Write Better Copy For Conversions— Masterclass w/ Neville Medhora

whenever I'm trying to copyright I'm not trying to type the best words or or make the funniest joke or anything like that what I'm trying to do is communicate a message from my brain to your brain when people say copywriting I think they often think of like a person at a typewriter or something like that and it's only focused on words I've never thought of copywriting like that let's take a step back of what copywriting is whenever I'm trying to copyright I'm going to use the best medium with the best tools I have at the time so if we lived in the year 1700 for me to send a message to Chris I write on a piece of paper and a guy and a horse like brings it over you know and like crosses the country and sends it to you and that's very inefficient but that's all we had back then so writing letters and writing words was the skill of the day fast forward to now I mean we've got phones we've got videos we've got audio we've got all sorts of different things now uh we're on the precipice of like VR experiences these are all different ways to instill information in people's heads and so to think that only text is like the ultimate thing is insane to me so yes text is important yes text is a lot of the foundation but I also think making good images is very important like you do making videos is important and then the compression of information happens over time right it used to be to learn something you watch a two-hour documentary then we got YouTube videos that were five minutes long and now you're kind of at the Forefront stuff like Instagram where in 20 seconds you teach me something that used to be you read a whole book to learn about a concept about sales that you're teaching and now you're doing it in 20 seconds where compressing information as humans even more and more and so I want to know what's the best way to communicate information is it words is it images the videos all the above and I'll do that that's what I think copywriting is do you draw a distinction between what you do and how you help companies and say people in advertising or copywriters and working on big campaigns this whole in the semantics of like a creative versus like who can make the funniest commercial for a company for like the Super Bowl versus a copywriter what I'm usually doing is the more boring stuff and and I don't think it's boring but it's like okay you have a piece of software that sells uh an SEO software research software and you have a page and a thousand people come to it I look at the page with fresh eyes and I say you know what that headline doesn't really make any sense what if we change it to that and then I say you know this image doesn't convey any information what if we make it a gif showing someone typing in how to write on your computer and it shows the results and it said it highlights write this article and you're like oh I I understand what your software does now I go through and just try to optimize it like that that's it it's not even that hard I bet a normal person if you show them a web page and say how could I make this better A lot of people could probably do what I do this is good because my background is I studied graphic design and then my first job out of school was to work at an ad agency and so when I think of copywriting I think of the arts and craft of what they do there's a ton of copywriters there are fewer advertising copywriters because it's a whole different art form it's them spending a lot of time to craft a few words for a very few number of clients what you're talking about is I get results from my clients bottom line through words and images and layout and things like that right so I'm assuming you worked in like a big agency it was a medium-sized agency medium-sized agent put yourself in like a really really big advertising agency let's say you're in New York working a big advertising agency Chicago somewhere like that and think about what the actual incentive is for the person making that ad what they're trying to do is win like a little award oftentimes so David Ogilvy talks about this a lot this is where I kind of learned it from and then I experienced it on my own I didn't think it was real and then I worked for some midsize to large companies I realized it was real look where the incentives lay for me my incentive lays in I improve this person's ad campaign by x amount and they're like wow this guy made us a lot of money we paid him ten thousand dollars but he made us a hundred thousand 10x or Roi right that's that's my incentive if you are employee number 1200 at a company of 5 000 perhaps you have a manager above you and they have a manager and they have a manager so your incentive is every Friday when you go in for that week report is to have a chart that goes up and to the right that shows I did good work or I want an award for this ad not that it made the client sales so oftentimes there's this disconnect with those types of things and so whenever we're talking about direct response copywriting it means you come in and have to make more money for that company that's where my incentive lay whereas sometimes for some of those big ad companies like a Ford commercial they're just like we want to get a Best cinematography award and take the the most awesome drone shots of these horses running with the Ford F-150 that's kind of their incentive not that that commercial is actually generating any sales so that's the difference between direct response copywriting and kind of creative advertising generally so there's some clarity here for audiences listening because my friends mostly are in the advertising space they often say advertising doesn't reflect culture it shapes culture so they're thinking on a whole different space it's not necessarily tied to results and metrics and and things that you can measure so getting back to you and how you work and trying to help people to understand this do you set up a baseline of like here's how how it's performing today these are the results you'd like to get and then I'm going to work towards getting those results or is it a different process yeah generally when I look at someone's site for the first time or whatever it is maybe a direct mail campaign you say okay what's it doing now are they coming to me because they're just trying to optimize it a little bit more are they coming to me because it's not working and those are two very different things so as you know sometimes people will come to me with just a bad product and they'll say how come my life coach page is not doing bad and I'm like well you're not a very inspirational character to start with right like would you like that by the way oh yeah all the time I feel like it's my obligation if they pay me to tell them the absolute raw truth whether it hurts or not and I have said this to people I'm like you do not walk the walk the reason Tony Robbins is popular is because people want to be like him he's rich and tall and awesome or whatever you know they think of it you're not and this is probably why a lot of people don't want to be coached by you because they don't really want to be like you at all and so sometimes I identify a problem that's not so much the copy they may have a beautiful web page and they may have a product that promises all these things but it's kind of the product behind it person is not good whereas if someone comes to me saying we already have a great business and it brings in 100 million dollars a year could you maybe help us bring in 110 million dollars a year why look at it and I try to find obvious flaws and I think the trick is and you probably see this all the time too when you're looking at advertising is to come in with fresh eyes people inside the company have seen their landing page their Graphics their logo they've talked about it every single day for the past two years they can't possibly know how someone like me or you seeing it for the first time sees it it's like you know if you've heard a song a trillion times never hits the same as the first time and so there's something about familiarity that ruins your ability to give critique and so I come in and look at a page for the first time and I can instantly say I don't know what this section says or what is this or I think this means that you only serve big companies not small companies and they go oh interesting and we start changing up things little bits at a time to see if it if it makes an improvement I try to come in with fresh eyes every time and look at people's stuff like that and I try to take on clients that are just trying to improve a little bit not that are trying to improve a failing product is oftentimes behind a failing product there's there's some other problem rather than just the copy when are you having that kind of conversation with them to let them know that they suck their product socks is this in the first meeting in our course like instead of just like talking about it we actually do these office hours all the time and I'm not trying to promote the product just telling you but we do it every Thursday so even yesterday there was a guy who's trying to be like kind of a life coach it doesn't have like a very impressive background you know