Reluctant Coach Wants To Build Personal Brand (w/ Matt Essam) Ep. 2

00:00:00 I think a lot of people are intimidated because they don't know what they're signing up for. If I think about people that are famous or have a personal brand, the stuff that's like bad that came out about them, I still remember. And like even after they die, people still remember them. I think the thing that really stops me is I don't know if I can reverse it. I don't know if like when I go full in if I can ever go back. That's the risk of doing anything of consequence. If you want to be an 00:00:23 anonymous person and not be consequential, then you don't run that risk. But anybody who does anything consequential runs the risk of what they do can be interpreted as both good and bad and that's going to follow you around. >> Okay, so if I have a really strong personal brand, what are some other benefits of it? >> Welcome back everybody. This is episode two of this ongoing dialogue with Matt Essim. He's a friend and a person who coaches for the future community and we've been talking a lot about personal 00:00:49 branding. So if you haven't done so, it's really important that you go listen to the previous episode. We'll include the link to that episode down below in the description. The reason why is because in episode one, we kind of set the general framework for understanding or having the proper mindset around building a personal brand. We went through probably more of what it isn't versus what it is. And so, naturally, we've taken a short break here and we're back. So, Matt has a lot of thoughts and 00:01:16 questions. And so, I hope to continue to dive down deeper into this. As a quick recap, I I make the distinction that branding isn't about marketing. Marketing is about how you get sales, how you get conversions, how you get customers, how you make money. And this is a very important endeavor. But we should not mix these two activities up. And oftentimes it is mixed up. I believe that when we are talking about building a brand, it's a long-term thing without clear definitions of return on 00:01:44 investment. But what you're doing is you're finding out more about yourself and putting more of yourself out into the world. and you're aligning yourself with people in your tribe who believe what you believe in. And it's like you holding space. It's like the digital campfire and you're the storyteller and people gather around you to hear stories and to find communion or community in the group that gathers around you and it's relational. It's not transactional. And so that's as much as I can say 00:02:14 without like redoing the entire episode. Sorry to interrupt the episode. I want to let you know that I'm starting this community where we're going to help people just like you, experts, authors, and coaches to develop your personal brand. It's called Content Lab. So, for more information on that, just check out the links in the description. Now, back to our show. So, having said that, Matt, where do we pick up the conversation? I think I would love to pick up the conversation around content because I 00:02:39 think a lot of people, myself included, aren't 100% clear on what content to be creating in order to build the right kind of personal brand, but also to have an impact at the same time. And also, I guess the other thing is like how do you know where to draw the line between what to share and what not to share? Yeah. And I think in the video that you shared with me prior to this conversation kind of offline was this thing about, hey, I know a couple of people who seem to have a very strong personal brand who aren't doing what 00:03:16 you're saying, but yet there this and this is happening for them. Maybe before we get into all the questions that you have, let's start there. Who who is a person that we might both know or at least you could describe to to me where we may have differing points of view as whether or not they have a strong personal brand. Can you talk about these people by name or >> Yeah, I was just thinking that um there's someone that I would like to mention who was a coach and a mentor of mine 00:03:44 >> and so you probably don't know him by name and like pretty sure it's cool to talk about him because he talks about this stuff online, but his name is Dan Bolton, right? >> Okay. >> So you you've probably never heard of Dan Bolton, right? >> No. >> So to give you some context because you do know who Taki Moore is. >> I do. Dan Bolton used to be Takis's head coach for black belt. And so I think I came across Dan through Tackie. And the reason I bring him up is 00:04:12 because I worked with Dan for probably over a year. And what fascinated me about him was that he had a very small following. So he still only has, and I actually wrote it down here just so I wasn't like making up numbers, 5.6K 6K followers on YouTube >> and less than 15,000 on Instagram. And when I first started working with him, it was way less than that. I think he had less than a thousand subs on YouTube and he had about 5,000 on Instagram. >> Um, he was someone I followed because I felt 00:04:45 I could really relate to him. Like I felt like I knew him before I had even met him through some of the content that he was putting out online. He's very good at writing. But for people listening for some context and the reason why I want to have this conversation is because I know for a fact because I've seen his like Stripe accounts and stuff and he used to talk about it quite publicly that he made about $120,000 US a month in net profit from a small community of people basically. And they 00:05:16 all raved about him. They all raved about his philosophy, the way he lived his life. And so I think I've always equated in my mind when you talk about personal branding or when I hear people talk about personal branding, it's like, oh, I have to be like a Hormosi or I have to be a Chris Doe or I have to be a Steven Bartlett before I get any kind of level of success. So, I guess to to start with, like picking up from where we left off, can you just speak to audience size versus kind of impact and income and how 00:05:51 personal brand is related to those >> three things? >> Yeah, let's break it down. Um, I