The Circuitous Path to Purpose
We talk about career transitions as if they are a character flaw. It sounds like you cannot make up your mind. It suggests you do not know yourself. For many, that is true. But what if that winding path is not a sign of being lost, but a sign that you are actively searching?
In a conversation with The Futur’s Chris Do, life and executive coach Julee Kim unravels her own extensive history of career pivots. Her story challenges the conventional wisdom that a straight line is the only path to success. “I literally have experience in so many different fields,” she explains. “Overall I think it's the fact that I have gone through this pain so many times that's what really makes me able to help people see that it's not so bad.”
Her path looks like a summary of several lifetimes. A straight-A student, she started college as an English major before making a hard left into mathematics. After graduating with a degree in math, she pursued law school, only to drop out after a successful first year. Then came a two-year stint as a competitive, top-ranked World of Warcraft player. From there, the list continues:
- Editor and writer
- Content manager
- Amazon product manager
- Technical writer
- Professional photographer
- SEO specialist
- Finally, a life and executive coach
This is a stark contrast to Do’s own story. “The thing is I've done well just doing one dumb thing,” he admits. “Just keep doing the same thing over and over again and just do it incrementally better every day every year.”
For Kim, the gift and curse was that she could excel at almost anything. So, the defining question became, what was she supposed to do? The voice that signals a change is not one of boredom, but of deep misalignment. “This isn't for me and I really hate this,” Kim says of that internal signal. “So why am I putting myself through this?”
This journey reveals a critical distinction most professionals fail to make. There is more than one kind of professional pain, and learning to tell them apart is the key to finding work that does not just pay the bills, but genuinely fulfills you.
The Two Types of Discomfort
Every new endeavor comes with a period of discomfort. We universally hate being bad at things. This is the first critical hurdle where many people quit. Pushing through the awkwardness of being a novice requires accepting two truths: you are not good at this yet, and it is possible for you to improve.
Kim notes this is a particularly potent trap for creatives. “One of the curses of the creative mindset is we all or many of us subscribe to the idea that creativity is something you're either born with or you're not,” she observes. This binary thinking creates a fixed mindset. If you believe talent is innate, then initial failure feels like a final verdict. You either have it or you do not.
But there is a second, more insidious type of discomfort. It arrives not when you are failing, but when you have achieved competence, or even excellence.
Kim reached this point in law school. She was not struggling; she was in the top of her class. “I looked at my report card and I was like oh my God my grades are they were all A's,” she recalls. The decision to leave was not about an inability to succeed. It was about asking a bigger question: “Is this something I want to get really good at?”
This dilemma is the central theme of Gay Hendricks' book, The Big Leap. Hendricks argues that most people get stuck in their “Zone of Excellence,” doing work they are good at, and which likely brings them external rewards like money and recognition. They build a successful career on a foundation of competence, but not passion. It is a comfortable prison.
The alternative is the Zone of Genius. This is the work only you can do, the work that brings you profound joy and energy. It is your unique gift. The move from excellence to genius requires letting go of something you are good at, which feels counterintuitive and terrifying. It is a choice to abandon a proven path for an uncertain one.
Kim’s transition from a successful SEO business to life coaching is a perfect example. She had a plan, she executed it, and the success was almost instant. But the work was draining. “SEO was killing me,” she tells Do. “I was just like, I don't believe life is meant to be spent feeling constantly drained, hating your work every time you work.” It was a conscious choice to leave her Zone of Excellence, a field where she was both skilled and profitable, to pursue her Zone of Genius in coaching.
The journey to fulfillment is not about avoiding difficulty. It is about choosing the right kind of difficulty. Are you wrestling with the challenge of growth, or are you fighting against your own spirit?
The Lie of Innate Talent
For most of her career, Julee Kim operated with the belief that any skill could be acquired through application and effort. Then she decided to become a photographer, and a different set of rules suddenly applied. The world of creativity felt like a different universe governed by magic, not mechanics.
“I felt like the creative field was just a completely different universe,” she says. “It's like I just entered and I had nothing… I left all my experience behind.”
This shift triggered a profound case of imposter syndrome that paralyzed her for two years. She made zero dollars. Her secret fear, never before voiced, was that she was somehow incapable of improving in a creative domain. “The secret fear that I had never let myself like actually voice was I don't know if I'll ever get better,” she admits. This mindset is a common roadblock for analytical people entering creative fields, as explored in Do’s conversations about thinking and writing strategically.
Her breakthrough came not from a single epiphany but from confronting this false belief head-on. The story of the ceramics class, detailed in the book Art & Fear by David Bayles and Ted Orland, perfectly illustrates the principle she had to learn. In the story, a professor divides his class in two. One group is graded on the single, perfect pot they produce. The other group is graded purely on the quantity of work they create, a pile of pots weighing 50 pounds for an A, 40 for a B, and so on.
At the end of the term, a curious thing happened. The highest quality work all came from the “quantity” group. While the “quality” group was theorizing about perfection, the “quantity” group was busy making pots. They were learning from their mistakes, experimenting, and rapidly iterating. They were getting their reps in.
Chris Do’s own journey into directing mirrors this. To learn photography, he did not enroll in endless courses. “I bought a camera, I just took 10,000 bad photos and then eventually I got good enough,” he says. This is the path of the practitioner, not the theorist. As Kim eventually realized, it is impossible to learn something without doing it hands-on.
Her husband delivered the painful truth she needed to hear. While she was consuming courses and workshops, he asked a simple question: “When are you going to take photos?”
It was the necessary jolt. You cannot think your way to competence. You must act your way there. Creativity is not a mystical gift bestowed upon a chosen few. It is a skill, and like any other skill, it is forged through practice, repetition, and a mountain of imperfect work.
The Anatomy of a Fraud
Imposter syndrome is not a monolithic feeling. It is a complex internal experience that manifests in distinct patterns of thought and behavior. Julee Kim breaks it down into five primary types, each with its own logic and its own trap. Understanding which type you fall into is the first step toward dismantling its power.
This is the framework for understanding the voice that tells you you are a fraud.
- The Expert: This is the person addicted to learning, but often as an avoidance strategy. They feel they can never know enough. “These are people who feel like they have to take all the courses, get all the education, get all the certifications, the degrees,” Kim explains. The learning is used as a shield against the fear of putting oneself out there, the fear of doing the actual work and being judged for it. It is a form of productive procrastination that keeps them perpetually at the starting line.
- The Perfectionist: This archetype cannot tolerate anything less than 100%. A 98% success is seen as a 2% failure. They obsess over the small gap rather than celebrating the massive gain. “If they achieve a 98% they will be unhappy. They will focus on that missing 2% and they will just ruminate over it,” says Kim. When combined with The Expert, this creates a paralysing loop: “I can’t start until I know enough to do it perfectly.”
- The Soloist: This person believes they must do everything on their own. Asking for or accepting help is seen as a sign of weakness, a disqualifier of their achievement. “If they can't do something completely all on their own, they're going to feel like they don't get to own that achievement,” Kim states. This was her own struggle, feeling that the growth of her Instagram was illegitimate because Do had helped. It is a mindset that refuses to leverage the collective knowledge and support of a community, viewing collaboration as cheating.
- The Natural Genius: This type expects to be good at something from the very beginning. They judge themselves on the speed and ease with which they acquire a new skill. If it is difficult, their conclusion is simple: “This isn't for me.” They are the early quitters, mistaking the learning curve for a lack of innate talent. This is the person who starts a new job and feels like a fraud for not instantly knowing how everything works.
- The Superhero: This person measures their worth by how much they can juggle and how hard they work. They feel compelled to be everything to everyone: the perfect employee, parent, partner, and community leader. “It's the person who thinks they have to be everywhere all at once,” says Kim. They are often the last to leave the office and the first to burn out, because their self-worth is inextricably tied to constant achievement. For them, rest feels like worthlessness.
These are not just personality quirks. They are deeply ingrained belief systems that dictate how you interpret success, failure, and your own worth. They are the software running in the background, shaping every decision you make. Learning to see them for what they are, as explored in Do’s session on finding your niche and passion, is the only way to begin the debugging process.
Deconstructing the Inner Critic
Where does this voice of self-doubt come from? When you dissect the feelings of the Perfectionist, the Soloist, or the Expert, you eventually find they are not your own. They are echoes.
“When we keep pulling the threads,” Kim explains, “it eventually traces back to, because that is how I've been taught things should be.” For many, that teaching comes directly from parents.
Kim shares a painfully clear example. Upon receiving her wedding invitations, her father’s first reaction was not joy, but harsh critique. “These are the ugliest wedding invitations ever,” he told her, criticizing the color and the placement of her name. He had no context for American wedding conventions, but his default was to find fault. She grew up in an environment where her father would often say, “You wouldn't have done that if it weren't for us.” That message became embedded in her psyche, later manifesting as the Soloist’s inability to accept help and own her achievements.
