1h 35m 11 min read 14,335
What It's Like Being A Pro Portrait Photographer w/Jill Greenberg
Chris Do and photographer Jill Greenberg discuss the art, business, and controversies of a professional portrait photography career.
Chris Do
Founder, The Futur™ · January 15, 2021
Art That Makes You Uncomfortable
A small child’s face is crumpled in despair. Tears streak down perfectly lit cheeks, mouth open in a sob that feels both primal and profound. The image is beautiful, polished, and deeply unsettling. For many, it is an image of abuse. For the artist, it is a reflection of a world gone mad.
This is the work of Jill Greenberg. Her 2006 series, End Times, featuring toddlers in moments of manufactured distress, ignited a global firestorm. She was accused of child abuse. Bloggers demanded her arrest. Mainstream news outlets from the London Sunday Times to Inside Edition amplified the outrage.
“It was a really like an early an early, you know, online mob scene,” Greenberg recalls.
But the controversy misses the point. Chris Do, in conversation with Greenberg, frames it differently. “Artists want to make you feel something,” he argues. “You just want to live in a world where art doesn’t?”
The question cuts to the core of a creative career. What is the purpose of art if not to elicit a response? And what does it take to build a career on work that refuses to be ignored, even when that work makes people furious? Jill Greenberg’s story is not just about photography. It is a masterclass in developing a unique voice, navigating public backlash, and surviving the brutal economics of a creative industry.
The Architect of Faces
Long before the crying children, Greenberg was honing a style that was uniquely her own. A graduate of the prestigious Rhode Island School of Design (RISD) with a BFA in Art Photography, her background was in illustration and painting. This fine art sensibility informed her approach from the very beginning.
She was also a technological pioneer. In 1990, she was working with Photoshop 1.0, a tool then considered sacrilegious by many photographic purists. “I was a pretty early adopter in terms of that,” she says. “A friend of mine who, and now she's a friend, but she told me that in 1993 I was the only person that she knew who did Photoshop in New York City.”
This fusion of painterly skill and digital mastery created her signature look: portraits that are hyper-real, yet stylized to an almost illustrative degree. Her celebrity portraits, like a memorable one of Jon Stewart, exemplify this approach. The skin is perfected, the cheekbones carved by light, the highlights meticulously enhanced. To the untrained eye, it appears impossibly perfect.
Greenberg describes her retouching process as adding “icing on the cake.” The foundation must be solid. The lighting, makeup, and composition are all captured in-camera. The post-production work is about enhancement, not fabrication. “I'm adding to the highlights, I'm sort of like bringing out the highlights and maybe like darkening some of the shadows and things like that,” she explains. “It's fun.”
Her approach treats the human face as a piece of architecture. In a world saturated with casual snapshots, she creates images that feel permanent and iconic. This comes from her obsession with what she calls sculptural lighting. While many photographers simply illuminate, Greenberg uses light to carve, define, and dramatize.
This is not about chasing trends. It is about a disciplined, artistic vision. “I love graphic design and I look at things in terms of composition and balance and and lines all the time,” she notes. “That's exactly what I'm doing.” It’s a mindset that separates a professional artist from an amateur with a good camera, a distinction explored in-depth in The Future of Branding.
The Art of Connection
Working with some of the biggest and most difficult personalities in the world, from celebrities to children and animals, requires more than technical skill. It demands a sophisticated understanding of human psychology. Greenberg’s process is built on establishing an energy of trust and collaboration, not dominance.
Many aspiring photographers make a critical mistake. They immediately start barking orders. “In the beginning, you don't want to over-direct them because that's going to completely ruin the mood,” Greenberg warns. Instead of telling them to “turn your head that way and look over at me,” she lets the subject settle into the space first.
The first few moments are for observation, not instruction. It’s a quiet search for the subject’s essence. She calls the ideal connection a “Vulcan mind meld,” a non-verbal understanding that flows between photographer and subject. “The energy is all the energy's real,” she insists. “A photo shoot is like a party. You have to have good music and good food and good good time.”
When direction is necessary, it is delivered as a polite request, not a command. She often demonstrates the pose herself, instinctively mirroring the gesture she wants to capture. This collaborative feeling is essential. The subject must believe you know what you’re doing and that your goal is to make them look their best.
Greenberg’s playbook for taking better portraits is deceptively simple:
- Don't over-direct at first. Let the subject’s own energy emerge. Your job is to create an atmosphere of trust, not to micromanage their every move.
- Use flattering light. Master bounced light. Greenberg uses a light bounced into a large white foam core board. It is soft, forgiving, and universally flattering, especially for older subjects. A ring light is another easy tool for even, flattering illumination.
- Find their best side. Every face is different. Pay close attention. Some people look best straight on, others at a three-quarter angle. It’s a subjective visual decision, but your job is to make it. “I'm a huge fan of faces,” she says. “You just you look and you evaluate.”
- Look for gesture. The way a person holds themselves, leans, or angles their body adds emotion and energy to an image. A subtle tilt of the head or shift in posture can transform a static picture into a dynamic portrait.
- Control the camera angle. Greenberg often shoots from slightly below her subjects. This subtle shift makes them appear more iconic and powerful, a technique that contrasts with the more common approach of shooting from above.
She even has a practical tip for minimizing a double chin. It’s not about hiding. It’s about adjusting the architecture. “You have them like sort of stick their head out a little,” she demonstrates, pushing her own chin forward slightly. This small movement tightens the jawline and creates a cleaner, more defined profile. It’s a lesson in seeing the face not as a collection of features, but as a sculpture to be shaped with posture and light.
This level of psychological and technical nuance is what defines a true professional. It’s about building a connection so authentic that the subject trusts you completely, a skill vital for anyone trying to build content people actually react to.
Manufacturing an Emotion
The End Times series began with a single image. Shortly after George W. Bush’s second inauguration, Greenberg was photographing a friend's children. The little brother started crying, and in that moment of raw emotion, she saw a reflection of her own political despair. She titled the photo Four More Years.
“I was a new mother at the time,” she explains, “and I thought, you know, if our children knew what was happening to the planet... they would be really upset.”
From that spark came a full series. She photographed her friends' kids, some models, and even her own son, Zed. The method for eliciting tears became the focal point of the controversy. The story that went viral was that she cruelly “snatched candy from children’s hands.” The reality was far more mundane.
“We gave them a lollipop and took it away,” she clarifies. More accurately, they would ask for it back. “‘Can we have the lollipop?’ ‘No!’ you know. So it wasn't, there was no snatching. There was no physical interfacing with the children.”
The entire emotional event, captured in a single frame, lasted for a fraction of a second. “It was literally a 300th of a second, a 250th of a second,” she says. Showing contact sheets from the shoots reveals a child being happy one moment, sobbing the next, and happy again moments later. It was the typical, fleeting emotional volatility of a two-year-old.
But the power of a still photograph is that it freezes a moment, making it eternal. That fleeting sob, when isolated and perfectly lit, became an icon of profound suffering. The public reaction was swift and vicious. The vitriol, Greenberg believes, was disproportionate and had a gendered component. It tapped into a deep-seated protectiveness over children, but it also flattened a complex artistic statement into a simple narrative of cruelty.
In her official response to the criticism, Greenberg made a powerful point: to equate a controlled studio environment, with parents present, to actual child torture cheapens the meaning of the word. Real abuse and neglect happen every day, and they look nothing like a photoshoot.
As Chris Do points out, the effectiveness of the art is proven by the intensity of the reaction. “Through the power of photography, you froze it and made it last forever,” he says. “We're not used to seeing such intense displays of emotion for really long periods of time. I think then your art was very successful.”
Years later, Greenberg sees a prophetic quality in the work. The children in those photos, members of Generation Z, have grown up to be the generation of Greta Thunberg, politically active and deeply concerned about the environment. “It's like the children in my End Times photos actually did... bear out,” she muses. “They grew up to be very active.” The work’s power endures because its underlying message was true.
The Business of Survival
While art can be timeless, the business of making it is anything but. Greenberg is candid about the seismic shifts in the photography industry. The heyday of massive budgets and creative freedom is largely gone, replaced by a hyper-competitive market with shrinking fees.
“In the heyday of the editorial industry... a magazine cover with a budget of 50 or 60,000 dollars is unheard of now,” she states. “You have a budget of 3,000 dollars all in, including everything, sometimes.”
The same decline has hit advertising. A single image licensed for a one-year print campaign in the 90s could command a fee of around $18,000. “Now you'll be lucky if you get 20,000 dollars for the entire shoot... for unlimited usage,” she reveals. That’s a catastrophic reduction in value.
This reality forces photographers to be more than just artists. They must be entrepreneurs. For those looking to work with brands, Greenberg advises a direct approach. She started her career by repping herself, a process she recommends for understanding what an agent actually does. Landing work today requires a proactive, strategic hustle.
Here’s how to find commercial work, according to an industry veteran:
- Target the Art Buyer. In advertising agencies, the key contact is the art buyer. Their job is to find and commission photographers for campaigns. You do not need an agent to contact them.
- Build Your Contact List. You can subscribe to industry services that provide contact lists for art buyers and creative directors. Alternatively, use LinkedIn to find their names and then call the agency’s main line to get their direct contact information.
- Go Direct to Brands. With the rise of social media, you can often reach out directly. Greenberg suggests contacting a brand’s social media manager via Instagram or LinkedIn. It might lead to a smaller, entry-level job, but it’s a foot in the door.
