The Million-Dollar Mistake
You have an opportunity. A rare one. After countless hours of work, a potential client with a real need and a real budget is finally on the phone. The pressure is immense. You can almost feel the weight of your own desperation, the quiet voice that says, 'I have to make this work.'
This is where the fumble happens. Anxiety spikes. You get stuck on a script or, worse, you have no plan at all. Afterward, you kick yourself, replaying what you should have said or what you wish you hadn't. The opportunity is gone.
For The Futur’s founder, Chris Do, this pain is not theoretical. It’s a multi-million-dollar lesson learned the hard way. Before building an education platform, Do ran the motion design and branding agency Blind, Inc. for over two decades. In the early days, he was just like any other creative: confident in his portfolio, but a novice in the art of the sale.
“We were told in school if your work is good enough, people will just give you work,” Do recalls. “You don't have to learn how to sell. And that's a pile of crap.”
The hard truth is that talent is not a substitute for sales acumen. It is merely the price of admission. Good gets you in, but good doesn't help you to win.
In the beginning, Blind was getting at-bats. They were invited to pitch for major brands like Nissan, Sun Microsystems, and Janus Funds. One call came from Chris Graves, the executive creative director at the legendary agency Chiat/Day, famous for its decades of work with Apple. The project was an $85,000 end tag for a Nissan commercial, with the potential for hundreds of thousands more in follow-on work.
After the clients explained their needs, a young and inexperienced Do was frozen. “I was just like a deer in the headlights,” he admits. “I didn't even know what to say. I just said, ‘Cool, good idea.’”
The call ended quickly. The opportunity evaporated. He could practically hear the sound of a Sharpie crossing his name off the list. This pattern repeated itself. Pitch after pitch, Blind routinely lost to bigger, more established teams. By Do’s conservative estimate, they left over a million dollars in new business on the table in the first two years alone.
When factoring in the repeat business that a single project can generate, that number swells to a staggering five or six million dollars. The constant rejection was demoralizing. “I kept looking at my team, mostly my friends, and I kept asking ourselves, ‘What are we doing wrong? How come we can't win these pitches?’” Do says. “I felt really bad because I was thinking, ‘I guess I'm just not good enough.’”
This is a familiar spiral for many creatives. A string of rejections starts to feel like a judgment on your self-worth. It breeds a false connection: the belief that your inability to win a sales call reflects your inability to do the work itself. But as coach Jule Kim points out, “The only thing that tells me is you suck at showing up on the sales call.” It is a skill problem, not a talent problem.
The Sinner’s Playbook: Why You're Losing the Sale
So what was the critical error that cost Blind millions? It was a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of a sales conversation.
“I didn't understand that I'm supposed to ask the clients questions about what they wanted,” Do explains. “I just took it at face value. Whatever it is they said was literally what they wanted, and I was supposed to magically understand those words without further dialogue.”
This led to the second, more destructive mistake: the moment the client stopped talking, Do believed it was his turn to pitch ideas. This is the single most common failure point in sales calls for creatives. You’re so eager to prove your value that you jump to solutions before you’ve even diagnosed the problem. A concept Do discusses in The Art of Listening & Communication is that questions are for discovery, not interrogation.
The process was a recipe for failure:
- The Preparation: The agency would fax over a script. Do would read it, highlight key phrases, and start brainstorming ideas before the call even began.
- The Call (Part 1): While the client was talking, Do wasn’t truly listening. He was thinking, “It's almost my turn to talk.” His heart pounded, his mind raced, and he mentally rehearsed his pre-scripted questions.
- The Call (Part 2): He would ask his questions, but he wasn’t even listening to the answers. His brain was already jumping ahead to the pitch he had prepared. He was trying to turn everything into a nail for his hammer.
- The Pitch: Then came the awkward pivot. “Here's my vision for what we're going to do.” The client would listen politely, offer tepid, non-committal feedback, and the call would end. The result was always the same: another lost opportunity.
This approach splits your brain into multiple, conflicting channels. You’re trying to listen to the client, remember your prepared questions, process their answers in real-time, and formulate a brilliant pitch simultaneously. It’s an impossible task that guarantees one thing: you are not present.
When you operate this way, you are not in a conversation. You are in a performance. You are not trying to help the client; you are trying to persuade them. This dynamic is what makes a buyer’s defenses go up. It feels like you have an ulterior motive because you do: to sell your service, regardless of whether it’s the right fit.
Breaking Rapport: The Subtle Art of Self-Sabotage
The modern buyer is highly attuned to disingenuous sales tactics. They can feel the shift from authentic conversation to a sales pitch. Do describes this as a “hard cut,” an edit in a film so jarring it pulls you out of the dream state of the movie.
“You're building rapport or you're breaking rapport,” he says. In a good conversation, you’re in sync, vibing, seeing eye to eye. The moment you do something that feels salesy or manipulative, you break that connection. The buyer’s spider-sense tingles. “Wait, what's happening here? Oh, I think you want to sell me something.”
This disconnect happens in several common ways.
One is the use of leading questions. A leading question is a fake question designed to elicit a specific response. For example: “Why do you think personal branding will help you?” This question makes three dangerous assumptions: that the client knows what personal branding is, that they want it, and that they believe it will help. A savvy client immediately recognizes this as a setup. It’s a transparent attempt to lead them directly to the service you sell, a flaw Do often sees in coaching sessions about building a personal brand.
Another disconnect is the deceptive opener. Many creatives, afraid of appearing “salesy,” will open a call with a false promise. They might perform an “accusation audit,” a technique from former FBI negotiator Chris Voss, by saying something like: “You might think I’m about to pitch the heck out of you, and I just want you to know that's not going to happen.”
But then, minutes later, they launch into a pitch. This isn't just burning goodwill; it’s an outright lie. “How you do anything is how you do everything,” Do warns. “If you're going to lie to me during the courtship, what's going to happen when I give you money and I have no more leverage over you?”
You do not need to deceive the client. There is an implicit agreement for a sales call: the buyer has a problem and money to spend, and the seller has a potential solution. Acknowledging this reality is a sign of respect. Trying to hide it is a sign of manipulation.
Cut the Small Talk and Take Control
One of the most pervasive and time-wasting habits in sales calls is the prolonged small talk. You talk about the weather, their weekend, their health. You believe you’re building rapport. You are not.
“That is just you setting up a smokescreen for what you really need to talk about,” Do states bluntly. “Which is: why are we having this conversation today?”
The number one rule is to respect the person in front of you. The way you do that is by honoring their time. High-value clients are busy. The more urgent their problem, the less patience they have for pleasantries. Get straight to business. If there’s time for small talk after the work is done, great. But handle the important part first.
This requires taking control of the conversation. Not through dominance, but through leadership. In a live role-play, Do demonstrates exactly how to do this. When Jule Kim opens the call with effusive praise, “Oh my God, Chris, I’m such a huge fan... I loved that last video you did on imposter syndrome,” Do doesn’t get sidetracked.
His response is a masterclass in conversational control:
- Acknowledge and Redirect: He graciously accepts the compliment (“Wow, that’s super flattering”) but immediately grounds it with a specific follow-up (“What was that last video you were referring to?”). This shows he’s listening but also requires the client to be intentional. He then pivots directly back to the purpose of the call: “Is that video related to the reason why we're having this call today?”
- Ask for Permission to Lead: He then makes a crucial move. “I'd like to ask for your permission to run the agenda for this call... Is that okay?” This is the foundation of consent-based conversation. He is not seizing control; he is being granted it. This simple question makes the client feel safe and confident that the person they are speaking to has a plan.
- Frame and Time-Box the Call: He confirms the scheduled time (“We've scheduled 30 minutes... is that still the case?”) and asks about flexibility (“Is there a hard out at 30?”). This eliminates end-of-call anxiety and reinforces that he respects their time by managing it effectively.
- Address Hesitation: When Kim shows a slight hesitation, Do notices it immediately. “I noticed some hesitation there. Do you have some reservations about me cutting you off?” This demonstrates profound listening and empathy. He doesn't ignore the feeling; he addresses it directly, which builds even more trust.
In this short exchange, Do dismantled the common traps. Instead of getting lost in a fan’s praise, he used it as a bridge to the core issue. Instead of assuming control, he asked for it. Instead of talking, he listened, not just to the words but to the unspoken hesitation. It’s a powerful demonstration of how to lead without dominating, a crucial skill for anyone trying to close more deals in their sales calls.
A Framework for Confident Sales Conversations
The solution to sales anxiety is not to have a rigid script, nor is it to “wing it.” The solution is to have a flexible framework that guides the conversation toward a productive outcome. The goal is to move from a state of proving your worth to a state of a diagnosing a problem.
Do’s method is built on a few core principles.
First, practice evidence-based followup. When a client says something, prove you heard it by asking a specific, clarifying question. When the client in the role-play mentioned a video on imposter syndrome, Do asked, “Which video?” This small move forces accountability and signals that you are paying close attention. As Kim noted, “I had this moment of startlement... but then it made me think immediately right after that is, ‘Oh, this guy actually is paying attention.’”
