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Rework Review

#
105
Chris Do
Published
December 20, 2019

Chris Do leads a keynote on the high-level stuff in the book “ Rework ”

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OK, everybody, this is call number one, zero five today, we're going to be doing the Book Review and the book in particular is rework rework. It looks something like this. And I've had this book for many years and I was told by lots of people. Read this book, read this book, and I didn't read the book. It's because I have a stack of books I need to read, and for whatever reason, I decided to pick it up and start reading it. And it's a very fast read, and it's written in a way that you can consume it really quickly. So I'm going to go over the high level stuff, things that I found to be very valuable. And if you get excited about it, I would really strongly encourage you to please, please buy the book. We need to. We need to support content creators. It's written by Jason Freed and David Hanson, even though they're multimillionaires by now, I assume. I think it's still the right way to go, and they created this company called 37 signals. There's a good chance you use some of their products in particular is base camp, and we usually use base camp all the time. And we loved it. Not so much anymore. Not because it's like a bad product, but we just have different needs today. 37 signals base camp. If you use base camp, these are the guys who invented it. So it's broken down in several different chapters and I'm going to go through some of them. Obviously not everything in the book, but the first thing they do is they call it take Downs, right? And this is their call out, calling out of old ideas and strategies. So let's begin here. The first thing that they talk about is that long term business planning. Is a fantasy. So they say, don't spend your time writing a business plan that's anywhere like what these business plans look like, which is 3 to 10 years out. This is what our companies look like. The reason why is because there's a lot of stuff that's happening that's totally outside your control. Things like market conditions, meaning that one day something is hot and next day something else is hot. And if you make this long term plan, you don't react to the market. Conditions to competitors can pop up and change the landscape of what it is that you're doing. And customers and have different needs and they change as well. And lastly, the biggest thing is the economy. I remember in 2017 eighteen, it felt like there was a hole that open up in the universe and swallowing all kinds of companies and devouring everything. Everything was upside down. So if you're planning to launch a company in three years and it hit 2017 you would be in big, big trouble because nothing was happening. Money was not moving, the sky was falling. OK, and plans, according to them, are based on the past to drive the future. And that doesn't make sense. So what makes sense today? OK, so they have the opposite attitude. So this is the big premise of the book, right? Don't do long term big ideas do very small term short, small ideas that you can iterate and you can grow and you can learn and you can adapt. So for them, for they have to just put this out there, that small is not just a stepping stone. That it in itself can be the destination. So a lot of people look down on a company being small, like, why aren't you growing? Why aren't you expanding? Are you guys in a state of decline? And then they go into this whole idea of this culture, especially within silicon valley, that everybody wants to be a workaholic and that's a badge of honor. So their position is workaholics make up for intellectual laziness by sheer brute force that you're not smart, you're not working more efficiently, and you make up for that just by putting more hours in. So this is a big send up, I think, to a lot of ways that people in Silicon Valley think. And we'll take a quick pause here in case somebody wants to say something. Yeah, I've got something to say. Go ahead. The note about. Business planning, he's absolutely right, and I've stopped spending time of trying to make projections trying to see how many customers will be able to buy this thing because I think what he says is just it's guesses. These are guesses your educated guesses, your business guesses, financial guesses. And we won't know until you actually go and put it out and someone actually pays for someone signs up for something. So I've kind of followed that, that mindset without getting all bogged down on. All right, we're going to hit this much revenue by this year. I have no idea. Even with my licensing deals, like I have no idea how much this company is going to go and sell this product, I could make a guess, but at the end of the day, it's still a guess. Yes, I want to talk about that a little bit. I think it's OK to make a guess. It really is. But to recognize that it is a guess. That's the difference, right? So some people think your guest is like a bulletproof ironclad plan. You bunker down, you work on something for months, years and then later on you release it into the market and nobody gives an F. But I do believe. So let's get into this, so this is a fundamental debate that my former business partner, I had Jose, and he's like, Chris, I'm supporting your plan. I want you to be the CEO of my fantastic let's do this. He's like, what's the business plan? Let's assemble a board of directors, board of advisors. And I was like, that's the opposite of how I want to work, man. Because what I know is it needs to move in this direction. It kind of feels like this and we'll just as we go. And so there's a lot of insecurity, lack of clarity and and people get scared by that kind of stuff. They're afraid like, what's going to happen? What's the roadmap? I'm like, well, we're a team of three people. We just need to agree one week at a time what the plan is. And that's total chaos. And I totally understand why Jose had a really bad reaction to this and why I don't, because in my mind, things are very organized and structured, and I live with very structured life, so a little bit of chaos is totally fine. Whereas Jose actually is clinically ADHD or add. So his mind is totally chaotic, so he needs a lot of structure. Otherwise, chaos on top of chaos will send him like out of control, spiraling out of control. So that's why. And that made a lot of sense. So he is a person who's like, I need accountability, I need daily plans. I want stand up meetings every single day. I want to have two week sprints. And I want to know what everything looks like because that keeps him on track. So it's just to understand how each person works. But for me, building a business plan, the last one I built was in 1995 and I'm doing OK. All right. So for me, it's like you kind of need to know the general direction. You have some targets that you're thinking about, but not 10 years. We're talking about six months and the way that we do it at the office as the future is, we plan it one quarter at a time. And there's this long like this reoccurring argument that happens at the office there. What do we do in a year? They said, well, we can't play the game in a year if we can't finish the quarter. So we got to finish a quarter at a time. So that we have runway to play the next quarter. And that doesn't mean that I don't have the I on the long term plan, but stop thinking like what's going to happen in a year because we'll be out of business and you won't be here in a year. That's the problem. Anybody else want to add anything to this, either a question or comment? Fine, I'm going to keep going. All right, so small is actually a good destination in itself, and they have made decisions in their company to deliberately not add features, not to keep expanding, not to keep growing the team, to add more salespeople, et cetera. So that's how they run their business and they're doing really well. All right. The next chapter is called go, and this is about making. So I'm just going to read my high level notes and ad lib where I see fit. OK, so you want to be a part of something that matters? Make something that you want. What matters is for you to do something, not what you think, say or plan. So this is all about moving from the ideation stage, the dreaming, the planning to just go out there and make something because ideas are cheap, you must execute. There's a lot of stronger language saying these same ideas, but everybody knows. Talk is cheap. You've got to go make something. Execution is everything, ok? And so now they're going to go take down all your excuses, saying that if you don't have time, that's not legitimate excuse. And the perfect timing never arrives. It never does. It's a fantasy, so you've got to just go make something. So ask yourself, what do you want? What do you believe in. Because when you're clear, you can make better decisions, so this is about all of you guys finding your focus. And this is the big problem for creatives. OK, so they want you to pick something and then live it. Now I'm going to stop this share for a second and just talk to you, ok? So recently, I've had two conversations with people that are known care about and they seem to be all over the place. I'm not going to mention anybody's name because I want to out anybody, but they have a core discipline and they're doing that. But then this looks interesting and then they do that and then this looks interesting and they're starting to spread themselves out so thin. And it's the nature of the creative person to want to do something new. The newness is the thrill and the rush, but the newness is the thing that kills you. I was talking to Ryan roeger the other day. He's also part of this group, and he may or may not be on this call. But he told me that there was this person who led this home organization housecleaning movement long before Martha Stewart, and he made his name and he used to be a janitor. And his whole theory was got to do something long enough till you succeed. So most people just quit before it gets good, and there are so many ideas and philosophies and books about this very idea. Darren Hardy talks about in the compound effect like these small little improvements you make every single day. We have a big improvement, but if you keep switching lanes, if you don't stay in one lane, you get to start over every single time. So when you have focus, when you know what it is that you want to do, like Seth is going to launch his knowledge product, right? He wants to teach people how to do licensing and he wants to do it himself. He's going to grind it out into either success, finds him or he finds success. So for so many of you guys, I think, if anything, I could wish for you right now is to find your focus just to pick something that you can live with for a while. And just try your best to be successful at it without being distracted and being pulled in thousand different directions. And I know this from firsthand experience. I've done this too, and that's why it's like I have to remind myself from time to time, this is what we're building. This sounds like it's adding to the dream, and this sounds like it's pulling me away from the dream. OK and so many people won't start their business because they want to get venture capital money, they want to start. So their theory is this is that there's plan a, there's plan B and all the way at the end is plan z and z. That's the outside money plan. So they asked you this question like, why do you need money? Why do you need money? Because when you ask for money, this is what you're going to give up. You're going to give up control and you're focused too much on cashing out because this is what happens when people give you money, they expect a really big return on their money. So it's all about building for four looks for vanity and to try to get to a point in which you can sell, it's not really building a business. And they say that spending other people's money. It's very addictive. And in the very beginning, you're going to get yourself a really bad deal. You're going to give up way too much for way too little. And then the important shifts away from customers, which is your primary concern to investors, what did the investors want investors making decisions? The optics of adding this feature or function don't look good, so we don't want to do it. Raising money. Takes your eye off the prize, it's distracting. So they ask again, what will you use the money for? OK starting a business versus a startup. A business without a plan for profit isn't a business, it's a hobby. So this is the startup mentality like we don't know how we're going to make money. We want to run in the red for 10 years because we want to do customer acquisition. So for them, this is a hobby. You can see that they're very pragmatic about how they want to build a business. They want to build a business not to exit. They want to build a business because it's profitable and they can serve customers. It's good old fashioned business building, not in this rush to build the next miracle. So you need a commitment strategy, not an exit strategy building to flip is building the flop. What you should be doing is focusing on customers and how you can get them to love you. That's the trick. Blair ends when I was talking to him about this, he's like, you should never have an exit strategy. Find a business that you can love and you can do forever when you retire is when you die. OK, so they're big thing about how to be agile, how to make moves quickly is to keep your mass low. Keep your mask low, so these are things that you need to avoid. So that you can remain agile, ok? Avoid long term contracts. Do not overgrow your staff. The minute you need somebody, don't hire them. Avoid permanent decisions, things that you can't undo. They hate meetings, so they want to kill meetings, and they talk about thick process versus thin process. That you don't want to bulk up on inventory, either physical or mental. Long term maps, purchase locks in lock ins and politics, these are things you need to avoid in order to keep your mask low so you can move quickly. All right, so stay lean and keep your mask low. Allows you to make mistakes. Allows you to fix them quickly. Change your priorities, change your product mix, focus and most importantly. Change your mind and love that they say this, because so many of us, because the law consistency is when we decide to do something, when we know it doesn't work, we keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. So I love that they are telling you. The ability to change your mind is very, very important. OK, next chapter is about progress. Constraints are our advantages in disguise