This dynamic is common in many immigrant households, particularly what Do refers to as the “Asian tiger parent” model. The pressure to perform is immense. You are carrying the weight of your parents’ sacrifices. Anything less than exceptional achievement feels like a betrayal. When you bring home a 3.8 GPA, the question is not one of praise, but of inquiry: “Why isn't it 4.0?”
You internalize this external voice. It becomes your default operating system. Your parent’s criticism becomes your own inner critic. As a child, you are not taught to question adults. You accept their worldview as truth. The danger, Kim points out, is the lasting emotional harm. “We grow up, there are millions of choices we make, but out of those millions, there will be, let's say a dozen major choices,” she says. “And every time you come to that crossroads, you are probably making that choice listening to the voices in your head instead of to actually what you want.”
This is why understanding your origin story is so vital. It is not about blame. It is about awareness. It is about recognizing that the voice insisting you are not good enough, that you must be perfect, that you must do it alone, is a downloaded program. It is not the authentic you. This self-awareness is a core component of building an authentic personal brand, a topic Do frequently revisits, as in his talk on why being different is better than being better.
Once you identify the source of the program, you can begin to question its code. You can ask yourself, for the first time, separate from all obligations and expectations: “What do I want?”
Healthy Striving vs. Self-Sabotage
As Do listens to the descriptions of the five imposter types, he recognizes some of his own traits. He strives to be an expert. He works like a monster. He does not often ask for help. Is it possible that these same traits can be a source of confidence and success, rather than a syndrome of self-doubt?
Kim’s answer clarifies the crucial difference. The distinction is not in the behavior itself, but in the internal experience and the ultimate outcome. It is the difference between being driven and being dragged. You can strive for excellence, or you can be crippled by perfectionism.
One person sees a 98% and is motivated to learn from the missing 2% to improve the next iteration. The Perfectionist sees a 98% as a total failure and is consumed by shame.
Take asking for help. A true Soloist will actively reject help when it is offered. Do, in contrast, may not proactively ask for help, but he does not turn it away. Kim recalls a person on social media who, when offered help, replied, “I don't do handouts.” She sees this not as strength, but as a refusal to learn. “That is a person who refuses to leverage the collective knowledge of culture or the people around him,” she asserts. “They're actually inefficient at leveraging resources.”
Healthy striving is about leveraging all available resources, including the help and expertise of others, to achieve a goal. The Soloist's mindset views this as a compromise of their individual victory.
The difference lies between using these traits as tools for growth versus being victimized by them. The healthy achiever uses a drive for mastery to get better. The Expert uses a need for more certificates to avoid starting. The healthy achiever works hard toward a goal. The Superhero works hard because their identity depends on being seen as busy.
The core difference is whether you are in control of the trait, or the trait is in control of you. One empowers, the other sabotages. One leads to growth and resilience, the other to burnout and anxiety.
It is not about eliminating the drive to be better. It is about separating that drive from the toxic belief that your current self is fundamentally inadequate.
The Final Choice
Every time you pivot, every time you face the discomfort of a new challenge, you gather data. You learn what drains you and what energizes you. You learn to distinguish the painful struggle of growth from the soul-crushing weight of misalignment.
“Every time you go through something you don't enjoy and you're able to be honest with yourself about that, the next time you do something you don't enjoy, you're able to be honest sooner,” Kim says. “That painful learning curve actually get shorter and shorter.”
Your career is not a single decision you make once. It is a series of choices you make every day.
The path is not about finding a career where you never feel like an imposter. It is about building the resilience to act despite that feeling. It is about understanding that the feeling is a signal, not a verdict.
Stop waiting for the feeling of fraudulence to disappear before you start.
It will not.
Do it anyway.
TRANSCRIPT
we talk about career transitions as if it's a bad thing like you don't know your own mind you can't make up your mind you don't know yourself all of that was true but here's the thing it's like every time you go through something you don't enjoy and you're able to be honest with
yourself about that the next time you do something you don't enjoy you're able to be honest sooner so that painful learning curve actually get shorter and shorter I think what's what's really cool that you can speak to that a few other people can and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say you've
probably done more careers than three people put together if it's me then eight versions of my lifetime I still wouldn't have pursued as many things as you've pursued I literally have experience in so many different fields and almost all my clients are doing something that I've worked with or you know worked with
something very related to that but overall I think it's the fact that I have gone through this pain so many times that's what really makes me able to help people see that it's not so bad you will come out you're not going to die you'll survive this and you know what you're actually
going to be better for it the question I have for you is what's the voice inside your head that says it's time for me to switch lanes again man that is such a good question I don't think anyone has ever asked me this and I've been on so many interviews or podcasts I
think it's the feeling that my guest today is a person I first met on clubhouse and she was one of the toughest role plays I've ever had to do and she's reminded me a couple time since then that I said I would never work with you and here we are we're fast friends
as a couple years later and I'm delighted to have her on the show so for people don't who don't know who you are juel please introduce yourself hello everyone my name is juel Kim I'm a life coach and an executive coach love to work with creatives and Executives and what is your story
because you've taken many different career turns and take me back to the educational thing where you thought you're going to do X then you did this and you've had a lot of turns in your life so I'd love to hear a little bit about about those changes Uh Oh I thought we only
had 60 Minutes for this today all right we'll do an extended episode just for you yeah well I did the typical thing you know was straight A student in school go off to college I entered College as like an English major and then in the first semester I sort of do like a
hard like left turn like I don't think this is for me I go into math and I end up graduating with a degree in my in in math my parents didn't love this idea and so from math I went on to law school I dropped out in the first year or after after
the first year sorry it's been a while so spent a few years sort of spinning my wheels I was actually gaming fulltime back then and this is around 2004 so spent like about two years just gaming full-time like competitively and eventually get my first contract job working at you know various companies so
I've been an editor writer I've worked as a content manager at a company called AO I then moved on to Amazon was a product manager also a technical writer and then left to start my own business in photography and that's where I spent about 5 years and then from that point that's when
2020 hit I had just started to get successful with my business was actually making more money than I had ever made in my life whereas all these other photographers were you know saying I have no bookings my business is dying like these are real people who are struggling to pay their bills or
even to you know get groceries but I was I was okay like I was actually doing okay but right around that time I had a business coach who contacted me and she wanted help with her marketing and so this is how I ended up going into coaching for myself because working with her
you know I helped her with marketing she helped me with coaching and it was just is just like magic so working with her is why I went into coaching there's one part here that you kind of just brushed over you brushed over a lot but professional gamer I I didn't know that about
you or maybe I just forgot what game are you playing so I said I was gaming fulltime but not professionally I was ging competitively yeah I wasn't getting paid for it but I was playing World of Warcraft and I was playing you know ranked games wow and I ended up coming in like
first or third on my server like many times I was in the top 10 consistently for more than six months um almost a year I think wow I think you were the the fantasy person of many gamer boys it's like oh my God this a person who loves gaming they we played full-time
this is incredible every once in a while I see those influencers these attractive women who play games full-time and they're very serious about it I'm like damn where were you when I was a kid this is not like this is unfair this is wrong and I think it's all fabricated but I guess
it's not uh no it was definitely rare and you know don't get me wrong the gamer Community it's is hard if you're not a dude I definitely ran into a lot of hate just for being a girl people didn't want to play with me literally just cuz I was a girl but I
also did get a lot of love from just random guys I remember once I signed into like a team server it was TeamSpeak I was joining a raid of you know all these guys and then I say hello and like the whole room just went silent somebody was like is that a girl
I think I heard a girl well it's dangerous these days cuz you can use those voice they change your voice and Pitch you can sound like a British man if you wanted to you can sound like a black person you can sound like a girl so it's a it's a phenomenon like when
a woman enters into an arena dominated by men and it's kind of it's an anomaly so some people think it's novel some people think it's just another day so they just treat you like everybody else and there's some weirdos who are super sexist and can't deal with it and I think it's because
it's an ego thing where you can you can lose to lots of people it's very painful to lose to a 14-year-old kid I I'll admit that I get pwned all the time on Halo their reflexes are ridiculous I'm like what are you doing I didn't even know you could stand there how'd you
get there and then you're dead and then the other thing is like oh you got beat by a girl you can't handle yourself and so there's that part so I think it's them preemptively saying I'm going to suck and I can't handle being beaten by you I think yeah whatever it was it
was just I I I didn't know how to deal with it it was just so hateful but yeah yeah I'm sorry you had to deal with that but I think um as far as I can tell the world's changing it's not like it's not a tidal wave but it's starting to to move
a little bit so that those barriers are being broken down and I think it's super cool that it it didn't matter what size shaped gender you are if you like to do something you should be able to do it yeah I mean obviously I can't agree with jamore but I do know that
that's still the narrative a lot of people do cling on to and it's it's uncomfortable you got to face the reality that if you are someone who doesn't look like the other people in that field you're going into if you come from a different economic background you come from a different country whatever
