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    COMMUNICATION
    Podcast 14 min read

    Overcoming the Fear of Speaking Up w/ Jule Kim

    with Jule Kim

    Chris Do and Jule Kim examine how precise, purposeful communication replaces self-censorship and pricing anxiety.

    Chris Do

    Chris Do

    Founder, The Futur™ · April 15, 2026

    The Edit That Happens Before Anyone Objects

    The objection had not arrived. Jule Kim was already editing around it. A guest in conversation with Chris Do, Kim describes herself as a hard introvert who does not fit the traditional creative category, and her account matters because it exposes the negotiation that happens before anyone else gets to respond.

    She had been revising a social post across different platforms, softening its language through successive versions. The problem was not that the revisions made her position false. They made it less complete.

    Kim could recognize the difference between expressing something honestly and expressing everything she intended. She had done the first while retreating from the second. What stopped her was a specific concern: being perceived as an angry Asian woman.

    That distinction gives the familiar instruction to speak up a sharper edge. The obstacle was not an empty mind, a missing opinion, or an inability to write. It was the anticipated interpretation of the person expressing it.

    Do recognizes a related restraint in his own history. Growing up as an Asian American refugee immigrant, he learned not to question elders or people in authority too readily. In his account, respect meant doing the work rather than challenging the person assigning it.

    Those habits did not disappear when he became a business owner. They followed him into new-business conversations, where information mattered and the questions remained unasked. He wanted to know a prospect's budget, how many competitors were bidding, and whether his company was simply supplying a third bid.

    The silence looked professional. It left him guessing.

    Self-censorship can preserve appearances while withholding useful information. Kim's softened post and Do's guarded client conversations are not identical situations. But both involve treating a feared reaction as a reason to restrict what gets said.

    Their exchange refuses an easy solution. Do is comfortable with standing apart; Kim describes fitting in as a genuine struggle. His willingness to reject conformity does not erase her discomfort, and her discomfort does not make his experience irrelevant.

    Instead, the difference establishes the problem more accurately. Speaking plainly does not begin at the same point for everyone. A person who has learned to stay quiet cannot necessarily act on permission as easily as someone who already expects to be heard.

    There is also a distinction between acknowledging those constraints and letting them decide every sentence. Kim notices her own editing. Do can identify the old assumptions that shaped his business behavior. That recognition makes the restraint available for examination rather than leaving it invisible.

    This is adjacent to the confidence question named in Where Do You Draw Confidence From? Here, however, the immediate issue is smaller and more concrete: the sentence a person already knows how to say but keeps withholding.

    Before communication can become polished, it has to become possible.

    Permission Is Not a Script

    Do credits a breakthrough to his longtime business coach. Across 13 years of coaching, one deceptively basic challenge stayed with him: identify what is on his mind, then examine what prevents him from saying it.

    The coach also challenged the certainty behind Do's silence. How did he know what a client thought? Where had the information come from? The supposedly careful professional was making assumptions about people he could simply ask.

    “Why don't you just ask?” was the permission he remembers receiving.

    His surprise is the important detail. Asking had not felt like an available move. Once the coach demonstrated it in ordinary language, the barrier looked less like a sophisticated business problem and more like an inherited rule that no longer served the situation.

    For a production company working with advertising agencies, directness did not require confrontation. It required interest in the idea, its origins, and the client's expectations. The questions were basic enough to sound almost unremarkable:

    • What inspired the idea?
    • What would a home run look like?
    • How closely should the work follow what came before?
    • What example would clarify the request for something radically different?

    Each question replaces an interpretation with an opportunity to learn. A request for radical difference, for example, is not a usable boundary until both sides understand what difference means. Silence leaves that definition with the person doing the guessing.

    Replace assumptions with questions the other person can answer. That is the practical value of permission. It does not merely make the speaker feel more confident; it creates access to information that affects the work.

    Do says he carried that lesson through more than 22 years of running a service-design business. He then extended it beyond prospective clients to his staff and team. A question that helped him navigate a sales conversation also raised a larger question about how he communicated inside the company.

    But he separates courage from delivery. Learning to speak was one part. Learning to communicate without violence, judgment, or unsupported assumptions was another.

    That separation keeps directness from becoming a license for carelessness. The fact that a thought is real does not make every expression of it useful. Nor does the difficulty of finding a considerate expression justify withholding the thought indefinitely.