Second, use the 80/20 rule of conversation. For the first 80% of the call, the client should be talking 80% of the time. You should be talking 20% of the time, primarily asking questions. “When your mouth is moving, you're not learning anything,” Do says. Only in the final 20% of the call, after you have a clear diagnosis, should you talk more as you connect the dots and present your recommended solution. If you find yourself talking 80% of the time at the beginning, you are trying to prove your worth, not solve their problem.
Third, think of the conversation as a vehicle on a two-lane road. Your job is to gently place guardrails to keep it from careening off a cliff. When the client starts to drift into irrelevant territory, you must guide them back. Do this by connecting what they just said back to the main purpose of the call, as he did with the imposter syndrome video. It’s a smooth, respectful way to maintain focus. This is a topic he expands on in his discussion on listening techniques.
Finally, understand the psychology of safety. “Children feel safe when they know someone's in charge,” Do explains, referencing a lesson from family therapists. While a client is not a child, the principle holds. When you get on a call and demonstrate that you have a plan and know how to lead a productive conversation, you make them feel secure. They can relax because they are in the hands of a professional. If they knew how to solve their own problem, they wouldn't be on a call with you in the first place.
Your confidence doesn't come from a script. It comes from having a system, from knowing what you need to accomplish at each stage of the conversation. It comes from hundreds of at-bats, from practicing the swings over and over again until the mechanics are second nature.
The anxiety you feel is a signal. It’s telling you that you’re unprepared. It’s telling you that you’re focused on yourself, not the client. Change the focus. Stop trying to persuade. Start trying to understand.
Your job on a sales call is not to get a “yes.” It is to find the truth.
TRANSCRIPT
you might think that you're coming to this call and I'm about to pitch the heck out of you and I just want you to know that that's not going to happen so you may buy yourself some Goodwill but then what happened you pitched them you burn all of that Goodwill it's like what
the heck man I think you go beyond burning Goodwill you just lied what is up everybody today's episode is a little bit different because I'm excited to tell you about a workshop that juel and myself and Carlos Garcia are doing October 12th in Miami full day workshop and the second one is in
London it's a two-day workshop that's October 29th and the 30th here's the analogy I want to make for you you don't read a book on how to play baseball you just go out and play baseball and then in the swings and the practice coaches will make little adjustments for you and you'll see
your game improve you don't read a book on how to play tennis you just go out in the court and you hit lots of balls and so we're expecting ourselves to read a book on sales to watch videos or to do role plays that are 10 15 minutes long at best and we
think we're going to have this transformative moment now a lot of you do achieve this regardless of how you you consume the information but the best way that you learn how to do something is just to do it and the only way I know how to do that aside from wasting potential business
opportunities is to go to a workshop where you can get that individual attention from coaches who care about your success and we're going to give you a little preview of the kinds of things we're going to talk about and we have no structure for this conversation but we know this is an important
discussion to have because you work so hard to get your leads they finally get on the call on a zoom call or meeting face to face and you fumble the bag as they say you're full of anxiety you don't know what to say you're stuck on certain scripts and then afterwards you're kind
of just kicking yourself in the butt like why didn't I say that or why did I say that it's either what you said or what you didn't say and it's a lot of pressure especially when you think how rare it is for you to have an opportunity to sit or speak in front
of an live client who has money who needs Services who needs your help so all you have to do is show up so that's what we're going to talk about today oh man that last part of what you said I felt the pain I was like yeah it's not like I get leads
coming in every single week and I do feel that pain like even now I'm cringing it's like when you don't have leads coming in every single day or maybe not even every week it feels like the chances at bat are few and far between so then that's where it gets pretty hard to
not come at these calls with that like sense of desperation you know I've had so many people just like you say I have to make this work and I'm like Oh no you're already starting off on the wrong foot man right well let's address that first because perhaps you're listening to this podcast
and you have no idea that I used to run a production company for 20 plus years where I sold creative services and you have to learn how to sell otherwise you go broke and you you starve and so I want to talk about that a little bit and how this process shaped the
way that I think my philosophy my Approach my tone and so it'll give you some context okay so 1995 I'm out of school graduated art center and I start my business foolishly probably a lot sooner than I should have I guess I was filled with a lot of confidence Moxy and determination borderline
arrogance to think I have a good portfolio people should just hire me it shouldn't be any effort because we were told in school if your work is good enough people will just give you work you don't have to learn how to sell and that's a pile of crap let me just tell you
that right now it is important that your work is good but being good is just a cost of Entry you don't get to play in the game if your work isn't good let's just accept that good gets you in but good doesn't help you to win okay say it one more time gets
you in but good isn't what gets you the win luckily for me I was at the right time and the right place that I got a lot of at bats I got a lot of opportunities to swing that bat now most of you aren't in that situation you're in the league which is
cool because your work is good enough you're in the majors but you're bench you're not even the starting lineup it's not until somebody gets hurt or they feel like a need to change strategies or it's late in the inning and they have no hope they put you in and you get a swing
or two but when you are so infrequent at your at bats your practice that every time you go up to take another swing it's like you're starting from zero again you can't remember what you're supposed to do and so you're just fumbling all the time this is true in almost everything that you
do that's difficult for me that was like public speaking if I was only booked every 3 6 n months I was so Rusty in between I might as well just be starting over it wasn't until I started accepting public speaking gigs on the regular that actually developed a system I got really good
got confident and those butterflies they're still there but they're very small butterflies now and in fact it's not as draining to me as it used to be so when you're in in my case getting probably three to five new business calls every single week for projects ranging from on the lowend $50,000 and
on the highend probably 3 350 $350,000 and so it's learned through repeated attempts at taking swings at something being in front of new clients trying new ideas and then refining the process with the addition of a business coach who was the thing that I needed to get to that breakthrough moment so I
just want to put that out there so that people understand that context my confidence my ability to speak to clients my ease comes from hundreds of pitches that I've done over the course of my career just putting that out there so you all know you know Chris I'm really glad you shared this
because I think I've told you more than once people will watch what you're doing they'll watch your videos they'll listen to you and your LinkedIn calls and they're probably having the same reaction that I had to you 3 years ago where I was just like how is he doing that it's like I'm
watching a magic trick and now fast forward for Me 3 years later I'm like I get it I get it it took a lot of studying what you were doing a lot of studying of coaching as well on my part since I'm a coach and suddenly it's not so inconceivable there's still certain
things you do that I find magical like don't get me wrong even like the tone of voice you use I'm like holy moly how is that guy doing this you're able to say certain things with such warmth and I'm like god it feels like being wrapped in a warm blade think it it's
just so annoying you're you're just too good but I think what a lot of us are sitting out there in the audience thinking Chris can do it but I can't other people can do it but I can't and that's kind of the purpose of the call because I don't think I hear you
share your story enough the first two years of you running blind how much money did you lose for clarification blind is the name of the company because one could listen to this and say you're running blind like dumb DEA and blind actually the company name is blind ink okay so just letting everybody
know I was probably doing both literally and figuratively Running Blind here's the sad part because I hadn't worked in a capacity where I could watch other salespeople or upper management creative directors talk to clients I had no idea what you're supposed to say it's like somebody described this to me like imagine playing
chess but you don't know the rules and you're blindfolded that's what the sales game feels like you think you're making moves but you're actually committing probably career or financial suicide in the way that you move so the first part is take off the blindfold so you can see what's going on and then
learn the rules of the game and I didn't have any of that so I was just fumbling and bumbling through calls left and right I don't know to this day looking back how I even got on some of these calls because those days we didn't have a sales rep I don't even know
how people found out about us but I don't know if you know but there's an agency called shy at day they do the advertising for apple and they've been doing it for decades now the executive creative director Chris Graves called calls us up along with his team for a job for Nissan now
this is a big deal because car companies are well-funded and the work that you're going to do is going to be seen by thousands if not hundreds of thousands maybe even millions of people so there was a lot writing on this call and so once the clients finished talking about what they wanted
I was just like a deer in the headlights I didn't even know what to say I'm going to be fully like transparent I just said cool good idea and I'm sure they're like who the fudge scheduled a call with this idot because the call quickly wrapped up I think I for self-preservation blanked
out the rest of this but I think that was like an $85,000 animated end tag thing that could have led to hundreds of thousands of dollars of more work that's how this works so opportunity after opportunity for sun micr systems for Janice funds for um I'm spacing on some of these other companies
we would pitch and just routinely lose and these were pitches where the jobs were real these aren't like speculative projects they were going to award it to one of five people they're talking to and so by my estimation on the conservative side I think we left over a million dollars of new business
on the table just in the initial phase because as you know when you work with someone they tend to hire you over and over again as an example we worked with Deutsch Deutsch La we did the regional Mitsubishi Motors spots and that was I think like4 or $50,000 and that one opportunity led
to the National work which led to us working on almost all of the accounts leading to m millions of dollars so when I say an estimate we probably lost over a million dollars in new business that's just the initial wave if I think about the second and third wave to this is probably