- Don’t Wait for an Agent. An agent will not solve all your problems. They expect you to already have momentum. “You still have to do a ton of legwork yourself,” she says. Proving you can generate your own opportunities is crucial for attracting representation, a strategy that applies to anyone trying to attract their ideal clients.
The most problematic aspect of the industry is its own internal culture. Photographers love to work. This passion becomes a liability when it leads them to accept lowball offers. “A lot of photographers are basically gonna kind of say yes,” Greenberg admits. “Everyone would rather shoot for free than not shoot at all... and that's the reason that rates have gone down.”
It’s a brutal cycle. The lack of a strong union and an oversupply of talent means clients hold all the power. Working is almost always better than not working, even if the job is underpaid. An average project might lead to a portfolio-defining image, which in turn could lead to a better-paying gig down the line. It’s a gamble every creative professional must weigh, a reality that makes understanding how to price your services more critical than ever.
Pressure Under the Lights
The pressure of a high-end commercial shoot is immense. Greenberg recalls one of her most difficult jobs, a shoot for Paramount Pictures that required 70 different setups in a single day.
This was not just a series of headshots. It involved multiple actors, six or seven different lighting schemes, a variety of lenses, and shots from every conceivable angle, from high overhead to shooting through plexiglass. The complexity was staggering.
The pre-production was as intense as the shoot itself. “At one point we did a... we timed it,” she says. “We sort of ran through the whole shoot with like a stopwatch... to see how many hours it's gonna take.”
To maximize efficiency on the day, her team used body doubles wearing the actors' exact wardrobe. This allowed them to pre-light each setup while Greenberg was shooting another. When the main talent stepped onto set, the lighting was already 90% there, requiring only minor tweaks.
Greenberg often tests the light on herself. It’s a simple, effective quality-control measure. “I know exactly what I look like... and I know what looks good on me or what doesn't look good on me,” she explains. It also provides a better baseline than using a 20-year-old assistant. “I'm over 50, and so if it looks good on me, then we're good.”
This experience informs her advice on lighting for different ages. A 19-year-old can handle almost any light. But for an older subject, soft, diffused, centered light is far more flattering. Hard side-lighting, while dramatic, can be unforgiving. Understanding these nuances is non-negotiable at the professional level.
Pulling off a shoot with 70 setups in one day is a monumental achievement. “I felt like I'd accomplished something to pull something off like that,” she says. It’s a testament to the discipline, planning, and grace under pressure required to operate at the peak of the industry. This is not simply creativity. This is high-stakes execution.
To survive and thrive as a professional creative requires a rare combination of artistic vision, psychological acumen, and ruthless business pragmatism. You must develop a voice so distinct it cannot be ignored. You must cultivate the confidence to direct talent and the humility to collaborate. And you must have the resilience to withstand both public scrutiny and economic pressure.
Jill Greenberg’s career is a blueprint. It shows that hard work and focus are the foundation, but a willingness to evolve, to adopt new tools, and to create work that demands a reaction is what builds a legacy.
The industry will eat itself. Budgets will fall. Critics will rage. The only thing you truly control is the work. Make it count.
TRANSCRIPT
what's up everybody happy thursday it's so good to see you look i'm a little rusty and so is jonah and we're nervous because of today's guess and the fact that we've been uh kind of off our game a little bit but we have a very special guest today we're welcoming joe greenberg and
i want to show you a little bit of her work in a second but uh what is up donation futurists doers movers and shakers donuts you know who you are today we're going to be talking to photographer and artist jill greenberg and the intro is going to be a little long because there's
a lot of accolades and things i got to talk about real quick okay she's a self-described sort of work introvert and workaholic she's very good at faces she's a american canadian living in new york she has a background in illustration and painting and there's a series of photographs that are infamous called end
times we'll talk a little bit about that she's released four monographs she has a bfa in art photography from risd and here are just some of the exhibitions that she's been a part of check this out um this is the first time i've had to do this it's so long i had to
stretch it over multiple slides okay and that's just a little bit of it and some of the awards that she's one but you know words don't tell the story images do so i want to show you some of her work just to kind of prime you as to who she's worked with and
what she's done and she's worked with people she's worked with the the groups of people that they warn you not to work with is children and animals and she's done both she's shot many celebrities for cover photos like these i mean i'm just thrilled to be talking to joe in one second look
at these images so killer how did she get these look at this and then there's collage work too and this is the end times here check this out and this had um a pretty strong reaction from a lot of people who are concerned about children and exploitation but i i loved her response
to this and we'll we'll get her on so everybody please help me to welcome jill greenberg hey everybody welcome to the show hello nice to see you this is really fun to see you okay um we had a little kind of pre-call banter and i like the energy well everybody know she's not
some stiff photographer this may go in many different directions one or two swear words might slip out of her lips so if you have children on it you don't want them to be exposed to that that's your warning and let's get into the show so i have a whole bunch of questions for
you first you're in new york life is very different because of covet but i want to ask you this question which i think everybody thinks about they see you where you're at now and the question is how did you get there how does one become such a well-known well-established photographer working with some
of the biggest names in the world um let's see i don't know i think uh i just uh focused on i really focused on one thing and i just worked really hard at it um i wanted to do a lot of different things and um a lot i have a lot of different
interests and lately actually i let myself explore all of those things and i realized how hard it is to do six things at one time six different creative pursuits but um but i really think you know just um working and and uh continuing to develop my style and um running out meeting people
shooting all the time getting better and better every time you more you know the more you work the better you get um working you know working nights and weekends that i already say that um yeah that's the usual hard work focus and how long did it take for you once you got out
of school to really feel like yeah i'm a professional photographer i'm getting paid i'm working on cool gigs um i would say i would say it took about five years well no i mean i was assisting when did i but i mean really like so i graduated from art school in 1989 and
i moved to new york right after that and um you know it was probably like night well no 93 92 93 i was doing some cool photography for some fun magazines and you know shooting bands and um so yeah three four years two three years whatever [Laughter] okay all right i i feel
your energy's a little different i'm gonna try to get you back to like the pre-live energy here okay i know sorry no it's okay totally cool um do you remember any kind of one or two things that might have happened that you felt like boom there it is it just clicked there was
this person this opportunity i i did something i was scared to do and it worked out and then all of a sudden things started to click after that i mean uh i don't know like i started working you know i was i was doing photoshop in 1990 with photoshop 1.0 and and i
was so i was pretty early i was pretty early adopter in terms of that um in fact someone told me recently a friend a friend of mine who and now she's a friend but she she's only that in 1990 three i was the only person that she knew who did photoshop in new
york city so so i did i was i did this uh gig for her but uh sorry what were we talking about again what are we doing here this is a podcast okay okay before people wonder this question before i rephrase the question i just want to make sure you're looking at our
camera because it looks like you're talking to somebody else over there there's nobody here okay just us right it's just us and a couple hundred people okay hopefully to grow the question i was i wanted to know was was there anything was there one moment one moment everybody's always looking for that one
moment no i was gonna say yes shooting for starting to shoot for magazines oh okay there was one really cool so i had i was doing these uh refl reflected images in mylar with colored gels in like 92 and somehow i went to this restaurant in chelsea called portfolio and they let me
they let me have a show of my work in this restaurant um of these distorted portraits and then um and then i got assigned to shoot one for time magazine in the back so that was 92 so i mean that was like really exciting for me that these sort of distorted painter painterly
kind of portraits um you know i had a little a little show and then and then it led to a commission for time magazine so that was i think that was a big thing for me for sure that's a big deal yeah magazine a couple years out of school yeah that was good
that was good okay yeah well we want to talk a little bit also about the you being an early adopter you using photoshop because for some people that would have been like sacrilegious like hey it's photography and then there's photoshop stay away from that yeah but i see that you're you're kind of
you're an early pioneer and using photoshop with the images that you're taking so i want to show you an image okay this is from this is from your site and these are two gentlemen everybody knows but as i punched in on their faces and i look at this i think is it me
are they so perfect like the way that it's lit or is there a little bit more to these images because just the way the cheekbones look and the perfect tan everything seems so perfect is can you tell us a little bit about the process in terms of how you got to these images
um so i mean to me these look a little bit over retouched i mean i think maybe there was a i'll have to say that but um but these and these are actually shot on film both of these images were shot on film uh they're from the auths um and you know there's
there's relatively straight images and like nothing's composited nothing's okay massively changed but so what i did you know there's lighting all around jon stewart specifically there's lighting all around well they're both they both are lighting all around um and yeah and then i sort of like like add i thought of it as
like frosting like icing on the cake you know like the it all has to be there the lighting's there there's makeup you know john stewart had a fair amount of makeup i think he didn't love me keep telling the makeup artist to put more makeup on him but um because it's always better
to have sort of darker skin and then you know the light can shine more off the darker skin is that you know supposed to get really pale um so yeah i mean i think i i had no problem and i still have no problem you know uh adding to my images and and
sort of making them more stylized you know lately you know since this sort of peak of my the retouching being quite stylized and quite you know a little bit over the top i've uh you know have gone in a more natural direction um but but i guess you know this was part of
the this was part of what i was doing with the crying babies and and the monkeys a little bit too yeah and i'll show you the crying babies image in a second so i just want to make sure i understand this and this is a very particular style that you're like it's it's
kind of worked on in maybe you're saying maybe overworked for today's style but i still love these images i love this hard side lighting really drawing out his cheekbones and we talk about this all the time so you're saying this is like all in camera uh it was some makeup and then some
retouching about maybe skin balancing those kinds of things but it's all there in camera and uh no kind of photo compositing like 13 different photographs of john composited together right now okay that's beautiful amazing yeah i mean i'm adding to the highlights like i'm sort of like bringing out the highlights and maybe