    The role of outside guidance is worth retaining here, rather than turning the breakthrough into a story of solitary willpower. Do needed another person to model a sentence he could not yet imagine saying. That places his account alongside the broader subject of The Importance Of Mentors.

    The coach did not supply secret information about the client. He helped Do stop acting as though the information had already been supplied.

    Permission changed what could enter the conversation. Precision would determine what happened next.

    A Room Full of People Who Belong

    For Kim, the problem becomes vivid in Ireland. She and Do had joined a trip with Brian Collins and his group. Arriving among roughly 20 creatives, she encountered a version of not belonging that she had not fully anticipated.

    She already expected social anxiety. What caught her off guard was the additional contrast between herself and the room: most people were designers, and everyone seemed to have some distinctive element in their clothing. She felt plain.

    Do remembers the situation less uniformly. Not everyone was dressed fabulously, he points out. But Kim is describing the difference she noticed, not conducting an inventory of the group's wardrobe.

    Her survival instructions were blunt: “Do not flee.” Then: “Don't cry.”

    The severity of those private instructions complicates any breezy advice about showing up authentically. Kim was not choosing between two equally comfortable modes of participation. She was trying to stay in the room.

    She responded by reminding herself that how she treated people mattered more than the clothes she had brought. The absence of impressive clothing did not remove her ability to be herself or make other people feel good. She could also decide to work on her wardrobe afterward.

    Do proposes another opening: turn the attention outward without pretending the discomfort does not exist. Instead of dwelling exclusively on feeling underdressed, ask about the clothes that made an impression. What is the brand? What explains the fit? How do those unusual pieces work together?

    The distinction is not between negativity and compulsory cheerfulness. It is between asking another person to repair a painful self-assessment and inviting that person into an actual conversation.

    Curiosity can turn comparison into conversation. In their role-play, Do imagines admiring an outfit built from striking shapes, materials, and silhouettes. The speaker appreciates the result but cannot fully explain how it works.

    Kim's response is to ask what caught the observer's eye first. When the answer identifies those design elements, she points out that the observer already understands more than expected. The conversation reveals some existing perception rather than confirming total inadequacy.

    The possible openings differ in what they ask of the listener:

    • A declaration of feeling ugly or plain makes personal distress the immediate subject.
    • An oversized compliment can leave the recipient with little to add.
    • A specific observation followed by a question creates something both people can examine.

    This is not a claim that distress should never be expressed. Do explicitly argues for speaking uncomfortable feelings rather than letting them accumulate. His example asks how that expression can also leave room for exchange.

    Kim agrees that saying she felt out of place could have helped. She also notes that clothing itself communicates. The concern was not only finding the courage to explain her experience; it was deciding how she wanted to present herself.

    The room had become a verdict in her mind. A conversation offered a way to find out what else it could be.

    Honesty Needs Somewhere to Go

    Kim pushes the exchange beyond the appeal of a clever reframe. A social conversation contains another person, not merely an opportunity for the speaker to feel better. The amount of discomfort brought into it has to fit the context and the relationship.

    That observation becomes the hinge of the discussion. Saying what is true internally is not the whole task. There is also the question of what the statement is supposed to accomplish between people.

    Do describes starting communication workshops with the desired outcome. Advice about dressing, companionship on an emergency shopping trip, and simple acknowledgment are different requests. They should not require the listener to decode the same vague statement and discover which one was intended.

    His everyday comparison is deliberately mundane. Asking someone to pass the salt is clear. Complaining that the food does not taste right leaves the other person to determine both the problem and the expected response.

    The second statement can be sincere and still be difficult to act on.

    State the desired outcome before choosing the delivery. In Do's formulation, purpose sits underneath the instruction to speak honestly. Once the speaker knows what the conversation is for, the wording can be worked backward from that goal.

    Kim adds a sequence of considerations that keeps the listener's position visible:

    • Identify what is wanted.
    • Determine whether this is the right person to ask.
    • Consider what that person can actually provide.
    • Consider how to express the request so the person is willing to help.

    These are not four ways to disguise a demand. They are checks against making an undefined need somebody else's problem. A person can be sympathetic without possessing the knowledge, time, or authority required to resolve it.

    Do describes the interpretive burden as a mental lift. When all the listener's energy goes into unpacking what the speaker wants, little is left for answering. Precision is therefore not just a stylistic preference; in his account, it respects the limits of the exchange.

    This attention to the listener belongs beside the issue raised by Are You Actually Empathetic? In Kim and Do's conversation, the practical boundary is whether self-expression permits a response or quietly demands emotional repair.

