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    PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT
    Podcast 13 min read

    Why Productivity Is Burning You Out w/ Klaus Kleinfeld

    with Klaus Kleinfeld

    Chris Do and Klaus Kleinfeld examine why managing energy matters more than filling every available hour.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · July 31, 2025

    A Full Calendar Can Hide an Empty Tank

    A perfectly managed day can still leave its owner depleted. Klaus Kleinfeld, an industrialist who describes leading Siemens worldwide and later serving as CEO of Alcoa, learned to question the discipline that had helped shape his career. His perspective matters because his argument for recovery comes from running demanding businesses, not stepping outside them.

    Speaking with Chris Do, Kleinfeld describes a change in the way he understands performance. Raised in Germany, he valued discipline and became an enthusiastic practitioner of time management. Eventually, he concluded that allocating hours did not address the more fundamental constraint: the condition of the person expected to use them.

    A schedule can organize effort. It cannot supply the capacity to make that effort worthwhile.

    That distinction sits at the center of his book, Leading to Thrive. Kleinfeld says its urgency grew while he worked with younger founders and leadership teams through his investment activities. Burnout was not confined to executives approaching the end of long careers.

    He recalls encountering people barely into their thirties who had become seriously depleted. He describes one person's situation as nearly fatal, without offering medical details. These experiences challenged his assumption that exhaustion was primarily a problem for people who had spent decades in business.

    His response was to put into writing ideas he had been using in individual coaching. The intention was to reach beyond the limited number of leaders he could mentor personally. The subject was not simply how to accomplish more at work, but how to remain capable of participating in the rest of life.

    Energy management is the foundation of sustainable performance. That is Kleinfeld's central proposition, and its implications extend beyond productivity. An exhausted person does not leave depletion at the office door; relationships and personal commitments also draw on whatever capacity remains.

    This is not an argument against ambition. Kleinfeld speaks enthusiastically about business, entrepreneurship, and building high-performance teams. Work itself can be a source of enjoyment rather than merely a cost to endure.

    The problem is treating that enjoyment as permission to ignore the resources it consumes. Loving a business does not eliminate the need to recover from running it. A compelling opportunity still makes demands on the body and attention of the person pursuing it.

    Do's interest in the subject begins with a related observation: external advice often stalls when internal beliefs and habits remain unchanged. A better business method does not automatically produce a person capable of carrying it out. The mechanics and the operator require different kinds of attention.

    Kleinfeld calls these the outer game and the inner game. The outer game concerns where effort goes, particularly in business. The inner game concerns the energy available to bring there.

    The distinction changes what counts as a productive decision. A pause can serve performance rather than interrupt it. Leaving an hour unfilled can be more useful than finding another obligation to occupy it.

    But preserving energy raises another question beneath the calendar: what deserves that energy in the first place?

    Purpose Has to Reach the Factory Floor

    When Do raises differences in attitudes toward work across generations, Kleinfeld shifts the emphasis from age to purpose. He acknowledges variation rather than treating an entire generation as one personality. His concern is the experience of spending substantial time doing something that feels disconnected from a meaningful life.

    Kleinfeld rejects the idea that fulfillment must exist entirely outside the working day. He recognizes how much of life a job occupies. His own standard is demanding: find something worth doing, change the situation, or leave it.

    That does not mean every task needs to be inspiring. His first paid job, taken at twelve, involved stocking shelves and cleaning up unpleasant messes. He remembers finding satisfaction in the independence the money provided, the people around him, and the unfamiliar world the work introduced.

    The task was not transformed. Its meaning was.

    For a leader, however, purpose cannot remain a private interpretation. Kleinfeld argues that the organization must make the connection between work and consequence visible. His strongest example comes from a struggling Siemens angiography and X-ray business.

    As he tells it, the team was discouraged and the business was losing money. Time spent in hospitals exposed him to something the workforce had not fully absorbed: the equipment supported not only diagnosis but minimally invasive interventions. The work had a human consequence that was missing from employees' understanding of it.

    He invited a patient from Munich to an all-hands meeting. She described her experience and the role Siemens equipment had played in her diagnosis and treatment. Then, using the record of employees who had worked on the equipment, she read their names and invited them onto the stage.

    Later, Kleinfeld recalls, the head of the labor union came to his office and thanked him: “Thank you for giving us our soul back.”

    The story is his recollection, not a controlled demonstration of what causes a turnaround. Its leadership lesson is nevertheless precise. The employees were introduced to a person whose experience made their contribution tangible.

    Purpose becomes credible when people can see the beneficiary. A statement about helping humanity is broad enough to disappear into the background. A patient naming the people who helped build her medical equipment is harder to dismiss.

    Do presses on the weakness of an inspiring event: its effect can fade after the leader leaves the room. Kleinfeld's answer is to embed reminders in ordinary operations.

    • Label equipment with its destination so employees know where their work is going.
    • Connect delivery timing with the patients waiting for diagnosis and treatment.
    • Keep customer consequences visible during technical discussions.

    At Siemens, he says, assembly-line employees could see where a machine would be installed and consider the area it would serve. A delay was no longer only an internal scheduling problem. It had implications for people beyond the building.

    The example also gives concrete shape to the broader subject named in The Futur's Storytelling Is a Superpower. Here, the story's strength comes from reconnecting the workforce with an existing consequence, not inventing a more attractive corporate identity.

    Purpose was already present in the work. Leadership had to make it legible.

    The Customer Is Not Interrupting the Work

    Kleinfeld's account does not stop at making employees feel useful. Purpose also requires checking whether the work is useful. That is where his approach becomes less comfortable for people who take pride in their technical expertise.

    He describes bringing a folding chair into meetings with a brass plate identifying it as the customer. The empty seat was a deliberate provocation. Research and development discussions had drifted too far from the people expected to benefit from their conclusions.

    The imaginary attendee imposed a practical test: could the team explain how its discussion helped the customer? If not, the conversation needed translation. Technical sophistication was not a substitute for a comprehensible benefit.

    Another practice was more direct. Kleinfeld says the team invited accomplished doctors twice a year, under nondisclosure agreements, and showed them what was in development. Their criticism could be severe.

    He preferred that discomfort to discovering the same weaknesses after a product reached the market.

    Do recognizes a version of the problem among smaller creative businesses. Some practitioners behave as if the client obstructs the work they would otherwise be free to make. Payment is welcome; participation is less so.

    Kleinfeld locates part of the difficulty in competing languages. Developers discuss features. Marketing and sales discuss user impact. Neither fluency automatically guarantees the other.

