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Website Critiques & Discussion

#
103
Greg Gunn
Published
November 26, 2019

Designing work for the internet can be a challenge. Greg Gunn and Pro Members have a great discussion about design principles and accessibilities.

Read Transcript
Good afternoon good evening, everyone, wherever you are dialing in from. Yeah, nice to see you. Cool I see hand waving, so that means you guys can hear me and hopefully you can see me too. Hey, my name is Greg Gunn. You probably don't see me a whole lot on the future channel, but I am around. I've done a handful of these pro calls before, and the reason I'm here today is because almost our entire company is traveling in one form or another, kind of like scattered across the country right now. And I'm the lucky one. Well, Aaron and I want my co-host or the lucky ones. They get to stay behind because we have way too much to work on. Speaking of work on today's topic is going to be websites, and we're going to take a look at a handful that people have shared kind of go over them together. I don't want to say critique, but maybe review and just kind of open up the discussion. And the reason I wanted to do this is because if you've never been to the future, it's a lovely place to be. But the website is leaves a lot to be desired. So we're actually in the process right now of just nuking it and completely and utterly rebuilding it from scratch. That'll be fun. And yeah, I mean, it is, and it will be. But it's a challenge and we're actually making a kind of mini documentary about it. So we're recording a lot of our meetings, like internally with us and Chris, different opinions. And, you know, as creative folks who are professional, you know, designers, I dare say it's really hard to do it for yourself. It's really, really hard. You know, you just don't have that, that kind of outsider perspective. So to keep things topical with that, I thought, well, let's take a look at what everyone else is up to. And I was pleased to see that a few people were like, hey, yeah, I'm reworking my site to. That was a good time. So I think that's great, and I should also say, you know, I want to look at all the sites through the lens of marketing efforts and even art direction and just kind of fundamental UX/UI things. You know, we can touch on seo, but that's a to be honest, that's a rabbit hole. I'm not prepared to go down. But I do want to keep the conversation open, but that's sort of how I want to. I want to frame things. So before, you know, hopefully like a few people have come in by now, too. But before we really jump in, I want to, first of all, thank you for joining us and also welcome anyone new to the Pro group. And I'm curious, is there anyone on the call here who's like doing this for the first time with your very first call? Oh, hey, Rachel, nice to see you and thank you for joining us. Yeah, it's good to be here. I did the bootcamp this January and it took me a little while to get into the program, but I'm here now right on. Oh, OK, well, if you did the bootcamp, yeah, you're good. You're going to be just fine here at the bootcamp. That's something else entirely. Right on. Welcome aboard. Thanks good to be here. And any other first timers? Not a curiosity. All right. Nothing, but that's I get it. That's OK. There's someone else have I don't know how to say his last name, but he said in the chat he's new to, oh, there is. Hey yeah, I'm going to say loud, but I'm sorry. I promise. Pronounce it loud. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. Oh, another one! OK, crystal, the hook up today. That's that's all good. Listen in. Enjoy it. You can always watch us later, too. But yeah, welcome. Nice to see you or hear you read you, whatever, whatever you have. Very cool. All right. Well, OK, I think it's like we're five minutes and I think we're ready to go. So I will be your host, Greg, I'll tell you a little bit about myself because I'm sure some of you like, who is this guy? Why are you talking to me? But before I do that, my co-host, you might and will probably recognize and Aaron from our YouTube channel. Aaron, you want to say, what's up, everyone? Hello good morning, everyone. I am here for the first time. Also, I guess I should have said that I'm just going to be helping Greg and taking notes. And yeah, that's it. Right on, yeah, thank you for waking up so early, Aaron. I don't know what time you use it, this is really for me, so it's a little early too, but it's good. Right on. All right, cool. So everyone. Welcome, new people. Yeah, my name is Greg. So I guess to give you just a kind of brief intro about who I am and what I do in the future. I come from really like a kind of design and animation world, so I went to design school, paid too much for it, got out and here I am myself. Sound familiar. I've been working and have known Chris for forever. So probably like 14 years now or something in various capacities. Initially, he was my teacher and then I started a business right out of school and he became sort of like a business mentor. We would swap, you know, industry stories, and at some point I closed my business. And then I came to work for Chris. And that blind at the time. And yeah, the past few years as a teacher has really kind of gained momentum and steam. We've all kind of transitioned to that business. And though we wear many hats. My my strong suit is, I feel like really in kind of like creative direction. That's what I've been doing most of my life. That includes websites, videos and all kinds of stuff like that. So the plan today is I have a brief list of sites I want to take a look at, and I want to give priority to the people who are here with us on the call because I think we can have more of a discussion about it versus like just looking at it in a vacuum. And if you have any questions along the way, put them in chat, Aaron. And we'll be kind of monitoring that. And then we can address those and talk about those. And then if we run out of sites to look at, I'm totally fine opening it up to more of, you know, just like a creative direction am to because there's a ton I can say about that if anyone has more like, open ended question. So before we dive in. Anyone have any questions upfront? I want to start with. All right. I saw Chelsea for us to question here. I've been talking to a lot of developers recently about balance between well-designed website and a website that performs well in searches. They usually don't go hand in hand. Are we going to touch on that today at all? Oh, yeah, OK. That's a good question, Chelsea. Yeah, that's something we're currently struggling with to. Yeah, I think we can touch on that a little bit. Let's let's if you don't mind. Let's hang on to that question kind go through a few of these sites and we might find that we answered along the way. But but if not, let's absolutely circle back to