    That boundary also changes how directness should sound in business. Do does not want a budget question buried under an elaborate approach that delays the actual issue. If the missing information is the budget, an indirect conversation is not automatically a more considerate one.

    Nor is specificity the enemy of warmth. A clear request can coexist with acknowledgment that the subject is awkward, the money is significant, or the listener has constraints.

    The standard is not perfect composure. It is an understandable purpose, expressed without requiring the other person to become a mind reader.

    The Proposal as a Place to Hide

    The discussion becomes more consequential when Kim names a familiar difficulty among creatives: stating a price when the client asks for one. The substitute is often a promise to send a proposal.

    A proposal sounds industrious. It gives the seller time, a document to build, and space to surround the number with deliverables. But in the situation Kim describes, it also postpones the moment the seller fears.

    Do's first objection is about timing. He argues that the seller should raise the money conversation rather than wait for the prospect to do it. His position is firm: discomfort discussing money interferes with the basic requirements of conducting business.

    The role-play starts with a hypothetical $50,000 price. Kim, speaking from the creative's position, can name it but hesitates over whether she can call it emphatically fair. Asked for a number she can defend without hesitation, she moves lower.

    The lower figure creates another problem. At $30,000, she would feel resentful even though she believes the buyer would receive value. The exercise exposes a narrow band between doubting the higher number and resenting the lower one.

    Do removes the resentful price from consideration. “You can't begin a relationship by saying this is totally screwed.”

    Exclude prices that create resentment before the work begins. This is not a formula for calculating fees. It is a boundary within this negotiation exercise: a number that already produces resentment is not treated as an acceptable starting point.

    They settle on $45,000 for the role-play. Then Do asks what accusation makes that number hard to say. The feared response is not simply a smaller budget. It is the suggestion that the seller is charging too much or taking advantage of the buyer.

    That distinction explains why a proposal feels protective. Kim identifies the urge to attach proof before stating the price. The document becomes an advance defense against a judgment the client has not yet made.

    Do challenges the sequence. Evidence is only useful if it addresses what the buyer needs to know. A seller who has not asked about that need is guessing at what would make the offer credible.

    The broader pricing territory appears in 99% Of Creatives Lose Money With These Pricing Mistakes. Here, the specific mistake is treating a pile of justification as a substitute for finding out what concerns the buyer.

    Do argues that unsolicited proof can even communicate insecurity. That is his warning, not a demonstrated rule that all early evidence damages trust. The supported lesson is narrower: the role-play seller does not yet know which evidence would answer the prospect's concern.

    The price needs to become discussable before the seller can discover whether the obstacle is affordability, approval, confidence, or something else.

    The Sale That Does Not End in Yes

    Do's demonstration does not begin with an airtight defense of $45,000. It begins by acknowledging the response he fears, then stating the number and inviting the prospect's reaction.

    Kim later identifies the technique as an accusation audit. Within this exercise, its function is to bring the feared negative interpretation into the open rather than silently organizing the entire conversation around avoiding it.

    Her account of hearing it is useful but limited. The admission piques her curiosity and makes her want to put the seller at ease. That describes her reaction in the role-play, not a guaranteed response from every buyer.

    The prospect still needs to think.

    Do does not treat that answer as the end of the available information. He asks what needs consideration. The prospect explains that the budget is closer to $30,000 or $35,000, and other providers have quoted within that range.

    Now the conversation has something concrete to examine. Why have those providers not already been selected? Would matching the budget be enough to secure a decision? The answers reveal that the prospect has been comparing options and still needs the team's approval.

    A budget objection does not explain the whole decision. The hypothetical prospect likes Do's company, but personal preference is not the same as organizational authorization. Lowering the price would not automatically remove that remaining step.

    Do acknowledges the gap without pretending he can easily close it. In the simulated seller's position, he explains that similar work below $35,000 has left him resentful. He also argues that choosing a cheaper option can result in paying again later.

    That warning belongs to the negotiation example. The conversation supplies no completed client case establishing that the lower-priced competitors would fail, and the prospect does not simply accept the argument. Instead, the buyer wants more internal discussion and further contact with the other providers.

    This resistance is part of what makes the demonstration useful. Directness does not produce a cinematic conversion. The seller explains the position, asks what remains unanswered, and accepts that the decision is unresolved.