    Technical achievement is not the same as customer value. Kleinfeld illustrates the distinction with a Siemens mobile phone featuring a color display. He recalls internal excitement followed by poor commercial results.

    His explanation is specific to the product he remembers. The display added cost, its resolution was limited, and phones in that setting did not yet offer the camera use case that would help make color immediately valuable. The achievement was easier to describe technically than to justify from the buyer's perspective.

    When Do asks about the correction, Kleinfeld does not manufacture a tidy success story. He says the company lost money and that he had observed the business from the side rather than running it. He does not believe enough learning happened at the time.

    That admission matters. A leadership principle becomes less credible when every example is polished into a victory.

    For a small service business, his recommendation is less theatrical than an empty chair: get closer to actual customer feedback. He favors making some customer calls personally and maintaining a shared place where the team can review what customers report.

    The customer-centered concern connects naturally with Crafting a Great Client Experience. In Kleinfeld's account, the starting point is not an elaborate presentation. It is a willingness to hear where the experience fails.

    He names three business indicators he pays particular attention to:

    • Customer feedback, including net promoter scores.
    • Employee motivation.
    • Cash in the bank.

    Those indicators keep three different realities in view: the customer's experience, the team's condition, and the company's financial room to operate. None makes the other two irrelevant.

    This brings purpose back down to earth. A team needs a reason to care, but it also needs evidence that its effort is serving someone. Otherwise, renewed energy can simply accelerate work that customers do not value.

    The Inner Game Has More Than One Source

    Once the destination of effort is clearer, Kleinfeld turns to the condition of the person supplying it. His model separates energy into physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual dimensions. Purpose provides direction rather than replacing any of them.

    These are the categories he uses to organize his thinking, not a claim that human experience fits into four perfectly separate containers. The value of the framework is its breadth. It prevents a discussion about exhaustion from becoming only a discussion about scheduling.

    • Physical energy. Kleinfeld emphasizes movement, sleep, food, hydration, and attention to breathing.
    • Emotional energy. He focuses on reactions to other people and the relationships allowed to consume attention.
    • Mental energy. He looks at interpretation, problem-solving, and the ability to see opportunity inside difficulty.
    • Spiritual energy. He describes belief and sources of meaning, including religion in his own life.

    On the physical side, his personal practices are recognizable rather than exotic. His team protects morning exercise time. He says experimenting with more sleep has helped him, after years of believing he could manage on very little.

    He also describes using tracking data to notice patterns around his nights. Late, heavy meals and alcohol are disturbances he has observed in his own experience. Those observations belong to his routine, not to a universal prescription for everyone else's sleep.

    The emotional dimension centers on the difference between encountering provocation and surrendering attention to it. Kleinfeld argues that responses can be practiced. He also allows for a more decisive option: some persistently draining relationships should be changed or left.

    That is a useful boundary on the argument. Emotional discipline does not require remaining indefinitely available to whatever causes distress. The aim is not to prove an unlimited tolerance for difficult people.

    On the mental side, he favors interpretations that leave room for action. His shoemaker parable places two sons in the same market, where people are barefoot. One sees no demand; the other sees an enormous opening.

    The story cannot establish that either commercial judgment is correct. Its function is to expose the difference between an observation and the conclusion attached to it. Kleinfeld's concern is how quickly a group can settle on one interpretation and stop looking.

    The distinction also connects with the subject of Dealing With Negative Feedback: a difficult response can become either a final verdict or material to examine. The reaction and the information are not identical.

    Spiritual energy is the category Kleinfeld is least willing to exclude merely because the setting is business. He describes belief as a source of strength during dark periods, including the loss of his father when he was young. He explicitly says the category is not limited to religion, while acknowledging religion's importance to him.

    Together, the categories resist a familiar simplification. A person who feels depleted does not necessarily need a stricter calendar. The problem can involve the body, a relationship, a habitual interpretation, a loss of meaning, or several of these at once.

    Different drains require different responses. More discipline is not a complete diagnosis.

    Stop Letting Every Problem Become Every Problem

    The practical turn in Kleinfeld's argument begins with a common form of self-created overwhelm. A person faces one problem, adds another, then another, until separate issues feel like a single impossible condition. He calls this stacking.

    Its danger is not that the problems are imaginary. It is that combining them obscures the different decisions each one requires. A solvable task becomes part of an apparently unsolvable life.

    His alternative is deliberately unglamorous: separate the issues and address them individually. Identify the first problem, decide what can be done, then move to the next. The shift is from an accumulating emotional verdict to distinct matters that can be examined.

    This is an operational distinction, not a demand to pretend that everything is easy.

    Kleinfeld applies a similar test when leaders explain why they cannot stop working or attend to another commitment. One more issue has appeared, and they believe their immediate involvement is indispensable. He asks them to examine that belief rather than accept it as evidence of responsibility.

    • Establish whether anyone will be hurt if the task waits.
    • Name the actual consequence of a delay.
    • Identify who is responsible for the work.
    • Ask whether that person has been given the opportunity to handle it.

    In the situations he describes, the consequence sometimes amounts to a delay of one day. Another person is already responsible, but the leader has assumed that person cannot perform. Kleinfeld then challenges why someone judged incapable remains in a role that requires the work.

    The issue has changed. What first looked like a scheduling emergency now looks like a question about responsibility, trust, or staffing. Working later does not resolve that underlying question.

    His guiding instruction is compact: “focus only on those things that only you can do.” It is not an invitation to withdraw from leadership. It is a demand to distinguish leadership from reflexive involvement in everything.

    The business pressure behind that distinction is adjacent to the territory of The Futur's conversation with Dan Martell. Here, Kleinfeld approaches it through the immediate decision to intervene, delegate, or let something wait.

    He then carries the same boundary into family life. His office reserves time for important personal moments, and he expects to be mentally present when he attends them. An interruption requires something genuinely serious.

    Being physically in the room is not the same as being available.

    Do introduces a useful concern: compartmentalizing can become a way of storing feelings rather than dealing with them. The distinction matters. Protecting family time from business intrusion is not identical to denying emotional experience.

    Later, the conversation lands on a related interpersonal mistake: responding to someone's distress by immediately trying to solve it. Kleinfeld emphasizes that a person sharing a problem can be seeking empathy rather than instructions. Listening is a different task from fixing.

    The practical thread is specificity. One problem does not have to absorb every other problem. One role does not have to invade every other role. One person's request for understanding does not have to become another person's performance of expertise.