don't think there's any connection between audience size and income. Somebody could be the most unknown person, do a hundred billion dollars a year and we would never know about them and they'd be very successful and but we would kind of argue that they don't have a personal brand. >> Yeah. >> Because no one knows about them. So part of the personal brand is having the 00:06:15 reputation that precedes you in life and in on social. Now I'm going to sound like I'm being a little vague and mushy about this, but let's talk about it. Okay. Everybody that knows you has an impression of you. And even the barista at the the coffee shop who sees you every once uh once a day has an impression he's kind, he's not kind, he's very curt. And that's part of your brand. And if we were to somehow get the 100 people that are that know you, your family, your friends, 00:06:46 your partner, your co-workers, and we kind of assess what they all think of you, we would get some sense of your brand. What we do is we throw away the edge cases where people are like, "He's super generous, but only two people have said that." Or, "He's a total a-hole and only two people said that." We kind of look at the the thing in the middle, and that's you having your personal brand, and everyone has something like that. But we won't call it personal brand. We 00:07:09 just call it you have a reputation. It's not until this reputation exceeds your immediate primary and secondary circle of people that you know that we start to say like you have a personal brand. So the people that don't know you, haven't interacted with you, already have an impression of you. And there's lots of ways we can do this. In the old school way, it'd be to appear on TV or to be in a movie or to have articles written about you or for you to write a book and then people read your book and they 00:07:37 understand a lot about who you are. And from the little photo that they include on the inside of the jacket of the book, probably an old photo, probably you looking at your best. That's usually how these things are done. They're like, "Oh, I know who Matt is." sort of they couldn't recognize you on the street. They couldn't point to you. Nobody's going to let you in a bar because like, oh, you you must be mad as him because I've read your book. Doesn't usually 00:07:58 work like that. And there's some kind of critical mass. Now, I'm going to borrow a little bit from Marty Newire and I will as often the case when we talk about branding. He is when enough people come to a similar gut feeling about who you are, then you have a brand. And that's deliberately vague and nebulous because what is enough people? We don't know. But we know it when we know it. We can tell, right? And so when your reputation precedes you and that that that expression, um, Mr. Your 00:08:31 reputation precedes you, sir. And you're like, well, thank you, kind sir, you know, and you have that who people are talking about you when you're not in the room. >> Okay. So, could >> Now, you could be the poorest person, by the way. You could be the poorest person broke living hand-to-mouth and have amazing personal brand. >> They're they're not connected. Conversely, you could be the most unknown person, be the richest mother effer in the world and have no personal 00:08:54 brand. They're not connected concepts and we have to decouple these ideas. >> So, could personal brand and personal reputation be interchanged as in like they have the same meaning almost? >> Well, there has to be some differentiation because everyone has a personal reputation. Not everyone has a personal brand. My mom has a reputation. She ain't got a brand. In fact, very few people actually have a personal brand. They might think they do, but they really don't. All this is aided in the 00:09:23 age of media. And I don't think anything's really changed here because media has existed in newspaper, in radio, and on television, and in in cinema. But what has changed is the democratization and access of the platforms, the distribution channels. Distribution channels used to be owned by a few people who are quite wealthy and they get to be king or queen maker, right? If you appeared on Oprah, whether you had a product or if you're a psychologist or an actor, an actress, whatever it is, all of a sudden you made 00:09:54 it. You can literally call your friends and say, "I've made it. I'm on Oprah, everybody. We're on the cover of Wall Street Journal. I'm not being indicted." Right? you've made it. So these old benchmarks and they're still considered benchmarks because it's legacy trusted media still carries a lot of weight because every Yahoo can be on the internet. So if you have those markers, if you've you've won an Academy Award, if you want a Grammy, it says you've 00:10:20 made it. So this is another classic example. People have never seen the movie, but they tout Academy Award nominated actor, best film, blah blah blah, and they use that and that's a shortorthhand for people to say, "Oh, their peers think of them very highly. We should go and watch this film." That's why movie studios care so much about being considered for an award because it's marketing for them. because people we trust or institutions we trust have anointed this as being 00:10:53 trustworthy as being worth your money and your time. Okay? So, everyone has a personal reputation. Not everyone has a personal brand. And you can try to prove me wrong and we could just see if you can punch holes in this observation I have. >> I don't think you're wrong. But I think it would be useful for me to understand some distinctive characteristics or some distinctive elements between >> a reputation and a personal brand. Like if I had almost like a checklist, >> I have some for you because I've thought 00:11:25 about this. Okay. >> Do people outside of your vertical or your industry know about you at all? >> That's usually a good sign that you have a personal brand. >> Do people outside of your Say that again. Do people outside of your vertical or your industry know who you are? >> Because just for just to remind >> vertical like um okay let's take I don't know Dan Bolton but I do I do know Taki Moore. >> Mhm. >> Taki is well known within