Overcoming Guilt Of Charging For Thinking

I have a question.Yes so wouldn't this bepart of the process anyway?Like if someone hires youto do like social mediaor their website, wouldn'tyou look at their competitors?It's just like you're givingit to them and charging it.So why don't you do this anyway?Yes OK, this isvery interesting.Ooh, it's Katie, right?Yeah all right.Katie, I like this.OK so Katie is saying, you haveto do this part of your processanyways.So why would youcharge them for it?Is that what you're asking?Well, yeah, because Ido this with my clients,I don't make it like, I don'tmake like tables out of it,but I go through andit's a conversation.And so it's more.Like casual, but I mean,this is stuff like,oh, it's just literally likelaid out what I do that anyway.So if I can charge forthat, that's great.But if I don't, Istill have to do it.So, yeah, I'm interestedin what your thoughts are.This is super fantastic.Thank you for askingthis question.I want somebodyfrom our communityto respond like, whatdo you guys think?And however you want to respond.Just remember, we're acommunity of learning,and we want toencourage everyoneto ask any kindof questions, so Iwant to hear a couple ofdifferent thoughts on this.Do you guys feel the same way?Do you feel differently?Do you have aresponse for katie?And then I want to respond.Who's up?Come on.I can give it a shot.Give it a shot, Travis.So my response to that wouldbe that if you are correct,you're doing a lotof the work already.So the goal is just to find away to present it and sell thatseparately.If you're alreadydoing the work.I wasn't sure your position.Are you in agreement with Katieor are you like, hey, here'sa different way ofthinking about it, Katie.When I was recently saying that,I agree that you're alreadydoing the work, Ithink that the keyis being able to justsell that work if youpresent to the client as likethis is something independent.And that's just anotherrevenue opportunity.All right.Let's let's pause on that.So, Katie, I want you tobring yourself online.It's like, what'sgoing on katie?You're not going tohave a conversation, ok?And yeah, I cantotally hear you.So just perfect.OK there's a lotof things that youhave to do, right in order toproduce something for a client.When do you decidethis is billableand this is non billable?Well I'm kind of just learningthat now, because I just, Yeah.Well, tell me howyou've done it.Well, it's justpart of my strategyand I just don't go indepth like as I do before.But it's also kind of stuffthat I either know alreadynot like specificnumbers or anything,but like for an example.And then I'll bringit up in conversation.And then if they, dependingon how they react,I'll kind of eitherpush that moreor use that as a reference, andI talk about their competitorsanyway and what they likeand what they don't like.So they kind of alreadygive me this information.And then I just kindof reference it.But then also,I'm wondering if Ido offer this as a quoteunquote separate service.How much wouldthat be worth like?I don't charge like 80 or90 thousand, obviously for.So like, what percentagewould that be?Whatever yeah, that'sentirely up to you.So the question?Let me see if I can get a reallyjust clear answer from you.Ok?the question Iheard from you wasthis, which is if I haveto do this anyways as partof my process, whyshould I charge for it?OK, that's the first question.So I just want to addressthat one first, which is I'mjust curious morethan anything else,when do you decide somethingis billable and not billable?So if you go to a clientlike you drive to see them,is that billable?If you having a meetingabout the projector giving or getting feedbackfrom them, is that billable?Is the research thatyou do billable?It's a sketch billable, right?I don't know, becauseI'm learning all of this.I just want to hear from you.So, OK, let's just pretendto just use me to scare me.Ok?and there's nobodylistening, and this is notarchived for a futurepeople to listen to.OK, let's just be realhonest, vulnerableand real with each other for aminute, because through that,I think I can help.OK, so don't worry aboutlooking bad or saying thingsthat you think might beincorrect or correct.It doesn't matter.Right?OK, so tell me how youdetermine what part is billable.Currently in your mind.Also, I have differentpackages, whichwhat I call like, for example,the brand foundation, whichwould basically, I think, isthe core pretty essential.And so as I keep doingthis for my clients,I'm learning, oh, actually,this is helpful, this helpful.So I keep adding to it.But now I'm in aposition where I'mgoing to increase my pricesbecause it's I'm providing moreand it's actually helping them.But like my time ismore valuable than whatI charge for.So I need to increasemy prices because stufflike this is what I added.Does