    Attention becomes more useful when its job is clear.

    Recovery Belongs Inside the Working Day

    Kleinfeld's clearest statement about recovery is also his shortest: “down time is productive time.” The implication is not that every break needs a measurable business return. It is that constant expenditure without replenishment is an incomplete model of performance.

    He describes a friend running a large company in Hong Kong who leaves his phone with an assistant, takes the elevator down, and walks around the block before returning. The procedure is small. Its defining feature is separation from the stream of demands.

    Another person can remain at a desk, put the phone aside, and spend a short interval attending to breathing. Kleinfeld offers these as examples of micro habits rather than elaborate transformations. The break does not need to become another project.

    That simplicity is important because a complicated recovery plan can reproduce the behavior it is supposed to interrupt. A person already overwhelmed by obligations does not need a second system that feels impossible to maintain. Kleinfeld repeatedly returns to actions that can fit into an ordinary day.

    When Do asks for the first practice for someone who has read extensively but still feels lost, Kleinfeld does not recommend another framework. “Start with breathing,” he says. He follows it with physical movement.

    The modesty of the answer is the point. Knowledge about performance is not the same as a change in the conditions under which someone performs. Reading about recovery leaves the working day untouched unless something in that day changes.

    His practical suggestions, spread throughout the conversation, form a straightforward set of starting points:

    • Reserve time for movement rather than waiting for a gap to appear.
    • Create short breaks with the phone out of reach.
    • Use a pause to bring attention back to breathing.
    • Observe which personal habits leave the next day feeling more depleted.
    • Protect important personal commitments from routine work interruptions.

    These are practices Kleinfeld describes, not a treatment plan for serious exhaustion or illness. His larger argument is about making recovery legitimate in a culture of continuous effort. The schedule should reflect that legitimacy before a person reaches the point of being unable to continue.

    Do reinforces the ordinary foundations: sleep, hydration, food, movement, and work that has a meaningful connection to the person doing it. He also acknowledges that having choices about work is a privileged position. Not everyone can leave a draining job on demand.

    That acknowledgment keeps the conversation from turning every difficult circumstance into a personal failure. Agency exists in different amounts. The ability to change an organization, switch jobs, protect a morning, or take a short pause is not distributed equally.

    Still, Kleinfeld's own early work experience suggests that purpose need not arrive as a grand mission. It can be independence, learning, or the people beside the task. The question is whether the connection is real, not whether it sounds impressive.

    For leaders, the challenge is equally concrete. Show the team who benefits. Listen when customers describe friction. Stop treating every interruption as an emergency that only the person at the top can resolve.

    For the individual, the next decision is smaller: whether a full day will contain any deliberate provision for the person expected to live it.

    The calendar is organized. The person still needs care.