the coaching 00:11:50 community. Outside of that he's not known at all I don't think. >> Yeah. >> And he has fairly low reach and engagement on all of his social medias. So he's reaching a very small group of people. He's making a ton of money but he's not really well known outside of that. So if you were to walk to random people like you know Taki and everybody be like no in fact I'm not trying to like uh to make a bigger deal out of this but Taki went to one of my workshops I didn't even know who Taki 00:12:16 was and he walked up to me he's like I can help you and I'm like you're just a guy in my class right now you seem to be a person that I should pay attention to because of how attentive you are but I didn't know who Taki was. >> Was he is that why he got your attention? He got my attention because of something really strange and this speaks a lot about who he is as a person I believe. Um Amy who you know my head of head of business affairs she had an ice cream bar in her mouth and she was 00:12:45 eating it and I'm like oh Amy and know this is in front of the the workshop. I'm like excuse me I didn't know we were serving ice cream. She goes we're not. I got it down into the street and I'm like oh okay awesome. That's really cool. You know what Taki did? He got up barefoot sprinted out. I didn't know this. Went to that store to buy an ice cream bar and says, "Chris, I got you an ice cream bar." I'm lactose intolerant. I wasn't saying I want an ice cream bar. I was 00:13:12 like, "Oh, I was just surprised and delighted that somebody has an ice cream bar." And I just gave it to the next person. But that caught my attention right away. And he also like stood up and walked around kind of paced around the room. He goes, "Hey, Chris, I'm so sorry. I'm ADD. I'm ADHD. I can't sit still. Is that okay?" I'm like, "Dude, move as much as you want. There's no rules here. He goes, "Okay, thank you." >> So, that's number two. Number three, 00:13:36 he's literally approached me in the bathroom. He said, "I know there's a weird place to talk." And I looked down. It's barefoot in the bathroom. Like, this is >> You're never supposed to look down in the bathroom, Chris. You know, that's number one. >> Well, we're not in front of the the urinal. [laughter] We're just passing, right? But I'm like, "This floor is probably the dirtiest place you can imagine." And you're literally exposing 00:13:55 yourself to everything. I hope you don't have any cuts on your feet. But that's the Asian OCD in me. I'm like, "Oof." So those three things were what made him remarkable. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So putting Taki aside for a second, let's go back. So do people outside of the number one was do people outside of your vertical or your industry are they different things or are they the same thing? Vertical/ >> industry. They're the same. They're interchangeable, I think. Yeah. 00:14:18 >> Okay. Yeah. So do people outside of your industry know who you are is number one. >> Yes. I think it's one of them. Yes. >> Okay. What are some of the others? Then the other thing is I I'll broadly describe is this your ability to just print money. When you attach your name to something, that thing becomes valuable and people will buy it. Like your name means something. Okay? Again, it has to be outside of what you already do. So, if Taki again puts his name on a limited 00:14:45 edition desk accessory set for creatives and that thing has more value than what it was in the material goods uh in terms of the labor and the the cost of production, then you could say he has a pretty strong personal brand. >> Yeah. >> And so you can essentially print money. I was thinking about somebody today. His name is Cleon Peterson and he's an artist and he he used to be quote unquote a graphic designer, illustrator, right? And Cleon has emerged as a fine artist. He does giant murals and he has 00:15:14 a very distinctive style. And he recently released a resin sculpture of one of his characters. Quite famous. Like if you know who he is, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It retails for like $800. He took pre-orders for it. Took pre-orders for it. I think it sold over 240 units. We can all do the math here. roughly a,000 times 240 at $240,000. He was able to make money like that. And I was sitting there thinking, this is an incredible power that somebody has based on the fandom that he's been able to create. And if he 00:15:52 wanted to if he wanted a $10 million payday, he would just design like 20 of these statues or more or 40 and then he would have $10 million >> if I just can I just interrupt for a second then? So, but is that not within his >> It is within his thing >> industry. Yeah. >> Now, it starts to get real interesting because he's a mirrorless and he does prints. So he's moving into threedimensional forms which is a little bit different and he also does commission pieces for restaurants and uh 00:16:25 some at some point his his ideas his drawings will become like a textile like a print that um a famous fashion designer can use or a home accessories company can use. And so now he's starting to transcend his niche. I look at his niche is like a guy who puts work in a gallery and he's starting to move outside of that. And it's quite interesting. So the ability to print money outside of like the service that you provide. So for example, if Taki is doing one-on-one coaching, that's not 00:16:55 printing money. He's literally working for it. But if somebody else said, "Hey, I got a I got a book Taki or a framework or a fidget spinner kind of device. Can we do the talking more signature edition and that thing has value even though it's inside of his industry?" I say like he's moving towards that and for sure he's starting to elevate, right? Here's another example. And you're like, "Yeah, it's all the same, Chris." Or maybe it's not. Uh, one of my my favorite bands is 00:17:23 called 21 Pilots. Um, in 2024, I think they dropped Breach and it was the highest selling rock album of the year. And it reminded me of something. I like went to their 21 Pilots store and they sell merch, of course, t-shirts and things. So, they make music. They create a live experience for