and make do with what you have. So I think this goes to the expression necessity is the mother invention. So having money, having all these things laid out in front of you. Takes away your ability to invent something that you really, really need, because those constraints force you to be creative. Now, here's some a case study, an example I didn't know about this, but this makes perfect sense now once they say it, that they say that the Southwest fleet the only buy the Boeing 737. And the reason why they do that. Is it makes it really easy for any pilot or attendant and crew to work any flight. This is unlike any other airline. It also means that they're limited to how far they can fly because the planes are not that big. So this is what they talk about constraints and keeping low mass. So it makes for a wonderful operations efficiency, everybody's interchangeable in a very good way. So this goes into their other philosophy, which is it's better to have a kick ass half than to have a half ass hole. So never do anything halfway, right? So don't build half a product. Oh, I'm sorry, I build half a product, not a half assed product. So cut features. Traits, this one's really important trade stuff, you could do stuff that you want to do for stuff you have to do. This is about focus and clarity and getting rid of a lot of stuff. So you're going to apply this to how your position in the marketplace. As many of you guys are talking, it's like, I do this, I do that. I do this. It's too many things. I love this part. Ignore the details early on. So this is where people they want to get granular. They wanted to get into the nitty gritty really early, and it's just like, you know what, we're still shaping, it's clay right now. Don't worry about what the eyelids look like. Get the form in the direction right, and then you can start to refine later on. Decisions or progress, so that means that indecision is not progress. You know, can I speak to that real quick decision progress? Yeah I feel like there's a lot of folks that just are asking questions like a common questions, like what do you want to eat for lunch? And that'll be a good 30, 40, five minutes of trying to figure out what to eat for lunch when he could simply just offer a decision. Chipotle maybe that's just the first thing I'm thinking, but like, offering decisions is just saying something that gets you closer to a decision point just makes everybody's life easier. I don't know why people keep on going in circles asking questions like somebody own up or step up to the plate and make a decision. And if somebody reacts strongly or disagrees, then you know, then you guys have to decide on another option. But, you know, be in the habit of making decisions. That's something that I'm always working on. Rather than asking questions, let's decide to move forward on something. Move on. Yeah, I think what you're saying here is like when the group says, where should we eat for lunch? Nobody wants to say anything for a lot of different reasons. We'll get into that in a second. But when you say chipotle, it doesn't really matter if that's where you wind up going. Now, give us everybody a thing to anchor on, and it's like, no, I'm not feeling like Mexican. Three of us ate Mexican yesterday. Let's go for four Italian or Chinese or French or something like that. It helps other people make decisions. The reason why I suspect that people don't say anything in those moments is because we don't want to say the thing that doesn't happen because it reflects on us, right? We think if they don't choose chipotle, well, I'm the limo or people give me a kiss like, ooh, you need at chipotle, aren't you afraid of their meat? And so we're afraid of judgment. We're afraid of that, them not picking our solution. And I think at the end of the day, if you learn something from us, it's like, stop caring what other people think. So this is so much deference to like, what is the boss want or what is my wife or girlfriend or boyfriend want to eat? And so we never say anything. We're just sitting around guessing at what each other wants. So no decisions get made. Now here's my lunch hack for you guys. OK loan shark. Number one, because talking about lunch can actually take up a significant amount of time, if you think about it first. If you're going to eat with a regular group, develop a lunch calendar. This is what I used to do. So I would plan out a month's worth of places to eat in my calendar and just make them repeat once a month. We stopped talking, we stopped thinking we stop wasting valuable resources and time on where to eat for lunch. Whoever wants to decide looks at the calendar that looks pretty good and you can actually design your own menu, it's pretty awesome. No, to anybody to ask me where we're going to eat for lunch. Don't get in the car. Don't worry about it. So essentially, when we get in the car, we close the doors when we decide because I'm backing up, I'm driving, so it's either going to be East or West and whatever direction I'm heading in, that's where we're going to go. So it forces everybody to make a decision quick and then we can move on with what we want to talk about. Now, here's where the distractions come in, let's say we just finished the season finale series finale of Game of thrones, we want to talk about it, but we haven't decided what to eat for lunch, so I impose a silence on any discussions until we decide because I'm driving right. If we don't decide, we don't get to talk about this gets everybody really motivated to figure out where we're going to go. And if they don't care, I'm going to attend a greens. Yep the failsafe can't go wrong with pretty much this is new. I don't think it's new, but a delivery service where you just automate your lunches that every day they'll just deliver whatever restaurant that they chose for the day and they have a suggestion or your preferences and try to find meals that you would prefer for your lunch, which is so depressing at the same time, because that means you working and eating at your desk every day, but that takes away less decision tokens you would have to give. I like to think of deciding as a token or a coin I would have to give, and the more decisions that I make, the more coins that are given out. And sometimes you might be a little bit depleted on the decisions you would have to make, especially on the more important decisions. So if it's like smaller things on like lunch and you don't have to decide on that and having some other thing decide for you, sure that makes life easier. Another thing is like shirts, you know, the Steve Jobs turtleneck and jeans, the uniform, the uniform. Yeah, for me, it's the Black shirt because, well, you can never see if I spill ketchup or mustard on it from lunch. But yeah, it's one less decision. But yeah, I think that's a really important topic that people need to get into habit of doing more right. Phillip, do you want to say something? Yeah, I like the mustard is in fact a chemical weapon for ties many men. But back to the point with regards to people, they'll speak up when someone suggests something. All of a sudden, no one's silent anymore. They all say what they don't want. How many people that they basically say, where are you off for dinner? I don't know. But then of course, you throw 10 things at them and they'll shoot down every single one. People have this tendency to speak up against things they dislike quicker than they like or desire. Often when it comes to things like lunches or these sorts of decisions. No, because when you give an opinion, you could be wrong, but it's easier to attack somebody else's opinion. That's that's the problem. Yeah, we have a culture that's afraid to be wrong. We've got to change that. OK, back to the deck. All right. Look for things removed. OK, so decisions of progress, look for things to remove, simplify and streamline, be a curator, be super selective as to what you add. Now they're speaking mostly from a product design environment, and I'm talking about the Silicon Valley definition of product design to take out everything except for the only thing that you need. OK there's this whole story about Zingerman's delis and the way that they write about this. That's super interesting. I'm not going to read all of it to you, but I'm going to read the second paragraph. I'm going to read this paragraph to you guys. OK, so this is a review that's written so by contrast, Piazzolla will pass. Sollievo got my attention as soon as I tasted it. It's powerful fool and fruity everything I like in an oil without any drawbacks. It still stands as one of the America's best oils on par with the great rustic oils of Tuscany. Strongly recommend, and I can't remember exactly why this stood out to me in the book as I read it months ago, but they were. I think they were talking about how when you just focus SF do you remember anybody that read rework why this story was so important inside the book? If not, I can look it up in a little bit. It's about believing in the product yourself and really knowing your own product. Yeah OK. That's what it is. There you go. Thanks OK, so do less, but better. That's a Dieter Rams quote, right? And the excuses that you have is like, I don't have the right tools. I don't have the right team. And so they're saying the gear doesn't matter. Use whatever you got. Don't let that become your crutch. OK when you make something, this is it's an awesome thing. You always make something else. You've heard me say this now. Now, you know, like where I've been getting some new information from, ok? So when you make something, you make something else. This is about selling your byproducts. The lumber industry sold their waste the sawdust, wood chips and shredded wood into what is that call particleboard medium density, fiber board and chipboard. So they take their waste and they make a new product and they sell that. So rock bands make documentaries, that's their kind of waste product. And then Ford invented charcoal briquettes from waste wood, so sell your byproducts. You heard me say this before, so when you go make a motion graphics piece, what is the waste that's created? A project templates, maybe character rigs or scripts that you created. Texture files, footage, things that you make, sell those things. Another idea, you know, the camper, the shoe company, I think their Spanish shoe company, they open a store in San Francisco before construction was completed, and they called it a wok in progress. That's pretty dope. So that is not awesome, you guys, a walk in progress, and that means don't wait for things to be done, don't wait for things to be perfect. Get going. Start doing. Make it now, ok? The best way to get there is through iterations, so launch ship before you're ready. He and it was a way for them to stand out by doing that, and it really people were like, keep it the story like this. Do you remember this? Yeah And so something really cool and remarkable about that, right? Yeah people were able to write on the walls. There was just something they were just using like plywood. And they also talked about Crate Barrel at this point. They weren't waiting for everything to be perfect, but they made it. Look, it was an experience. I think that was different. So they stood out. Yes, and Guy Kawasaki talks about this in his talks. A guy got Kawasaki as the famous Apple evangelist. And he would say, like it's better to ship and it's OK to ship with elements of happiness in it. He's like even the iPhone. One had elements of happiness in it. It didn't have a great browser experience. You couldn't add apps to it. There's lots of things that you couldn't do, but they shipped anyway, and they kept iterating on it until it got better and better. And he's saying no ship crap, but it can have elements of creepiness. I think the most significant part about the iPhone was that the innovative nature of its interface period, no keyboard was more than enough to compensate for any shortcomings in those other things to make it as significantly worth shipping at that point. But they were very much. Late to the game, and I think many of the individuals that are speak of, it's not the first that comes to the game, it's actually the slowest to start, but then that moves rapidly. That makes that innovative change. I think there's some evidence that shows it's not how fast you start, but it is how fast you move. So when you start, you go like stink. But being the first and quickest the quickest to market doesn't necessarily suggest or. indicate success or accomplishment. Jumping back in. Here we go. Productivity, OK, this is like a lot of really helpful tips on how to run a more efficient office or life. OK, so they're talking about creating a lone zone so you can just work by yourself that make the first or last half of the day alone time period. Try this concept called no talk Thursdays. So we're switching the way that we run our company now that we're moving away from client work so that Monday and Tuesday is basically, I don't I'm not even in the office. Very few people are. It's mostly the staff that are editing things or are shooting or setting up for productions. And then we all get together on Wednesdays and Thursdays and Fridays to make our content. So it's been a really interesting experiment. And for me thus far, our productivity booster, it's breaking up that routine. So they're saying also give up email, phone calls, instant messaging and meetings. So they say that if you are working too much because there's too many distractions that are getting you away from doing the work. So if you make it an office policy to not do these things, you can actually get more done and go on with your life. So when collaborating, use passive communication tools, email versus face to face meetings, if you must. I love this interruption is the enemy of productivity. So they want to ban the meeting, they say meetings are toxic, but if you must follow these rules, here are the rules set a timer invite as few people as possible have a clear agenda, begin with a problem and with a solution. So it's very clear what the action items are and assign somebody to do it so it doesn't vaporize. So I think we can all benefit by following this formula. I must admit. We don't always adhere to this. OK, another thing about productivity good enough is fine. So they have this thing called the judo solution to get the most out of the lease. That's a judo solution. And they give many examples within the book. What's that? Yeah I love that too. Except me, I don't call it the Joe solution. I thought the quickest solution because you could. I guess if we're talking about self-defense, judo takes a lot of work to flip somebody. But I get the point and I use he/him and thinking