sorry to say it just wasn't working his offers were good his page was good everything looked cool he had cool photos it was just like it wasn't working over time perhaps this is a deeper problem than just the copy what it turns out he was good at he was posting on LinkedIn all the time and it turns out people were like whoa how are you growing on LinkedIn so much and so I was like wait everyone's asking you about this LinkedIn thing this is possibly something you could probably sell for more money than your life coaching services and so we kind of identified where he's actually doing a good job rather than a bad job so the life coaching stuff coming to me you know week after week trying to make this work it was like it's not working that well perhaps this is just not the right Avenue but he was blindsided that he was growing and you LinkedIn so fast and everyone's asking him how you're going on LinkedIn can you help them with that instead rather than life coaching and so a lot of times I'll try to spot where people are doing a good job rather than a bad job in fact I've actually turned people away from copywriting you know you look on YouTube people are like uh make 10 million dollars a day with copywriting it's so easy I would be a little bit of a lie right and they come to me saying I'm a computer programmer and I want to start uh writing copy and they show me their copy and it's it's not good it's just not good they don't enjoy writing they think it's hard it's not fun it's not something they want to do and I'm like wait wait you're a programmer like yeah like can you make more money doing programming Consulting rather than you know copywriting so oftentimes I'll spot things that they're good at and tell them have you tried exploring that people have told me that in the past I'm sure people have told you no you're actually better at that than this and so that's part of my job to tell people right away and I have I have no qualms about telling them especially if they're paying me I feel that's why it's my obligation they know what they're getting I guess when they sign up you come from an immigrant family and like you know people people say stuff how it is a little bit more different culture years speak more directly for sure oh yeah okay how long does it take for you to figure out this is probably not your jam and maybe it's more this for someone else you can usually see if they're trying a project that's been floundering for a very long time and especially if they come to me over and over and I can see that like they're trying things it's not working sometimes I'm like are we missing the picture here like some people think it's just because of their sales page and they never really look back and say maybe it's me maybe this is just not the right path another Telltale sign and man I've been guilty of this so many times you think no one's doing this so I've got a lock on the market that often means there is no Market everyone has an SEO agency and you're like oh there's just so many of them it's like well maybe because every company wants that there's a big pie to go around over there whereas people are like there's no SEO companies just for people who use MacBook airs and use white headphones it's like maybe because there's no demand so that's a Telltale sign however the people you know that have a good business on their hands they come to you and they're like hey what's my landing page like and you're like wow this is a horrible Landing page this is terrible it's awful how much revenue are you doing they're like oh we sold 300 000 last month and you're like with this crappy landing page you did that much money that's when I get excited that's when I start going okay even they're doing they're doing a bad job and in spite of that they're doing well that means they've really hit on the main thing they got something going and we can optimize the heck out of that so those are the types of people I look for it's pretty simple to spot when something's definitely not working the telltale signs are there just no sales they're really banging their head against a wall so you you generally spot it yeah so the the lesson there is that you can use marketing to make good products and good Services perform even better but you're really not that interested in marketing poor products and poor Services right exactly I've actually stayed away like I had a Consulting page for a long time and I just stayed away from doing things like pills you know a lot of people market like supplements and stuff to be frank like a less than ethical way or some vague study that says like this helps your liver and 12 people saw a two percent Improvement it's like I always listen to Warren Buffett quote where he says like assume everything that that you do is going to be on the front page of the news would you feel good about it and I like what I feel good about showing my mom that and so I stay away from those kinds of things it's just ethically I can't do it it just makes me feel gross it's hard to Market those things without just kind of like flat out lying so I like marketing products that are really good for example software either works or it doesn't you can't really lie software clients are my favorite because oftentimes you could just show a gif rather than explaining and it either does the job that it's supposed to or it doesn't it's just that simple sometimes so I really like products like that that are very transparent you pay this much a month and you get this service and you can even try it out for free those are my favorite I've been on your site no lie you are a fan of the GIF there's gifts everywhere there's interesting stick figures doing all kinds of stuff everywhere and so you do actually like that so okay you might be referring to my home page which has a very old bad GIF it's not even a good gift it's all grainy and the reason I keep that up there is because it converts between 10 to 12 percent and every single thing we've tried ever doesn't even do half that I think it's kind of interesting because you're actually wearing a shirt that says you love copy yeah and I think what you're describing to me isn't copywriting it's marketing it's it's sales it's conversion it's something else but you like the the term copywriter copywriting this has been a long-standing thing that people bring up they're like well what you do is not actually copy sometimes I come into consult with companies or people sign up first we're not just typing words in fact we're just talking about ideas of how to structure their pricing and things like that there actually was no copywriting involved but here's the thing if I just said I do General marketing like what does that mean I say I'm a dance instructor that's vague but if I say I'm a ballerina you know exactly what I'm talking about right away and so a lot of times people come in for the copy stuff but leave with all the general marketing so I always found it better to specialize rather than just say vague marketing how do you describe what you do they say I tell them I'm an educator and content creator and I help creative people who have business problems but if you were said you were a graphic designer or that you help people through graphic design it makes it a little bit more uh Punchy and I've always found whenever I've tried to move away from the word copy because I've had this thought before and to say I just help people with marketing it's so vague it's difficult to have those conversations because they're like well what do you what do you do wherever it's like copywriting they're like oh he'll improve an email and then you could expand on that once they understand the general concept right I didn't actually just go into copyrighting saying that like I'm going to start out as a copywriter I didn't like Niche down right away it's actually the universe kind of told me right people told me the market told me that like everyone wants to hire you for this thing people pay the most money for this thing people can know you for this thing people want to hear your opinion on this thing whereas if I just talk about General marketing it seems to not get as much interest so it's almost like the world told me to do this rather than I picked it okay you talked about something about making small changes to a landing page or a sales page until you can optimize it for the results that you want you're getting into I think split testing is that what you're doing um not really one of the things about split testing we do do split testing to a degree but these numbers can often Lead You astray split testing for your audience is like you know you test one headline that says Christo is awesome versus Cristo can help you with your marketing if you're a big company and you know how many people click that sign up button right below it and so I'm assuming that second headline where it's a little bit more specific would work better so that's the kind of stuff we're doing we're just trying to improve each headline so there's no confusion a lot of times we'll come to these SAS products and they'll say this product is a fusion between technology of AI and and human design and you're like what does that mean and instead it says this is an AI copywriter