us. Merch transcends that because now I have some other version of that by them applying their name, their brand assets to something. A t-shirt is $30. We know that the retail, not the retail, the manufactured price of that is 00:18:00 probably like five or six bucks at most. At scale, it's even less. but they've created $25 of additional value because they've attached some version of their brand essence or brand assets onto that thing. If Taki put it on a t-shirt or cap and people paid money for that above the value of what it costs to manufacture, I'm pretty sure he has a strong personal brand. >> Okay. [clears throat] So, somebody outside your niche or outside your industry knows who you are. um your ability to 00:18:34 add value cuz like print money I totally get but it's more it sounds it's like it's more about your ability to add value to >> an asset by just using your brand i.e. The Rock releases a tequila and all of a sudden that tequila has more value because the rock has his name on it. >> Yeah. And literally doesn't even have his name as Tamana. So I Yeah. But he's endorsing it just like Brian. No, Ryan Gosling. No, Ryan Reynolds with um Mint Mobile, right? >> Or with like anything that he touches, 00:19:05 the football team or >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. >> Are there any more? >> Um I'm sure there are. I will think of them as we go. But those are pretty strong signs like you have reach beyond your vertical and when you add your name, your brand to something, it adds more value to that thing. >> So there's like two parts of me here. There's one part of me that I'm like, "This really resonates and I can kind of see I can really see what you're talking 00:19:34 about." And there's another part of me that's going basically what you're saying is like when you're famous. >> Like a famous brand is like when you're famous. >> Yeah. >> I guess I I would I'm a little nervous to use the word fame, but just well known enough. Yeah. M >> which is super interesting because I have a lot of resistance towards that. Like if you gave me two two choices and you said you can be a Dan Bolton that does 150K a month and like this little 00:20:08 small group of people love you and when you walk into a restaurant nobody knows who you are. >> Yeah. Um, but there's a certain group of people that do and they're already happy with you and you're delivering loads of value to their lives and they're getting amazing results versus >> when you go into a restaurant, people know who you are and give you a table because of who you are. >> Like definitely this one is more appealing to me. And I think it's I might be wrong cuz I can't 00:20:32 >> what's the downside of having both and why did you pick the restaurant? Because uh it it's the more concrete example isn't the restaurant. I'll give you a better example possibly. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And now what Dan Bolton is doing is just running a really profitable business. >> Yeah. >> Not an easy thing to do. When I say just, I mean, he doesn't need a brand. He doesn't want a brand. He's not building a brand. He's just building a 00:20:54 business. And that's something that's admirable. And he's making a lot of money doing that. One could even argue he's building a lifestyle business, one that supports what he wants to do at his own schedule, but he's not trying to be a gazillionaire doing it. Where it gets real interesting is if Dan Bolton were being invited to speak at conferences and people were telling event organizers so he doesn't have to pursue it. Hey, you should really get Dan. He's an amazing XYZ. 00:21:21 Well, that's the interesting thing. So, when I came out to LA cuz he's good friends with um he so basically he grew up as a youth pastor and it might be that like this is an edge case. It might be that there was like so many cards not stacked in his favor because he had a really tough upbringing and background, but like he started as a youth pastor. So he was like really used to talking to people. One of his first jobs out of school was like he was a sex ed teacher. I think he before he was even he was 00:21:50 like 17 or 18 or something, right? So he had all these experiences. Um and I can't remember the guy's name. I want to say Euan Euan Mcmanus or something. He's like really big in LA. >> Owen Mcmanis. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Owen. Yeah. Yeah. >> So he's he's like Owen's like one of his mentors and so he invites him to speak and Dan actually gets a lot of speaking opportunities and he also gets a lot of opportunities with like high-profile people. So I know he coached like Mike 00:22:17 Pner for example for a while and things like that. So the reason I'm kind of confused and you could say to me it sounds Matt like this is an edge case but I guess I'm just exploring people that I know in my world where I'm like that seems pretty sweet to me and kind of no one really knows who he is but he's still getting these speaking gigs maybe just because he's an amazing speaker and his reputation does precede him in the speaking circuit. um he's have a really profitable business, he 00:22:43 has an amazing lifestyle. Like that's that's something feels like pretty envious, you know, versus someone who's gonna get stopped on the street or someone who's going to get recognized and maybe get >> Yeah. I think you're focused too much on the recognizing on the street part, which is [laughter] not what any even famous people don't want that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You know what I mean? Because they want their privacy. So, we're we're we're 00:23:07 seemingly stuck on this one issue. So, let's table that for right now. Let's continue the conversation. Okay, >> let's let's unpack this. I don't know Dan from anybody. Okay, >> I do know Irwin McManis and people in the >> ministry space, pastors, they're the ones that are really good are great, amazing public speakers. We know that having a speaking opportunity within the church because they're literally every single week that they happen because that's what happens 00:23:35 with church, right? Mhm. >> And doing that within your space seems fairly common. I I would say that that's a