of all the things that I'm doing, the minimal amount of things that I can do to try to get the maximum return on that investment of time. And the results are going, Oh my check, mike, check your voice. You're getting a little choppy there. I think that going cake is a far better analogy of it. Just, you know, it's a little dirty, but yes, and works. It works. That's how you end the fight. OK the groin kick, the eye gouged, the fish looking. He's been practicing got so. All right. So get the most out of the lease and then timeliness is more important than Polish or even quality. I know this makes your skin crawl a lot of you. But you just want to get the thing done. So there's the thing in our industry where we say you can never miss a deadline, so you must work in a way that you're peeling back the layers of the onion. So that any point, if the client says, deliver it, they have something beginning to end. It may not have the level of Polish in some areas that you want, but at least you have something done versus refining the Edit one second at a time. So when they say it's deliberate, it's due and you have to deliver well, half of it is not complete. It's undeliverable, it can't be something you can turn in. OK would you're trying to do is to get quick wins because those quick wins build momentum and momentum and momentum fuels innovation. And they say that if you ship your product. You put it out in the wild, and it's not perfect you're landing page for your knowledge product, for example, isn't perfect. But then people start giving you feedback like, what is this? I don't understand. I'm confused as anybody that's used this. So this gives you ideas. But customer testimonials change the copy, add more feature shots, whatever it is that you need to do to solve that problem. So getting feedback. I know is super exciting after I go and do a public talk. The thing I'm most looking forward to now, besides collapsing, is what did you guys think? What parts were helpful? What parts did you think were confusing? Because I want to work on it, I want to fix it. So it's a thrill that you get to present to the world. And they give you feedback in real time and you can make adjustments. OK, so what can be done in two weeks? They have this whole two week mentality. OK, so it's this idea called chunking. You guys know about chunking, right? So structure 112 week project into 12 one week projects. So you're flipping that dynamic instead of doing a three month long project, make it short one week projects, you can do that. And then take those chunks and break them into 6 to 10 hour pieces. So there's just taking take something big, make it smaller. I keep making it smaller until you could do this. And the reason why is because you can get something done in one day. Go one step at a time. They hate the long list because they say that their guilt trips, so when you look at your giant long list and you haven't done everything, you're more inclined to stay longer at the office. And just like, Oh my god, I haven't done anything. So they want smaller to do lists and whenever possible, divide problems into smaller pieces until you can do them quickly. Make tiny decisions. It's easier to change a course. No big penalty if you mess up. Seth Godin is talking about this on his show. Whoever fails the most wins. It's a different way of saying the same thing. So when you have one big failure, it could be catastrophic and it could end your company and could force you into bankruptcy. But the cool thing about making tiny decisions small mistakes is they don't hurt you much if you get it wrong. Competitors, I'm doing the dramatic positive in case somebody wants to jump in. Ok? competitors, especially if you read the book. Make you part of your product. The case study was Zappos CEO Tony Xie. He injects his obsession with customer service into every aspect of the company. Everybody starts by working customer service fulfillment for four weeks. Because competitors can't copy you in your product, this is how you have culture and you have the DNA of what it is that you believe permeate everything that you do. Brilliant case study if you haven't read the book, read the book delivering happiness by Tony Xie. It's amazing. It's how he built this billion company and sold it to Amazon. Making customer service priority. Could be this is an interesting positioning thing Starbucks versus Dunkin' donuts, right? Friends don't let friends drink Starbucks, so they're drawing a line in the sand. They're saying, choose one side or the other, and they're calling out the other side. So here's how Audi does it versus old luxury, which I assume they're referring to something like Mercedes or even Lexus in a way. So they say Audi owners know how to park their own cars. What a dig. Having an enemy gives you a great story to tell. People have to pick a side. Passions are ignited. There was one line that really resonated that was have a point of view and stick to that point of view because if you're sharing the point of view of other people, then you're just going to be another one of them where if you have a strong stance on something and you could speak to it and argue against a debate about it and try to enrich people about it, then I think it becomes it feels more genuine and authentic, and it's a lot easier to speak on that topic. So I have a very strong point of view about the things that I do, and I will argue and debate about it all day with anybody that argues against it. And that really, really helps in a lot of things, like creating content for your stuff, creating the products that you're going to create and the ways that you help people. Winston Churchill had a good quote to this effect, saying that you've got enemies to you, good, it means you've stood up for something you once in your life. And I think that's, you know, having engendering haters and people that are anti-eu is actually just as important as generating followers because it clearly defines your personality and your stance. But being unwavering or being unwilling to challenge even your own beliefs is where you can get trapped in that situation, being able to consider. Growing, I think, but but still standing firm in your sort of yeah, I don't know how to treat that properly. Well, somebody said this to me recently at the awards conference. They said being a creative or designer is to have strong opinions held loosely well, like that. OK that'll do. That's perfect. OK, so having an enemy gives you a great story to tell. People pick sides, passions are ignited. That's what you want to do. You want to underdog your competition. I love this because so much of the culture is like, we'll beat them at everything. So like, no, we'll do less than you and see what happens, because it allows us to focus in on doing a few things better. So instead of one upping try one Downing, it's better to go down fighting for what you believe in instead of winning by imitating others. And it's OK for customers to outgrow you because it allows for other customers to grow into you. So this is a response to like, why don't you add this feature and function to base camp or one of the other products, right? So they say, no, that's OK because it's going to get overbloated and we like to keep things super streamline. So when somebody, this is what I was saying before that we don't use base camp anymore because we've outgrown it. We're moving on to different pieces of software, but they get to serve a whole other community of people. That need what they have. This this is an odd rule. Don't write it down. If it's important, you'll remember it. This is their filter for if things matter, you'll remember. So if you have to write it down, maybe they don't matter. Another idea they said don't be in store. Good focus on at home, good because they relate this experience. But when you go to Best Buy and you buy something and people tell you about all the wonderful things and the packaging looks amazing and the demo looks amazing. Then you go home and there's a super frustrating experience. And that's where it matters in the hands of the customer using it. It's like IKEA furniture. When you go to IKEA and you see the showroom, it's like, wow, this is all really nice and beautiful. I can't wait to have my room look like this, and then you go and try to build it in your home. It looks like shit. It's like, why? Why is it? And it's all wobbly, and the lighting is all terrible. Or if you get like something nicer, like a really nice, I don't know, something from design within reach. I'm sure Herman Miller. I'm sure there's nicer brands, but you know, you get a nice Ottoman right there or an entry table who looks hot. You definitely know that's not ikea, right? So on the furniture tip, I just want to let you guys know this if you like designer modern furniture. Here's a tip if you buy it from the manufacturer for your office, oftentimes you can buy it between 30% to 50% off. OK, and that's just the normal price. Because manufacturers sell it wholesale to retail and retail, it takes the other 50 percent, so it makes no difference than whether they can sell it to you or to design within reach. So the best seller you're ever going to get designed design within reach, it's going to be somewhere between 10% to 20% off maximum. But when I want to buy an old couch, it just call up my no dealer and I buy it for 50% off. They just need to you're buying it directly. It's a commercial application and you're fine. So that's just a wink to you just to make sure it's a commercial application. OK let's talk about promotion, grace. All right. Just a second on that last quote, we had the write it down. Yes, I thought so. What was interesting about that? That was focused on feedback. So when you get feedback from your customers, oh, is that right? You don't write it down. So your concept here is if you don't, if you don't write it down and no one else complains or no one else has that feedback, then it's just going to die naturally. But if people keep saying the same thing to you, they keep saying, oh, you know, this doesn't work or you start thinking, OK, this is something I need to actually do something about. May add that Amendment here. On customer shoot. Feedback Thanks for that clarification, Paul. Don't write it down. So if enough people say it, you don't have to write it down. That's what you're saying, because somebody one person makes a request, then you think that's really important, right? And then you change the features and you added when it's only a very small group of people who want that thing, we fall into this trap too because we can't. Although we strive for 100% customer satisfaction, there's always going to be one or two, sometimes five customers who's like, I don't like this one thing. And then this gets brought up in a meeting like, well, Chris, we need to change this. I'm like, why? Well, people don't like it. I'm like, well, how many is people? Three I'm going to move on because there's 3,000 customers. That's not enough for me to say, let's deal with that. Thanks for clarifying that, Paul. Promotion promotion, promotion, ok? Obscurity is good while you're testing ideas, so they're saying like, you know, while you still working out your product, don't worry about whether it's in the spotlight because you can work and then you can make failures and nobody knows. Nobody cares. It's totally fine. OK this is a really big concept, this is one I've been talking about now because this one is something I remember here. OK, so here goes all companies have customers. We know that lucky companies have fans, the best companies have an audience. This is their secret weapon. The reason is you don't have to buy the attention of your audience. They gladly give it to you. So now you have to start thinking about how you build an audience. OK so here are some things that they talk about, you could speak, you could write, you could blog, you tweet, you can make videos. You can share what's valuable to build a loyal audience. I love this idea, I'll teach your competition, teach and you'll form a bond. Earn their loyalty. It's a special connection. This is counter to what big companies do because they're obsessed with secrecy so you can outmaneuver them and teach. And this is another idea I love from the book is that we need to start thinking like chefs to share everything they this is what chefs do. They share everything they know, they have recipes, cookbooks, cooking shows and for you not to be afraid of sharing. So they're happily giving you away their best held quote unquote secrets. And what happens is their popularity rises because they're educating and they're building an audience. Rabid fans who then want to go to the restaurants, who want to watch your TV show and buy products they recommend and show up for them. So what do you do, what are your recipes, what's in your cookbook? Now, interestingly enough, when we started this whole knowledge product thing, I hadn't read the book rework yet and I was telling you guys, look at this recipe, this is how you should lay it out. It's so clear. Build your knowledge product around the analogy of a recipe, so it's in perfect alignment. How can this be? And can Rex's from. Oh, hold on, dude, steph, you're breaking up again. Yeah is your internet connection ok? You're clear now. Go ahead. All right. Yeah there are so many lessons and principles they can learn from cooking and the kitchen. Oh, turn off your video. Turn off your video. All right. All right. Mike, check my check. OK Yeah. And let's try that. So the recipes and the cookbooks there are, they're amazing. And breaking things down like a recipe and a cookbook is what I'm trying to do. But there's also other elements of having too many chefs in the kitchen. If you've got too many people or too many team too big of a team, nothing ever gets cooked or made. And then I feel like there's so many things we could. Just like just this topic alone, we could dive really deep into it. And I know there's that one book before our chef, I think from Tim ferriss, the same author of four hour work week, where he's using cooking and the kitchen as a metaphor for learning. And you could the way that chefs learn how to make things and cook something and pass that knowledge on. It's like it's so many, so many things we could go into. Yeah well, so I'm glad you brought that. Sorry, if I'm yeah, I'm a little late here. So, Brian, hey, what's going on? So I love that you brought up the four hour chef because that's actually some, some stuff I'm trying to reconcile in a few of my own scripts and videos, like just kind of a meta principle. So I have certain concerns when stuff is just put as a recipe because like. It's kind of trying to reconcile between the