it is if you are different it's going to be hard for you and you're probably going to feel uncomfortable to think otherwise is just unrealistic all right I was going to make a joke about who's this person called Jor because you're like I can't agree with Jor so I'm justess okay let's get
into it you you've gone through this crazy crazy list and it's a star contrast to my list because my list is like one so you were a straight A student you said you did the typical thing everybody that's not typical not all of us are straight A students myself included okay Jules just
said threw it out there like it's nothing and then you went to the typical Asian thing okay okay this is what Asian but Asian tiger parents tiger parents okay you were a good um tiger child I guess because you actually did it where I was a bad tiger kid something like that right
okay so straight A student English major switched over to math finished school started law school quit that dropped out did gaming editor writer uh content producer WR you know photography SEO and now coaching it's it's a little cray it's little C you you're you're korean-american and I have to say I saw this
post hopefully I don't get this screwed up up there's a picture of another Korean americ it's his first career ntional scientist second career astronaut third career Navy SEAL I'm like come on ukrainians are just so overachieving what the hell I just barely got into art school and it just barely finished is it
something about Korean Americans that are just built to be superior shoot I I'm not going to touch that man I feel like it's it's let's just say it's part of the Immigrant experience I think that when you are an immigrant you feel pressure to have to perform and to achieve because otherwise what
did your parents sacrifice everything for and by the way you you are just so full of it okay you're talking about these overachievers that guy with a NASA scientist I'm like dude that guy is on another level that's levels right there's levels this game he went to the next level yeah but but
there's you you're you're as like as successful As It Gets In many people's eyes like you have this business You've Won freaking emys it you've built a huge brand you've got all these followers you know you're one to talk is what I'm trying to say okay pot calling kettle black you're saying the
the thing is I've done well just doing one dumb thing just keep doing the same thing over and over again and just do it incrementally better every day every year and it seems to be working out pretty good so for someone like you it seems like you can excel at doing whatever so
your big I guess your biggest gift in your curses you could do whatever so what am I supposed to do and for people who don't know it's like is amazing at helping people with search ranking SEO optimization content marketing and she could be very very financially successful and she's like no I want
to do life coaching she just switches and I'm just sitting here when's the next switch coming but we we'll get more into that a little bit okay so you've gone through all these things the question I have for you is what's the voice inside your head that says it's time for me to
switch lines again man that is such a good question I don't think anyone has ever asked me this and I've been on so many interviews or podcasts I think it's the feeling that this is not for me I'll reach a point where at first you know going into it I think I'm like
everyone else everyone else is like got to make some money you know got to get good at this and then I have to become established I think we all go through this sort of trajectory when we enter like a new career but then for me I'll run across something and it'll either either
be like a Moment of Truth or well it's always a moment of truth but it'll either be something that really shows me it's either this is just so not for me what am I doing why am I wasting my time with this you know like I don't want to feel like a failure
right so it's that much harder to just let go but it's it's I would say the voice is just essentially like this isn't for me and I really hate this so why am I putting myself through this okay there's some things here and I'd like to like people back this a little bit
if we can which is I think whenever we do something new it's exciting and then there's this part where we hate we all hate it requires discipline whether it's exercise learning a new skill anything like that it's then it's the the rigor to push through the thing that you hate and and then
eventually you get good enough that you actually love it so what makes you so different and then all these people who keep switching things and then start over at the bottom of the ladder again or maybe you're all the same I don't know I think the difference is there are two different types
of discomfort that are on the table here as far as I'm understanding this okay so there's the discomfort when you start something new we all really hate to suck at something we universally hate it right like I I don't think I've ever met someone who says I love being bad at something so
that's the first point of like critical mass you have to learn to get through that I'm not saying you have to love it but you do have to learn to get through that push through it somehow maybe accept it at least accept it right you're not good at it you have to learn
to accept that but you also have to learn to accept that it is possible for you to improve so I think one of the curses of the creative mindset is we all or many of us subscribe to the idea that creativity is something you're either born with or you're not and when you
think like that you think that you either have it or you don't right so therefore if you see yourself really being bad at something probably think you can't improve prove and that was my biggest fear I never had that problem before until I entered photography and because it was creative that's when I
fell into that pit hole that secret fear that I had never let myself like actually voice was I don't know if I'll ever get better like I'm somehow so dumb I cannot improve when I finally push through that right I would say The Human Experience it is inevitable that you will grow and
improve it's impossible not to as long as you try so when you're asking me about the difference right between me and other people I would say most people will phase out at that first time like that first point of difficulty which is facing that you are just not good at this what I've
always been through like my many career like switches is I was actually I would reach that point of being really good and so I would reach a second point of having to decide do I really want to commit more time and energy to this I've reached a point where I feel like I'm
pretty decent so you know in law school I drop out my story is not like how a lot of people who drop out a law school is I was actually in the top 10 or 20% I requested my transcript because I was thinking about going back to law school maybe you know a
few few years later and I looked at my report card and I was like oh my God my grades are they were all A's I was actually really shocked I didn't remember that and so this is the thing there's a difference between washing out because you don't even give yourself the chance to
actually become good at it and then there's a difference between making a choice where it's no longer about that right it's whether you actually want this are those the two differences there where the discomfort of sucking so much causes you to quit as opposed to you know I'm good at this but asking
yourself the bigger question is this something I want to get really good at I would say so that's something you've probably heard of the zone of Genius right so for anyone who doesn't know this right gay Hendrick came up with this excellent Theory or model whatever you want to call it he says
most people are are stuck in their zone of Excellence most people will spend most of their lives doing something they're good at and they do not push on to do something they love and the thing they're actually meant to do the thing that they can only do because that's their actual gift we
all kind of get mired in this idea of well I'm good at it and it makes me money or it Mak you know it brings me something and it's really hard to let go that it's a theme and a topic that keeps coming up one that I'm very passionate about and the more
I kind of t into this energy this idea the more I'm seeing it in different forms um I think it was Picasso who had this quote says the meaning of life is to find your gift and the purpose of life is to give it away so we're talking about the gift you just
mentioned the gift and I think we we put air quotes in the word gift right now because it means a lot of different things and then I'm hearing these um what are they called New Age Mystics who talk about your highest your highest purpose is to find your passion the thing that gives
you Joy and follow that with all of your heart because then you elevate your frequency your energy and that's what we're supposed to be doing and so here you are saying okay I could be good at lots of things I could be good at SEO I could be good at content writing um
I could be good at maybe even being the lawyer I don't know but you're like is that really my gift and so the last transition that you made and I remember having this conversation with you about saying Chris um I think I'm going to pursue this I want to be a life coach
I'm gonna go get the training I'm gonna be certified I'm gonna do this thing and I was like juel what are you doing this is kind of crazy you're doing great with what you're doing you're you're known for it you have a skill and an act for this why would you do that
and you said what this isn't going to pay me in a good light cuz it sounds like I was running away but I think I said at the time SEO was killing me felt like it was just draining the life out of me and you know I had clients you know I followed
the plan that you and I had kind of worked out together and it was an amazing plan and literally I just did everything that we agreed that I would do and success was almost instant like I I was actually mind-boggled because I had never experienced something so quick happening like that but then
I reached that point again right it's like I know I'm good at this I know I can help people I wasn't a fan of the type of clients I was working with which I think might have been my mistake there m i I didn't really put in the effort to work with the
right kind of client so that was part of it you know the the soul sucking energy but yeah it was it was that you know I was just like I don't believe life is meant to be spent feeling constantly drained hating your work every time you work yeah I think there's something to
that though about being persistent and and and tempering your expectations such that you can go through the first I think three years of doing something and it's gonna suck and it gets progressively less bad and then eventually gets kind of okay and tolerable then it gets really good because I think of my
own life and career and that the first couple of creative jobs that I had as a freelancer and then as a business owner there weren't the best opportunities they weren't the best clients and yes I was expecting to work with Nike which we eventually did or a big car company which we did
did but it wasn't overnight it was just grinding it out like one of the first gigs that I got as I was graduating from Arts Center as a freelancer was designing a brochure for like a third fourth tier Bank like I did not go to Art School to design brochures a trifold brochure
for a non-name bank it's like the most prosaic thing you could get me to do I wanted to jump off the train if you will but then you kind of stick it out and so I think you you do recognize something there that what was killing you was the kinds of relationships you're
having the things you had to exchange your time for your passion your energy and it wasn't for people that that you liked or loved and that probably hurt hurt it for a bit and I think as I know you now there's there's some I I guess some some uh doors being cracked open