it. Cool OK, so let's see. Let's see. I'm going to start at the top. So if anyone's here, if I say your name, just let me know. So that way we can look through your site and have a little context for what we're looking at. So the first one I have and forgive me if I'm mispronouncing anyone's name is Brian McDonald. Go, hey. All right. What's good, man? Nice to see you. Good morning, or afternoon or wherever. So, OK, you shared a site. It's called the live and I'll pull it up here in a second. So you guys can see my screen here. I'll also put it in the chat so everyone else can take a look if they like. But do you want to give us a little context for the goals for this site? Yeah so we are currently so I'm not going to go into the product because I kind of want people to. I want to find out if people actually understand what we're selling. So this is a new proprietary technology that is on top of an app that we do. And it's, yeah, you'll see it in a second. So this is actually the first website that we've done using a design sprint, which has been actually it was kind of a weird bastardization of. A very quick pivot to core and then a lot of stuff from the design sprint, so basically we had a strategy session. And one day I turn this around and like five hours the next day, Wow and then grabbed a bunch of video. Yeah, so this is using web flow. It's basically we turned it around in like a day afterward. Then we use tested it with a few users. Did the whole wall of justice thing went through? This is the stuff people don't get. We did a bunch of refinements, so that was like last week. And now we are using design sprints to expand to other pages. We've only got one page right now that in the contact page. So but we will be expanding to other pages as we go along, but I am interested to know. Beyond the relatively shitty aesthetic, does it make sense? Can people understand what we're trying to do? So that's why I put that up there. OK, all right. I like that. So the task is really this is kind of a unique app or technology that lives over an app, as you said. And the ask is when you land on the site, do you understand what you're looking at? That that would be it. OK, all right, so here are the links in chat, guys, but I'm also going to share my screen. So let's see work. OK, you guys see a Chrome window now that makes sense. OK yeah, Yeah. All right. And I'm also I'm going to. What can I resizes now? Let me. OK all right. So OK. The cue live game network. Oh, this reminds me of HQ. I used to be totally addicted to that. That would be pretty fair. That would be a fair assessment. We fast followed two weeks after HQ. Oh Wow. OK we built the we built the original app out of a bar like three to five. Nice I mean, like, I think it's like the cue. I'm like, oh, cute, it's cute. That kind of help. OK, so get contact. All right. Boost your app. Engagement with live interactivity. Media companies want to engage our audience interactive platform, bringing you customized. OK purchases by world class brands. OK, so you sort of open with it's almost like a live demo and then you kind of explain literally what it is, what they call to action, which is Contact us. Then you prove some value by showing clients who use it. Possible solution for any partner. OK, so the app performance solution? OK, cool. Kit Kat is reliable streaming. OK And then what if contact us, do you want to see? Takes you to form. OK the industry got it, got it, all right. So all right. Again, I think I'm going to look at this through a marketing and art direction lens. So in terms of marketing, do I understand what it is? A little bit boost your app engagement media companies. OK, so interactive platform, right? I think the one thing that might be missing for me is, oh, OK, I know you're going to get it down here. Yeah, this is good. One, two three. So reliable streaming technology I might consider explaining how it works just a touch more. I should also say these are all just my opinions, and I'm like, I've not looked at any of the sites before since it's kind of like, what is this? What is my gut reaction here? Sure having been familiar with hq, I think it's a little easier for me to understand. But if you're not familiar with that, it might be a little confusing, just like fundamentally what it is you're offering. I like all the sections that you have in place like, you know, T-Mobile Massa EE three. These are freaking great clients. You know, brands that have on board. Sure yeah, I think maybe even having a video explaining or some sort of testimonial, like if you have these great brands on board, like some kind of testimonial might help. I think I just need like one example of how would I use this for my business in the simplest form? You know, like one whole section just dedicated to like and this is how a business would use it. Like you have the yeah, like the Mavs trivia takeover. That's great. And maybe it's just sort of sectioning things out like this is one of the things we're running into with our website is we have a lot of information and we might be trying to cram too much into one section at a time. So like, that's my gut reaction is like, I'm familiar with hq, so I get it. But if I'm not, I might. I might have more questions before I action. An example would help. So, OK, from an art direction standpoint. I think this type down here kind of I like it. I think it's great. I think it hangs a little low in the frame like I'm trying to resize my browser. Here we go. So if I'm on a laptop, oh, OK, I'm on a laptop. Actually, it looks a lot better. It would be more like this, right? OK also, you can read the type, for the most part, it's pretty good, the video is kind of dark. You might lose some people with this like paragraph of copy here, just legibility. Size wise, it's something to consider. I like that sort of like know pinkish red is the Super bright and obvious, and it's really clear to me what you want me as a user to do on this page, you want me to contact you after figuring out what you have to offer here and if it's a good fit? I think a simple way to up you're kind of like client quilt here is maybe breaking it up into two rows and you probably want to refine the scale and placement of the logos. Typically, you want them to kind of occupy the same amount of, I guess in this case, it would be like vertical space. So it's like, oh, wow, OK. I just noticeable, though, but it was so tiny I didn't. I didn't immediately recognize it, even there. Sure and that's like, that's great. I would also maybe put your most recognizable clients, you know, toward the middle top rows like the T-Mobile stuff like that. Yeah, just sort of, you know, some like gritting out of logos might help a little bit. If there's too many wacky colors going on, a lot of things you can do or make them just kind of monochrome. That sort of helps normalize, but I understand you also want them to