meta principles that builds upon, how do you? OK, so the difference would be. Let me say how articulate this, what you're basically looking, how to cook a chicken, right? So but there is a higher principle as far as how do you cook meat? How do you how do you even put a recipe together to which way that you would put the chicken? So how did how do you feel about that as far as the recipes? Because sometimes I feel like it's easy to get stuck in the whole recipe thing versus trying to look for the higher principles that would allow you to build. Mumbled something, I guess, that works towards you. Brian, what's the issue? You didn't articulate the issue clearly, so I can't respond. Sorry I guess at what point do we draw the line between just using just using a recipe like say? Just deciding to stick with this. And then being more versatile and adaptable by looking into the deep meta principles. Perfect OK, so you're talking about two different things here. We're talking about you're talking about learning fundamental like knife skills, like learning how to taste and deconstruct things, right? So for that, you go to culinary school, but that is a big commitment to ask of anybody, of yourself and of other people. So that's why there are very few culinary schools that are household names. OK, guys, the chefs who write these cookbooks like. Bobby Flay. Was that guy, Mario batali? So we know their names because they've made it easier for the average person, the enthusiasts to get a result that approximates what they can produce. So they're condensing 20 years of experience, at least four years of culinary studies, let's say. And then you, the amateur aspiring chef, can make something that's kind of close. And the way they're able to do that is because they know how to do something. So well. They can break it into a formula. That even my 13-year-old son. Can make something that's pretty cool. So he's making like cinnamon rolls, they're making their baking bread, they're making macaroons, they're just making all kinds of things like, Wow. So when you know something so well and you can distill it down to a recipe that anybody that has an average level of intelligence can produce, you have now mastered that thing. So I think no matter what you do, you should strive to be able to do something like that because just nothing more than to prove to yourself, you actually know something. So I'll give you an example. You know, our topography manual something you guys have seen it. It's just 10 tips on how to improve your topography. And I sat down one day and I just wrote that I'm like, here, it's one of our most downloaded things that we've made. So I can, to some degree, condense down years of design and topography experience into a 10 page booklet. Typography cookbook. More or less? All right. So if you want to understand the fundamentals, the meta, I think that's fantastic, Brian. But think about this like if you are an at home person and you're going to learn this recipe, you're going to do it over and over again. That might spark the interest in going deeper to learn more recipes. And then eventually you start to experiment because you have a mastery and you'll understand why these ingredients, why in this order, and you're able to make something different and you add your own take to it or you swap out certain ingredients. I seen people do that like. Like a plant based pizza, I'm like, what is that so? How did they do that without eggs and things? Sure Chris, can I say something real quick? Yeah, yeah, go ahead, man. I just wanted to say like instead of like doubting what the recipe might share to you, like just the fact that you're practicing anything in that direction is new knowledge. So it's opening up a new form, you know, and you practice and you can apply that in any way in the future. So you may not. No, no, no. Like with deep knowledge, what the new thing you're learning, but at least it's an introduction, you know, and you get to build off of that. That's all. Yeah, but think about it, if you had to write a recipe for what it is that you do and you give it to someone else and they do it and they fail, you're like, OK, it's not them, it's the recipe. So keep working on it. You're getting really good feedback, right? A lot of people have written to us that the core framework has changed their game, changed their life, helped them to do x, y and z. And that's a pretty good cookbook. I hear that I hear that right, you could see that, so it's like we worked on that for many iterations. It's called 1.9. It wasn't core like 1.0 cent the beta version, so it took a little while to get it there. It's like, OK, I think a huge majority of the people who do this are going to have similar success as we intended. It may not be exactly the way that we do it, but it's going to be close and that's good enough. All right, let me see if I can just add one thing on that, so the point that they're talking about in the book about emulating the chefs is also that, you know, a famous chef, he can write down all of his tips and all of his recipes into a book. But that doesn't mean that I will be able to open up a restaurant next door and take over his business. And in a way, it also builds audience around him because he is sharing his own knowledge and all that he has. It's like, you know, I've been following future for like three or four years since it was cool. And still, I mean, I cannot make blind or I couldn't create the new future. I've learned a lot from it. I've gained a lot from it. It created an enormous amount of authority in my mind, but I cannot replicate it completely. Right, OK, so let's talk about this. This is why they bring this whole thing up, right? So celebrity chefs are able to give away all their secrets, literally all their secrets, and teach you how to do what they do, but they're not hurt by it. And I like to challenge that lob. like to say that if you're able to say bake. An amazing Crescent. Let's say that's one of the recipes you make the most amazing because you followed the recipe to the tea and you learn how to scale it. You could open up a bakery and you could add other recipes to that, and you could just start making those things seriously just built on what you've learned. But you're still not going to be as famous as Gordon Ramsay or whoever wrote Jamie Oliver, who wrote the pastry formula for you, right? Because you haven't taught anybody yet, so they're not afraid of you competing against them because you actually on the scale of things, don't even exist on their radar. That's the big difference. You could open up blind. You could make the channel the past as an antidote to the future. You could do that. And you could grow your own audience. But I'm not threatened by it because if you teach the exact same thing who they know more right now, they would know us more than you because we have a 500,000 head start on you, right? We have. You're always going to be 25 years ahead of them, you know, or whatnot like. And even if they start now, there's no way they're going to catch up to your level of mastery of the industry because you've been doing it for so long. Well, I'm not so sure about that, Philip, but I'm not threatened by it. And neither are they. You have your own level of success because, look, I'm out there to Slay the masters, right? So I'm not. I don't believe that we'll never catch up. In fact, we've caught up to many people and have surpassed them. OK right. You can get there. It won't be overnight. It's the thing. And then if love you, surpass us, like in two years, it means that we've stagnated. We've stopped growing. We stopped giving value. We stop teaching. That's on us. That's not on you. It's not because you're out teaching us this because we've stopped growing. I think that's the difference. Yeah you know, in fact, that they can never catch up to the amount of experience. However, they can leverage things to overtake your position. But at the same time, that's more on you than it is on them. Yeah so once you come to our office, Philip, you'll see we have our hit list of everybody that's ahead of us. And slowly but surely, we just cross one off at a time high. That's what we do. So we can't catch up. I have little reference. I have a little voodoo dolls for everyone. I wish them no harm, to be honest. I just want to grow. So it's not a zero sum game. OK, so here we go, so you want to give them a behind the scenes backstage pass. And I know people like it's a metaphor. Guys show them how the sausage is made. Because what happens is they build a relationship, a bond with you as the human being. And not some faceless company. So in doing so, you can show them your flaws because there's beauty in imperfection. The wabi sabi concept and for whatever reason, why computers want to recognize the spelling of wabi sabi, the Japanese concept that there's beauty in imperfect things, the knot in the Plank of wood celebrate that. Don't try to Polish that thing out. So don't sterilize, be up front about your shortcoming. Don't lose your soul. Now, the concept about promotion, niche media over mass media. So they say everybody wants to get written up by the most prominent publications wired magazine, the Wall Street journal, et cetera. So here's the thing about this is that they see big writers look so small writers and smaller publications to find their stories, so they do the groundwork. So if you focus on the trade publications, it's lot easier to get in. This is where they sourced their new content from. Another idea that works if you're a product company. Not so much of your service company is to offer free trials or limited use versions. That's like the freemium model, right? Give them some version of what it is that you do. In hopes that they like it. And they will use that and then build on that. This is an interesting concept. Everything is marketing. It's the sum total of everything you do. The emails that you send out, how you talk to people on the phone. Of course, the product, the website and even the invoice. Nobody embodies this better to me than Mr Johnny cupcakes. His DNA, his personality, his voice, his use of puns is everywhere. Down to his blueberry scented business cards. Or his takeout menu style for his speaking engagements. It's everywhere. Was that sorry? Johnny cupcakes. Thank you for branding be used interchangeably. There Everything is marketing. Everything is branding. Yes so brandy can also say everything is sales. I mean, everything is everything, everything is everything, you guys. It really is. Right? so this is really when you guys say, I do branding. Do you really? Do you help design the entire user journey, experience customer experience for your client? If you don't, you might want to rethink how you describe what you do. So those are you guys that think that branding is designing the logo and an identity system, you need to add a few things you need to start thinking about the entire customer experience. Because that is branding. That means you have to acquire new skills. You have to ask different questions. You have to go out of your comfort zone. OK, hiring, we're coming to the homestretch here, you guys, we only have like three more little bits here, and I appreciate all my unofficial co-host in terms of filling in the blanks because I don't remember everything, obviously. OK hiring, hiring, don't hire for pleasure, hire to kill pain. I think they're talking a little bit about how in the early stages. We get higher happy, so we start staffing up when we don't even have, like a legitimate job for them to do. And there's an addiction. When you get a resume submitted on your desk, and it's somebody's got great credentials. We want to hire them because we want to lock them up, we want to add them to the team and your team gets bloated. So he's a pass on this. It can be an addiction. Another perspective resumes are a joke. They don't care how about landing your job, they just care about landing a job. This an interesting thing here that's happening, so I'm going to share with you guys something that's in real time. It's a conversation I had with my wife this morning. OK, so let me stop this check the cover letter real communication. OK, whatever. Let me stop the share their. So our policy moving forward is I only want to hire people who believe in the mission of the future, that they believe in this endeavor, that we have to change education and they want to help us do this as we are a self-funded bootstrap startup. It means that you're going to have to give up a lot of creature comforts. I'm sure you can apply your talents elsewhere for more money, but that's also a great sign for me because I use the financial constraints as a filter because I don't want people rushing in because they think there's a fat paycheck here. There isn't at least not yet. Whereas if you go to Google or apple, you're going to get an amazing salary. You might even be a PC person, but you're like, you know, I get paid really well here. So for us, I only want to hire people who believe in the mission as much as I do that are as passionate about as I am. And so the test sometimes is when we offer somebody a job, they like, you know, I can get more money elsewhere. That's a pretty good indicator to me that they just want a job and not my job. There's a big difference there. Let me know if you want to know more about that. Yeah, I want to know more about that, because I'm trying to get a job at a place that I really want to work, but I have the reality like I would be a great hire for them, but it's going to take a certain amount to get me interested. I have a minimum level of engagement as the feature has taught me. All right. So that's what my wife says is that what you teach people to negotiate against you? I'm like, yeah, you should totally negotiate against me, but it's going to be hard to negotiate me, isn't it? It's going to be a tricky thing. So yes, you should ask for whatever you can get, but ultimately you have to make a decision. They'll have to make a decision, too. So for them, they want to pay you as little as possible. And you want to get as much as possible. That's just the human nature, the dynamics of it. All right. They're trying to preserve capital and you're trying to make sure you can feed your dog or whatever it is. That's fine. So you should negotiate and you should negotiate hard. But then in a day you have to look at this like, do I want to make five, 10, 20,000 more or do I really want to work at this place because I can grow? I believe in the future, not us, but just the future of this company. You have to ask yourself that question. And let me put it in perspective, especially for those people who are still pretty new in their career. My first job offer was 