that will write blog posts for you sometimes just being more obvious and sometimes people will in a big company especially if there's a big board room full of people writing copy together it ends up being this jargon that that makes no sense and so people will come to us asking for that kind of thing and we can immediately tell them if they're doing a good job or not and we can often just replace their headlines and start going through and just making things clearer we don't always have to split test everything because think about it you come to a software companies page the headlines a little bit different it's not going to change the page 80 necessarily but each little incremental Improvement will make it better and better better and better so we used to do a lot of split testing but you have to have very heavy traffic for split testing and also just remember split testing was very popular when a few years like 20 years ago 10 years ago and the reason is you basically got an eyeball on a page and that's it like you could communicate with your customer now you know this very well how do people follow you they follow you on Twitter they follow you on Instagram they follow you on your blog they follow on YouTube they maybe see you an ad they maybe hear about you from someone else's Twitter it's almost impossible to track all that stuff now there's some basic ways but it's almost impossible so we can hit people up in so many different ways that to say just the home page landing page is making that decision for them no that's false if a good friend of mine recommends the software no matter how bad this all the page is I'm just gonna buy it and so those things matter more and more in today's world so we want to optimize your page the best we can but to think that just your sales page is the thing making the difference I don't think that's the case anymore at all you have so many different ways hit up your customers and educate them and they hear about you from other places that that all that stuff is very important also and having a relatively optimized landing page is important so we don't do a lot of split tests because it ends up spending a lot of time like changing colors of buttons and split testing headlines and things like that in fact I would implore you if you have a business and and you don't believe me on this try something interesting the best way to split test stuff is through email if you have an email list so if you send out an email with one subject line that says Neville midora podcast versus one that says Christo podcast and see which one does better that might have some influence right but then people really really stress like should we say this is a podcast by Christo versus Christo has a podcast it's just split like splitting hairs over here if you do what I call an AAA Test instead of an A B test test the exact same email subject line on your email list you'll get different results try it see what happens an AAA Test you're saying what's the difference then nothing split test the subject line hey here's my latest podcast versus B subject line hey here's my latest podcast the same subject line will often get different results just because the natural variations in like you know audiences and things I see yeah this is to disprove the fact that split testing even works it's like you're doing a double Placebo so if we use my name in the your email subject line versus yours your audience knows yours better it probably worked better so it splits us would work there I'm not saying it doesn't work but a lot of people split hairs so much I'm just saying if you AAA tests you'll be like wow that didn't really make a difference you know what the best uh indicator of open rate is the sender field so imagine that my mom sends me an email she's not really good at subject lines I'm still gonna open it right it doesn't matter what the subject line is I want to hear from her so that's the most important thing you send a reputation over time in my opinion is the most important thing subject lines can vary from here to there and overall you'll end up every single company that I see I get to see all their their analytics it's almost they always get almost the same open rate so the hustle gets almost the same open rate every time the appsumo gets the same open rate my emails get the same open rate every single time between like 28 and and 38 it's always in that variation no matter what the subject so when you're writing the copy and your team is working on this stuff you just go by this is what we know it needs to be and how are you making those decisions I think it's experience and keeping up with the current trends you could see certain things I mean if you remember like in 2012 time frame 2013 there was all these links with like upworthy.com that were like this guy did 12 things you won't believe what happens next or an alligator went into this guy's yard look what happens and it's some like underwhelming video at the time those types of things were can I mean if you're stuck in that era you'd be writing these spam articles that that social media kind of bans now like actually you don't see those headlines and because they are actively demoted on social media and so you have to keep up with Trends and so what I always do I have a whole separate email account and we have like a tool that collects all the email marketing stuff and we try to see which companies are growing what are they doing what are they sending out what kind of format are they using what kind of content are they sending out so try to keep up with current trends and then also we can get to see behind the scenes of so many people's businesses in our community area that we can kind of see what's working so for example it used to be you write these incredibly long the longer the better five ten thousand word articles what you're actually seeing is Google is like you know what people don't want 10 000 words they just want you to summarize the thing and so what you're seeing is a lot of the first page results on Google are actually pretty like short to medium articles they're not that long and so if I was stuck in you know a couple years ago I'd say you should write this super long article with everything under the sun about this topic now I'd say actually you should write just you know a summary of it we keep up with trends like that to see what's working what's not working what the current trends are that's how we kind of keep a pulse on what's working and also you know what sometimes we're wrong but usually I can say I've seen a trend that no one doing this thing that you're doing is doing well anymore so I can say that I'm confident for example B2B emails people used to write these really long ones and I can almost assuredly tell you that the longer it is the worse it's going to do because that's what I see every single time almost without exception so I can kind of made I'm not saying it's a general rule but at the time it was in a really long email pitch as a cold email it's not going to do as well as if you sent a super short maybe one to two sentence one well that kind of parallels something an observation you made earlier where it used to take a lot of information a long time to communicate an idea and whether it's our shrinking attention spans or we're just getting better at communicating because we've had a thousand tries at it versus writing a newspaper article once a month we just have more tries and we have quicker feedback cycles and now we can communicate quicker and it's quite interesting to me because I don't follow any of this stuff and so this will probably be useful for audience listening in that there was a period of time when content marketers would tell you create 10 20 000 word essays and the more the better for for Google but what we're learning is it's now figured out utility to user so if they send you a link that you don't actually get through what's the point and so we have to be better at communicating more efficiently with fewer words and those are the articles that I generally read too so so as a consumer I'm echoing what your observations are so it's not that Google made this change that things should be shorter it's actually why were long-form things more uh popular 20 years ago during the beginning of the internet and the reason was it was hard to log onto the internet things were super slow right now we could of course click a million tabs and it's fine it just happened so fast imagine it was a hundred times slower because that's what the world was like it was so slow and difficult to load up a web page to start your computer to log on it was hard to find internet your browsers were slow it didn't have as much capability you could barely even watch videos a couple years ago and so at that time it was very rare to be able to pull up a web page in a web surfing session you would go through maybe 5 to 15 web pages now we're probably going like a bazillion like your computer is hitting up apis of thousands of companies at the same time so it used to be much harder so whenever you pulled up a piece of information I wanted it all in one place but now if I want to look up how to fix my door because it's squeaking I go on Tick Tock and type