of employees who disagreed with him than about his own. Instead of addressing the disagreement, he would give way.
From the outside, that response could resemble generosity or flexibility. Internally, he says, resentment accumulated. He now describes his behavior as passive-aggressive: the conflict was not resolved, merely displaced into feelings the other person could not see.
That is the hidden cost of keeping the peace. A relationship can appear calm while one participant is privately compiling reasons to leave it.
Do describes a familiar progression. A small transgression seems too minor to raise. Another follows, then another. Eventually, what looked like patience becomes exhaustion, and withdrawal feels easier than explaining everything that has gone unsaid.
His response has often been to recede: fewer returned calls, fewer replies, less presence. Kim distinguishes that pattern from her current preference for having a direct conversation, while acknowledging that she once cut people off without explanation.
Neither account supplies a universal rule for every friendship. What matters for their discussion of coaching is the contradiction: people who teach communication can still find their own uncomfortable conversations difficult.
Insight does not erase a habit.
Do resists the notion that discovering a better idea immediately removes a lifetime of conditioning. He treats his caretaker tendencies as something to notice and manage, not something permanently cured by understanding them.
That position makes change less theatrical and more specific. The old response still appears. The difference is the opportunity to recognize it before it determines the next action.
In his account, that involves several small decisions:
- Notice discomfort instead of automatically dismissing it.
- Decide whether a boundary needs to be stated.
- Speak before a series of minor incidents becomes accumulated resentment.
- Accept that a familiar habit can return after genuine progress.
Do also complicates a common assumption about honesty. He finds it easier to tell people he knows and trusts what he really thinks than to do so with strangers. Closeness gives him enough confidence in the relationship to challenge something directly.
That matters because bluntness and honesty are not interchangeable. The objective is not to deliver an unfiltered reaction to every irritation. It is to prevent important information from being withheld until the only remaining expression of it is departure.
Kim's client encounter illustrates the same pressure from the other side. Silence left Kim guessing about the work. In Do's account, silence left other people unaware of his growing resentment.
The settings differ, but both expose the weakness of using noncommunication as a substitute for a boundary. One person experiences avoidance as temporary relief. The other is left without a clear account of what needs to change.
A conversation can be uncomfortable without being a failure. Sometimes the failure is the long period during which nobody says enough to make a real decision possible.
Words carry more than intent
The question of boundaries leads Do toward a phrase that many people consider harmless: expressing pride in someone. His concern is not that every use of it is malicious. It is that a speaker can attach approval to achievement without examining what the listener hears.
His wife had challenged him about being sparing with praise for their high-achieving son. Rather than treating that as a simple reminder to offer more compliments, Do began examining why the language made him uncomfortable.
For him, parental love should not read as a performance contract. He describes repeatedly telling his children that nothing they did could make him stop loving them, and that they did not have to become different people to receive that love.
The distinction he wants to preserve is between celebrating an outcome and making belonging appear contingent on it. Grades, education, professional choices, and behavior can become occasions for approval. Do worries about what happens when children interpret that approval as the condition of being loved.
This is his philosophy of parenting and language, not proof that a familiar phrase produces a predictable psychological result. The conversation is strongest when read as an examination of possible meanings rather than a universal ban on particular words.
That concern has a natural companion in Raising Independent Creative Children. Independence here includes the ability to exist without constantly searching for the next authority figure's approval.
Kim responds personally. She says her parents told her they loved her almost every day, and she does not doubt that love. What remains less certain to her is whether it would survive an extreme failure or disgrace.
That distinction helps explain the intensity of her client's response. A discussion about the value of continuing coaching was heard as a statement about whether the client deserved to remain in the relationship.
The intended subject was effectiveness. The perceived subject was worth.
Kim and Do also scrutinize how advice is delivered publicly. Kim had posted about avoiding expressions of pride and received sharply divided reactions. Some people felt their discomfort had finally been articulated; others treated the suggestion as unreasonable sensitivity.
Do identifies a difference between explaining a personal choice and issuing a directive. Describing why a phrase does not fit a speaker's values leaves room for the listener's experience. Telling others not to use it can sound like an indictment of their relationships.
Their eventual positions are less rigid than the dispute initially suggests. Kim says she generally considers the affection behind someone's words. Do likewise acknowledges that he can accept the gesture without turning an ordinary interaction into a debate about language.
Precision matters, but so does generosity toward imperfect expression.
Kim offers another example from coaching: a client described needing an emotional reaction without identifying the emotion. For her, that vagueness obstructed understanding. Naming the feeling more precisely would give them a clearer subject to examine.
The practical standard is not flawless phrasing. It is the willingness to distinguish intention from impact, ask what a person actually means, and revise an interpretation before turning it into a verdict.
A standard that survives discomfort
The conversation's final turn, toward respect, prevents the argument from settling into an easy claim of moral superiority. Kim admits that seeing people behave against her values can reduce her respect for them. She is still working through the distinction between judging an action and judging a person.
Do does not produce a finished definition either. He distinguishes respecting someone's right to live differently from admiring the way they live. Kim presses him on whether a real friendship can survive a lack of mutual respect.
That uncertainty is important. The speakers who have spent the conversation examining other people's assumptions are now forced to examine the limits of their own.
Do offers a business example. He prefers creating content that attracts people toward him. Someone else can prefer direct outreach, calls, and messages, and build a successful business that way. His dislike of the second approach does not establish that it is wrong.
Difference is not sufficient evidence of deficiency.
The same caution applies when assessing a person from a narrow encounter. Do describes people who formed a harsh impression of him from limited exposure, then revised it after more videos or an actual conversation. He appreciates the willingness to admit that revision.
“One or two things should not be the entire thing,” he says.
Kim's client showed a version of that discipline. An emotionally painful interpretation did not become the final account of Kim's character. She paused long enough to consider whether the person she knew had actually meant what she initially heard.
The challenge extends to beliefs that feel too familiar to question. Do proposes writing down ten things held to be true and tracing where those convictions originated. Childhood, family, entertainment, and other early influences become subjects for examination rather than automatic authorities.
This belongs alongside the question named by Living in the Dogma of your Parents. An inherited idea can feel self-evident simply because it arrived before its recipient had the tools to challenge it.
A familiar belief still needs examination.
Do's exercise asks for a specific sequence of reflection, not a new doctrine:
- Write down ten beliefs held to be true.
- Trace how each belief was acquired.
- Assess the reliability of the original source.
- Consider what circumstances the belief was responding to.
- Ask whether the same claim would be convincing if encountered as an adult.
Applied to coaching, that examination reaches both sides of the relationship. The client's agreement can be tested against actual intention. The coach's persistence can be tested against the need to feel useful. An apparent act of care can be examined for the conflict it avoids.
None of this produces a simple credential checklist or a promise that difficult clients become easy. Kim's account offers something more restrained: evidence of a practitioner questioning her own suitability, addressing a repeated pattern, and staying present when the response became emotional.
The relevant test is not whether a coach always knows what to say. It is whether uncertainty prompts inquiry rather than performance, whether disagreement remains possible, and whether the client's progress still matters when it threatens the comfort of the arrangement.
A title can be announced. Responsibility has to be practiced, especially when continuing to collect the fee would be easier.
The invoice can keep clearing while the work stands still.
TRANSCRIPT
I think there is the perception that anyone can call themselves a coach. And I think that's part of the problem. There are very young, inexperienced people who have undergone little to no training who call themselves coaches.
And they go and launch courses through the power of the social reach that they have. In the coaching industry, they'll try to tell you that you don't have to know anything about the person's industry or about what they do for a living. They'll try to tell you that all you have to have is the skill of coaching.
And that's only partially true. The idea of like ethical responsibility, I think transcends just the coaching business. Anyone who works in a professional service space who isn't accredited or governed by any body, we can drift into these areas where you don't have to like be recertified every single year to make sure you're doing best practices and your license can't be taken away from you because you don't even have one.
I'm coming up on four years of being a coach. And I will say that there is one area you really need to have expertise in that can be hard to have if you're only 21. And that's just...
Hey, everybody, what's up? It's Sunday, so this is unusual for me to be recording any kind of content. But my friend Jewel Kim, who has been a guest on the show many times, had this idea that we would create some content based on many conversations that we have but aren't ever recorded.
So she thought, let's do this unfiltered thing where just her and I talk about whatever's on the top of our mind. And true to form, she just woke up from a nap and And I just got back, I'm unshaven, unshowered, and this is how we're going to do it. So luckily this is not smell-o-vision, this is mostly just video and audio only.