that make sense?It makes perfect sense, butyou didn't answer my question.OK, I'm going to askthe judge to treat youlike a hostile witnessin a second here.You don't answer my question.OK OK.It's like you giveme every answer.But the answer tomy question, whichis how do you currentlydetermine what is billableand what's not billable?OK, some part of this isabout fairness, right?Your sense of fairness.It's like, whoa,I have to do that.That's not really somethingthat I should charge them for.So I probably based itoff of like deliverables.OK, this is the answer.I thought you were going to say.OK, so you're sayingthat unless it'sdirectly connected tosomething that I make,I feel like maybe Ishouldn't charge for it.Yeah, fair.OK Yeah.OK, so let's do this,everybody that feels that way.Type in the chat window.Me too.Let me see how manypeople feel that way, too.And then this will be likea group coaching session.And not just for Katie.Come on, guys.Be honest with me.Come on.OK, one person, here comessome things like not anymore,but OK, a lot of me.OK I used to.OK, now I'm going to say thisin the most empathetic tonethat I can.I feel the same way as you.I really do.And I've done it forthat in that way,for a really long time,and then I realize, my god,there are so many things I couldcharge money for that I hadn'teven considered.And now I'm leavingmoney on the table.So let's look at this.Now, you may determine whenyou're putting togetheran estimate for a clientthat the thing that you makeis what you charge forand how you determine thatmaybe a complex mix oftime and materials, right?So my time is worth xnumber of dollars an hour.And these are the thingsthat I've consumed.For example, ifyou're in packaging,you might have to do lotsof printouts and mock UPSand it's going to useyour inkjet toner and allthat kind of stuff, right?Cartridges, not toner.And so that's howyou build your bid.But really early on, I learnedthat the software that you'reusing the machine,what I need a computerto use to do the work well whenyou have to buy a new computer.Who's paying for that?So that's cost ofdoing business.So you can say thata reasonable rateto rent a computer whileyou're working for this clientis, I don't know, $125 a week.So you just do a prorated thing.And you charge for that andyou have the Creative Cloudlicense, probably, and that'ssomewhere between $30 to $50a month for you, and thenyou have these typefacesthat you invest in.So you're using a lotof things that youneed in order to do the work,but nobody is paying for that.So that means that you'repaying for all of that.So mechanic or arestaurant factors.All these things into thecost of the end product.Because they know there'sa lifetime to how longthe computer's going to last.Right so you all should buildinto this, into your mindset.Your computer is onlygood for about two years.So that means that whenyou're working for a client,you should be charging someportion of that, if not more,that you can easily replaceyour computer every two yearswith the latest and greatest.I actually do this withall the equipment I chop upall the expensivecomputer software,cameras, lenses, micsall this and I chop itup into a two year almost planand I divide it up monthlyand I included an hourly rate.OK, that's fantastic.So I'm going to giveyou some advice.I forgot how you say yourreal name, but mousy.I'm going to giveyou some advice.That's just a theory,and that's excellent.Here's what I woulddo, though I would justlook up what the goingrate to rent a computer is.It's going to be much higherthan you just chopping it upinto a two yearreplacement plan.Start operating like that.I figured this thing outthrough the help of a producer.The first year of mybusiness, and from that pointforward, I never looked back.I started to charge likethat for everything.Like, if I had towork long hours,I would charge themfor the food I ate.I just put in theirworking meals.I charge for every littlething that was necessary for meto create the desk.Everything, all of it justas if you had to rent it.So if you imagine yourselfin a room with no tools,no internet connection,nothing and youhad to rent everythingfor this specific job.How much would that cost?And that's how you shouldstart to impact the bid.So let's transfer thatsame thinking into our timebefore I move onto the time part.Does everybody understand interms of the physical thingsthat you need toactually make your work?Does anybody want to debate thator talk about it a little bitmore.So that they canfeel good about this?Hey, Chris.Yes I just had one question.When you do includethis, are you gettingare you actuallyexplaining what you'recharging for to theclient or are you like?How do you wheredoes it live in now?OK, I'm going to turnthis over to rags.There are several,several business boot camppeople who had theentire thing