You Don’t Sell Products. You Sell Trust.
For most creatives, the words “sales and marketing” trigger an involuntary cringe. The term evokes images of slick talkers, manipulative tactics, and a disingenuous game they want no part of. They see themselves as makers, not sellers. Artists, not pitchmen.
But what if this entire premise is wrong? What if being good at sales has nothing to do with manipulation and everything to do with radical honesty?
In a conversation with Chris Do, marketing growth hacker John Driscoll, CEO of mobile app consultancy Naked Development, dismantled this tired stereotype. Driscoll, an entrepreneur who jumped into the mobile app world on the very first day of the App Store’s existence, argues that the most potent sales skill isn’t persuasion. It’s trust.
His journey started early. As a ten-year-old in Victorville, California, a desert town where blue-collar work was the norm, Driscoll went door-to-door offering to pull weeds for money. He had a simple pitch for a clear problem. Soon, his friends wanted in, but a crucial difference emerged.
When it was time to knock on the next door, nobody else wanted to do it. “I didn't understand why,” Driscoll recalls. “I just knew that for me that was easy.”
He quickly realized he had a knack for the conversation, the part that unlocked the opportunity. Hating manual labor himself, he pivoted. He became the de facto general contractor, knocking on doors and then paying his friends to do the pulling. It was a business model born of instinct.
This early knack for simplifying complex proposals and building instant rapport became the foundation of his career. “From the weeds all the way through whatever it was I was doing, it was always about making things palatable for people,” he says.
Years later, working at a shoe store in the mall, he learned about upselling, rejection, and the power of mentorship. But the core skill was already there. When Chris Do pressed him on what made interviewing for jobs feel so easy, Driscoll’s answer cuts to the heart of his philosophy: “Take an interest in people, they will take an interest in you.”
He didn’t see it as a game to be won. He saw it as a conversation. “Really being likable is all about creating trust,” he explains. “For 20-some years, I've always said I just sell trust for a living.”
The Inner Frame: Winning Before You Walk in the Room
Most people lose the sale before they even open their mouths. The loss happens internally, in the stories they tell themselves about the meeting.
Driscoll calls this the inner frame. “It's your inner frame of how you are defining that conversation in your mind,” he says. This internal state dictates the entire interaction. If you walk in feeling desperate, needy, or inferior, you project an energy that repels opportunity.
The single biggest killer of a healthy inner frame is what Driscoll terms outcome dependency. This is the desperate need to get the job, land the client, or make the sale. It’s the voice in your head chanting, “Hopefully this goes well and I get the job.”
This neediness is toxic. “When I get into a sale, I never live and die by a single sale,” Driscoll states. “I don't live and die by whether somebody likes me. It's not going to change how I feel about myself.”
This detachment is not arrogance. It is a powerful form of self-possession. It allows you to relax, be present, and have a genuine conversation instead of performing for approval. Your focus shifts from extracting a “yes” to discovering if there is a mutual fit.
But what about when you truly are desperate? When rent is due and you haven't worked in months? The advice to simply “relax” can feel hollow. Driscoll, who acknowledges he’s been “one sale from paying the mortgage or not on many occasions,” offers a pragmatic solution.
You have to trick yourself.
“If I allow myself to sound desperate and to be desperate, I'm going to absolutely eliminate my ability to overcome this,” he explains. You must consciously adopt the mindset of someone who doesn't need the deal, even if every fiber of your being screams otherwise. It’s a mental maneuver for survival.
He likens it to dating. “The last thing you can do is let that person see any desperation whatsoever,” he says. “You have to kind of trick yourself and go and try to relax and try to be calm and be cool and act like you don't need them.”
This internal work is the foundation. It sets the stage for the conversation before the conversation even happens. Creatives who are a bundle of anxiety, neediness, and desperation change the way they talk. They become less sharp, less authentic, and less present. As Do notes, you win or lose before you even step in the room. This concept of mindset is something Do explores frequently, particularly how it relates to overcoming mental blocks like imposter syndrome.
Ask Questions, Name The Truth
With a solid inner frame, the external mechanics of sales become radically simpler. The power shifts from pitching to questioning. But this isn't about asking leading questions to trap a client in a sales funnel.
It is about genuine, relentless curiosity.
“You're not asking questions so that they feel like you'll know,” Driscoll clarifies. “You're asking questions so that you actually know and understand.” The goal is to put yourself in their shoes, to understand their business as if you owned it.
Driscoll will ask four, five, or six follow-up questions until he truly grasps the problem. He uses phrases like, “Help me break that down,” or, “Can you unpack that for me?” It’s a move born of confidence, not ignorance. It shows you care enough to get it right. This relentless pursuit of clarity is a skill Do himself champions in workshops like The Art of Listening & Communication.
This foundation of genuine understanding then gives you permission to do the single most powerful thing in any high-stakes conversation: say what you think.
This is where most professionals falter. They sense a disconnect, a bad vibe, or a misalignment, but they say nothing. They repress their observations, hoping to smooth things over. This is a fatal mistake. It creates a gap between what is felt and what is said, and that gap is where trust dies.
Driscoll advocates for naming the truth, directly and without apology.
He recalls a recent client conversation: “I'll just be genuinely honest, we weren't vibing very well,” he told the client. “I really want to have a relationship with you... The only way we're going to do that is if we really hear each other.”
He will even put the relationship on the line, suggesting, “If we can't find Common Ground, maybe we should figure out a way to unwind this relationship.”
This is not a manipulative tactic from Robert Greene's The 48 Laws of Power, though it certainly operates within the dynamics of power. It is an act of profound honesty. It tells the other person you value clarity over comfort and a good fit over a bad deal. As Do puts it, “You're not going to get it anyways,” so you might as well say what’s real.
The result is one of two things: the relationship ends cleanly, saving everyone time and misery, or the other party leans in, realizing the value of the relationship they are about to lose.
The Myth of Likability
The desire to be liked is a trap. It causes people to become evasive, indirect, and accommodating to a fault—all traits that make them profoundly unlikable in a business context.
Driscoll’s philosophy presents a paradox. The things you think will make you unlikable—directness, brutal honesty, the willingness to walk away—are the very things that build respect and admiration. Being clear is refreshing. Being direct is powerful.
Driscoll has a bar-setting line he uses with clients:
“I don't care if you like me. If you're successful, you're going to like me.”
This statement reframes the entire purpose of the engagement. His job is not to be a friend or a coddler. His job is to deliver success. The relationship is a byproduct of the result, not the other way around. This approach directly challenges the people-pleasing tendencies that hold so many creatives back, a topic also central to building a strong personal brand.
For this to work, it cannot be an act. It must be congruent with who you are. True likability comes from congruence, the state where your internal beliefs align with your external actions. “For it to be really, really believable, it kind of has to be who you are,” Driscoll says. “Is it how you deal with everyone?”
When this authentic directness becomes your default operating mode, something magical happens. The dynamic flips. You stop chasing relationships, and powerful people start coming to you.
- They appreciate your honesty.
- They respect your time.