it in and I get the quick and dirty right because Tick Tock videos are gonna be 20 seconds like here's how to do or get some wd-40. perfect I got the high level overview but then if I really want to get down into it I could go to YouTube because I got some extra time and I really want to know how to do this correctly and then if I want I guess I can read an article about it so I have different modalities that can I can pick and choose I remember a few years ago I was cooking an egg and I was like I don't know how to make a sunny side up egg and so I typed it in YouTube and there's 14 minute videos popping up and I was like the eggs on the thing right I need to learn right now and so I just went to Instagram and typed it in it was like a 10 second video of someone how to cook an egg and then later when I had time I can go watch Gordon Ramsay cook the perfect egg but that takes 25 minutes I think there's different modes nowadays that we can uh view so do you read 10 000 word articles on you know how to cook an egg anymore no but you might watch two YouTube videos or two Tick Tock videos very quickly so there's just different modalities and things change as technology improves I wanted to ask you a question about your entrepreneurial Journey from high school college and up until now has it been smooth selling for you this entire time or have you had some some setbacks and if you did what did you learn fortunately for me it was it was relatively smooth it was never really like that bad like I never thought I was gonna go broke I always thought I had like enough savings there'd be months where I didn't make as much money but I always had like backup savings So I entered as a computer science student because I was interested in computer science but there were 17 000 people going for 5 000 computer science spots this was during the tech bubble so everyone wanted to do computer science and I was not on the right side of that curve so I didn't get into computer science program so I said what else do I do political science going to maybe to law school or something like that sounded interesting and during that I was studying with like a business minor into Political Science I actually was running a business since high school called houseofrave.com I don't even know if it still exists I was running that and it was very unusual for a student to be running a company back then and I was actually making money with all these different side projects that I was running and I joined all these entrepreneurship club and Chris believe it or not back then there was like 200 people in this entrepreneurship Club I was in and maybe two of us had a business that's not a good ratio now if you go to a college almost all of them will have some sort of Hot Side hustle or have sold something on Shopify or something so it's it's really increased but back then it was not super common and while I was running these companies I was starting to learn I was like okay I can see the near future I have a lot of family friends that are older than me that have exited college that have gone on to jobs in Investment Banking and all these different things law et cetera now we talked to them and it didn't seem like a lot of them liked their jobs not all of them but some of them were like yeah being a lawyer is not fun you're pushing papers for like dumb documents all day like it's a little bit soul sucking and I was like wait this is what I kind of want to become this sounds bad I always thought by being an investment banker or something like that sounded really cool it sounded cool and like you make a lot of money and I talked to a lot of friends that were investment bankers and they're like wow this is kind of like indentured servitude they promise you four hundred thousand dollars a year they actually pay you sixty thousand dollars a year with the promise of a gigantic bonus at the end and if you don't do what they want when they want how they want for even one second they will pull that bonus I was like wow that doesn't sound great either and so as I was running these companies I was making a pretty competitive what I could make in the workplace salary as a college student and I was like well if I could keep doing this it seems like the upside is unlimited the downside is I moved back in with my parents at worst and even then it probably won't come to that and so I always thought man I'm young I could just go get a job I'm pretty confident I could get a job somewhere doing something and so I chose that route and I was already making money in college so when I exited I was like well why get a job it didn't really make sense and so I had to kind of explain that to a couple people like my parents but when they saw that income was coming in they were more okay with it and yeah so my college degree didn't necessarily help me although the college experience did you could kind of uh make your own path if you want yeah okay so you're in a very rare space where you're making money you have beginnings of a career you're still in school and is it your parents like pushing you to kind of finish school or because oftentimes when people are in this situation they just drop out and like I'm gonna do my own thing no I don't agree with that sentiment so a lot of people say like oh you little musk is a Dropout Bill Gates is a Dropout Mark Zuckerberg is a Dropout Elon Musk was going to pursue a PhD at like Stanford right Bill Gates was was doing really well these people weren't adults that just dropped out and just thought like let me try something they actually started something and when it got so big they dropped out so little Hometown hero over here is is Michael Dell in Austin Texas he lived in the same dorm that I did not the exact unit but the same dorm and he was selling computers and making so much money that he had to drop out he didn't want to but he had to drop out because it was too much going on that's the kind of Dropout that you want to be if you're going to drop out you don't just want to drop out and say I'm going to find something I always say like if you can't do it on the side you probably can't do it full time so people think like oh only if I had more time I'll be able to do XYZ and I think you've seen that many times that like if you can't do it on the side it's probably not going to work out full time either so I actually think it's kind of dangerous for people to drop out full time have unlimited time on their hands due to nothing motivation and uh just flounder there so if you're going to start a side business start a side business and then if it gets big then you drop out of your job your college whatever you did a very adult and responsible Thing by sending that message out so that young people listening to this aren't going to just immediately drop out and cause all kinds of Heartache for their parents or potential future self there I get that it's like you want to leave for a reason not because you don't know what you're doing because that would seem like a recipe for disaster oh can I tell you a quick story about that where my of course about how my parents kind of accepted it for the first time so obviously making money on the internet was a weird thing back then it's hard to imagine but back then by the way this is like uh 2001 and so 2001 I'm entering College making money on the internet my parents are like by the way it's not just my parents no one knew what the hell I was doing they're just like are you a drug dealer how are you making money like what what is this like they had no idea and so it was a novel thing it seemed like uh being a YouTube influencer 10 years ago as a career it was like right it was nuts you people were like you're gonna make weird videos on the internet and like you know people still had dial up and weird things it was just a different era right so I was on this the precipice of something new doing this so people didn't understand it and I remember my parents were said something they were like if you don't make a certain GPA we're gonna make you pay for your college this semester and I didn't hit that GPA I missed it and I wrote them a check for the whole semester and they were like wait whoa what like they didn't think they didn't think that would happen when they finally realized like oh perhaps this is something real to someone who's just going to leave College I would say if you already have some path to success you've already got some small success you could show your parents like hey look I'm not just like abandoning College because I'm lazy I actually think I genuinely have a ton of upside and I have a couple of months of savings or a couple of years and if something bad goes wrong like I can live for two to three years with no income so I told that to my parents and I said it you know I don't have large expenses right now I'm young I'm living cheap and I can live for about two years before I go broke so I think that quelled their fears and showed that I was motivated rather than I'm just dropping out and I want to be XYZ but have no modicum of success so far and I think there's always times when you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like man I suck at this I'm not doing it as well as my friends like of course