So Jewel, what did you have in mind? Is anything that's kind of top of mind for you? Well, right now, some of the stuff kind of swirling around in my head are stuff around accountability, responsibility, and respect.
And I've had, okay, so that's one, sorry, that's one piece. And then there's the other conversation we've been having over this past week about like our ethical and maybe financial responsibility to clients. So I keep thinking about it and I've kept like teasing it apart.
You know, I've had a conversation with one of my clients and And I find myself, I'm likely to have to have this conversation again with yet another client. So the idea of like the ethical responsibility, which I think a lot of people don't have those ideas associated with life coaches, because you know how a lot of the perception out there is, you know, scam or they're just out to take your money. And yeah, so it's it's been really interesting.
Yeah. Plus, I had coaching this past week. about some of the stuff that i've been going through you know i i think there is a perception within the general public that anyone can call themselves a coach and i think there's dedicated body to certify coaches but i can call myself a coach and someone else can call themselves a coach and i think that's part of the problem because there are very young inexperienced people who have undergone little to no training who call themselves coaches and they go and launch courses through maybe the power of the social reach that they have and they call themselves something and people sign up and if you had one or two bad experiences with some so-called coach I think you can come to a reasonable conclusion like it's really hard to tell the real from the fake the scammers from the people who really want to contribute to your personal professional development.
And the idea of like ethical responsibility, I think transcends just the coaching business. Anyone who works in a professional service space who isn't accredited or governed by any body, we can, we can drift into these areas where you didn't have to go to ethics training. You don't have to like be recertified every single year to make sure you're doing best practices and your license can't be taken away from you because you don't even have one.
And I think this is an idea that a lot of people can, I think, sink their teeth into. So why don't we pick it up from there? That certainly sounds good.
I do think with life coaching, it gets tricky because like you said, anybody can call themselves a coach. And even among the different branches of coaching, there's so many different types. So I don't think people necessarily may expect a business coach to be like a certified business coach.
But it does get questionable a lot of the times with just the two biggest problems being someone who's ultra young. So like someone who's 21, who's like, okay, I'm going to be a life coach. And it's not that I necessarily think that that can't be done.
It's just that in the coaching industry, they'll try to tell you that you don't have to know anything about the person's industry or about what they do for a living, your client. They'll try to tell you that all you have to have is the skill of coaching. And that's only partially true.
Let's see. I'm coming up on four years of being a coach. And I will say that there is one area you really need to have expertise in that can be hard to have if you're only 21.
And that's just experience with people. You have to understand how people work and how they think. And when you're 21, I feel like you barely know yourself, if at all, let alone how other people are, how the world works, why people think the things they do, why do they do the things they do.
And it gets really questionable, you know? To me, it doesn't pass the sniff test. Now, I think there are some plus sides here because people who are younger, their mindsets tend to be more open, I think.
they tend to think more things are possible. So the cynicism or being jaded hasn't set in as fully as someone who's maybe my age, like in the 40s. But otherwise, it's just, there's a lot of blind spots, man.
And then the other area with someone who's not being certified, just period, I find that that gets really tricky when I watch them coach because I'm like, that person doesn't know what they're doing. They can't spot the real issue. That's the heart of the issue.
And I'm not saying that I necessarily can see it like right off the bat either, but I've been trained in a certain line of inquiry to help get there, to help that person identify like what's the thing that's causing everything for them. And I tell you, it's like if you've ever had bad coaching, you never forget the experience. It's such a deeply like an intensely personal experience.
It's just like why people when they go to therapy and you'll hear people say that it's taken them a long time. They can't find the good therapist or they've tried it a couple times and then they'll just write off the whole experience. They're like therapy is not for them and it's because of the same reasons.
Now, it's weird because to be a therapist, you do have to be licensed. you have to have gone through several years of training both in the school and in the field right like in the clinic and yet you still have people of varying levels and people who may not be able to connect to the client build rapport help them feel seen and understood and still it's kind of the same issues like helping them get to the root of the problem i see a lot of parallels between coaching and therapy Because a lot of people, and this is strange because therapists have to undergo rigorous training and peer review, and they're often checking in with their mentors. It's something that they can lose their license for.
Yet we know, like different coaches, teachers, and therapists, even if you've been trained and accredited license, there's all different kinds of therapists, all different kinds of coaches. And just, it could just be chemistry. Like it didn't work for a number of different reasons.
And, and that some of it, I think the, the client has to take some responsibility for, but you know, we were talking about this where I don't know if we can say, but there was somebody that you think maybe I'm just wasting my time trying to help this person. Cause I don't think they're actually applying the things that I'm talking about. And you're kind of like conflicted because you're thinking, well, This is not going to work.
I think I just need to let them go. And I think it's in that conversation we were talking. I said, maybe you have to let them go, but you do.
I think you need to tell them somehow. Right. And what did you decide to tell them?
How did you resolve this? And I'm curious how it's going. Well, I think when we had the conversation, I was like, I think I need to have a come to Jesus moment with this person.
And I believe you asked me like what I might say. And then you gave me your suggestion. so how that went was i couldn't i decided not to wait because she had delayed her regular coaching session with me and i was like i need to i need to get in here and so here's what i was seeing why this was an issue is that i've been working with this person for over two years now and she clearly gets some value out of the relationship she gets a lot of emotional support she gets guidance around sort of the foundation of being you know such as setting boundaries and how to figure out her priorities Etc but every time it comes to really enforcing boundaries there was always a miss here anytime it came to doing something hard like doing real work it would just be disappearance there would be silence for example I had asked her to start a Pinterest account and then Never heard back for the next two months and that was like a consistent theme here.
I would say okay What about this and she'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it So that was the first thing is to constantly say yes to everything I suggested and So just being a yes man, I'm like, how is this realistic? I know I have a pretty good look into your life and I just don't think it's possible for you to actually do everything you're signing on to.
So then it becomes a question of trust and credibility for me. But number two is the silence. To me, that's the real killer in any relationship is I don't know where you're at with something.
There's no follow through. There's no communication on your end saying, I can't do this or I don't want to do this. You know, it's not that I expect her to do it.
I know a couple months back, we had a conversation about how whenever you see something as hard, you go out of communication. You just stop communicating. And I've already expressed how that's difficult for me.
And so this has been continuing and now I question whether I'm the right person to coach you and I don't know if I should continue taking your money is what I said. And so at the time because it's kind of late at night, she said, okay. Okay.
Thank you. And she said, she said I'm seeing it's not okay for me to just be silent or to never respond. And I was like, yes.
And again, I don't expect you to do everything. I just need you to tell me where you're at and whether you will do something or whether you're like, F off Jewel. I have no intention of doing that.
I think that's a dumb idea. I'm like, that's fine. Great.
Now I know where I stand or where we stand. So then fast forward three days later, it was, it was an entire, um, I'm not gonna say it's a meltdown, but she had some strong reactions about it. It was a little bit tricky, but we ended on the same page and I think we're moving forward.
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Subject to change. What was the meltdown? Can you say?
She was brave enough to express to me that at the time my lips were saying what I just told you I said, but she heard you're not worthy and I'm going to leave you. I don't want to work with you anymore. How did she process that?
What do you mean? Well, you said one thing she heard I'm not worthy. And so what is her response to interpreting the message like that?
Really strong emotions. You know, there were tears. There was, it was a mix, you know, it was a mixed bag.
Like it was a hard moment, of course. But can I just say, like, I'm so impressed by her because she had the mental fortitude to step back and to take a look at my character and to know that what she heard probably wasn't what she heard. Like, even look at the way she phrased it.
She was like, I know you said something else, but this is how I heard it. So she was taking responsibility for her reaction. And so she took a step back and she said, I think what you were trying to tell me was this, am I right?
And I said, 100%, 100, 100%. And so it was just the idea. I was like, you know, just to remind you again, like as a coach, as an ICF certified coach, There is a like a board of ethics like there is for therapy.
And so when you take on this credential, you're assigning yourself to say you will be bound by these ethics. And one of the ethics and coaching that I think people don't know is that you not sell yourself as like rent a friend, you know, like your client wants a certain goal achieved with you as the partner. And if you see them veering off the path, like this is what you have to do.
You have to have a conversation. And this is not the first time we've had this conversation. It's been multiple times through the two-year relationship.