sign that you're doing something right, but I wouldn't say that that's necessarily you developing a personal brand outside of your vertical. So your youth pastor speaking within the ministry to other of the flock. It's really all within the same vertical in my opinion. Number two, one of the criterias is I think to be considered a successful public speaker or a 00:24:04 professional public speaker, that has to be your profession. Meaning like you're being paid to do it and you don't have to do other things if you just wanted to live on that, right? So, if Dan is being invited to speak in churches and congregations and he's doing it for free, it's actually costing him more than it is that he's getting >> Well, just to clarify, he started as a youth pastor and that's how he knows Owen, but like now he gets invited to Miami and all these different places to 00:24:29 to speak and gets paid to go and like run workshops for people and stuff. Kind of the stuff that we were talking about last week. So, >> yeah, >> just to just to clarify. Yeah. >> Right. So, one could say now I don't have much of a personal brand. If I'm a graphic designer and I speak at graphic design conferences, um, now if I'm the guy who gets the premier um, closing opening keynotes and they're paying me the most amount of money, you can start to argue like your reputation is getting 00:24:55 bigger and bigger and you've transcended. So, the next criteria I think is you stand on top of the vertical that you're in. You're not just another graphic design person who's speaking. you're the graphic designer who's speaking about this. And so that would be the third dimension here that we're going to add, okay? That you are not peerless, but you're at the top, the top five, top 3% of the people doing what you do. So your personal reputation has exceeded that so that you've now 00:25:24 become at least within your peers a household name. >> Yeah, >> that that that is one of the criterias as well. Again, I think the reason why I want to have this conversation with you is because if you were to able to run a great lifestyle business and be content and happy with that, which sounds like that's what you want, we don't need to work on personal brand. You just need to get your business in order and do what you got to do >> and be content with that. And and there 00:25:54 are millions of businesses like that where we've never heard of the person, they're doing really well in their life, and they don't have to work that much. There are some downsides to that, but we can talk about that later. But that's fine. And the reason why I wanted to talk to you is because you're you're you're like a fish who doesn't want to go to the boat. And I'm the fisherman trying to bring you to the boat, but you're like, you know, you're you're 00:26:16 peeling out the line and you you sometimes come in because you're curious, but they're like, "No." And you just run again. And I'm like, "Well, I think there are a lot more people out there listening that are more like you than there are that like, I'm all in, Chris. Where do I sign up? Let's do this thing. Right? >> I mean that as an example, not literally to do with me. Okay? So, >> yeah, >> we have to still continue to understand. So, if if you can rub the magic lamp and 00:26:42 have the business that you want and do $120,000 a month in net profit or whatever you want and just be anonymous and just continue to work for the rest of your life doing this, if that's your jam, I think you just get your business in order. H do you believe though that somebody in the coaching and consulting space that wants to build say a community and that wants to build tools that really help people can do that as easily without a personal brand? >> Say that one more time. >> Do you think somebody like me in the 00:27:16 coaching and consulting space can build a sevenfigure business as easily as somebody who has a personal brand? not as easily, but as possible. I know this is going to sound really weird and disconnected from reality. I know everybody, I apologize. I send all your hate letters to Matt after this. I'll give you his personal email is I believe that in this world with so many opportunities that we have especially if you have some resources behind you if you have a roof over your head if you have a stable family life and you have 00:27:48 some money you can invest you have internet access and infrastructure built in like roads and things like that the ability to make between $100,000 a million dollar a year is not as difficult as it used to be. I agree. >> Right. I mean, if all I ever wanted to do was make a million dollars a year net, it it's not that hard for me. And so, I think there's bigger challenges here, ones that will pay way more than what what I'm looking at now. And to take for example Hermosi and his book 00:28:17 launch where I think he did hund00 million dollars in 48 hours in terms of sales. That's a remarkable feat from a person who understands how to potentially play the the brand game so well so that people feel indebted to you that they will buy 200 copies of your book to give to people they don't even know yet. That's pretty incredible. >> Okay. >> So yes, for sure you can do it. It will not be as easy for you to do it. But there's something that's much bigger than what we're talking about here, 00:28:48 which is what happens when Matt stops working in his life. Matt will make no more money. Matt won't have any assets that are something that he can sell, generally speaking. Okay? Matt won't be able to I mean maybe that's not fair to say but there are passive income vehicles or ways for you to leverage your expertise what people like about you your community that go beyond this. I didn't know this but somebody who's in the education space told me you know what universities do 00:29:20 with all the students that they reject? They sell that list to another university that their recruiters go after. Okay? because they have um they're overs subscribed. They have more people who want to go to that university that can't. They accept the 10,000 or 5,000 students and then the 110,000 applicants that they rejected, they sell to another university who needs those names and so