like darkening some of the shadows and things like that it's fun and you said that john didn't love you telling the makeup artist to put more makeup on but it's like darker skin it gives you a little bit more to work with is that right for sure for sure i mean like think
about you know if i start out being like really pale like there's not going to be a gradation from dark to light but like for example when you shoot an african-american person the lighting can be amazing you go from like a darker color to to white so like the like the modulation and
the you know the sculptural almost look to the light can it just it looks amazing so that it's nicer to have darker skin mm-hmm do you hear that jonathan for us jonah and ricky the darker complexion people hey things are looking good things are looking good all right i want to come back
to this image here and uh there was a bit of an uproar about this in terms of your end times series that's my son is it really your son that's my son you picked my son oh wow what a coincidence i did not know that okay so can you share a little bit
of the story the background of this and it's it's a bunch of kids that are crying they're not very happy and take it from there please okay so um okay so i was i was i wanted to do another i wanted to do another body of work after the monkeys and i actually
thought i was going to do a series of little of girls and i had this girl come to the studio um in la after doing a big dog shoot for the cover of los angeles magazine and so light was all set up and i and then her little brother was there and i
photographed him and he just started crying because he had him take his shirt off and that was like right after the the uh inauguration of george w bush for the second term and it was like it was like four more years oh my [ __ ] god like so this little boy looked
like he was crying and like saying that i titled it four more years and um and so i sort of wanted to do this whole series about paula you know about if the kids knew you know and i was a new mother at the time and i thought you know if if our
children knew you know what was happening to the planet and how we were leaving it now we were [ __ ] things up you know uh sorry for the language um uh then they would be really upset um and actually let me just one thing that i haven't ever put together is it's
interesting because that the generation is generation z or generation z my son's name is zed but anyway um you know that generation is actually you know it's like greta thurmberg um you know very very politically uh active so it's like the children in the in my end times photos actually did it bear
out like they grow up to be very uh active um talking about the environment and you know my own kids age but anyway so i photographed um a series um of my own my friends kids and some models in la and um i had the mothers um or sometimes the siblings of the
kid would make the kid cry or my photo assistants um but you know at the time i you know people ask how do you make them cry and i said oh we gave him a lollipop and took it away but it became like jill greenberg snatched candy from children's hands and i'm like
oh my god that's not what happened you know i didn't really yeah i didn't i did not anticipate the worldwide controversy about crying children at the time yeah because to me toddlers cry i mean the kids were you know two and a half years old and so they cry as a way to
you know communicate because they can't use their words so um you know it's it was upsetting to me to be accused of bad things um and i lost some work and really yeah and um yeah i don't know why i mean i'm not sure exactly what the deal was why it had to
be so harsh um but um there was a lot of vitriol pointed at me it was a really like an early an early you know um online mob scene um was this ultimately a series of images or part of an exhibition yes it was a personal series that um so i um i
exhibited in los angeles actually it first showed uh in a satellite art fair part of the armory show in 20 in 2006 early in the year uh and nobody and there was no controversy people were like oh cool photos nice and then this one blogger um wrote about it and he said jill
greenberg should be arrested and charged with child abuse and then it went like wildfire um everyone sort of was jumping on that bandwagon um and it was not cool um and that was when the show was up in la and um inside edition came to interview me wow yeah it was like on
the cover of like the london sunday times magazine and newspapers all over the world um it was interesting um probably a reaction you weren't anticipating right no not at all i mean you know i mean i think the images i think like the images are powerful they make you feel something they can
they're confusing for it's maybe confusing for people to feel they want if they feel protective over the end of the children um i mean it makes sense it's just you know i don't i didn't love being on the receiving end of that um like these kind of attacks which seemed honestly a bit
gendered it seemed a bit gendered if i had to say okay well i want to ask you this question because i i shared these images online because i knew whenever you see a strong emotion being exhibited by somebody in this case a small child it's going to connect with you right away and
i already can feel some of that energy resurfacing again already and my comment back to some of people who who responded to these posts on linkedin and on twitter was artists want to make you feel something you just want to live in a world where art doesn't and these were part of your
expression of art a feeling you had and a reflection all the time and i'm going to assume it wasn't like you abducted kids put them in a room and tortured them parents were involved everybody's around they kind of know the intention which is i want to capture people or children crying as a
reaction to what's happening to the political landscape right and you your own child is in it so your mind are sensitive to the needs of children and it was just like it was a small little thing to get a reaction from them yeah i mean it was literally a 300th of a second
okay 250th of a second um and you know i have contact sheets um i could go grab them show you i have contact sheets to show to show like you know this frame you know they're just like happy to do and then the next thing they're sobbing and then the next one they're
they're happy again basically i mean i mean the thing i mean yeah i didn't actually know we were going to be talking about this at depth in depth but you know like i said kids cry as a way to communicate and they cry if they want you know like you give them the
blue spoon like no i want the pink spoon you know they're acting like they're going to die they're not going to die if they don't have the pink spoon and they're not going to die if you know someone asked and actually what we were doing was we were asking for the lollipop back
we said can we have the lollipop no no you can't have a light bulb so you know it wasn't there was no snatching there was no physical interfacing with the children yeah there was like can you give us back the lollipop no i think i read your response to some of the criticism
uh on your site and i just love how you responded to it which was to equate um a very controlled environment with parents and children in a kind of a minor upsetting thing and equate that with torture cheapens the word torture and what other children have to go through and i thought that
just this is me i'm also a parent to say that that's child abuse or child torturing endangerment whatever the words they were using is to also paint a pretty privileged place of how the west views child abuse when real abuse and real torture and neglect is happening all over this country and in
the world that looks nothing like this i think the fact that you took one moment and it could have been a split second in which that existed and you through the power of photography froze it and made it last forever maybe that's where it's like we we're not used to seeing such intense
displays of emotion for really long periods of time and i i think then your art was very successful thank you thank you yeah i mean i mean i'm still i'm still happy with the work um and i think it's um you know i just i just it's unfortunate that people who you know
got so angry but like you know but like you said if it if it incites if it elicits a response an emotional response that it's doing its job yeah okay all right enough of that let's move on you want me to be happy and wild while we're talking about being attacked by being
a child abuser yay [Laughter] okay here we go um we talk about this at the office all the time because they're all aspiring photographers videographers and we're trying to take better pictures of people and they don't know yet how to work with talent so i would love for this next segment uh for
everybody who is an inspiring photographer to to kind of lean in on your many years of experience working with easy people and some of the most difficult personalities in the world including animals by the way could you give us some of uh some advice on how we can take better portraits because a
lot of times people think i'm a photographer i have the camera and they just start taking pictures and then i look at the pictures afterwards like no that's that's not what you're trying to do so can you give us five five of your best tips on how to become a better portrait photographer
or take better portraits okay five i don't know let's see i would say or more okay well i would say that um you know the first thing that i mean actually i just started teaching at brown which is crazy which was interesting uh last last semester and i was teaching portrait photography and
i what we were doing was what i thought was really important was you start when you start photographing somebody you know i don't like you don't you shouldn't over direct them right away you should sort of you know say you have them sit down on a chair or something that might be fine
you know if you want to sort of set the whole scene figure out where they're going to be where the light is all that kind of stuff where that's going to be the most flattering but in the beginning you don't want to over direct them because that's going to completely ruin the mood
you want to you know you don't say oh turn your head that way and look over at me like that'll that'll ruin the mood so what i what i would say is just sort of the main thing that i like to do is and i'm not really that loud when i thought about
people or i don't i don't over direct unless i need to direct later is i like it's about the energy between you and the person so you want to just there has to be an energy of trust um and you want them you know they have to know that you want them that
you want them to look good so number one is you know don't over direct them in the beginning um number two is um make sure that the light is the most flattering light possible aka the kind of light that i have right here on me because that's what i do um bounced off
of a big white board um bounced light is super super flattering um i just have a light bounced into a big huge a big foam cord for my studio um and you wanna maybe i mean obviously you know from a little bit from a higher angle is flattering um i i tend to
generally not shoot people from a higher angle for my portraits i like to be like a little bit underneath them because i like them to look um like iconic and powerful and just the way that the way that your eye goes towards the subject if it's i don't know it's just the way
that i like to be you can also you can be from above like this the way i'm shooting myself um what else um i always look for what their best side is um i always i always am looking for you know what people's best angle is you know maybe some people look really
great straight on maybe some people look better from uh three-quarters of profile um so i you know i look for each individual person you know the person's face and and see what's what's their best uh most compelling angle um and oh and then i mean i don't know finally you know this might
just be four um i really think it's important um gesture in an image i think that that the way that somebody's holding themselves and like the way that they're leaning or the way that um just gesture in terms of you know how paintings are always you know like it's just you know it's
it it adds um emotion and energy to an image to you know to add you know somebody an angle i'm demonstrating are you demonstrating this entire time i think you've given us like 50 poses yeah yep okay look at that it's so meta you're so mad at jill so meta yeah multitasking yes
you are so big bounce light make it look flattering the eye line a little bit higher in terms of the camera and then looking for their best side and always gesturing and finding gesture i mean it could just be you know it could just be yeah i need help with that yeah just
loosening up oh you have to tell them to take a big take you know if they're all like you'd be like relax your eyes like i actually did this thing right like my eyes are too big you know i look insane crazy eyes so you have to sort of like almost sort of