    TRANSCRIPT

    In the end, it all comes down to finding your purpose, because in the end, you will spend a lot of time in your job. And I think you should look for something that you truly enjoy. I have always lived by the principle, even when I didn't have money, I either love it, I change it or I leave it. Hello, my name is Klaus Kleinfeld and you are listening to the future. So my guest for today's podcast is Dr. Klaus Kleinfeld. I've been given permission to call him Klaus so we can keep this on an informal basis. He does a lot of thinking and writing on the inner game, like the mindset, the belief systems. And I know this from personal experience, as much advice as we can give to people until they unlock this inner parts of them, they're always stuck and they're held back. So, uh, Klaus, welcome to the show. For people who don't know who you are, can you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your background? Klaus Kleinfeld, I'm an industrialist by background, worked in many industries, had 20 years with Siemens, ran Siemens worldwide, and then moved back to the US and became the CEO of Alcoa and ran that for 10 years, then split the company into Alcoa and Arconic. After that, was the first CEO of Neon. And I also now have a portfolio of different things. One is a family company in the probiotic space, as well as an investment company in active investment, particularly in the AI as well as software space. And then on the advisory side to do mentoring for leaders as well as advice some companies as well as countries. I've not had a person on the show before introduce themselves as an industrialist. What is that? I've never heard that before. Well, I mean, I started my life in the consumer business, frankly, in consulting and did a lot of consumer business. But I realized that I was very much attracted. It was complicated stuff and B2B, mostly B2B things which have technological backgrounds, you know, and that fascinated me a lot. Particularly after acquainting myself, how it is selling dog food as well as washing powders. I could also say I'm an entrepreneur. I like business. I love business. I've done business since I was 12 years old. More for life pushed me into it, frankly, and to make it a little more nicer. I mean, deep down inside, I mean, it's all about entrepreneurship, finding an opportunity, then building on it, but mostly in the industrial space. So I think you said from dog food to detergent, you've done it all. You've worked in those spaces. Yeah, I couldn't name more strange things. Okay. You've rattled off a handful of really large, big organizations. Maybe some of our audience doesn't even know who they are, but they're massive corporations, organizations. What made you sit down and write this book that I want to spend a lot of time talking to you about, Leading to Thrive? Yes. What made me sit down is that I have been, having been brought up in Germany, as you can probably hear from my accent, you know, discipline is a very important thing. And I was a big fan of time management until a few years ago, I realized it's really not about time. It's rather managing your energy. And then I realized that this concept of energy management is unfortunately not that common and not that well understood. And I thought for a while that this is only the issue for those who are longer in the game, who burn out. But then when I formed my investment company and also worked with companies that are two to five years away from going public, I realized that it's even worse, I would say, in the younger generation and the founders generation. because I had an experience of two individuals. One was a founder, another one was a leadership group who burned out, has barely been 30 years old and almost died. One of the person almost died. And I thought, wow, I think I have to provide the framework. And in my coaching, I did provide that. But then I thought, I have limited time to do this. one-on-one, so why don't I use a medium also like this podcast, but based on the book that people find the concept that described also with examples and also with some what I call hacks so that they could use it and hopefully live a much better life. Not just business, more successful business, but also more successful in life because the foundation of everything is energy. If you don't have energy, whatever you want to do with it, you bring it to the business world, you bring it to your private life. If you're burned out, you're not going to be a good partner to your boyfriend, girlfriend, or whatever, or friends. And at the same time, you're also not going to be successful in business. I want to take advantage of this fact that you're, I believe I read you're a dual citizen. Obviously, there's the German accent, but you're living in New York. I'm just curious with what's going on in the world right now, what is your perspective on the differences in American and German culture? Well, I could focus on the differences and obviously there are some, but I've got this question a lot when I moved around, I've been working internationally almost all of my life. The most interesting thing is that there is more commonality fundamental commonality than difference. And what I've found is that in reality, everybody wants to be treated with respect. That's number one, you know, and the way disrespect is seen or respect is expressed can have or does have very often cultural nuances. But in the truth, I mean, your filter always has to be, I need to, if I want to win this person over, Even if I do not agree with this individual, I have to find a way that is in a respectful way to handle it. And as a leader, that's always extremely important. I mean, I know that some of you will take the position and say, I have the gun in my hands, you know, and that's sufficient enough to motivate people to do what I want. Yes, this worked and sometimes works even today. But in most environments, top talent has choices and will look at you and say, thank you very much. I had it and I go somewhere else. So that's my experience. But you can also see from me having decided to come back to the US that I believe that the system here is a system that has a lot of advantages. I'm personally, one of the things, I don't know whether you want to talk about that, I was very strongly influenced by my parents were refugees from East Germany. The family was left behind and then my father died when I was 10 and my mother started to work again. And during the long vacations, what does she do with the boy? She sends him back to his family and that was all in East Germany. So I spent a lot of time in East Germany during my formative years. And I learned two systems with fortunately the right passport, a West German passport, and that strongly influenced my view on freedom. You know, that freedom of speech is particularly important. And I feel that that's at the core of what America is about. And also, we are an immigrant nation. Everybody has come from somewhere. I got the question all the time, "Hey, Klaus, how have you been welcomed as a German in the US?" And nobody even asked me where I'm from because everybody is from somewhere. And the real question that you get is, "Hey, what can you bring to the table? Can we work together? What can we do together?" And at the same time, there's no envy about success. And it's rather like, hey, tell me more. I want to be successful and learn from you. So that's what attracted me to come here and to live here. This is where I'm at home. You mentioned something about seeing these young founders and leaders burning out and leading to maybe a near death situation. And here's something I have a question for you in terms of like, I know you talk a lot about leadership. is that I find that young people today have a different mindset about work. And I'm sharing perhaps this stereotype about millennials, especially where they show up to work thinking, when you pay me enough, I'll start to care. Whereas my generation, Gen X, was like, we showed up, we just worked really hard and then we were rewarded for it. So something has happened in the workplace. And these are natural evolutions of different generations. Do you have a perspective on this? Yeah, I do. And I think that what you're saying is probably in general, the description is correct. At the same time, you see there's still a broad based variance there. My impression is that in the end, it all comes down to finding your purpose. And that, I think, is also important. And if you feel that you're not just putting some hours in, mindlessly putting some hours in, accepting a job that you really don't like and distinguish between, I spent some time at the job, but my real life is outside of the job. I don't find that that's a good recipe for a fulfilled life. Definitely not a good recipe for a fulfilled life because in the end you will spend a lot of time in your job and I think you should look for something that you truly enjoy. I have always lived by the principle, even when I didn't have money, I either love it, I change it or I leave it. And I could highly recommend that. And back to the energy point, for people to understand, purpose does to energy what a laser does to light. The moment you have a purpose, it suddenly focuses this and gives you enormous strength. Like a laser, it can go through anything. You are tired, you get out of your bed, in the morning, the moment the purpose kicks in, you say, oh my God, let's get on it. I'm ready. I want to achieve this. This is what I'm here for. So I use the book also to reflect more on this concept of purpose because it is a concept that humankind has been dealing with since we exist. And a lot of intelligent people have thought about it. So you find a lot there about purpose. I find that younger people especially are way more purpose driven than say