laid out,and they can seeeverything that we've done,and it's super clear.So I'll let one of them answer.Any boot cameras cananswer this question.Rags, is he still here?OK maybe nobodywants to answer now,they're asking ifthey can answer.I'll give you two moreseconds to answer.OK, I'm going to give it toyou in a quick nutshell, ok?There are three ways that youguys can build an estimate,and I think I've talkedabout this before.The first way is to priceinputs your time and materialsand you sell that.The second way is to priceoutputs basically in order.So you're looking at whateverthe deliverable is, the enddeliverable andyou're going to talkabout it like it's a 12 pagebrochure for color photography.This much copyrighting and thenyou build a bid based on that.Now you can show abreakdown of the bid,and this is the way we usedto do things years ago.This is how we used to do it.We have a line itemfor everything,so our estimate was somethinglike five pages long.It's a complicatedExcel spreadsheet.OK people in the business bootcamp got that spreadsheet.So that they were able toput all those things in.So we show workstationworking meals, software.Assistant editor load in,load out time archiving,media storage and itwould just everythingthat you can imagine underthe sun was in our bid form.It was there in plainsight for them to see.Then we would also showthat we marked it up.For profit, like 20 percent,30 percent, sometimes 40%And they can see that.So real businesses,this is how they work.They understand that youcan't just do this at cost,you actually haveto make a profit.And this is reasonable.You guys ever get a bill fromyour mechanic, your auto repairshop.That thing is not simple.Every little part in peace andlabor is just put in there.Because for accountingpurposes, theyneed to do that, butalso it's to makeyou feel like you havefull transparency on whatyou paid for.Right?look at your phone, bill.Look at your internetor direct TV, bill,it's all in their taxesordinance, set up rental feethis and that, and youhave the premium plan,the plus plan andjust it's broken downin a way that makesit so confusingthat nobody can figure it out.That's the old waythat we used to do it.The new way that we priceoutputs is we just tell you,this is the price.And we just use reallyaround numbers now.Because we don't want toallow the client to figure outthat there's a pricing formula.Because when the clientcan see a pricing formula,they can debate with you.Chris, so sorry.Just a question.Do they not question you whenthey don't see the breakdown?They used to.This is a fantasticquestion, so now we'rediving into all kindsof crazy territory.I used to have argumentswith my producerswhen I told them it is ourjob to obfuscate the bid.We do not want to show themanymore how we do any of thisbecause I don't want to defeatthe cost consultants, right?The clients that we workwith, the big agencies,they have cost consultantswho go through your bitand tear it apart andpull all this thing out.So you can startwith $170,000 budgetby the time they're done at 132.So we started to think, whyshould we tell them exactlyhow we're going to do this?What do they knowabout how we'regoing to approachthis job, so somebodyand I try not to beoverly offensive here,some bean counters on theother side looking at it.We don't need this.We don't need that.It's like, what do they careif we can deliver on the jobor not?So when we'reactually doing the joband we have 40,000 less todo it and we're stressed outof our mind becausewe're not making moneyor we won't bring in that 3Dmodeler or that compositingartist, what suffers thework suffers and we suffer.And we also know that everybodycompeting for this job,usually there's more than three.They're going to approach theproblem completely differentlythan us.So even though we say we'regoing to have four design days,they might say theyhave 16 design days,we might have 80 animator days.And they're going to have 4and it's all over the place.What's the point of that anyway?So what we did waswe erase all of that.We just write very clearlywhat the deliverablesare going to be.The number ofrevisions they can haveand all that kind of stuff,the terms and conditions,basically.Then we put a price.We might break the price upinto two or three phases,but they cannot figure outanything about how we generatedthat number.So they may havemany questions, whichis if you want us to doit, that's the price.If they don't, that's fine.Role to answer your question.Yeah, I think it'sjust sometimeswhen you're involvedin a projectand other things comeup and you start,you don't include that in theproject because its scope,scope creep, Yes.At that point, it's like,oh, but shouldn't thisbe part of this?Or they just startquestioning everything?And then when yousay, OK, this isbuild at consulting'sgold at $200 