    The ending makes the next steps explicit:

    • The prospect expects to respond within a week.
    • The seller asks whether silence should be treated as rejection or prompt a reminder.
    • The prospect permits a reminder.
    • The seller specifies a call or email on the eighth day and checks that it is acceptable.

    No contract is signed in the exercise. But neither side is left guessing about the immediate process. The prospect knows the price; the seller knows the budget range, the approval constraint, and the agreed follow-up.

    The example establishes a more modest and useful result than guaranteed persuasion. Clear communication can make a decision process legible even when it cannot control the decision.

    The absence of a yes does not make the conversation a failure.

    The Sentence That Can Survive Being Heard

    The discussion began with Kim editing her online expression. It arrives at a business conversation in which a seller names discomfort, states a price, hears resistance, and leaves with a clear next step. The connection is not that every uncomfortable interaction is a sales opportunity.

    It is that both situations require tolerating a response that has not been scripted in advance.

    Do sees everyday communication as practice for public communication. His view is that a person who tiptoes around reactions in private life is likely to bring some of that restraint into writing or making content online. He encourages small, repeated acts of saying what is actually being thought.

    That remains his interpretation rather than proof that online and offline behavior always match. Kim's concern about being perceived through a stereotype is specific, and publishing a post is not identical to asking someone about an outfit. The useful connection is the practice of recognizing what gets withheld and why.

    Do also acknowledges another source of restraint: growing up around people who expressed everything in violent ways. A person can fear speaking plainly because plain speech has been associated with aggression. Rejecting that example does not require rejecting expression itself.

    Directness and consideration belong in the same sentence. The standard established across the conversation is neither total disclosure nor total composure. It is honest expression shaped by a clear purpose and an awareness of what the other person can reasonably do with it.

    The practical work is already present in the examples. On a client call, replace an assumption about expectations with a question. In an uncomfortable social setting, identify something genuinely interesting and invite the other person to explain it.

    Before making a request, decide whether the desired result is advice, help, acknowledgment, or a decision. Before defending a fee, learn what the buyer actually needs to understand. Before ending an unresolved conversation, agree on what happens next.

    None of those moves requires a dramatic personality change. Kim does not have to become someone who loves standing apart. Do does not have to pretend that his early business conversations were easy. The actions are specific enough to attempt while discomfort is still present.

    They are also specific enough to evaluate. A listener either understands the request or needs clarification. A prospect either has decision authority or must consult others. A promised response either arrives within the agreed window or triggers the agreed reminder.

    That is a more workable standard than waiting to feel completely confident. Confidence can remain unsettled while the communication becomes clearer.

    The next withheld sentence deserves a precise inspection: what is known, what is assumed, what is wanted, and what response is being feared. The task is not to remove every risk from saying it. The task is to stop confusing an imagined response with an actual one.

    A conversation cannot answer a question that never gets asked.