my generation where we show up, it's a means to make money so that we can provide for our family and think about the future. Whereas young people really do choose to align themselves with companies that they can get behind. Now, as we look across, like just mostly in America, I would say, and I'm not that familiar with it, but a lot of corporations, I don't know what the purpose is. And is this a problem? It is a problem. It is a problem. And one of the recommendations that I have for business leaders is make sure that you explain to your team what is the greater purpose. And the interesting thing is if they start thinking about it, In almost all cases, you find something. So at one time, I did a turnaround of the Siemens and geography and x-ray business, and it was the birth of the medical business. But it had deteriorated and compared to the new what's called modalities, computer tomography, MRI and stuff like that. So the team that I had was beat down. We didn't make money and it was a beat down team. I had spent some time at the hospitals and had realized that what we were able to do was not just diagnosing, but we also started to go into minimally invasive interventions and saw patients who literally survived, not just because of the diagnosis, but because of the treatment that was possible. This had not made it. into the mindset of the workforce. The workforce was beat down and they didn't know what the purpose was. So I invited a patient one day from Munich and had her talk during an all hands meeting, explain what happened to her. And in the end, it was clear to people that she was treated, diagnosed and treated with Siemens equipment. And in the medical industry, you basically have to write down who worked on the equipment. And so I gave her the list of the names and she read out the names and asked them to come on stage. I tell you, I mean, in the evening, the head of the labor union, and trust me, this is the northern part of Bavaria, these are people who have seen a lot and not easy to move. So the head of the labor union comes into my office and says, "Hey, Dr. Kleinfeld, thank you." And I said, "Thank you for what?" "Thank you for giving us our soul back verbatim." And he said, "We forgot why we're doing what we're doing." So this was, I knew at that moment we will do a great turnaround and trust me, this is one of the divisions that is most profitable inside of Siemens since. And they've done a lot of amazing things to you people. And also, so I can highly recommend, we did the same thing at Alcoa. In this case, we invited an astronaut and had the astronaut talk about what goes through the mines and the countdown. And obviously when the person gets shot into outer space where there's only a piece of aluminum this thick that basically distinguishes them from death. So the idea of who has made it, what quality standards have they used, could there be a kernel of impurity in it that in the end under pressure, heat or whatever can break. And knowing that these are determined folks, it all gives them peace of mind that they will return healthy back to mother earth. It goes a long way, I can tell you. It goes a long way. In the case of Siemens, where you find this patient who's been benefited from early diagnosis and her life presumably saved or altered in a way that is positive, you find these stories and you share it in an all hands meeting. How does the company continue that story and that belief and that purpose so that when you're not there, it lives with them, it lives inside of them? Well, you have to find ways to constantly remind them. So one of the things that we did is there was fortunately, this was a location, is a location where marketing, sales, research and development and manufacturing is all under one roof. So which is great. I love that, you know, and So what we did also is in the assembly line, we actually put a name on where does this equipment go so that they would know it goes to God knows what place in Michigan. You know, this equipment that they are building goes there. So they knew if they are late, you know, and we told them, look it up on a map. Look at this machine, this angiography machine will go to a place. which takes care of a hundred mile radius. In a hundred mile radius, you know, they will have patients. If you are late, it basically means there are patients who will not be treated, will not be diagnosed and treated. They will never forget every moment they go, they say, no, we got it. We got to get this thing out of the door when we can't make mistakes, you know? Okay. So you build this into the production process so that it's not just a machine, it's a machine connected to real people and the encouragement of understanding literally, like it's not just a general area, but there are lives here that you will positively impact. And that was just one thing. I had a folding chair. and put on the folding chair a brass plate and the brass pitch had "Customer". Because some of the R&D discussions were so far away from understanding what's the customer value, so I brought this folding chair into the meetings and set it up next to me. I said, I brought a good friend of mine here today who wants to listen, and then they say, he's gone crazy. He's gone mad. I just said customer. I said, oh, it's the customer. He wants to listen to what you are discussing and wants to reflect on how this is going to help them. Because if they don't understand what you're talking about, you probably have to explain to them how this helps them. So I tell you, that alone, I mean, constant reminders. We had a group of extremely good doctors that we invited twice a year, top-notch doctors, and had an NDA with them. They came to the room, and we showed them everything. And it was brutal. The conversation was brutal. Brutally good. Brutally good, because it's better to have your friends criticizing you than seeing that the product tanks in the marketplace. These are really big companies and we're building big machines that are going to impact hundreds of thousands of lives. Does this idea scale? If I'm running an organization that's a service-oriented company of 20 people or less. How do we use some of these ideas to connect people with purpose and the lives that we're touching? It depends on the industry. The most important thing is have your ear on the ground with real customers. Customer service finds that many people see customer service. I see that companies have customer service. Most of the companies have customer service that's lousy, absolutely lousy and not even human, machine, you know, you ride write something to them, you never hear from them. In the end, the customer feedback is gold, absolutely gold, because from the customers, you do learn what is probably to be improved with your products, what needs to be explained better. So you have to find a way how you get customer feedback as direct as possible. I'm a big fan of doing some of it myself, doing phone calls, doing phone calls myself and talking to customers and just hearing it directly to have a repository of what is the feedback that you get, which everybody can look into, have net promoter scores measurement of that. That together with how motivated are my employees and how much cash do I have in the bank are the three most important variables that I always look at, no matter whether it's small or big business. I find that when they run a small business, they don't have that kind of mindset yet. They'd sometimes, especially in the creative space, they feel like sometimes, and I know there's going to be a shock to you, the customer gets in the way of them doing what they want to do. You know what I mean? So their idea of customer service is shut up, pay me on time, and be grateful that I actually show up and do this work. How do we help them? How does that usually end? Not well. So funny enough, first of all, this is a normal problem. And part of it is because they live in two different worlds. And also they speak two different languages. they speak a language of features, you know, developers speak. Whereas there's another group, which is the marketing and sales department that speak the language of user user impact. And typically these languages are not identical. And I give you an example of where we once hit the wall, also at the Siemens days. We brought out the first mobile phone with a color display and people were so excited. Phone with a color display, a tank, totally, totally tank. And then the question is why? Because the color display is a technical term. It was freaking expensive for a technical term. But the application, at that time, no phone had a camera. No phone had a camera. The resolution of this color screen was so bad, even if you had had a camera, it would not have displayed an image really well. So there was no positive feature for the customer. It was just like, it was more expensive. That's it. So why on earth do you think that that helps? You have to distinguish whenever you have technical terms, the Japanese really figured it out. They build a matrix. Here are the technical terms and here is what this means in terms of customer value. And you have to translate it. And sometimes, I mean, it's speed. When you talk about processors, it's speed, relatively easy. When you talk about memory, already more difficult. What does memory mean? Where does it come out? So, but if you can translate that into customer value, then also obviously they won't pay for it. It just means additional costs. It means less competitiveness. So once again, in the case of Siemens, where they come up with this colorful display that totally tanked in the market, what was the correction? The correction was that we lost a lot of money. And that I had hoped, I didn't run the business. I looked at it from the side. And yeah, it was very frustrating, to be