like go to sleep a little with your eyes and then and then um smize and then but just relax you know you have to take a deep breath just chill out you know because otherwise people are like really stressed out sometimes you know mm-hmm that's it those are my tips okay those are
awesome tips i have some follow-up questions for you how do you determine what somebody's best angle is what are you looking for what are you thinking about when the person's moving around and you're looking i mean you know that's i guess my subjective view of beauty or what looks good um i'm just
i'm a huge fan of faces i just love faces and i draw them forever i just love faces so you just see what's the most flattering you know like you just you just look it's just looking and i'm just analyzing and looking to see just the same way that you know how do
i how do you determine what's what font to use next to what other font or whatever how big to make it it's just it's a visual decision so you just you look at it and you you evaluate and you say like oh this is like i happen to think i look better with
my head kind of back because maybe my face is too long so like it sort of makes it shorter so like um so i tend to photograph myself sometimes leaning my head back um and actually for the longest time i thought this was my better side but i actually think maybe i don't
know it's hard to know but you just look you just look and you evaluate does that make sense you just you see like or you know sometimes it could be completely obvious if somebody has like a big double chin and actually here's another tip for people with double chin okay you this and
this seems really weird but you you have them like sort of stick their head out a little like here's here this is me like at a normal angle like parallel to the camera you sort of like stick your head out a little like that or lean forward a teeny bit because then it
sort of masks that if they have a double chin right that's another guess when i'm talking a great tip i guess when i'm talking to my team about how to light and get photos and videos to look better is to look at the faces like architecture yes we want good separation we want
nice lines and the thing that drew me to the image of john stuart was god that's just so architectural like the nose and the planes and it's sculptural and i'm looking for that so when people have soft parts like a chin or whatever you can maybe help it with lighting or just lean
forward or stretch this part out or shorten the forehead or lengthen the chin whatever it is so that the architecture and the symmetry and the beauty and the balance according to your eye and your training then it kind of fits a certain kind of aesthetic yeah exactly yeah it is it is and
it is very sculptural and architectural um i mean i love i love graphic design and i look at things in terms of composition and balance and and lines all the time that's exactly what i'm doing now you said you don't want to over direct people at the beginning because uh just let them
do their thing and kind of figure out what they're doing and then when you have to give direction can you share some um ways of phrasing it because we we hear hollywood fake versions of it like when photographers like oh you're a tigress austin yeah austin paris yeah yeah so but what's the
real photographer saying to someone who's not not a professional model or actor actress well everyone has i mean it really varies and i i only know how i do it um and like i said i'm pretty quiet um i sort of you know i sort of liken it to like you know vulcan
mind meld like i don't know i mean it's not like i'm commanding them with you know i'm just sort of i just i don't know uh i mean i kind of i say oh can you you know would you mind turning turning to the left and looking over at me you know you
just ask them to do it in a nice way um sometimes i demonstrate that's probably why i'm like sort of subconsciously doing demonstrating everything i do um yeah you just you just ask but you try to you try to make you want to make sure that you know what you're like you don't
want to change your mind you want to be like actually you know what forget it turn the other way you know you don't want to you know that would be bad it can be bad if they think that you know what the [ __ ] you're doing okay that's two now everybody pick
your second drink yeah yeah let's drink every time just says f the f word okay um so you're you don't want to create this impression that you're nervous you're anxious or you don't know what you're doing because that then it's gonna it's gonna go downhill from there right but you're giving direction and
i see that you must be doing those all the time because you're like i'll try this and you're you're you're going to i think naturally they're going to mirror you anyways as you do your thing and they're like oh i get it so i guess that's why you're striking 100 poses while we're
talking yeah yeah i feel uncomfortable like i feel like i i got to work now who's here no no i mean but yeah i do mirror there's a sort of a vibe that goes back and forth and energy goes back and forth not to sound you know hippy-dippy but the energy is all
the energy's real you know all that stuff is super important the energy in a room if people are happy and good music and i was saying you know a photo shoot is like a party you know you have to have good music and good food and good good time you know everyone has
to be sort of having fun and friendly and nice so that you get you know you get a nice shot everything there's not like tension in the room or anybody being mean to anybody else or something like that it's all it all has to be good like a party mm-hmm so the party
there's there's music is there also adult beverages no no hello no well i don't really drink that much but um adult beverages i mean i don't think no one really drinks not that on my shoots i mean i don't know i mean that makes you drinking doesn't make you makes you look like
puffy and bad anyway oh okay because i was gonna shoot with a photographer really famous photographer and she's working with a lot of people who are introverts and kind of awkward and weird and they're super stiff so she's doing it she's pulling every trick out of the bag like let's put on some
music let's try this and they were loosening up but it still wasn't working so it's like here have a sip of this and then she got her shot someone huh okay that's interesting yeah yeah um sure that works um you know i just try to find something that we can talk about in
common um and if that's needed or you know sometimes it's you know because i've been working for so long and i have a lot of a lot of work in my portfolio i can show them you know some work just so they they trust me they can see what i'm going to do
like this is this is how we're going to make you look so that's always good okay i have a bunch more questions but i want to prompt our audience right now if you have a question go ahead and drop it in the chat jonah and i will do our best while we're talking
to jill to ask those questions for you so i'm going to read a couple of them for you right now so now our new rika is saying in her opinion the crying children series is brilliant the message is way ahead of its time uh here's a lollipop to you jill and she little
lollipop thank you my wife is watching she's like tell jill she's beautiful you are beautiful and for her to look in the camera like a model so give me a little soft connection here look in the camera look in the camera look at the camera we want to see you okay all right
so the other question i have for you is this is um if in terms of like your own creative process so somebody's there are you constantly firing off the shot are you looking with your eyes first and waiting for that moment and then pulling the trigger um i mean it's a combination but
uh and and things have changed since you know shooting film uh i mean i should just talk about digital but you know i can say that shooting digital is different than shooting film shooting film you're a little bit more conservative in terms of just you're not you know you're not going to just
go you know because it's film um so with digital you do i mean i do shoot more uh i'll show you a lot more but you're not going to you don't want to shoot a picture you know it's bad um sometimes i'll you know shoot like an off moment even if there's a
person in that i think maybe can get retouched out if it's like a you know if i think there's a moment but uh i mean it's a combination of just feeling like you just know when it's the good time to shoot this is very nitty-gritty this is a very nitty-gritty interview about photography
it's interesting i wasn't expecting it i don't know what we i didn't i don't know what i thought we were going to talk about but it's fine it's good okay at least i can answer i can answer all the questions what question would you ask yourself um if i was interviewing me i
would say i don't know i mean that's too hard a question okay i retract my question yeah no i mean it was i mean i just there's like a lot of different things and it's uh like what would i do what am i doing next but i'm like or what am i working
on or what do i think about xyz i don't think about the industry what do i think about the industry yeah um i think that now i think that you know the industry like everything is changing really fast things change styles change um you know that's what you know that's what's interesting about
photography and and the visual arts and um and visual communication you know like design is that trends trends change and they sort of change more quickly lately um and uh you know with photography they're just the barrier to entry you know like like in many fields is is really low now you know
you just got a dslr and um and photoshop and you know so it's not as hard to make some decent some good photos you know i think it's maybe not as it's still hard to make genius photos um but but it's definitely not as hard to make a whole bunch of really good
photos um and so [Music] so it's you know it's become that much more competitive i think my laptop's not charging but it has 28 percent wait wait oh it's because this thing came apart oh okay i will fix it right it's fixed right it's fixed that's quick um yeah i have a question
for you i'm looking at this photograph and it's not included in my slide deck here but it's of aaron eckhart he's sitting on an apple box and his collars up and his tie is undone and he's looking somewhat casually like at the beginning or the end of a long day and i look
at this photo and i'm trying to figure out what was jill doing in this moment to get this photo was that like hey aaron i want you to try this thing sit down there or aaron's like hey when are we going to shoot you know like that's the moment how did this happen
that photo i mean yeah that photo is from 2007 i think but um that photo was uh he was just working it he knew what to do and he was sort of behaving he was just like sort of he knew how to pose for photos so i didn't actually direct that much of
that picture he just he did it himself he sort of mm-hmm i mean i sort of i created this you know i had him sit down apple box but um but he he knew what to do and so he did that himself did he ask you like hey can i try a couple
things or no it was just sort of like it was just like it just flowed it just happened that way he's a pro i'm a pro we're just like let's do this thing it just happens it just happened okay it just happens huh all right okay okay i'm going to read a question
here and i think this is a question that a lot of people might have on their mind this one's coming from 0-1-1 i'm sure that's their real name i've been shooting for a long time and i'm very happy with my work but i don't know how to start working with brands i really
don't understand do i need to get an agent or something and i think there's a whole bunch of people in the same category here um hmm let's see uh things are like things are different than when i started but i started without an agent and i sort of ate i repped myself and
i think i think it's really good to rep yourself when you learn then you realize all the things that an agent needs to do um you know you realize um i mean because even if you have an agent there's so much of it that is your is your relationship anyway and and yeah
i mean you still have to do a ton of a ton of legwork yourself and you need to do a lot of a lot of self-promotion all that kind of stuff so in terms of working with brands um you know you can go direct to brands i mean i don't you could reach
out i mean nowadays you could like reach out to like a social media manager at a brand via instagram probably and right um and you don't need an agent for that an agent probably doesn't want to deal with that because you know it might be like a lower end money job or something
um if you wanted to start doing their social uh their their their social media feed or something um so yeah now i wouldn't say that you need you should necessarily just start with an agent and expect the agents going to do everything for you i think it's good to try to do figure