    TRANSCRIPT

    An expression I heard, I think it was from Blair Enns, he said that if I was the ruler of the world, if I could just decree a law and put it into motion, like one of Newton's laws, then it would be that you must say what you think. And when he said this, it just rang true in my ear because many, many years ago, it was said less succinctly by my business coach, Kieran McLaren. He says, if you have something on your mind, what is the thing that's holding you back from saying it? And this is what I credit as one of the biggest breakthroughs that I had in my 13 years of coaching with Kier. And this sounds so dumb, stupid, simple that you would think, hey, dummy, who doesn't do that? What's going on? Well, I'm going to give you some context, everybody. Now, I've grown up as an Asian American refugee immigrant. And so I'm not used to speaking up. I'm not used to saying what I think. And also, out of respect for my elders or people in authority, you don't really question authority too much. You just do the work. So as I carry that with me into adulthood, into my business, there are things that I think that I want to say, but I have a hard time saying them. And so when we get on new business calls, I really struggled with saying what it is that I thought. I wondered what the budget was. I wanted to know how many other people were bidding on this project if we were the third bid. So then he tells me, I think this is in the early 2000s, he gives me this permission slip. How do you know all these things that you know about the client? You're making a lot of assumptions. Why don't you just ask? And I said to him, kind of dumbfounded, what do you mean I can just ask? He was just ask, how does that sound? Like, what does that sound like when you say it? And he says it, and he says it in the most basic, direct way. Here's an example. As the situation is we're a service provider or a production company for advertising agencies. And he said something like this. He said, I'm seeing this idea. What inspired this? What were you thinking? How does that sound? What does that sound like when you say it? And he says it in the most basic, direct way. Here's an example. As the situation is we're a service provider or a production company for advertising agencies. And he said something like this. He said, I'm seeing this idea. What inspired this? What were you thinking about? And did you have a vision for how this might be completed? If this were a home run for you, what would that look like? How closely do we need to adhere to what's been done before? And when you say radically different, can you give me an example of how different we're talking about? So these are basic questions. There's nothing complicated about it. And I found it to be extremely empowering to be able to do this. So I take this lesson and I apply it across the 22 plus years in which I run a business in the service design space. And it's served me really well. And then I think to myself, where else can I use this? Can I say what I think to my staff, my team? And then begins a long journey of learning how to communicate in nonviolent, nonjudging, nonassumptive ways. But that's the second part. The first part is just having the courage to say what you think. Because we also know what the opposite of that is, which is when we don't get a straight answer from somebody, when they're being evasive, it really annoys us because we're thinking like, why can't I get a straight answer from you? This is why people say as a virtue, I'm a straight shooter. I just tell you like it is. I speak my mind. And these are very important concepts for us to understand. Lately, as I've been contemplating how I show up online, I have realized that there is a part of myself that I'm holding back. With what I have chosen to share online, I have said what I thought. But I realized I haven't shared fully what I thought. And I found in one of my most recent posts, I've actually gone through two or three iterations of the same post just on different platforms. And I found myself softening my words. And I realized, this is what it is, this I'm afraid to say what I think as a woman, I don't want to be perceived as too angry. I'm not so much worried about how other people will necessarily think of me. But I am in this one area, I don't want to be perceived as the angry Asian. This is what it is. I'm afraid to say what I think as a woman. I don't want to be perceived as too angry. I'm not so much worried about how other people will necessarily think of me, but I am in this one area. I don't want to be perceived as the angry Asian woman. I try my best to buck the stereotypes of what people think of an Asian man. What is a negative Asian man stereotype that you think you want to stay away from so that you don't cast us all in the same light? I'm trying to figure out the kinds of things you have to deal with. So definitely wanting to seem smart and competent. Then there's the team player. And then there's the fitting in. Let's go with one of them. Fitting in. I have no desire to fit in. I want to fit out. That's a rough one for me, man. Is it? Let's look at Ireland last year. You and I went on the same trip with Brian Collins and his group. I don't know what I was expecting other than general social anxiety because that is me, hard introvert. But when I got there, there was a whole other dimension that I suddenly realized, oh my God, I don't fit in. And I feel like a glaring sore thumb here. Okay, number one, there's the fact that I'm not in the traditional creative category because almost everybody there was some sort of designer. But then number two was how I was dressed. Do you have a survival strategy when you're put in a situation like that? This is not an exaggeration, but I am literally telling myself in those situations, don't run. Do not flee. And then number two is don't cry. I don't mean to make a light of how awkward it must have been for you because I do feel that pain deeply at times. Luckily, less and less every year as I get older and older. Or, God, this whole idea that I don't look or behave or have the pedigree that everyone else has. But what are you feeling and seeing? What I remember feeling and thinking was, oh my God, I feel so plain. Because here we were, there's you dressed fabulously as always. Not everybody on that trip was dressed fab, okay? But what I suddenly noticed in this group of... what I remember feeling and thinking was oh my god I feel so