- They see you as a peer, not a vendor.
- They trust you because you are not hiding anything.
“When you really get to a place where you're really solid on solid ground, everybody kind of comes at you,” Driscoll reflects. “You don't have to do all the hard work.” This is the force behind his company’s success. Naked Development does zero outbound marketing and hasn't for a decade. All their business, including from billionaires like Peter Thiel, comes from inbound interest.
They are attracted to the clarity, the confidence, and the undeniable truth of the brand.
The Five Client Personas: A System for Qualification
To protect this inbound flow and the team’s sanity, Driscoll’s agency developed a system for identifying and managing different types of clients. They use a set of five core personas, allowing them to quickly assess a lead’s potential and determine the appropriate way to engage.
Understanding these archetypes is critical for any service provider. You must know who you are talking to before you can decide how to talk to them. Here is the framework:
- Bob (The High Net Worth Individual): Bob is a very successful person who can fully fund his own project. He doesn't need to raise money. He is serious and values his time above all else. How to deal with Bob: “Direct and honest and short,” Driscoll advises. Use as few words as possible. Don’t waste his time with fluff. Get straight to the point.
- Tucker (The Ideal Client): Tucker has also been successful, is a bit younger and more tech-savvy than Bob, and has realistic expectations. He values what you offer, knows it will be expensive, and is deeply involved in his business. How to deal with Tucker: Invest time in educating and building a relationship. Grab lunch. They often become good friends as well as great clients.
- Monday (The High Potential): Monday has a ton of potential but lacks the resources or network of a Tucker or Bob. They are often young and hungry. How to deal with Monday: This is a long-term play. It requires a grooming process, coaching, and support. If you invest in them, they become extremely devoted and can grow into a Tucker.
- Terry (The Dreamer, Not a Doer): Terry looks and sounds like a Tucker but is all talk. They say all the right things, might exaggerate their position, and are masters of “fake it till you make it.” They are the biggest talkers and the fastest walkers. How to deal with Terry: Run. They are a massive collection risk and will waste your time. You spot a Terry by putting small, meaningful hurdles in front of them. They will quit.
- Zuma Dog (The Unqualified Lead): This person is simply wasting your time. They have wildly unrealistic expectations, no budget, and no real commitment. How to deal with Zuma Dog: Get off the call as quickly and kindly as possible. Refer them to your free content and move on.
This system of qualification is essential. It provides a shared language for the team and prevents them from wasting precious energy on the wrong people. It’s a core component of finding the right-fit customers, a strategy Do often discusses when teaching how to attract your ideal clients.
Driscoll offers an even simpler, two-category breakdown: Dreamers and Gardeners. “Dreamers are people that live in the clouds and have no idea how to execute,” he says. “Gardeners are people who live in the weeds and they have no idea how to think big.” Understanding which one you’re dealing with reveals the gap you need to fill.
How One Book Made Millions
A powerful mindset and client filters are essential, but you still need a compelling offer. A few years ago, Driscoll read a book that revolutionized his business and led to an immediate, dramatic spike in revenue: Alex Hormozi’s $100M Offers.
Reading the book, he made a quarter-million dollars in the first week. The long-term impact has been in the multi-millions.
One of Hormozi’s core tenets hit him hard: your offer must be so good that a great salesperson isn’t required. At the time, Driscoll’s company relied heavily on him to close deals. This realization sparked a thought experiment: “What if I died?” How would the company continue without him? The answer was to make the offer itself irresistible.
He implemented two key changes from the book:
1. He Added A Powerful Guarantee.
His agency’s entry-level engagement is a $20,000 discovery and design phase. Clients must sign the agreement and pay before any significant work begins. “If you're giving out free consulting, your opinion is not very valuable,” Driscoll states flatly. After reading Hormozi, he added a guarantee. Clients come in for a full-day discovery session with the team. “If they're not happy by the end of that day,” he explains, “we're willing to break the relationship and send their money back.”
He has never had to give the money back. The guarantee isn't about the money; it’s about signaling absolute confidence. It removes all risk for the client and makes the decision to engage feel safe. For anyone struggling with setting their prices and commitments, this is a masterclass in shifting from selling time to selling value, a key lesson in Do's teachings on building valuable engagements.
2. He Added Bonus Offers.
While not detailed in the discussion, this Hormozi tactic involves stacking additional value onto the core offer to make the perceived value vastly outweigh the price.
These tactical shifts, built on the foundation of a strong offer, dramatically changed their close ratio overnight. It’s a reminder that while mindset is primary, tactical execution is what translates that mindset into cash flow.
Being Naked and Unashamed
This philosophy of radical honesty and unapologetic confidence is baked directly into Driscoll’s brand identity. The name of his company, Naked Development, is intentionally provocative and deeply meaningful.
The name comes from a verse in Genesis, “naked and unashamed,” reflecting the act of creation. It embodies the company’s core belief in leanness. “When you create a product, it really comes into the world a little naked,” Driscoll says. The ethos is about stripping down ideas to their essential form and being willing to be a little embarrassed by your early versions.
The name is also a brilliant filter. Driving down the 405 freeway in Irvine, a large sign simply says “naked.” It’s memorable and jarring. It doesn't appeal to everyone, and that’s the point.
Driscoll recalls a sales call with a group in Alabama. “This is John from naked,” he said. After a confused pause, the woman on the other end replied, “You know that's not good, right?”
Driscoll just smiles at these reactions. “I'm just not uptight about it, and I really don't care if you like it,” he says. The people who are put off by the name were never his clients anyway. The ones who are drawn to its edginess and confidence are precisely the people he wants to work with. “We gain more than we ever lost, for sure.”
It’s the ultimate expression of his philosophy. Be who you are. Say what you think. Build your business in a way that is so authentic to you that the right people can’t help but be attracted to it.
When Do asked him for the advice he’d give his 20-year-old self, the message was clear and direct. “Stop caring about outcomes and start caring about the quality of the person that you are,” Driscoll says. “Keep building and investing in you, and the rest will take care of itself.”
That investment means reading books, hitting the gym, and doing the work required to become a person of value. He compares it to golf. You can’t expect to hit the ball well if you haven't been to the range in six months.
You can’t expect to close the deal if you haven’t invested in your own inner frame. The sale is simply a reflection of the trust you’ve earned, first with yourself, and then with your client.