an hour, oh,how about that?I'm going to giveyou some advice.So when we builda bid that doesn'tallow them to see how thenumbers were generated,that is not to say that thescope was not clearly defined.The scope was veryclearly definedbecause that's your onlysaving grace at this point.You will get a, like Isaid, 16 page brochurewith this many colorimages and whatever,whatever it is that you're goingto describe in the languageyou use.You spend all your time scopingand describing the projectas clearly as possible and theterms and conditions, right?I did say that.So people automaticallyassume because theydon't show the breakdownof how we got there.That that doesn't mean thatwe don't have clear scopedefinition.What we don't wantto show them ishow many hours we put into it.The counterargument thatI give to them is thisand I've neverhad to argue this,so this is kind oftheoretical at this point.Is it there?Well, Chris, wewant to see how manyanimated days thatyou put in there.My response would be, whydo you want to see that?Well, we want to make surethere's enough or anything.So let's say let meask you this question.If I show you all thedays in which peoplework on it, if wego over those days,can we charge youmore for the project?Like, no, you cannot.It's a fixed bid.I said, exactly.So what we're saying toyou is given a scope.If you don't changeanything, it'son us to produce the workto your satisfaction.Right and we can'tchange the price.So why do you need to see that?The only reason whyit would show youa breakdown and actuals, whichis the amount of time peopleput into it.So that you can doyour accounting,is if we can do avariable cost plus bid.A cost plus bid means whateverit costs us, plus a markup.And they don't want to dothat because there's too muchuncertainty and risk involved.So they change things or theproject takes longer thananybody anticipated, they'regoing to get a much bigger billand they can't do that becausethey cannot reasonably go backto their client and say, well,we came at 100 and thirty,but now we finished the project.130 seven, you oweus 67,000 more.That's one way to burn arelationship with their client,so they're not goingto want to do that.So having very clearscope, so here'sthe thing that my team wasn'tdoing, what they were doingis we're spending a lot of timecalculating theoretical numbersof hours that peopleare going to putinto it with noclear idea, actually,because the storyboards weren'teven approved at that point.So what are they basing it on?Even nobody even knows.And they weren'tspending enough timewriting this scope definition.So they're actuallydoing a disservice.They're creating a documentthat the clients can easilyargue and tear apartwhile not puttingenough time into the thingthat mattered the most, whichis the scope definition.What is it that we're doing?So you see there,because that was unclear.That's where the clients willrip you apart and say, look,you never said you weren'tor we're going to do it,so we assume youwere going to do it.And now you're onthe hook to do it.So now go ahead.So now when youdefine the scope,let's just say you're sayingthere's strategy and discovery,are you writingdown with discovery?Oh, you're going to havea one day eight hourdiscovery withinthis, you're goingto get a 16 pageaudit of all this.That or is it justsaying, hey, discovery?No, there's a definition ofwhat discovery looks like.We say it's between 8 to10 hours on site, right?Travel expensesare not included.It's for us todefine your brand.Your users were going tobuild you three user profiles,and we're going to do.We're going to help youprioritize your goalsand write a summary documentwith any actual insights.I don't tell themhow many pages.I don't them it's a PDF.That's it.He's yeah, and just inregards to the questionbefore it's I've just stoppedtaking on clients that don'tvalue time and design, so ifthey're not, like you said,if they're not comfortablewith just a clear definedscope and just one fixedprice, then I just say,hey, we're not the right fit.So I've just stoppeddoing that in generalbecause it's just too much ofa nuance to start explainingand start having tojustify what you're worth.Yeah, I mean, let me justsay a couple of things.Ben burns put together abid for over six figuresto design a logo.Now you you areimagining in your minda conversation thatnever happened,where the client actuallysays, how did youcome up with this number?How many hours isit going to take youto make 100,000 logo for us?None of that actuallyever happened.None of it.That means that we cansubmit a number basedon having a conversationwith the clientand getting a feel for how muchthey can afford to pay for it.And we just putthat number down.And we say logo, right?And we describe whatthey're going to get.With no backup of time.So when you say like you geta feel for