85,000 a year, and I quit that job offered to make a $30,000 a year job. OK, so that tells you something about how I make my decisions. I never pursued the money because I know The money will be there. I want to pursue the opportunity, the experience, the learning potential, the growth and something that ignites my passion. So I could have wasted away at doing something that paid me really well. Here's the problem. Here's the danger of this OK is that they become golden handcuffs, because let's say I stayed at that job for $85,000 a year and I'm a 22-year-old kid out of school. I'm making more money than I thought possible. It's like, this is fricking ridiculous, and I'm only going to make more money as I gain experience and level up within the agency. And then I buy a house and I buy a car and I start living a certain lifestyle. And then that job opportunity that comes up, that's for $30,000 I can no longer take because I've now accustom I've become accustomed to this kind of lifestyle. Staying in nice hotels have an expense account. And eating at fancy dinners and having gym memberships and all the accouterments that come with that. So those golden handcuffs get really tight on your wrist, so I would say this, that money should not be the only determining factor as to whether or not you want to work at a place you should negotiate really hard for what's fair to you. But then a day look at the totality of what it is that you're getting or not getting. And I would choose the learning experience and the lifestyle over everything because the money will come. So I'm having this experience right now in real time. I'll tell you later on the outcome of this conversation, right? So we offered a young person an opportunity to work for us for full time salary that's paying this person more than their day rate. Right, usually when you take a staff job, it's a guaranteed income, you have health insurance, you have benefits and you can take days off, you have vacation time, you have all these kinds of things. We're actually offering them more than they're getting in their day rate, but they're negotiating back and they're asking us beyond what we're comfortable paying. So the response from this person has been we'll find I'm going to be on a week to week basis and I'm going to look for another opportunity. And I was just thinking to myself, that's right, that's what you want to do. And I start to think this person really a is not really invested in the future because we're offering you a salary, so you want to get paid more money. No problem. I understand your motivations now. I totally understand your motivation, so I'm going to have the talk with this person to make sure that they are making the best decision for their future because when we're a billion company and you look back and just like I could have been a fifth Beatle or the fourth Beatle. And you left because you wanted to make. $2,000 more a year. Did you make the right decision? Did that help you, rachel? Yeah, I did. That just stir up, I was taking mental notes, but not writing it down because, no, you don't need to write. So there's a lot more complicated metrics involved in this, right? Mm-hmm And you know, to tell you another story with my older brother who's a software developer, he moved around a lot of different companies. But for whatever reason, he either got out or got in too late or too early, so he got in. After all, the vested shares were like giving out. So when they went public, he didn't really get much. He left before that happened, and then they went public. So finally, he stayed in two companies that did go public or were acquired, and he did make a lot of money. But it took a while to get there. OK, let's go back to the dark. Whoever is like washing dishes. Somebody want to say something. Go ahead. I was going to say basically the allure of shiny things and large cash amounts when you're very early in your career is very alluring. I2 is like at 22 years old, 72,000 a year. As a junior art director, I thought, I basically I come, I come into my own and I derived and then made poor choices and realize that it's not all about the money. Yeah all right. Next thing. So this is really about education, right, so this about hiring the right people. So some of you guys this material won't be as relevant to you and they're like, OK, so your resume doesn't matter. They're all lies. Gpas don't matter. The school that you go to doesn't even matter because there's a stat there that they threw up 90% of CEOs heading up fortune or top. 500 American companies never received an undergrad degree from Ivy League that more graduate from University of Wisconsin than Harvard. So any college will do OK. Any college will do. So the problem is because he's like, this is what they teach you in academia. The longer documents are better, that the stiff formal tone is better than being conversational, using big words as impressive more words to make a point. The format matters more than the content. This is what the teacher in academia. Delegates are deadweight. Everyone's got to be producing, and I 100% agree with this now that we're in this place where we really have very few managers. So hire managers of one, you guys understand the concept. I think it's about managing yourself. Come up with goals. And they're able to execute them, so this is about hiring people who that are autonomous, who can set their own deadlines, their own goals and formulate their own plans, and they just do it. Hi the best writers. As a tech company and as a company, as interconnected, I guess through the web, geography doesn't matter anymore. The best people are everywhere. And working remotely work remotely with people that have overlapping schedules, and they have a plan for that, that's in the book that you can read about how they're able to manage people working in different time zones. Test drive employees. So some people sound like they're amazing on paper, but they don't work like that in real life, and if you ever had higher people, I've run across as many, many times they all talk the talk. They show up with an amazing resume. They talk about their past experiences and efforts. And then when you hire them and clock out of five o'clock, like what is going on? Just putting in a bare minimum. And unfortunately, we didn't test drive these people, and then I had to fire them. Hard to hide the truth in a real work environment, so that's the best way, so test them out. The culture. OK culture is a byproduct of a consistent behavior, culture is action, not words, especially not words that you write up on a wall. So some of you guys have built a mission statement, but if you don't live your mission statement, it's worthless. You spent too much time writing a document that's worthless. And don't make up problems that you don't have with what if questions, so this is a general life philosophy, especially in meetings, if you have a meeting and people are like, well, what if this happens? What if that happens? Sometimes you're that person. So you could just put that up on the wall. Don't ask what if questions? They're made up problems. What if a customer wants this feature? What if? So you can build a rock star team out of trust, giving people the ability to be self-directed through autonomy and making sure that they're responsible for what they say they're going to do. And if you hire a group of people that need constant feedback or approval, it creates a culture of non thinkers. OK they want to send people home at 5:00 because they've eliminated meetings, emails, they've cut out a lot of really inefficient things and disruption. So that they can do this. And if you tell people you must go home at, five people will find ways to be more efficient. To get the work done. So this is the same thing that they were talking about, don't create a policy just because one person is Messing things up. It's probably because you have one bad person. You know, there's a certain phenomenon that's working less days during the week, you know, there's more and more people and companies working Monday through Thursday taking the Friday off. And I would ask them, are you still having the same amount of workload? It's like, yeah, I'm still doing and achieving the same amount of workload, except I'm doing it within these four days. And because they know that they have the Friday off, they have that extra incentive to go and get it done quicker and try to leave by 5:00, which which is an interesting, interesting result of what's happening or that's what I think is happening. That's a lot of waste. If there's a lot of waste at the office because I think what people are saying is I have to be here to 7 o'clock and human nature is like, I like being distracted by social media. I want to update this or that, or it's time for I get a coffee. And then when you drink a coffee, I got to go to the bathroom so you're constantly in a state where you're interrupting your own flow. So I know that if I have to go somewhere and do something by 2 p.m., I turn everything off and I'm just heads down. I get the work done. It's a kind of an intensity, a way of working. But I also know that some places they take, like during the Summers every Friday off and they work 10 hour days during the week. So somehow you expand and contract to meet the demand of work. But this is not applicable to lots of different businesses, especially if you have customers that are going to call you at 6:00 PM. It does work when you're in a productized business that sells through the internet. And the part they probably don't talk about is somebody's got to be working customer support. 24 hours a day, it just doesn't have to be your main team. Right, that's the reality. What if a client calls or you've got to go deal with that? Chad and Chad brought up a quote that I said something that I'm familiar with in an eight hour day. You know, you basically do all your work in about three hours. And I'm familiar with this when I was working in the ad agencies and whatnot in Toronto, the larger ones at the taxi and in the Ogilvy that I actually accomplished most of my primary tasks in the last two hours of the day because I was basically plagued by meetings and memos and all sorts of other things and other interruptions that the hustle actually happened the last two hours to get it done. So that basically demonstrated, in fact, I could do my entire job in two or three hours and not be here. There you go. OK, here we go, we're almost there. Me say here. OK, talk to customers the way you talk to friends, avoid jargon, forget formalities, the rules just communicate. So here's the conclusion. Ideas are immortal. Inspiration expires. When you're inspired, get to work, it's a magical productivity multiplier. It's a now thing, so strike while the Iron is hot and get to it, so that's it for this part of it. I'm going to stop the share. Let's have a discussion, anything else, so some of you guys are wondering in the chat, are these official co-hosts? Now they're just more vocal members of the community. And if you have something to add to share to, to correct me on, I love it. When you guys chime up or if you want clarity, we can talk about it. My memory on these things is not fantastic. So the way that I read is when I was reading it, after I write, after I read it, I wrote this document. So this has been sitting on the shelf for like six months now. And then I apply as much as of what I've learned in the talks and discussions I'm having with people in real time. That's how it sticks with me. And so the important idea is when I say important, the important idea is to me. I remember and I could tell that story over and over again. So the document, the keynote that I put together is just a way for me to be able to call very specific things from the book itself. That's all I'm doing at four, and then I share that with you, further reinforcing what it is that I've learned or what I read. So if you guys are looking for a hack, it's not about the number of books or pages you read, it's about what you retain and what you apply and teach to other people. So when you're reading your book? Try to think about how you can translate this or transfer the knowledge to other people, either through public speaking, through podcasting, through YouTube videos, whatever it is, transfer the knowledge. That's how it's going to stick to you. OK OK. We're still in the discussion of the book rework, are there any concepts or things you guys want to talk about before we do something different? Yes your worksheet that you posted recently how you basically had divided up your days into the entire day is focused on this. Where did that originate from? Because we originally had a time focus sheet that was like a couple of years back for the future kind of really helps you organize things. But where do you kind of get the idea of putting it all? One the state is committed entirely to this. Nothing else is that focus. I think it came from something that Ben and Matt were talking about where Ben is trying to align all of his client calls on one day, all the meetings on one day, and they've been experimenting with that to see how that works, right? And they're like, oh, it's been really great. And for me and I started looking at my schedule, it's like scattershot. If you were to look at some of my older schedules, your eyeballs would melt. It's like, where do you eat? Like when you go to the bathroom because it's all jam packed. So my days were then about filling in the slots, so I felt busy and productive and managed. But then I realized I don't have time to read and write, and I'm dangerous when I can read and write. Meaning what? I learn. New ideas. So this is the multiplier effect, right when I learned a new idea. It's not just one person getting smarter because immediately I turn around and I teach the team or I get on YouTube and we talk and we share or I share what I've learned with the pro group. So you're getting ideas that are new in real time, new to me, at least, and I'm sharing that right away. So there's a multiplier. So every time I'm reading something, I'm able to bounce them back 1,000 times, maybe even more than that. So when we sit around and we talk like Chris, we needed to give you time to read and write, I'm like, yeah, we'll stop scheduling for junk. Because they just look, everybody in the office literally has access to my calendar. And if you start to look at it, it's like there's a 10 minute break between doing a live stream and then doing this and it's just bananas. And I said, guys try to put a little wedge in there and try not to stack up my day. So it's so crazy. Because if it's the fifth recorded video that I have to do in that day, I'm going to be cranky and you're going to