honest. So I think there was probably not, at that time, not enough of a learning, to be honest. I wanted to see if you have a perspective, since you were talking about Siemens and color displays. And all I did was like, what are you talking about? We all have color displays. Do you have a perspective on maybe some... contemporary, like something that's happened recently. This is the example in modern days, in modern day terms, they're kind of effing up in the same way where they create something and they're not really thinking about the customer. Yeah, I'm thinking of, I mean, it happens all the time in the software world. Where was I recently kind of getting annoyed? It's really those things when you get annoyed. Why is this not user friendly? Now that you call me out, I'm like, Always when I sit behind my desk and having to configure something and I think what on earth are they thinking? Oh yeah, I configured recently the pool, the outdoor pool, and it has obviously a system now where you can set a program. Every time someone comes and we switch the damn thing on, I have to remind myself how was the programmer thinking when I set a certain flag. The user interface is counterintuitive, very counterintuitive to the read environment. And then they are, you know, whatever. And then you very often you see multiple variables and you don't know what this variables actually influence. I can so relate to this. We have a pool, we have a complicated system. I didn't want to touch it. It's like every time I have to get it going to heat up the jacuzzi or whatever, it's like wait what do we have to do again like and did it turn itself off or do i i'm gonna be up all night thinking that the pool's just running the entire time exactly little things like that exactly and then you go down to the pool and you hold your hand into the water and you feel is it coming out warm is it hot warm you know so All right, I want to get to the meat of the book. It's this idea of the inner game and outer game. First of all, what the heck is the inner game? How does it relate to the things that we do in the outer game? Inner game is basically down to energy. How much energy do you have? How do you conserve it? How do you get it? And the outer game is where do you bring it? And the outer game on my book, I focus really on business. On the inner game, the inner game is the foundation for whatever you want to do. But I wrote the book really for the inner game. The outer game, I think I have, we talked about some of these things, so I think you find a number of also funny stories in there and experiences. I try to keep the whole tone of the book conversational. At the same time, I do believe a lot of the stuff in there is probably... and not common wisdom. But the inner game is really what was closest to my heart, why I sat down and wrote it, because I wanted to make sure that people understand, okay, what does that mean, energy? And I already said, you know, what are the sources of energy? There are really three to four sources of energy, depending on how you slice it. You know, the simplest one is body, mind, and soul. I separate the mind into emotional and mental. And then you attach the purpose to it as the focus on it. Then the question comes, well, what does that mean? How do I get physical energy? And we all know it's a lot about moving, moving, sleeping, drinking the right thing, eating the right thing. One thing that has come in more into focus is the breath work. How do I breathe and how quickly I call it the breathing. Hacking, breathing is a super cool hack, which you can use in a very, very good, fast way to recharge. Then on the emotional side, we already talked about it, the emotions are what you allow to have happening. So if somebody is there who annoys you, then it's not that you are annoyed by that person, it is you allow to be annoyed by that person. You can train yourself to basically look at it like Buddha did. Buddha comes to a town and there's somebody yelling at him and Buddha doesn't say a thing. After a while, the guy stops and says to Buddha, now what do you say? And Buddha says, Well, I want to ask you, you know, somebody comes with a present to somebody else who wants to give the present and the person who is supposed to receive the present refuses to take it. Who then owns the present? Obviously, the person who has the present in their hands, which is the owner, owns it. That's the point. You know, so and you can train that. You can really, really train that. Really train that and just not allow people to annoy you. And I think also if you have people who constantly annoy you, then back to the question, change it, love it, change it or leave it. This might be good to not have them in your life anymore. Try to get them out of your life if you can't change them. And the other thing on the mental side, it's really, there's this old story about the shoemaker. who the old shoemaker who wants to pass on his business has two sons, sends them both to Africa. The one son sends him back and says, "Daddy, I have very, very bad news. They all run around barefoot and there's no market here." The other one sends a note back and says, "Daddy, unbelievable. Send me as many shoes as you can find. They are all running barefoot. The market is endless." And frankly, I mean, as silly as the story sounds, I think we have seen gazillions of examples and that makes really true leaders. When others see a challenge, many people look for an opportunity and force themselves to say, how could I see it in a different way to not fall into group thing? And the last point is spiritual energy. Spiritual energy is almost, I mean, almost... not allowed to talk about it, certainly not in a business book. But I can tell you this is not necessarily about religion. This is more about what do you believe in. But I think even religion is something that people should reflect on. I can from personal experience say it is an enormous source of energy, enormous source of energy. And when you're going through really dark times, which I wish no one for you, it gives you enormous superpower in a heartbeat, frankly, in a heartbeat. Yeah, so that's that. And then the question is, you know, how do I how do I conserve it? and all that and how do i re rebuild it and you constantly have to rebuild it every day you wake up in the morning you are really nicely charged you know during the course of the day it burns out and then how do you rebuild it rebuild it and that's the thing the point is down time is productive time you have to have certain routines there are this micro habits i mean one of my friends who is in hong kong at a high rise he has and runs a large company there He takes his phone, his cell phone, gives it to his assistant, goes to the elevator, takes it down, walks a few times around the block, goes up again, and he's refreshed. Some people just say, I'd switch the phone off, give it to my assistant, do a breathing exercise behind my desk. So there are tons of micro habits and we can learn a lot from these high performance fields that have figured it out. They have figured it out. I mean, there you see in all of the high performance fields, the athletes have gotten older and can perform for longer, whereas in the business field is exactly the opposite. So I would say, you know, let's learn from them and let's just have more fun. And the other thing is bring it not just to your business life, but also bring it to your personal life and lead a more fulfilled life. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen, snacks, a stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com/protectionterms. I can't tell how old you are. I'm going to say that we're probably similar age. Maybe you're a little bit older than me, but you seem like you live with a lot of vitality. You seem to be a high energy person. So what do you personally do so that you feel like recharge and energized? Yeah, I live by this principle. So, but it's not, I mean, it's not like, I mean, some of it I built in. So my team knows that in the morning I religiously have some time reserved for workout. And now I don't mind getting up early. I used to think that I can get away with very, very little sleep. It's just in the last, I would say, three years where I played with having a little more sleep. And I have to say it does me well. On the mental side, I've always, I think I've always been somebody who always looks for the opportunity in the mess. And people who worked with me would say, "Well, it gets really, really rough. Klaus gets calmer and calmer and calmer." And that's true. And I think that that's a routine that I've trained myself. And then on the spiritual side, I already told you, I mean, I have, when I lost my father, this was clearly, and I was very, very young, and I was sitting by his bedside when he died, not knowing that this is what's happening. Nobody knew it at that time. and he had an aneurysm and that was at that time not not diagnosed you know so um yeah so and then when when you have moments like this um you you get tested you get tested and It worked in my case. I wouldn't say it was easy, but those are the main principles. And then I have some of these things like love it, change it, or leave it. Some of those principles. I love teamwork. I'm an addict. I love to work with good people, and I love to build high-performance teams. It's pure joy for me, pure joy. Just out of curiosity, how much sleep do you get a night? Well, currently I have more than six hours, six to six and a half hours, yes. During the week, certainly. But there's... I mean, people always say you can't catch up on the weekend. I'm not quite sure that that's true. And always keep in mind, I mean, I travel a lot. And I only realize now the sleep trackers are really cool because all the trackers in general, because they