TRANSCRIPT
stop caring about outcomes your inbound marketing must be very good for petor teal to find his way into your thing I said this is John from naked and she goes you know that's not good right that's not why I'm here I'm here for your success I don't care if you like me is
if you're successful you're going to like me if you're giving out free Consulting your your opinions not very valuable so I kind of like in my mind went what if I die that will change your sales game John for people who don't know who you are can you please introduce yourself and tell
us a little bit about your story sure yeah know happy to do that Chris um you know I'm my name is John Driscoll I'm the CEO and co-founder of naked development we are a mobile app consultancy sometimes people call us an agency I guess in our world and we are in Irvine California
we I've been an entrepreneur for 25 years uh this is my second go um I exited my first one in um ' 06 and it was a financial services I kind of got here because I was good at Marketing in sales in that world and got into that and then I March 6
2008 I started you know looking at mobile apps uh that was the first day of the App Store and jumped in the first day and I've been in that game ever since wow that's super cool you're an early adopter of apps uh I was the of the earliest adopters yeah day one I
did a little background research and I listened to a podcast that my team shared with me so there's some interesting things about your childhood growing up W on chist and things like that we won't go too far into that I know podcast you listen to now so my question for you is this
is for a lot of the creative people that are probably more identified as introvert than extrovert hearing somebody like like I'm good at sales and marketing that's like an anomaly for us it's like you're a unicorn traing through the the field I'm curious about your childhood or anything that happened while growing up
that was a clue as to the person that was going to be good at sales and marketing do you have any stories of like when you're were younger when you exhibited the earliest signs of your ability to sell yeah so I think one of the stories I I had told pretty recently I
was out um you know essentially trying to earn money in my neighborhood I kind of grew up in a an area where people didn't have a lot of money and it was in the desert and so uh what I had done is I actually would go door Todo and ask people if I
could pull their weeds I'm I'm maybe you know 10 12 years old Max here at this point so I would just do that pull the weeds and then get paid well I my buddies wanted to do it with me and I was the one that kind of went to the door first and
convinced the people to pay us to pull weeds and so we finished that first house and then when it was time to go to the second one I was kind of like okay it's your turn to go the the door and nobody wanted to do it I didn't understand why I just knew
that for me that was easy and so I started going to the doors and they agreed to just pull the weeds and and I hated manual labor and everybody around me were blueco collar workers growing up my dad was a blue collar worker and I started going door too and then I I
just got smart and I started paying them as opposed to letting the customer pay them and so I kind of became a general contractor at age 11 yeah I was you know there was so many instances like that that I had experienced um and my parents always thought I'd be a lawyer or
a teacher I would say the teacher part was probably right do you remember what your pitch was like when you knocked on that door cuz it's hard for me to imagine a 10 year like now that was that was a long time ago uh I I think it was you know something along
the lines of hi mister I really appreciate your time um I am going door too and I noticed you had some weeds in your front yard is there uh is there a chance that you might want to pay us to take care of that for you today something along those lines okay and
uh you know I definitely had that elevator kind of pitched down you know let's do it quick I think one of the things that has sparked my ability from being a kid and being now and it's still true now is I like to sum up things and make them simple for people um
and being in technology that is a massive Advantage because people really hate dealing with technology people because they can't do that you know from the weeds all the way through you know whatever it was I was doing it was always about making things palatable for people you know and I think those conversations
still happen every day today you found a simple problem to solve you gave a pretty straightforward pitch and it was a I I think it's a no-brainer offer you know unless you charge too much to do it it's like yes I have weeds it's a pain in ass especially for older people like
bending down and pulling those things out yeah it was it was a nice way to make a living as a kid was this in Victorville yeah yeah I was Victor oddly enough one of my neighbors was that I grew up with was Cuba Gooding Jr and uh he didn't want to pull weeds
but you know he was one of the neighborhood kids that I grew up with up there oh wow yeah okay take us to the next instance where you're exhibiting these management entrepreneurial sales or marketing skills take us to the next thing where you like okay it's starting to become clear to me this
is how I'm going to spend some of my life when I got to high school you know I I started to try to get normal jobs and I kind of hated it you know like I wash dishes and things like that I found interviewing to get jobs was easy for me because I
could convince them to hire me that wasn't a problem so then I got the offer to sell shoes in the mall that was such an awesome experience cuz I worked with a lot older men who kind of mentored me I learned how to tie a tie my my dad you know didn't show
me how to do that was it was a guy that I worked with you know cuz I I like showed up with my tie I'm like I don't know how to do this so I uh you know I worked in the mall at Kenny shoes in Victorville Victorville mall I learned how to
upsell people and learned how to um deal with rejection you know which is such a part of sales um and I learned how to really work hard I think along the lines of my uh my boss John who's just this old guy and he just was just a great guy to learn next
to learn how to sell and he'd been selling for 30s something years and I think the mentors that I got in sales growing up were such a big part of me learning what I know today I want to Circle back to the whole interviewing part you said interviewing was easy I I knew
what I needed to say to get the job that's a human skill that's a soft skill that a lot of people don't understand yeah and when they think of someone interviewing them they get really tense and nervous there are actually courses to teach people how to interview for a gig especially when you
get into the higher paid gigs that are more technical right we the famous the 10 interviews from Google or Facebook where they run you through the gamut you're like confident in and you kind of have figured out the game already right I don't think I knew I figured out the game okay like
those kinds of things came easy for me you know and it really showed me that this was something I was good at and I should keep exploring it you know and getting better at it you know um and I I just think having conversations with people if you can relax and pitch and
catch a little bit when you take an interest in people they will take an interest in you and I think um I I I got good at asking questions and really just naturally having a conversation and then you just become naturally likable I think that's the skill is really is can you ask
questions and take an interest in people and when that that is really the key to being likable for people to buy from you or whatever that is and and really being likable is all about creating trust so that people will open up to you or give you money or whatever that is that
they're trying to trust you with with technology people don't understand what they're how to do it so the only thing they can really buy is trust because they don't know what you're going to do or how you're going to do it and it's really I always say in almost for 20-some years I've
always said I just sell trust for a living you very casually Dro some very key foundational skills around sales and understanding that so I'm going to do my best to unpack them with you okay all right because our audience is like whoa wait a minute it's not that easy or or is it
maybe it is so I want to get to the tech part but we'll save that for the latter part of this conversation that I'm going to have with you because I'm fascinated by this I'm kind of thinking whether you're aware of it at the time or not but you're exhibiting some natural tendencies
interpersonal skills and I think that's what we're getting at that sales isn't this crazy thing that you manipulate or influence people against their will it's just like if you're interested in people they become interested in you and you have to have you have to learn how to have conversations and ultimately before you
can get them to trust you have to get them to like you okay so I want to get into this because I can imagine like a young man 15 16 years old working in a mall it's like this's older person interviewing you you want the gig because you want some money maybe you
didn't dream of becoming a shoe Sal salesman or maybe you did who knows you know uh but then you're sitting there in front of the person looking back on it now with the wisdom that you've gained since then what do you think was happening the interpersonal Dynamic that was between you the applicant
versus a the boss or the client and maybe I I love this because it's simple to understand and I think it's going to be super relatable for people yeah I think it starts also you know before you even walk in the room it's your inner frame of how you are defining that conversation