plain because here we were there's you dressed fabulously as always not everybody on that trip was dressed fab okay but what I suddenly noticed in this group of like 20 something creatives every person had at least one little piece of flair so I remember sort of catching myself in hand and being like you got to do the best you can with what you got and it is about you inside it is about how you show up with these people and how you make them feel and just being yourself and maybe you don't have the fine feathers that everybody else has but we're going to work on that by god we are going to work on that when we get back I want to tie it back to this whole thing about saying what you think because if I think this and I try to hide what I think it just festers inside my body and then it manifests through everything else that I'm doing so I want to say that when you have negative feelings and thoughts that the best way to get rid of them is to speak them out loud just say them out loud that's why we say what we think because it can just compound in our mind and to build up and build up and it's like eventually just eats you up inside I agree on saying what it is that you're feeling for this thing that we're talking about with the whole here's how I look versus here how everybody else looks on this trip and I think the whole idea of saying what you think is actually multi -dimensional here because yeah I could have told you hey man I'm feeling a little like fish out of water and you would have been like well duh and then I could have let that go there's the other idea too right so there's actually speaking your feelings but then the clothes actually saying what you think as well there's two ways to say what you think that I can think of you can say I'm so negative or if you want to be more social you're like you're so positive and that's how you flip it so you're like god I just I just love the feathers in your boa though what is that or tell me more about that brand that you're wearing I love the fit I don't even know what to describe that as and I just think it's such an unusual combination I've not seen that before and then all of a sudden you're taking your awkwardness and you're focused too much on your I just love the feathers in your boa. What is that? Or tell me more about that brand that you're wearing. I love the fit. I don't even know what to describe that as. And I just think it's such an unusual combination. I've not seen that before. And then all of a sudden, you're taking your awkwardness and you're focused too much on yourself and you focus it on others, but you're not trying to get them to fix you. You're just sharing very genuinely what you think in a positive way. So let's take us back to Dublin and let's address what you're feeling and thinking in a more constructive, positive way. What is it about Jesse's style? Like it's so good, but I can't put my finger on it. I think that's a natural way to release some of that stress that you're feeling. Why don't we switch roles? This will be an interesting one. You're you, but you're the one with the fashion sense and me, I'm not the one with the fashion sense. I'm like, hey, Jewel, can I bend your ear on something? Yeah, man, what's up? Well, I know you know how to put things together, but I've been eyeballing Jess and I think I heard that she went to fashion school and everything. And you know that fit she wore to dinner the other night with like the white fur and the bag and all that stuff. I just love the way that looks. What is your take on that? Like, how does one put that outfit together? What's going on? Because I can appreciate it, but I don't understand it. I would really like, this is for real. I would actually ask you, well, what's the first thing that caught your eye about it? Okay. And I will tell you, it's like the different shapes, the material, the silhouettes fire. And they're so unusual. Like I think any one of them could be kind of cool, but the fact that she put all of them together, which has blown my mind. Yeah. And then I would tell you, the fact that you just said that already shows you actually have a pretty good grasp of how this works. So instead of me coming up to you and saying, oh my God, I feel so ugly right now. I feel so plain Jane or whatever. I've been mulling over this over the last couple of days and I'm just feeling terrible about myself. Or, hey, your fit is so fire right now, it just blown my mind. Because that's just a compliment that's so over the top. I don't know what to say anymore. It's a conversation ender, not a conversation opener. And I think that's kind of important because we're actually trying to learn something, show respect to people, but also just to air out some of the discomfort we have with ourselves and give me an opportunity to slowly let the toxic air out. And I think that's kind of an important way to set that up. conversation ender not a conversation opener and i think that's kind of important because we're actually trying to learn something show respect to people but also just to air out some of the discomfort we have with ourselves and give me an opportunity to slowly let the the toxic air out and i think that's kind of an important way to set that up so we want to make it open and not closed we don't want it to be binary and we don't want it to be like oh my god like you're so hot like i don't know what to do with myself and another person's like okay now they're creeped out a little bit i'm having some thoughts here because i think there are several dimensions at play here when the role play the situation we're describing because when we are in conversation with someone else this is where it becomes a balancing act of being mindful in the social context that you are in and of being aware how much is appropriate to bring and display to that other person i don't think it's a reframe i think it's just learning how to other humans i think if you start and i do sometimes do little lectures or workshops for communication which is to think about the outcome that you want first what is the outcome of you saying that statement like what is the outcome that you want when we talk about saying what we think there has to be this other thing underneath that which is what is the purpose of saying what you think is so then you can reverse engineer how you want to say what you think so if you want advice on how to dress better if you want to go on an emergency shopping trip then you would say very