And it's not easy. So there's one thing she said, which I thought was such a beautiful lesson for anyone who might ever hear this. She was saying, you know, I want you to know because you're talking about money.
She said, I pour my heart and soul into the work I do. I bring so much love to the work I do and I pay you from the money I earn not from the money that my husband earns this is my money and I'm giving it to you and I was like oh my god you know in a way what you're saying is it's love right you're you're giving your clients love you're receiving love in return and now you're giving me that same love and I told her you know, all I'm looking for is for you to honor that exchange and make sure that you're honoring that for yourself as well. Because at the point that we keep coming back to is you're giving me the love, but where's the love you would show yourself?
That's what's missing. I'm curious, are you trained, required, or strongly encouraged to return money or cancel clients? where it's ineffective or maybe it's turned into potentially a codependent relationship or a dependent one.
There is a strong recommendation that you end that kind of relationship. and or have them seek counseling or therapy. The ideal situation is if someone is in a codependent relationship or you see codependent signs, number one, this should never happen in either scenario therapy or coaching because both of these professions are there to give you the tools to support yourself, you know, to not be the constant caretaker and to not be the person who's always going to pick you up and put the pieces back together.
It's like you're here for a reason to know how to do this for yourself at some future point. That's the general guidance that we get in our world of the ICF. So ideal world is they would have coaching and also have a therapist to work through these issues in tandem.
And like super ideal is if they give permission for the coach and the therapist to actually talk with each other. But they don't always do that. Do you think that someone else in your shoes, a quote unquote coach, would have acted in a similar way?
Or do you think they just keep the money or maybe turn them down in a way that it's hard for them to process? You know, I really hate to say this, but given all the coaching communities that I'm in, I would say that someone, it's like less than a 50% chance for other people to handle this. In my coaching school, there's a personality assessment that they put out.
And consistently, so it's got seven levels and level four is the caretaking personality of which I, of course, have a lot to, you know, all of us do. But consistently as coaches, that caretaking level will be the highest and the strongest. It's not the highest and strongest for me, but it used to be.
So I consistently see feeds like posts on Facebook or other forums where people are struggling with not not even something which to me this is relatively complicated let's just say a client is late or a client hasn't paid they haven't received payment up front for a client and and the work they've done with the client and they're already struggling I'm like if you can't even handle something so basic as being paid up front and on time to me there's like a very very low possibility that a coach in the same kind of situation I'm in with something that's looking, smelling a little bit like codependency or someone who's not living up to their end of the bargain. Yeah, they're not gonna say something. I highly doubt it.
- So it's not even driven by money. It's just driven by their caretaker personality that says, I somehow can save this soul. I can make this work because it's giving them something.
Like somebody really needs me right now and I can't turn my back on them. - Yeah, and a fear of conflict, a huge fear of conflict. That plus what they think is the identity of a coach.
And I fall into this trap all the time. Well, maybe less so these days, but in the first couple of years, it was all the time for me. So I've noticed that there's this like weird, like effed up vision we hold in our heads of how we're supposed to be as a person because we're a coach.
Like we're somehow supposed to transcend all the bullshit and be better than other people. And yet I find amongst coaches that avoidance fear of conflict uh people pleasing are extremely strong extremely because of that caretaker-ness where do you think we should take this now I think we should take it to you because I feel like you have a lot of caretaking attributes yourself sure do little child oh there we go and I think that's what people would find surprising about you because of your online your public persona you come off like super ruthless, right? People have called you the razor blade.
And then to really get to know you and then to watch you with some of these friendships you have in your life. And I was like, oh, caretaking. Yeah.
I've struggled with this for a long time. I didn't know that's what I was doing until I went to see my therapist, Joan. And Joan told me it's pretty classic middle child stuff here.
And she she before she did any work with me, she wanted to know my parents history, our family tree and structure and birth order and all those kinds of things, because it gave her a psychological profile and emotional profile probably too. So when she told me I was a caretaker, I'm like, that's not me. But then when we replayed instances from my childhood and also in my professional life, the reason why i came to her was because i was realizing i realized something that i was more concerned about employees who disagreed with me and their mental welfare than my own mental welfare and so i would acquiesce but i did it in a way that i can see now was passive aggressive where i'm like okay i don't want you to do that but i'm not going to get into a fight with you right now just let water go into the bridge but then it would build up and build up a lot of resentment inside of me And I'm not one to say like I'm in the church of Brene Brown, but I think there's a lot of truth to what she says.
She says, choose discomfort over resentment when it comes to boundaries and speaking up. And I try to like remember that every single time, like choose discomfort. It's uncomfortable for me to tell you, no, I'm not going to pick you up.
No, I'm not going to give you this thing. And no, you can't stay here because that little bit of discomfort is would then save our relationship for me growing into a state of resentment in which i will one day just disappear and say you know what i don't really want to hang out with you anymore i don't find you to be interesting or i think you take advantage of me and i've learned i've had to you know for me When I learn a concept and I feel it's true, then I start to take action against it. And so the person that you meet today, probably in the social space, because I did this inner work before I went on social media, is that I have a better sense of who I am and the boundaries I want to set.
That doesn't mean that people can't push on those levers intentionally or unintentionally. And the old me comes out and then the new me has to say, wait, wait, wait, are we feeling something? How do we want to respond to this?
Cause I also don't want to respond to every single little thing. I feel it's too petty. And sometimes I think that's where it starts to be this snowball effect where you let one transgression go by and then another and another, and then wait, wait, wait, now they're just not little transgressions anymore.
Or maybe it's just death by a thousand paper cuts. And eventually you just get tired of people. I'm like, no, I don't want to be around you anymore.
And the way I do that is I recede into the background is don't call you back. I don't respond. It's not like I need to have a big, my own come to Jesus conversation with folks.
I think I'm a little surprised, like surprised and not surprised because that's where we would handle it differently. Yeah. Yeah.
Cause I think I would have a conversation with someone, even my friends, like, Like, don't get me wrong. Probably like five, 10 years ago, I was a person who would just like cut you out of my life, would not say anything. That's more sudden, I think, than what you're describing, which is like a slow receding away, like a fading away.
But yeah, I think I'm a little surprised because I think I see you as someone who would just speak your mind. Well, I would say that More so today. Well, let me just say this when I coach people who've had a lifetime of one habit one thought process one belief and that when presented with a new idea, very few people can actually just completely change their life 180 degrees, turn it all upside down and just divorce themselves of the old idea.
And I always tell people, I'm glad that this new idea serves you, but don't be so quick to say I'm cured of whatever ailment. And I would ask people who had drinking challenges, an addiction to alcohol, I said, so you're cured. And they would say to you pretty, like almost to the person, You're never cured of alcoholism.
You're just trying to get through it day by day. And you know that if you start to tell yourself you're cured, you can slip back down that path really quickly. So the way I look at it is my caretaker tendencies haven't gone away.
They're just there and I have to be mindful it's still there and exists. And I've done a much better job of speaking up, telling people how I feel, despite how it may make us uncomfortable. Now, here's the classic irony of all this stuff.
I have an easier time telling people that I know, like and trust what I really think versus strangers. You would think it would be the opposite, right? Like, I don't know you, you don't know me.
So it don't matter what we really think of each other. So I'm going to tell you where I stand on things. but in fact it's the people that i feel most close to that i can really sit there and say you know what that thing that you do really bothers me what i would say is i'm not going to let you get away with that whatever that statement is how however innocuous it innocuous it's it feels i'm going to have to say no you can't say that and please don't say that about me i'll give you an example okay i remember one time my wife and i were talking and and otto is our oldest son and he's 20 turning 21 soon And he's very high achieving.
And my wife's like, why are you so thrifty with giving him praise and saying to him, you're proud of him? I said, well, I can make a greater effort. And I started to really think about this and like, why don't do something?
And then I was having a conversation with our mutual friend, Emily. And I said, you know, I feel really uncomfortable saying I'm proud. And I want to tell you why and why I'm really kind of tight on it.
I said, usually parents say that to their children, but I don't want to say it. And then she was like, whoa, wait, wait a minute. You mean you're not proud of your friends?
I'm like, no, what right do I have to be proud of them? And so this is like shocking to her. Well, she goes, well, I'm proud of you.
I'm like, well, hmm, let me explain. So we got into this kind of really big, deep, emotional conversation. And allow me to explain this.
And Jewel, I'd love to get your perspective on this. I said, if I say I'm proud of you, that means there are times when I'm not proud of you pretty clearly. And I think most parents use that phrase as a means to control their children.