a little bit that you might return to doing a little bit of that but making sure it's aligned with the people you want to work with the things that keep you Joy and I think you're you're absolutely right here and if anything this podcast the conversations that I have is to hopefully Inspire
that kind of joy that spark in people that they were told to do something and at some point you do wake up and you realize my life is short my time here on Earth is finite I I must listen to that inner creative soul that urg to do what it is I was
put on Earth to do and so when I when I invite guests to come on the show it's because I want them to tell their story and so that somebody out there whoever is listening to this can hear that and say oh wait I identify with this person this story relates and I
do want to pick up on something that you mentioned which was you were okay with this mindset that whatever you pursued you're going to be good at if you put in the work but when it came to this quote unquote artistic Endeavor of Photography you use different rules here all of a sudden
it became binary everything else was a skill that could be acquired for some reason creativity art design photography was either you got it or you don't got it and nothing you do can improve that but it turns out that's not true clearly uh and where was it in that point in which like
you said it was a 5-year Journey where you started to say you no this is something I can acquire these are skills that I can I can learn and developed just like everything else what was that like there's a lot that goes into this I think I hit that point that we're talking
about where I finally started to come out of that mindset and to be honest you know I had imposter syndrome I would say it was probably towards the end of 2 years so I was you know I say 5 years but it's really only 3 years having a business cuz the first two
years did not make any money made zero dollars because I was so stuck in imposter syndrome and what i experienc is probably pretty common for Asians or asian-americans because you grow up in an Asian tiger household you are taught that everything you do is for the purpose of making money there there's no
room to spend your time or to pursue things just because you like to and then of course the idea of creative Pursuits is just like an immediate like you know X you're going to be a doctor you're going to be a lawyer you're going to be an engineer and and that's about it
you know I know this story is pretty common and you come from that sort of upbringing you've always thought creative stuff is just kind of like H like B tier or just it's for other people who have amazing gifts but not for me and I never thought of myself as creative you know
did not see myself that I'm not even a visual thinker I'm not a visual person so you think about somebody like that going into photography it's like what on Earth possess you to do that and so with all of this stuff like floating around in my head you're right like it's like I
did suddenly switch like all of my rule system up until that point I did always think you know just apply myself I can learn in it you know I'll I'll be fine not going to be great at it from the get-go but you know I I will get better but it's because I
felt like the creative field was just a completely different Universe it's like I just entered and I had nothing it's like I left all my experience behind and that was really hard and also the other thing I all bring up I think it was the very first time I actually encountered a true
Challenge and so you have to think of challenges it's not just something that's hard but what makes challenges you know challenging is the fact that it is the unexpected it is something you have not encountered or anticipated before which is what makes it so hard to deal with and that was the thing
I had not really understood impostor syndrome did not know that feeling of a fraud you know I didn't go to school for this so therefore I'm not legit blah blah blah you know story goes on I wonder how moving through a bunch of different career Pursuits interests fi study and landing on where
you are now how does that impact your ability to coach other people because I'm I have the opposite story so I'm just taking notes for myself here because sometimes I I I say to people and I'm not even saying this as a false false humility I I genuinely believe this I'm a terrible
teacher I really am and some people are no we love you I'm like I'm glad you do but I'm a terrible teacher because it seems to me like what I pursue just works out and I just keep doing that so when people aren't able to achieve and can't find that laser focus haven't
already tapped into their their gift their zone of Genius then I'm like why don't you just do it and here you are you're switching from one thing to the next and finding what presumably now is what you were meant to do your gift I I have to imagine you could tell better stories
you can relate you can share certain experiences that I just can't tap into what are your thoughts on that here's the thing I think what really makes you special as a teacher is you have this unwavering confidence in people in general yourself and other people and this makes you so good at motivating
people like I still remember this time I was just reflecting this morning literally there was a clubhouse call you and I did with you know Martha and Lola and at some point in the call you made this comment offhandedly I know you don't remember it but you said just like Jordan know SS
it every time or something like that and this was two years ago I remember feeling very taken aack and a little bit like shaky like again that impostor syndrome like oh I've got Chris fold or you know he's just seeing like the best part like sometimes and he thinks I'm better than I
really am but that's the thing that makes you special as a teacher it's the fact that you just you speak in a way that just assumes that person is going to do it and make it and it makes the person feel like they can achieve it now I think what makes me different
from you is yes because I've had such like a like wild variety of careers I would say I've tried more careers than you know three people put together like there's stuff I haven't even told you about like I used to be an Avon lady you know I've done the multi-level marketing that there
are some pieces to this I don't enjoy professional skateboarder maybe too no what was that professional skateboarder it's like I'm trying to like figure out what career have you not tried I know it's uh skateboarding not for me fell off bruise my tailbone that was an instant like uh lots of crying screaming
no yeah not physically gifted okay okay but yeah I would say I've tried more careers than like three or more people put together I think that is what gives me the gift to coach people because I literally have experience in so many different fields and almost all my clients are doing something that
I've worked with or you know worked with something very related to that but overall I think it's the fact that I have gone through this pain so many times that's what really makes me able to help people see that it's not so bad you will come out you're not going to die you'll
survive this and you know what you're actually going to be better for it and it's it's the fact that I have gone through so many career transitions that's the thing because we talk about career transitions as if it's a bad thing like you don't know your own mind you can't make up your
mind you don't know yourself all of that was true but here's the thing it's like every time you go through something you don't enjoy and you're able to be honest with yourself about that the next time you do something you don't enjoy you're able to be honest sooner so that painful learning curve
actually get shorter and shorter okay I think what's what's really cool that you can speak to that a few other people can and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say you've probably done more careers than three people put together if it's me then eight versions of my lifetime I still wouldn't have
pursued as many things as you've pursued but that you can recognize the behavior because you once lived it and I think that's really a way to connect with people to understand their pain and to be able to say like you know I I I'm going to empathize with you for half a minute
here we're going to talk about this and then you all can connect where I'm like I don't get it I just don't get it let's go do this and you know stop complaining you know either do it or don't I don't want to talk to you anymore that kind of brutal coaching style
that's that tough Asian Dad love right there little bit you know the funny thing is we recently had a conversation with our friend NY toari on linkton about coaches The Good the Bad and the Ugly and I think you were asking me like what makes you a good coach I'm like I don't
even know if I'm a coach I've studied nothing I've done nothing I say I I I play a therapist on TV and that's the level of which I've gone through like if you if you peel peel back the layers like two layers deeper there would be nothing there because that's as deep as
I went but surprisingly people haven't pushed me there and here you are you kind of drop out for a little bit which is kind of fascinating to me drop out meaning you're not doing client work you don't you're not going to take on any paying work and so now you're going to pretty
much live in debt while you pursue yet more training so I'm want to ask you this question I hope you don't find this to be insulting but I do ask people who do this quite often are you addicted to learning oh heck yeah 100% you know in impostor syndrome there are five types
of imposter syndrome okay and one of them is called the expert type that is literally this this is so many people these are people who feel like they have to take all the courses get all the education get all the certifications the degrees and and there is you know and so I want
to differentiate there is addicted to learning because you just enjoy the the sheer rush and the thrill from actually acquiring new knowledge new skills you never had before like there is a special joy to that but there is a difference when you are using that learning or to go down the learning path
as a coping mechanism because you cannot deal with the discomfort of really sucking at something or the fear of putting yourself out there the fear of changing the fear of becoming someone you have never been before you know to actually switch careers I see so many people out there where they've been doing
their current career for like 20 years 30 years and they really want to switch over they want to start a business or they want to you know do something different and they're just sitting there getting course after course more certifications and it's like when are you going to do the thing it's like
I went through the same thing which is why I recognize it you know when I was doing photography I told you two years making no money that's not an exaggeration I was doing exactly that I was taking all the courses I was you know going to workshops and at some point my husband
goes when are you going to take photos I was like ouch ouch man husband of the Year [Laughter] material he's pretty good I would say as a partner goes he's really good at sometimes telling me the thing that I have to hear don't want to hear it but you know I got to
hear it I say that to people we all need a truth Sayer in our life somebody you know that loves you unconditionally but who's also not going to pull punches and sugar coat things to say uh yeah being a photographer means you actually have to go take photos Joel you're like oh right
right right I just can't keep learning right I got to apply that and you know again I I like I tell you right now if if we were twins born from the same parents and separated at Birth we could not be the more opposite we really couldn't so I find this fascinating to
me because when I got into motion design I was given opportunities to direct quote unquote direct commercials and music videos and I even know what I'm doing and what I did was I bought a camera I just took 10,000 bad photos and then eventually I got good enough so I can show up
