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    Podcast 13 min read

    Selling the Cost of Doing Nothing w/ Charlotte Lloyd

    with Charlotte Lloyd

    Chris Do and Charlotte Lloyd examine how the cost of inaction changes a sales conversation without manufacturing urgency.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · November 4, 2026

    The competitor that never sends a proposal

    A sale can disappear without another seller winning it. Charlotte Lloyd, a B2B sales strategist who describes 23 years in B2B selling and five years running her own business, sees a less visible rival: the buyer's willingness to stay exactly where they are. Her work with founders and B2B teams makes that distinction practical, not theoretical.

    The buyer can understand the offer, acknowledge its potential value, and still decline to change anything. The seller has demonstrated an attractive future. The buyer has not accepted that the present requires intervention.

    That is the gap Lloyd examines with Chris Do. Their conversation moves from a broken garage opener to a sales-training role-play built around underfilled retreats, then into a revealing disagreement about when a seller should stop asking questions.

    The central issue is not how to make a pitch more persuasive. It is how to establish whether a decision deserves to happen at all.

    The cost of inaction must be discovered, not manufactured. Lloyd uses cost of inaction, or COI, to describe the consequences of leaving a problem unresolved. The point is to make those consequences visible alongside the proposed investment, rather than treating the seller's fee as the only cost under consideration.

    Return on investment still matters. Lloyd does not reject it. She rejects the assumption that an appealing return, presented before the buyer's situation is understood, will automatically produce commitment.

    A seller can promise more revenue while missing the reason a buyer remains unmoved. The buyer does not necessarily want the operational changes required to pursue it. Or the problem simply does not rank high enough to justify attention now.

    Those are different situations, and neither becomes clearer through a louder pitch.

    Lloyd's approach starts by separating several judgments that sellers often compress into one:

    • Whether a problem exists.
    • Whether its consequences are substantial enough to address.
    • Whether the buyer wants to address it now.
    • Whether the proposed service fits the work required.

    Acknowledging the first does not settle the others. Someone can recognize an inconvenience and rationally choose to live with it. A founder can want additional revenue without wanting to build a sales process.

    This is where the conversation becomes more demanding than a conventional argument for urgency. Lloyd asks sellers to investigate resistance rather than immediately overcome it. The task is to understand the buyer's position well enough that walking away remains a legitimate outcome.

    That requires a different relationship to the deal. A seller who needs the agreement too badly has an incentive to interpret every answer as progress. Lloyd instead looks for reasons the engagement will fail before money changes hands.

    The discipline is uncomfortable because it challenges the seller's preferred story. Interest is not proof of need. Need is not proof of priority. Priority is not proof that this particular service will solve the problem.

    Her argument becomes credible only when it survives a case where the cost of doing nothing is not especially compelling. Do supplies precisely that case, from his own garage.

    The broken chain and the honest diagnosis

    On his way to the conversation, Do notices that his garage has not fully closed. The chain on the opener broke months earlier. A repair person quoted a price he considered unreasonable, so the repair never happened.

    He can lift the door manually. The inconvenience has not become important enough to pay to remove.

    Lloyd initially interprets the situation as a missed opportunity to explain future damage. The repair person sold the fix, she suggests, without establishing what leaving the problem alone would cost. She turns to a leaking roof as a clearer illustration of deterioration.

    In that hypothetical, a homeowner sees a manageable leak and postpones a repair. A roofer takes the homeowner into the loft, shows the softened timber, and explains the consequences of allowing the damage to continue.

    The numbers Lloyd uses are illustrative: a $2,000 repair now versus a potential $6,000 or $8,000 repair later. They are not estimates for Do's garage, nor evidence that every delayed repair becomes more expensive.

    The distinction matters because Do challenges the transfer. His garage does not automatically contain a credible escalating loss. If the owner is comfortable with the limitation, the repair person has no obligation to close the sale.

    “You can't force somebody to make a decision,” Lloyd agrees.

    This is the ethical boundary of the entire method. A genuine consequence can help someone make a better decision. An invented consequence simply gives pressure a financial vocabulary.

    Lloyd states the boundary more sharply through the roof analogy: “A good roofer shows you the damp joist.” Then the contrast: “A bad one invents one.”

    The roofer's authority comes from evidence. Not the size of the warning. Not the confidence of the presentation. The homeowner can inspect the condition that supports the recommendation.

    For a service business, the equivalent is a problem the client recognizes and a consequence the client accepts. That puts diagnosis ahead of prescription, a related subject in The Futur's Can You Charge To Diagnose?.

    The consultation must leave room for an answer the seller dislikes. The problem is tolerable. The timing is wrong. The expense of changing exceeds the value of fixing it.

    In larger organizations, Lloyd adds, the cost of inaction can differ among decision makers. Agreement that a problem exists does not guarantee agreement about its significance. A seller needs to discover those differences instead of treating the organization as one uniform buyer.