You might not think of it like that, but oftentimes it's, oh, you got a great job. You went to school and you, you studied the thing I wanted you to study. And I'm proud of you.
Or it could be like you gave money to charity. I'm proud of you. Cause that's what we want you to do.
Or you turn the other cheek. I'm proud of you. So I said, Part of loving someone unconditionally, unconditional means without condition.
So I love my children. I would lay down my life for my children and there's nothing I would not do for them. And I've been telling them this since they were like little children, barely old enough to understand the words.
And the thing that I would tell them like late at night, I would say to them something to the fact of like, I want you to know that I love you. And that there is nothing that you could ever do to make me stop loving you. And you don't need to do anything different than to be you for me to love you.
And if anyone else ever tells you this in your life, it is completely untrue. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I would say that over and over and over again.
When I told my therapist that this is what I was saying, she goes, just don't put any question marks on it. Because I used to say, do you know daddy loves you? She said, turn that into a statement.
It's not a question. Dad loves you. And so I keep thinking if my children don't get good grades, don't go to a good school, don't do their homework, get in trouble with the law, get into all kinds of things.
I'm still proud of you because I'm proud that you are my child. And so when I explained it to her like that, I think her head was like about to split open. It's like, I don't want to be proud of them.
I am proud of them always. And there isn't a time that I'm not proud of them. And I said, also, I don't say I'm proud to my friends because what did I really do to claim that I'm proud of you?
That's like a parental thing. And I think without people realizing it, it is violent language because you're saying i have power over you my opinion my authority my approval matters to you and i'm going to say it i'm proud of you now it's a very innocent thing so this is what you say to your friends and to your loved ones don't let my crazy ideas about this but i really do think about the words that we use and how the words shape our emotions and capture our version of reality. And they record stories in our brain.
And so that's where I just sit there and think like, why don't I do something? There is a good reason, at least for me. And maybe I'm radical about this.
Maybe I'm strange, but I'm curious about your thoughts, Jewel. And I'm curious from our audience. When you listen to this episode or in the comments, let me know if you think I'm crazy or maybe this is a point of view that more parents have to have.
I heard this thing, I think it was said by the yogi said guru, and he said something like children are born perfect. It's their parents who mess them up. And so the best thing you can do as a parent is to do as little harm as possible.
It's impossible not to do harm. But he says do as little harm as possible. Because those innocent statements that you say as a parent, like, oh, why can't you ever be on time?
Or why are you so clumsy? And it's just a little moment of frustration in your life. You don't really mean those things.
But your child process these things in a whole different way. Just like when they do something good and you're like, I'm proud of you. Like, oh, that's what I need to do to get dad to like me, to love me.
And I need to do more of that. And what they do is they start to externalize their own self-worth to you. And when you aren't around, like either you pass away or they're in a different circle, they're looking to someone else as a surrogate to replace you.
And then someone else will have control over your children. And I don't want to do that. Now, I don't want to get into the whole parenting and all that kind of stuff, but I have a lot of crazy philosophies and reasons why I do what I do.
Man, like I can only imagine what people are going to think when they listen to this, because I still remember the first time you expressed any version of this. I think it was three years ago and you were talking about this unconditional love. And I remember like wanting to cry.
And I think because like most people, I don't actually feel like my parents did. have unconditional love. In my mind, I'm thinking if I somehow effed up or murdered someone, ended up in jail or prison, my parents would disown me is what I'm thinking.
And yet I struggle because my parents have told me almost every single day of my life that they love me. do they love me there's no doubt i just question whether it's conditional or unconditional so the first time i heard you say this like i almost bawled my eyes out and i was like oh my god i want to cry and you're like how come and i was like i don't know it's it's it's so much Because I had never actually personally known somebody as a parent who was bold enough to come out and say this. I'd never witnessed it with my own eyes.
And it really triggered like this super strong reaction in me. So when you said to Annalie or whoever it was that it's not really something you say like the whole I'm proud of you to your kids, let alone to somebody else. I think many people don't understand that the history of saying that phrase is It's generally reserved for within your family, especially from parent to child, or those who are very close to you, people who had a hand in your achievement or your progress in some way, right?
So there's like a very tight association by implication if you use that phrase. And yet I have plenty of strangers like out there, people who just like my vibe. They see me on online.
They say it. And so there is like a hierarchy associated there of some kind, like what you're saying, which I think a lot of people don't get. But this other piece that you're just describing with saying I'm proud of you kind of implies there are moments that I'm not proud of you.
I don't think a lot of people think about that. And when you are raised in a culture like many of us, or maybe really all of us, where parents may unconsciously telegraph that love is conditional upon performance of any kind. I think that's where it gets really hard.
It gets so hard. We don't understand that our children are like plants and we are the sun for them. So every which way we turn, right, they turn with us.
And if we're not careful to show them that they can stand on their own and that the sun is always there, regardless, you end up with most people out here running around living their lives and being triggered with stuff. And I still feel like strong emotions coming up when I listened to you about this. And the last bit, when you said you're somebody who thinks about the words you use, that's me too.
Again, I know this isn't all people. We all communicate in different channels. So some people are more about the nonverbals, less about the words.
But the words really mattering. Like they really do. Especially in how they shape our reality, like you said.
But also because when you use the wrong words, you can inadvertently shift your emotions and what you're feeling. So for instance, somebody I was coaching yesterday, he kept saying, he has to have like a emotional reaction to something and I was just like but what emotions it's very it's very vague like to me that doesn't really tell me much so what emotions and to have granularity in the words you're using which is the frustration I have with some of my friends where they're like yeah but that's not how people normally use the words you know that's not what people normally mean i'm like okay but so then how do we get on the same page of communication how would you handle that kind of response which response is someone saying that's not how people normally say that or that's not how people normally mean the words well i would say how do you how do you know what is normal and who defined normal i would just ask more questions and while you were speaking there i'm pretty sure there's going to be a couple of people who are listening to this or watching this video who are going to get really upset for a lot of different reasons, or they might have a strong emotional reaction to the kinds of things that we're talking about. Anytime you talk about parents or children, it is going to open up a diverse box to a lot of unresolved childhood trauma either way.
And I'm not going to tell you I'm any different because when I see organizations take really good care of children, I get really emotional because I was, I was a, I'm really happy for those children, but also kind of pining for my own childhood. Like I wish I had this when I was growing up. And so we feel a little bit of self pity there, I think.
and sorrow for our own childhood. But I would ask everyone to try to do this thing. Write down 10 things that you hold to be true, 10 beliefs that you have, whatever they might be, just write them down.
And then do this thing that I think I read in Austin Kleon's book, and show your work or steal like an artist. Actually, it was in my interview with him. He said, "Try this thing where you do this genealogy of your ideas." When he was trying to do steal like an artist, he was saying, "Who first said this to steal like an artist?" He went and traced it back as far as he could.
Then he found the mother or father of the idea. But if you have beliefs, just retrace, how did you come to believe this thing? It can almost always be traced back to your childhood and then try to see where it came from.
It came from a book, a TV show, a sibling, a parent, something like that. And then ask yourself this question was how reliable was the source of information? What was it in response to?
And if it weren't in your own childhood and somebody had said this to you as an adult, would you still believe this and i think this is where everything starts to become unraveled right so joel when you said most people don't think like that or that's not normal for people to think like that i'm like how do we even know what normal is you have finite experience you might know 10 12 people well enough to say like well that's normal and then the rest of the people are just assumptions i think and even if it were normal or bad Should we not do this anymore? Like hurting people, I think most people would agree is not a good thing to do. But if the entire country wants to hurt people, do you say, well, well, that's what normal is.
Let's go do normal. So even if it's normal, which I doubt it is, if it normal is bad, should you do that? And I think, no, that's what.
what it means to have conviction and what it means to have a moral code that you live by. Shoot, man, you're making me think that would have been the perfect response to a lot of the comments I got on my TikTok and Instagram. So I made a video about how you should probably not say I'm proud of you.
Like it pisses people off, but people are unable to articulate why. So this is me going down the rabbit hole after one client session because I'm i was like oh interesting somebody has a huge problem with this so then i go research it and i'm pulling apart like all the threads i'm like okay i get it now so i make a video it's very interesting the responses I get. They're like either on this end of the spectrum or this end.