you have that this is my personal thing I think it should be between 10 and 30 percent discontented and I actually think the number should be higher if you're younger so if you're 20 and don't have a lot of money and kind of relying on your parents still can't pay for your way in the world you should be relatively discontent I need to work harder like this can't be my life my whole life I need to work harder and then as you grow older and you buy a house you have more stability I think you should have more and more contentness so you actually notice this with humans right young people are always like we gotta break the system change everything and they're rebelling and older people are like you know let's just go with the flow and write this out right that's just a normal ebb and flow of how uh life goes so I think you should always be happy for what you have but partially discontented you should be fully content I think like a little bit of discontent is good yeah you're always trying to improve you're always trying to keep up with the times and so I always think it's been like that where I was doing good and there's times when I was like whoa I'm noticing Revenue slipping you know that's not good like is this the way I'm going down to zero and so then you feel bad about yourself and you think crap I gotta get my stuff in order and I gotta do something better and so you have to harness that energy that's the world telling you like you're not going in a good direction you got to change this up and I had that a couple times in my life like with the house of Rave I was a drop shipper and so back in the day that was like a brand new idea like whoa I sell things online but then someone else fulfills the orders right that was a new idea but then people started catching on right and there was more and more middlemen just like me and then Amazon big bad wolf started coming up and selling stuff way cheaper than I ever could and you know you gotta admit to the world like this company going up faster and faster is going to really hurt me there's more sellers just like me there's more competition our profit margins are going to go down to zero where am I going to be in five years I'm going to be working way harder making the same level of money or even less and you have to like analyze at that point like is this going to to be a viable business anymore like in five years it's going to be really hard to compete like this so I needed to start changing the way I do things or looking for something else and so there are points in in time like that I've had a couple like that but I've never been in like Dire Straits or anything fortunately I've always had like enough savings and things I think there's a Jim Rohn quote on this where he says something like be happy with what you have while you work for all that you want and so I think that's your formula like we don't want to be displeased because otherwise we're going to enter into a state of depression and never content with every anything that we have but I'd be happy with what you have and then work for all the little bits and pieces that you want to have I also think if you're working on something fun it makes it interesting sometimes I tell people I'm like I didn't do anything today but then in reality I did like I did this interview I did all this work I wrote something and I'm like I don't think it's hard because it's something I naturally like to do kind of like what you do I kind of see it in your content you kind of enjoy what you do it sounds like you think you're just messing around all day but people are like wow that's a lot of work and you're like I didn't really feel like work I was just throw you know talking to a camera for a little while like that's probably if probably fun for you you know and so I think that's like the greatest blessing in life to be able to have something that you like doing so what I found early on is I liked writing online even when it was hard to do and no one made money doing it I thought I would just do this forever for free and it would be cool and then later on it turns out you can't make money at it so I was like oh even bonus like this is what I get to do so you know there's a lot of time just writing a blog post and people like what you do today now then just wrote a blog post they're like that's work I'm like doesn't feel like it though let's talk a little bit about the future five years from now with the way that Ai and machine learning is doing its thing I understand there's some services that there's AI based copywriting or are you concerned about that do you see that potential concerned I love them I'm invested in them yeah and invested one called copy Ai and there's another competitor run uh by one of our friends here in Austin called uh Jarvis although I think they rebranded as something else there's a lot of these great ones and then Dali 2 just came out from open AI which is like an image generator so Graphics designers you know they they get a little bit scared about this because you just describe something and it creates it and then you can iterate from there what this is is like like I've talked about the person that's living in the year 1700 if they're transported to now all they have is the technology of writing so they're behind the tines because people like you and me can make images and videos and transmitter ideas and different modalities so similarly it's going to change it's going to get better the reason I make money right now is because it's hard for people to sit down and write good copy that's succinct but computers will replicate that they're getting better and better and better at doing that so what that means is the average business owner instead of having to pay Neville a bunch of money will say you know what let me just push this button and it'll just kind of like give me a bunch of ideas and I select which ones I like that's kind of going to be a new way of writing so a lot of copywriters is a big debate in the copywriting community it's like oh these computers are going to take our jobs it's like yeah if you're a sucky copywriter that just sits there and doesn't adapt with the times it will take your job and it well should because it's doing a better job than you can and it does it a million times faster however someone like me who's like whoa I gotta harness this what that tells me is I can actually do my job instead of for 10 000 people I can do it for a million people with the help of these Machine Tools right right similar to people in journalism in the 70s or 80s that were like oh stuff on the internet that's insane like newspapers are always going to be king and then the people that were like well newspapers are good right now but this I mean you could distribute an article to everyone on Earth with digital like maybe we should at least try that those people flourished and the other ones floundered so the people that embrace the technology do well the people that are scared of it go down so I think if you actually use these AI copywriter things you understand their limitations what they can do what they're good for so for example little AdSense ads where it's like two headlines they're fantastic for that because it could generate so many and you could be like oh my God I never would have thought of that let me click that one writing long-form blog posts they still are horrible they're not good they can make kind of spammy blog posts for sure but they can't write really good ones I know where this limit is of technology and what I should spend my human time on and then when the image Generation stuff comes out so it already has like with dolly two from open AI I can start saying I love using images I love using gifs What If instead of drawing out each GIF and it takes a long time to edit it and photo Photoshop frame by frame what if I use Dolly to make that image that saves me so much more time and I can come up with fun and interesting creative ideas and output articles and videos and stuff much faster than I could before so I could output way more using these tools rather than being afraid and thinking like oh it's going to take my job whatever you're doing right now in 20 years it is probably not going to exist especially if you're in the digital world the way that you're making videos right now with Instagram and stuff is going to seem like Grandpa's old stuff in 20 years this is going to be completely outdated and that's just something you have to accept I plan on hopefully adapting with these tools and growing better because of them not saying like oh it's going to take my job I think that's a kind of a loserish way of thinking all right so if you feel threatened by AI you're a loser and well yeah I just think you you're just scared what what if you what if you say this tool is available for me how can I use it to amplify my skills I I better approach yeah right so AI can Empower you to do what you do even better so embrace it it's not gonna go the opposite direction it's only going to be more and more intelligent and and dare I say even more artistic in how it does its job so you have to stay on top of that top of the food chain I'm mindful of time here I know I want to ask you this question because I saw the top