on set and said let's change the lens to this and let's open up the aperture to that and I'm thinking something like this and I'm an anti- manuals anti- coaching anti not that I don't believe in them it's just my style of learning is just give me the stuff I'll do it and
when I'm stuck I'll ask somebody I just need like two sentences to like what am I doing wrong and then I'll figure out the rest so it's kind of interesting where you you dive into it like for two years getting training all that kind of stuff and I'm just taking 10,000 bad photos
we probably wind up at the same place in two years like we both know photography at that point but it's just like whoa just different styles of learning I see you shaking your head why are you shaking your head yeah yeah I would say we did not arrive at the same point you
taking 10,000 photos you probably got to the point like a year and 6 months before I did or maybe even sooner and so there is a study like right I think it was with either photography or pottery and the study has been replicated many many times I know you know this story okay
it's where a professor starts a new class it's the beginning of the year and he divides the class up right the students randomly half and half one group of students is told they only have to turn in one final project and that's what they're going to be graded on the other students are
told you can instead get your grade on just actually doing I I forget how many hundreds of of things and turning that whole collection in and by the end of the semester he looks at the quality of the work that's come out and hands down without exception all the students from the group
where they just turned in you know all the hundreds of photos hands down quality of work was better so this is the thing I think some people think that they're better at learning a different way and I just I don't actually believe that it is impossible to actually learn something without doing it
handson you simply cannot know if you haven't actually done it you can try to think you know but you really don't you you just shattered one of my beliefs which is I watch a lot of mix Marsh Arts I watch some training videos in self-defense I keep thinking boy if I get into
a scrap on the street I'm going to be all right but probably that's just in my mind I'm get punched in the face and lose a tooth or something uh I'm not going to disagree I'm not going to say anything no comment I believe that's you agreeing um okay you you briefly mentioned
there are five types of impostor syndrome you mentioned the expert type which is I need to go and study and there's two kinds of studying study to avoid doing the work and and mostly just avoid rejection because if I don't ever do anything no one will know I think you reference people the
people in quotes but I think mutual friends of ours I won't say their name and they'll know exactly who they are and there's the other type of expert which is I'm going to learn so I can develop my craft they're a little bit different they kind of look the same from outside but
one has a different intention uh whether it's subconscious or conscious what are the other four types so the other types of impostor syndrome you know I already went over the expert type the one that I think most uh creatives will especially identify with is the natural um sorry the perfectionist okay so it
it's pretty much like what you expect like it it is what it sounds like now I will say in main society people are not really using the term perfectionist the way it is intended and I'm talking when we're in the context of imposter syndrome this is the person where if they achieve a
98% they will be unhappy they will focus on that missing 2% and they will just ruminate over it they will obsess over like why they didn't get the missing 2% and they will very often say this was all like I didn't get you know it was only a 98% quote unquote only and
so if you have somebody who experiences both the perfectionist and the expert type together this is the person who never gets anything started they will use that learning I don't know enough therefore I can't produce a perfect result so they almost expect to produce it like very quickly like they have to be
perfect like right off the bat of course it's just not realistic like nobody is like that it's like almost impossible and yet we all shoot for that impossibility like we think it's possible and we think that's how it's supposed to be which is I think the LIE the next type is The Soloist
this is the person who thinks they have to do everything on their own they cannot ask for help and in fact they will reject offers of help from other people because to accept a help will mean they didn't actually do it so if they can't do something completely all on their own they're
going to feel like they don't get to own that achievement and I experienced something similar when we worked on my Instagram together there was a big part of me that felt like I don't actually deserve this growth because you helped me these people would never have followed me if you hadn't helped me
and therefore these followers aren't really mine they're your followers is what I was thinking damn holy cow that's harsh I'm listening to you say this and my heart's like breaking jeel I know we've talked about this before but I want to bring our audience into this I mean I'm not an emotional person
but I feel like I want to cry I really do because it's like man you put in the work you do the work and you can't can't even receive the credit for it for yourself and it's not like coming from a person like me I'm not saying well you know juel you wouldn't
be here if it wasn't for me it's like it's your default inner voice like I'm I'm just I'm I'm hurtful I'm sad for you I I don't know how else to describe it well I get the sense that you and I grew up with very different parents my parents you know don't get
me wrong I love them with all my heart but sometimes bless their souls I really wish they would just keep something a thought in their head they don't have to tell me everything they think yeah and the day that I sent them or the day they received my wedding invitations right what is
supposed to be a joyous occasion getting people to you know actually RSVP they get the invite they call me up my dad goes these are the ugliest wedding invitations ever like why did you choose this color these are just terrible and who told you that your name should come first so mind you
my parents had never been to a wedding ever they don't understand that these are the conventions of weddings in the US right there's certain styles to adhere to they don't understand any of this and their default is to criticize the hell out of my wedding imitations that is how I grew up a
lot of the times when I did something my dad was say you wouldn't you wouldn't have done that if it weren't for us or you know something and I didn't realize it at the time but you know that became embedded in in my brain you know like I just just accepted that that
was true like total truth and of course it is but it is different to come from that sort of upbringing versus someone like you I think when I told you a little bit of how I was feeling you told me like hey stop that you know I can ask people to follow you
but they're not going to follow you if they don't actually see value in you know I can open the door but the person has to walk through and it goes on both sides of the door and I think that's what makes it so hard is when you have that sort of critical inner
voice you accept so many things as true and you think you don't deserve this unless you do it by yourself or unless you're perfect you know there are so many reasons like why are we torturing ourselves this way I I think we're talking about the Asian-American immigrant Refugee experience but I think there's
lots of people who can relate to this and if you're not I'll I'll use use this opportunity to do a little public service announcement for let's just say you non-asian non-immigrant types where you're like what this exist parents are terrible let's call the Child Protection Service I I I tell you right now
looking back on my life I I was I'm pretty blessed to have the parents that I have but there were moments when I'm like I'm watching those TV shows like if your parents say this to you here's the phone number and I'm like I'm gonna tell on my dad that's it like I
can't handle this anymore but then I'm hearing your story and I I keep hearing this thing this recurring theme about like how Asian parents are Asian parents are amazing for lots of reasons and they're terrible for a couple so I'm not here to say like they're they're bad or but it's like we
get to choose what kind of parents we want to be and we can pick from any culture cultures that are not even ours and say that's a pretty good practice that's so we can be this hybrid blend and I always thought that was the advantage of of immigrants but they don't take advantage
of that what you do know with Asian parents is you know where you stand because they don't beat around the bush at all you walk in the room if you ke five pounds they say you fat you're not you eating too much and it's like uh hello Auntie I just saw you but
you also know when you walk in and they throw their arms around your cheek it's like you're the most handsome person and you're like it's true isn't it I am aren't I you know because there's no BS there's none of that kind of Western pleasantry but here's another downfall I don't even know
if this is an Asian thing and those of you are listening to this please chime in at some point and let me know which is I think they think they know everything which is like the most banana thing ever like if you're having back pain they're like oh because you're not eating enough
uh you know not getting enough iron it's like how do you even know that Mom Dad it's like this is incredible when did you get your medical degree it's just incredible so here you are in the creative space having gone to western style weddings and understanding what you want what you don't want
you're going to design this the way that you want and then they're going to come in opine about every single thing and I I'm going to ask for your help on this but I suspect this is true when you get 98% you're like why didn't I get that 2% obviously in my opinion
it's not your voice that's your mom or dad's voice you come home with a report card it's like I got a I got a 3.8 GPA this year mom dad and they're like why isn't at 4.0 you know your cousin has got a 4.2 they're not looking at for you've brought to the
table it's like just what you're lacking and so you download that default parent operating system and it could be crippling okay now I've said my piece juel as a person who studied this stuff unpack that for us the short answer is absolutely totally yes and the way when I work with a client
if I see some of that coming up in a session right they're they're just wailing about the missing 2% yeah I asked them what is making you focus on this 2% instead of the 98% you do have and when we keep pulling the threads it eventually traces back to because that is how
I've been taught things should be so maybe it's your parents maybe it's your teacher it's some figure of Authority for most people it's going to be your parents but a lot of times it's also your teachers and the thing is that as children we are not taught to question adults we're taught to
we should always obey or listen to adults unless it's a situation of direct physical harm but you know what I actually think that the emotional harm that we suffer from other people's beliefs being projected on us and then that sort of sinks into our Essence that does a lot more harm because you
know what it's like we grow up there are millions of choices we make but out of those Millions there will be let's say a dozen major choices major life event choices and every time you come to that crossroads you are probably making that choice listening to the voices in your head instead of
to actually what you want you the person minus all the other people around you minus you know your obligations to your parents or to your culture or to society or the expectations you might carry as a female or a male or a non-binary you know what whatever it is have you ever just