be recognizable, and that includes, you know, like massive blue and stuff like that. So I mean, you see these everywhere you can just find one and sort of copy it, but you know what they're doing. Yeah, and I think this is great information here, it's just sort of really dense. So I would consider, you know, you could even split this like 50 and then copy on the other and have it sort of like. Go through each one of these, you know, or you could stack them and like ping pong at left and right them on the page, but maybe something just to break this up just seems a little kind of compressed on the page. Yeah, that way you can maybe really call out like what's happening on the screen. And if you wanted to have an animation on the screen. So like what the app looks like as it's being used, you're not like, you don't know, we're planning to be like, all this shit, OK, I had five hours. Oh, no, no, no, I love. I love hearing it, though. So I mean, whether it's confirmation or just kind of improving elsewhere, yeah, it's good to hear that there's some things that we're kind of planning on doing that. That other people are seeing. Yeah, I think, you know, other than that, there's times where there's kind of like really big gaps between information like the five part here. All of a sudden like. Seems like the website disappeared or something, you know? Yeah, I mean, and it's need whitespace spacing is good. We like spacing. But yeah, like if I'm here for some reason, it just looks like all of a sudden I've lost everything. And you know, like, I don't know. There may be too much spacing at some point. Like, yeah, and it's just like, this is where it gets weird, this is all. Here's OK because I start to see it, but then like, so maybe it's like. I'm not sure that I'm not sure, maybe it's just like too much white space over on the left here above introducing because I think above the mockup you have is great. You want that kind of space. These are just kind of just kind of real time throwing out my thoughts and like, why did that happen? Production ok? Your app do like this. This, to me, feels like some important technical need. Or if I'm someone who wants to get my boss on board with using this and like, OK, this is what this is, the explanation they're going to ask me for. Right? OK, so it's streaming. I get it. So what if I don't understand what these things mean? Can you help me out a little bit? And I think that's more about presentation of information. Again, like these are totally things we are struggling with right now to too. Like, we're redoing our sales pages and we have all this information. And it's like, we don't want to hide it behind cascading menus or anything like that. We don't want to overwhelm people. So what is the best way to? Yeah, Yeah. So we initially had a technical diagram and I mean, we ran it in front of like a bunch of sales dudes and stuff like that. And a lot of them just understood some of it. And then once we got to that tech point, it's like, oh, this is kind of weird. So to find that balance between. What basically, how do you get from A to B like technology wise and then not intimidate somebody because we want to put a page in there that you actually drill in and has all the case? Well, so like the Nassar case study, the technology, how we use it specifically, as well as maybe given a place for developers, some of our devs to put out some information and stuff about what kind of crazy shit that they're doing. Yeah, no, I get it. It's finding that balance between informing and too much technical jargon, which is going to fly over people's heads and kind of lose them. OK, I'm looking through tat here and just to see if anyone else have some reactions. And it seems like a handful of people, you know, like video auto playing in the background. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, designing for the internet is something we have not gone through other browser testings and things like that yet. So there's a lot of optimization and stuff. Yeah, that's a good that's a good call, actually, especially when it's kind of early. You only have a couple of pages, but I forget the name of the service. But we use one for client work all the time. And it's essentially like place subtle things like a monthly fee or something. But you submit a link and they'll essentially give you scroll through your entire site on all kinds of different browsers, and it makes it a little kind of easier to secure that stuff. OK yeah, Yeah. Here in Paris. All right. That was a good call. I see someone asked about the design sprint. You so let's see. I'm just trying to. Anything else we can get into? So how has been How's the feedback been on this? Like, has you're taking people through meetings and you know, what is the response from the site? So a few changes that we made. We initially had like the consumer app, just like the download links and stuff up there, but it led to a lot of confusion. Oh, this is also like potentially a consumer app. So we just kind of brought that down to the bottom because we want it to be more about the business. We're actually going to do a few refinements this week that I need to work on to make it a little bit more oriented around showing that it's different companies being able to use it themselves. So in the case of the mavericks, even though they did do it in conjunction with us, it's still a little bit harder to understand that, well, we're trying to sell the opportunity to work with us, and just seeing the queue on their video was a little bit just a little confusing. So trying to figure out more ways to show the White label solutions and whatnot, like maybe like the UK when News Corp white labeled our product and stuff. So finding a way in that video to show more variety of use cases. And I've also thought about even showing some production b-roll to kind of put people in the shoes of, oh, we're actually producing this or this is something that showing the full process of what this is. I've thought about doing that. Yeah, I think like as you're describing it, I'm like any case studies. Yeah, so we had them on the last site, but we were just kind of looking to get this out. So our metrics are all up by a significant amount, which is really exciting, especially considering it's only been a few days. But yeah, putting the use cases back up is going to be a pretty big priority now that that's not in the sprint, but I'm actually I'll probably just grind that back out over the weekend or something to get that back up. What are what are your thoughts on the case studies being associated with that grid with the phones? Because we have q live, we have the Mavericks case study. We've got a few of these put together, at least in like kind of a bare bones area with a little bit of b-roll for each of them, what are your thoughts of attaching to those sections? But even in that same section. Yeah, I