show you all of the things that kind of get a little bit out of balance in a more objective way. With the data that you collect with the sleep tracker, what do you do to adjust it so you are optimizing your sleep? Well, I basically look at it. There's two sleep phases that you want to look at. I mean, there's the deep sleep and there's the REM phase. The deep sleep is very important for physical relaxation. The REM phase is important for mental relaxation. First of all, you have to see that you get enough of both during the course of the night. And secondly, when you don't get enough of that, you have to ask yourself, what happened the what what happened and it's pretty clear on my end what are the typical disturbances if i ate too much too late then my body is like a boa constrictor It actually digesting, digesting whatever I put onto it. If it was a big steak, which is really bad, really bad, you know, two hours before I go to bed, there's no wonder that my sleep is not ideal. You know, same thing is true if I drink and it's really interesting that already small amounts make, make an impact. I mean, I kind of don't like that, but I have to admit it's true. At least the data, the data show me that it is the case. You don't like the fact that it wants you to drink a little bit less and not more. Yeah, exactly. spoken like a true german right there and you you mentioned something about intermittent fasting is this like when you restrict the times in which you eat or do you fast throughout the day no not throughout the day i do it i try to eat relatively early have to know when i can control it have then are relatively early and then i don't eat breakfast and then i start eating again around 12 30 or so that I kind of like it. And I drink water, you know, so. But I've never been a big breakfast person, so that helps. I think a lot of people who, especially young people that I run into, seem to be like tired all the time. It is not rocket science, everybody. Let's just go over it. You need to sleep. And they think they don't need enough sleep. You need to stay hydrated. You need to eat good, clean food. Maybe not always, but most of the time. You need to exercise. You need to move your body. And I think you... already know this part, but you got to do something that you believe in because that could be really draining on your energy in a way that it's hard to like compensate for. And I think we live in this wonderful time now where we're way more connected to what we want from life. And we have a lot of options. We can work remotely. We can apply for jobs anywhere in the world now that really feels connected to us. And there's less and less of a reason. I know I'm speaking from a very privileged place where you have to show up at two, nine to five and just feel miserable about your entire life. And if you want to increase your life force, I think those are the basics, right? You got to get those into alignment. And I have to tell you, on my first paying job, I was 12. It's not legal to work at 12, but I was always a little taller. So I worked there. They never asked for any documents. They hired me to fill up the racks in the morning and on the weekend and paid me for it. And it was objectively seen a pretty lousy job. When you have to clean a rack with old milk in it, I don't even want to go into details. It's not fun. But for me, I got some fun out of it. Partially also because I thought how much freedom there's the pay gave me, I enjoyed the people that I was working with. I actually learned something, gave me a complete new insight into a different world. So I think part of it was probably also that I was looking at the bright side, bright side of it and was not beating myself, was not beating myself up. It works. It works. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the mindset part. You told a story about Buddha, and it's kind of an interesting way to frame it. Like the person was bringing problems to Buddha, but Buddha said, there's a present. I just don't want your present. And that's totally okay. And you get to keep this rotten present for yourself. And that was a beautiful way to explain that story. And also about the shoemaker, who's like two children, exact same scenario, depending on how they look at things, can totally change their perspectives. can we spend more time on this mentorship? Because I think people struggle through this so much. I have friends who complain about things all the time. Like, didn't you put yourself in a situation like this? Why? We love to complain apparently in some cultures more than others, but how do we get her out of this? I mean, I think there's one way to get out of it. If you, you have to have really good friends and you, you might otherwise lose them. I mean, sometimes you can, it's, it's fun. If you go into a, even more extreme. So then instead of, I mean, you typically being the one who tries to pull them back, you then add to it and you make them realize, add little things, say, and the water is too warm. And by the way, the Yesterday my cell phone rang only five times. Am I losing importance? So drive it to some really crazy situation until they realize that you are making fun of the situation and that it's time to switch. But I think there's a number of tricks. One is also compartmentalization. on the mental side. Instead of saying, I mean, stagging is one thing. What I just described is stagging. So you say, I have one problem and instead of having that one problem that I can solve, I now add to it another problem and that's not enough. I had a third problem and a fifth until I've got 20 problems. And by that time you realize you are in a rut. This is impossible. You are screwed, you know? So there's no way out and you're screwed, you know? So That's one way to really screw yourself instead of saying, "Okay, we need one thing after the other. Let's first think problem number one, how do we deal with that?" Done. Boom. Problem number two, let's separate it. How do we deal with that? Done. Problem number three, bam, bam, bam, bam. And also prioritize and say, "How is anything going to harm your life?" Also putting it in perspective, saying, well, this thing that you call problem, I just got a call from a friend of mine who's got diagnosed with brain cancer. So how does that relate to a person like this? So making sure that people understand, you said it before, we are in a privileged position. I think sometimes it's important to remind yourself how privileged you are when you are simply healthy. We take it for granted, but it's, I mean, just go into a hospital if you don't know how it looks, and you will probably come back as an altered individual. So the other thing is the compartmentalization. I see that many people, this is idiotic thing. I see many times in leaders who tell me that they are late because they had to do this one thing or they can't do this because there's one more thing that came up that they have to solve. It feels like they are thinking, and my question is, if you don't do this, does anybody get hurt? We say, no, nobody would get hurt. Okay. What is the most negative impact of that? And they say the most negative impact that it's going to be one more day, one more day later, you know, and who's in charge of this? They say, are you in charge of? No, somebody else in charge of this. have you asked the person to do it no i know the person can't do it why is the person still there if you think that they can't do it and they get paid for it you know so to bring it back to say hey focus only on those things that only you can do for instance is a good is a good mantra and also when you i mean one of the things that i've always done with my family is when I create the special moments. So basically my office puts in certain time slots and when I'm there with the family, I'm really there. Only if something really dramatic happens, you know, then my office would pull me out. But otherwise I'm there, I'm there for them, I'm focused fully on them and I really keep in my head, keep business out. So I'm also mentally there. And this is the compartmentalization. You basically say, this bucket is not here yet. I close the door and literally, mentally, I really close this out. And I have this bucket now, which is family, children, girlfriend, friends, you know, whatever it is. I find that trait to be more common in men than women, the ability to compartmentalize. Whereas like say my own life experience, my wife's feeling bad about something. It's going to bleed over to everything. It's just cannot be put into a box. But sometimes I think she's really healthy because she's always expressing what she thinks and feels in the moment. Whereas we tend to go into our cape, put it into a little box and to come out. And sometimes it can be very, very toxic. So there's pros and cons to everything. Now, John Gray has written this fabulous book, Men Are From Mars, Women From Venus. Yes. And I can, it's older, but... But I can highly recommend it. I actually recommended it also to my children and their husbands to read it before they got married, you know, and then had lunch with them to question them on whether they understood it. Because I saw it firsthand with my wife, who I know for a long time. And only when I read Gray's book, which is a long time ago, I have to admit, when it just came out, I realized that there is this fundamental difference. And I think women can compartmentalize actually better than men. But what you are describing is a different thing because women are juggling many, many more, traditionally juggling many, many more tasks than men typically are juggling. So they can do this. But what you are describing as an indicator that they can't is a different thing. It is more the thing that the way the problem is solved is by sharing, sharing with you. And they don't