five to6 million of new business that we just lost and it was heartbreaking it was demoralizing cuz I kept looking at my team mostly my friends and I kept asking ourselves like what are we doing wrong how come we can't win these pitches and I felt really bad cuz I was thinking I
guess I'm just not good enough oh man that hit me so hard because that's another thing I've had people tell me in the DMS is when you don't get enough yeses in a row you start to question your self worth you start to think oh maybe I'm an impostor maybe I'm not so
good at this like any of this job and that's where we start to build like what I call a false connection it's like what has you think that your ability to show up on the sales call has anything to do with your ability to be a designer or to do branding it's like
the only thing that tells me is you suck at showing up on the sales call there's something happening there so if you look back over these calls what would you say is the number one mistake or the number one thing you didn't get back then I think the biggest thing that I didn't
get that time juel was I didn't understand that I'm supposed to ask the clients questions about what they wanted I just took it at face value whatever it is they said was literally what they wanted and I was supposed to magically understand those words without further dialogue I also made the mistake and
this is a big one of once they stopped talking it was my turn to pitch ideas so this means that what would typically happen is the agency would send you a script they'd fax over back then they would fax it over to you did you get the boards and you would read through
the script you would highlight with your marker make notes figure out what kind of questions you wanted to ask and then you started to think about ideas and this was a very dangerous thing because when they were talking walking us through the script I wasn't really listening I was thinking about it's almost
my turn to talk and my heart is racing and just pounding out of my chest was like oh my God oh my God it's almost my turn it feels like we're nearing the end of what they're saying and now I have to figure out what to say so I had a couple options
asked a couple of prescripted questions which in hindsight was really stupid because they had said things on the call that were more important more relevant to what they were thinking about than any stupid question I was going to come up with by just looking at the printed material yes I did need to
read the script so I can familiarize myself with it but arriving at the call with so many preconceived ideas and Half Baked questions or even fully baked questions did not allow me to listen so often times I was juggling what am I hearing what do I want to ask well that was important
but I need to ask this question and so often times I'd have to go retrace what was said with the question I had intended to ask to say did they ask it or did they already answer this because it would sound really stupid if I asked the same question that they had already
said and this was problematic so my brain was split into like multiple layers and here's the here's the third worst part after asking those questions which then they answered I was even listening to those answers to my own questions because I was thinking I have ideas I'm supposed to pitch and I thought
that's how you're supposed to do this so as soon as I stopped asking questions then came this awkward transition from asking to well so here's my vision for what we're going to do and people are very polite on these calls cuz they know they didn't pay you you put in your own time
and energy to come up with some ideas and because that was the case they never gave you real feedback so I was like okay they're kind of tepid in the response but it wasn't like this is the dumbest thing ever they didn't ever correct you on your ideas they just knew I think
what was happening as I imagine in my mind they took a marker and they just crossed your name off that list of five people I could almost hear the the Sharpie as it my name was scraped off I was like oh yeah I'm not getting this gig I already know it and so
I toiled in that kind of losing job after losing job the decate of depression it's demoralizing and just trying to pick myself up by saying well at least you're invited to the party because who we were pitching against were industry standards the teams that were pitching were bigger than our entire company put
together so I would console myself at night and say yeah at least we're invited you know it's cool to be somewhat relevant that's the best I can make out of a bad situation the first part where you said you didn't know you can ask questions or even that really that's the thing to
do but I'm sorry I laughed but I only laughed because I know I did the same thing in my early on coaching calls it's like you're so obsessed even once you get on the track of understanding you're supposed to ask questions you become obsessed with asking the right questions so you're not listening
cuz you're like what's the next question I'm supposed to ask so then it's like what's the point of any of this yeah and then the other part you said I know I've heard like a million times you said you thought when they stopped talking it was your turn to pitch ideas you're supposed
to pitch and that is the number one thing I see happening in all of the role plays you and I do together it it's like literally every person it's like you are out there trying to turn everything into a nail for your Hammer right like I think you say all roads lead back
to you like we just heard somebody the other day say you were role playing and it was maybe like a book deal and instead of asking like what's important about this book deal for you she replied with oh yeah see that's why you need personal branding right all roads LED right back to
personal branding coincident the thing that she wants to sell me yeah yeah coincidentally so I think one of the biggest themes that I've been seeing like as I've been reflecting cuz we just did role plays literally this week two days ago I think we come into the sales call with this mistaken idea
that we're supposed to persuade them that we're supposed to keep saying Hey That's why you should hire me hey you know what I do that hey I can do that and in my mind when I'm the person as the buyer I'm sure many people out there would think I'm like a nightmare client
or are a nightmare buyer but I promise you I'm one of those people where I'm probably buying a product every single week if not more often than that like what's the thing you said to me I don't know but you love buying things you're addicted to learning so you spent a lot of
money I do so I'm actually not that hard to sell to but what I don't tolerate are people who give me no evidence they show me no proof that they can do what they say they can do and that's all I keep seeing over and over in our world Ro plays is instead
of literally showing me hey here's something you might find useful they're all running the role plays with yeah I can do that or there's a ton of interrogation so many questions and I I start to think where is this going and did they even hear me so then the vibe check starts to
fail you're pointing out a problem here that a lot of people have we're either stuck between one of two points number one is we have the script and we just stick to the script because someone told us we need to have a sales script so it's more important for you to get through
your sales questions than it is for you to listen so that's a big problem in itself and I have a general problem with people who have seemingly default phrases that they want to use to persuade you to buy and it feels really disingenuous I don't think you're looking out for me and it
it doesn't feel authentic and the other mistake that people have is they go in with no plan so let's just freestyle this whole thing and we can just wing it because you know Chris told us be present and ask questions but you can tell pretty clearly that there's no strategy they'll just ask
question after question and if I'm listening to this as a coach or just as a bystander I'm thinking this is a wild goose chase I have no idea the questions aren't leading or scaffolding towards identifying a real problem a real goal a need or a challenge or even a business outcome it's just
all over the place so I believe the solution is somewhere in between where you have some kind of framework where you understand generally speaking at this point in the conversation I need to understand this and if I understand this then I can proceed to step two if I understand step two then I
can lead to step three but not until I can cover what is supposed to be sorted out for part one and part two so something like that okay that's a really good point so we don't want people just asking random questions that lead nowhere but at the same time I think unfortunately what
we're seeing too much of are leading questions would you mind explaining what that is yes a leading question is one where the question is kind of fake it's designed to elicit the response that you want to hear for example you can say where would you like to go to eat that is assuming
that you're hungry and that you want to eat with me there's two big assumptions there right so I can tell when somebody ask me that question that they're hungry and they want to eat with me otherwise they wouldn't ask and so we we can see that pretty clearly in this kind of example
but when we're in a Sal situation there are many leading questions that you'll ask that you're not even realizing that's the same thing you can ask a question like why do you think personal branding will help you a I don't know what personal branding is B I've never said a wanted personal branding
and c I think you're trying to sell me something right now so whenever we do something like that anybody who's kind of semiconscious will start to feel negative feelings about you in that moment and we we describe it as are you building Rapport or are you breaking Rapport so Rapport is like we're
in sync we're driving we see eye to eye there's a Vibe that's going on and as soon as you ask one of those questions it pulls me out and it makes me ask oh I was caught up in an illusion thought you really cared but in truth you really don't in cinema there's
this thing that's happening when you're immersed inside of a movie that you feel what the characters are feeling so if they're scared you're scared if they're excited then you're excited and when you can feel an edit it takes you out of that dreamlike sequence movies are described as the closest that you can
get to Dreaming while your eyes are open okay so it is the editor's job to cut the film in such a way that you don't even realize there hundreds of cuts being made all the time we think of it as one continuous sequence so the illusion is maintained so we're immers in the
world in conversation whether you're out on a date hang out with a friend or you're having a meeting with colleagues when you do something that breaks that you're doing that hard cut you're letting everybody know we're in a meeting want a date and I have an objective and it's not just to be
in your presence there's something else that's going on and we're very sensitive to this right now like your Spider Sense will go off it'll start to tingle like wait wait wait wait wait what's happening here oh I think you want to sell me something and if you don't know what this feels like
just look through your DMs on social media on Instagram on LinkedIn in your email your inbox to see how many of those times when you've read the thing and you know this is fake I can already tell how long is it before they get past throwing uh gratitude towards you or appreciating what
you do as they make a hard transition to by the way we've just launched a new product that we think you would love so everything else that they say before that is completely negated cu now your hand has been revealed yeah this part that I think you're describing that feeling first is the
disconnect right the cut as you're describing so as soon as the disconnect happens you're kind of Jarred out of it and then you start thinking oh something else is going on now you may think that you come to the call the buyer or the prospect comes to the call and of course it's