out yourself through linkedin or through i don't know reach out that way okay so you're saying like on these brands it's uh the social media manager is actually reading the comments so you could slip into their dms and say like what's up and build a relationship that way i mean i haven't done
that [Laughter] um i should do that i haven't done that because usually you know the the the people doing the instagram feed i'm just saying that's like an entry level thing like you don't necessarily want to i mean i'm happy you know some instagram doing somebody's social images it depends on the the
brand and if they have they might you know they might have a social agency in fact you know the person you the person that you might reach through dming them uh is they'll be like oh so-and-so agency does our social so please reach out to them um and and then you could meet
then you'd meet with that you know the agency that does their digi does their social and then you do it that way but uh oh wait but so do you sorry the other way is just you know going to ad agencies you don't need an agent to go to an ad agency you
just go to you talk you call the art buyers at the ad agency and say you want to show your portfolio that's how you do it and you don't need an agent to do that right so for people who don't know how how do they find out the name and the contact information
of the art buyer um you would have to you could you could subscribe to a mailing list you could there's all these different services um that have all the contact information of all the clients and um you you pay to have access to that mailing list so that you can mail them you
know photo postcards or email them or call them yeah you have to pay to get access to that information um or you can call the ad agency and ask if they'll send you the names of their art buyers or you can look on linkedin for the names of the art buyers and then
call information and get the name get the phone number and call them that way you do that okay that makes sense yeah there's probably a lot of people who have no idea what you're talking about i used to work in advertising so i know exactly what you're talking about so let me break
this down for those people who are not sure so a lot of the high-end commercial photography is usually commissioned from an advertising agency and there's a person literally their title is art buyer and that's who you want to talk to and build a relationship with now if you have a rep the rep
has these relationships already and already knows who to mail your stuff to and send your portfolio and they're always listening for like new campaigns so if xyz agency wins a certain account and they know that they need a photographer for a certain campaign they're in it all the time they're just whining and
dining and doing countless meetings showing books and things like that but you can do it even though jill is an introvert she's done it herself you i think you can literally call the reception the main line and just say can i get the i'm a photographer can i get the name of the
art buyer and the contact information and then you just call back another day or you can call back that same day and you can do it that way so if you don't have money to buy an email or name or a directory or list i don't think they're terribly expensive but that's the
cost of entry for in some cases right and then it's your job then to not overwhelm them but have something that's memorable that is in their hands usually a postcard a poster or something something notable so that they're like okay when i have a gig and i need this kind of style aesthetic
or person then they'll consider you but you got to stay on top of that because i imagine that's a lot of work to stay on top of yeah it is okay and let's just go back in the heyday here back in the heyday when somebody commissioned you to take a photo what kind
of budgets are we talking about and what does that kind of look like can you paint a picture back in there back in the 80s like that back in the late 90s in advertising industry yeah um i mean let's talk about the heyday of the editorial industry although honestly i mean i wasn't
working for clients for that we're doing you know 200 000 editorial shoots but even like someone doing a 50 000 editorial shoot you know a magazine cover with a budget of 50 or 60 000 is unheard of now um you have a budget of 3 000 all in including everything sometimes um but
uh the the a budget for an ad job you know yeah two or three hundred thousand dollars it could be more um i mean there are still there are still big jobs now you know some of the entertainment um you know netflix hulu um hbo i mean those those have definitely changed in
the past three four five years as well and gone down just everyone's budgets have gone down um but there used to be huge you know multi-day million dollar productions um for for uh for entertainment projects um i mean i don't know what what more detail inside inside secrets well when you say like
an entertainment gig like what does that look like what is i i'm not familiar with like an image that's not coming in my mind so when you say like there's high six figures uh seven figure gigs for entertainment types of assignments what is that is that like a movie poster yeah a movie
poster like yeah like i went you know up to toronto to shoot the carrie movie poster with chloe grace moretz and we did like seven lighting setups pre-light we had a pre-light day and a shoot day um i shot julian moore which was cool and um that was just yeah it's julian moore
and chloe uh grace moretz and um i don't actually know what the budget was because there was a producer you know but i know you know that was a big one and i um was i did handmaid's tale up in toronto as well and uh i did a parent a street for paramount
last year the year before like that was like 80 different setups which was insane you don't you don't have access to those pictures but yeah the handmade styles was nice because that was shot up there on their set um and uh yeah what else what other questions do you have about that um
like that i don't know how it works or that was i mean that i did that with an agency and the network so there are sort of two clients sunset in a way um you shoot all the different cast members and a bunch of different setups um sometimes the agency has uh lighting
references for you so for the handmaid's tale it was nice because they had this really sort of soft bounce it's not really soft lighting which at the time um i wasn't really doing that really soft lighting and that was sort of you know uh it was nice that they hired me for that
even though i don't i wasn't doing that lighting but then i but i did the lighting for the job and it you know looked really great and i sort of fell in love with that really soft bounce lighting um for certain things just sort of adding another lighting style to my repertoire which
was fun okay so here's two more questions coming in from the chat and it's coming from two different people but i think i can bundle it together to make one question out of it it's coming from earl and jr so erl and jr asking essentially like what was the some what is the
most difficult gig you've ever done and what's one of your favorites um the most difficult i think the most difficult was the one this one i did for um for paramount pictures where i shot 70 different setups in one day and it it was crazy because we actually had a run through and
it was put all different angles all different lighting like six or seven different actors something from like a really high thing something like through plexi just through on stairs like they were supposed to be sort of compton to various everything was gonna be done in post so i was shooting everybody on white
but it was um there was a mil there were so many layouts and at one point we did a um we timed it and we like we sort of ran through the whole shoot with like a stopwatch it was insane to see like how many hours it's gonna take how many things can
we can we fit this all in um and that so that was i mean i've you know i've shot i've done things where i've shot you know 180 people's portraits in two days um but those are just sort of headshots and that's relatively straightforward um but shooting you know full length from all
different angles with all different lenses and all different styles of lighting set like 70 of those was a lot that was crazy it was i felt like i'd accomplished something um to pull something off like that are you blocking and framing out shots with your assistants and production assistants and so as you're
doing one somebody's working on number two and number three so that when you're done with this like somebody else hand you another camera another lens and you're ready to go is that how it works there was some you know there was some stuff with different cameras different lenses uh or more like just
mostly different lenses um no we actually had uh body double actors wearing the same wardrobe um so that we could you know run lighted on these other people because yeah you need to light it you need to light it with the person not your assistant i mean assistant obviously is in many cases
who who's standing or myself or something like that a lot of times i'd like to do to test the lighting on me because i know exactly what i look like and um and i know what looks good on me or what doesn't look good on me and um and also like i'm older
and a lot of times like i don't want like some 20 year old standing in like oh they look amazing because they're 20 and they're a guy with like a cute haircut you know but like you know i'm over 50 and so if it looks good on me then we're good so okay
since you brought that up i have to ask you this question how does the lighting change for somebody who's older versus somebody who's like 19. um well someone who's older looks good with this lighting um diffused really soft big you know big bounce light sort of center like centered and outside not sighty
sidey is a city's a photo word that makes a made-up word um but um and um and somebody who's 19 can have any light from any direction except for if they're like not really if they don't really have that kind of a face then you want to cheat more towards something like this
or something um from directly from the front or or uh maybe like backlit and everything's very soft and open in the front like like backlit from the sun or so their face is sort of all an open shade kind of thing um do you think in terms of a lighting setup that the
the ring light that circular thing that people shoot through is that generically like the the easiest on anybody's face like good ugly old young you just put them in there yes ring light is very flattering because it lights you evenly all around it under lights you like see from every angle it's like
yeah the ring light is very flattering mm-hmm for sure except for the the catch or the highlight right the reflection cause you have little cheery eyes yeah but it's cute you don't like it no it looks a little alien yeah okay yeah all right we got through those questions jonah is there anything
else that you think we need to tackle before i ask my other questions jonah are you scanning the comments yeah there was one uh okay oh as a very well-known photographer do you still deal with clients trying to get you for less than what you're worth or what you quote of course of
course yeah it's the photo industry how do you respond to that it depends if you want to do the job i mean everything's you know rates continue to sort of go down and it's just a question of working is better than not working and um if it's something that if it's something that
you want to do because it's cool creative i mean if it's if it's something that you know it's i i really like working and i think most a lot of photographers so the thing is you know a lot of photographers are basically gonna kind of say yes they're not gonna say no because
they everyone loves to work everyone likes to take photos um you never know where something's gonna lead um even something that you know you doesn't pay as well you know maybe you'll end up with some genius photo that leads to something else later for doing that job so it's really it's kind of
it kind of most photographers don't say no they're gonna always say yes and that's the reason that rates have gone down um because there's not a union for photographers so everyone would rather shoot for free than not shoot at all so it's not not a secret but it's very problematic it's incredibly problematic
problematic and it's the way that industry has you know sort of eaten itself it's been its own worst enemy because you know maybe in the 90s you know something an ad agency would have to pay like you know around 18 000 for an image to license an image for um one you know
one or two year consumer print north america and now you'll be lucky if you get twenty thousand dollars for the entire shoot the entire shoot of like a library shoot of the whole shoot for unlimited usage so you know i don't it depends on how many shots are in your shoot but that's