So the first end being people who are like, "Oh my god, thank you for explaining this. I could never put into words why it made me so angry when people said that to me." But then on the other hand, you had people who were like, "I've never had a problem with this. No one has ever said to me that there was anything wrong with this." Like maybe it's a you problem is the last comment I got like in the last week.
Like basically I'm crazy oversensitive and I was like, okay, one, I never said I have a problem with this. I'm just saying maybe if you are interested in having easier relationships with people, perhaps not say this. So that was, that was really interesting.
I don't know. It was, I didn't expect something to me. It seems so innocent to spark so many comments.
Like you're crazy. Never had a problem. It's a you, it's a you thing.
Yeah. I can see why they responded like that though. I haven't seen that post in particular, but if you said, here's why I don't like this phrase and I'll tell you my reasoning for it versus you shouldn't say this because then now it's like, well, now you're criticizing me.
How I versus you should. I think it's a small but very big difference between those two things. So I say, if somebody wants to say they're proud of me, I'm good with it.
I don't feel offended at all because you know why? And here's the dark, ugly, unfiltered truth. I don't really care what you say.
That's the bottom line. But I know a lot of people do, and they can be sent in a lot of different directions. First of all, let's explore these two possible outcomes, okay?
Somebody comes up to you that kind of knows you, and you did something that they may or may not have been involved in, and you have great success. They're like, I'm really proud of you, Jimmy or Mary. And the first reaction is like, wow, thank you.
But are you taking credit for what this outcome is? Is that why you're proud of me? Or do you think I hold you in such esteem that I care that you be proud of me?
Or all my parents say I'm proud of me and I care what they say, but who the F are you? And then you start going down all kinds of other emotions and reactions. So a lot of them are not good possible outcomes.
Or we can just say, we'll just ignore it. It's not really a big deal. So that means you've wasted words today.
I don't want to waste any words, especially as an introvert. I want to say things that matter, that have impact and are intentional and align with what I'm really thinking. And if I say something wrong, I'd like to know why.
And then I want to make adjustments. I don't want to keep doing it just because it's a good habit or it's a habit that I have. And so a lot of times when people say things like paying someone a compliment and I would say to them, you know, that's a violent thing you just did.
And they're shocked that I would say that. and then i would have to go through this whole rabbit hole and explain to them like why and he said if you're curious you should watch this video on this and you'll see and in fact the person i'm talking about is our friend rich and he was saying something like i'm proud of them for doing this or whatever it is and i explained to him and then he was just giving me a hard time he goes chris i'm very proud that you told me that i shouldn't be proud that wanker that's so good yeah so i'm like whatever whatever, hold on to your beliefs. So I think the thing that a lot of people have a reaction to is you should or shouldn't.
And then all of a sudden, like, wait, wait, who are you telling me what to do? And it's funny because I always think like this, where if someone says something you don't agree with and you're not a big fan of theirs, just move on. Why bother even giving a comment?
But I think everyone feels so Not entitled, but they feel it's so necessary to express your opinion on every single thing that we get pulled into these polarizing conversations and debates because it gets our emotional juices flowing. But I don't know if it's horribly productive. If I don't agree with something, I just don't watch it.
Yeah, I did question why so many people felt this strong urge to argue with me on my video. I'm like, why didn't you just scroll by? And then I'm turning that back on myself too, right?
Because I'm like, why do I feel the need to defend myself? And I'm like, well, some of the time I'm just asking a question to see if there's been any thought process in their response. Most of the time, no.
I think what's interesting is when I ask a question and then they make it personal. I'm like, what the hell was that you know like like the person who was like well it sounds like a you problem based on some question i asked him and i was like okay well sir it sounds like you're not interested in having like a real conversation so have a good day And like that's about it. But let me rewind back to something you said.
You don't have a problem with the phrase because you're like basically I don't care what you say or what you think about me. I have a different response to that. So when someone says they're proud of me, I don't really care.
But it's because I'm weighing their intent. So I'm looking at their intent behind the words. I'm like most people are not as careful of their words.
I understand that. what are they trying to do in this moment i think they're just trying to show me love and i'm a huge believer in just letting the love in take it in yeah i think i would i would probably take it the same way you took it which is okay thanks appreciate it sometimes you know i don't have to sit there and chop words because people don't think about things that that in that same insane detail. So I'm like, thank you.
We just move on. That's all. What was the thing?
I think you mentioned something you wanted to talk about at the very beginning of this. Yeah, I can. I can talk about that.
But is there more to this that we want to pull apart? Not more to this, but there's potentially a bridge because I was you know, I was telling you I was thinking about accountability, responsibility, boundaries, And then the latest thing about values. Remember like how I'm telling you there are some things happening where when a certain type of thing happens, something I perceive as weakness, and then I start to lose respect.
So respect is like really, yeah, that's, that's really hard. So I asked my husband at lunch and I was like, how would you define what respect is? And he was like, what the hell?
Just Google that. I don't know how to answer that. It's like a hard question.
We use it, but we don't know. Yeah. And I think that's the issue with most of the things that we are faced with as challenges today.
My guess that that would be to hold you in high regard, high esteem. And if you lose that, then I kind of look down on you or I don't see you as an equal anymore. Okay, that's interesting.
i think the distinction of what you just said the very last bit um i don't see you as an equal anymore wasn't really in my picture of the understanding but i think that is what happens with a lot of people so here i can i can respect the way somebody does something but not respect them like i can respect that you want to live your life the way you want to live it or to eat the kind of food you want to eat or talk to people the way you want to talk to because i'm not king of the world no one elected me And I'm not looking to have that kind of dominion or that control or power over people. So I believe that there can be, and we're probably going to get skewered for this, is multiple versions of air quotes truths. And both of our realities can be real and both of them can be false until there's like objectively verifiable data.
Then we just don't know. And I have a way of living and thinking and And beliefs that drive me that have led me to a place of contentment, of happiness, of success, that if people want to learn that, I'm happy to share it. But if something else works for you, as you say, you do that thing.
The classic example is I'm very much a soft-spoken, inbound person. building content and getting people to gather around saying, Chris, we want to give you something and say, well, that's fantastic. I must be doing something right at this point.
And there are people are like, no, you can't be passive about this. You must be proactive. You must go and reach out to people in an outbound way and just ask for opportunities all the time.
Those are two polarizing, like polar opposite ideas, inbound versus outbound. I think they can work in harmony. One is not better than the other.
It's whatever works for you. But I live my life a certain way. And so if people want to learn that, then I want to share that thing.
And then I find that there are people who have tremendous success doing outbound. Like this person I've mentioned to you, Neil Dhingra. He's literally a, give me a sales list and I'm just going to call people.
I'm going to DM every single one of them. I'm going to leave a message on all of them. And he's very, very successful.
He's made a lot of money. And just the mere thought of that just makes me want to like crawl back in bed and it's like, wake me up when it's Wednesday. Cause I don't want to do that.
And probably for him, the kinds of things that I do make him like, dude, that's infuriating. Why would you sit around and wait for it to happen? It's just two different ways of existence.
And that's why I can, respect the way that you do something while not having respect for you. And usually it's because of this idea of accountability and a broader term weakness. Okay.
So what's the difference between respecting what someone is doing versus respect for someone? How does one gain respect from you, Chris, as a person then? Shoot.
- You set yourself up for this, man. - Shoot, I don't think I set myself up for this, but now you're asking a really hard question. I would ask this first question, why would anyone need to earn my respect?
What does it do for anybody? I admire certain people. Should I answer the question that way?
Who do you admire and why? I don't know. I feel like you're dodging the question because like, can we be in friendships or relationships with people where we knowingly, or we know that they don't respect us?
I feel like that's a ton. Oh, that's a good question. Yeah.
I don't think like true friendship is, can exist from a place where you don't respect each other. But it takes a while for us to understand. For example, if you meet someone who looks totally different than you, comes from a different culture, uses different ways of saying things, your initial reaction is to associate them with someone else or some group of people.
And you might assume, okay, those people talk like this and act like this and they're not trustworthy, they're not ambitious or driven, whatever it is that you want to put it on, some form of like low-key racism. Or prejudice. Let's just soften the word and not call it racism, but call it prejudice.
Okay. Because it doesn't have anything to do with race. and you put them in a category so you might not have any respect for them.
The example would be people who wear very baggy pants, men who like let it hang around their waist. And we see all kinds of people, Asian, white, black, Latino, all kinds. So you look at them, you're like, uh, your pants are really low.