like a link out to it. I mean, like so here to read this case study and go out to another page. Yeah, OK. Yes, definitely that because you want to throw a case study. I think that's fine as long as there is a really clear explanation, but description about what it is, so it's like, you know, see how the Mavericks used it to their business or whatever it is, you know, so like a contextual call to action? Yeah, Yeah. Not like you. A case study because I think like, here's a good example of how this worked for the Mavericks. Sure sure. You know, with like you don't have to throw in, you could throw in the statistics, but it's like even just seeing something like how this helped the Mavericks business or how she felt the Mavericks game their fans back or whatever it is. I don't know. Think about sports. I'm sorry. Yeah OK. Go, team. All right. Cool So let's see, I is active sports. Yep Demetrius, I'm glad you're standing right there because you are up next to my friend. Thank you so much for that, by the way. Yeah, you're very welcome. Thanks for sharing. So here, OK, I'm going to put a. We put the link in here and then are you here on camera? Can you talk to us? Can you give us a little context? Basically, yeah, this is not a product, this is my studio's website. This is basically sort of a brochure website. I have my case studies, I have my services. I recently made a product, so I'm selling this through this site basically. Oh, very cool. OK it's going fine. OK, so I can fix this. I hope I can fix this. It's going to be different, but oh, yeah, yeah, that's better. Thanks so here, yeah, why don't you give us a kind of brief explanation of your goal for this website? And we'll sort of like we'll focus on the landing page, but we'll click around a little bit. OK basically, I started my own business last may, so it's almost a year now, and the first thing I try to do is I'm doing branding and identity and I try to model. I try to model this website basically on blinds website. I thought, if you're going to copy someone, copy someone you admire. So that's the whole idea behind this. I, I started it started very different. I was much more text involved. And I had some feedback from Leeds that they didn't see enough of the work while browsing on the website. So I try to make it much more visual. And yeah, that's the main concept. So when people are going through your landing page, what is the one thing you would like them to do? Basically, click the button to hire me. That's the main line. Let's work together. I think that most people visit my website after they've been exposed to me in some other way. So usually after they get my card or we meet in a networking event, I have lots of landing pages just for SEO purposes and they're going really well. So I think that whenever someone looks for branding in my borough or logo design and my borrow can land upon my website, I'm among the top three top three options in most of my keywords. So that's going well, right? So I think that this is a website they visit after they've been curious about working with me. Got it. OK, cool. Um, I'm just going to kind of scroll through and think out loud, so OK, services, case studies, blood contact shop. OK book a call, yeah, so that's the most prominent thing that's like obvious, call the action there. OK, cool. You know, I've tried using the I've recently finished the StoryBrand book and I'm in the process of changing my copy. But the first few really blatant pieces of advice from the book I started implementing. So that's why the buttons are there now. Got it. I love. I love this photo, man. It's great. Everyone said it's very, very close to who I am like people who know me told me, like, this is a great picture. So I'm like, yeah, sure. Yeah, no, that immediately kind of gives me a sense of your personality. And like, you know, I feel like that will connect you with the people who will appreciate that too. So I'm all for it. Plus, it's great photo. OK, so OK. So we have kind of a. The branding identity, OK, so this is sort of like not a carousel, but a very quick montage of work. OK there's a little about you and you do some testimonials. Cool and then some work here. OK got it. And we were discussing strategy design. Oh, that's great. OK Canadian an identity. It says. Look, it's to. OK great. I mean, I think you have. A pretty clear. Direction for you know, who you are and what it is that you do. You know, I mean, if I were to be really critical. And I know you're saying you're working at the copy. But if I land on your page and I'm here, I'm seeing move the needle design that makes a difference in your business. OK so yeah, I mean, you're not straight up saying, you know, we are a design and branding agency, but you sort of get a sense. It's like we understand design at least. OK one of the things we're working on now with our own landing page, especially, we're just like the biggest point of contention in our kind of rebuild of the face, but it's trying to figure out what do we want people to do and how do we want to talk about it and we keep coming back to the order of what people care about, which is why, how and then what? Right so I'm kind of keeping that in mind as I'm looking through all these websites. So it's like, OK, are you starting with why? And then you talk about how and go into what? So I think if. If anything, you could kind of reorder some things a little bit like, I like, you know, at the top you start with, you know, there's some images of your work, but you're really kind of focusing it around why it benefits. Know, I've been told that it would be good to have to have some pictures with me, actually with a client or something like this, making the client more important part of this less focused on me myself. Yes Yeah. And I think how we work. I think you can move that up because this is such a valuable piece of information right here. Discovery, strategy, design, production. You know, once you establish why, then you go into how I think like this clearly illustrates. I think you can start talking about, which is like branding and identity. And then here are examples of branding and identity. And I think once you work through the copy, that'll come more naturally. Which which I think will help. OK, so in terms of. Our direction. You know, I just want to click through on a case study to see what was going on here. Report for you. OK, this is a case study, so let's go into this one nice photo. Yes OK. So get a nice big image like, I like the photo, interestingly enough, it seems like there's more kind of negative space versus space around. I don't know if you guys can see my mouth, but space around the actual screen of the phone. Yeah, I'm guessing. I'm guessing what you want to show me is this Granny's parlor. Yep right? OK, so if I could make a suggestion, it would be to either crop weigh in on this or maybe use a different photo