like what is the point of this call yeah I think we know at the end of the day we are talking to someone like this a service provider with perhaps the intent to check them out and if everything makes sense it feels good then perhaps we could proceed to working together but there's
a certain way you can go about this and unfortunately I think people are so intent on appearing not salesy they become deceptive and so then when that disconnect happens it's like oh as a buyer I'm like you have an agenda also known as an ulterior motive and then that's the problem I no
longer feel like you care about me you have my best interest at heart and of course I know you want to sell me something but again that was kind of the premise of this call unless like you cloaked it in one of those coffee chats that I get like a million requests for
yeah but it's it's unfortunate you know so there's something you've taught or you've referenced multiple times like an accusation audit and I think even at this point like an accusation audit of hey you might think that you're coming to this call and I'm about to pitch the heck out of you and I
just want you to know that that's not going to happen so you may buy yourself some Goodwill but then what happened you pitch them you burn all of that Goodwill it's like what the heck man I think you go beyond burning Goodwill you just lied that's beyond just Goodwill so for example of
saying I'll pick you up and showing up late a little bit from picking you up is might burning some Goodwill but saying I'll pick you up and going to Disneyland and totally spacing out on you you just lied you made a promise and you broke it immediately and so that's a different thing
so your level of resentment your feelings about me are going to change drastically if I tell you something and literally just a few minutes later you lie because what happens is and I really believe in this how you do anything is how you do everything so when you lied to me on the
call theoretically this is the best our relationships ever going to be we're still in the preh honeymoon phase you know it's courtship right now and if you're going to lie to me during the courtship what's going to happen when we when I give you money and I have no more leverage over you
and now you are going to do whatever so you have to be really aware of this and this is true in all relationship in life if you're dating if you're talking to a prospect don't begin the relationship on a lie because the LIE compounds itself because you have to keep lying to maintain
the original lie so somebody ask you a point blank question and we see this a lot happening because we're in a political cycle right now is when they ask a candidate a question and they try to avoid it it just seems like doesn't feel right to us like do you have a plan
I don't have a plan still working on a plan or what what are you going to do about this situation in just say like I have a plan this is what it is and be super direct and so I think there's something to learn about how we feel about others when they're evasive
or when they tell us something that we feel like is not the whole truth our feelings towards them goes way down now I want to address something cuz I want you The Listener to be able to walk away from this conversation more empowered more confident in your next sales call so what I'm
telling you is this there is an implicit agreement between buyer and seller to get on a call because buyer has a problem has money to spend seller has a solution and wants to receive the money from the buyer this is implicit so to say like I'm not going to sell you is a
strange thing you don't even need to say that because we're getting a call to see if my problem is something you can fix and if I determine if you're the right person to fix it for me people are not just jumping on these calls for the hell of it very few people have
that kind of time especially the people that you've now categorized as potential clients or buyers of services the more problems they have the more urgent that problem is the more essential it is the more likely that this is a very important call to them okay so let's let's just get rid of this
whole subterfuge this deception this chicanery that we carry that we're not going to talk about sales today cuz that's just total BS a lot of people argue with me on this and I say look if you and I are in a sales room I'm almost confident I'd clean your clock I'd wipe the
floor with you because of the way you approach it and the and the thing they argue with me about is and listen up everybody cuz I know you're listening to this you want to start the conversation with small talk that is just you setting up a smoke screen for what you really need
to talk about which is why are we having this conversation today what is on your mind what is the reason that we're on the call and if you can get to that and find out what the problem is we've done some good work together already so we don't need to talk to them
about oh how's the weather what's going on in your world how's your health it's hot today isn't it all that stuff is just delaying and stretching out the conversation from the point of which we need to talk about number one rule is respect the person in front of you and the way you
respect them is you honor the time that they've given you so to me cut the small talk out after you've done the business and if there's extra time and both parties are feeling really warm and friendly towards each other talk about all the small talk you want but now you'll have remove the
elephant in the room and that there was business to talk about we've taken care of that it's kind of like exercising in the morning or or eating proper nutrition before you have dessert you want to do the hard stuff first so that the easy stuff you don't have to feel guilty over I
agree with what you're saying even despite sometimes me opening some of the calls with small talk it kind of depends on if the other person starts that first I'm not going to be a robot and be like no no we're only talking sales so there's I think we fall into the Trap of
wanting to maintain social niceties but then giving up total control of the call you know I've seen so many messages from people saying that their calls last last like 2 hours I'm like what the heck is going on you know you and I we did a call audit for somebody he turned in
a transcript in a recording that was 90 minutes long and it wasn't even the full call and I was just like holy smokes this call could have been cut in half easily and you would have lost nothing in the first 45 minutes so it's it's an issue I think with the whole honoring
their time but I also think it's a balance because I recently did a role play with someone and I found the person said I think at least three times where I want to respect your time and so we we're not aware I think that when we keep saying the same thing over and
over it comes off disingenuous and so of course I want to work with someone who respects my time but the fact that they keep saying it makes me question them at that point so they are little things like all along the road you know these these little blips yeah well juel why don't
we do this I I want you to prove me wrong right now why don't we pretend to slip into role play when there's new business I'm the seller you're the buyer and you start off with a kind of social pleasantry social nicity if you will and let me see how I would respond
to that okay so this is not scripted everybody I have no idea what juul's going to say and juel doesn't even know what she's going to say until right now and so let's see how this would go and see if she feels after we have this little part how she feels so play
along everybody just pretend like you're one of the two of us like either you're the buyer or the seller and in this case I'm the seller and juul's the buyer all right you ready I'm I think I'm ready all right oh my God Chris I'm such a huge fan I've been following your
YouTube channel for eight years and I loved that last video you did wow that's super flattering I'm so glad we're having this conversation just out of C curiosity what was that last video you were referring to it's it's the video where you were talking about impostor syndrome you know I feel a lot
of impostor syndrome and I just the way you said that it it hit me like I watched that video like three times it man how do you come up with these ideas so is that video related to the reason why we're having this call today juel oh well I I guess in a
way you could say that you know um I find myself looking for some business coaching and I feel like I have some imposter syndrome okay I'd like to ask for your permission to run the agenda for this call I find that when I do we can cover a lot of ground together not
waste a lot of each other's time and then time permitting and you willing we can talk about whatever the heck you want is that okay yeah that sounds good okay so the first thing I like to do is time box this conversation and I don't want to feel rushed at the end not
knowing when you have to leave so we've scheduled 30 minutes to talk together today is that still the case yeah that sounds right okay and if we need a little bit more time is there flexibility or is there a hard out at 30 there's there's a hard out okay perfect so if you
don't mind I'm going to ask you a few questions and if I feel like we're straying a little bit from what I need to know to help you then I'm I'm going to ask for your permission to kind of just cut in is that okay yeah I guess so okay I know I
noticed some hesitation there uh do you do you have some reservations about me cutting you off you know I I don't think so um I think now I'm starting to worry that I might ramble too much okay don't worry I wouldn't consider it rambling I just think a lot of times clients have
so much that they want to share that in doing so to try to like fill in the complete picture it's actually for someone to like it'll fry my circuits if you will my circuits will short out but I know in in previous cases with the hundreds of clients I've talked to in the
past often times if you just follow my lead we're going to actually cover a lot of ground you're going to learn a lot about what it is that you want and potentially the things that stand in your way is that okay yeah that sounds really good okay fantastic end scene okay now juel
I fully gave you permission to dissect that a thousand different ways I'm sure you will let me know how you're feeling talk about what you responded to or what you didn't respond to or if anything that I unintentionally missed in in our conversation fudge man this this might be one of the times
where I have nothing to offer you here in terms of what I would change the first point that I noticed is when you know I was being the overly excited fan which I know you get all the time and when I said imposter syndrome and that I've watched this video you're like what
video and I was like perfect and then when I kept going on and I asked you hey how did you come up with these ideas the pivot it was so good you're like is that related to why you're on the call today and I was like oh shizel that was so good I
I'm taking notes right here and then asking permission to time box the conversation double-checking whether we still have the 30 minutes is that a hard stop or can we go over a little bit that was perfect because I think a lot of times what happens with people is they don't ever do those
checks right right like they look at the time and then even when time approaches You've Got 5 minutes left they still don't say anything hey we've only got 5 minutes left are we still going on time or do you have to go yeah but the fact that you asked about it from the
GetGo is so much better because now you know this is how much time you actually have so let's use it wisely the other point where of course I threw this in a little intentionally with the well gosh I don't want to ramble like I maybe I'm too much which I also hear a
ton from the creatives you were really good good first you dispel the notion that I'm rambling you're like I wouldn't call it rambling you know this is just what it is and I like to keep things time boxed and then you said it's for your own benefit because your circuits get fried so
that takes the load off of me from feeling like I'm too much or I'm somehow you know like extra so that was really good and I'm like gosh that was expert right like we don't want people to say you do this you do this it's I feel this it's because I get like