like that's like you know thousands of thousand percent reduction in fees yeah it's it's the way it is that's not entirely encouraging jill i'm sorry might tell the truth you might tell the truth i do i didn't say i might i do tell them no i do tell the truth and maybe that's
why people think i'm difficult because i'm very honest and straightforward yeah well i i so it's the nature of the creative person to to want to be able to express themselves in the art form and whether somebody's paying or not seems to be icing on the cake and it's that very nature that
undermines our ability to make a living so on on one shelf the top shelf it's jill and her her peers and then their shells lower than that and we understand that right so if you get some kid out of school it's going to be one price and if you want jill it's going
to be at this price but when your peers start taking them it's like that top shelf got a little bit lower and it keeps getting lower and lower until there's you're through the floor i mean at some point maybe you're even paying to do the shoot like i'll cover the cost of my
assistant it's like what what are we doing here right because the nature is you want to express yourself yeah what's the remedy to that because it's in it it's a part of who we are and we don't think there is a remedy there's no remedy so we're screwed there is no remedy we
are screwed it's over okay [Laughter] right there yes yes okay done my goodness can you give us a little hope oh i mean there's always there's always there's always going to be they're always going to be you know new exciting photographers coming out that are yeah you know and hopefully you know just
the problem there's these corporations they always want to like sort of cut they'll find like you know of course reduce the bottom line so it's it's about the relationship that you have with your client and you want you know you want the client to try to be fair to you and you know
it's not their money it's the corporation's money and you just want everyone hopefully that they treat you with respect and they they might they might know they can get away with x but they want to be nice to you and give you wire i don't know i mean i'm not really sure what
the solution is i really don't um i you know i wish that that photographers were allowed to unionize but we're not um and and because we're not you know there's like it's not like the direct it's not like if you're a director and there's a director's guild and you get fifteen thousand dollars
a day to shoot something if you're in the guild if you're in union and that's the story you have to get that fifty thousand dollars no one's gonna be like well you know can we just do 12 be like if you're in the union it's a mandated number and so it'd be really
it'd be amazing if and especially because the trend towards corporations who you know taking all of your rights like you know making it work for transfer of copyright work for hire um and so if if we're doing transfer of copyright work for hire at what point are we allowed to unionize i mean
actually i i've spoken to some people and that's not the reason that we're not allowed to unionize this because we're independent contractors um and i know they're i'm not i'm pretty knowledgeable about it but i'm not fully knowledgeable and i'm also not that active but there's you know there's some photographers who go
to washington and try to they they try to work with uh the lawmakers to try to try to make us to try to allow photographers to unionize because obviously it would be in all of our best interests if we could sort of set a floor you know a magazine cover pays a thousand
dollars whatever right uh an advertisement pays five thousand dollars you know even if you could have that those numbers that like that floor that would be amazing but we don't even have that so people will work for pennies because they're like oh i get to shoot so and so i get to say
i shot with this brand and right you know and it's sort of a never-ending you know i do it for the exposure for until you're 99 years old yikes so i don't know why you you know you should have done a pre-interview because then you'd know what i was going to say i
love it i love it so i'm just gonna keep going with you here just know okay i think we we owe it to our guests you to be able to speak your truth and share your point of view and we're not gonna sugarcoat it if you have good news to share great if
you don't have such good news that's fine too it sounds to me like most creative industries need a governing body to help them protect themselves from themselves it's like if we said this is the least that you can charge if you belong to this or we'll throw you out and if you mean
if you hold the line if you will and then that way your prices and your value won't erode but it's it's indicative of almost every creative industry that i can think of that doesn't have a guild or union there is no bottom the bottom is negative whatever yeah right people will buy projects
now they'll pay you to do the project because they they need something on their portfolio they want to work with a certain brand or a personality and it it's terrible it is it's a shame with no solution i don't think there is one it really is a shame it really is okay so
i want to summarize here jill is saying do not get into photography it's over time [Laughter] um it's not over it's just harder than ever and um but if you're like a genius if you're really really good and you want to work 24 7 forever and always i thought we were going to
talk about i thought we were going to talk about like iterating and and keeping up with the the styles and keeping up with the trends but okay let's just change change the entire thing you're like what's that over there let's look over there yeah let's talk about that now yeah so i i
i would then offer up this um maybe traditional photography in the way that we used to know it and in the heyday the 90s when all kinds of money was being thrown around and you were in control of what was going on that was fantastic it's the rise of social media instagram camera
phones and the lowering of expectations of what a good photo consists of accessibility i mean it used to be you'd have to like learn how to develop process film and you could have what 36 shots and then you get next roll so you really think about what you're doing now it's like a
thousand shots no problem dump it on a drive but a new opportunity has opened up i think in that a photographer or image maker with a large enough audience is now becoming a brand into themselves and that photography is just one part of how they leverage it i have a friend who's a
professional photographer get this is gonna probably make you skin crawl she only shoots on her iphone and she commands tens of thousands of dollars based on the community her authenticity as a working photographer mom and that's what she brings to the table so we're leveraging things not just the image not just the
rights right so it's just i bring my community my tribe with me can you respond to that no i think that's great and i think i think yeah i mean it i don't want to sound like i'm stuck in that oh you know when things were better i mean because there are things
that you know i just today got it i just um i mean i love how i love you know it's sad that there's not as much money and whatever but but i do love all the new opportunities you know i just got a little a little gig to do a paid post on
my instagram which i i've only well it's my second one um but i only am doing it because it turns out there's like some some nice um overlap it's actually my friend's project that i'd be promoting so it's kind of crazy um but you know there's instagram you know instagram is great uh
for so many reasons and um i'm started working with a new social media platform that's actually paying it's going to be paying people for content it's paying me for content right now um but it's going to be it's on it's involves the blockchain so it's paying i'm not it's uh you know i
mean maybe in some in the future people will be paid for their social media posts through this one through this one platform that i'm working with it's called voice.com and um yeah i am paid to work with them so i guess that was a paid endorsement i'm not endorsing it but i'm just
mentioning it um but uh but i think but i do think actually that photographers have been a brand have been their own brand forever i think you know photography is like an interesting field where you know you you know within the industry photographers get yeah they get famous and they you get become
certain like if you photograph celebrities then somehow you're more famous by association which is right or whatever but um so photographers were always a brand into themselves but but now you know bringing a community and saying that you're a working mom that's a different that's a you know definitely stepping it up a
level which is which is great because it is all of those things i mean it is um all those things do factor in and um and when it's something is sort of wholesome and often and nice like a working mother um i think that's much more appealing than like some sort of nasty
you know male fashion photographer who's taking advantage of his subjects you know right as those people used to be the the people that we looked up to in the industry and people sort of ignored all the bad stuff to be like oh that person's so fabulous um but you know things are becoming
a lot more things are being more equitable and a little bit more they're improving okay i think now right so we went from a dark dark place and we're coming into the light here on this one and let's get you all the way into the full light here the question i have for
you is this is i'm i get this feeling it's nothing more than a feeling that photographers of your stature and i have many friends who are really high-end photographers for product and architecture and other kinds of things but they've been slow to to adapt they're not on the gram like they should be
so then the general response from these photographers that used to remember a time when it was better they cursed and scream at instagram and the rise of the instagram influencer and these kids who are getting paid decent money to do this thing that they weren't trained to do i'm just wondering why photographers
who should be dominating a platform like instagram aren't and not active not posting uh not being transparent still kind of locking every image and it's just like it's almost like they make it really hard to share their imagery right no i think that's your take on this that's interesting i mean like you
mentioned you know when i started doing photoshop yeah there were a lot of photographers like oh that's just i'm not we're going to learn photoshop that's gross i don't know what that is um and you know i love technology and i love learning new things and i love pushing pushing the tools you
know to their limit and seeing what's new so i've you know i had a website in 1995 that razorfish did um i just emailed them i was like hi can you do my website i saw you danny clinch's website and i you know so i'm still friends with them and you know it's
pretty funny that uh so i mean i've just always been interested in in technology and and you can't i mean i feel bad that i'm not doing tick-tock one of my one of my brown students was like are you gonna get on tick-tock more and i'm like oh my god okay fine yeah
i have to get on tick-tock now right do a little dance you know i don't know but um you would dominate i mean i think it could be good i'm i'm sort of i think i'm better like in a screen than i am like in maybe in real life i don't know but
um but i you know i can control the lighting it's better yeah and and i yeah sometimes i mean i like doing live instagrams of like my shoots or um you know uh i think it's fun and and you know i like i said i've always enjoyed um new tech new platforms i
had a tumblr based website really early on and that was really cool i could see everyone reblogging you know my portfolio and um and uh i mean i'm not on everything i'm not on uh twitter as much anymore um you sort of have to pick your battles i know i use there's just
a lot on twitter and tech talk and instagram and that well now i'm doing voice and i have to post on voice and um and then there's like just making work and then like doing other stuff like uh just general i do my own retouching a lot so that takes time and um
which i and i love doing it so it's all fine and then and then i've been working on a lot of personal art stuff so um so yeah it's i don't know i didn't twitter twitter just got to it fell down right away i hear it's not a total love affair for me
either but uh and it seems like much of a political a political thing and then you feel sort of it's oh yeah and then you just sort of feel like an idiot you're like say something like nobody says anything you're like why am i even on here it feels it feels bad when
nobody retweets my tweets that's not good no i get i get it okay i'm gonna ask you an easy question and then i'm gonna show an image and i'm gonna ask you another question that's maybe not as easy but here's the easy question from jude anthony he wants to know he she i'm