want the men jumping into solving problems. They just want to share. And I think the best way is to just be there and listen and say, "I understand what is going on. Tell me more. Wow, this is terrible. I feel for you." And if you go into, "Hey, why don't we do this one?" You are annoying. You are annoying to that individual, to the female, because she knows what to do. She knows what to do. In most cases, she knows it better than you. That's not why she's talking to you. She's talking to you because she wants empathy. Empathy, that's what she's asking for. I do remember that part of the book. So your memory is still very good because I remember that as well. Men kind of become idiots sometimes and try to solve problems. I'm like, no, that's not what they want. Yeah. Just relax. We're different. We're different. we're very different that way okay are there any other hacks this inner game hack that you you want to share with us well i think we talked about a lot of things and i think this breathing thing is a very cool hack you know where if you can use it anytime you don't need anything for it just lean back concentrate on the breathing concentrate on breath going in like a wave you know many people have unlearned that typically when you breathe in, it's like a wave through your stomach also comes out and goes in. It's really like a wave concentrating on that. If you want to have some break time in between, you count to distract your mind also. I mean, there's a thing called box breathing. And the reason why it's called box breathing is called 4-4-4-4. And it means you count to four while you breathe in and let this wave roll through. You then count to four and hold it, and you count to four while you let it out, count to four when you breathe in. And this you will see in very short time, it increases your alertness. And most of the top performance teams, they're definitely in the special forces. They all use this purposely before they go into the mission to just be completely mentally focused. I think it's strange to talk about breathing. It's one of those natural things. But there's a lot of people who talk about, like, we don't breathe what we need to. We just breathe barely enough to survive. And breathing can change your state. We can oxygenate our blood. And one of the things I struggle with, and somebody told me this before, when my voice gets like, all scratchy, they're telling me I haven't been breathing enough the whole time. I'm straining my vocal cords. Well, that's the other thing. Straining your vocal cords, in fact, is a sign of stress. And My wife used to be a teacher in her first life and I remember when she got into this long, long time ago, because she realized that her vocal cords started to get a little rusty. So I was trying to talk her into becoming the singer on a rock band, but she didn't want to do that. So she took a voice lesson to learn this. And that was a great investment, a great, great investment. Because there's a way, you know, how you can train it, how you can sensitize yourself. This is now where the stress sets in. You press, you start pressing and it becomes more and more difficult, more and more hoarse. And again, if you want to be a singer in a rock band, that's probably a good thing. But normally it stresses you out. I can't remember which actor this was, but they have an ability to cry on command. And the interviewer asked him this question. It's like, how are you able to do this? And they're like a little bit like, I'm not sure I want to tell you a trade secret, but they do tell the trade secret, which is really interesting to me. They say they take in a lot of rapid breaths and that triggers the crying response. You know, like when you're a kid and you cry so much. So if they just do that, it's enough for them to trigger the cry. So they're like off camera crying. bunch of short breaths and then they do that so it's really interesting how breath can help us relax it can stimulate us or it can strain our cords or it can help trigger a crying response i think posture in general is under undervalued i mean try to be really unhappy when you look up try to be really unhappy when you're looking at try to try to smile while you're on the phone and and this is the old really old trick of of telephone sales people you just smile and you just come across as more likable even though they don't see you even though they don't see you there's something that happens in your voice in the way you approach it when you smile move those muscles you know something in your state changes and I think the whole looking up is like looking to the horizon because when we feel safe, there's only time we can look towards the horizon, right? Because if something's going to kill us, somebody's going to fight us, so we're not feeling safe. We don't look towards the horizon. But if you look towards the horizon, there's an inner thing that's happening. that calms you down that you're more relaxed and you're happier right i think that's true that's true that's true well and also i think this point of very often people say hey on the mental side do some do some um do some exercises do some meditation And that's great. At the same time, many people give up because they don't succeed. They say, "Hey, there's always some chatter going on in my head." That's normal. The way you do it in the beginning, you just let it occur. Just let it flow. Just let it flow. And probably one last thing that I want to add is in my book, I also put in there, what do people say on their deathbed? And I think that's probably the final wake-up call for everybody who doesn't take it serious. It's really interesting. I mean, nobody says, I wish I had worked more and spent more time in the office. People do, however, say, I wish I had allowed myself to be more me. I wish I had allowed myself to be happier. I wish I had not listened to other people that much. Those are the things that people say. And the good news is we are all alive, hopefully healthy and happy, you know, and we can change it. I've been talking to Dr. Klaus Kleinfeld and we, in his book is called Leading to Thrive. And we've, there's a lot of concepts you, you brought up Klaus and in case somebody is confused, in case somebody's, and they're listening to this right now. And let's just say they've read every business book out there and they still feel lost. What's the first practice you tell them to implement tomorrow morning? So we've talked about a lot of things, but maybe at this point they're like, I don't know what to do anymore. Like leave us with one nugget. Start with breathing. Start with breathing. Just it's short, huge impact. And then go to physical exercise. Learn to breathe. and do a little bit of physical movement. Exactly. Exactly. What does that do for us? The same thing. The moment you move your body and all the lymph, the lymph system, which is basically the waste system of the body, doesn't have its own organ. It only works through our movement. So the lymph system is important to get all the waste out And again, your energy juices, the muscles and everything, the body now gets the stimulus. It's time to be alert, be human. Another great thing is, by the way, play with light. At night, get light blocked out entirely and during daytime, expose yourself to light. I have a little thing here somewhere which is called blue light. It's a little box. Blue light works extremely well. It's like a drug. and you can put the blue light up on a gloomy day, which we have sometimes here in wintertime in New York, put a blue light up, boom, you know, even if it doesn't shine directly, it goes into the part, into the retina, triggers a hormonal basis because during the daytime when the blue light is most prevalent, the hormones that make us alert gets exerted. The moment the sun goes down, it's red, reddish, you know, these type of hormones don't come out anymore. Blue light is a really nice hack. If you have blue light all the time, you know you are killing yourself. But so particularly also this is the reason why people say, hey, don't sit in front of your computer or in front of the TV too long, because most of the screens emit a lot of blue light and the blue light has that impact. you can't cut it out unless you wear some some people wear these orange sunglasses or so which this is this is why that is the case it's a very mechanical mechanical response that changes the hormonal setup. Do you need to exercise this? You need to sweat a lot for this to work? Sweat is good because sweat is the way how it gets from your limbs out. You pee it out, it comes out wherever you have ways to get it out. But the most important thing, you have to get it moving. You have to get it moving that from your extremities that goes to the rest of your body and then out, out, you know, into your kidneys and out, you know, it's lymph system. We went to a lot of different places today. And if you're a person who's like, I'm not feeling energized, I'm going to recommend that you go out and pick up the book, Leading to Thrive, and start implementing some of these principles. They're very practical, simple things that you can do to regulate your system. And I think the world is better when people are happier. We're better partners. We're better parents. We're better children. We're better bosses. We're better employees. Let's just work on the energy, especially a lot of young people. You should have a lot of it. And if you don't, something is off. Something's out of balance. Love it, change it, or leave it. There we go. Thank you very much for being our guest today. It was a pleasure. A real pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you.
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    “You need to move your body.”

    — Chris Do

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