very different things the mental lift like you can't in dialogue with someone you can't make them think so hard that all the energy is spent on just trying to understand and unpack what the heck you want it's much easier like can you pass the soda can you hand me the salt please versus oh this isn't taste right oh christ what do you want me to do with that right now it's just too nebulous it's too abstract so part of communication and saying what you think is to be a little bit more precise be clear with or ask and be just very cognizant of the constraints that we're working with yeah i think that's fair because you have to think about like what that person is actually capable of you It's too nebulous. It's too abstract. So part of communication and saying what you think is to be a little bit more precise, be clear with or ask and be just very cognizant of the constraints that we're working with. Yeah, I think that's fair because you have to think about like what that person is actually capable of giving you back. I mean, number one, you have to think about what it is you want. But then number two, is this person even the right person for that? And then if they are, then number three, which is what can they give you of what you're looking for? And maybe some people will say even number four, which is then how can you package this in a way that they might be likely to want to help you? Let's bring this back to the real world now. Let's just say in a business context, that is an awkward social situation where the power dynamics aren't clear. If anything, you have slightly less of a hand than the other person. So if you want to know the budget, don't beat around the bush, like what are we hoping to achieve? And oh God, please don't get there. Let's just get right to it. And this is the beauty of direct, precise communication that's non -judging with a clear outcome in mind. Jewel, you tell me something that greater people have a hard time saying what they think. And then you say it the way they say it. And I'll try and find a different way to say it. I know they have a hard time with just stating the price when the client wants the price. And it seems that almost every creative I run across will say, you know what, let me send you a proposal. We've already failed because we've waited for the clients to ask us about budget and price. We should be the first one to bring it up and you delaying that. So let's stop doing that, everybody. Discomfort around talking about money is a sign of poor business acumen, blur ends. So you have to be able to talk about money because money is one of those tenets of business, being able to do business. When am I getting how much and by when? I need to know those basic three things. If you can't get to that, I start to worry about your ability to do business. When the client or prospect brings it up first, we're already in trouble. So when the client asks you, how much is this going to be? What would you like to say if you had all the courage in the world? I would like to say the price. If it's, for example, 50K, then I would like to say it's going to start at 50K. Okay. And is that a fair price for what you do? or prospect brings it up first, we're already in trouble. So when the client asks you how much is this going to be, what would you like to say if you had all the courage in the world? I would like to say the price. If it's, for example, 50K, then I would like to say it's going to start at 50K. Okay. And is that a fair price for what you do? I believe so. Why some hesitancy? What price can you say that you feel emphatically 100 % confident like that's a very fair price? I would say emphatically a lot of times it's probably going to be lower than that then. How much? Like 35K maybe. Okay. So why were you saying 50K at the start? Because I'm a creative and I feel like I need to prove my worth. So 30K, you don't feel like you have to prove your worth? No, 30K, I start to feel resentful, but I know that the value is more than there. Oh, okay. We're talking about a pretty small gap between these two numbers from you feeling great and also not sure if you're worth it to I'm going to be resentful if I take this price. Let's take off any price where you would feel resentful to do business with a person because that should never be an option. You can't begin a relationship by saying this is totally screwed. So what price would that be? Then I would say the 45K probably. Okay. I'm going to say 45K. What are you afraid that they're going to accuse you of when you say 45K? The stuff that they've heard a thousand times, which is like, why are you charging so much when this other guy I spoke to was charging like 30K? They're going to accuse you of this? Like as soon as you say 45K, I want you to put yourself in the mind of the client. When you say it's 45 ,000, they're like, that's too much or what? Maybe they're like, who do you think you are? So an accusation being like, you're trying to take advantage of me. Right. Do you think they might say something like that? I've heard it. Yeah. So I think a lot of people do fear that. Okay. So is that why you're reluctant to say the price? A lot of times. Yeah. Trying to avoid that accusation. Okay. So if I'm thinking back to creatives, they are afraid to say the price without attaching proof. So that's why they want to send the proposal. Look at all these things that you're going to get. Who's proof valuable to the seller or the buyer? I don't know. I would say the buyer. Yeah. So in order for us to give them proof that they want, don't we want to know what kind of proof they require? say the price without attaching proof. So that's why they want to send the proposal. Look at all these things that you're going to get. Who's proof valuable to? The seller or the buyer? I don't know. I would say the buyer. Yeah. So in order for us to give them proof that they want, don't we want to know what kind of proof they require? Yeah. Okay. So do you see a problem there? Yeah. It's a mismatch. There's an assumption that this would be the proof that would get them to sign with us. In some cases it is, in some cases it's not, but do you like to guess? I don't. Not when there's $45 ,000 on the line. So my advice to you is why don't you wait for them to ask for proof before you give them proof? In fact, usually by providing proof before we're asked for it, not only is it going to be the wrong kind of proof, it's going to be a sign that there's reasons to not