    That does not mean searching endlessly for friction. It means testing whether the proposed urgency belongs to the client or only to the person selling.

    The garage and roof illustrate opposite outcomes of the same discipline. One supports further investigation into accumulating damage. The other supports accepting that the owner has made a reasonable trade-off.

    Both can be successful diagnoses.

    If the only acceptable conclusion is a purchase, the conversation was never truly diagnostic. It was a pitch waiting for enough supporting material to sound consultative.

    Four empty seats change the conversation

    The argument becomes more concrete when Do takes the buyer's role in a sales-training exercise. He supplies an actual business concern: Casa Dojo, a two-day retreat priced at $5,000 per person and capped at ten participants.

    The event runs monthly. People respond to calls to action and complete applications, but not enough of them put down deposits. Interest exists. Payment does not reliably follow.

    Lloyd's initial assumption is that the business has depended on referrals and networking rather than generating its own pipeline. Do corrects her. The business publishes content, runs advertising, and has an email list exceeding 100,000 people.

    That correction is a useful part of the exercise. Discovery has to change the seller's understanding, not merely confirm the opening hypothesis.

    The issue is not an absence of marketing activity. It is the distance between expressed interest and an actual purchase. Lloyd redirects the discussion toward individual sales conversations and the people who have already shown intent.

    Interest is not the same as paid demand. Applications give the business someone to speak with. They do not establish that every applicant will buy, or that filling every available seat is guaranteed.

    Do initially describes an event with four participants. Against a ten-person capacity, that leaves six seats, or $30,000 in potential revenue. He then gives a more useful baseline: twelve participants across the first two events, averaging six per retreat.

    That makes the average gap four seats, or $20,000 per month.

    • A full retreat represents $50,000 in revenue.
    • Six participants represent $30,000 in revenue.
    • Four unfilled seats represent a $20,000 gap against capacity.
    • An unchanged monthly gap would total $240,000 across twelve months.

    The arithmetic gives the discussion scale. It does not prove that a salesperson can recover the entire gap. Nor does it convert potential revenue into lost profit.

    The annual figure is an extrapolation from the scenario, not a forecast supported by a full year of results. That limitation should remain visible even when the number becomes useful in a sales conversation.

    Lloyd asks why fixing the problem matters now. Do's answer is straightforward: the retreats happen every month. Waiting does not postpone a single isolated opportunity. It leaves the same conversion problem in place for the next event.

    Now timing has a business basis. No artificial deadline is required.

    She also asks what success would look like beyond filling the remaining seats. Do wants someone to close the sale so he can concentrate on programming the experience.

    The desired outcome therefore has two parts: revenue and attention. A working sales process would help the event fill while allowing its creator to focus on the work only he needs to do.

    This is the business transition suggested by the title of The Futur's related conversation, Moving from Makers to Entrepreneurs. Here, the operational question is specific: who guides interested applicants from consideration to payment?

    Lloyd is no longer selling sales training as an abstract improvement. She is responding to an identifiable gap in a functioning business.

    The distinction changes the price conversation before a price has even been named. The buyer now has a concrete problem against which to evaluate a proposed intervention.

    The offer becomes smaller, not cheaper

    Lloyd recommends training someone already inside the business before hiring an external salesperson. Her proposed approach begins with people whose contact information the business already has, particularly applicants who did not complete a purchase.

    The purpose is not simply to send more reminders. It is to invite a conversation, understand what prevented the purchase, and create a repeatable way to help suitable buyers decide.

    She also raises the possibility of outreach to people not currently entering through the marketing channels. That is an additional opportunity, not the same problem as converting existing applicants. Keeping those two jobs distinct matters when deciding how much work the engagement should include.

    The proposed price is $3,000 per month for six months, an $18,000 commitment. Against a stated monthly revenue gap of $20,000, Do finds the economics attractive.

    But attractive economics do not settle his concern.

    He asks what assurance Lloyd can provide that the system will work. He has dealt with service providers who promise results and fail to deliver. His hesitation is not evidence that he misunderstands the value of four additional sales.

    He doubts the reliability of the proposed route to them.

    Lloyd initially declines to guarantee an outcome because implementation depends on the person being trained. The team member must be willing and able to do the work. Do proposes an assessment before proceeding, giving Lloyd a chance to judge the person responsible.

    That exchange separates the conditions for success from the promise of success. A training offer cannot be evaluated independently of the trainee's commitment.

    Then Lloyd adjusts the engagement. Rather than insisting on six months, she proposes a shorter period, ultimately reducing the starting commitment to one month.

    Reduce the commitment before reducing the price. The monthly fee remains $3,000. What changes is the amount of uncertainty Do must accept before seeing whether the relationship produces a result.

    The original offer asks him to commit $18,000 before testing the service in his business. The revised offer lets him begin with $3,000 and continue if the result supports doing so.