in your mind right you know whether it's a one-on-one conversation or getting on a stage and speaking it's all about how do you feel about the situation you're in and people often go into those things with massive expectations or what I like to call out outcome dependency and they get into those conversations
really likeing well hopefully this goes well and I get the job and I think I didn't do that as much as some people and what that does is it allows you to really relax into it you're not like I need this job I'm not going to be able to pay my bills and
my life's going to be my parents are going to hate me and you build this narrative I think it's true today when I get into a sale I never live and die by a single sale I don't live and die by whether somebody likes me I it's not going to change how I
feel about myself and that is incredibly important before you even get in the room that that sets the stage for the conversation before the conversation even happens and I I think it's important to point out that aspect of the whole thing and I think as a kid I kind of walked in and
I said you know if I if I'm me and I have this conversation this is going to go well I might not get the job whatever I'll move on I'll get a different job so the inner frame how you feel about yourself your your expectations that you're bringing to the table a lot
of times creatives will need the job so bad in their mind they have this air of desperation and it changes the way they talk they're not their natural selves are not as smart and as sharp they're not fully present because they're just thinking about getting the gig it's interesting that as a young
person you walk in there like I can get this job or I can't it's it's a shoe shells job and there's other stores or Mall in the mall sure I can go for those if this doesn't work and I love that the question I always get when I tell people relax you don't
need this yeah they have to be smart enough to figure out that you're going to give value to them by giving you money but there are people who literally like haven't worked in six or seven months and that very just harsh reality of rent and not feeling worthy how do you overcome that
because I believe what you believe the interframe is so important I think you win or lose before you even step in the room but if you're in that real State how do you overcome that do you have any tips for us John yeah and because I've I've been through that many many times
where I truly was desperate like things weren't going well you know don't don't take this interview and go hey well things have always gone as way so therefore he's never been in my situation that's not true even a little bit I've literally been one sale from paying the mortgage or not on many
occasions and I'm sitting there in that sale what you have to do is you have to kind of trick yourself a little bit mentally and say yeah but if I if I if I allow myself to sound desperate and to be desperate I'm going to absolutely eliminate my ability to overcome this you
have to kind of trick yourself in that sense because when you are desperate and I know many people are you know young people especially you know you're experiencing just a job market that I've never been in before you just have to kind of trick yourself in a sense you know and I think
that the same thing's true I always like to liken it to dating so much and maybe it's because I've been single for a long time but it's very much like that say you walk up to somebody and they're really really pretty you know the last thing you can do or the last thing
you should do is let that person see any desperation whatsoever you know and that is tricky you have to kind of trick yourself and go and try to relax and try to be calm and be cool and and act like you don't need them you have to say that to yourself you know
um even today I have a couple notes I look at before I go on a date to remind myself to do the right thing so if I really like them I don't actually blow it yeah so sorry and you're saying also I might really be attracted you but I'm not going to show
it that's the worst when you really like them or you really want the job or you really need the sale that's when you're going to be really tested and you've got to learn how to take those moments or you're jumping on a big stage and there's you know a couple thousand people and
you're going to talk to them let me tell you that's a nerve-wracking moment I always play &m so you better lose yourself a little bit one of the big shifts that I've noticed when I've learned how to do client interaction and close the sale is the power of asking questions versus thinking that
the power is in saying things or pitching and you talked about that asking questions to build trust tell us more about that please yeah I think a lot what I see and I'm I'm constantly always trying to teach our staff really how to have these conversations and it's very very difficult to teach
sometimes um that aspect of things you're not asking questions so that they feel like you'll know you're asking questions so that you actually know and understand so the question is are you genuinely trying to understand their perspective what I try to do is always put myself in their perspective I tell every client
I'm trying to help you um run the business as if I owned it that's what I'm after and so if I don't understand any I've asked four questions to understand I will ask a fifth one until I do I need to hey help me break that down those are kind of questions I
do get can you unpack that for me I need to really understand it's very similar to an interview you're really trying to understand where they're coming from so that you can find Common Ground sometimes I had a conversation last week with a customer and I just said hey you know we had this
conversation last week and I I'll just be genuinely honest we weren't vibing very well and I just told him weeren vibing very well I really want to have a relationship with you so that you can get the most out of working with me and I can get the most out of working with
you the only way we're going to do that is if we really hear each other so can I ask this question and then I'll go I'll start out like that and then I'll ask a big question and then stop and listen and really try to grasp that and and sometimes just go hey
if we can't find Common Ground maybe we should figure out a way to unwind this relationship and I'll just say that by the way that works two ways either it helps you to unwind a relationship or they're like whoa I don't want to lose this relationship and then they realize you're ready to
lose the relationship which you know if you read 48 Laws of Power means you have the upper hand I don't like the manipulation part of that stuff but it's part of power dynamics for sure a bunch of things that you've just shared it there I want to recap for our audience here is
we need to learn how to ask questions from a place of curiosity genuine curiosity because we need to know it's not a game we're playing it's not because we're leading the witness so to speak to a conclusion that we want and be brave enough to keep asking follow-up questions when you don't understand
I think I I believe you I believe you're a natural born seller and that you're very good at this because I can tell because you're saying things that I that really Vibe with the way that I also believe that you're really curious and you're asking deep follow-up questions and you're willing to label
things this is kind of really important you're willing to say I'm I'm lost here man break this down for me unpack it so there is a confidence a quiet confidence and that comes from saying things also you said maybe this isn't a good fit for us it doesn't feel like it to me
so I don't want to continue down this road because I'm I'm picking up that this isn't a good thing so you're saying what you think and this is real power for people here this is not a a mind game it's that we repress our observations and our feelings and it makes us not
as smart as we need to be and and we're holding back something this is a vital piece of information for both parties to understand it's like why people say we're not vibing we're not in the same wavelength is because they're transmitting something and you're transmitting something totally different they're transmitting this ain't working
kid and you're like oh it's totally working and they're thinking no it's not but you haven't said anything so better for you to air it give it some light and see if you're on the same page to recalibrate then for you to repress it one of the biggest sales things for people to
remember say what you think at the risk of you losing the gig cuz you're not going to get it anyways so I love that yeah you know a lot of people wait till well so when they're young they think that well I'll be able to do that when I'm older to older men
we have personas that we use in the office and when you get the highest level Persona that we have the name is Bob and when you are talking to a bob and Bob has to be high net worth individual all this stuff right A lot of people are very very intimidated by a
guy named Bob and it's because they feel like there's some sort of I'll arrive one day to be able to talk to Bob you can talk to Bob now at 21 if you want to talk to Bob how you talk to Bob is direct and honest and short people are using too many
words they're they're they're doing this indirect hinting at things you know I hear people say I told him that and I'm like H did you did you really because if you it and this is a a really good skill is like make sure that they confirmed it back to you if you didn't
hear it back you didn't hear it you didn't say it you know it's not always great in a personal relationship to talk like that I've had girls that don't like when I do that but when you're doing it in a business format it's really good so you know you say hey I just
want to make sure you heard what I said it's going to be $250,000 when you're selling a big ticket item you better be clear that you told them you know and you should probably document it you through email too just to make make sure but even then if they didn't hear it if