or take a different photo that has the phone and the screen a little more prominent. You know, so small and not at such an angle, because I think you have some beautiful work and I love the colors and it's honestly, it's just kind of hard to see from this angle. And it's like far back. OK, so daring to be different. Grinding grains taller. Cool Yeah. Put the impact. OK there was a brand new logo type. OK, that's great. Oh yeah, this is fantastic. I love this image. OK which resulted. The Oh, this is beautiful. Love this. I feel like you should this textile should go up with the candy because both of these photos and images like such high quality, it's really great. And these two, yeah, these are wonderful. These kind of if they're important, maybe keep them there, but you could kind of push them more to the bottom. But if you want to dazzle people like I think these are really doing good work for you, it's a great. Very good. Cool OK. All right. So I think I kind of get a. They get a sense of find out from the case study guide. Mm-hmm Just following this, it's actually using this form has helped a lot like I think when I started putting in case studies on my website, that's when I started getting calls. It's been working great so far. And yeah, I think. Um, I'm just revisiting the copy, and, you know, since you offered to review, I said, like, what the hell? Let's see what, what else I can fix. Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. I think like my biggest my biggest note for you would be. Yeah, I think, I think working through copy and. And I think your type needs some help. And I think all of our type needs some help, so someone someone mentioned like line length. The thing the thing is like different screens show different, you know, different screen sizes make it a little bit tough for me to actually, you know, fix this. So yeah, I know I get it. I think, yeah, there's some like fundamental type things that I think if you work on, it would help a lot that this is kind of weird. I don't know what just happened. I think I broke it. So now this is basically this is basically a ready theme that I don't I don't do website so much. So I this was something I tried to have ready. I'm in this stage right now that I cannot really afford to have a developer to help with that. So adapting a theme was the best option I could have available. Oh, yeah, no, I get it. The future. It's been like a hacked together thing for years, which which is why we're finally working on it. Yeah, no, no, I'm certainly not here to criticize anyone. No, no, no, absolutely. I mean, like a lot of these things are, are, you know, I decided that having something out was the first top priority. And then just when things break, it's just I'm not technical enough to fix. So I'm just waiting for the new iteration when I can afford to invest the money and actually make it a little better. Yeah, well, that makes sense. I mean, I. I think some of the things I'd like to mention, hopefully it's not, you know. I don't know how savvy you are with CFS, if you are at all or with kind of minor issues, but I think there's just some minor adjustments that would it's really just kind of helping with legibility a little bit. Yeah and, you know, take these with a grain of salt and it might be the kind of thing. So it's all valid. Don't worry. Of like, you know, offer to buy your friend a beer or something in exchange for helping figure this out. But even this like so this section, it's such a great photo. I think you have interesting things to say. But like, you know, I would sort of try to separate these a bit these meaning like your photo and the copy, right? Because I'm seeing like, OK, it looks like two different type colors, two different weights, three different sizes. So like just some type fundamentals where it's like you want to kind of keep it as simple as you can. So you want a headline to be able to get someone's attention and then you need some body copy. And I think that's really kind of all, you need for this section. And yeah, yeah, I think also the centered, the censored type like, I think that's always kind of tricky to do with a lot of body copies. Typically you want to like left a line. Large blocks of copy like that where I think you use entering the right way is someone maybe on the other page, but but like something like this, so you're called to action. Do you have a project that you want to discuss? I think like taking that, centering it and then putting the button beneath it or something like that. It's just kind of makes it a little easier to follow the flow of information. So, yeah, I think you said someone mentioned line width. That's that's definitely like a kind of a legibility issue. And it might not bother some people. And I think you can kind of get through it, even though it's a bit of a struggle. But some people actually really have a problem reading like that. And it can. It can be beyond frustrating, but just like. I don't know how to of deal with that thing, so if before you kind of go nuts, I'm totally redesigning anything, I would say fine. Find someone maybe in the group or someone designing your work with someone you know, who's really strong with type and even just could have them screenshot your site and just kind of mock it up with the same exact type, just sort of refined a little bit and adjusted. So for this type here would be kind of. I think the line with needs to be trimmed down quite a bit and sort of blocked, blocked into the right. Yeah, just kind of work out the sizing. It makes sense to work on the type. Yeah, Yeah. Like, I feel like you have great work, your case study, you look fantastic. Yeah, I think if you just up your type game a little bit, you don't need a new website. I think it's just the arrangement and flow of text information, and I'm looking at how we work here. This is great. This is a good example where it's like there's a really clear headline discovery and then body copy. We always start with discovery and each section has a spacing between it. And it's sort of like structured and blocked, so I can follow this information really easily and it's super clear. And there's also, you know, the body copy centered, but it's a sentence or maybe two. So it's not a lot of copy to read versus like, OK, branding and identity right below. I think this is great. It's just too wide. You know, like you need to cut this in half the width in half at least, and then you can take that block and either put it in the middle of the screen or on the left. Yeah, I think it's really just kind of like simplifying what you have here, you have a lot of good information. It's just kind of paring it back like, you know, you don't need three different types sizes right here. You just need to the headline and this body copy doing that and cutting the width in half. I think like it'll look like New site. You'll be like, wow, this