sat there and asked yourself what do I want and only I it's one of these things where I keep thinking to myself I'm a generally like super positive optimistic person and anybody who wants to throw around their negative energy I just like don't keep your negative energy to yourself because you're reigning on
my parade and I'm happy to be the leader of my parade and I think there's this expression about the definition of a pessimist versus an optimist which is the pessimist finds a difficulty in the opportunity and The Optimist finds the opportunity the difficult and and there we are it's like it could be
your teacher your friend a relative an uncle somebody is like always just oh that's not going to work that's dangerous or what makes you think you can do that and boy it's like if you hear that enough times you forget that it's not even your voice anymore you internalize it so much so
deeply that it starts to impact you okay we talked about the expert we talked about the perfectionist The Soloist what are the other two juel the other two are the superhero and the natural genius genius natural genius so I'll go over the natural genius because this is also again a lot of creatives
this is where you expect yourself to be good at something from day one which makes no sense and you know these people will sit there and be rationally intelligent about this when they're talking about other people and yet they hold those expectations for for themselves so this is a person who starts a
new career or a new field and they think they should already know everything and I'm like what on Earth how is that even possible like that's not really possible this is a person who starts a new job and expects themselves to know everything about how the team Works how the company Works how
all the tools and systems work from day one and then the second thing that's really unique to the Natural genius type is they judge themselves on the speed and ease with which they acquire competence so how quickly and how easily they learn something or are able to learn something and therefore if something
is difficult what happens they're like oh this isn't for me so they also tend to be the very early quitters because they have these very unrealistic expectations now for the superhero type this is the person who thinks they have to be everything they have to be good at everything and they have to
be that person who is everything to everyone and very easy way to sort of spot them is they think that they're going to be the ones who work the hardest they may not think that they are the smartest or the most naturally gifted but they're thinking is I'm going to grind this out
and I'm going to become better at you it may take me a million years but I will eventually get there they're the ones who are usually last to leave the work office they're the ones who hold multiple obligations where I would say the typical average person would be like wow that is a
lot how do you have so much going on so they might be the PTA president they might be the church leader they you know and they're working a 9 to-5 and they have like five kids you know and they show up for all of their husband's work functions or vice versa it's it's
the person who thinks they have to be everywhere all at once this person is the one who is most prone to burn out for obvious reasons right but it is that feeling of if I'm not working I'm not achieving and if I'm not achieving then I'm not worthy or even I'm worthless what
am I doing with my life so there's a extreme tie to achievement they're not achieving if they're not looking to their next goal so this person will get a promotion and they're already over it like 2 Days Later they're already like what's next it's kind of interesting because I'm I'm just double-checking with
myself like how many of these traits do I exhibit as the way you describe it I don't think I have impostor syndrome uh or at least I don't have it anymore or maybe it doesn't rear its head up as often as it used to but as I look at your list it's like
shoot I I think I'm an expert I think I'm a natural genius I'm pretty good at the things I start uh sometimes I could work like a monster so yeah superhero and people often ask me do I need help and I I don't generally ask for help uh it's not because I think
I I I I don't want help it's just I don't know how it asks for it in a way that I think benefits both of us so I'm like I don't know and I don't know if I have I'm a perfectionist but I strive to like make things better all the time so
it's like Evolution towards Perfection but not out of the gate so is it possible to look at these same traits and say that's what led me to my self-confidence versus being an impostor what do you think I think the difference between overcoming challenges you know in a healthy manner versus succumbing to imposter
syndrome that's the difference you're describing so let's take the thing for asking for help for for example because that's something I've actually noticed about you you may not ask for help but you also don't turn it away when it's offered and that's something that isn't very common you know just the other day
I was reading someone's Facebook post and this guy was saying you know he's been having such a hard time you know blah blah blah and someone says why don't why don't you ask for help I'm sure there would be people who would be willing to help you out and the original poster replies
with I don't do handouts oo and I'm like dude live in a society you're not like some hermit living on top of a mountain by yourself it is not a Badge of Courage to suffer alone it's not especially when there's this stubborn refusal to ask for or to ask or even to accept
help from others so many people especially men subscribe to that theory they think they can't ask for help and some people they don't want to be a burden to others I get that but to actually reject help that's not a Badge of Courage and so many people treat it like it is it's
just I look at that kind of person I'm like that is a person who refuses to learn who refuses to leverage the collective knowledge of culture or the people around him the community they refuse to learn and they're actually inefficient at leveraging resources that's how I see that that's what makes you really
different perfectionism you mentioned how you always strive to make things better to improve upon things and maybe maybe when they get to Perfection the major difference here is striving for excellence versus striving for Perfection and I would say perfectionism in the context we've been talking in the destructive pattern okay it is the
pursuit of everything that is wrong it is the pursuit of the worst within us within what we do and to never accept that is good enough that is the complete opposite of what you're talking about which is simply looking for ways to make things better there's nothing wrong with that and so if
you're sitting here you're listening and you're asking yourself how do I know if it's healthy or unhealthy I would say look at how it makes you feel look at how it makes you make certain choices as soon as you start to feel like something isn't good enough or you're not going to take
that next step or you're not going to contact someone you're not going to send this email you're not going to post this thing to your website if you feel small if you feel like you're not good enough that's usually a sign you're starting to Veer towards the unhealthy side this was just a
an elaborate ploy for me to fish for compliments from you appreciate by well you're the person who said you're happy to be the leader of your own parade I love that by the way so good am I just draw you in I I think there's a quote here I wrote it down from
Jim Rona I'm going to butcher it but it's it's okay for you to work hard for the things that you want while being happy with what you have and I think that's the balance when you were describing it where you can say you know what I can improve this website but I did
it and I'm happy with what I have so I'm simultaneously ambitious and I want to be a world beater but I'm also super gracious with myself to say you know what all right that's what you could do with what you have and tomorrow will be a better day and and we're cool with
this and you know I have friends um from different fields of expertise and of course they want to jump in there immedately say Chris you shouldn't be doing that that's not good I'm like I know it's not perfect but I'm working on like no that's not that's not to your standard I'm like
you don't know what my standard is that's not to your standard but I'm cool with this I'm cool if you want to help great uh whatever but I'm I try not to let their their their critical voice even though it comes from a really good place to affect how I feel about myself
I'll give you an example I'm not just gonna say this right I have very short eyelashes relatively speaking I don't have those thick dark eyebrows and if you want to be very expressive in camera you need thick dark eyebrows and so I'm I'm at my dermatologist I'm like oh does that thing work
they're like what this and it's like a product called latis I'm not being paid for this by the way and they're like it does look at my eyelashes I'm like damn you're saying from that I'm going give me a box and and they think they're like taking a back because I don't think
most guys even care this much about like their skin or all these things and then I I've been I've been trying it out you know and then I I go to my wife baby look at my eyes and I'm blinking at her I'm like you notice anything different she goes no you have
something in your eye I'm like no no look at my eyes baby look at my eyes anything different she goes no I'm like you mean you mean my eyelashes aren't any longer they're not I can't even tell I I can't even tell myself I'm just playing around with her she goes what are
you doing babe I'm like I'm trying this product she goes you know when you wear glasses people can't even see it so isn't it just a waste of your time and I'm like I just give her a look I don't say anything and I just kind of walk away and then later on
she comes over to me it's like okay I'm sorry you do whatever makes you happy I'm not here to rain on your parade and it's like if it gives you Joy do it I'm like I'm just trying stuff I don't know and I was we landed in a very nice place not that
I was angry like God there's just so many people out in the world who want to tell you what you're doing isn't cool and you know I've lived with that for a long time I'm not going to deal with that anymore so I just usually smile when people throw their opinions at me
and I just kind of gently walk away and like okay so be it there I've said it juel oh my God the part where you just said we're just trying stuff I don't know that I think that is the philosophy right there you know when you ask me like how did I go
through so many careers it's like literally that I'm just trying stuff I don't know man I get out of my face right it's like ideally I could go back to 20 years ago and you know take these personality tests or take these career personality things there's so many of them out there now
I didn't have that so I was proceeding as best I knew but the one thing I knew that I didn't want was this life feeling like the golden handcuffs you know hating my life getting up every Monday going to a job I hated doing work I hated being around people I didn't really
like for what a life of meh no thank you so when you were just saying you know we're just trying stuff I don't know so what if we all gave ourselves the grace to just take that statement in clearly that's not as easy to do as it is for us to say because
so many people have some challenges around this and the thing is when my kids try stuff I'm like I might have an opinion they just bite my tongue like nope you get to try stuff too as long as you can live with the consequences and then you're doing it on your dime try
as many things as you want sometimes I'll support it sometimes it's like no you're on your own in this one kid that's fine by me right so I leave that open now there's something that you wrote recently that I saw on social I think it's time that we talk about this because I