see it. Because I can't help it because I'm angry at you for even scheduling it like this and you have no consideration for the human being that has to do the work. I know I seem like a robot, but I'm not. I can't be just giving this out all the time. So the idea behind that is just to wall me off from to protect me, from myself and from others for jamming up my schedule. So I do want to write one day, I want to read one day. And I do want to. My wife laughs at this self-care day. She just had the biggest laugh because I'm like, oh, honey, I'm so sorry, it's just working out today, she's like, oh, why today's self-care day? You look at you trying to manage all that, or if I had my mud mask on my face like, oh, self-care day, I got it. I got it. She knows there's someone very close to me who's basically doing what you were doing previously where there's just they've got so much on the go that they can't even find time for this that are essential things that they are letting themselves out on and identifying how to communicate that to them is a great value to me personally and emotionally and them as well. So thank you for that information. Very much so. Another thing that having like a day to focus on stuff is for all you workaholics or your high productivity people. It leaves the alleviates you from the guilt that you feel. So when it's reading day or it's just chill out with a family day, I'm not sitting there like, Oh my god, I got to be reading, I got to be writing, I need to produce content and you respond to all these things. Don't feel like whatever. Today's the day I get to do this. So Saturdays now are like, hey, let's drive out an hour and a half and let's go and watch a movie together, let's go eat dinner over here and this place that we've never been to. Let's go do that and nobody has to feel guilty, like, oh, you know, daddy has to work. And I'm like, no, today is not the day for that. There's the day for that. And today's not that day. And anybody else have a question or comment about the rework, the things that we've shared and how this format works. I had a funny. OK, Mo, go, and then I heard a female voice. So go go Mo Mason or Mo. Oh, no, it's you, Mason. It is. Go ahead. I just had a funny concept of like what if and not letting that control how you do things. So when I quit my first corporate job to become a designer, I got rid of my cell phone and my SUV. I think I'd gotten this out of Tim Ferriss four hour work week. But like people would say, what if there's an emergency? How can you not have a cell phone? What if someone's dying? And I'm like, well, I guess we'll see. And what I learned after I started doing that is like there was literally not an emergency the entire time where I could have saved somebody's life if I had a cell phone on me. So I saved $100 a month by not having a cell phone, and everyone's just terrified of doing something like that, but shouldn't hold you back. I think a lot of people design their lives around the exception versus the rule, the 80-20 thing here, it's probably more like 99 one where 99% of your life, it works like this, but you're planning your life around the 1% That's something weird can happen. Right so question as well, who is that? To speak up. Michael mayo, go ahead. Talking about schedule that you were just talking out and the five hour work. My question is I was deciding about that. I need to figure out my schedule. And as a creative, I always had that feeling that we need eight hours or need as much time as I need because I'm going to sit on the computer at any time for inspiration and I need time to do things. And I found myself now growing my business, having work, coming that I have to work when my husband comes from home and after dinner, and I have to work from 8:00 to usually I'm doing from 8 to 2 a.m., sometimes very scary coming to the computer in and out. And I'm up at seven, so I talk to myself and I had to talk to my husband that what about those? You was like, hire a nanny while you work? And I'm like, well, we can only hire for like, maybe four hours. And I remember that, of the five hours intensive work for hour intensive work. Sorry and is that going to work? Should I do that? I'm and because I'm used to weekends as well, because the weekends when I have the whole day. And then all of us need a break, all of us need a self-care. My husband said, you need a self-care day in. And so how are we going to do this? That's the whole point. I just want to jump in because I'm exactly where you are. I'm trying to figure it out and I have. I had the same thing. I have a nanny in the other room and it's an employee that you now have to manage and they still need you for some things and you're never alone. And I think choosing to be for me, like a work at home mom, which is not a stay at home mom, it really feels like running a business where you're managing many, many different parts. And I feel like a lot of what I learned with the future about learning how to delegate and how to manage your time. I still feel like a frenetic, chaotic person in my head. But it's I don't think to me this work I do of like, just this day. Take care of your kids and just this day, take care of yourself and just say, take care of your clients. For me, at my stage in life, that wouldn't work. I can't compartmentalize like that, so I'm still trying to figure out the ideal situation. But maybe we'll connect after the parents unite. Let's talk about it. We need a solution because I feel like there is a way to hack this and crack and come up with a template the way that you have. OK OK, I want to talk about this. Plug it in here. OK, and your baby's adorable. It's like eating everything on sight. OK, so let's talk about this one. Is this it's like we have to start to evaluate how much, how many clients or projects we're managing at one time. So there's a couple of ways to make money, right? And if you want to make more money, you could. You could bring in bigger projects, more clients. You can also eliminate waste. I don't like eliminating waste because that makes me like an efficiency monger. And it's like, no, I want to bring in bigger clients. So now it's like if we say we're going to grow our business not by worrying about waste, but we're going to worry about how to grow our revenue. There's two ways to grow our revenue just do more projects or do fewer projects for more money. So which way am I going to choose? Well, I have a very simple formula in life. I want to do the least amount of work for the fewest number of people for the most amount of money. And if you do that, then you have less to manage, the less the delegate, less context switching, fewer interruptions. And so we have to start thinking about how can we attract clients that pay us more money. So we have to service fewer of them. We have to work towards that goal, right? So then if you say to yourself. I need to do three things today. These three things are going to really matter. And until I do these three things, I'm not going to do anything else. You'll find out that you can probably do them in half a day. To set those parameters, then be very clear about doing those three things so that you don't fall into this workaholic thing where. Let let me do that number thing four. Number five, number six, number seven, et cetera. You just stop there. So that requires some self-discipline to say, I'm going to get done. Or you could say to yourself, I'll do tomorrow's list today. But tomorrow I promise myself, I'm not going to do anything else. That's it. So let's work towards finding and proving our value to other people to acquire the knowledge that we need to. So that other people see us as valuable as we see ourselves to onboard fewer clients for more money. So it's not a volume game. And then to be self-disciplined enough to say, like, I'm going to do these three things today, and that's it. Once I finished that, I'm good to go. And I get to spend time with my kid. So quick follow up to that, Chris, I talked about that with my accountant, and he saw that as a very risky decision because if I lose one of those clients, I have a big problem and finding those high paying clients is very hard. So how do you mitigate that? Ok? of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard and you want it to be hard because otherwise there's a lot of competition for it, right? And then it brings the price down. So you want it to be hard because you were different, you were unique and you approve yourself and you're going to focus on this thing. So the other thing that you're saying is, well, what if I have a few high value clients? And what if one of them leaves me? Well, there's that one thing again. What if they. They acquire you as a company, there's a lot of positive what ifs. Why do we have to look at the negative what ifs? So here's the thing here's the low risk formula. Trade out to low paying clients for two higher paying clients and just keep trading them out, eventually, they're all going to become high paying clients and they're going to really value you, your time, your expertise, your vision. They're going to want that. So you don't have to go all a or b, there's a transitionary period that can work for you. So that you're not risking everything, Rachel. Is that ok? Got it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah so Blair's thing is you can only you're supposed to only work with 10 clients a year. 10 That's it. So you're going to get rid of two that suck and you know which ones those are, and you're going to replace them with two high paying clients. And if you say, well, the ones that pay the least are the ones that are most like soul enriching, it's just like my reason for living. There are clients just like them to just pay more fine those. And he takes risk to and I took one on Sunday on Mother's day, I had a meeting with a client that I had been having for a long time, and she came with a new endeavor and it's baking just like this is my this is going to be this is my life, and she's very professional. I like to work with her and I'm in that situation that, OK, I'm going to get a big job, so I double the price I charge. And I thought to myself, I'm going to add core to it, so I kind of justify to myself and I double it. And she called the next day and she was like, yes, I'm doing so, went back home and went overnight. Study for the meeting. The sun next. So I think it takes that it takes. And I did because I was like my time now really for me to sit working. It's going to have to be worth it. And I just risk it. And I sold something I haven't learned yet, and I went nice. So I was so stoked and and thank you all for it. Thank you, Chris, for giving me that courage. Yes, I love that you get into a little hot water, then you figure it out later. That's just my life motto right there. It's like, I don't know what I'm doing. You agree to do this. Let me figure out how to do it right after I sold it to you. Fantastic Yes. So it's always that game, right? I'm going to level up and that pressures us to level up. Nothing like a real deadline on a client. So you learn that thing that you've always wanted to learn. Exactly so I think if you get rid of the small paying clients, Rachel, just do it. It opens room in the universe for the big ones to come. Just go for it. OK you can send Rachel the Shia labeouf meme that he's on the green screen. Just do it. Or, as I say, bucket. Well, you don't have to go. All right. Whatever works. Sorry just fudge it. Fudge it. That's right. Yeah, there's something to that where you have a detachment or emotional detachment to what you're working on or this client. And if they provide feedback that you don't really like or they drop you or your pitching to a client and they don't decide to go with you, you're like, well, whatever, move on to the next one, it really doesn't. Having that mentality helps having that in different helps. That way, you're not emotionally invested because if you're emotionally invested in it, it's a no and you're bummed out and you're not going to be your bummed out for the rest of the week and you're not working on anything that does some serious damage. So having an indifference to the clients and also even like for me, having a difference to people commenting on like commenting on my stuff or, you know, sharing or talking to me or if they're providing, you know, if there's some haters and trolls, it's like, yeah, you know what? I don't really care. So what? And that really, I think thinking that way made me a lot happier. I'm not bummed out, and it's harder to make me feel that way now because I just removed my emotional abilities with my business and all the things that I'm doing with my personal stuff. I'm like, yeah, you know what? Screw it, let's go try it and we'll see what happens. And people forget that everybody is still figuring things out, and I like to use that towards my advantage. OK, I think Paul has his hand up. Paul I, yeah, I thought one of the things that spoke to me from the book as well was they're talking about waste when it comes to documenting things and also about doing reports. So I think we touched on it before when talk about pricing as well, about not having to have a huge report when you talk about how your pricing and its quote was the illusion of agreement. I thought that was quite a nice quote. So you have this document and everyone thinks it means something else. Well, when you have investors, you have to create reports and that will slow you down. And when you have big, bloated teams, people find security in reports, right? And we've talked about this, I think, in that a lot of us read the data in the way that we want to read it to just strengthen our position and our belief. So there's should be a little suspicious when people are reading you data. Yeah OK. Anything else on the book or this? Should we move on? There is one concept that I liked it was talking about taking. It was kind of like chunking what you were talking about, but they were saying, take a big business idea, try and figure out how to launch it in two weeks. So what would you remove? What would be the things that you absolutely had to cut if you had to launch this business or this product in two weeks from now? I think that's pretty, pretty cool. Thought exercise? Yeah if you have to launch in two weeks, what has to be in it and prioritize? So you guys could use that same thinking, that same question on your own business, because let's face it, a lot of you guys in this group have been talking about doing something for a really, really long time. And you're great about opining about this or jumping on it, but then. If you had to do whatever it is you're supposed to do in two weeks, what would it look like? Like, why is