their number, like,yes, you get a feelfor that number.Katy, you're trying to getthe most from this call today,aren't you?Which I think is fantastic.I'm sure you have lots andlots of questions about this.Ok?how do we get afeel for the number?OK we just use words.It's we float anumber out there.It's a trial, right?So we're getting afeel for this now.There's a number,a different numberof ways to approach this.All right.I'm going to justtell you the oneI think is most relatable toyou right now where you're ator I presume you'reat in your life, ok?How much do you typically chargefor something that you do?Well, I don't charge enoughnow, but I'm playing well.No, no judgment.No judgment.I just want answers.We'll get a lot more doneif you just give me answers.Go ahead.Well, like 1,200 forbrand foundation,which is core andwebsite brand total.What's the total number?My biggest packageis like 11,000.That's like everything, ok?11,000 for the whole shebang.Yeah that's what Ben wouldcall the girlfriend experience.You get everything right.The massage at theend of it, it'sa wonderful and scented candles.It's perfect.$11,000 OK, now when you'retalking to a prospect,I think in yourmind I'm imaginingthis like, Oh my god, Ohmy god, should I ask themfor the whole thing or not?Or how do I do this?And then you'regenerally kind of scared.So you don't say anything, andthen you go and say, OK, great.Thank you very much.I will send you aproposal, right?And so your courage is thatyou writing the proposal,that's typicallyhow people do it.Yeah, I've heard it too.But then I think you had totalk where, like you say,you said like 10% or a certainpercentage of your printingor 5% or 10% There wassome strategy behind it.I'm sure I'm sure itwas well thought out.Yeah, maybe.OK, OK.But here's the firstthing everybodyhas in this positionwith Katie, youneed to reallylisten to this partand pay attention right now.OK what we need todo is we need to talkabout the budget with theclient on the phone or in personbefore we do any proposal,any bid or any estimate.This is somethingthat I've learned,and now I think there's no wayI could do it any other way.So I'm talking to you.I'm getting a sense ofwhat it is that you need.And I'm taking really kindof diligent notes here.I said, OK, so Katie,based on what you said,you want this, thisand that done right?OK, so four previousclients, I wouldcharge somewherebetween 15,000 to 18,000to do that whole thing.We jokingly refer to asthe girlfriend experience.Does that number work for you?Then you get to respond, Katy.No, it does not.What were you thinking?Like, 10, nine, 10, nine or 10.All right.And maybe I don't need to giveyou everything that I thought.I heard so maybe we canscale some of this backif that's what you want.OK, maybe you don'tneed the website,maybe we don't needto do the brochure.Maybe we don't need todo the social campaign.Is that OK with you?OK, so you just throw outa number basically and thenpretty much standard.OK, Yeah.And then you just go back,fill it in and to bid.OK, so, so Blair ends rulein pricing creativity is,you say, a price beforeyou show a price.OK so you must have the courageto say what the price is.It's scary at first.Just pretend I'm next to youand just kind of egging youon like you can do it.You can do it.OK OK.Do you think you can do it?I can do it.OK do you think it works?Everybody has ever done this.Who's listen to?My advice is shocked andsurprised in a positive way,and then they message me later.Like what?Like, yeah, there'sonly one personwho is doubting whetheror not it would work.And that was.I know it works.So people tell me, likeit's a revelation to me.No, I'm not givingyou bad advice.This is really what happens.Hassan is saying it works.So many people havebeen able to make doublewhat they make today justby changing their rateand saying it out loud,and it's totally OK.Now, look what happened there.I'm going to explainit just briefly here.I told you between 15,000to 18,000 what I was doingis anchoring.I was dropping a priceanchor for you, right?I knew you normallyget a lot of the brand.But what did you do?You pulled me back to 10with just 401(k shy of whatyour highest pricepackage is, right?Right?imagine if I began theconversation with 11 k,what are you going topull me to seven eight?See, it's like Chinatown.When you go shopping for theperson, you just anchor high.Just anchor high.OK, so we want to float ahigher number than the onethat we want to get.OK and everyone's wanted.They say Yes.OK OK.And there's room.It's like, OK, well, maybewe need to take a couple.Yeah, let me rethink this.Maybe I overthoughtit, whatever.Let's trim this a little bit.Actually, I actually didthis exact same thing,and I just signed to find today.I just signed a clienttoday and we scaled down,so I started off highbecause I wanted everything.And I