    This is not a universal instruction to offer trials. It is a response to the objection actually raised in the role-play. Do has accepted the importance of the problem and the proposed economics; he needs a less exposed way to begin.

    The relationship between service and price is also the territory of How To Price YOUR Work. Here, the crucial adjustment concerns commitment, not a cheaper rate.

    After the role-play, Do explains that one additional $5,000 customer would exceed the initial $3,000 fee in revenue. He also values the knowledge the trained employee would retain.

    Lloyd adds a money-back assurance after he has already agreed. Do notices the timing: the shorter commitment had resolved his hesitation before the refund entered the conversation.

    The additional assurance signals confidence, but it was not what earned the initial yes. That distinction prevents a misleading lesson. The deal did not require progressively more generous concessions; it required a response to the buyer's specific fear.

    The cost of waiting made action important. A manageable first commitment made action acceptable.

    A genuine yes should change the conversation

    The role-play contains another friction point that neither participant smooths over. Lloyd repeatedly returns to the $20,000 monthly gap and its consequences. Do says he had already accepted the problem and wanted to hear the offer.

    From his side of the table, the additional questioning begins to feel unnecessary. He is not avoiding the decision. He is trying to reach it.

    Lloyd defends her caution. Years in B2B sales have trained her to look for the refusal beneath enthusiasm. She wants to know whether the buyer truly wants the change, whether the service fits, and whether the conditions for success exist.

    “It's healthy to look for some disagreement,” she says.

    Her concern is recognizable within the conversation. A pleasant exchange can leave important objections untouched. A seller can mistake friendliness for conviction and discover the difference only after sending a proposal.

    Do accepts that risk but disputes the response when commitment is already clear. Once a buyer has given a genuine yes, he argues, the seller should stop selling and move into next steps.

    A request for a proposal is not a purchase decision. On this point, they converge. Do distinguishes a buyer asking to proceed from someone asking for a document as a polite way to end the call.

    The words sound encouraging. The behavior they describe is different.

    • A buyer ready to proceed wants to understand the offer and the next step.
    • A buyer requesting a proposal has not necessarily agreed to purchase.
    • A buyer raising an implementation concern is identifying something the offer must address.
    • A buyer declining directly provides clarity that polite enthusiasm cannot.

    The task is not to rank those responses by how pleasant they feel. It is to respond to the information each one contains.

    Lloyd recommends taking buyers through proposals on a call, or arranging another call to review a tailored proposal together. Sending the document without that conversation can leave the seller interpreting silence afterward.

    The practical issue is not the existence of a PDF. It is whether the proposal follows an understood decision process or substitutes for one.

    Do's objection to excessive discovery introduces a useful limit. Thoroughness can become another kind of failure to listen when the buyer has already supplied the answer. Repeating the stakes does not automatically improve the diagnosis.

    Lloyd's caution introduces the opposite limit. Moving too quickly can leave a seller celebrating a commitment that was never made.

    Both positions demand sensitivity to the person in front of the seller, a subject reflected in The Futur's related conversation on the power of attunement in sales. A fixed sequence of questions cannot settle the tension on its own.

    Their disagreement remains useful precisely because it remains a disagreement. Lloyd prioritizes exposing hidden resistance; Do prioritizes recognizing when resistance has already been resolved.

    The practical distinction is between checking for an unresolved issue and refusing to accept a resolved one. The first protects the engagement. The second risks making the buyer work to convince the seller that the sale is already there.

    Discovery should produce a decision, not become a reason to delay one.

    The promise has to survive delivery

    There is a harder problem beneath all this sales technique. Do argues that many service providers cannot clearly describe the result they are promising, let alone explain how confidently they can produce it.

    In that situation, better discovery only exposes the weakness more precisely. The buyer's need becomes clearer while the seller's ability to meet it remains vague.

    Lloyd agrees that a tangible outcome has to be understood. Even when the desired result includes an emotional benefit, the seller needs clarity about what the service changes and why that change matters to the client.

    In the retreat scenario, the outcome is not simply a trained employee. It is an employee capable of holding conversations that help suitable prospects decide, supporting the business's effort to convert interest into paid attendance.

    The training is the intervention. The business result is the reason to consider it.

    That distinction also explains why Lloyd wants to assess commitment before accepting payment. If the person responsible will not implement the process, the existence of a revenue gap does not make the engagement sound.

    The practical sequence demonstrated in the exchange is less theatrical than a closing script. It is a set of checks that keep the recommendation connected to reality:

    • Establish the buyer's actual problem. Correct the opening assumption when the buyer supplies different information.
    • Use the buyer's own baseline. Separate the latest retreat's attendance from the average across the events described.
    • Test the conditions for delivery. Assess the person who will implement the sales process before treating training as the answer.
    • Address the remaining decision risk. Match the initial commitment to the buyer's concern instead of repeating an already accepted revenue argument.