now they're making money off that. They're building a different kind of business now versus just collecting tuition for the students 00:29:53 they can teach. But I think number four in if you have a personal brand is can you jump verticals? >> So when you're done doing what you're doing, it no longer interests you because your personal brand is so strong. You're like, hey guys, I'm going to do this thing now. It's not quite related to what I did before. And then the people are like right there with you. Example, Ryan Reynolds, The Rock. They're not selling acting. They're not selling a 90-minute piece of linear 00:30:23 entertainment. They're selling alcohol. They're selling mobile phone plans. They're selling wallets. They're selling I don't know what they're selling. They can sell anything at this point. And the pitch isn't that hard. They just say, "I'm doing this." And because we feel an affinity, a connection towards them that all things being equal, we'd rather buy from them than their competitor. >> That's what a brand is. Yeah. So, I guess we're still kind maybe 00:30:54 to people listening it kind of still sounds like we're stuck on this like whole am I fully into the personal brand thing? And I guess >> Oh, I can tell you're not. >> No, I know. But what I mean is like that was supposed to be episode one and episode two was supposed to be okay, how does this thing work? But >> no, no, no. I like this though. >> Okay. >> Okay. I really do because I don't believe any one person is going to listen to one episode like that's it. I 00:31:18 was anti and now I'm all four. >> Some people are like that. >> But those are the early adopters, the innovators, the uh the people who move really quick. But the middle majority are still like, "No, I'm with team Matt. I'm still I don't want to be famous. I I don't want to be recognized on the streets and I don't want to have somebody come up to me when I'm trying to have my own personal space." And to a degree, I don't think a lot of people 00:31:42 want that. By the way, that's a side effect from this other thing happening for you, which is opportunities are being created for you without you even trying. That's where you get into the magic sweet spot. >> Like event organizers are conspiring right now to figure out how to get you and who they got to call in order to get an introduction so that they can work with you. And there are people who are saying, "Matt, um, I know you have this one program, but what's it going to cost 00:32:08 for me to work with you on the highest level?" and they're they're they're creating demand for things you don't even think about. And there's there's a brand somewhere in the works, somewhere in the in the background saying, "We we have a product launch. I think we need to get this guy involved with this because it's aligned with what he stands for and his audience is amazing. Let's broker a deal." Those are the things that are happening. The consequence of some of this 00:32:33 happening is you do lose some of your privacy. some but that's all manageable too by the way. >> Okay. So can we just do just I think this would be helpful for me and people listening like personal brand advantages like you just went through these are some of the things that are happening for you disadvantages these are some of the things that will also come with that and then the same for this idea of this like lifestyle business just so we can really >> I think a lot of people are intimidated 00:33:02 because they don't know what they're signing I mean I'm intimidated because I don't know what I'm signing up for. >> Yeah. >> Right. And I don't know if I can check out. I think the thing that really stops me is I don't know if I can reverse it. I don't know if like when I go full in and become quote unquote famous, even though I know that's not what you're saying, but like when you have that level of recognition, if I can ever go back, like if I think about people that 00:33:25 have are famous or have a personal brand and are able to do all the things that you do, the stuff that's like bad that came out about them, I still remember. >> And like even after they die, people still remember them. And like for some people that's great. They want a legacy. But also at the same time it's like you never really >> switch off. You can't put the what's the phrase? Like you open Pandora's box like you can't put the genie back in the bottle. 00:33:49 >> Yeah. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Right. >> Yeah. But you know what? That's the risk of doing anything of consequence. >> Period. If you want to be an anonymous person and not be consequential, then you don't run that risk. But anybody who does anything consequential runs the risk of what they do can be interpreted as both good and bad. And that's going to follow you around. Look, if you were I don't know in in in the vicinity of a crime scene and you you did the cowardly 00:34:21 thing and people saw that and and it has nothing to do with building a personal brand. and it was on TV and they're like, "Hey, here's a guy who like left four kids and an orphan and a mom and just ran away." That's going to follow you for a long time. You have to disappear for a while because, you know, the thing is people's memories are not that strong. We're bombarded with new things we're supposed to remember and so it will disappear. But I do want to address the one issue here, which is 00:34:47 there a bunch of OG YouTubers nobody talks about anymore. Nobody even looks them up. So, you can put the genie back in the bottle. It's not even by their choice. They're either cancelled, they're no longer relevant, and we can see this. I don't want to name names because I'm not trying to badmouth anybody, but sometimes I'm like, I wonder what happened to that person. I look them up, they're still making content. It's just like no one's talking about them anymore, 00:35:11 >> right? So, I don't know if you know this. Um, uh, there's a a a Japanese quote unquote physicist at pseudocience stuff that measures the impact of positive and negative energy. It's the frozen lake experiment. Do you know about this? >> No. >> Okay. Well, I I learned a little bit more about this because