was saying I like fishing for a compliment it's a theme of compliments like you you wrote how you receive a compliment says a lot about your the inner dialogue here so I think in in one of your posts recently or video you said okay so if somebody says something nice to you how
do you respond to that when somebody pays you a genuine compliment take me through the the concept and explain what you're talking about please so compliments and how we take them ended up being a hotter topic than I ever realized it's something super interesting I've been see I've been seeing on Tik Tok
and on instagr and for whatever reason most of us confuse humility with we should not be confident right if we're confident that means arrogance right that's that's not the case at all and some of us come from cultures where it's simply the norm to turn away a compliment to deflect a compliment or
to turn this into some sort of weird like compliment battle it's like someone says well I like your purse oh yeah I like your hair well I like your outfit you know is very strange and ridiculous to me but that's just how I grew up so one of the more subtle signs of
impostor syndrome this is it right here how you handle a compliment so if someone says for example oh you really you did a really good job with that presentation want you to look at what your reaction is is your reaction to say thank you or more likely are you one of the majority
of the people that say says oh this this was nothing oh this this was nothing special or you say I had help no I I only got this this good because someone helped me and so that's why I had some of that difficulty with you helping me with Instagram oh I only got
here because Chris help me that was really hard for me cuz it felt so true and here's the thing it's like something can be true you did help me like obviously you did but what I was doing in that moment that was just so terrible for myself is I was throwing away all
the work I did I was throwing away the fact that I came up with these ideas it's not like you sat here and wrote my post for me it's not like you told me what to write about I did that on my own and yet I felt all of that was just in
the trash did not exist and so look at how you take a compliment or even a gift same thing you know people feel like they accept the gift and then what's the thing they feel like they have to immediately reciprocate so ask yourself like what kind of energy is that coming from is
it I genuinely want to give this person A gift just because I want to or is it because I don't want to owe someone something and so even the act of receiving a compliment or receiving receiving a gift if it triggers I don't want to owe someone something that's the thing to look
at and by the way like the reason why I'm going over some of these examples like I had help um I had connections oh they just liked me those are all very like subtle signs of impostor syndrome there's a lot of stuff to talk about here I want to talk about the gifts
I also want to talk about the compliments then I'll get you to psychoanalyze it I think as a person who who who grew up painfully shy socially awkward any amount of attention was not wanted especially around people that I'm uncomfortable or don't know strangers essentially and so the first part of my life
is somebody's like oh you're really good at math like well it's not even like that I wouldn't say anything no I don't want you to even look at me right now I I I just can't process now if I'm at home with my family my uncles my relatives who would say oh you're
you're good at drawing I'm like thank you that was cool because I was comfortable and so for me it was just about my introversion my lack of social skills something like that but as we move on in life if somebody walks up to me and says your work is amazing I say thank
you I don't feel compelled to say nice things back to them because I only want to say it if it's true I know it's a knee-jerk reaction I'll just say thank you now if if I can shed some light on what's going on my brain I would say it's data it's somebody's opinion
and I appreciate their opinion and it was said kindly to me but it's just data I already knew before they said if it was good or it was bad there's a few times in which it's in the gray area where I'm like is it good I'm not quite sure just yet yet so
when people say to me it's good that's just confirmation for me it's confirmation bias it's like oh yeah I I'm pretty sure it was and if somebody says it's bad I'm like yeah no I don't think so I think that's your opinion that's okay you're allowed to have it you said it nicely
I appreciate it if you said it meanly it's okay too it's just data um so what what is going on with me and how I'm processing that in terms of like Maps out with what you've observed let's say you're the control okay okay um but control as in this is not how Okay
I I should not call you the control never mind that let's say you're this other category of people which unfortunately I would say is far in the minority the thing that you are experiencing or you've gotten to this place is what you just said you already know you see what you do and
you have already made up your mind on what that thing is whether it's good bad or neutral whatever it is you have made up your mind you've decided that this is your assessment and that's what's going to matter most sometimes you have these situations where you might not be so sure but that
doesn't seem to be your norm and you said you know before anyone even says anything so people who tell you what you already know it's like great you agree people who tell you something totally in disagreement you're like that's okay you're entitled to your opinion I would say that's probably one of the
healthiest responses to have to these kind of situations because what you are not doing is seeking approval or validation from people outside of yourself and at some point in your life you have learned to give these things to yourself and you're kind of like a closed circuit right you have everything you're you're
the self-sustaining ecosystem and therefore you can allow other people to be who they are because you don't actually need any anything from them what happens for most people especially creatives they create something they take a photo they design a website they create a logo whatever it is and then they go and ask
people what do you think what do you think and they're kind of like that Weather Vein you know if the person says this is amazing you know then they're pointing in One Direction but then they get two people who are like God this is garbage what were you thinking this needs to be
fixed this needs to be fixed you know that needs to be changed this color selection horrible right then now they're pointing a different way and here's the really funny special thing that makes us a human is you can have a hundred people tell you this was amazing and if you get even three
people telling you this is garbage it's like all the 100 people did not exist and it's because you have not learned to be confident in yourself you have not learned to meet your own needs so you constantly are looking to others to meet those needs you're looking for that validation I'm going to
say this and it's probably dangerous for me to say but I'm going put that into the Universe I I do get a lot of feedback from the posts and the videos that I share clearly not all of it's good I generally pay a little bit more attention to the negative stuff but not
for the reasons in which you think so people who say oh inspirational post I love the way you think it's like I don't know what else to do with that there's nothing left to learn so when somebody's like but Chris you didn't take into consideration neural Divergent people I have autism blah blah
blah and it's like I'm not trying to R your parade but it misses these points I look at those as fantastic learning opportunities I'm not feeling less than myself but I'm looking for like oh there's an opportunity to improve I could do this I can consider this next time or somebody's like oh
you're just blabbering on for the first five minutes there was no value there another person would be destroyed by that I'm like I guess we could get get to the point quicker maybe there was a little bit too much setup and the internet wants it a little faster maybe and if I see
that happening often enough that I'm like oh clearly the the that vocal minority um represented by more than just one angry person it's like there's something there I think they just want me to get right to it or maybe in this thing I'm using too much bombastic energy and it's just throwing off
my introverted friends out there and so yeah I got to be sensitive to I'm going to tune in but it's not a reflection of my self-worth or my self-esteem it's just hey there's more data some people don't like lemon um cream sickles and I'm like okay we should probably make fewer of them
and more of the vanilla ones or whatever or the mint chocolate chip ones because it seems like a lot of people like that because I'm in the business of making things that people want to consume and so I just throw it out there that the the constructive feedback and sometimes it doesn't come
packaged really nicely I'll say it that way I actually do spend more time either responding thinking about processing or asking clarifying questions and people think I'm trolling them I'm not trolling you I'm just trying to find more information from you because I think there might be something in there if there isn't there
isn't it's fine what are your thoughts on that juel I think it's mostly that data perspective that you're talking about it's okay there are two things one the data right when I said or you said you're looking at data and it's just all data you have managed to separate the facts of what's
actually happening and then to try and take the useful pieces without making it mean something about you this is where most of us don't even realize we're doing that right we're we're equating what we produced or created with our selfworth you don't do that you're like this is just something you know I
worked on data yes so remember I said if you've got 100 people telling you something is awesome you've got like three people telling you it sucked you're not looking at the data you're only like looking at the bad data and the second part of what you were just describing um people think you're
trolling them when you're just asking questions it can sound like a dumb question which is why they think you're trolling them and sometimes I get that reaction too when I ask someone like you know what was it about that that made you so upset right and they look at me like I'm crazy
or they start to get angry at me I know you've had that experience too but it's like really what was it about that and when they can come out of that like the grip of emotions and actually look at that like what was it about that was it the look was it because
they thought you know they were being mocked or was it just how they felt and actually had nothing to do with what the other person did and if we can start to get at the actual data I would say you know you will take a huge leap towards you feeling healthier about yourself
you feeling better all around because now it's not all about you like it never was about you and I think that's the thing that we fail to understand as people something I learned from my business coach Kier McLaren he told me this because we had a couple like Rockstar creatives in our company
and for some reason I couldn't figure out why they created so much drama and I'm an anti-d drama kind of guy I just want to go to work uh be inspired by the people that work and to try to do our best every day and knowing that some days are tough some days
are good and and we're okay with everything in between and what he told me was people who grow up in families that are toxic that have a lot of drama they feel uncomfortable around environments that aren't like that so what they do is they recreate those same situations the drama the toxicity so
that they can feel at ease because it's something very very familiar with them and there's very real tangible things it's not some like imagined thing that that I would have so I start to understand that so they create that kind of energy so I kind of think about that a little bit so