they say they didn't hear it and then you come back with an email later on and you're like see I proved I did tell you that's not going to mean anything this is not about somebody winning the the fact game this is not a courtroom it's about relationship and so it's about saying
hey I just want to make sure you heard that because I realize that's very expensive and that's there's going to be some sticker shock involved but that's what it's going to cost are you is that within your budget or are you thinking about going to somebody else right now just say that directly
and you're going to have an honest conversation with somebody people want to work with people like that and there's so much uh indirect language in this generation I see now and they're just hinting and they're so afraid to say stuff and it's like man that's the difference if you have the confidence to
say those things out loud to name them and label them and all all the stuff you're talking about that will change your sales game I'm GNA make a wild guess because I was listening to your childhood and and what bands you're into so I'm gonna guess we're of similar age I'm 52 are
you in your 50s as well you look so young it's as I did not it's the hat in the glasses or something I'm 53 yeah I just3 last I knew it see I knew we were about the same age yeah yeah so the reason why I asked this is because you're right I
have two adult children like 11 17 and one's 20 he's about to be 18 any day now and they're always like Dad you're going to get cancel you can't say that I'm like I'm just saying what I'm thinking sue me and you're right there's a sensitivity to language today that it just like
what is anybody saying anymore everybody's so careful to navigate things what are your thoughts on that I know we're diverging here a oh no I I've got a lot to say about that yeah I I just don't care once you have that um ability to not care you just kind of let go
of it all um people really appreciate honest people and I I think the clients think they like me sometimes and they think I'm also brutally honest um about their business and it's my job to be brutally honest I'm not here to coddle you or make you feel good I'm not that's not why
I'm here I'm here for your success and I tell them that all the time like I don't care if you like me is if you're successful you're going to like me period there's a lot of people you know it's always really um tough you know I have this with clients sometimes or people
that I buy from you could tell there's like all these thoughts underneath that they're not talking about and they're like covertly just kind of holding back things it's very uncomfortable you know it for people when you're buying something you're spending you're making a big investment whether it's a real estate agent or you
know whatever a mortgage person or whatever and they're not telling you stuff you just don't trust that and people don't even know why they don't want to buy from you but they just don't trust you because you're not being straight with them and you think being straight with people will scare them off
it does the very very opposite it's very very attractive as the kids would say that was a bar I want to repeat it as best as I can you're saying I don't care if you like me because when you're successful you will like me then yeah that's a bar yeah that's it however
that does go against something else counter intuitively and you said it like I feel like you're an older brother from another mother deeper voice I really feel this guys because you're going to be listening to this and you're GNA say is it John or is it Chris speaking right now because it's same
wavelength philosophically okay so many people want to be like yeah so they do the things that make them really unlikable they beat around a bush they're not direct they're evasive and the thing that you think is going to make you not likable which is to be clear to be direct to to call
out the elephant in the room that actually is a thing that people admire it's very refreshing these days for people to speak their mind not in a violent way but just to be clear and direct and it's super super important to do this which leads us to the thing that you said to
be a great salesperson you have to have this kind of you have to be naturally likable so I think you've already outlined some of the traits for us are there any other traits that you can think of that make someone naturally likable I think it's like is what you're saying consistent and congruent
everywhere that is really really important a lot of people you know they they might be that way in one aspect of their life but for it to be really really believable it kind of has to be who you are and that's why I started with frame it's got to be really on the
inside and is it how you deal with everyone do you deal with everyone that way um you know when I'm talking to my kids you know are you being direct with them are you telling them how you really feel are you being that honest with them when it kind of comes with every
part of your life whether it's you know dating or whatever you're doing it it really becomes a part of you and it's not an act that you just do at work that is really when it IT you start to get superpowers because you will you will just find that people will just want
to be with you and and I find um I find it really interesting when I meet people out of town and they're like hey let's exchange numbers and you know they want it you know and they're really really powerful guys you know and they just like uh want to hang out and talk
hey fly out to see me and you know and you have those kind of experiences and you're less of the person trying to get the relationships and they're doing all the work to me that's the key when you really get to a place where you're really solid on Solid Ground everybody kind of
comes at you you don't have to do all the hard work and that is amazing you know like we don't do any outbound marketing as a company none zero and I haven't for a decade all of our stuff comes from people coming to us and all we try to do is go let's
go out there and let's be who we are and they'll come to us and that's that's attraction in of it you know in all aspects of life whether it's friendship making or whatever it is and that uh I wish I'd learn that younger you know unfortunately I'm much better at it now than
I was in my 20s but I I wish I'd learn that younger because I was very much far more insecure and dealt with a lot of stuff but when you get that down like you know life gets so much easier we're going to try to do something we're going to try to um
tap into the Multiverse I I want you to look right into the camera okay and imagine your 20-year-old self oh my gosh full of whatever ideas that you had back when you're 20-year old because they're going to be people in that mindset whether they're 20 years old or not doesn't matter tell them
what they need to hear about this thing about being who you are and letting go of trying to fit into some mold because it's not going to work and it's going to take take you 30 years to figure this out give us the shortcut so look in the camera and give your younger
self that piece of information so hopefully you'll save them some time and some pain stop caring about outcomes and start caring about the quality of the person that you are keep building and investing in you and the rest will take care of itself I didn't do that when I was 20 something I
didn't invest in myself I had to learn that in my late 30s middle of my 30s and and I just God I lost all those years I could have been and this generation definitely has that down more than we did you know like I didn't read books now I I can't stop reading
books if you aren't reading books I tell you know in my coaching I tell people like if you're not reading books like really what what are you doing like I I don't understand what kind of life you're really trying to have there's a few really basic things if you're not you know hitting
the gym and trying to be healthy and you're not reading books like what are you doing you can't expect an outcome when you aren't investing in those things I I was playing with my buddy golf on Sunday and um I'm a reasonably good golfer and he the guy you know like hit the
ball weird and whatever and I asked him I said well when was the last time you hit golf balls and he said it's so like like 6 months I go well it sounds like you can't really expect to hit it well then you know and that that's it's kind of as simple as
that I'm kind of an saying that but he's my buddy and I like to poke him we're playing golf and that's how it goes I'm like you might want to drop your expectations you might actually have some fun today you know so uh that's kind of life in a nutshell if you're not
making those investments in then you're not going to get the out it's just not going to happen and so I wish I'd done that when I was younger man I swear we're we're almost the same here late Comer to reading books you know now you can see all the books behind me oh
yeah I want to for the record I've not read all them not even close but I'm working my way through the the pile here I am an audiobook guy to be fair my brother says I'm not allowed to say that I read books because I listen to them um but I listen to
about 400 hours a year so I'm pretty invested in it I I think there used to be a stigma against listening to audio books but who cares what you're saying is invest in learning however it comes you can go to a workshop you can get a mentorship you can read books you can
listen to audio books whatever while we're on that topic though I have to ask you what are the top three books that have shaped your thinking it could be olds books or things you've read yesterday whatever yeah one of the top on my list and I mentioned this really all over the place