of your Twitter feed and also on your blog post stupid email explain that to me the stupid email means swipe thought uplifting picture interesting and drawing I know that off the top of my head because I have to explain it so many times and every Friday I would I would post on social media all these short form things and I thought you know it's kind of a waste that I feel like find all these cool things I'll make images I'll make drawings I'll take time to write a thought which you know as you know takes time and then it just goes nowhere and so what I did was I started compiling all those things I was sharing on social media into a newsletter turns out this is my most widely well received newsletter I sent out and we send out quite a bit of email every Friday roughly at 7am I send out a thing called the stupid email it's an acronym I mean swipe.uplifting picture interesting job so it's a swipe so I like all these old ads you can't see it right now but from this angle you can't I have all these old Ogilvy ads they're top performing ads up on my wall I love old ads like that it's like old music there's a lot of crappy ads but we just you know focus on the good ones from back then it's inspiring to look at them I like them a thought is just some interesting thought I have interesting something interesting and then a picture I like picture I share pictures of myself on social media and stuff like that every once in a while much like you do and I'll share a picture something personal right I'm at a conference or something like that so you just shared a bunch of pictures of you in uh I forget which European operation uh yeah and you had you had this awesome Round Table uh speech that you gave like that would be the picture and then a drawing I do a lot of drawings so I'll share a drawing a gif something like that and what I tell people is if you want to create your own newsletter that's like this what you do is you look at like the last 10 20 things you share on social media and you say huh what's that called so maybe it's like business advice and then maybe you share a couple uplifting quotes and then maybe share uh silly things all the time so I would say make the bus email you know the business uplifting silly email something like that it's called a background in where you back into an acronym so that's what I did with the stupid email and it's a horrible name I actually I don't think I'm very good at naming things but I thought you know what it's it's stupid it's funny I like being stupid and funny and I'm just gonna do that so could it have a better name like the Slick email the swipe email I'm sure it could create a better name for it but I just like stupid and it's just funny people will be like yo I love your stupid email they just get a kick out of it and so yeah I think it's a bad name but it's a fun name so the stupid is an acronym for prompts for you to send out a Weekly Newsletter yes it helps a lot because if you had to create five things every single week I mean it's not easy right to come up with five unique things like that in addition to our normal workloads and so I just have a swipe so I know where to find swipes I go to Reddit vintage ads um I have a couple different places that I keep them and on my desktop I take screenshots of stuff and then on my phone especially I browse a lot on social media I take screenshots of stuff at the end of the week or on Thursday I'll go through my phone and my desktop and say okay I like this uh ad on my desktop right now I have a Citroen ad old Citron ad from the 70s that I'm going to post uh next week and then I have a bunch of uh social media quotes and stuff that I found that I thought were interesting and on Thursday I go that's interesting that's not interesting and I kind of create it from there but having kind of a format to send out makes it so much easier whereas if I had to create a completely new newsletter every Friday oh my that'd be a lot of that'd be a lot of work is there a narrative thread that's going through these different letters like swipe and thought or they related they're totally unrelated this might be a loose thought but I remember hearing like why Joe Rogan was so popular back in the day he was like this weird amalgamation of a guy that liked you know psychedelics and then monkeys and MMA and then he was a TV guy it was just a real really weird combination of things that was very uniquely him and I thought you know these are the kinds of things I post I post a lot of old swipes I like this kind of stuff so I thought this is kind of uniquely me if it's uniquely me then I just naturally do this so I thought I would just send it out and see what happens and it turns out people like that I wasn't sure that people would like that format but I knew that whenever I share individual things like that a swipe something a thought something interesting a picture of me people like that stuff so I thought what if I smash it all together that'd be a nice format and so a lot of people have taken note from that I made a post called how to make a newsletter because I was part of you know the hustle and appsumo and all these companies that have 2 million plus email newsletters so I know a little something about it and having a format to follow each time is very important and you could also find a format that's uniquely you you don't have to copy mine yours could be completely different so for yours it would be like a graphic or a business thought or a an Instagram Carousel each time you know something like that if I wrote a newsletter every week but yes if you did I mean I think you put out enough information on social media that you could totally compile that into a newsletter you're doing all these little small things here and there why not put that into a big newsletter that people don't follow you all the time or a little overwhelmed with their own social media don't see so you can just follow my Twitter and see all the same information the stupid email not everyone follows everyone on Twitter all the time right so they get this Weekly Newsletter and they're like oh I missed all this this is great yeah what I find interesting about your process is that it's so personal and it's quite eclectic that you get a sense of like I'm I'm crawling into your mind a little bit in this email and like if you like that and you enjoy that of course you're gonna look forward to these emails every single week and it is so uniquely you and I think in this kind of cookie cutter marketing and newsletter that everybody does we can get tired of it pretty quickly so let me tell you a quick antidote about that so the D and stupid means drawing right because I do a lot of drawings I have a whole history of doing drawings I have tons of them in my my media folders so I changed that I was like you know drawings is not as educational I'm going to do do-overs so I change it to do over and what I did was I was going to do over people's Twitter profiles I was gonna do over people's email and we started doing that for a while and people were like they didn't care like I'd post that stuff on Twitter and they were kind of like it's okay so just kind of like redo someone's twitter profile and they were like yeah they get five likes and I was like you know what people just didn't like it I didn't like doing it I found it very difficult actually to find like relevant profiles so I was like you know I'm going back to the drawing that's me that's what I do it's easy for me to create drawings if you tell me to make some stupid little stick figure drawing crank one out in five seconds over here but to do over a Twitter profile it takes a lot of brain power yeah to find someone who's letting me redo their profile I have to tell them to test it to see if it does better honestly the the audience was like yeah we're tired of seeing you redo random people's profiles it just doesn't resonate so I thought you know what screw it I'm gonna go back to whatever's uniquely me and that thankfully did better I've been guilty the same you think this is gonna really resonate it's a lot of work and then it just Falls really flat and you go back to what works totally true I'm sure you get that feedback loop very quick on Instagram too okay I have two questions for you one semi-serious one totally goofy you strike me as a guy who likes to Tinker and to mess around with things to kind of hack your way through stuff and make your own rules as you go I saw this video that you put out on YouTube about like out to get your Tweet to go viral and you broke it down very thoroughly from beginning to end about this one tweet about Elon Musk in a 21 second pause and you got so much engagement and Impressions on this I'm curious if you've applied that to other social platforms where you've kind of hacked your way through it to get explosive growth I'm curious well no here's the thing if someone knew the exact secret to going viral every single time it would just be the top of the world so there's people that are probably far better than I am at it I just said how I did that specific one that when you look back on it like even when I show it to people they're like I could see why this went viral they could totally see it like the way I put