I can't take you seriously. But that person could be the CEO of a company or who could have graduated from Ivy league school, whatever metrics you want to use for success. And you think that person deserves my respect.
So I think initially when we encounter people, we jump to conclusions about who they are. And I don't think it's necessarily horrible that we do that because it's a way of using our brain efficiently. So we're not sitting there processing every single person on an individual level.
We're making decisions if we should fight, flight, or what's the third one? Some other F. Freeze.
Freeze. Yeah. So we don't know if it's one of these three that we should do.
So that's a shorthand, like we process things. But when we get to know someone, I think then we say to ourselves, I was wrong. My assumptions about you were X, Y, and Z, and they're totally different.
Like people might see one video of me and think, what an arrogant a-hole who is just talking out of both sides of his mouth, who doesn't know what he's doing. And they may watch another video or another video, or they might see me in the street somewhere and have a real conversation with me. And they're like, wow, Chris, I was wrong about you.
And at first I appreciate that it takes a lot for especially men to say I was wrong and to then approach me and to stay in that long enough to say my bias got the best of me, but I stayed in it because I was curious and then it led me to this place and I was brave enough to say this. I really do appreciate that. But on the other side, I was thinking, why do we have such strong assumptions about people and so little information?
You know, I, I drive people crazy when they say this, they didn't have enough data points. One or two things should not be the entire thing. It's like two shreds of evidence that you think, okay, I'm done.
I'm not a hung jury, but it's like unanimous done. You're guilty. You're innocent.
That's where it gets really dangerous So I think there's a natural period of time in which two strangers get to know each other and they may swing back and forth of giving taking receiving respect and at some point they they arrive at a place where they can really say I don't really respect that person I I think this is one of the hardest questions like I've ever started exploring and I don't have it fully figured out yet. I think what you're saying is interesting because I I started Googling this today. I started asking ChatGPT to help me like tease out some of these nuances in the thinking.
And it kind of says the opposite of what you're saying. Or maybe it's the same. Because it's saying that you can not respect someone's actions and yet still respect them as a person.
Perhaps your respect for the overall person lessens because of what you see them doing. And yet you're still able to hold respect of them, the big picture of them as a person, while acknowledging your own disappointment in seeing the actions that they're choosing. And I thought, my reaction in the moment was, I think that's a more enlightened, like that would require a fairly enlightened person to draw those kind of distinctions.
I don't know that I'm there yet. It's, it's me struggling with my own judgment. When I see my friends acting in a way that does not align with my own beliefs or my values.
And then there's this thing of my boundaries, like how much of that do I want to be around? And now if we're talking about respect, so the interesting bit when I was asking my husband what's respect, and I was describing some of the scenarios that I've been seeing over the past like month, And he was like, I think what you're talking about is really admiration. And I was like, oh.
Oh, same words I used. Yeah. See?
I feel like if you ever meet Jason, you would like him. He probably thinks similarly. We're all three a little bit.
You know, we have something in common. I was like, admiration. So I take a step back and I look at it and I was like, oh, I see.
So when we're talking about the meanings of words shifting, right? Like how... they're actually defined in the dictionary or in psychology versus how they're used in the mainstream.
This is one of those words that has a split here. So if you look in the dictionary, it means to have full awareness and appreciation for a person's humanity. And I was like, okay.
i don't think i ever really lose that for anybody out there not even like criminals so then i asked chat gpt i was like okay but i don't think this is how people normally use the word this is not what we mean and i give it an example and so then it comes back with something that's actually pretty good i thought i said it's it's conditional and i was like oh ouch it's conditional so there's this intersection between your values your boundaries and then maybe like a resonance and that intersection there in the middle is respect. That's how we're typically using the word. So there has to be some alignment between all three of these areas for us to then say, because what I told ChatGPT was, I feel like we generally use the word in regards to seeing someone doing something that we think was hard.
something that is deserving of recognition or is noteworthy. You don't say I respect you for doing your laundry. I'm like, that's the bare basic to life.
But, you know, one of my people that I coached yesterday, he's coming up on a year of having gone to the gym, working out five days a week, every week. And I was like, i have mad respect for you man that is crazy like i love that so then that had me dialing back and i was like okay so what about the moments when i feel like i'm losing respect for someone it's exactly like this thing with chat gpt so the reason why i'm talking about this is because i had a coaching session where i was the one being coached and i was telling my coach that i think it's like me losing respect for someone is primarily rooted in a conflict in values I don't think she agreed with that. She was saying that it's the conflict I'm experiencing is because of my filters.
Like my filters are different from other people's filters. And I'm like, okay, isn't that what values are? Like, like at least part of that, you don't look like you fully agree.
No, I do agree. Okay. And as you describe this, because I've done zero research, I've talked to zero robots.
I was trying to map out what you said. Like, did I describe myself clearly? And is this really how I think?
If not... I look at it like everybody gets to live their life the way they want by their own rules and their values. And somebody might look at me and say, you're not a very ethical person.
I might look at them and say this exact same thing. So there's no universal like this is this is that it's heavily based on context and what's going on. So I think when we say like I look down on somebody, that means I think I've lost all respect for them.
And so there are different perspectives. different criteria for that. I can respect that they're hardworking.
They're a good friend. that they take care of others and they're generous, but there's things that they can't or don't seem to take accountability for. And so for me, it's I'm very flexible with this kind of stuff.
And I give people lots of latitude because I know I'm an imperfect person myself. I do dumb, stupid things, hopefully less as I get older, but I still do dumb, stupid things all the time. It's not fair to judge myself in such a way that every time I mess up like, oh, you're such an idiot.
You don't deserve respect or love or appreciation or admiration. And so I think the same, it's like, what is good for me must be good for others. So I think there's a large latitude there.
So I think rephrasing my statement, I think I respect the fact that people have a different way of moving in the world, that their individual actions, sometimes I have challenges with myself. And when they do enough of them that hint at a core value, then something feels funny inside. Like, I don't know if I want to open the fullness of my heart to this person because there's something misaligned in values.
So I must be very enlightened, Jewel, because that's what you said. Tongue in cheek, everybody. How convenient, man.
Yes, you are correct in describing my exact belief better than I could have. Okay, so let me describe this coaching session I had with my coach. Towards the end, like if you've never had coaching, you're listening to us, it generally starts with what do you want to talk about?
And then towards the end, it has to move to some sort of conclusion which is not always the case with therapy this is a major difference between the two modalities here so coaching is meant for you to like take action like you realize something or even if you don't it's meant for you to take action and move forward in some way so at the end she asks me what do you want to do and I said I think I need to reevaluate some of the relationships in my life and possibly take a step back and she goes why and I said because It's now been long enough that I believe I have a fairly clear picture of someone, like a well-rounded picture of people in my life. It's not like I've only known them for like two weeks, you know, I'm seeing a difference in values. And if you've been listening to this and you don't understand this bit about the boundaries, the boundaries are, I don't want to be around that anymore.
So this is where it can get a little bit murky here because in coaching, and I'm sure they tell you this in therapy too, when you're a therapist, you cannot be attached to someone's outcomes. So if a client comes to me and they're like, I want to do this, I want to do this, and they never take action, you're not supposed to be attached to whether they take the action. And so for me, I'm not, it's more that I need them to have honesty.
So honesty is probably my top value. And my coach was like, yeah, like that's like the first word I think of when I think of you. And she did a really good job in pointing out attachment though.
so attachment to my values and I was like but don't I get to be attached to that so it I the irony I think is I felt like she was judging me for making the decision I made at the end of the session she's like don't you be so judging Joel wait what - Irony. - Yeah. So me saying, I just don't wanna be around certain kind of energies.
And by energies, I mean, it's really a difference in values. Like I wanna be around people who are honest, who are brave enough to be honest, who speak up and ask for what they want, who will try to help themselves instead of relying on me for 100% of the help always. Like that's what I want in my friends and my family.
And I don't think, like she took exception to that for some reason. So yeah, I was like, oh, okay, attachment and judgment. But we're human, right?
Like that's part of human nature. - See, I respect that you get to have your own worldview. And if you wish to set up boundaries and say, I don't wanna be around that, I think that's your prerogative.
Because I think when I judge you for that, then I say, I hold a superior position. I have some enlightenment over you. And to say like, my way is better, I think is a dangerous position to take.
- I mean, it can be. you know i think it would be different if i had come to her and said these are my views and I don't want to be around this kind of energy. And yet I'm still having some kind of problem.