is so much kind of easier to read through, you know? And that way people will be able to appreciate all of your great work in that sort of. You know, struggle trying to read anything based on just kind of fundamentally how the copy is laid out. The other thing that kind of just threw me off, maybe because I expected it, and it's such a heuristic at this point, it's like for some reason I wanted to see a Footer or some sort of call to action where it's like you've reached the end of this website, go back to the top. I think when it sort of just ends like that, I first, like, I wasn't quite sure I was like. Traffic keeps growing. Did something not load like it sort of. It's a foot. I never managed to feel this content, basically. Oh, OK. OK, so it's there. All right. Yeah, that's all great work, that man. Man, OK, Yeah. Case studies, their case is great. I want to look at one more really quickly. Look at this, this looks all dark and dramatic. Yeah cool. Yeah all good information again right here, just like giving a bit more space between the left side, like the mission and the right side where a client project will help. Oh, this is great. This is cool. New project in the works. And then just on the right, you can even probably squeeze this right hand side in a bit more. Let's take a look. Know I have a really good resource for web copy and legibility. I can't think of what it is right now, but if I can, I will post in the group later. But it's really great helping you pick like type, size and spacing and color, and it goes into accessibility a little bit, but it's more just like, make sure people can read what you have to say and you make it easy for them. And if you do it the right way, it's like they don't even notice it kind of thing. This is cool. You have a really great case study photos. I followed the guide verbatim like. With that Ben's case completed as soon as he released that, I feel good. Yeah cool. OK great. I just want to look through the chat real quick before we move on, if there's any. Thank you, Greg. Yeah, I know you're very welcome and thank you for sharing. The traffic cone for Footer, Yes. Use used 1.83 rule, I don't know what that is, but that sounds interesting. OK, cool. Right here we'll stop sharing right on. OK, Thanks. Yeah, Thanks so much. All right. Oh, OK, Spencer. Yeah, so you mentioned you mentioned the 1.83 rule. Coincidentally, your website is up next. But while I get that loaded, do you explain what that is? I'm not familiar with that. Yeah so if you start for the designers out here, an excellent place to learn some web design stuff if you don't know it, or if you're new to it is probably Stanley's channel he works with. Envision now is one of the principal designers, but he has a channel called Sketch together. I know there's a lot of Adobe XD fans here, but sketch together. He teaches you a lot about identity systems, design systems, primarily on the web. And what the web components hold you to. So the 1.83 system is so starting with the base font. So if your body and your font is going to be 16, then you would take 16 times 1.83 and that would be your eight, your head or six. You would take that number and you would times it by 1.83. That would be your head or five. Do you do that? I'll up to a header one. And if your header one isn't large enough, you would make something like a super or a jumbo, et cetera. And with tools such as XD and sketch, you can set those up as textiles and use them throughout your entire project. So and label them as such. And that way you're maintaining the same. And then if you fall into typical website hierarchy, you have a header one per page. That's standard stuff. Then you have your header, too, which classifies your sections and then your header three will be your subcategories where your header for would be used, sometimes as a bold above a bulleted list, et cetera you're using everything across the board the whole way through, and you yourself are limiting yourself as a designer to seven font choices. While they do need to be in the same typeface so your CSS resources are low. It does help to have that type of framework, and the 1.83 is just the most commonly used one across the web. Interesting super cool. Yeah, I think it was like Google Material had had something similar in their kind of outline where. Yeah, since you said that bass body copy size and everything should be relative to that. There's a bunch of different technical ways to do it, but there's a interesting, yeah, there's a ton of frameworks out there you can use in the Golden rule. I can find that link and share it back later. Yeah, I can. Bryan, I can put that in. I saw it in chat. There's a tool that allows you to set those up based off any type framework so I can put together and send to you. Very cool. Yeah, that'd be great. OK, so since we're going to look at the website, you shared next and here I'll put it in the chat so everyone can check it out. And then while I load it up, do you want to give us some context for how to look at the site? Yeah, yeah, so we're primarily B to b, we do work a little bit with traditional partners. So what you're looking at is an agency website. We've been in business for a little over right up on six years middle of may, only six years. I've been with the company for three years. This project, the website did you're about to look at, was our redesign based off our previous site took a few months to design and about a month and a half to develop. Did I designed it from the first pixel away to the last? Myself and our project coordinator restructured all of our content, and then our senior developer developed the entire project. Most of them are developed by him. Really, we're really big on our workflow. In regards to design our designers. We beat it in their heads to know the web, to know what's with inside the confines of the web. So we don't design anything for ourselves or our clients that the web is going to not like. It helps us maintain expectations. So that's the main part of it. Since we've launched it, our conversion rates have went up probably 60 70% I would say it's wow, relatively unconventional in regards to what's expected from our type of site. Hence, there's not a big ass image and a single tagline with the CTA. It's very it's not story brand at all, which is even if you don't recognize story brand, that's what a lot of sites are these days. Yeah, that's pretty much it, I can talk to anything as you have questions. Great OK. So here, let me share my screen were all looking at the same thing. OK And then what? So are you guys primarily building sites? What kind of clients? Yeah, so we're probably we're probably 50-50 straight down the low, probably 40, 40, 20. So 40% of our business would be website design and development. And then we do offer managed and advertising services, paid advertising, programmatic advertising and search engine