that landing page up? Why hasn't that product beta or not launched yet? What is taking us so long now? Some people reminded me think, thank you people, that I was going to award a one hour consultation to somebody who is the most successful at launching their knowledge product. But then I just did a quick check on this. How many people have launched? I think two people have launched maybe three. There were a lot more of you guys participating in this. And so what has happened? So would this be a race between two or three people or what? What happened, we did four calls on this, I believe. So let's adopt that two week mentality, like if you had to launch your knowledge product in two weeks, just the landing page. Now get in the landing page requires a video, it requires mock UPS, it requires the description, but you don't actually have to build it because this could be a pre or pre-launch thing that you're offering. I think you could even make it even more simple, just start with an email and your Google spreadsheet. You don't even have to make a landing page and just find people that would be interested in whatever product that you're going to be making or offering. Yeah, that's going to be tough, though that is really tough with people who don't have an audience. Yeah, but there's a few things that I wrote from rework that I want to mention. And he says, start making something. And Mason, you said thought exercises? Well, I think we all do too many thought exercises. What if we actually do or have an action exercise? Do exercise because what you do is what matters. And there's another thing what you do is your legacy. But going back to or combining the two things, so creating and launching your knowledge product share, you could go and make a really nice landing page. But sometimes and if you don't have an audience but sometimes like having a really simple method and approach of just going out there and just direct messaging somebody on Facebook or emailing somebody or on LinkedIn, it's like, hey, I see that you're struggling with this. Would you be open to something like this product with this? Make your life easier. And I think just doing something, making a small step, not thinking about, oh, I got to go create this video for my sales page, I got to create the copy for. That's all valid. It's you'll get to that point eventually, but just do something like something small and you can literally start with a Google spreadsheet and not even email. You could just go on LinkedIn and just start messaging people. Sure, it be harder and it'll take some time to grow that audience, but you're actually doing something that makes you different from everybody that's thinking about making a product. You're actually going out and finding audiences to validate your product and get people interested in your product. Look, everybody can interpret this differently. Give yourself a two week deadline. Get something done. Period That's it. I don't care. So I know, Mason said. It's a thought experiment, but it's not a thought experiment. Give yourself a freaking two week deadline and just do it, no matter how crappy you think it looks or feels, or it's not an accurate reflection of all that you're capable of doing. That doesn't matter. Do something, whatever it is, that's the secret everybody wants to know. Like some secret sauce is like the secret sauce. You got to actually take action. You have to do something. OK, who else? Yo, I got a question. Go ahead, Mo. It's in relation to meetings and having them effectively, aside from that kind of list of things that you've got to do. What are some best practices that you deploy to have good team meetings to where people feel that they have room to be heard and speak, whether it's in facilitation groups like this or at the future? Well, I don't know if I have the perfect answer for you, imo, one is you have to create space to say that if you have an idea, if you can contribute to this, please do that. And then you have to make sure that people don't immediately attack it and tear it down. But giving people space to speak, it's also a dangerous idea if you don't have some guidelines on what you can talk about. So some, some rules is whatever you bring up has to be connected to the subject of the agenda that we put up so that you don't bring up other things and derail the conversation that what you say has to contribute to the dialogue and not be a tear down. So the using of the word and versus, but like, here's how I can make it work better. And we struggle with this at the office today because everybody is very strongly opinionated. So we wind up arguing a lot about stuff. Sometimes that's good arguing, and sometimes it's very destructive. It really is, because then somebody will say what? That can't be done. So one of the rules I tried to impose is, I don't care how crazy the ideas don't say anything unless you can figure out how to do it as improbable as it is. Use all your creative mind to try to figure out how to do it, even if you don't like the idea. Because oftentimes the best ideas that we have are two iteration cycles away from the original suggestion. So somebody comes in with half baked idea that's not even thought out, that it's not even clearly articulated. And then it gets slaughtered because there is like, so what's the big idea? So that's a very negative approach. So if you're able to reframe it, it's like, let me think about that. Like, how can we make that better? And we can explore it for a little bit before we just say, let it die. And so this will encourage people to speak up, because my feeling is that we are all walking around with two parts of a puzzle that it's incomplete when you hold it up. But somebody else may have the other part that makes it complete. But we can't do this unless we offer up different parts. And it's tough because I have this super sharp personality where somebody says something like, that's stupid. So I have to fight myself too. So like, I don't have the perfect answer. I can tell you theoretically what it looks like. But the application is super tough now, usually you have a moderator, a person that's in the room that has no skin in the game. So they can check somebody like myself and say, Chris, I think you're like, you're influencing the dialogue right now. I'm like, oh, shoot, sorry, my bad, but I'm the moderator and the guy who's running it and the setting up the agenda. So there's a lot of conflict there, mom. Oh, my God. Oh, sorry, sorry. Go ahead in the follow up. What do you think about meeting versus email? Because I'm just starting a business with three different people and we end up having long meetings, so we swapped to emails, but that's taking even longer time to discuss things via email. And then I end up like answering for 1 and 1/2 hour because there are so many issues to discuss. So what's more productive and what's the quickest way to do that? How? I don't know. Sorry I'll tell you why, I don't know, it's a very good question. It's a very good question because I'm using it and I'm also usually not responding to any of the emails. So I saw Matthew's face earlier. Maybe Matthew can speak to that. Let's see if he's still listening because I saw him driving into the office, I think. Yeah, I've struggled with that for years. People that want to have long conversations via text messaging like we could have done this in 2 minutes on the phone. Yeah, so the problem is, is that when I show up in office, people feel compelled to bring up every little issue to me. There's Matthew, every little issue, all the time, so then I can get any work done. That's why I'm like, I'll just stay home. Matthew yeah, we listen to that. Yeah, Yeah. So my two cents on that email is good because it allows people to have time to put together their thoughts in a concise way to communicate it to you. But not everyone is great at writing, so that's the problem there. And as soon as there's two people who want to jump in on one topic, then it becomes very complicated to follow the chain of. Well, he said this, and she said that. So that's where it all falls apart very quickly. Where in person? What's good about that is at least you can hash stuff out very quickly. What we try to do as managers and kind of smaller teams within the group at the future is we have our own smaller teams that we try and discuss stuff beforehand, just like how Moe does with the groups on Tuesdays to try and surface some of the most poignant things to bring up when Chris is in the room so that when we have a managers meeting between me, Chris. Ben, mark and Greg, we could just talk about more high level stuff that things that have already been discussed and we already have some momentum going behind it. So there's a lot of processing that has gone on before it meets the kind of like the stakeholder meeting so that our conversations can be a little bit more productive where we can present either research or insights that we've come up with since we last spoke a week ago or two weeks ago. I don't know if that helps the situation or not. That helps, that helps a bit. But still, it feels like there is a certain structure and A levels levels state levels of decisions. But maybe I like the idea what Chris said, if you don't have an idea of how to do it. Maybe I just don't bring it up. Maybe, maybe. Do I say that, monica? That's what. No let me clarify. I mean, that's half of the message. I just want to be clear. People hear different things when I say so, I must be doing a poor job of communication. I wanted to bring up. Here's the point I think there's two kinds of meetings when we have these meetings. One is expansive thinking meetings where we're dreaming up bigger ideas and the whole mindset that you have to adopt is yes, and that comes from improv where you're just adding on. But oh, Matthew went robot voice, saying you can't shoot anything down, you turn off your robot voice on top of the idea. So I think connection is very low. Yeah, there you go. There we go. OK, so there's two kinds of meetings planning where you're doing the Yes and end mentality, where you just adding on to people's ideas. You can't shoot anything down. So those meetings, it's very important that everybody is there to contribute to see how you can make the idea as big as possible and keep working on it until it becomes a complete idea. Then, after those types of meetings, once you have a kind of a direction to move forward, then there's executional meetings where you take that idea and you challenge it, you break it down. It's like, well, how might we do that? Where is this going to fall apart? And this is where the friction happens between like me, Ben and Chris, where we'll get in a room will argue about something for an hour. But on the other side, then we have something that's very clear, something we can execute on and something that's going to be solid by the time it reaches its desired audience. So I think there's two styles of meetings that you might have to adopt. So if there's vision planning and you're thinking about innovation for a particular sector or part of your company, then have it highly focused, figure out what the challenge is and keep it as clear as possible. Then there are other meetings where now you have to execute that and just break it down so that you can get very tactical there. OK, Mo, follow up. We got to wrap this call, we have four more minutes here. Yes, the follow up is Matt Watt and maybe Matt can chime in on this too. What practice is do you take in these meetings when it's not just the managers like this group here where? And maybe sometimes with your client meetings where people that may not be outspoken have a chance to speak, and some, like certain people, aren't dominating the conversation, whether that be a CEO or like an over spoken person. That's the follow up. What are some best practices there? Should everyone be heard? Should everyone be given an opportunity to speak? How do you facilitate that to create a positive, communicative experience for the group? OK, I'm going to hold on to that thought, and that is your thing based on this or something totally different. Something totally different. OK, I'm going to get to you. So before we end this call, I got to get to you because I see your handles up for some time, ok? Should everybody heard? Should everybody contribute? Yes, if they have something to contribute. I don't want to create the environment where everybody feels compelled to say something just to fill space. Sometimes this happens when I will say something in a meeting and then someone will say the exact same thing again. I'm like, well. I don't. What do you want me to do with that piece of information, you just basically said the same thing, so let's try to figure out a way for you to do this, and this is a lot trickier than we can solve in 2 minutes here. All right. And if you're having an issue where somebody is dominating the conversation, you can put a timer. You know, those little sand timers, you have 1 minute. There 1 minute timers and you just whatever you want to say. So that's it, so they don't hog all the time. And you can do that. So that'll force people to organize your thoughts and then communicate it clearly, and you're not necessarily just singling out one person like you guys. We want to keep the meetings going, keep everything you say under 1 minute and you have until the end of this timer to finish. That way, everybody who wants to add something can, so they're not intimidated by it. OK and if I'm the facilitator, I'm pretty good at reading body language and facial expressions, so somebody grimaces or they lean in. I think Sally wants to say something. Bob wants to say something. So as soon as they're done, I'm like, Sally, did you want to say something, bob? Did you want to contribute in a way? So I give them space to say something, and I want to make sure, especially if their personality is, they're very timid, that I in a way make sure that nobody stands the idea and kills it on the spot because that would discourage them from speaking up next time. OK OK, Matt, go ahead, you get the last word. So the question I've got relates to just reading books in general, I was watching the product or listening to the product Breakfast Club podcast, and they were talking about a researcher saying that reading wasn't necessarily the best way to learn content and just this idea that you read something. And typically a week or two later, you remember a few concepts, but you don't really remember a lot of information. And so what I sort of noticed is there's a scaffolding that happens to paraphrase your concepts where you read one book and you understand some of it, then you read another book and you understand