not sure jude is asking what's your go-to camera and lens of choice my go-to camera is my hasselblad uh i think it's an h5 with my phase um 100 megapixel back with a 210 millimeter lens um with sometimes with an extension tube on it a little extension tube which makes it good for
close-ups okay um hasselblad is that a medium format yeah medium format digital helmet okay digital okay and you said 210 ml lens yeah so you're pretty far back from your subject then i am except for if i'm using the extension tube i can get closer um but those are that's for portraits but
but right even for full length i am really far away and it's it's kind of weird but that's that's what i've been doing lately long lens long lens shallow depth of field and that's also more flattering right less distortion yes exactly it's really flattering and that's impressive yeah long length creep up on
me with the 20 mil lens i'm like what are you doing step back change that lens you're not helping this face here come on okay noted so that's that's a segue for this image right here okay i'm gonna show you an image i'd like for you to tell us the story behind the
image okay that's um that's a bear that i photographed in um calgary canada um shot on film um i that's my my bear series i called it earth sign like like bovine or canine that's the latin term of her bear bear like um and um i built a stage painted it gray like
a floor and a back wall a really big one and we brought in generators and lights and um there's actually some behind the scenes of me shooting this bear series uh i think it's on amazon because i did a book you can probably just google it bear portraits the book was called bear
portraits the real book and then like the art series the my exhibition was called earth sign because i like to make things difficult apparently um but uh the monkeys were just called monkey portraits no the bears are only the ones that have two different names because people didn't want the book people didn't
want to call it or sign they're like people aren't going to know what that is um so that's fine um what's the story i know the bear just did that that bear just uh in that specific picture the bear just did that um and uh it's lit you know with a whole bunch
of lights and it's retouched so it's a negative so it's been drum scanned and then i retouched it too like i sort of added that i had sort of some shine on the fur and uh some shine on the nose and the shine in the claws and um yeah the background was gray
but when i scanned the bears and some of the monkeys and the crying children the other all the children were photographed on gray seamless but um in the process of drum scanning and setting the colors the backgrounds became that sort of cyan color which was nice um so that yeah you you take
a lot of amazing animal portraits and thank you i look at them and at first you think is this taxidermy like what is going like how is she getting these images so i think you work with an animal trainer right so uh this bear looks super dangerous like i just look at those
claws and it's a big one yeah and and i see you and i'm like oh my god this this animal in the wild will tear you apart so tell me tell me a little bit about behind the scenes what's happening where did it go oh yeah the polar bear yeah there's a problem
right there right behind you yeah yeah it's gonna get me um the bears are brought up those bears were brought up um i went i was living in l.a at the time and um i went up to canada where there were these close contact bears owned owned by this woman named ruth uh
and she um she she raised the bears from when they were bear cubs and they thought that she was their mom so they were they were pretty well behaved there was one bear that you could go kiss if you wanted to kiss a bear um but generally you don't want to be kissing
bears and you don't you know but there's there are people there's a hot wire um they didn't turn the hot wear on but and the bears could have jumped over the hot wire but i think they're they were trained they were trained to stay away from the hot wire you know to not
touch it and not jump over it because they would get electrocuted i think they were sort of trained that they would get shocked if they touched the hot wire if they went over it so they were behind the hot wire i kept being like lower the hot wires in the picture but right
they didn't do that um and uh yeah there were some some handlers but i mean nobody had like a stun gun it was i don't know it actually it was pretty safe it seemed pretty safe the grizzly bear is more dangerous but she was she was okay too okay i mean one time
i photographed a cow and the cow just like ran towards me and then ran up that almost ran out of studio but the door was closed but um but uh the cow that was like the closest call was like the pound because i was sitting here i was the closest call but how
was the closest call i mean although although i had when i was shooting a horse one time it kind of flipped out and that didn't really flip out it just sort of like kind of walked away it didn't run away it maybe maybe knocked over a little fence that we had sort of
fit in but it was fine the horses were actually really dangerous too because horses are prey so horses are not that smart and they're prey and and animals that are predators if you can sort of like be cool with them then they're cool with you because they know that they can kill you
right they they know they're bigger than you they're not jumpy right but prey like a horse is jumpy and it's like wait are you going to kill me i don't know like i'm going to run i'm going to kick you in the head because i don't know so so it's so photographing predators
is a little bit it's a little bit safer because you can just yeah rock look over cool that's really interesting it's counterintuitive so yeah i'm kind of looking at this like you know these are dangerous animals even the ones that aren't not dangerous predators yet you let's let's go hang out at a
bear farm with the and you're putting your your life literally in this other person's hands in their relationship with the animals and animals do freak out and then they they put this hot wire between you and them just to add a layer of protection but just so that the bare things do not
cross outline but you're saying easily the bear could jump over it it's not even on yes and so there's this moment and do you feel that energy when you're there like you could kind of be in danger or not at all i mean not really and also just photographers do really dumb things
to get the shot i mean that's pretty clear i mean i've sit in the middle of the street to get the shot yeah like you just care about getting the shot you don't care if you're gonna get run over by a car um so like when i did some i've done i've done
a couple shoots where i was scuba diving um and i had this well i had to sort of scuba pro who was a photographer work with me because i mean i'm certified scuba diver but i'm not i don't skip it up that much anymore and um and like when you're trying to focus
on getting the shot you could like forget to breathe or you know run out of air or something so so it's good to have somebody like that to make sure that you don't die when you're just sitting at the bottom of a pool okay i want to show you another photo and i'd
love to hear the story behind this photo here we go okay um yeah that was a really big shoot that was the cast of orange is the new black um we i photographed little clusters of people um the light was really really close to the people to make that really soft pretty light
so um which i couldn't have done if i had shot it in i mean if it was in camera you know so each little cluster of person had were lit really well um individually um the uh there were some lights that the whole thing is inside a sound stage but there were lights
um this was it was shot by strobe um but there were some sort of continuous hot lights that the for the film for the tv production which i really liked the quality of the light coming through the windows so um and even hitting the floor so i photographed i did a plate a
background plate with the really nice ambient lighting that the um the show had designed uh and then i then i actually did not do the post on this picture uh the compositing so somebody at the agency who was working for netflix did the compositing of this image okay so yeah again the breakdown
is there's a plate which is the background and all the stuff that's in there and then you're individually lighting for each person so that they look clusters groups groups like groups of like three yeah three or four i see like the ones around the table that are that would be a cluster maybe
yeah and then how do you know who's gonna sit and stand where so that it all comes back together that was um this was mapped out i don't think i i did not map out this uh formation i think um it was we we worked on it with body doubles and everyone had
a had a place everyone so the agency the designer i think who worked on this um i think sort of mapped it out pretty carefully i think his name is robert russell he mapped it out and um everything knew the whole formation so we when we shot the body doubles we knew that
we're you know this body double represents you know taylor shilling you know laura prepon so we everyone it was all mapped out exactly how it was supposed to work i see okay uh any funny anecdotes on this one like something unexpected happen or i mean the thing is the thing is with these
anecdotes and you know all the really good stuff i can't tell you i cannot tell you oh wow don't tease us like that should have just said come on i mean also like episode two you can't tell us any anecdotes are you uh under non-disclosure or something no but it's like you know
if there was any kind of drama or this or that or or that's what we're here for no no maybe like when i'm dying call me back in like 40 years that's when all the time okay yeah you can abstract the names and the details i mean there's nothing there's no like really
funny stories on that [ __ ] no okay all right uh i think my tough questions are over jonah do you have a question from the chat let me try to find one here uh oh okay okay what do you mean by um the title keep your eyes open and that was not
my title oh really about keeping your eyes open i thought you said about that no it's not my title i thought jonah said got it from you i saw it in the emails i asked is that what i did i say that yeah i don't know i think i just okay maybe it
feels like you said it joe i'm pretty sure okay fine maybe i said it i think i just with any working in any kind of commercial fine commercial working in a visual field basically you have to always be paying attention to the newest trends the newest technology you know you can't just hide
like a turtle and say like you know like your friends saying lamenting instagram or lamenting iphones i mean it is what it is you know iphones can be great for a lot of things um uh you cannot you can't hide from uh things changing in progress you know i mean obviously you know
i don't love like you know that there's a sort of a race to the bottom in terms of fees that's besides that progress is progress and um social media platforms and it's it is it's the way it is you can't you know so just make the best out of it and um and
figure out how to make it work for you um yeah there's always going to be they're going to continue to things you know you know what i was saying is iterate and you know for me you know i kind of have an approach i think i have a lot of different styles a
lot of different things um that i do but you know you sort of have to see what's what the trends are and you know take take pieces of them you know incorporate the energy incorporate um you know if you know maybe things are like less a little bit less staged and more like
authentic and natural you know so you can still have like really sort of controlled lighting but you might want like more of a loose pose or something like that um you know they're just i'm saying that there's all different trends of in photography and you don't want to like be like okay well
this is what everyone's doing so i'm going to just do this now you can't do that because that's not going to look that's not going to be it's not going to work but um but you do have to keep you know iterating and you do have to keep trying new things and um
you know and then you'll be you know sometimes your clients your clients will say yeah but i really just want you to do that old thing you do and you can decide if you want to do that old thing um but but i think it's important to keep doing new things and i
don't know why you wouldn't want to keep doing new things as an artist you know i love doing new things i loved you know experimenting and playing with things that you know i have like a like a list in my head of things that you know lighting approaches or things techniques or ideas
um and you know eventually do them yeah i'm in agreement with you you should want to do new things but people don't because doing new things scares people because high probability of failure so they go back to what they know and then they get stuck i think there's a quote no that's not