the captions the way I put that timer there and here's the other little trick of that one it was a pause where uh Lex Friedman a great podcaster interviewed Elon Musk a great interviewee and he asked him a question about when are we going to get to Mars Elon Musk paused for a full 21 seconds now think about that like if we just went radio silent for 21 seconds on an audio podcast everyone thinks that the the video and the audio froze so people were watching this timer and they're like is my phone broken like what is this I think think it tapped into all these different things that made it go viral and I thought I would just break it down to show what I did and you know what it's funny I copied that exact same process on a couple other things didn't work as well I I think that what goes viral constantly changes right someone says those Upworthy style headlines do really well like oh 12 things you won't believe you got to click the article those do well for a while then people start distrusting them and then they don't do well for a while so there's this constant cycle of what goes viral and what doesn't so I bet the way that you've done I think you put it out posts recently about carousels Carousel about hashtags they used to work really well then they didn't work now they work again it was something like that so things change all the time and so I broke that down I thought it'd be a fun piece of content it was interesting to go viral and see like man what is Elon Musk Twitter feed look like and it felt like every time I clicked my notifications you get like 100 more and you're like oh my God like this is like living in a different world and so I thought it'd be fun to just share some of that stuff but can you constantly hack your way to the top I think there's actually a different way and it's more boring so someone like Mr Beast I think goes viral all the time but he has a whole network of friends and people that he hits up for every video and says hey can you reshare this can you re-share this can you re-share this and he actually manufactures the virality by his Network and then also they spend a lot of time on their content Etc but it's very difficult to consistently do it and even he has flops so I don't know if there's an answer to that how to do it every single time you might actually you seem better at social media than I am so you probably are the person that's not me so this is quite fascinating the stats on your Twitter should have gotten you in most social apps a ton of followers and you said it told you you got like 29 but you calculated maybe 600 or so and it's quite fascinating to me because on most social platforms when you go viral you're a subscriber follower account Twitter is one of these weird black holes where you can see someone have 2 million likes and have a thousand followers because it's not a culture one where we'd like one tweet and we're gonna instantly follow that person well also if you think about it the Tweet was more about Lex Friedman and Elon Musk and not Neville so they're like why am I going to follow Neville now if they kept seeing good interview Clips like that and liked me maybe they would follow but yeah you're right also I did get a lot of subscribers from it it was a little bit indirect so from that tweet alone this is the Twitter stat said I made 29 followers but the engagement was Millions right at 3 million plus at the time maybe more now but what happened was I definitely did get 600 plus followers that day or two so what happens is people would click my profile go to other tweets and then subscribe I'm not exactly privy to that exactly how they calculate that but I'm suspecting it's something where if you don't subscribe directly from that tweet isn't counted do you do uh live audio spaces I've done some clubhouses when that was kind of popular during the pandemic I've never done that as much I'd encourage you to do it because um obviously you have a lot of opinions and ideas about things and if you can do live coaching which you've done with your community what's really interesting about live audio that's unique to the other platforms is there's not a lot of places for you to hide meaning if you're someone who is of substance who can speak about things in a coherent Way in real time when you do these live sessions really you're going to get exposed for being great or terrible but it doesn't really go both ways so pseudo coaches ones who have copy pasted some kind of phone formula who propped themselves up they tend to be exposed really quickly not that that was their intention someone would go up on stage all of a sudden something would break out and there's some controversy that would ensue and quickly the word would spread that you know they really don't know what they're talking about so for me doing an audio only experience just like working with people come up on stage we'd talk I started to grow my following but more importantly people into my community it was the largest growth period I've had I think when we were doing the Pro Group at that time were probably under 300 now we're over 670 people and a good portion of those people came in through the live audio experience and they're still there today I haven't experimented that much with it yeah I enjoy experimenting all the social platforms it's fun I did not really realize that was a thing if you want to because it can be a little intimidating at the beginning Twitter spaces and Linkedin audio events which they're called if you're interested and you have a topic you want to do I will host the room that way it's easy for you you can jump in and you can shine in the way that you can so I'm just putting that out there if you want to do that I'm totally a game for that also I didn't even know till this very second and that LinkedIn audio was a thing it's a relatively hot and contested space with no clear winner yet and so no one's going to concede this just yet and it's a unique experience and I thought a lot of it as being initially because I was close-minded about it that it was like a poorly produced live podcast but it's the ability to have a real conversation with someone in real time and to think on your feet think about like how comedians are on the stage and doing crowd work there's not a lot of places for you to hide you either can think on your feet and tell a good joke or you can't and you're going to be exposed night is like verbal Warfare almost a little bit yeah yeah it doesn't have to be that aggressive but yes yeah that's a bad term for it yeah but you know you you're going to find out if somebody's the real deal or not really quickly so people are interested in copywriting or just hearing about your ideas about marketing or copywriting and conversions they would probably get a lot of value and you'd probably get quite a few people interested in at least signing up for what it is that you do either your newsletter or your course I would love to try it out usually the reason I haven't done audio as much is because whenever I do copywriting consults and even our office hours it's always better to have video in there also so I'm not saying that I haven't done any great podcasts about copywriting but a lot of times I want to show people rather than just tell them so instead of saying Hey Chris your website sucks on video I can just say let me bring it up and let me change this headline right there oh you do it live right there I do it live and I use a little JavaScript trick you could see on my site that I use all the time I can just edit your website not actually your website just on my front-end browser right but I can say what if you put this in there and I literally type it live and people go I get it whereas audio unfortunately I have to say imagine Chris's website it's blue right has a picture of him he's pointing it it's a little bit more difficult to explain sometimes on Twitter as you're doing a Twitter space you can pin links so what people can do is first they'd have to submit whatever it is their sales page for you in advance you and I as the host of the room can pin specific ones that you like and we can also pin a separate tweet with a link to You editing it live so people can listen to it while watching you if you can share a browser link so somewhere and if we can see it that way then you know I don't know how you can do that on a technology level but if you can do that no problem obviously you don't want to be described move if you can imagine 10 pixels to the right and this color green that would be a horrible audio experience yeah but I've done a lot of podcasting including this one where we talk about copywriting and you don't have to actually be redoing copy right on the spot right you could talk about Concepts and different things and stories I think that could work well for you you can say well here's the thing I'm confused by this message what is it you're trying to sell and why are there so many words here in between this and that and I would do it something like this and you would describe it and this is where your audience is going to lean into wow Neville just did that live imagine working with him or enrolling in the course because you get to do that thing that magicians do it's like you