optimization, social media with a different arm. And then 20% would be creative and branding as well. Interesting so I'm just looking at this under our work since 5,000 customers service doesn't both built 15 courts in Cuba. Oh, that's so interesting. So you kind of pair a business result directly with like, yeah, we're all B2B. I just commented in a chat about the parallax deal. So it's hard for us and designers in general, anybody in the business, any industry to understand that your client really doesn't care, but so much so even if a number like we don't care about 10,000 boats built on the boat builder, we care about an eight month project that started from scratch and has over 2,200 variations for the side of a boat and configurations that can be built. We care about all of that, but the client doesn't care as long as they can build a boat and sell it the same way you can build on an escalator and kind of like sight, right? So showing that no to a potential other boat manufacturer that hey, 4,000 boats were built through this platform and didn't break, that's enough to get them to call and ask them, hey, what did you do for these guys? How did this really work? And then we can share the whole process of what happens, how complex the solution really was. Got it. OK so I'm just going through. I'm going to look at some of the get those aren't clickable. Oh, OK. I was about to raise click that. I'm like, no, no. The cursor doesn't switch, either. So instinctively, if you look for that, if you look for the hand, you would click. These are clicking I mean, these are websites, but they're just they're not full case studies. Got it. Got it. OK yes, so you don't have to go through if you click on that one there, Sycamore hill. This is for a non-profit, it's for environmental, architectural, peace in the community. So this is over on the right hand side, you can actually scroll through the. Should be able to. Yeah oh, wow, OK. Yeah, you'll see that this one right here is probably the one that's like the furthest away from what the web rewards in regards to a design that we've done simply because all their traffic is going to come from a postcard. It's not going to be searchable except for like a branded keyword, so it wouldn't matter. But that's just a good example, everything else is more so specifically to be. They need to show up. OK all right. Well, first of all, I want to tell you what frustrates me. This is such a cool feature. I would have no idea you could. You could do this like I went through a couple of these and like this and I was like, so yeah, so it only works unless you move your mouse over there. Yeah but yeah, I don't know if. I wonder, I don't know if you guys want the full story or something, something where you can kind of study what users are actually doing on your website. But I would be curious to see how many people actually do this because this is super interesting. I love it now that I know about it, but I feel like I would never know about it because I just sort to get past it. Yeah so some sort of disclaimer or something there like for it to hover and then when you hover, it actually activates. Yeah, that's a good suggestion. Yeah I mean, if you there could be some sort of prompt that comes up or it could just like kind of scroll one section at a time on its own, you know, like you don't necessarily have to have the user to do the work. It's a really nice way to. I think present the information, but we just kind of scrapped one of these concepts for our website, too, because we're just signing something like, oh, this would be really cool to do this and show a few people in there like, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do here, just like straight up. But you know, something to consider because it's a nice way to show the work. And yeah, I think that, you know, there's we have a live site that people can go to, which is great. But if that ever changes and you don't want to put the reset button here, you might consider making it easier for people to know what to do. OK, I want to go back to the landing page. OK the award winning Asian brands consumers to reach your business goals. OK so I'm going to assume you guys know exactly how to talk to your customers, because it seems really like the copywriting seems really focused. You know, I don't know how much I can. I can speak to that, especially if it'd to be like, you don't pretty. I did not know. So I don't know if you can say to you, buddy. OK OK, so so we're pretty we're there with our content, if you scroll down a little bit to where we list out of our services. Our editors are really there more flavorful. And even our content so much is a little bit more cheeky. So we come off as loose when we're with clients. Our our voice is very loose to them. So that's reflected here for the most part within reason while still being content heavy to answer questions based off queries. OK. Yeah, I think, you know, so my if we just kind of go top to bottom to the landing page, my gut reaction here was like, where do I look like I started here like, OK, this is big, I like this, I'm going to read this. And then there's some information here. But then I, you know, this kind of caught my eye too is bright. It's red, it's complex. I'm like scooting over here and then I see buttons down here. But then I think this also popped up automatically for me, too. So it just kind of felt like. It was it was a bit of information overload. I think that was my gut reaction. Yeah, because at this point, you're asking me to do a lot of things that I'm not sure which one is the most important or what to do next, I guess. So for what it's worth. Let me ask, what would you consider to ask? You need to do. Well, when I got here, so I'm looking at I'm looking at, OK, so there's two buttons, I can learn more. I'm like, OK, it's hard and soft case. Yeah, yeah, that's that. That makes sense. But learn more about what I'm not sure. Our work? OK, that makes sense. And then I see the cat. Yeah, I don't. I don't mean to sound like I'm challenging that, but I think that may be overthinking. Learn more because if you look at it as a business owner, imagine you're looking at you're looking for a developer, right? And or a company to work with you to build any site marketing, et cetera. And you're looking at our site in comparison to three other sites comparison to three other sites you would already kind of want to know. It's kind of intuitive to learn more about the company. I always spoken about with ourselves, so that's a. I don't. I welcome criticism, but I don't really agree with that particular one. I don't think it's that hard to figure out what learn more means. Fair enough. Fair enough. Let me approach this a different way, so. A potential client lands on this page. What is the one thing you want them to do? Uh, contact us via our work or view our work. They can view our work, they're