    These are not substitutes for judgment. They are the work that makes judgment possible. Each check can change the recommendation, narrow the engagement, or end the opportunity.

    Lloyd's insistence on permission to decline belongs here. Buyers should be able to say that the problem is not urgent, the offer is not right, or the proposed change is more than they want to undertake.

    Without that permission, the seller receives politeness instead of usable information. The resulting proposal can look like progress while merely carrying uncertainty into another stage.

    The same standard applies to the seller's promises. A potential $240,000 annual revenue gap does not authorize a $240,000 outcome claim. The scenario establishes the stakes, not proof of recoverability.

    Likewise, one successful month would support continuing the engagement; it would not retrospectively make every forecast certain. The confidence Lloyd expresses has to remain connected to execution, the trainee's participation, and the results actually produced.

    The final challenge is therefore not to find a more dramatic way to describe inaction. It is to establish a consequence worth addressing, propose a credible intervention, and recognize the point at which the buyer has enough information to decide.

    The garage owner can decline. The retreat operator can start with one month. The enthusiastic prospect can reveal a hidden objection. The committed buyer can move forward without another round of persuasion.

    A useful sales process has room for all four outcomes because its purpose is clarity, not inevitability.

    The cost of doing nothing can justify a decision. It cannot justify a promise the seller cannot keep.