asked herfor what no works.And she said, five,I'm like, well,how about we start with this.And we work our waytowards what you'relooking for as you buildcapacity and budget?She's like, I'm like,does this make sense?She's like, yeah,it makes sense.And then, yeah, wejust we agreed ona number there inperson, and thenI sent the quote the nextday and she was OK with it.So pretty easy when you justhave a genuine conversationwith a person and then basedon likability, like shewas such a nice person, I wantedto help her as much as I can.And I did throw in a few thingssaying that, you know what?I'm going to do this for you.We'll scale back and discovery.Rather than doinga full day, we'lldo a mini discovery with you.Does that sound good?And she's she loved itand just trying to builda relationship with her?Yeah, Yeah.It's I think you can havethat choice when you want to.OK, here's what Iwant you guys to do.I know there's a lotof anxiety, what we'retalking about moneywith the client,and this is where my icecold veins, you know,I don't get intothat emotional spaceand I won't talk to you alittle bit about this, ok?If you have to meditate,if you have to chant,if you have thestandard in your head,if you have to doPilates before youhave these kindof conversations,do what you got to do.But here's the thingthat I want youto think about thatbecause there'sa prospect, a lead on the line.If you come intowith anticipation,you must close this jobthat you need this job,it's going to createthe wrong mindset.You're going to havethe scarcity mindset.You're going to sounddesperate, you'regoing to sound really anxious.And that's going to messup your game entirely.Now, if you were advisingor coaching a friend,you had nothing on the line.Your tone wouldbe very differentthan if you were tryingto bring a client in.So you have to do someexercises, mental exercisesto figure out howyou can achieve this.Mindset where youare is very neutralif you listen to Raul's tone.He's like a super chill guy.He's just like, yeah, andthere's this and there's thatand maybe we can work together.Maybe it's 5K andI kind of like you,I'd rather workwith you than not.It creates this.Space where people feel like,yeah, I guess he's on my side,he's not really tryingto sell me anything.Anybody that's trying toconvince you I'm the best,this is what you need.You have a verydifferent reactionto that's what thingslike Jennifer was saying.You know, like when people getreally pushy and demanding, itcreates the wrong feeling in us.There was a study on thisagain on not a podcast,but an NPR kind of program wherethey talked about what, whatdid they learn about people whowere part of this experiment?I think it was that I don'tremember some prominent schoolwhere there's a personin a room and they'retold to hit the buttonto electrify themif they didn't have the rightanswer or something like that.And the buttondidn't really work,but we're willing to crankup the level of electricity,the voltage to themaximum where theywould kill the person it wastold of if they had to do it,or if they just wanted to.That's right.So if they feltcompelled to experiment?Thank you very much.If they felt compelled likeit was their duty to do this,even despite not wanting to doit, they would overcome that.But if you told people,you have to do something,we don't like to becontrolled as human beings.So whenever you tellsomebody you have toand you're veryforceful, just purelybecause you told me I had to doit, I don't want to do it now.So the more neutral you cancome in to the conversationwithout any expectation, thebetter off you're going to be.The tone, the attitude, thelanguage, the words you choosewill be very different.Now, I will tellyou, this is notkind of a thing ofbragging or anything,but I have talkedto clients whena million plus was on the line.It's no different to me than $1.Doesn't matter, it's like,you know what, yesterday.No million job appearedtomorrow will be the same.My life is going to move on.So here today andtomorrow, god, yousay you want to come offas if you don't reallyneed the project.100% You need tobelieve that though.Yeah, course right now,Blair says in the book.Whoever wants it a little bitless wins the negotiation.Cecil roars like Ilike to work with her.So all of a sudden, he startsmaking concessions and throwingin extra thingsbecause he genuinelywants to work with her.And I was smiling like,ooh, don't do that,don't listen to thatvoice inside of you.Like, oh, this isgoing to be great.I really like you.I like all my clients.I like the ones whopay more better.Yes I can I build on thisdiscussion a little bit?Of course, would yourefuse the projectif the client pushesyou in directlyto bypass the strategy?OK good question on Katie's.Katie's argumentsat the beginning,but this also scalesup to bigger projectlike, for example,someone