this and then you're not blaming or accusing the other people which we unfortunately see in a lot of our role plays and then the last thing you picked up on my hesitation you're like is that okay if I sometimes cut in and I was like oh I I I guess so and you're
like what what's going on there so seriously man I got nothing to change cuz that was so good well thank you thanks for playing along with me now I'm going to tell our audience here some of the Strategic things that I was doing okay cuz my mind is like a little mini computer
I'm like d d d d input output input output and I'm just figuring things out the first thing that you said was oh I'm a fan and I was watching this video on impostor syndrome let me break that part down when someone is gushing about you you need to learn how to accept
a compliment like oh my God that's so flattering because otherwise a lot of us aren't comfortable with receiving uh compliments and so we sweep it around of the rug so the other person's like huh I wonder if you heard what I said because you express yourself in a moment of vulnerability by saying
I'm a fan it's not easy for people to say that so to not to acknowledge that for them either one they're going to feel really bad or embarrassed or number two they're going to feel like they need to say it again so you can hear it notice like when you're in a relationship
with somebody and you're getting into an argument the first time you say it's like really Pleasant the person doesn't respond and I'm guilty of this in my real life so honey if you're listening I'm sorry then show amp up the volume and the veracity of what she's saying to a point in which
I'm like oh my God you just dropped a nuclear bomb on my head I was just like watching TV what happened she doesn't know it but what's happened is she said it four different ways to get it through my thick skull but I couldn't hear it so she's going to have to escalate
I'm going to hold myself back and not ask for like specific examples but I'm so dying to know some of these you know she said it four different ways yeah we'll have to we'll have to punt that for another call right for an episode of unfiltered yeah yeah but in this context when
someone offers you a compliment I think what we don't realize so many of us come from cultures of having it been raised to be quote unquote humble which I'm like unfortunately your idea of humble is probably off and so we have this automatic habit of downplaying or even rejecting or dismissing what they
just said we don't realize they've just offered us a gift so imagine if you were to physically offer someone a gift and they just swatted it out of your hands how would you feel disrespected is how I would feel yeah fine last time I give you a gift and that's not a way
we want to hold our relationships the next thing you said was I was just watching one of your videos on imposter syndrome I'm pretty sure I know which one you're talking about but that is not how I want to operate so I'll ask you which one and so again this is demonstrating one
of the eight Elemental skills of conversational selling which will go much more in depth during the workshops is evidence-based followup so I feel like you the client are expressing things that are really important to you and I want to demonstrate full value listening so every little thing that you say I'm a fan
you're gushing a video about impostor that you watched recently so you've given me two juicy pieces of information one quickly acknowledged number two which one was that now what's happening here and you can tell me was different in your mind juel is all of a sudden you're whoa whoa I need to be
a little bit more intentional on how I'm communicating cuz Chris is going to pick up on everything that I say so now you're like okay it was this video and then the follow-up question was is this the reason why we're having a call today does it is any relation to that cuz otherwise
you're going to this is subconsciously start to edit out things that are not relevant cuz you're going to realize really quickly Chris is really listening so if I tell him about a ham sandwich I ate earlier it should have a point to this conversation so I'm slowly kind of leading and pacing or
pacing and leading so it's like okay we're going to have a very constructive productive conversation together and I'm not going to be sitting here wasting any of your time so rather than said I respect your time this call is important to me I demonstrate that versus talk about it so do not say
okay that actually triggered a memory it was over so quickly that I didn't remember it right after we ended the scene but that moment when you asked me which video was it it's something I actually ask a lot of people when they come to me and they're like I heard you on this
podcast or I saw this post I will ask which post which podcast episode but it was so interesting having you ask me the same question because I've never been on the receiving end and I had this moment of startlement like for like a brief second I felt a little put on the spot
but then it made me think immediately right after that is oh this guy actually is paying attention like he cares like he's not just fluff is coming out of his mouth that was the General sense that I had at that moment that's good so I felt that you were a little startled too
to be honest cuz whenever I somebody says oh I love this book on something I'm like oh which book was that then like NOS now I have to be accountable for the things I say this happens all the time to my friends right friends it's just how I am I'm sorry I live
as if what you're saying is important to me and so this is why I think social situations for me are completely like just it fries me out I'm so tired because people are just saying and spewing out nonsensical stuff because they just want to kill the dead air they want to fill all
the gaps in silence and for me it's like if it's not important to say just be quiet it's okay if we just stare at each other for a little bit or if we nurse our drink it's totally okay and that's in fact it's more comfortable for me to do that than to be
in constant dialogue either receiving or sh sharing information so when I ask you about that video and you're like blah blah blah okay great now I know and then of course the next thing I got to do is say I wonder if there's a reason why you're sharing that with me is it
connected to our call today and again a little hesitation on your part and then you got me well basically what the strategy here is the way I look at it is we're on a road and maybe it's two or three lanes it's not infinite maybe two lanes and I have to put up
the guard rail so our vehicle the conversation doesn't Caren off the road it's on an off-road vehicle I want to keep it on the road and it's maybe dangerous to go off to the side so what I do is when I feel like the conversation is going Offroad off track I bring it
back to on track and I try to do that in the most gentle way possible and sometimes I have to do it a little bit more direct now all of this in case you're picking up on this is very consent-based conversation it's very permission based may I be able to control the agenda
can I time box this are you okay with if I interrupt you so I'm getting a lot of little ments with you and if you're not okay then I'll figure out a different way but when you start to feel this and hopefully you feel this what juel was talking about earlier in our
conversation is sometimes the conversation feels like you're being wrapped up in a warm blanket and what's happening strategically is a couple different things number one is and I learned this from my family therapists children feel safe when they know someone's in charge CU when no one's in charge they feel really unsafe and
this has been proven throughout my personal life every time we go on a quote unquote dangerous Adventure they often times do not run to Mom they just run to dad even though sometimes I'm a jerk because they know Commander says go we go we are safe Commander says stop we stop we're safe
Commander says stay over here while I check out the danger ahead cuz something is dangerous ahead and they feel safe so in a call the client is not your child they can't be talked to in the same commanding voice but they still need to know this is not your first rodeo you understand
how to talk to prospects like me and I feel more confident and safe that someone's leading this thing because clearly if I knew what I was doing I would not hire you I would not be on this call so that's what we do so I'm asking for your permission to at least to
take control of the wheel for a little bit you know what it is that I'm thinking through this one sentence interchange between us yes there's permission in your entire demeanor and it's not permission as in you're submissive it's more gracious like we're in this space together let's do this dance I'm going to
do my best and I'll step on your toes and I'm going to let you lead where it makes sense is it okay if I lead sometimes and so it's a very respectful acknowledgement which that's the energy that I think everyone should come to every call with but there is something a little bit
beyond if you don't mind me sharing like my experience what made that one sentence where you said something like I think I know what video you're talking about or you know impostor syndrome and you said is that related to why you're coming to the call today there's a connection to what I just
said so what I find with a lot of people is there's too many abrupt turns in the conversation so if we think about it like threads or or even like a game in tennis actually that might be a little bit better so in my mind I'm seeing a conversation like a game of
tennis you hit the ball over there they hit it back and you hit it back again but what happens with a lot of these conversations is I think most people had I said yeah I saw this video they would either have fallen down that trap of oh yeah you know I I produce
a lot of videos they would have answered my actual question of how do you come up with these ideas oh you know I have a Content team or here's my content strategy I got content pillars blah blah blah blah blah or they would have been like yeah that's great um let's save that
for another time what brings you to the call today and that also would have been a little bit abrupt because again you would not have acknowledged that I'm such a fan right again it's a gift so your turn was like especially smooth there because you had a connection you echoed a little bit
of what I said you said I know that video and then is there a relation between impostor syndrome and why you're coming to the call that's what made that so smooth you were still picking up on the same thread but still guiding the thread a little bit in a different direction that was
that was really good do you know who the Wolf of Wall Street is Jordan Belfor he tells a story in his sales program that I I caught a video somewhere and I was watching it and he said I was out to to buy a BMW or something he went to the BMW dealership
he's like I want to buy that car and the guy's like well let me show you around show me the features and he goes I'm out so he goes to the Mercedes dealership and goes in Mercedes dealership and says I want to buy that car and the guy say okay let's do the
paperwork he's like finally okay we're going to do this and then he made a comment on the photograph and the oh I see your son plays baseball so he stops doing the paperwork starts talking about baseball like oh yeah we're in the leagues and we do this and I'm I'm like a part-time
assistant coach and he goes I'm done he just leaves the the showroom finally goes to a Porsche dealership and says I want to buy that car they do the paperwork he buys the car and leaves he goes you don't understand when somebody's ready to buy keep the conversation focused and don't go past
the sale so we can get distracted so the Trap I could have fallen down juel which you kind of highlighted which is oh I love this video I'm like oh yeah you know that video yeah I made that in 2014 I didn't think anybody's going to like it and you're like okay so
now it's gone off the rails I deliberately took the wheel and cared it right off the rails and now we're going down to 30 degree descent and we don't know what's going on and it's really bumpy right now the whole time I would suspect depending on who it is even though they might