    It's healthy to look for some disagreement. It's healthy to not expect the deal to come in, but be optimistic that it will. But if you need it more than they need it, that does not sell. I am Charlotte Lloyd, and you are listening to The Future. Charlotte Lloyd is a seasoned B2B sales strategist who turns conversations into revenue, not just content clicks. In this episode, we dive into how to diagnose the costs of inaction, move beyond ROI alone, and close the decision by making the cost of staying the same emotionally and financially undeniable. So rather than teaching louder pitching techniques or generic ROI claims, she focuses on buyer psychology, helping sellers uncover the real cost of inaction, spot premium buying signals, and guide hesitant prospects toward a confident decision. Charlotte, welcome to the show. Thank you, Chris. I am really stoked to be here. And it's a pleasure. Now, there's something that you refer to as the jolt effect, which is you're not losing business to the competition. You're losing it to something else. What is that thing that we're losing it to? Yeah. The jolt effect is actually a book which came out a couple of years after COVID. And the authors did some research on actual calls where deals were being discussed. And obviously, with revenue intelligence platforms like Gong or Fathom, you know, these kind of call recorders, they could analyze what was happening on calls and where, let's say, they initially did it with sales reps. Were sales reps, they wanted to identify where they were losing deals. Like, what part in the call? Was it something they were saying? Was it something they were not saying? And when they analyzed, I think it was over a thousand different calls, they came back with this observation, based on their research, that most deals were not being lost to the competition. Or are we going to collect their research to make sure people care. She's going to be great! and see what Chloe really does call? Was it something they were saying? Was it something they were not saying? And when they analyzed, I think it was over a thousand different calls, they came back with this observation based on their research that most deals were not being lost to the competition. They were being lost to no decision. The buyer or the buyers, if there were several decision makers, felt safer staying where they are than actually making a change. And this is something that always surprises people, especially people who are entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, running their own businesses, their solo operators. And I see this play out with my own clients. Most of the time, it's not that they decide to go with someone else, the buyer. It's that they would rather do nothing. The status quo is where they would prefer to stay. And they realized after this that actually the reason that the buyers would rather make no decision was because the rep hadn't articulated what the cost of them actually staying the same was costing them. So they would sell perhaps, hey, this is the return on investment you get if you work with us. And that was not enough to move them from the current state, the status quo. So they would choose no decision. I can relate to what you're saying because oftentimes when somebody's pitching me something, I'm like, yeah, I'm all right. So let me give you an example. This morning I was driving out from my garage to go to the office to do this podcast with you. I noticed the garage wasn't fully closed. And I'm like, oh yeah, because the chain on the garage opener broke months ago and I haven't fixed it. And then I had called a repair guy to come and the quote he gave me was ridiculous in my opinion. So I'm like, whatever. If I need to lift it up, I'll manually pull it up right now. I'm just sitting there. It's not bothering me. What could he have done differently understanding the concepts that you're talking about? Yeah, 100%. And the thing is, that, yeah, he sold the repair without selling what the damage would be essentially, right? So the longer you leave that, you know, it's not bothering me. What could he have done differently, understanding the concepts that you're talking about? Yeah, 100%. And the thing is, is that, yeah, he sold the repair without selling what the damage would be, essentially, right? So the longer you leave that, the more it's going to cost. But the thing is, is that so many don't know how to articulate that and ask the right questions that would uncover the cost of inaction. So when you understand that it's actually going to cost you less now than what it would cost you in the future, there's a logical path to that. But it's also the emotional path. I use the roof repair, don't sell the roof repair, sell the damage from the water leakage, if it carries on, because that's going to cost a lot more money. So, you know, you have a leaking roof, and there's water coming into a little bit and you think, oh, I can, I can deal with it. It's not that bad. Maybe I'll patch it up a bit. But yeah, it's expensive to fix it. It might be $2 ,000. Think of it as, yeah, if you leave it, a $2 ,000 fixing your garage now or fixing your roof, we're talking about the leaking roof would become potentially $6 ,000, maybe $8 ,000, right? So that's the cost of inaction. The let me think about it comes and it's like, you're thinking, I'll do it in the spring. I'll leave it another few months. That's when it's going to cost the $6 ,000 or $8 ,000. The questions is that roofer who wants to fix your roof is walking you into the loft with a torch and basically he's showing you okay, if you come into the roof, feel this, it's soft. The leak is here. And if you don't fix it, this is what's going to happen. So you're realizing what could happen in the future if you don't do this, if you don't get it fixed now. And the close is, yeah, we've agreed that the timber's soft. Do you want to sort it now at $2 ,000 or would you rather do it at $8 ,000 in a few months? Because that's what's going to happen. A good roofer shows you the damp joist, a bad one invents one. don't get it fixed now. And the closes, yeah, we've agreed that the timber's soft. Do you want to sort it now at $2 ,000 or would you rather do it at $8 ,000 in a few months? Because that's what's going to happen. A good roofer shows you the damp joist. A bad one invents one. Well, now I want to do this because you talk about ROI and then you said there's something about COI, which is an important phrase we all need to learn, which is the cost of inaction. In the instance of the garage repair person, I would just suggest to people, you can't really sell the cost of inaction there because there's really nothing. If they don't use it, just walk away. And you do talk about this too, to kind of say, you know what? You don't have to sell. You don't have to close the deal. And this might have been one of those ones where you don't need to close. Exactly. And that's really important because you have to be able to really understand your buyer and where they are. Is this cost of inaction? Is this where they are now with the broken chain in the garage? Is it where they might want to stay there? They might not want to do anything. Clearly. You can't force somebody to make a decision. You have to get them to realize themselves that is the cost of change greater than the pain of staying the same? Is the pain big enough to solve? Then yes. And if you're selling to one person, you've got to realize that if you're selling to smaller businesses or medium -sized businesses or even bigger businesses, the