wants to buildthe corporate identity.We try to explain theprocess, we do discovery,we do strategy wherethe thinking happensand then we do design.Then the client comesin and tells you.But I will give you this shit.You just do the design andwe try to explain to them.And then this backand forth happens.So would you stop andrefuse the project or,you know, OK, I get it.It's Richard.Yes, we are.If a client is talking to melike that, I'm out the door.OK there's no point ofreason at this point, right?So this is potentiallyhow this conversationwas set up to begin with.Now, in business termsor marketing terms,it's called positioning.They don't see you as a personwho they should listen to.OK OK.And I think Blair talksabout this in his book,it's called the I thinkit calls it the flip.Where the role inthe power flips overfrom the client havingall the power to you,having all the power.And how does that happen.When the clientsrealize you're notjust here to executeon their desires,but you have reallysmart observations,then you want to speakon a strategic levelis when they lean in and theystop telling you what to do.OK excellent.OK, so you guys, you havebad feelings about a client,just say, you know what?I'm sorry, I don't meanto waste your time.I don't think I'm theright person for youbecause you sound likeyou just want somebodyto do exactly what you want.And I've done thatearlier in my career,and that's led to not goodresults for either of us.So you deserve to havethat kind of person.I'm just not that person.Then then a person is like,whoa, wait, wait, wait.What do you mean?Talk to me, I don't wantI want to work with you.And then the power startsto come back to you.See how that works, Richard.Yeah, it makes sense.So now channelingthis into a proposaland scaling it down toKatie's social media project,for example, do youput your strategyyour blended with the monthlyfee or you keep it aside?You start with thatstrategy cost x and y is y.OK OK, now you're asking likea very complicated question.And now it's likewe're pretty far awayfrom where we started here.Like we've drifted offaway from the shore.I could barely see it nowin our little boat know.It's like, Oh my god, thefog has rolled in here again.I'll try my best toanswer this question.I'm going to tell you guysthe preferred way of buildinga project and anestimate is this.You give the clientsa general ideaof what the potentialtotal cost is going to be,but we're not committedto any of the deliverablesuntil after we do the discovery.That is the idealway to do any projectto sit down and say,look, we need sit down,we need to scopethe project, we gotto figure out whatyour needs areand to reallyunderstand the problem.For that, I'm goingto charge you 10,000.OK and should you want tobuild the website, the video,a new logo, whatever itis that you want to build,it potentiallycan cost somewherebetween this and this.But I can't give you an accurateestimate for any of thisuntil we kind of figure outwhat it is that we're building.And in my experience,it's turned outthat oftentimes what youthink you want to buildisn't what you need at all.And the only way wecan find out about thatis through discovery.And I think as an insurancepolicy of wasting timeand money, don't you thinkit's important for usto figure out if any of thisis going to work before we goand build any of it?The last thing we want to dois to rebuild your website,only to have yourconversion ratio go down.Only for you to do less revenue.Only for you to convertat a slower rate.So let's have a plan, don'tyou think that's a good idea?And this is kind of akin to whata person might go through whenthey want to build a house.You would never justhire a contractorand say, build me a house.You would have anarchitect, do sketchesand you would plan it out andyou would build blueprints.And then from thatyou would get a bidand you would getcompetitive bidsand we can help youthrough that process.But to me, the strategypart is the design,the thinking in theblueprint processand after which you canwork with me or not, youcan work with whoever you want,but at least you have a planand it makes sense.How does that sound?I'm sold.See, that's how you would do it.Thank you.Yeah, you're welcome.OK I have no idea whatwe're talking about anymore.I know we came in fora competitive auditand now we're talkinglike coaching, right?So all of you guys are in here.Especially those of you guysare not the business boot camp.You may or may not know whatthe heck I'm talking aboutand the easiest thingthat you can do.There's a couple of quick tipsI'm going to give you, right?The first thing that I want youto do is get into this mindsetlike, I don't need this.Just say, no, this isn't right.No and just walk away.The more times you sayno, the more likelythe clients are going tostart to raise their priceor concede to