admit it to you is when do we talk about business when do we talk about sales when do we talk about solving my problem which is why I've given you so little of my precious time and that's a problem and a lot of people fall down that trap so I just want to
warn some folks when I think about why we fall down those traps you know some of it is connection based it's like oh we feel really good somebody said something great about our content or something that we produced or created but then if you sit there and you ask yourself why were you
so quick to actually take the bait it's usually because of some desire to feel like you're worth something right to prove prove your worth and this is I think the Fine Line what causes a lot of weird energy on our sales calls or the role plays that we've seen is many of the
people we've worked with are depending on that buyer or that Prospect to prove their Worth to them and so this is where a lot of the calls like literally if you look at your calls if you have run them through something like otter or any transcription service and you look at the percent
of time you're talking if you are talking more than 50% of the time you are probably in this space and unfortunately a lot of the people that I've reviewed their calls they're actually talking 70 80 85% of the time you're definitely in that space if that's you if you're talking so freaking much
I would suggest people follow the 8020 rule for the 80% of the conversation you should be talking 20% at a time and towards the 20% the latter part you could be talking 80% at a time because now it's time for you to connect all the dots and let the clients know you've been
listening and you've identified a few things for them with them and it's important that you of end the conversation that place so that they know like oh there was a reason why you asked all these questions it should be a self-evident to them but in case they're a little dense or they're not
following along because they're overwhelmed with the things that you're talking about that that's very helpful now so I would caution anybody who's going to spend more than the first 80% of the call talking more than 20% of the time there's some framing there's some setting up but after that you should just ask
a question and shut up there's no need for you to to keep going on because when your mouth is moving you're not learning anything so I said may I have your per perion to set the agenda for the call this is the first time I'm asking you for permission to lead and if
you said yes and most people do say yes in fact whenever I've asked that question no one's ever said no and so now I'm setting up that if I were to interrupt you or if I'm pushing things along it's because you told me you literally only have 30 minutes and you have a
hard out that allows me to say okay anytime that juel pulls this conversation out I have permission from her to say okay I'd love to hear more about that but I I would like to redirect you here because I think we're really close to putting our finger on what the problem is and
you're like of course I can remind you of that and here's what happens a lot of times if you do this the right way juel told me she's has a heart out at 30 people will say that because they don't want to go past the 30 minute mark But I find that a
lot of times when we're really in deep and it's getting real good and juicy yeah Chris you have as much time as you want and that's a really affirming thing I will still respect the 30 minute time limit but to know that she has gone against her own word to say like you
have more time means you're definitely in Rapport and that she finds value in the conversation this is a good sign I'm smiling because this just happened to me yesterday this person told me they had a heart out they only had 40 minutes and then I looked at the phone I'm like wait a
minute it's already like 50 something minutes I was like I I thought you had a you had to be you know going she's like yeah push the meeting that's a positive vote for you like literally in the background they're texting their assistant whoever I'm running late push the meeting by 20 minutes or
whatever because they find this to be very valuable so the likelihood of you at least being seriously considered for the gig the job or whatever it is it's very very high now the principles that we're talking about here shouldn't sound foreign to you because in theory if you have meaningful relationships in your
life with friends with partners with colleagues with lovers or a spouse then you're already doing this all the time you're listening intently you're asking Fallout questions you're asking for permission sometimes you lead sometimes you follow now we're using a lot more guidance here because often times in our normal relationships we have many
opportunities to F it up and that's totally okay that's just part of the sloppiness of life but when you're on a new business call you have to show up and be on point you have to be the best conversationalist you've ever been when you put in that kind of context hopefully right now
you're listening to this and thinking to yourself I've been approaching the sales conversation completely wrong and if that's the case I have good news for you because that means your opportunity to grow is really high I've said this before and I really believe this in my heart which is life would be really
boring if I thought I reached the terminal station of whatever it is I wanted to learn like people who get a black belt want to get a second degree black belt a third degree black belt or some other version or they incorporate a different martial art because for me learning is life so
don't fret everybody the fact that you now become aware of some of the things that you're deficient in means that you now have the capacity to learn that thing and every little thing that you learn and apply towards new business development means that you increase the percentages of you closing a client hopefully
for more money and with less stress if I know the audience half as well as I think I do I think the one phrase you said where you need to be the best conversationalist you need to be like in that first conversation probably a lot of people had a moment of freak out
right there and I want to dial it back cuz I'm like no no no you got to listen to what Chris said after because it's a freaking exciting time to be you think of this like you losing weight at the gym when's the period you lose the most weight it's in that beginning
phase because it is so easy to get that lift there's so much out there so many low hanging fruit that if you if you even grab like three of them you wouldd improve probably by 50% think about that phrase it's an exciting time to be you because it's so easy to grow where
you're at from and then it only gets better from there it only gets better I promise the whole point of us slipping into roleplay was to see if it's necessary for small talk or not and to see if my ability to move it away from small talk to the part of the conversation
made you feel like it was offputting to you cuz people argue with me all the time small talk is necessary into degree it is there's a way to do it so that you can gently transition from one moment to the next and now speaking of transitions it's one of the most important things
that I've learned in my life is transitions so when I create a moving image I'm trying to avoid that moment when I take you out of the sequence right so I create a transition when I'm raising my children and we're trying to move from activity to activity like for example playing with Legos
to time to brush your teeth I'm trying to create a transition so that that isn't so jarring and when I'm in a sales conversation or writing an article as I talk about one thing and then I want you to think about something else that transition is really really important I give you an
example cuz I saw it on my phone early this morning I saw a post from Alex heroi and he wrote it's only been less than 1 month since president candidate Trump was shot there was an attempt made on his life there's been two news cycles for a rather significant event and now no
one is talking about that event anymore he goes when something bad happens to you just give it a beat no one will remember either so it was really interesting how he took a political event I was like where's Alex going with this he transitioned it to a business concept that you might be
going through some bad stuff you might have effed up on some gig just give it a beat no one will remember and you'll be okay so that was a beautiful transition so when we're on the sales call juel or the prospect may bring up certain things that uh oh it's veering off track
here I'm going to figure out how to transition back so that the guard rails go up so we're staying on track I think that's a really key skill we've done like so many calls in this summer like even before we did the six-part webinar series that's now up on your YouTube channel we
we already done like four calls before that so that's crazy if you think about it like how we got here right now is we've done at least 10 calls on sales like just this year and having the transition like being able to smooth the conversation the flow is a really valuable skill and
so in my mind you know when I go back to the game of tennis it's like you want to hit the same ball back and forth or you want to end the game but what happens a lot of the times is you're both hitting separate balls at each other it's like what are
you doing then you're not playing a game together you're you're just there on the court and that's when the person starts to feel like their time is wasted out of all the skills that we've kind of Taken people through on the role plays which skill would you consider the hardest to master there
are actually two skills cuz there are two sides of of one coin the ability to ask a question that is open-ended yet strategic and the ability to listen to the response CU if you can learn how to hear then you can learn how to ask the next question so if you ask a
really good question which we can all learn cuz you can memorize a couple of them that will usually get you through any kind of tough moment but then your ability to listen is demonstrated by the follow-up question that's why element number three of the eight Elemental skills of conversational selling is evidence-based follow-up
that's number three on the list it's not in any particular order right so I need to be able to listen to you and I want to clarify something for people because they're like wait wait wait wait you mean transitions are the skill yeah there are skill well haven't we done this before Chris
I'm like no you haven't and here's how I know client is talking about a problem or getting somewhere and then you transition to by the way you need personal branding that is not the transition I'm talking about the transition is get them back on track so they can identify the real problem which
happens to be number one on the list what is the real problem and I need to keep asking questions till I understand the problem then once I understand the problem or the the desired outcome that you want I can move on to the next thing that's the track that I'm on what's the
problem what's the challenge what would this mean for you and when I figure that's out pretty much you're going to sell yourself to me you'll say this sounds wonderful how do we get started what does it cost and then I get to talk about whatever package I may or may not have for
you so the transition isn't to get to the point that you want but to understand the whole point of the conversation which is the problem The Challenge and why you're doing this in the first place I'm really glad you're saying this because I'm having an immediate flashback to one of the role plays
I did recently and the person told me she was sitting there thinking when do I I get to tell her about my packages I'm like as the buyer and this is in the debrief after the roleplay I was like as the buyer when you got to that point I was like why is
she talking about her packages I still don't know what I'm getting what's my problem like what's in my way like you've answered none of the major questions and yet here you are talking about your packages I'm like stop talking like I want to hang up the phone right now I just got back