good yeah that uh change is inevitable but progress is a choice so we're here with iphones we're here with instagram and social media you can wish for the whole days but they're not coming back no how you choose to react to this situation will determine a lot your happiness and your success i
think and a friend of mine someone who used to work for me shooting on his iphone was contacted by apple's art buyer and they bought his image for a billboard so they plucked them relatively out of obscurity and said we love your image and we want to show off this the quality of
the camera right lo and behold i'm driving around i see his image on billboards around l.a so a universe takes something away but something else rises to replace it and it's just your ability to move from one to the other and you've been there from the beginning photoshop 1.0 and you're still evolving
and uh you're going to be on tick tock i know i can already tell dancing around i can see it already dancing around yeah i'm going to be in tic-tac-toe no but i mean instagram is great you know a lot of our buyers at apple follow me too and they bought my pictures
for a billboard too they did they did actually um it's actually a picture of me in my bra okay and you can't i know but you can't tell i'll think you don't what's going to do you need pictures i can send you you're sending to me in the dms right now no no
no i mean i could anyway okay i could show you on my phone probably yeah um everything's sort of organized um it's this i'm actually i'm trying to figure out like okay so here's the picture oh wait oh you can't tell anything no no i'm not i'm just thinking about like was i
supposed to say that this is the picture that apple licensed but that's all right it's one of these anyway if you were going to cut it was a live stream but it's like you know i can say it's like in the style of this you know whatever it's this sort of technique that
i kind of invented that you know so i just love coming up with new things i mean i'm trying to decide if that technique is like too digital for people to really like is fine art and i'm trying to figure it out because like i really like it um but you know but
i like um yeah it's cool i like playing around i think it's cool i like playing around it's like so i'm just playing around with like digital technology um yeah to do that it's fine okay i realize we're already in an hour and a half i don't wanna take it i was wondering
this is going on a long time it's going a little bit long so i have four questions i think i want to ask you so i'm going to ask you to like put yourself in like um speed round you know okay is that all right just okay because i wanna i wanna knock
these out i don't want you to think about it too much just give me your raw answer okay if you had to pick one do you identify yourself more as the commercial photographer or fine art photographer that's coming from david ko that one's really hard no thank you okay well i'll say fine
art photographer okay i got it out of you great let me ask you this question have you ever been on a set when you were just star struck because of the celebrities that you work with amazingly beautiful people that you've looked up to boom you you ever get that um a little bit
with aaron eckhart actually i just thought he was super handsome i just it was more like i thought he was handsome yeah and then would you either like play a cool jail just don't lose it we're all good yeah and i was playing cool i play cool yeah a little aloof no i'm
not gonna be aloof this isn't like a dating thing it's i mean i was married then i'm not married now so here i think we need to do another shoot yeah what are they doing what are you doing now there was no film on the camera we got to do this again it
was already on the cover of the magazine but there was no film in the camera okay right right okay here's your next question um what do you say to somebody who looks at your images and they say you must have a really nice camera i say it has nothing to do with the
camera it has to do with the eye of the photographer i mean the camera the camera can help a lot it depends on what kind of camera it is and what you're doing but that's obnoxious it is obnoxious but that's what people say right people uh no one has said that to me
or they haven't said it to my face i don't know i don't know people say people say rude things but i haven't heard of that one yet i haven't heard that one two questions left you photograph somebody that i've come to admire a lot seth godin any any stories about that i have
stories about seth godin he was my camp canoeing instructor what we yeah we were at summer camp together and he was the camp canoeing instructor okay what was this in the 80s in in ontario and at algonquin park uh outside of toronto um i went to summer camp in canada because i'm canadian
and just a lot of i grew up in michigan and there's a lot of people going to summer camp in canada um and he's from buffalo and so he was the canadian instructor and he was definitely really interesting even back in the day i remember i mean i remember him we i mean
we ran into each other at like the first behance 99 conference we both were speaking and i was like hey seth what's up like it was just funny i mean i think he's like i don't know like five or something 10 years older than me i'm not sure we have the same birthday
the same same day july 10th wow um and he's uh he was always like sort of inventing systems even then he had this the whole camp did this like a game this called the game of snaps and no one could figure i can't first of all i can't really snap my fingers but
he um he was like how do you figure out what i don't know why i'm going down this whole rabbit hole thing with seth godin because a lot of people either you really know who seth godin is and you're like you think he's great or people like i don't know who that is
what are you talking about but but but there are a lot of people who and he he mentions me in a lot of his stuff have you have you ever heard him talk about me no but when he sent me his image of you he said make sure you mention jill's name if
you show this image oh yeah he's super he's like super nice to me um because i don't know he well he likes that i sort of iterate he likes that i you know i invited him to my uh exhibition of paintings i was doing these paintings photographs of paintings and um he's like
you did it again you did a new thing and and i thought that was cool neat yeah was it easy to take his photo yeah yeah totally he's very uh outgoing and um yeah it's interesting you're mentioning the intro introvert self-described introvert i think i wrote that on my website to sort of
give a little hint of my personality i do think i'm kind of an introvert but i'm not just an introvert i'm like a little bit of an extrovert too and it doesn't mean that i'd like um it's just like in the beginning in the beginning of covid people were joking like this is
like my normal life right right just staying in and working yeah yeah but no i mean i definitely changed it's changed um but um yeah is that is there another question yeah yeah here's my last question for you now before now you don't have to answer this question before we went on air
you're like have you heard the rumors about me i'm like no what are people saying about you how do i know what people are saying about me i mean i know you know do i know i hear you hear things well i hear things no well so i don't know what to say
about that i don't know we can talk about it but um but uh i think i mean i do think and i've heard even from clients they'll say like well it's because you're outspoken woman so people think you're difficult it doesn't matter it doesn't matter that you do every single thing with a
smile for your clients it doesn't matter that you are like yeah let's do it whatever whatever you want to do let's work 18 hours straight sure whatever you can still be difficult if you have an opinion kind of and you're a woman and you're not like smiling all the time because you're focused
on doing your work so it's like a little frustrating like i had someone say like well you're just really passionate about your work and i'm like and that's a bad thing i don't know so yeah i mean i've heard that were they trying to explain you to you yeah yeah so that sucks
because i don't i i mean because then i hear stories like clients be like oh yeah so and so you know only gave us five shots to choose from or so and so refused to do that setup or so and so said you know someone's always being a dick that day and oh
yeah everyone knows someone says a dick and i'm like sorry for the language and and i'm like okay well i'm not like that i do everything that's but and yet you know so it's oh i see so you're saying sometimes you having an opinion and voicing it creates this reputation that you're difficult
to work with yet you're the most professional person like you do what you were commissioned to do yeah i do everything yeah no no but it's not even like having an opinion honestly it's not even like having an opinion on set it's like that i have a strong personality or something or that
i speak directly i've heard you know i was photographing a director and and someone said oh yeah he's difficult and i'm like and difficult and what when he's like oh he's just really direct and he just says it like it is and i'm like okay so i mean i guess i could see
that i'd be difficult like that because i am i say it like it is i don't i'm not like i'm not like being so direct that i'm like oh by the way you shouldn't wear that outfit because you look like [ __ ] i mean like i'm not that way but i'm just
i'm like maybe we should do this way and that way or maybe we should and it's not even anything having to do with the actual job it's just that um you know even it's honestly it's like maybe the fact that i did the current series of crying babies that like oh she must
be difficult because she did those crazy pictures it's like it actually isn't even based on anything i mean i'm not saying i'm like you know i don't know who to compare me to like some sort of like holly holly homemaker i don't know i'm not like oh yes hey let's do this like
a separate wife i'm not like that you know um but but uh yeah i don't know so that's like been a little bit frustrating because because i yeah because i'm not difficult this has been really fun and wonderful even that last little bit i feel like we're living inside of sitcom you know
like friends and you're like no and i'm not even really i'm not difficult at all you know it's like or a curb your enthusiasm moment where it's real there's there's elements bleeding in and it's not meant to be funny but it's kind of funny you know yeah yeah but it's my life you
get to leave now okay okay all right i i think we've taken up more than our fair share of your time i do appreciate you doing this and for also being super flexible with us i know we had to reschedule a little bit because i guess our original episode was like on christmas
or something it's because you gave me that option and i said i'm jewish i was like what am i gonna yeah let's do it on christmas i i didn't know you gave me a thing and i was like i'm definitely not gonna be doing anything on christmas hey i i am not jewish
but it's like if that's when you say you're available we do it and then jonah's like um hey there's nobody at the office we're supposed to have that day off but get back in there yeah no i didn't i didn't care it didn't bother me at all well you're awesome thank you very
much thank you for sharing so openly honestly and just being you i really appreciate it it's not very often that we have a person of your stature who's done the things you've done won the awards you've won been exhibited everywhere everything so it's it's been really wonderful uh and it was you know
maybe there's a maybe there's a follow-up where you can tell us the things you can't tell us i don't know there's a tease there for you but on behalf of the entire team thank you very much and everybody that's tuned in to drop your questions we really appreciate you here's some of jill's
contact information if you want to follow her on social media on instagram especially not on twitter it's at jill.greenberg i believe and if you want to see more of her fabulous amazing work with celebrities with non-celebrities with animals and children crying and not crying check her out at joegreenberg.com joe thank you very
much for doing this with that jonah we ready to get out of here yeah okay okay what no no jonah go ahead what are you gonna say no i don't have the ipad so i don't have music you have no music so you could just beat boxes i'll do this part real fast
thanks everybody for tuning in that's it for us thank you very much and thank you you all for being part of our one billion mission where we're trying to teach you how to make a living doing what you love don't forget to like comment and subscribe and hit the bell for notifications that's
it everybody have a great day bye everybody
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