whateverthings that you want,they're going to makeconcessions for you.The person who wantsit all the time, whosays Yes to everything,has no bargaining left.And here's the cool part.I use this with mykids all the time.One great way to defeat anargument or request or a whineor nagging thing thatcomes from my kidsis just to say it ina very emphatic wayand never explain it.It works like a charm.Anybody here have kids, thisis like life parenting advicehere, ok?My wife, for whatever reason.We'll explain to the kids everysingle thing on the surfacelike, wow, what a loving mother.But now they feel like theycan debate and negotiatewith her on everything.What happens?She's tired, shewants to go to bed,or she wants to eat dinner, soshe gives in to their demands.Over time, her poweris completely eroded.So now it's like whatever shedecides, there's a long debate.How does dad do it?Kids are right wherewe're going out.Any more information?Well, we're goingto go eat well,we're going to eat wellwhere they serve food.Would you like to eat, get inthe car if you don't stay here,make your own food?This is how I negotiate withmy kids, because it's painfuland I can see what's happenedwith my wife for her.They've just broken her down.And usually where I addsome nuance, not new ones,but I add another layer to this.So here's the thingthat's going to drivethat owns the car that'sgoing to pay for the food.Dad gets to decide that isnot asking for your opinion.Where to eat.OK, let's relate thisto clients, right?This is the price, Idon't need to explain it.If you'd like to work withme, this is the price, if not,you have many options.I encourage you to exploreany and all of them.And if they don't giveyou what you want?Call me.But the consequenceof that is this oneis that you haveless time to do it.Therefore, my rates willbe higher because it'sgoing to be a rush thing too.You'll waste a lot of time,some frustration and money.So instead of payingme for what it's worth,you're probably going topay 2 times what it's worth,but that's up to you becausethat's your prerogative.And that's it.This idea of us havingto explain and justifyand convince our pricesfor the work that we do.I don't know wherethat came from,but it seems like it'sa very popular idea.I want to say youguys were taught that,but you weren'ttaught that because Iknow they don't teach youthis stuff in school anyways.So somehow we've toldourselves like secretly.That we've got to gothrough all these thingsto convince people.And then you lose allyour power and they justnegotiate and tear you downand take everything out,just say this is the price.Would you like to work together?Let's do good work together,man, I think I can help you.I'll give you one morelittle tidbit here.The client asked me to helpthem with a virtual realityexperience.And I said, I don'teven know how muchto charge you for this.Well, Chris, we have K to do it.I said, you know what?I'm not sure if that'sfair or not fair.I'm going to acceptit because we'reall like, I want to work withyou right there, good clients.I'll accept it.But I want to have this caveat.If it turns out to be a lotmore work than either of usanticipated, thatwe're going to haveto revisit this conversationand I'll let when we get there.Is that fair with you guys?Yeah, it's fair.Let's do it.OK I did it.It was a little bit morework than I thought,but they called meagain, said Chris.We have a reallyimportant VR experience.We need your help.So now I know whereI'm going in there,I'm asking for more money.It's one of the few timeswhere I've been paid justto give my input.I didn't do any ofthe work our firm did.None of the work.Somebody else did it.They hired a VR company tobuild them the whole thing.Now I said, I wrotea little treatment.They would send over tests andI would make comments on it.And that was it.Wouldn't you like to getpaid to do that, you guys?Wouldn't you like to getpaid for every time youhad to meet witha client and talkto them if they had called youup for a piece of advice or.To walk them through the plan,and that should be the case.We got to get over this ideathat the only billable hoursof the time spent on makingsomething for the clientthat in truth.It's going to hurt a little bit.It's the lowest valuething that you make.I'd love to share alittle tiny short tidbit.My dad said to me yesterday thatit was great for my mindset,and he just saidin his experiencewith being inbusiness for himself,if anyone ever asks him,oh, is that your best price?He says, Oh no.I could double it.Let me say that one more time,OK, the things that you makeare the lowest value thingsthat you can charge for.It's all the thinking, thefiguring out the connectingthe dots, advising the clients.That's where the real value is.Once you start torealize that you'lltransform yourself and yourbusiness and your bottom line.