cost of inaction will be different for the different people who are in that organization. You're looking for an agreed consensus, but you're also looking for what I say, disagreement in that. Do we agree that this is a problem? Do we agree that the cost of this problem is so big that if we stay where we are, it's going to get bigger and bigger? Or is it just that it isn't that big? It's not a priority to solve right now. So we're going to stay the same. And the more that you can identify this and call it out, ideally before you get on a call, you want to be able to spot if there is a big enough problem to solve. The better it is, the more trust that you build. I want to see this COI in action in something that is a lane that you know we can role play. call it out. Ideally, before you get on a call, you want to be able to spot if there is a big enough problem to solve. The better it is, the more trust that you build. I want to see this COI in action in something that is a lane that you know we can role play and it's going to work out just fine. What should we try? I sell to founders. I also sell to B2B teams. Mm -hmm. Uncovering the cost of inaction with either, let's say, a founder who has want to obviously make more money in their business and right now their stock. So let me be an SMB and I sell what I sell today, coaching, products, whatever, retreats, workshops, okay? Yeah. And you're going to sell me sales training? Yeah. But first of all, I need to assess whether you're a right fit or not. Okay. Ring, ring. Hi, Charlotte. Hi, Chris. Good to have you on the call. Thanks for, you've provided me a little bit of context in where you are with the business. I know that you've got a lot of business from referral, from networking, from word of mouth. It sounds to me like you've never self -generated leads or pipeline and closed deals, or I could be wrong. No, actually we do. We're pretty active on social media. We do a lot of content marketing. There's CTAs. There's an email list of over 100 ,000 people. And we do run ads too. Okay. So it sounds like those sales are working and they are what I would define as more marketing techniques, which is great. You've got a newsletter list, you've got ads, deals are coming in. Are you or your team actually getting into conversations, maybe on LinkedIn or email, where you're identifying those leads before they come to you? And is that something that, because obviously what you're doing now is working and you're happy with it. No, we're not happy with it. When you say that you're not happy with it, where do you feel that the gap is in that all of your leads now are coming from marketing? They're coming to you rather than you going to them. So it sounds like there's a missing piece here, which is you haven't really done the sales outreach part. There is. I'll give you a real example right now. So we do a two -day retreat. All of your leads now are coming from marketing. They're coming to you rather than you going to them. So it sounds like there's a missing piece here, which is you haven't really done the sales outreach part. There is. I'll give you a real example right now. So we do a two -day retreat. It's 5 ,000 bucks. We call it Casa Dojo. People come here and we try and help them. We do these once a month. So there's high interest or intent from people. So I do a CTA. They respond. They fill out the applications, but then they don't put down a deposit. They're not paying. Definitely, there's way more people have expressed interest than the people have paid to be a part of the event. Do you know what that gap is costing you, if you could put a number on it? Yeah, I can tell you right now. So we cap the event in 10 people. It's $5 ,000 a person. So the total revenue from this would be 50K. And it's important for our business to have this firing on all cylinders. So say the last one, we had a small number of people show up. It was four. So that potentially we're leaving 30K on the table. Why does this matter to you to fix right now, rather than say in the next three or six months? It matters because we're running the retreats every single month. When you look at the next three months, and then we can say six and 12 months, what do you feel that that is costing you? If it's 30K each month, tell me what that's costing you in those different timeframes. Yeah, I say like between the first month and the second month, we had 12 people. So like our average would be six people. So you can multiply that. If we're leaving four people, that would be $20 ,000 on average. So every month we don't hit our goal, we are potentially leaving 20K on the table. Okay, so it's 20K multiplied by 12 is 240 ,000. From what you're saying, there's $240 ,000 worth of revenue that you're missing because there's an issue with them not signing up when they're sent the emails and something is dropping off. Have you tried to fix that? We don't know how to fix it. We believe we need to insert a salesperson so they can talk to somebody to guide them through the process. They need a little help. And I believe you do say. there's an issue with them not signing up when they're sent the emails and something is dropping off. Have you tried to fix that? We don't know how to fix it. We believe we need to insert a salesperson so they can talk to somebody to guide them through the process. They need a little help. And I believe you do sales training, right? Yes, correct. That's why we're reaching out. You're missing out potentially on 20K a month. And this has been going on for approximately how long? Two months. Two months. Okay. So that's 40K. We're just in our third month now. Do you accept that the longer you carry on like this, the more costly it's going to become? Yeah. I'm losing money every single month. Okay. So 20 ,000 a month is your cost of inaction. Every month that you wait, that adds up to 240 ,000 a year. You accept that? Yes. I'm ready to take action. When you look at installing a sales process, what would you want to see happen? Obviously you want to be able to get those four people turning up. So you're getting back that 20K that you're not making from your marketing. But what else does success look like when you have the right sales system in place? Close the sale. So I can worry about programming for the event. You can fix this now. Do you want to hear how we can work together? Absolutely. I've been waiting for you to say this. Here's what I recommend that needs to happen. First of all, before you outsource to an actual salesperson and bring somebody in external, what I see work better is training one of your team to be able to do this because obviously hiring somebody else, it's going to cost you three times more each month. And what we need to do is ensure that your team are, or a member of your team can do this and they're willing to put in the work and learn the techniques that are going to be able to close those deals. So we're not looking at taking a volume approach here. We're looking about having conversations with, first of all, the people who haven't signed up. Nobody's reached out to them, I guess, and asked them why, or tried to get them on. willing to put in the work and learn the techniques that are going to be able to close those deals. So we're not looking at taking a volume approach here. We're looking about having conversations with, first of all, the people who haven't signed up. Nobody's reached out to them, I guess, and ask them why, or try to get them onto a call to close them. Yes, I'm on board. Here's what I recommend. It's the process that we