trust us. When you feel that it's too much or they think you're taking advantage of them, if that's your greatest fear, I would just speak it. So now what we do is we step in, assuming that's my greatest fear. So then you, the client, ask me again and I'll respond. How much is this going to cost? I'm afraid you might think this is too much. I'm afraid that once you hear this price, you might think I'm trying to take advantage of you, but I'm going to tell you, I'd love to hear your response. It's going to be $45 ,000. Yeah. I'm going to have to think about that. Wonderful. I know it's a lot of money. So what do you need to think about? I got to see if we can afford that because we had budgeted closer to around 30, 35. And we've spoken to some people that came in closer to that range. Is there any reason why you didn't go with them immediately since they were in your range? We just wanted to talk to a variety of people and just see what all was out there. Okay. Let me ask you this question. If the budget was 35K, would that be enough for you to say confidently to go with us or you still need to shop it around? It's probably not so much of needing to shop it around, but I do need to check with our team and make sure. But at least personally, I think you would be a great choice for us. Okay. Thanks for saying that. And feel free to say otherwise, because I believe in clear and direct communication. but not only to go with us or you still need to shop it around? It's probably not so much of needing to shop it around, but I do need to check with our team and make sure. But at least personally, I think you would be a great choice for us. Okay, thanks for saying that. And feel free to say otherwise because I believe in clear and direct communication. So we're talking about a 10K spread, which in my mind, I'm trying to close, but I'm having a hard time. Do you mind if I tell you why? Please do. This may be hard for you to believe, but every time we've done a project like this for less than 35, I wind up being quite resentful because there's a lot of work to be done. And I know what happens. Usually they pick the cheaper of the two alternatives and they wind up paying not just once, but they pay twice. I'd rather just be above board with you and say, this is what it's going to take realistically. I appreciate that. I think we're going to have to have some conversations in the team and maybe go back to some of these other people because I would like to check. Okay. Well, is there anything else I'm going to answer for you then? No, you have actually been very educational. This was helpful. Perfect. Should I follow up on you or should I just wait to hear back? I will reach back out to you within a week. Okay. And if I don't hear from you in a week, should I presume it's dead or should I follow up? It never hurts to send me a reminder because sometimes I do forget. I'll put it in my calendar right now, call you or email you on the eighth day. Is that okay? Yeah. Sounds good. Okay. Wonderful. Hope to hear from you before then. All right. Thanks. Let's break that down. Was there anything difficult, weird or anything? I'm trying to show people how to say what you think. Not difficult for me listening as a seller, but I can see that people would immediately have difficulty saying the part that you said, which is, I'm afraid you're going to think it's too much. I'm afraid you're going to think I'm taking advantage of you. So you were doing the accusation audit, but hearing it actually piqued my curiosity because I was like, ooh, like, what is he going to say? So I actually think it's a great way to tee up the price because if it piques curiosity and it also, I think triggered internally for me that I wanted to put you at ease. So by you saying, I'm afraid to tell you these things, I was already coming into it. Oh no, no, no. Like, it'll be fine. So I actually think it's a great way to tee up the price because if it piques curiosity and it also, I think, triggered internally for me that I wanted to put you at ease. So by you saying, I'm afraid to tell you these things, I was already coming into it. Oh, no, no, no. Like, it'll be fine. So the point of the conversation today is about saying what you think. We mostly covered saying what we think in social dynamics in person. And the reason why we went there is because how you do one thing is how you do everything. So if you can make small practice or more small steps every single day in terms of saying what you think to yourself, to others, that eventually this will bleed over into your online life, which a lot of people still struggle with. I don't think that someone is so clear, so direct, so transparent and vulnerable and self -aware in real life that all of a sudden they get on the computer and they start writing or producing a piece of content. Then all of a sudden a switch flips and they're like, I can't say anything. I think it's usually indicative of who you are in your personal life. You're tiptoeing. You're worrying about how people perceive you. There's a performative aspect to the way that you carry yourself. You're so wrapped up in the thoughts of other people that you're so, I guess, so self -conscious about what it is you want to say. Or perhaps you were raised in a type of family or culture where everyone said everything in the most violent way possible and you don't want to perpetuate that. I understand that. This is the communication game. And one of the most durable skills of the 21st century is the ability to clearly articulate and communicate what your thoughts and feelings are. And it's a skill worth having. So thank you everybody for listening to this episode. I'm glad that you made it to the very end. I hope this was valuable and productive to you. As always, I'm hosting this series of conversations with Jewel. If you've enjoyed it, please drop us a note. Follow us on social media. I'm at the Chris Doe. And? At itsjulekim. I -T -S -J -U -L -E -K -I -M. Let us know how this episode hits, if you have other questions, or if you have some challenges. On that note, everybody, I wish you well. See you next time. Let us know how this episode hits, if you have other questions, or if you have some challenges. On that note, everybody, I wish you well. See you next time.
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    “You can't begin a relationship by saying this is totally screwed.”

    — Chris Do

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