is atomic habits um I'm just such a James Clear fan uh of how he shaped that conversation about habits I would say uh you know Anthony Robbins awaken the giant within I actually teach that methodology that he does um and then I would say 100 million in marketing $100 million offers by Alex
Heros is I literally made a quar million dollars within the first week of reading that book and how much I've made since as a result of that book has been tremendous it's in the multi-millions oh well I want to get into tactics then okay I have a gazila other question is naturally evolved
out of our conversation so audience I apologize won't get to all of them clearly because there's a lot of threads being pulled on here but while I'm on this I could not forgive myself if I'm like wait a minute I read that book I did not make $250,000 in the first week of
reading it what' you do differently so I think some of the tactics he uses in the book um around you know first of all the idea of building an offer so good that people can't say no is was very challenging for me one of the things he said also in that was your
offer has to be so good that a great salesperson isn't required and at the time we definitely needed me to close for it to happen and I've always had Setters and assistants and people like that handling our funnels but I was like man that means I've got to make the software so freaking
good that it doesn't need me so I kind of like in my mind went what if I died how would this company continue and I never really asked that question the way I did when I read that book I started adding guarantees that was huge bonus offers right away um and those things
dynamically changed our close ratio almost overnight I mean I would say overnight we just jumped up and I broke a number within 30 days that I'd never hit before on inbound s and I was like wow that was pretty dramatic and I've been really I I think if you really really like a
book you should listen or read it 10 plus times so if it's a book that I think is really valuable I kind of go okay that was fun do I really want this in my life okay then I need to listen to it 10 times and I I've listened to that at least
10 times maybe more can you give me I mean the word guarantee scares a lot of creative people yeah can you give me example of the guarantee that you added to your offer yeah and we still offer it today so I can definitely talk about it what we did is we have people
sign an agreement for $20,000 that's like our Baseline relationship to consult with us and that gives them 30 days of Consulting and design in order for them to do that they have to sign the agreement and they can't really meet with us until then we don't do that whole concept oh free Consulting
yeah that's not good if you're if you're if you're giving out free Consulting your your opinion is not very valuable we we do that well we always had they always come in for about four to six hours on day one they spend a whole day with our team we were so successful and
we always felt confident that if they got in that room they were a customer for life and I was like well am I willing to put my money where my mouth is like if they're not happy after that day am I willing to give them back their money and yeah I am and
so we do that now we offer them a guarantee it's a discovery day guarantee if they don't if they're not happy by the end of that day we're willing to break the relationship and send send their money back and we wasted five hours of our time however I've never given one out and
if somebody asked for it I'd probably be like oh they're just not our client that's probably good for us to get out of this relationship there's that interframe working for you right there yeah yeah it sucks sending somebody 20 grand back after you just did a lot of work however what would you
have spent to try to make them happy maybe impossible you know you might have SP a lot more money trying to do that I want to highlight a couple things about what you just said there you've uh broken the engagement into a commitment so they can't get in that room unless they've got
20K to spend which means they have more money to spend because that's for Discovery you're very confident in what you're what the value you create in building the relationship hence the guarantee and the last thing is if it doesn't work man we were just not meant to work together I'm not going to
blor this this thing and kill ourselves and frustrate the entire team and and just destroy morale and I think that's a quiet confidence that I want all of our listeners to have they said like not everybody who can afford you is your customer they're just not and you have to be okay to
exit the relationship and that gives you such Clarity and like if it's like I've heard this expression before if it's not a hell yes then it's a hell no and we we die in the middle right because we're like kind of yeah I kind of need the money I I kind of can
deal with this person but Life's Too Short that's why we don't make longer than 30-day commitments when we start with relationships we're not sure how that relationship is going to go it's like that that first discovery and design process is the dating process it's them deciding whether they want to get into a
marriage because once we start coding something we're married right we always tell them that like we're married it's going to be a divorce if we get out of this relationship it's going to be really painful for both of us we kind of use that 30-day process to really get us there and sometimes
we've told people hey we just think it's probably best if we part ways now after the 30-day commitments up you know we've definitely walked him to the door in a sense and just said hey I I just think you know you guys will be better off we we've actually you know said hey
here's here's a list of people you might want to go see so you're resigning from the work because you don't feel like you're a good fit yeah like it's just it's going to be it we've you know we've tried to do it it's not like we haven't haven't we haven't taken those relationships
on you learn by um making that mistake and going hey and and that's why it's really important to have personas for your clients we have you know five personas we use and we from the very first conversation before I even get on the phone the sales team has already identified what Persona they
are well you told us one of them yeah his name is Bob Bob's a high high net worth High net worth yeah you don't meet many of those um I've had billionaire s come through the funnel just the same as everybody else it's pretty wild I mean we ended up working with Peter
teal as a result of our funnel just same as everything everybody else you're like oh billionaires Google stuff yeah they do yeah just like everybody else sometimes you don't know who they are and you're like oh and you you you key into something you're like wait wa wait this guy's different and you
just Google them and you're like oh my gosh like I've had that experience several times yeah I did not know who I was talking to the whole time you know which is great cuz you were just being natural and you weren't treating them different probably better you didn't know then you know I've
sold them and then realized it later and then so that's when Timmy turns into Bob because you Google him later yeah the the one before it is the name is Tucker um yeah and and it's like and we named that after a cat I met in North Carolina I don't know why we
just like the name Tucker yeah Tucker gets promoted to being a bob and sometimes that happens we we realize we had the Persona off a little bit and then we as we get to know them it's it's fluid you can change it have you written about the five personality types and in the
profiles cuz if somebody's curious about this I don't want to spend hard time talking about this but if they wanted to read about the five personality types of profiles you've built is there somewhere we can send them I have not I've never even talked about it on a podcast till today yeah maybe
we should talk about it then what do you think I'm totally fine I I think yeah I think I've said them out loud in some of my talks you know public talks um at least two of them that I think are the most common so yeah I'm yeah I'd be let's do it
okay let's why don't we just name them all and then you tell me what what makes them who they are so we have Bob we have Tucker underneath that you have uh Monday these are named after actual clients some of them uh Monday yeah Monday and she knows and then we have Terry
um and then the the very last one was named after this really weird client we had and his nickname was Zuma dog Zuma dog took that on yeah so it's six I guess it's six yeah right is that six no that's five Bob Tucker Monday Terry and Zuma dog I'll tell you the
rest so so Bob is a high Networth individual very successful person can fully fund his own project doesn't really need to raise money Tucker is been successful a lot of times you'll see a Tucker and a bob team up that's a very common scenario for us and Tucker can be a business guy
he works with but Tucker tends to be a little bit younger a little bit more techsavvy he's got some business acument um and maybe can fund his project but we know that he's very serious customer Monday is somebody who has potential so this is like a potential um they don't necessarily have the
resources but they have a lot of potential a lot of times I see a lot of young people that I call Mondays um we're like yeah you know we're going to ride this out we actually think that they have a ton of potential if we just hang in there with them they they
take a lot of advantage of our coach in and some of the other stuff that we offer in our in our ecosystem Terry is a um a dreamer and not a doer they often will say a lot of things and they might even lie to you to make you think that they're more
than they are God don't be a Terry it's just be honest with yourself it's it's a terrible place to live you know just be honest you know there there are a lot of the fake it till you make it people and then the last one Zuma dog is just not a qualified lead