just do the trick the not so serious question that I I think it's appropriate for us to end the podcast on is this you're a little bit of a scoundrel crashing parties and you describe the whole process in bloody gory detail I'm going through like oh my God this is like everything in there are you still crashing parties sniffle I can afford to go to parties now so I don't generally crash that's that's a good answer so you're going legitimately now yes it's also I get invited to more cool stuff right when I was like 20 and not getting invited to anything because I was a nobody not saying I'm a somebody now but I have a little bit more clout I wanted to meet like rich people and they're in their natural environment I'll go to Every conference I could and there'd be some that I couldn't afford right two thousand dollars for conference I could do it now but back then it was inconceivable to spend two thousand dollars when I was 20. that was like my maybe part of my net worth like or maybe more at the time there was no way to go but I was like I want to go and so I would find ways to go I remember I would say can I get a press pass and then I remember I had a mentor named Robert and he would go to all these fancy parties that I never heard about them this whole circuit probably would if you live in a reasonably sized city there's probably this whole fundraiser Circuit of rich people that get together it's probably between 200 and 500 people that come to all most of these things and they're getting together all the time every week there's these events going on for fundraisers they only invite rich people because they're the only ones that can you know shell out twenty thousand dollars for for things and these things exist there's a charity Foundation the first one I crash had Elton John as a private concert for 200 people I show up everyone knows each other me this little brown kid who had shitty clothes didn't even own like a real suit I looked more like a waiter than anything actually and I remember thinking like I gotta get into this this seems awesome and I had to learn on the Fly I was pretty nervous to talk to people but to learn on the Fly just under pressure to be like make friends and I would crash these parties and be forced to talk to people my trick was I would go to the bar line and they would always have open bars at these things and there'd be like a little bit of a line I'd be like hey I'm Neville how's it going man these lines are long like that was like my opening line and then I would chat to this guy and his name would be Bob or whatever and then he would know other people he'd be chatting with me and then Bob would say oh hey meet Phil and this is uh Neville and so this Phil guy thinks I belong at this place and I keep working the room like that and meeting people and asking them questions about what they do and all sorts of stuff and just kind of networking that way and I would say like now I would hate doing something like that at the bottom I was so curious about people's lives that this was a way to interact with them directly and also at the time we didn't have the same level of podcasts and YouTube and stuff we do now but there is nothing like meeting people in person and having private conversations that aren't recorded things like that and it was a fantastic way and I met a lot of these people I was like can I buy you a coffee at some point like I just like love to know more about your story and a lot of people be so happy to do it the richest guy I met owned a chain of carpet stores I thought like technology was my whole world and I was like this guy's way richer than everyone I know he runs carpet stores he sells carpet that's it Wholesale Carpet to big companies it's it's like things like that I learned and I thought the crashing uh party thing was very valuable and it got me inside rooms that I never would have got into I met like the prime minister of Malaysia I don't know if I actually ever published exactly what I did but like we did some scoundrel stuff to get in yeah and I got this picture with the prime minister of Malaysia like a security around people like what the hell is this and then I sat next to Michael Dell I hung out with like Lance Armstrong while watching Elton John I mean like these are crazy experiences I had by crashing parties uh which is a you know kind of a weird thing to do and I haven't done it in a while but I probably could if you read my posts you'd know exactly what I used to do and it still totally works by the way any parties you can't get in let me know I'll I'll tell you how to get in I mean it's pretty wild for for an introverted kid like myself even thinking about that because I'm super square and like follow the rules and all that kind of stuff I could not even do that but I admire that someone can and has written a whole blog post about it here's the rationale because because I used to post this online and people give me Flack about it they're like you're crashing a charity fundraiser this is supposed to go to kids I get it I understand that that point of the the argument but here's the thing I also thought I want to learn how to become wealthy and and better off so one day I could also give back let's say you consider it stealing I stole two thousand dollars or something from this charity let's say that's true overall I've given 100 times x back already and plan two a lot more in the future and so that was kind of my justification for it so whichever way you see it I saw it as crashing a party and it's silly some people saw it as stealing I'm not really sure which which way to look at it both can be true I thought it was a value add to those parties I met people and later on I actually gave back to a lot of those Charities too gray area sure I mean gray area for sure probably more black than gray but you know I think you saw it as a challenge I want to challenge challenge myself and who do I need to become and how do I get way way out of my comfort zone and if people have issues about this you just read blog posts and you're like oh my God I mean it takes a lot for a person to be able to just walk in there like you know you own a place and and you get to meet people like I can't even talk to people who I know so this is a huge challenge right well you know what I found out I would crash parties with friends sometimes a few times some people would do it with me and then what happens is it's kind of awkward when you don't know anyone right we would just end up talking to each other the whole time and that's why I would go alone because I'm like I need I'm here to meet other people I have an objective I'm crashing this party I need to meet other people I can just chat with my friend the whole time and drink free booze I do view that as a little bit kind of like stealing you're just going in and kind of drinking booze and eating their food and leaving to me that didn't justify it whereas if I met a lot of people I'm like I feel like there's some greater good here absolutely like we just accidentally walked into The Talented Mr Neville midora here it was game that was your past you've given back write a potential gray wrong maybe who knows it's all good now we'll see what kind of comments we get on this part now whether or not we wind up doing an audio space event room together in the future it doesn't matter I've had a wonderful time chatting with you I think our audience has learned a bunch of things about copywriting not over complicating things learning how to communicate and for people who want to find out more about you Neville where do they go you just type in copyrightingcourse.com you'll be greeted by a funny GIF that converts at 10 to 12 percent all the time uh sign up for my email list that's the the best way you can also follow me on Twitter at Nev Med and then at copyrightingcourse.com we have like this community where we actually just rewrite people's stuff so if you have a business or you're a freelancer you come in show us your stuff and then we rewrite we have a whole team of writers and every Thursday I actually get on a video call and we just actually live redo it chat about stuff and like you said Chris we don't just do copy it's a lot of other stuff it's like overall marketing and uh maybe if your product sucks I'll probably tell you to your face I'll try to be nice about it but I'll be directed I also have a book this book will teach you how to write better oh and you're gonna die yeah I don't really talk about that one that much that's my as part of probably my life philosophy that was just a fun one I did I have to say if you need help with copywriting if you want to sharpen your copy if you want to have a more intelligent conversation with your copywriter pick up this book this book will teach you how to write better and if you want to learn about Neville's life philosophy you're gonna die it's pretty straightforward you will die slightly dark but funny way of looking at life you're gonna write better is 95 percent of people like you're gonna die 50 of people like so be warned keeping it real Neville's real pleasure thank you very much you too is fantastic meeting Chris thank you so much hey my name is Neville midora and you are listening to the Future