Irwin Mcmanis, bringing his name back up, shared a story at one of the conferences I went to, and he goes, you know, they they took um three jars of fermented rice, 00:35:41 cooked rice, they put it in three jars, and there's uh controls like jar a they one person would go into it isolated from the other two and would just just yell negative thoughts at it. It would criticize it. They would criticize it. would just say not positive things to it and then one jar of cooked rice they would say positive things affirmations words of appreciation admiration those kinds of things and the third jar is part of the control they did nothing to it so let's see how it turns out so after 00:36:14 some time has passed the jar of of rice that received positive affirmations fermented into this beautiful savory rice wine or whatever it is, whatever happens to rice when it fermentss. And then the one that received all this negative energy started to have black mold in it. So since you've not heard the story before, what happens to the one the control? >> Nothing. It just stays the same. >> It actually has twice the rate of black mold in it. >> Wow. >> See, and that's the same reaction I had, 00:36:52 which was no, it's probably cool. nothing very very little has happened to it. And so in this life it's best to receive positive energy but it's worse to receive nothing to be ignored to to know that you your life everything you do does not matter at all. So I would choose positive energy and then I would choose negative energy and the thing that we don't want to do is just be completely ignored like we're not relevant at all. >> Yeah. So those those creators who created something who got some positive 00:37:26 stuff, they got some negative stuff and then they probably hated that negative stuff until they got no attention at all. >> Yeah. >> That is probably the worst thing, right? >> Famous phrase, right? Which is like there's only one thing worse than everyone talking to you talking about you behind your back and that's no one talking about you at all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So before we just do like the positives and negatives cuz I'm I'm going to make sure we come back to this. 00:37:51 >> Is there a spectrum? Because when I hear you talk, it sounds like it's like you you either made it and you have all these things or you don't. Whereas when I see people building I'm not going to use the word personal brand because I don't know if I understand it yet well enough to even use it in context, but let's say notoriety within a niche. So attacking more. It seems like they have a lot of the benefits of what you're talking about without the downsides because 00:38:21 they're still recognized by a small group of people who they care about, who they want to impact, they're highly respected, their reputation precedes them within that niche, but outside of that, they don't have all of those other things. So, is there like a spectrum? >> Yeah, they're just like I said, I don't want to use this word just to diminish, but they are good business operators. There's people who build amazing boats. You don't know them. Everybody in the 00:38:45 industry, if you want a boat built, you would know them. But that's it. They're not known outside their vertical. Uh they they don't they cannot leverage very likely in their brand until they're able to move forward. Here's here's a really good example, I think. Do you know who Sean Stucey is? >> No. >> You must have seen the t-shirts where it says Stuy. >> Oh, yes. >> Kind of like Yes. Now you know, right? Yeah. >> So, Sean Stusy is considered the 00:39:11 godfather of street wear. And from what I remember, um he's a California guy. He shapes surfboards and he's quite well known for shaping surfboards, right? And of course, to create some kind of brand around the surfboard, he wants to put his name. So, he remembers his uncle has like a really cool way of signing his name. So, he asked his uncle, "Can I use the way that you write Susi as part of my brand?" And so, he put this on the surfboards. people who knew who surfed that he shaped really great surfboards. 00:39:41 And then I think um and this is where it gets a little murky for me. I think he puts it on a t-shirt and people are like, "Whoa, that's connected to the surf shaper." But now there are people who are buying the shirt cuz it looks cool and it's connected to this idea of surfing, the the lifestyle and the culture, but have no idea who he is that they even want to buy a surfboard. and he goes on to influence the entire street wear industry. Goes to Japan, influences uh an unknown creator named 00:40:10 Neo, hangs out with Farel and all these people and they start to build this thing and it's called the Stusy Posi in National Posi, right? And he does this thing. So now we've gone so far beyond a guy who makes surfboards and to a brand and he has something that lives beyond him that he could buy and sell and trade which he's sold his company to. I sold his company away years ago and this is what has happened. So if he is the shaper of boards, people in his vertical will know he could be quite wealthy 00:40:45 running a great lifestyle business. But the story kind of ends there, you know. I I don't know Taki that well, but I believe he's the stuci before he starts doing t-shirts >> in a vertical just like Dan. You're really well known. You make a good amount of money and you just keep doing your thing. So, I would say a lot of people that I meet and I coach, even people who are like ex Disney executives like have Spotify and Sony Music as clients, I think a lot of them just want that first. Yeah, 00:41:20 >> because like they've done amazing work and they're still not quite they they're getting there. Like one of my clients gets invited to to do a lot of design talks and his studio is growing and and bigger, but like they probably just want that. They probably just want like and that's why I like >> what what is that? Define that. that is to be one of the most well-known, wellrespected insert thing, designer, animator, whatever in their industry so that they don't have to go chasing for work and 00:41:48 like the clients come to them and they get invited to talks