from an amazing epic fishing trip that I wish you were there for I'm often to make fishing analogies to show you the absurdity of what you're doing okay cuz we're like like in our process is how we do things and we think oh no no this totally makes sense all right when you're
talking about your packages you're pricing how it's going to work the scheduling the benchmarks milestones and all that kind of stuff it's like you in the boat with the net ready to go that's you ready to talk about your offer right the problem is our lines aren't in the water we don't even
know if there are fish here and there's nothing on our line so if you want to stand like an idiot with the net out at the ready while we're still out in the water kind of getting to the fishing grounds then that's on you cuz you like to hold things up it's not
until that you actually have a fish on the line that you've set the hook that you've played the fish that means the the fish is tired out and it's saying to you I'm ready to come in the boat that then you get the net and it does so in a very specific way
salmon Point towards the boat when they're tired when their face is not pointing towards the boat they're not ready to be brought in and that's you again with that net trying to swat at that fish and this is how more fish are lost and I got to witness some of that with my
friends the fish was still splashing the water trying to make a run somebody gets a net out and then they fumble it once again and the fish is gone that's you too eager too desperate and I tell people this cuz and this men are more guilty of this in the fishing boat and
then you can draw its own conclusion in the real world is like I'm a big strong muscular man I have long arms I'm athletic I used to play college ball right something like that so when this fish is near I'm not going to risk losing the fish for my my fishing partner so
they sit there and they swat at it what they don't realize is when that net comes into contact with water two things happens it freaks the fish out cuz it's not it's seeing something come in it knows it's a predator it's going to freak the F out number two what you don't realize
is when the net hits the water there's friction and resistance it's not swatting in the middle of air so you hit it with certain velocity and immediately like you know how like people dive there's a splash and it slows the thing down so people don't anticipate that they keep telling themselves I'm going
to bring this fish in and what happens more often than not fish is gone heartbreak all you get to have is to tell the story at Camp about the one that got away that you almost bagged a fish and this happens all the time so what's the answer then to the fishing part
or or to the sales conversation I mean the fishing or the sales you're using this as a metaphor yeah I am right so you play the fish the fish is tired and at some point it say you are the better person I'm ready to come in the boat when it points his face
towards the boat it is ready at this point it's not going anywhere and you got a good hook in there and you lower the net and you swoop it out one move and when you do it the right way it's actually pretty easy and it's almost foolproof I've missed a couple times but
very rarely have I ever caused someone to lose their fish because I'm patient I'm like you got this I believe in you I'm not putting this net in until I know that the fish is ready so the person who's fishing sometimes they start to panic like net it net it right now you
know they're not playing the game and they don't have the confidence that the tension that they created will keep the fish on the line so now in real life when you're talking to the prospect by asking them questions helping them to understand the problem the challenges stand in their way you've hooked the
fish you're bringing them in and you play it nice and slow every time you ask an evidence-based follow-up question and you and you get them to clarify things and you're getting closer to the real problem it's them swimming towards the boat when they Point their most of the boat is when they say
this sounds exciting I think you've nailed it what is next how do we proceed what does this cost what are the Milestones then you know it's time to get out the net now this is where people mess up people will mess up this part all the time they're ready to buy and what
they do is they let more line out they're like no I want to play this game a little bit longer and you fumble it once again when the prospect is in the position to say I'm ready to buy you stop fishing you get the net out so two things in this image with
the fish and they point their face towards the boat right they Point their face towards you I had this feeling of ah the fish is tired they're like give me a place to rest I'm ready for this struggle to be over let me come home like give me a soft Landing place so
I think number one that's the difference it kind of reminds me of something you said like a long time ago where we don't realize because you're saying especially the men on This fishing trip let me get the net out and it's a little too soon and I don't want to risk losing this
fish that's the scarcity mindset so we don't realize that the people out there have fewer options to buy from than the reverse you have an infinite number of clients out there who you could work with but you're coming at this with this energy of scarcity like this desperation I can't let this fish
get away and that's actually what kind of kills the whole thing and it's like aren't you tired let me solve the problem for you come home when you described it as I'm ready for the struggle to be over I think that an excellent way to describe what the client or the prospect feels
in which I've been having an SEO problem I'm having a conversion problem I'm having a design problem or branding problem a marketing and messaging problem I don't want to struggle anymore and if you're the person I'll swim right to the boat and believe it or not unless it's a really really big gig
10 minutes is all you need you don't need 30 minutes to talk to them it's a 10-minute fight if you will now the way we we end the struggle is we bonked a fish in the head and bleed its Gill but that's a different story I know that's kind of too too much
for people to hear why you got to go there why did you because when you're like jeel you're killing the fish and it's I just want to be there to keep it real real so typical Chris right here got to get all the graphic violent oh my God that second part of what
you said that people will make the mistake when the buyer is ready right but then you let out more line I have had people tell me that they were like I don't know what the f happened like they were the buyer and they're like just shut up and stop talking like I'm ready
to give you my money and the person kept asking more questions and kept putting them through more hoops and they actually unsold themselves I'm like oh no what happened it happens a lot actually when they're ready to come in and this has happened in professional places by professional people people I've employed before
where they go past a sale because if the whole point of the conversation is do you have a problem I can solve is it an important and Urgent problem that needs solving and if I'm the right person then that's what we got to when we get to that point we should not be
inventing new problems to talk about we got exactly what we thought we came to this call for and believe it or not and I don't want to get into it but people go past the sale all the time all the time now in your real life this happens like when when your child
is developing an argument or a debate and all the reasons why you should let them do something that they think that you won't let them do like go to a party or buy something expensive and they're building up in their mind how this conversation supposed to go and they come to you it's
like Dad can I buy this thing it's it's cost for whatever 100 bucks I'm like yeah but you know I really need this thing and they keep talking and talking I said I already said yeah and they keep talking and talking I said if you say one more thing I'll change my mind
now that's with my own child a person I brought into this world a person I love more than my own life that I'm willing to say that to you imagine if it was a prospect and you just kept doing that they're like you know what it's going to be miserable working with you
never mind and this happens you're like this will never happen to me I guarantee you you've done this if not you someone on your team has done this when people say to me I want to book you for the speaking gig we're going to pay you whatever you want I don't ask them
like what are the terms it's like they already said we'll do whatever you want the rest of it can be negotiated but right now it's about taking the deposit and booking the gig and that's what you're trying to do everybody I'm laughing though cuz I had a call this morning with someone where
he was like trying to convince me to do something and I was like okay and then he kept explaining kept explaining and I was like dude I already did it did you not see like I I literally implemented it right in front of you cuz the screen was shared it's like stop talking
for the love of God so there's something that I shared in a roleplay practice with somebody recently I was like you got to be careful like watch out for that tendency to overe explain and to keep talking it's like why are you doing that and in today's day and age this is not
the same as like when you and I were growing up like 30 years ago we are inundated with so much communication and so much media on so many different platforms and channels we have Facebook we have Tik Tok there's a LinkedIn you get like a thousand emails per week we don't realize that
the longer and longer we keep speaking at somebody they just tune us out so it's likely they're not even listening to you and sometimes like this is going to sound awful for me but I had a coaching client sometimes when he just goes off and I've already given him like the answer and
he's just keeps talking I'm like blah blah blah blah blah I've tuned him out and he he was like yeah like what do you think and I was like I don't know dude I stopped listening and he just bust out laughing it's keep that in mind there was a point three that I
think you wanted to make on this the point was Chris I didn't realize how an amazing fisherman you are that was the third feeling jeel no joke what are you talking about you why are you laughing oh my Lord yeah well at least on your trip you're the expert fisherman for sure don't
say that that's insulting to me at least on your trip how how dare you dismiss my angling abilities oh my God no no no for real for real though if any of you ever go on This fishing trip with Chris and I'm probably going to be on this olay's fishing trip next year
probably I I okay he see he's going hardcore here he's just like Mark Manson there's no trying just do yes I will be at the fishing trip next year but if you come to this fishing trip just be prepared Chris is like the Wikipedia of how to fish on this trip he will
tell you all the little tricks and the Nicks and crannies and he'll tell you to bring like a throwaway nail clipper so you can have a quick way to release the line so many tips it's it's going to be fun you know what the people who listen to me they thank me I
got the Clipper it's ready to go and they were able to cut the line so fast versus go racing in the box for a knife so here's the thing and maybe this is kind of where we end the conversation here today which is there are people who have experienced the things that you
want to experience who've done the things that you hope to do one day so when you have an experienced guide whether on fishing or in sales or in branding or Identity Design pick someone and then trust them and just follow the process the theme for next year and we talk about this is
I'm going to make sure it's for everybody it's going to say trust and believe it's something that our friend Phil Strater loves to say all that all the time trust and believe Trust and Believe trust in the process and believe in yourself and your skills if you do those two things you're going