would take is building a system that will work, that will, first of all, approach those people who we have the information, we have their email, we need to outreach to them to invite them to a call. And then we build a process to identify potential leads that are perhaps not coming onto your radar via the marketing funnels, where there's probably, let's say, other revenue sitting there that you're not reaching because you don't have an outreach system. And nobody in your team is, you're doing one -to -many marketing, but not one -to -one conversations. I don't recommend that you go out and spend $30 ,000 on putting in a sales system. This is going to be, to fix this, $3 ,000 a month. And this is going to be over six months. So investment of $18 ,000? Yeah. $3 ,000 to make $20 ,000 is no problem for me. Let me just ask you, what levels of certainty or guarantees can you make that if we implement the system that we'll be closing that? I have no problems to spend $3 ,000 to make $20 ,000. I don't offer guarantees because I have to know that the team are going to do it and that they're willing to do it. It won't work if that's not there in place. Right. So would it make sense for me to put you in touch with a person who's going to be trained to do this, to ascertain if they're the right person, if they can be committed before we proceed? Correct. Okay. So if you talk to them and they're committed, you in your assessment think that they can do this, what kind of assurance can you provide to me? Because we've been down this road before with lots of service providers who tell us it's going to happen and then they can't deliver and it's just frustrating as a business owner. Yeah. So this is what we can do. Let's de -risk this because my concern is that you're going to throw money at this and you're like, when's the result coming? Instead, of this... Because we've been down this road before with lots of service providers who tell us it's going to happen and then they can't deliver and it's just frustrating as a business owner. Yeah. So this is what we can do. Let's de -risk this because my concern is that you're going to throw money at this and you're like, when's the result coming? Instead of six months, let's work together for 12 weeks or even let's style this back to a month. I come into the business, have a look at what I feel, well, you've told me what's not being done. You pay the first month. If we get a result, then it's a natural, okay, let's keep this going. Let's work together further. Yeah, 100%. I appreciate you meeting me there. I feel much better. And I think you should talk to my person if you feel good or you want to make recommendations. Otherwise, I'm good to proceed. Fantastic. And if the worst came to the worst and you didn't get a result, I'd refund you your money. Even better. You got yourself a deal. And scene. Why at the end did you offer the money back guarantee? I already agreed to go for it. Yeah. I think it was just like, well, if you don't do this, I'll give you a money back guarantee. But also, I'm so confident that it worked. Yes. People need to know this. What I want to pinpoint for everybody, let's just pull it back. Zoom 30 ,000 feet and we're going to look at the planet and be like, oh, I see all the ants now. I get it. Okay. When you made the concession to reduce and de -risk the engagement from six months to one month, I felt like I can throw 3K at this and I'm not worried. And I don't even need you to get me four or five or six new customers. One new customer would pay for the thing. And then that person can apply that knowledge moving forward. So when you met me there, I was like, I'm good to go. And then you threw in the, and if it don't work, I'll give you money. I'm like, oh my God, she really believes in what she's doing. And I have to say this. If you're a sales trainer and you approve the person that you're going to train, if you can't help to close one deal for 5K, you're not a sales trainer. I don't know what you're doing. Let's just put it like that. Unfortunately, for a lot of people who listen to the pod here, they're not confident they can get a result. In fact, they rarely ever talk about results. So that's usually where the problem begins. So everybody, I want you to think about this. Number one, what results are you promising? 5k you're not a sales trainer i know what you're doing let's just put it like that unfortunately for a lot of people who listen to the pod here they're not confident they can get a result in fact they rarely ever talk about results so that's usually where the problem begins so everybody i want you to think about this number one what results are you promising number two how confident are you at achieving said result if you're not just work on those two things you don't have a sales problem you have a delivery problem right now yes so many people when they come to work with me sometimes i'm not clear on the tangible outcome depends where they are in the business there's a tangible outcome with everything even if it's emotional it's usually tied to money or revenue or something financial emotional you have to be very clear on what your service does and the results that it gets you've got to be asking the right questions being a doctor to really understand what is going on before you prescribe what might work you told me that you had really frustrating time why do you feel that didn't work like what happened you need to know what the roi of your service is i'm not saying that you don't sell with the roi but you can't lead with that and expect to get a result you almost have to look for trouble like where do you think i'm thinking oh chris is saying he's losing like four clients a month not coming to the retreat and it's 20k right okay but does he really want that money because he could carry on doing his marketing so i'm almost disbelieving you and thinking well he's saying this but somehow maybe there's something else that's true maybe doesn't nobody wants to really invest in a lot of i say to myself and i have this people would rather get clients for their business via marketing by personal branding because it's easier in a lot of ways right it's more unpredictable it's easier so i almost disbelieve that people want to have a sales system and understand how that works and implement it so i think i'm just so conditioned to look for trouble and look for the reasons that you would say no before i go hey chris i can make you 20k a month with my techniques and you're going to spend 5k a month for three months or six months or whatever but you're going to make 240k a year now i could have dived in and hit you with my pitch then i just didn't want to because it wouldn't have it would have landed really badly you spent a god -awful amount of time reiterating this 20k a month and i'm telling you right now i was ready to proceed to like what's the option whatever, but you're going to make 240K a year. Now I could have dived in and hit you with my pitch then. And I just didn't want to, because it wouldn't have, it would have landed really badly. You spent a God awful amount of time reiterating this 20K a month. And I'm telling you right now, I was ready to proceed to like, what's the offer? What's the deal? I'm ready to go. But you, maybe you were, I'll let you explain because I don't know why. You spent a lot of time reiterating the same thing, 20K, six months, 120K. I get it. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to go. How come? It's healthy to look for what I say, disagreement, or I said, look for trouble, like really understand. Is this something that it's almost frustrating, right? Because you are pushing me to give my offer, but I'm like, Chris has to really earn the right to hear it. And I have to really understand that this is something that he really, really wants to do. So I want to identify, is it the higher end of my service that you need, or is it the lower end or the medium or the lower end, right? So I'm asking those questions. I asked you about other leads. Did you want anyone else to come to your retreat? And you were saying, no, I just want to keep it like intimate and the people know each other. I would rather people, if they're closing a 5K deal, if they're closing it, and if they're closing a 20, 30K deal, you're going to have to have another call probably and present the proposal to other people, depending on what it is that you sell. And the thing is, is 45 minutes with a buffer for 60 minutes is enough to do a really good call where you can get a close on the call or yes in principle. And that's it. Anything longer than that. And it's too much. My business coach taught me this before. What is the point of a sales call? It's to get them to say yes. So once they say yes, and it's a real yes, not a fake yes. Then anything after that is going past the sale. So how do you resolve this part where I'm like, yes, yes. And at some point I'm like, girl, if you don't tell me the deal, I'm kind of done. I'm cooked. Yeah. You need to be able to look for the cues. But when someone is always enthusiastic and saying, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. In my head, I'm going, wait a minute. They're getting really excited. Surely there's a no. 23 years in B2B selling and like, you know, I'm five years doing my own business now. I am taught to look for the no. I'm taught to look for it not to happen because that is always enthusiastic and saying, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. In my head, I'm going, wait a minute, they're getting really excited. Surely there's a no. 23 years in B2B selling and I'm five years doing my own business now. I am taught to look for the no. I'm taught to look for it not to happen because that allows me to do a better discovery and ask better questions and really understand what does this person want to achieve? I'm only going to take their money if I feel that, okay, this is the thing that they really want to do. And this is enough pain. There's enough cost of inaction. There's a tangible kind of ROI that they want and success outcome. So yeah, I'd rather be more annoying in some ways to build trust. I know the kind of team or person that will get success as well. So I want to make sure that that will happen. And I'd rather do that in a slightly, I'm not going to do it in 30 minutes. It might take 60 minutes, but ultimately it's, we're doing this or we're not doing it. And that's the end of the call. Okay. Well, you've given me something to think about because I haven't recommended people spend any more time than necessary. Once they get a firm, real positive, yes, stop talking, stop selling, move into the, what next steps look like. So you're giving me a lot to think about. Now I imagine if you're doing B2B sales and it's like large teams and procurement and a lot of decision makers, everything you're saying applies. But when you're talking about a small mom and pops, like, Oh, how much for a logo? 30K. When do we start? Here's the money. You're like, well, let me make sure you're fully committed to this. It's like, I don't recommend people do this. So I need to go back in my cave and think about why Charlotte, who's a sales training expert is recommending this. I'm gonna have to like sit on this and pontificate. You've got to be healthy about this, right? It's, it's healthy to look for some disagreement. It's healthy. Do not expect the deal to come in, but be optimistic that it will. But if you need it more than they need it, that does not sell. I understand. I'm a hundred percent for that. So I want to make a point of clarification because I do have to wrap this conversation with you is there is a difference between a buyer who's, I want to move forward. Please tell me. And my feelings as of today, maybe it will change over time is please don't continue selling. There is a difference between that and a person's like, yeah, go ahead and send me the proposal. because I do have to wrap this conversation with you, is there's a difference between a buyer who's, I want to move forward, please tell me. And my feelings as of today, maybe it will change over time, is please don't continue selling. There's a difference between that and a person's like, yeah, go ahead and send me the proposal. There's a big difference there because that's like, I want to get off this call, send me the proposal, and you'll never hear from me again, and you're going to get ghosted. And then that's where I think when you're looking for trouble, looking for the no, because you're getting dismissed. What sellers do is they get really happy when they're like, oh my God, proposal time, let's party. You know, and then they realize, my God, my close rate is terrible. That's the problem. Chris, one of the biggest things that people come to me when they're selling their services, you know, they're a small business. Oh my God, I sent the proposal and I got ghosted. I'm like, did you actually take them through it on the call? Or did you set up another call to tailor it and take them through it? No. Well, you believed what they said because people do not like to tell us the truth. They want to let us down gently. They don't want to say no to our face because it's rejection. Nobody wants to be rejected. So we need to give them permission to say what they are really feeling and to find out what they're really feeling. We need to get to the truth because when we get to the truth, we know if we have a deal or we don't have a deal. Simple as that. We need to give them permission to say no. And a lot of people won't ask those questions because they don't want to hear the answer. Okay. My guest today has been Charlotte Lloyd. She has done a lot of B2B sales training. She's a sales strategist. And I first want to, A, thank you for being here and being such a good sport and role playing with me in these weird scenarios and sharing with us a little sample of what you do. For people who are interested in diving deeper into the kinds of things that you do, where do we send them? to LinkedIn. So that's my primary channel. Charlotte Lloyd sales is my handle. So linkedin .com, Charlotte Lloyd sales. I am on Instagram. Charlotte Lloyd sales is my handle on Instagram as well. And I have a newsletter, the charlotteloyd .com forward slash newsletter. Those are three places. There we go. I'm sure if you hunt her down on LinkedIn, eventually all roads will lead to something. So let's make sure people go to LinkedIn. You can check her out. She's Charlotte. my handle on Instagram as well. And I have a newsletter, the charlotteloyd .com forward slash newsletter. Those are three places. There we go. I'm sure if you hunt her down on LinkedIn, eventually all roads will lead to something. So let's make sure people go to LinkedIn. You can check her out. She's Charlotte Lloyd. And I think that's it. I think we have to wrap up. Fantastic.
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    “You don't have a sales problem you have a delivery problem right now.”

    — Chris Do

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    SALES

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