So in my mind, a coach and a therapist, they share the same mission where they will point out like the problems and where you say, this is what you want. And yet there's a gap here. There's some sort of discrepancy.
But for me, there was no discrepancy. I was like, this is the conclusion. And I think this is the right next step for me.
And to have her question that I was a little bit like, what just happened? That was weird. So yeah, Yeah, so perhaps it was attachment and judgment as well.
See, it's this is what I mean, though, as a coach and probably for therapists, this attachment to the identity of what that means. If you're in those professions, like you're somehow supposed to transcend this. Yeah, I see.
I think I have a very specific way of looking at the world. Like, here's what I want to eat. Here's how I want to move my body and use energy.
here's how I want to nourish my mind. And these are the kinds of relationships I want to build. And this is how I want to parent my own children.
And this is the business I want to build. And this is how I want to show up online. This is how I want to dress and send signals out into the world.
And I'm okay with someone else saying, everything you said is totally not for me. I'm like, I'm good with that. But then I say, for the people who want to have what I have or think what I think and eat what I eat and wear what I wear, I'm going to help you.
But like you said, from any teacher coach point of view, if you have misalignment between what you express your beliefs or goals and outcomes are, but the actions are incongruent with that outcome, then I think the relationship is such that I must say something. The degree will probably depend on what the stakes are between the two of us. But I feel compelled to say something because If you want to do these things, then you got to just let go of some old ideas.
So I'll share one thing with you. I think I'm okay with saying this. One of my buddies, Rich, who produces our podcast, who most likely his team will be editing this very episode and releasing it.
I noticed a pattern and Rich and team, if this feels uncomfortable for me to disclose, please just put that out there. I think he has a very high moral code. he's ex-military and i think what i understand from people in the military is in the world of military life everything works in a very binary way it's right it's wrong you're on time you're late you're neat or you're sloppy there isn't a lot of gray and i think that's beautiful for a lot of people and mil ex-military people then sometimes struggle with the idea that civilian life is anything but black and white.
It's not binary at all. It's like super gray and murky and they have a hard time adjusting to that. And so in the military, you are going to lay your life down for someone and you're not going to leave somebody behind in the battlefield.
And they require that kind of care for each other so that they don't abandon one another. And so your word means a lot in the military because you're honorable or you're dishonorable. It's kind of really black and white.
So in civilian life, people say all kinds of weird things and they change their mind and they're you can get really upset because you're still using that framework or that mindset from the military. And so it's kind of like led into a lot of ways of Rich thinking about things. Like for example, I find that every time I talk to him about a business or a client idea that's new and foreign to him, his first kind of reaction, his default is no, that's not going to work.
That's problematic. And I'll tell you why. And I'm like, okay, that's fine.
and then we get into like fashion which is seeming like so disconnected from business and i say hey show me what you're looking at and so he'll show me a bunch of clothes that look almost just like what he wears but slightly different and he's asking me chris i really need help with learning how to dress i'm like cool but everything i show you say no to and everything that you show me is just 10 degrees different than what you already wear so i start to feel like the disconnect, like you asking me for help. So I kind of have to just ask you to just try. I don't want you to buy it, but just try.
So I tell him, sit in the discomfort for a little bit. And the first word that comes out of your mouth should not be no, it should be, let me see what happens. So we did this weird exercise.
It's almost kind of like really strange. Like we're two junior high kids on a sleepover, although he didn't sleep over here. I would send him to a room and there's a full length mirror.
I said, try these things on. And he's bigger than me. So he's like, how could I possibly fit into any of your clothes, Chris?
I said, well, that'll be my problem. Wouldn't it? Okay.
Again, all that negativity. Let's see where it goes. Okay.
So I would go from my closet over to him, like one piece at a time, because I was looking for things that I'm like, these are oversized, loose cut things that he could possibly wear. Lots of things won't fit. I didn't give him anything that wouldn't fit.
And the simple thing of putting some bracelets on him, some beads or whatever, the first time he put it on, I could tell he looked at it like, "No." I said, "Remember, just give it a try." And so he's able to do that. And then I come back and in between going back and forth from where he was into my bedroom or my closet, he had enough time to sit in the discomfort that he's like, "Oh, this isn't bad. Actually, this is kind of cool." I like this.
So he went from no, no, no, no to like, wow, I'm shocked as heck that I'm even liking this right now, Chris. So from baggy pants with suspenders to loose fitting coats that look like you're a child wearing them, it's just a different cut with drop shoulders. And he just walked away and he sent me this really lovely message.
He goes, Chris, I don't know. I don't know exactly what it was. But I think you opened or unlocked something in my mind this weekend.
And I just wanted to thank you for it. And I'm liking this new frame that I'm looking at the world because I kept telling him, man, I'm not super intelligent, but I can spot a pattern when I see one. And you keep demonstrating the exact same pattern.
You say no before you say yes. I said, flip it around. If someone presents a business idea for you and there are eight dumb ideas, but two good ones, look for the good ones and don't even listen to the bad ones.
Totally OK. but you let the bad ones be so loud that you cannot pick up what's good anymore and you're missing the opportunity and that's going to hold you back for the rest of your life so we can play with business and we play with fashion like you've heard me say this before how you do one thing is how you do everything that's a massive vignette line so it's like if you can open your mind about fashion then you can probably open up your mind about business and possibly even about people And so that's kind of where we netted out on that. That's really cool.
Also, can't wait to see Rich's updated wardrobe. He's going to look like me. When he said, well, first, how am I going to fit your clothes or like I'm bigger or whatever, he said, dude, I cracked up because that was my literal first thought.
Because I had the same first thought when you did the same thing with Trigo. I was like, aren't they like a foot taller than you? You're like stopping.
Wait, hold on, hold on. Let me... - Drigo's not 6'8", all right?
He's 6'4". He's probably actually 6'5". I think he lies.
He's one of the few people who lies down instead of lies up. Drigo's 6'4", I'm 5'8". So that's not quite a foot.
I mean, if he's 6'8", I'm like, yes. It feels like a foot. I give you that.
And there are things that I own that he can try on and he's tried on and he's like, huh, okay. But yes, I do have things that are not all like slim cut, you know, for 29 inch waist. Cause we're, we're built very different.
Even though Rich and I are very similar in height, he's got a much bigger pronounced muscular chest. So those that's not gonna fit. And his waist is a little bit bigger.
He's just got bigger meat on him. Bigger meat. I don't know how else to say that.
Oh dude, this is, this is the unfilteredness bigger meat. Yeah. Um, I'm gonna hold up this picture because this is something that I've been showing my clients this week.
So I think what you described really aligns with this. It's not exactly the same, but there's like a very similar pattern here. Yes.
Right. Like the people who constantly say no, who are looking for the reasons why something won't work instead of why it might work. For me, it's this constant question of my clients in the last, I don't know, three weeks, month, but just in general, like the entire lifetime is a perpetual focus on what they don't want instead of what they do want.
So a lot of people asking me for help around finding their purpose. And when I asked them, okay, so what do they want? You know, what all their answers are is what they don't want.
So then I asked them again and I keep asking them again. And then we reached a point where I'm like, you realize all your answers are like what you don't want. And while that can be helpful to some degree, it's It's not really going to help you laser in on like the thing if you're truly seeking that same energy that I feel motivated by every single day.
And I think all of these are really interconnected, right? The habit of saying no before yes. So maybe that's the exercise, like one of the things that we have the audience give a try, right?
Instead of your perpetual no, your habitual no, instead replace it with yes. Why don't I just give it a try? Because that was one of the lessons my mentor coach, she has this book called Life's Little Lessons, something like that.
Her name is Marion Franklin. And one of the things in there is every day for a month, just say yes to everything. As long as it doesn't harm you, just say yes.
I remember reading that. I was like, oh, that seems a little scary. But I did it.
Yeah. And you're still alive, Joel. I am.
Yeah, a lot of people like to ask something like, why? And just add one extra word. Why not?
Just add the word not. Why not? Hey, you want to go out and try this super spicy uncooked food?
Why not? Hey, you want to listen to this kind of music that's a little weird? Why not?