they're person that's just out there wasting your time you got to qualify I never get to talk to those anymore your Gatekeepers have to keep them out because they're going to waste your time yeah I I tend to only get to talk to the the ones that are really interesting to talk to
now aside from their ability to to buy what makes them not qualified yeah they're they they have really bad expectations for how this is going to go I really look expectations are one of the biggest things I really qualify because that really if you can't manage those because they're unmanageable because of the
person's you know character how they are then you're really set up to have a really bad relationship you've got to really find the unqualified first before you really understand the qualified you mentioned how you deal with each one well you've mentioned how you deal with Bob Bob's a high net worth person they're
ready to go y don't waste Bob's time be clear be direct and use as few words as possible Bob is dead serious yeah yes all right what do you do with Tucker Tucker Tucker is great I I really like Tucker they're they're actually sometimes easier to deal with than a Bob um they're
kind of like the ideal client they really value what you offer they know what it's going to cost they know they can pay for it um and they have really really realistic expectations they're very involved in their business that's probably the most common person I deal with you know they're not Bobs don't
grow on trees you know there's not a whole bunch of them out there Tucker's are out there they're really great clients to work with how do you treat them like if Bob needs to be direct clear and short is Tucker the same yeah Tucker just probably needs to be a little bit more
educated they're normally very very proficient at something that they already do but they need to understand that running a software starting a software company is a different game and you need to really spend time with them so I spent a lot of time you know hanging out with you know Tuckers and grabbing
lunch or whatever it might be to really just invest in them um and we become normally very very good friends um in that process let's go to Monday what do you do with Monday the potential but lacks resources is it a grooming process very much a grooming process yeah you you've got so
that's why we do weekly coaching for our accelerators and um I spend an hour with them every Tuesday Bobs aren't going to attend that class you're never going to see them um but Mondays are very invested in that and that's more of a long-term play with a Monday you're basically saying hey this
is going to take some time but if they hang in there and they get the right support they're going to be extremely devoted to what you did to get them there and um you see them just grow and become something really special and it's really really exciting um to watch them grow so
long-term Play support and it's an investment of your time and energy so that they can become a Tucker and they're normally a great person for me to invest in their company or something like that to get you know some sort of uh help them with investment help them you know make introductions for
them because a lot of times they're just lacking opportunity and resources and if you can do that they're going to do well the bottom two I think I know what the answer is but I'm gonna ask Terry the dreamer not to do work with them hang up run as fast as you can
very simple yeah yeah Terry you got to spot because they look like Tuckers they're often a Tucker um clone but they're not real and so you you you can get into a real collection problem because they don't pay you've got to really really spot them because you can put yourself in a bad
financial position once you identify them you what do you do you send them other resources or like we're not a good fit yeah normally they they kind of tell on themselves at some point and once you spot it you're like oh man I and you hate it because you probably got duped by
it a little bit and you realize it and you're like oh they're one of those and so we're pretty good at spotting them now um we we put hurdles in front of people Terry's I I said this at a talk last week um I always say that they're the biggest talker and the
fastest Walker they're just not truly committed to the real process so if you put enough in front of them they'll just quit or tell on themselves at some point so Zuma die I'm just assuming we got to end that call as fast as possible yeah get off get off the call as soon
as you can by you know just be kind and refer them to your content and hope that they grow I like that you added the word kindness to it yeah you don't you know it's still your brand and you still want to protect your you know who you are to the public I
love that you have this whole naming structure it's there are no clues as to who these people are I would have done like dreamer Dan oh it's dreamer Dan we know what to do with dreamer Dan versus saying Terry because now we have to decode what Terry means they're so well they're it's
funny they're so well known in our office that you don't even need to have names with them like so I always say the most common are dreamers and gardeners dreamers are people that live in the clouds and they have no idea how to execute what they're doing gardeners are people who live in
the weeds and they have no idea how to think big those are the most common that you that if you want to break it down to two categories those are really really common ones yeah okay I'm going to ask you one more personal question that I want to talk about naked okay were
you naturally likable as a high school student were you Mr popular not necessarily I was kind of in the middle I kind of you know I I was a little bit of a Stoner kid but yet I also was in ASB so I played like this two-sided world you know hung out with
the athletes but I was more of you know less of an athlete you know when I was younger U I kind of got into Athletics later yeah I was I don't know I I don't think I was I did run for like student office and stuff when I was a kid but I
wasn't definitely wasn't in the top you know well-known kid kids you know I I was just like in just underneath that probably enough ambition and likeability to run for office I mean that says something about you I think I I lost though one in my freshman year because um I think people knew
I was you know also a stoner which was a great way to you know get that going it could have been the Aussie Osborne t-shirt and the you know denim jacket and the bandana around your leg that gave it away oh man I totally have a picture of me in eighth grade with
a bandana around my leg you know with mly crew buttons on my shirt you know we we didn't talk much about your faith but you also mentioned in that podcast with Mick about Irwin mcmanis a person we have a friend or a person we admire in common and where the name naked comes
from yeah can you explain that and tell us a little bit more about naked yeah so naked originally came from a Biblical verse you know naked and unashamed in Genesis and it's the idea of creation and that's what we do we create things and we realize you know God put just the right
amount of clothes on us when we were born which is none and so when you create a product it really comes into the world you know a little naked we really enforce that a lot that's really if there is a a core belief with with our company it's really about being lean when
you create things you need to go out and you're going to be a little embarrassed there's so much great language around it you know stripping down ideas and you know there's so much great language around the concept of naked and so when you pass the 405 freeway in in Irvine California you see
a big science is naked off the freeway I'm sure people wonder all the time what we are I get a get kick out of it when I'm driving at night and I pass our office just like wonder what these people think that that building is some you know uh but it's really it
it's very much about creation did you come over the name because it's provocative or did it really come from this place like I really think it reflects our philosophy and who I am and it also happens to be super provocative it was both I loved it my kids hated it um they still
won't wear my gear they love what I've done but I don't I think if you walk around with gear on that's say naked it's people like whoa what's that you know they're worried about wearing it at school or whatever um and it's like I yeah I liked both I really did I I
I had to fight a lot to get there was there was a lot of hurdles in the beginning because people you know very much didn't support the concept you know but I said well that's how Brands work nobody says anything about Virgin Airlines we all like that brand you know or liked it
is it still around it's around is Ish okay it's one of those things that it's often when it's provocative people have are uncomfortable in the beginning I remember a call uh a sales call I made to a group in Alabama and I said I said oh yeah this is John from naked because
we just say naked we don't say naked development I said this is joh John from naked and she goes John from what and I go John from naked she goes you know that's not good right and I've I've had so many of those comments it makes me smile it really does because I'm
just not uptight about it and I really don't care if you like it um so many people come to us because we are edgy we gain more than we ever lost for sure I think it it says something about you willing to go for it and push and get the team to adopt
it and say say we're we're going to commit to this yeah you have a sense of humor you're provocative you're willing to push things to the edge but it can be rooted to your faith and it's a reflection of your philosophy which I think is pretty cool because you're talking about being transparent