when somebody is in your comments responding to your Tik Tok video with so much VRI all it's like I think they grew up in a place where that's what was normal like some cultures like to argue and yell each other and that's the term of endearment I don't understand that myself but okay
and so when you do not respond in the way that they're used to it's very disregulated for them they get even more upset because they're expecting you to yell back so that they can then go back and forth with a banter with you but when you say um help me understand what you
mean by this can you expand on this what part of this are you referring to or do you do you think the opposite is better because I'm just trying to get your perspective here and then they just lose it they go nuclear war on you instantly or more often than not at least
with me they don't respond at all they just shut down because they don't know how to respond and so I don't mean to shut them down I'm like what do you really mean tell me is there more to this because I'm just trying to get more data you said you don't like it
but is it the color is it the tone what is it about it that you don't like because I'd like to improve but for them it's a foreign language and they don't know how to process do you think it's something like that juel oh absolutely if you have grown up in a place
and I'm going to make this like a super ridiculous example okay actually not a super ridiculous example but you know how I visited London recently and for the first time in my life I saw a Black Swan now imagine if you've only ever seen white swans which I think is true for a
lot of people actually and then you see a Black Swan and you're like that's not a swan there is no such thing as a Black Swan right it's simply what you have seen if this is all you've ever experienced then yeah that's how you're going to react and the unfortunate like consequence of
that is if you don't recognize that this is simply because of how you grow up this is your set of expectations that have been created from the environments you've been exposed to all your life then you might not know what you're doing right you might not realize you're starting to recreate the same
sorts of chaotic circumstances or whatever it is and then you're going to start mapping some sort of intent to the other person's Behavior right so if you're used to a family that always screams and yells at each other and then you come across somebody you start dating someone who didn't grow up like
that and you start scream screaming at them and they instead say I need to cool down and I'm going to you know take some time to myself what ends up happening a lot of times there is the P the first person thinks that other person does not care right they feel ignored they
feel dismissed missed and they feel like that other person doesn't love them because that other person isn't responding the way they expect them to well I know I can talk to you about lots of things and I I think everybody who's been on this journey with with me on this conversation it's like
it's kind of like a it's like a warm blanket on a cold day talking to you it feels very comforting um and I know you you've got some exciting things coming up this affirmation deck that I got a opportunity to take a look at what is this all about how do this come
to be and and tell us if we want to get our hands on this what would you need to do oh my gosh warm blanket okay I'm gonna say remember I told you your voice is like a buttery Quant I bet a lot of your listeners would agree here anyway but yes I
do have these new affirmation cards that I've been working on since late last year been lucky to work on this with penguin random house and you know one of their imprints like ice it's called self-love affirmations and Reflections and through some of the stories I know you and I have been talking through
like some Sometimes some of us grew up with parents that just weren't super supportive because they didn't know how to be if you feel like you actually don't know how to love yourself which is how I felt and I think that's what makes you so good at what you do is because you
you do know how to love yourself Chris and that's what really makes you stand out but if some of you are like how I was you want some help here this is you might find this useful these affirmations and so what makes these cards a little bit different is you don't get just
an affirmation but on the back side of each card is something to think through so that's the reflection piece so for example I one of the affirmations is When Love Comes my way I embrace it and so then the reflection piece is some of what we've been talking about with the compliments and
the gifts right so many of us are really good at doing for others giving for others you know spending our time for others but when it comes time for us to accept the same from others we have an incredibly hard time receiving it's like why is that so I think these cards can
help you start to really understand yourself and maybe treat yourself with a little bit more love and compassion do you happen to have a early release prototype in your vicinity I do can you hold it up to the camera and show it to us cuz I love cards by the way everybody and
some of us get a little scared about the commitment oo nice some of us get scared about commitment of like reading a book and so I always love it when authors are able to turn what they know into something tangible something small something bite-size so juel is holding up this beautiful box it's
a black box with some kind of floral print design but kind of very neutral in terms of its gender I love it so far it it's it's much bigger than you would think it's not playing card size it's probably four times as big so can you pull hold one up show us here's
one of the cards okay I'll show you next my face it's basically like the size of a person's face or at Le ju's face okay and so are they colorcoded are they different designs to represent the different concepts are they all the same they are color coded so we've got what I call
sort of the happy cards okay the ones that represent more Joy we've got healing cards we've got sort of maybe quieter reflection cards and then we've got really like Power Cards those are the four themes that we've got going on so there's four different colors and let's let's hold two of them up
that are different colors and let's see if for the video part of this we can we can show people I'll describe it for our friends on who are listening to this on on the podcast okay so jeweles holding up two cards one is orange one is like um a golden Rod maybe like
one's a deeper red orange and then the other one's kind of yellow orange okay so one says I stand up for myself let's look at that one is this a power card yes okay how did I know I stand up for myself okay uh and and then what does it say on the
max can you flip it over and then read read to us okay it's about um okay cool it's about like uh the point size in which you would types set when you're junior high trying to get away with murder it's like 72 Point type with like double spacing to fill out your book
report of course you'd get busted for this if you're in school but we're not in school so I just let you know how much copy is there okay can you read that card so I stand up for myself so I'm like okay that's an affirmation I stand up for myself yeah now what
does it say on the backside it says finding the confidence to use our voice is one of the most satisfying acts of authenticity although it may feel intimidating expressing genuine thoughts and feelings is important for self-respect consider one area where you've kept silent what message would you like to communicate around this experience
practice standing up for yourself in a way that feels comfortable and supportive this might include speaking in front of a mirror rehearsing with a friend or writing in a journal I like that very precise and it get allows me to go a little bit deeper because I know some of you are listening
to this maybe and like affirmations deck I'm going to roll my eyes here I'm like going to read a bunch of Hallmark cards right but on the back side there's something for you to go deeper and something for you to try out so I really like that how many cards are in the
in the deck so to speak there are 52 cards and I've designed this to be an experience where you would look at each card and really think about it one per week obviously you can do whatever you like with these and some of the cards will actually prompt you to think about it
for the day or the week or even the month so for example the When Love Comes my way I embrace it that's one of the ones where I want people to actually think about it and treat it like a theme for the entire month I like that um and how much do they
cost and where can I get them so I believe in the US they are priced at $16.99 you can find them on Amazon or you can find them on penguin's webbsite but you know obviously probably easier for people on Amazon they're on pre-order status right now and they officially go on sale October
31st so if you pre-order now you'll actually lock in the price if there's if for any reason they go on sale you'll actually be guaranteed the lowest price possible so you have nothing to lose if you pre-order and did you mention this other retail store where you can get them at come on
Jo this is Chris being amazing so Urban Outfitters has agreed to pick them up and stock them in their stores nationwide so I don't know if they're going to be available in other countries the affirmation deck will be available in Europe on Amazon but I don't know about Urban Outfitters so Urban Outfitters
in the US for sure will stock these cards so you may see them there local to you I think that's kind of a BFD a big freaking deal I mean First Time author publisher of stuffff and then here you are leaning into your zone of genius and it seems like things are lining
up for you really fast like not in a million years where I think oh I'm going to make something that's going to be at Urban outfit or is a place where I would visit quite frequently in my youth so it's so cool and and it's it's just I think the universe saying to
you keep going juel keep going that's how I'm going to take it for sure and thank you thank you so much um big freaking deal you're right I think I'm a little afraid to say it's a big freaking deal but it is it is let it out I mean they're not going to
cancel the order it's going to happen there's not going to be a shipping disaster where they like fall off the truck and people can't get them so we're going to encourage everybody I don't know when this episode's going to drop but if you've enjoyed this conversation at 16.95 or 17 bucks is super
like a bargain I buy books way more than this and this is like it's a substantive thing that you can have from a person that's got a lot of substance to herself you can go pre-ordered on Amazon do that it'll help her and when you get it leave a review and if you're
so inclined and you want to go check these out in person hold them in your hands wherever they're available Urban Outfitters and probably other retail locations to be announced uh juel it's been a real pleasure talking to you today uh if people want to find out more about you and get into what
it is that you do maybe they need a life coach maybe they want to check out your Grammy grams or your your Tik toks where do they go my handle is at it's juel Kim so its juel Kim on both Instagram and Tik Tok if you want to look me up on my
website Seattle life coach.org thank you so much Chris you're welcome I just want to spell Jewel for the people who don't know how to spell it's j l e it's not j w l or something it's jle e juel Kim if you can't spell Kim we're in deep trouble here you're probably not
our audience anyways thank you very much everybody for listening and thanks for having um and thank you juel for sharing your Journey for being so transparent and and I I wish you continued success I'm here for all of it thank you for being my friend Chris my [Music] pleasure
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