and things like that. >> Yeah. >> Be like beyond that until they get there. I think it feels like a phased thing for me. It feels like something that you reach when you're like, well, I'm super successful. Like I've I've achieved all this stuff. Like what's next? like what what impact do I really want to make versus you know it's kind of like the Maslo's hierarchy of needs like if you don't have your shelter you 00:42:14 probably don't care about self-actualization >> yeah that's I would agree if you can't pay rent and buy food you're not thinking about self-actualization >> yeah and I think it's the same in a way just based on what you're describing like I haven't thought about it in this way before because I think a lot of people online they really do try and link this idea of personal brand to income and personal brand to opportunity and personal brand to wealth. >> And I think what you're doing is kind of 00:42:42 sep separating those things if I understand correctly. >> That is correct. And there's a reason why they think that, by the way, and I'm going to use a violent term because there are a lot of pretenders, huers, uh, con people who don't understand anything about anything who feel like this is a a buzzword they can jump on and and repackage what they do and call it personal branding. when some people are just looking to help you book more speaking opportunities. Like I don't think the people who are 00:43:16 doing that, they're called agents, by the way, public speaking agent, literary agent, that kind of thing. They didn't call themselves running a personal branding program and now they're starting to use that. Some of them, not the accomplished ones obviously, but the wannabes, that's what they call it now. And so they promise you, oh, have a full inbox, uh, 10x your revenue. They're using all the language or marketing and sales, but then they wrap it under this thing called personal branding. So, it's 00:43:44 very confusing in the marketplace. And I would say for every 100 people who are talking about personal branding, I think three people might understand it the way I understand it, and 97 would be the opposite. That's why I'm so clear about like this isn't it, you guys. If you want to do that, go pursue that. That's fine. I got no hate for that. But when people use terms sloppily and to look at opportunities and kind of make it deliberately vague and blurry, then that creates confusion in the 00:44:14 marketplace, right? For example, a person who runs Facebook ads for you could make those same promises to you. Matt will get more people in your coaching program. uh we'll make sure that you're doing 100,000 monthly recurring revenue and 87% of will be profitable and we're going to build your personal brand. No, you run Facebook ad campaigns and there's glory and nobility in doing that. I respect you. I salute you. Let's not call it personal brand building >> because if a term means everything, then 00:44:50 the term means nothing. >> Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I think a lot of people need to hear that cuz I think a lot of people are in my camp where the terminology and the idea was fairly new to me until I read like key person of influence maybe six or seven years ago, right? Um, and Dan was definitely a pioneer in that thing. But like as you're talking, Dan's not even really talking about personal branding either. He's actually talking about becoming a key personal influence 00:45:18 in your industry. And these are the things that you have to do. And I actually think that formula, if anyone wants the things that we just said and not the other things that personal brand brings, I actually think that formula works pretty well. >> Um, >> so let's I I've got a couple of other questions and I think a direction that we we could go in, but let's just get really clear because I think some people including myself might still be a little bit not that I need to be bought into 00:45:43 personal branding necessarily, but I think I need to understand like what game I'm getting into. Right? Yeah. >> So, if you had to like put if you had to put a list of here are all the pros and you've talked about some of them already, right? Being able to just put your brand on something and it increases the value exponentially, being able to essentially print money, being able to move into another niche or another vertical like you've talked about some of those things. So, let's keep going on 00:46:08 the benefits and let's let's really look at like if I have a really strong personal brand, what else could be happening for me and what are some other benefits of it? >> Okay, I'm I'm going to answer this question, but I'm going answer this in terms of a question. Okay, so I don't know if you know this, but I don't make content until 2014. I'm 42 years old >> and at some point I'm making content and then somewhere along the way you and I cross crossed paths. 00:46:37 >> I don't think it's in 2014. It's somewhere in there. Do you recall? >> Yeah, I think it's 2017. >> Oh, that early. >> And what did you see or hear that my name pops on your radar? Someone actually recommended me to you because they were like, "You need to figure out like who the person who are the people that creatives look up to." And it was like a list of people. >> Um I see >> I think it No, let's go. It was probably Are you saying like when you came on my 00:47:11 radar? >> Yes. >> Um let's say 2018 then. 2018. >> That sounds better to me. >> Yeah. Um And it was like originally I was looking at people like Chase Jarvis >> um and things like that. And then so I had never heard of you and someone said to me, "Oh, you should check out Chris Doe." And I remember like reading the kind of description of what you did either on your YouTube channel or on your website. And I was like, "Oh [ __ ] like that's what I'm trying to do." And 00:47:42 so it was really about finding someone that was trying to do what I I think the person was basically saying, "Look, get some kind of validation for the fact that this these ideas have a bit of traction and this is actually what people need help with." >> Yeah. >> Um and I think that's that's when I came across your stuff. >> Yeah. Oh, by the way,