being honest direct not not caring and so that is being naked and unashamed yep absolutely and if you wanted to go even Bolder you could just say I'm John and I am naked as a Founder you know or co-founder well you know you know since you have creatives on here we even added
the period after the naked in the logo because it's about finality it's about nothing more don't add because people always want to add you know we're always trying to chase perfectionism it's not good you perfectionism prevents you from actually accomplishing things and you have to be willing to throw yourself out there and
feel a little embarrassed you know and I love that quote by uh Reed Hoffman you know if you're not embarrassed by your first version you waited too long you have to be a little embarrassed when you go to market you have to you have to have that and we so that that concept
of naked really kind of said all of it and The more I've you know it's been six years we've had the brand I'm just so much more married to it today than I even was in the beginning and I'm so glad I fought for it really got through a lot of criticism in
the front end you know even our Corporation we called it naked apps at first and that was a major your Google problem and so we had to change that we did that in the first 30 days of the brand being out there we just realized in our first version we were like okay
we got to iterate already as our audience can imagine try typing that in slowly see what comes up don't do it it's not good it's not good and we realize for work that was going to have some real challenges yeah your SEO and your content game your inbound marketing must be very good
for Peter teal to find his way into your thing that's his volumes right because you're like yes he does Google I mean because you see you don't do outbound marketing it's all inbound so somehow through your various efforts he finds his way into your thing what do you attribute that to I think
it's really really understanding what your customer is Googling you you you should know that very very well to me it's my obsession understanding the person that I want to meet what are they looking for and I think sometimes it's different than people think there's new resp to it and you need to be
really really intimately you know a lot of times CEOs will just like Outsource that and go hey just let somebody handle that and that's great to have good quality people but you better be involved in that one that's an intimate relationship is when they are sitting there and they're typing and they're going
hey I want to find this person how are they finding that person you know what are they typing and if you don't know the answer to that I I really have to question whether you know your business or all if you don't take anything away from this conversation answer that question what is
your ideal customer searching for right now and then answer that question it's so critical because if you can get put yourself in a place that you don't need customers or you don't need to look for customers that is where you want to live that is a good place to live um because you
don't want to go where am I getting my next meal you don't want to have to ask that question and if you are still asking that question you don't have a repeatable sales process you can't wake up and know this is how I'm going to get business you just are guessing where that
next meal is coming from and that's not that's not a great business to live in I'm intrigued by this you've worked with Bank of America Hyundai Wells Fargo PGA and American Red Cross and you write on your website we use Tech to grow Brands how do you do that what I'm obsessed with
really when we de when in our Consulting is really understanding the goal of the business the tech is the vehicle so it's like okay you want to go to point B too many people in Tech are worried about the stack or the you know all these things that get so caught up in
the the conversation about the tech and people who are hiring you to make Tech or probably don't care about tech you know I there was an article uh the other day that uh one of the one of our employees sent it was about have developers lost the reason why we're developing that conversation
is just so missed by so many people and so we we sit down and we're like hey when we're dealing with the Motion Picture Association they're saying they want to make an app we're like why why do you want to make an app why do you think the app is going to do
this thing you know so we start we really obsess about the problem and we obsess about solving that problem through technology and then there's normally marketing has to be really closely connected to that by mirroring all those things together you get the outcome is successful business ventures not tech tech is just if
if if tech right now is the best way to do these things but if it was something else later I would be doing that thing it just happens to be the vehicle of today it's great it's you know it's a great vehicle and it has been for a long time but it's not
you know right now apps I really you know love that market however if it was something else you can guarantee I'd be doing it once you understand the goal of the business ises it ultimately manifests itself into a mobile app if they can't answer that question right if the mobile app I've told
people you know what I I've had people go I want us do this content app and I'm like I think you should start a YouTube channel like and they're like why are you saying that aren't you trying to sell me an app I'm like no you told me what you want and I'm
trying to tell you what you should do to get what you want and by I've talked people out of making apps many many times like I just don't I think sometimes people have this really misunderstanding that I make this app it gets on the store everybody downloads it I'm like whoa that's not
how it works that's a misconception of how this business works you know and then I sit back and I drink to you know uh margaritas and I make money and like yeah so if I hear that I hear Bad expectations I try to correct those right away and then ask them what they
want and if what they want is not you know something that we can help them with I'd rather have them go do something else you sound like you do sales with Integrity like you're a person of character the way that you say that and there's going to be people who are going to
listen but John just build the app and be done with it now why wouldn't you just take the money I think I know why but why wouldn't you do that for those people who are heart of hearing yeah I I I think you're misunder understanding when if you do that if you take
the short term out and just sell and just take the money you're misunderstanding like the ramifications of doing business that way when you do that one you have a image of scarcity already you know you think there's not other customers behind them you know you should be selling out your product every month
if you aren't selling out capacity every month then you should be working on that you know so you have to have the ability to say no to people that aren't a good fit you don't want to put your team in the place of having to deal with those people and you don't want
to take business on like that because it's not going to be sustaining so it's really just not going to get you where you want to go as a company by doing doing that you like to say it's about integrity but it's actually about yourself too yeah it's it's just like if you're if
you really value your time and value what you do and all those things and you have to have you know boundaries you know to to Really protect you right and I hate wasting my time it's one of the things I hate the most you know investing in time in something that is just
wasting you know wasted effort that really bugs me and it's a big pet peeve of M which is why sometimes I'm impatient um cuz I'm like oh you're wasting my time right now like I've got to go I'm ruthless when it comes to wasting my time and it sometimes can be offputting what
people don't understand is like people like you and me we're we're invested in the customer success and so if you take the customer's money you build their thing and then later on like you know this didn't achieve what I wanted who are they going to blame they're going to blame you absolutely you
don't need that energy in the world right not only have you spent money and wasted time and energy but it's not going to work and you knew it was not going to work from the beginning so we kind of have to ask oursel this question like what the heck are you doing then
if you're in business just to Serve Yourself it's called the service industry for a reason absolutely they are the boss you know really in the end of the day I don't sign paychecks the customer signs of paychecks we have to work so hard at communicating with them being honest and being upfront and
pointing out problems and that effort is exhausting and you don't want to do that with somebody that you have zero chance of being successful with I see that in my personal relationships you know one of my most popular videos is you are the five people you hang out with and I think that
just resonates with people because I think people know that they have friends that they shouldn't be hanging out with to kind of wrap this up I mean you were talking about dating before it's like you're not going to go on a date if you know it's a totally it's going to be a
disaster why would you even do it yeah I have a matchmaking service so I get vetted and weeded out before I have to meet someone cuz if I'm just doing the apps and I'm going through that process I'm I'm just going to waste so much time I've been talking to John Driscoll he's
a consultant marketer speaker and a growth hacker he's also the CEO and co-founder of a super fun company called naked development this conversation went many different paths I didn't have any expectations going to today John it's been a pleasure talking to you today my name is John Driscoll and you are listening to
the Future
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