to have a lot of success in life and I want to memorialize the lessons that we learn in the water in the world to apply back when we're on land and doing our thing trust in the process and believe in yourself I'm going to throw something in here is at least trust us
in the process at least trust Chris and if you can at least come to the experience whatever that experience is you will have your life changed you will learn to trust and believe in yourself coming to the event and I know that sounds saly but here's the thing if you look back over
your life now and you see where you're at right now everything you have done so far has put you where you're at now so isn't it time to do something different and I have been there like I've been there like 4 years ago I felt like I could never make it as a
coach and now with the contracts that I'm landing today sometimes I look back and I'm like holy moly how did this happen this is insane a lot of it has been thanks to the guidance I've received from you the guidance I've sought out from mentor coaches the hard work I've put in into
studying coaching and studying how to talk to people understanding people but there was a point where I tried to run away from all of this I was like oh SEO is easier let me run back to what I know and what I'm comfortable with because that's easier and everything you're experiencing is totally
normal that is what we do as people it is not natural to go out and seek to do the things that are hard the things that push you out of outside of your comfort zone so if this seems hard or difficult or risky in any way just try to trust at least in
Chris or whoever that guide is for you at that moment trust show up and just let it happen and before you know it you will see things will change like today when I look at the stuff like I was just telling Chris I can't believe I woke up yesterday for a call that
was at 6:00 a.m. even 2 years ago I would have been like hell no I'm never going to that I can't sign up for that if you told me that I would start to be able to work out and maybe be able to do a pull-up I would have laugh in your face
I was that kid with the wet noodle arms in high school like they tell you to do the arm hang they lift you into position and as soon as they like go I fall like a sack of potatoes it's like that was me and yet now I'm almost there it's incredible if you
just try it out so just try it I will say this back in 1995 when I started my company the kinds of resources that were available then pale in comparison to what's available to you today this is kind of pre- Internet 1995 it's pre gooogle pre YouTube pre- webinars pre zoom and all
this kind of stuff and so I had to struggle in the best way that I could and reach out to people the oldfashioned way pick up the phone and call someone and say hey how are you doing your sales thing can you help me and I struggled to find someone who knew what
they were talking about who's willing to spend time sharing with me what it is they knew how to do so unfortunately no one was able to do it and so I just struggled through that whole process and I I keep thinking back how much work and money did I leave on the table
and something I learned from a mentor a while back is he said that when the iron is hot you must strike because good times don't last forever and I didn't really heat his warning cuz we were in the boom time in the early 2000s making just hand over fist just tripping on piles
of money the most money the most profitable I've ever been in my life running like jobs that were 85% net profit margins which is bananas and I assume these times will last forever and they didn't so I keep looking back and I don't live with regret first of all it's a useless emotion
but I wonder sometimes if I had a mentor a coach a guy to teach me like if I found Kier 5 years before I found him at the beginning of my business life I would have just cleaned house I might have be I might have been the Kingpin of motion design in La
who knows the only reason why I bring that up to you is you're in a different time now you have access almost to Too Much Information Amazon is available now so there's books and resources all these things and I now know what the new problem is it's overwhelming there's just too much it's
a paradox of choice you don't know which way to go and so I'm not telling you that I'm your guide to this thing just find somebody find someone that you resonate with with their style of speaking and if they've been around for a minute and if they haven't do your due diligence cuz
a lot of you get taken advantage of now for a lot of people my style of selling this this permission consent base that's LED with generosity that's low pressure that's designed for introverts just like myself it might not be the right program for you and I totally get that if it's not I'm
not your guy but I've made the intention this year to work on my teaching skills I've hired teaching coaches I've consulted with improv teachers to show me new ways of teaching things so that you get to experience it versus listening to it and those are two very different things and I'm very guilty
of this I take pride in my ability to disseminate information to take complex Concepts and distill them down to simple easy to follow things but I've not been as good as I want to be into the transference of those skills from me to you and that's the intention behind all these workshops that
I'm doing right now because I want to get it to a point when almost every single person who's willing to do the work shows up and is drastically improved from where they started from maybe they're not a sales Ninja on day one but they're vastly improved and I know you're sitting there thinking
well Chris show us the receipts and we have plenty of anecdotal evidence but there's two that I want to call attention to and so juwel if you don't mind can you share some of those with us yes of course Chris so there is somebody who texted me literally just this past Tuesday so
2 days ago and it was amazing because she said so I've had two sales calls since learning from you guys and one ended up at $60,000 I got the sale it's a $60,000 annual contract and I was like holy shizel this is crazy it's so cool and then somebody else unexpectedly sent me
a message and this is me it's not like I go around asking people like hey are your sales up but this next person who was in the pr group she said right after she did the role play with me she actually landed a 5k client like the week after and I thought this
is so great you know so there's definitely a difference I think maybe 3 years ago when I first told you I said Chris I have a hard time learning from you you're so far ahead it's like I can't grasp what you're saying like what you're saying sounds good but I cannot grasp it
like it's hard for me to actually put that into practice and now I think what we're seeing is every time we do these role plays or these sales calls I get flooded with all these messages of people saying this one thing you shared I did that and it changed everything so we're getting
messages every single time we have a call and then I forward the messages on to Chris and then I complain why don't they ever send them to me it's you man you're too scary a scary Asian Dad share with me your success I I can hear the complaints but I love hearing about
your success everybody I get to to hear about those more in person and my DMs and I'm not so good at screen capturing them so I just like oh it'll be here here when I need to find it and then 3,000 messages later I'm like who said what I can't find any of
this anymore okay now I do know this anecdotally the people who have watched a lot of our free videos on YouTube comment like literally this changed my business close this size job I'm doing $200,000 a year you help me quit my job you give me confidence and all that kind of stuff here
here's the summation of all this having money is good no doubt about it but being affirmed in the belief that you're a good person that you you bring value to the world and that the decision that you made to be this kind of gifted Misfit a term that Brian Collins shared with me
it is affirming it's a boost of confidence and you need some vitamin C you need more confidence and when you can do this and the stress starts to like fall away from your body like you're shedding that skin that's the most important thing because when you start to have that belief inside of
you this mindset that I can win any job it's just a question of if this is a good fit for both the client and for myself that's lifechanging so yeah the money will come but the money is a byproduct of your confidence going up and your ability to naturally have really great conversations
I will share this one thing there's a gentleman his name is noro and he attended our Workshop he attended the half day workshop in La I saw him Las Vegas at a conference he goes Chris the things that you teach go Way Beyond sales I'm like yeah what do you mean he goes
my my relationships my communications has improved so much because what you're talking about is how to be a better conversationalist and I'm using it everything and that to me is like music to my ears and it's it just warms my heart to be able to hear stuff like that and if this is
something you want to do you have an opportunity I don't do these workshops all the time October 12th Miami we're doing a full day workshop myself and Carlos we're the gang's getting back together and instead of rushing through it for half a day you're going to get a full day we're applying the
learnings that we got from the last time plus what I've been coached on so new exercises new ways to experience this and if that wasn't good enough juel and I are putting together a workshop in London October 29th and 30th so it's a two-day workshop one day full Deep dive with me and
then the second day a lot of like followup and like let's pull apart these exercises and really give you more hands-on experience and more coaching so that you can walk away having been transformed now I know it's crazy but we're limiting these workshops to 30 people we've already sold the third of the
tickets for London so don't hesitate everybody save your spot I'll put the link in the description below so check that out and it'll appear somewhere on the screen now I know this about entrepreneurs they know that to make money you spend money and I'm always learning every day from what I consider Thoroughbred
entrepreneurs people like Neil dingra people like jasine Star the amount of money they spend on personal development is insane to me and I keep asking myself am I an entrepreneur do I put money at risk for gain and the crazy thing about these entrepreneurs is no matter what they spend they always get
a multitude Roi back on what they spend so if you're so inclined go to the Miami workshop and then book a ticket and fly to London we'll see you there so you have two and a half days or three days with us and to me that would be transformative and you can do
that when you were sharing that story of how it's like this is affecting everything in his life and I'm like it goes back to that thing you were saying how you do one thing is how you do everything so you learn what you think are just sales skills or what you think are
just business skills and it's actually a cascading like a domino effect so you start at any point in your life and there is stuff to gain no matter what so you talking about like these entrepreneurs investing in themselves I'm like of course it's like I'm the person who shows up and I'm going
to get what I came for and it may not necessarily be what I thought I was going to get but I'm going to get what I came for and more and it's that at more part it's beyond what I ever expected if you look at me 3 years ago I don't even know
how much you remember me of 3 years ago but you you and I have known each other for about 3 years and I remember being really stuck in this place of I don't believe in myself I don't believe I can make it as a coach who's going to listen to me and the
crazy thing is like even when people were saying yes to me on my sales calls I would then self-sabotage I would take like two weeks to send them an invoice and a contract and it's like who does that it's like bananas so the stuff you will do because you don't believe in yourself
it blows my mind I'm like you know what why don't you try letting life be easy the Fisher are tired man they're ready for the struggle to be over [Music]
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