a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. And you get to this point where the next time you read the first book, this whole world opens to you. That's completely different than what you recalled before. What's your experience with that? And do you have any sort of hacks for that sort of stuff? So I teaching it is one way like, read it like you're going to teach it, but that's a lot of time, a lot of energy for every single book you read. So are there any hacks beyond just teaching it, you know, trying to teach it? That's a super awesome question that you're asking, and I'm going to spend the time to talk about this with you. OK, so those guys have the bell. I'm sorry, we're going to continue this. And then eventually this call gets edited and we will share it because I love talking about this. So for me, it's never been about a volume game. It's about an understanding game. And if I read a book, we have to make a decision because it's interesting because I'll have this conversation with a friend of mine. He's like, I love this book, and I and I would say to him, I hated that book. I started reading. I just was not getting into it at all, because the style in which it's written, the way it's presented, the author's tone, voice and all that kind of stuff, if it works for you, then dig into it. So you have to make a decision. Is this book even written for a person like me? Was the promise of the content from the title delivered in the book itself? And you can find out pretty quickly, like reading fiction if you're engrossed in the story and you want to know what the next steps are. It's probably written for you, and if you're not, that's totally OK. So I would abandon the book and I've done this where I'll start reading a book. I'm like, I'm not feeling that they're using too many words. They're saying the same thing over and over again. It's just they're insulting my intelligence. I'm the kind of person that thinks Marty numinous book zag or the brand flip or something like that is a perfectly written book. The reason is, there's so few words in it that the words that he chooses to share with you. Are going to hit me, and he includes diagrams and illustrations to explain complex ideas. Hence, let's go back to the recipe when we read a recipe, book a cookbook, it's like it's really pretty clear what you're supposed to do. So I like a combination of high level thinking, a couple of really good stories in there, some research, things I didn't know and potentially some kind of framework or prompt to go do something with that. That's the ideal combination for me, so I will take time to read it. For example, this is marketing. I'm about 75% done with this book, and the reason why I'm still only 75% is I'll read a little bit and I have to think about it. Like, what did I read? What is he really trying to say? And if I don't understand it? I have to reread it and I'll reread it before I finish the book to make sure I understand the concept. And if I don't like it on the second read or a second look, I'm going to stop reading it. I'm going to bin and ship. It's not written for me. So you guys have to make that determination, is this book written for me? And if you can read it, the Harkness method, and I think I mentioned this on the last call is about reading books in a very specific way. And they're teaching you how to read, which is fascinating because I've never been taught how to read, and it seems crazy that somebody has to teach you how to read. So the very next book I need to read is a book called How to Read. My wife was looking at it. She's like, this is a really good book. So how to ask questions, how to read these are like so fundamental to what it is that we're trying to do as strategists, as conceptual thinkers that I think it warrants some time to read. So that'll be on my next to do list. OK, so Matt, is there anything else I can answer about that, like the idea of reading five books to circle back to the first book? That's a lot of time and energy. I would just stop the first book if I don't get something from it. Got you. Yeah, I think some of it is just the issue of don't know what you don't know. Yeah and so you read something, and so you take a little bit away from it the next time you read it. Obviously, take away more. The other issue that I ran into was I was using audible at 2x, and while I did get a lot of content, I wasn't retaining a lot of content. And then it's kind of hard to teach it as well to go back and sort of write notes and track it. So yeah, that's why audible audible books don't work for me because I'm a visual learner. I know that about myself. If I see the word spelled, I can, I now know how it's spelled. But if somebody says it to me, I'm like, my brain can't figure it out. Like, what is that word? I don't? Am I hearing this right? So I need to look it up and see the letters and how they're connected, and I need to do things with my hands. There's a lot of people who believe in this, that when you write with a pen or pencil, it adds an extra sensory kind of observation or just recording that you remember it differently than if you were just to see it. So we know in the learning pyramid to hear something, to see it, to hear and see it, and then to do something and then to teach it the deepest way that you can learn is by teaching it. So my brain, when I'm reading something, is how do I turn this into a framework? What's like a really good high level quote? Or how can I use some of this in my next talk? Like, what is it? And I remember recently, when I was doing a talk, I was like, really stressed out because I was writing a new talk and I thought, why don't I just base my talk on one key idea I remember from each book that I read? So it forced me to think like, OK, in that book, what was the most important thing? And it's this. So then I do remember it. That was good. Austin Cleon is another great writer in terms of how I like to read because his books are like this. Right now, I want to contrast that with somebody else. David Breyer wrote this book on branding. And it it literally feels like 53 tweets in it, and there's not enough depth in it. That there's this big idea, I think. But like, what if I need to dig a little bit deeper beyond that? So there's a fine line, right between a book about tweets or an encyclopedia, and my speed is somewhere towards the left, but not all the way to the left. OK, Matt, is there anything else you want to talk about that or another question or follow up or something or anybody that wants to talk about this so I can close this part out? Matt, if you haven't read this book, it's been really helpful. Ok? and I think a lot of grad programs kind of have it as a prerequisite. And I don't know if it's the book that Chris is recommending, but basically it's just different types of reading or different levels of reading. So any time you attack a book, first thing is table of contents. So you know what the content is and you're kind of prepping your brain for whatever it is, and some are obscure, but some are pretty descriptive if you're reading non-fiction. And then just goes into deeper levels of reading. So most of the time you're not doing it word for word reading, like, you know, digesting every single word you're kind of skimming through to get the main ideas and you do have that. I guess it's similar to the teaching sort of reading to teacher or learning to teach, but you're searching for something. When you're searching for something specific, then you'll your brain will gather other stuff, but your brain is kind of a search mode. And so you're open, you're kind of primed for learning. So if you haven't picked it up, it's a long book, but you don't have to read all of it and kind of teaches you about different levels of reading. Cool that book is excellent. I read that, like in my early twenties, it's kind of set the groundwork for a lot of how I learn a bunch of things since then. The author of the book, don't call it, that also did one called How to Write an email, which I purchased haven't read yet, but a little bit that I do know about it. It's along the same lines. OK, I want to talk about that in a second. So the book that I bought, it's called How to Read a book. The classic guide to intelligent reading by Mortimer j. Adler is that the same book that you're holding up and Charles Van doren? Here's the link. Oops yeah, that's the one, that's the one. OK yeah, my wife was reading that she's like, this is really good. I'm like, OK, I'll need to read that. Now I want to say this. Those are you guys are. Read the book, how to call it or don't call it that. Did you learn how to name stuff by reading that book? Philip, I actually haven't I actually haven't read it. It's on my list. OK I mean, what I know of it is from the video that you did, OK, OK, so someone who's read the book, who's read the book, I have recently. OK I actually used a kind of an amalgam of that. Some of the exercises out of that book, as well as just some hodgepodge workshops from a bunch of other things like design sprint to name our recent game for a platform. So it was actually pretty successful. It was pretty quick. Anybody else read the book? I have an opinion on that book. Yeah, I have the same experience as Brian, like I followed it and it went perfectly. Klein was really happy, so. OK, great. All right. I read the book. I think it's pretty decent. It's not great in terms of like, wow, I feel like I can teach this to somebody now. So when somebody understands their own process and a creative process as naming and they can actually distill that down to something that you can actually do yourself or apply to other things, that's an incredible teacher. I think there was just some nice considerations in it. Actually, there was that one thing about looking at your heritage, which inspired my company name. So it was nice to just have a few like tiny little tidbits, even though it was just kind of OK in some areas. Yeah, I think he's excellent at naming. Is he an excellent teacher at naming? Maybe not yet. I think I'd give that book like an 83% rating on 100% scale, like worth your while worth the 16 bucks or whatever it cost to buy it. Matthew, you want to say something? No, I guess the only thing that I'm taking away from this is I feel like this concept is sort of like being a martial artist that when you're a Brown belt or Black belt, it's a lot easier to learn new techniques once you've mastered a bunch of other techniques. And so you have this sort of vocabulary in your mind of concepts that it just makes it easier to pick up new concepts. So it's almost like there maybe needs to be this sort of list of six books or 10 books. Read these first. You'll probably get to this point where you're that Brown belt, and then you can start reading all these other books and then go back and read the first six. That's a good suggestion. I also think if you were to list the five books that you thought were the greatest books in terms of what you learned, and then we can see patterns of what kind of books you like and we can recommend that. So I think people who like those same five books, this is like Amazon talking, right? We can recommend other books that are like those books. Mm-hmm So there's no coincidence that I've referred to Blair and probably more than any other author in than Jim rohn, because the way they write, it's really reductive. And it's like just the fewest number of words to describe a concept with enough depth and research that I feel like I totally get it. And so those are my gold standards for people who write books. So if that resonates with you and you're like, yeah, I like those books too. Then when I recommend a different book, you might like it too, because I'm not going to recommend this other book where? It didn't work for me. OK OK. Yeah OK. Anybody else on this whole reading and books and learning martial arts? I like that analogy that you pulled out there. I'd like to add something. OK, go ahead. Yeah so there's one thing that I realized that was a problem for me. And I think is for many people. And that is the problem that the education system instills in people that you have to finish a book when you start reading it and that if you don't read every single word and every single chapter in the book, you didn't actually read the book. So this was something that really kept me away from reading for a very long time. And in the last couple of years, I read more books than I've read probably before in my 2007 years before that. But I approach every single book with like a lens of what I expect from that book and what I want to get from that. And for example, when I read books now, I look for something that I can use for presentations. So anything that I can get out of any book a concept that I can apply then to presentation strategy. And I think that just letting go that idea that you have to finish a book and not just throw it away if you don't like it after the first chapter or it doesn't resonate with you and you feel like this is a gold standard, it has to be read. I think just removing that barrier can help people read more. And actually, I mean, when you think about it, how many books there are, there's no way that you can read them in your lifetime. Even the suggestions, like a top 100 books you have to read, you're not going to be able to finish them all in your lifetime. So you have to set your priorities and you have to know why you're reading and what you want to get from that. Right I think that's an excellent point. When you get what you need, you can stop. You don't have to feel like you finished reading the book. When we were talking to Seth, he's like, I read, you know, $100 a week or whatever. He says, he's just some ridiculous amount. So how is that possible? It's like basically when I get the idea, I stop reading. Because you'll see that most books, I think there's a psychology, if the book is too thin or the typekit is too big, it must not be a good book. So I think authors tend to like, say, things over and over again. Now you guys have heard me talk about dotcom secrets, the Russell Brunson book, right? It's not a well-written book, but there are good ideas in it. If you're new to funnel marketing that sort of thing. He's got a lot of templates in there, but he goes over it over and over and over again. It's like, Oh my god, I'm just my. My brain is going to melt. But that doesn't mean that there were not good concepts in there that the concepts I was able to learn from and I shared them with you as soon as I learned them. So I think that's an excellent point, love. You don't need to read the whole book. Read what you can. If you feel like you've learned something, you could just move on.

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