And just go for it. Now, Jewel, I know you and I can talk literally for hours at a time. But I'm thinking this might be a good time to conclude this very first episode of Unfiltered, one in which if you all let us know in the comments that you want to hear more of these kinds of conversations and let it meander totally unstructured and to kind of see what kinds of things it's our brain.
then let us know comment the word unfiltered and we'll do more episodes like this oh my god but are you actually going to respond no i won't respond or nor remember i'm like i feel like why the hell are they saying that i have no freaking clue but i will end this with a conversation like a quick question for you okay i mean it's the question but i'd like a quick response when we ask ourselves like what is it that we want i'm going to just build on that So I'm going to put you on the spot. I don't want you to overthink this. Don't give me some middle of the fence kind of answer, middle road, straddle, fence straddling answer.
When you have prospects, clients come to you as someone that needs your coaching. What do you want from them? As in what is the ideal student showing up or the ideal client showing up as what do they do?
What do they think? How do they behave? The ideal student looks a lot like me.
They're an immigrant or the child of an immigrant. They feel a strong sense of responsibility of their own life. They know that they own their life and they're ready to do something about it.
They're usually pretty smart. They are frustrated by something going on in their life. For me, when I say it's really like me, like my earlier self, a lot of the time, I think I've spent most of my life just really feeling uncomfortable with myself.
I felt like terrified to put one toe out of line. Because it's like, oh my god, people will judge me and then what? So I wasn't moving up in the corporate world in one of my jobs had no idea why now I look back, I'm like, of course, makes so much sense.
So that's the ideal person for me who's like, they have some idea of where they want to get to, but they don't know what's what's getting in that in their way because they're lacking a lot of people skills so if you're saying don't be middle of the road it's the people who are immigrants lacking people skills and they just want someone to tell them like give them the map and be like i'll break it down i'll break it down i'll tell you what to say and if that person tells you something i'll tell you how to respond Because that's what I wanted. I'm going to take my own question and throw it out there because people do ask me oftentimes, what is it that you look for in someone that you want to mentor or someone that you're going to coach? Okay, I'm in this stage of my life where I need to be mindful of how I spend my time.
Money is good. I'm not going to turn money down, but I don't find it particularly fruitful, fulfilling to take someone's money and to coach them through something. And as we said earlier today, the line I would use is, hey, I endeavor to be the best coach that can be.
So in order for me to best be the best coach, I need you to be the best student. And here's what the best student looks like. And if you can honor that part of the agreement, we're going to do great things together.
I can almost guarantee it. And where this always breaks down, almost always, is you come in it with great intention, You spend the money, but you actually don't commit yourself to doing the work. So in a weird, weird way, I just want somebody who's totally fed up, just like you, Jewel, who's frustrated, who has a ginormous problem that if they can't get fixed, it's going to ruin their personal life, their business life or something else in between.
And to come to me with an open heart and open mind to say, like, I've tried a lot of dumb ways. I'm tired of doing that. I'm ready to do what you say.
And we can move mountains together in a very short amount of time because nothing would make me more excited to pour into someone and see them do that. I mean, I'm electric or electrified or whatever it is. I'm through the roof with energy and adrenaline.
Like I am ready to do the next thing with you because you just kick major butt and all you need was a little piece of information. Maybe it was permission or the words that you need to say. And if you just say it, you're going to do great.
And that's why. People ask me how long I'm gonna do this job for this job of educating this general public I say for as long as the messages keep coming back that because of X I was able to achieve Y I just want more of them to be my my students my mentees my Clients that would give me great joy. The problem is people will ask for advice and not take it so in the world of fashion there are three gentlemen in particular who've been asking me for help and and i'm starting to get really fed up with all three of them i don't want to mention names but i was like why do you keep asking for my help i tell you what you need to do and then you resist resist resist i'm not even getting paid for this jewel so i'm thinking i got better things to do luckily for each and every one of them it just took enough of that kind of resistance for them to have a small breakthrough I'm telling you right now, Jewel, the next person comes to me, I'm like, nope, when I have this conversation, you must commit.
I don't want to hear any lip from you. If I tell you to do this and you don't do it, I'm done. That's the agreement because I don't have time to waste on this.
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Details at lowes.com slash terms. Subject to change. I think I'm going to add something like that to my contract.
Yeah. You should. I have this extra page to my contract, which is not normal.
It says what to expect when working together. And there's like all these things of what you say you're going to do, like you're agreeing to do. And you have to initial each one of them.
And yeah, I think I need something like this, what you're talking about. I don't think it even needs to be an extra page. You can reduce all the other words and just bring it down to this because without this, everything else is moot.
If you want to, search Carlos Segura's letter to clients, the agreement. Right? And you can do some version of that.
And it doesn't have to be that complicated. You have a problem, I have answers. It's something like that.
You pay me and then you do the work or we cannot work together. It doesn't have, yeah, I bet you with a couple of rounds of GPT, it's like, I want you to do the most violent, aggressive version of this agreement and keep it as simple as possible. You'll come up with that agreement really quickly.
And I think, wouldn't that be great? Like if everybody joined the gym membership or if everyone who, whatever it is you committed yourself to, with your word that you actually just follow through. It's been the biggest secret to my success, Joel.
Hire smart people, listen to them and know that you didn't have answers. That's why you hired them and just do whatever they say. Do it to the best of your ability, exactly the way you were instructed.
Don't try to change it. Just do it over and over again. And then when you really tried and you know you tried, try one more freaking time.
And if it still doesn't work out, then try another thing. But what happens is people self-sabotage from the jump. They don't do it exactly the way they're instructed because they think they know better.
And then when it doesn't work out, well, you've manifested it not to work out. If they tell you to make 100 calls and you make 14 and you're like, well, it didn't work in 14 calls. Well, you didn't do the 100 calls.
Or if they say do, I don't know, end the call with this call to action and you change that, You don't really know if it didn't work or it was you who made it not work. And so that's why I think, gosh, I'm just getting too old and too cranky now. If you want to work with me, this is the way it's going to work.
Otherwise, save your time, save your money, save some of my grief, please. Your age is the excuse for crankiness? Yeah.
Yeah. You notice how old people ain't got time for BS? Oh, so you agree you're old.
I am old. I tell people I'm old. And I'm delighted when there are other people on stage that are older than me.
I'm like, God dang it, I'm the young gun up here right now. It's not often I could say that. I mean, I remember looking at my students at Art Center and saying, okay, so I've been running my company since 1995.
And they just gasped. Like literally, it's not even like an imagination. They're like, Like I wasn't even born in 1995.
So I say, so I've been running my business longer than you've been alive. So the smart person in this room would say, well, let's take your experience, condense it down so I can avoid some of the mistakes that you've made so I can get a shortcut to achieving what it is I want. And that's the whole point of education.
We would not go to school if we thought we're only going to recommit all the same mistakes again. Then just save your money, save your time. Just go explore the world yourself and make all the mistakes in the world.
Yep, I agree. Well, thanks for the call, man. This was fun as always.
Thanks, Joel. Let me tease the next episode. Next time, I won't remember any of this, but next time we'll talk about a spiritual walk that I had with my wife and my kids recently in Mount Shasta.
And my wife has been exploring quantum entanglement, quantum particle, quantum physics and alternate realities and timelines and everything. And it's her trip into like mysticism. and sometimes the occult it's been fascinating for me to watch and i want to share some of the things i learned i cannot wait i i love this this side of you with everything jesse's learning and i cannot wait to learn everything about this i love this i'm just gonna give you fragments of what i've overheard so uh of course then we'll see what happens there you know what the answer is you got to bring her on I can try.
She's practicing some things and she's like, let me do a sonic bath, a sound bath for your audience. I'm like, babe, how are they going to feel it? They'll feel it.
So maybe we'll have her off camera and she could do something. She has a hand pan too. She plays quite well, but she's like too self-conscious to play that.
Oh my God. I love this. I love this.
I was thinking of getting one. That's so cool. Yeah, they're pretty cool.
Yeah. So maybe she'll jam for us just off camera. Off the record, we'll see what happens.
Okay, that's it. So this is an unusual and different approach to our content, everybody. So bear with us as we work through this.
But I think sometimes when we're having these conversations, I think real gems come out. And it's a pity that you can't always be there with us to hear what we hear and to kind of learn from each other and this is an attempt to help bring you in in that conversation thanks for sticking out to the very end with us i'm chris doe and i describe myself as a lot of introvert sometimes i'm critically sharp i'm a middle child and a recovering graphic designer this is jewel kim and i love teaching people how to talk to other people without being so freaking awkward Perfect. Sorry.
Awkwardly perfect. Perfectly awkward. I'm demonstrating my own awkwardness.
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