going to get in, but we also want them. We need to position ourselves as who we are and what to do. We'll see you. OK so if the angle is you want someone to reach out, contact you and be like, hey, I don't want to work with you or I have questions because I want to work with you. OK, so more and more go. Make for one. OK for work work. Hypocritical yeah, I mean, I think in that case, the like let's chat seems to kind of get my attention the most and I'm like, all right, that seems to me at least as the user like where you want me to go the most. And I think, you know, another maybe another reason why I'm like, what's the most important is there's. There's one color that's being used for kind of everything, which is red. and I. I think that's fine. It's just it's like a little bit of everywhere on the site, and I'm not the sharpest guy, but I'm like, OK, I'm overwhelmed. I think that's the word I'm looking for. So for what? For what it's worth, and I'm probably not your. The user that you're looking for, that's sort of just my gut here. More and more and more. Yeah, I think just. Regardless of strategy and designing for exactly the client you're looking forward from, just sort of, I guess, taking a step back to the kind of art direction if I were looking at this based on just design and type and layout and everything. I would say great information. Probably need to simplify or break it up or give things some like room to breathe because there's sort of just at least above the fold right here. It feels like there's a lot, there's a lot going on. And like I said earlier, I think that's part of the struggle we're dealing with, too. It's just like, how do we take all this information? Put it in one section so people know where it is, they can understand it, we don't hide it, but it doesn't all compete with each other. So that's just one of those things. Yeah like, I don't know, do you need these photos here, necessarily, because this seems to be the meat of the sandwich, this information here. So I don't know. Maybe it doesn't have to be like a full width image. I get that we see that a lot. It's not necessarily helping you, but in terms of hierarchy of information. I don't know that maybe these images are at least helping you achieve your goal, at least with what I understand. OK, this makes sense. I will work. OK I love this. I love pairing like this, like key information. Next to the design of the website. If I could make a suggestion, it might be to. Maybe break these two apart. Right, so they're not kind of overlapping in the same like image, I guess. And you know, I might be a bad example, but you know, for instance, if you had. Instead of putting it all like a block within another block within screens, you know, if you just had maybe. You know, a mockup here of the site like these two, which which is great, I love that sort of hovering over white and then you could actually use this copy either beneath it or next to it or something, just so it's a little there's a little bit more of a. Sense of like layout of information, you know, super valuable. I think maybe it's just an arrangement and a layout thing that might make that a little easier on the eyes. This is strictly just kind of like, you know, art direction, type and layout kind of. Oh Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And also, for some reason, like so we. There's just reading some of the comments in the chat about moving, scrolling through and things like that, allowing the content to lead. So we took this a lot from. We did do user testing through Hotjar with 20 of our clients. We trusted to give extremely honest feedback. We have a little over 300 clients. And over 400 websites we've built, so we have some that we know are going to be very blunt. That's what we went through. So a lot of the things that maybe don't make sense to the members here. Not that anything you said doesn't make sense. And that's not what I'm saying, but a lot of it comes from complaints we've heard from clients. So a client who has spent the most money with us, or maybe in our particular demo, they might have complained that a long scroll on a competitor site led them to leave. Or they may, you know, it took them too long to figure out what they had done, et cetera. So allowing everything to be relatively compact. And while I agree there is a lot of information about the phone, I would also challenge those who say that they spend some time in analytics and understand how much time someone spends on the standard home page in regard look at your bounce rate. We were seeing that we were losing users after five or like three or four seconds. And so it's putting more content in there to kind of Captivate them because even if you're skimming this, you see our tagline, you see that we won awards, you see our main four silos and then a call to action. So it's thinking about our user and our users are the people we talk to every day and we do their work for them. So understanding that it's not so much screen recordings and heat mapping, it's also, you know, the last six years of actually talking to businesses that are dimmer and what they value based off our competitors and what made them pick up the phone and call us as well. Yeah I mean, I'm Brian. Good point, if that's driving your numbers up the. Yeah, I mean, this is what I mean. It's hard like I'm listening. I'm very open to critique, but I was very honest in the beginning. Like our no, our conversions are up, you know, at least 65% based off the news site because we were for so long big ass hero image, different color, hard CTA to soft CTA heading subheading story brand out the ass. And then this right switching to something like this, like if you look at base camp, new landing page base camp had the same thing. So going off of this new model here, I mean, they skyrocketed. So it's like breaking the mold a little bit, you know? I mean, is it base camp back home? Are they changed it? They've changed it once again to it. Well, it's all left in line. You actually had to scroll down to get their CTA there. CTA well, it's below the fold. It was all left in line with an image on the right. Interesting yeah, I mean, take this with a grain of salt, if you're getting the numbers and the business response that you're looking for, then you're doing something right. Yeah, I do think there's a way to balance that there's a way to. You know, it doesn't have to be all fancy show bells and whistles. That doesn't give any real business results, and conversely, it doesn't have to be, you know, a so complex marketing like boring website for lack of a better term. And just because I'm a little bit lazy in this moment, I don't really want to type it out. But William, to answer your question is more so just to. This is truthfully the third call I've been on. The first one have actually been able to be on video. And mike, I websites very well. I'm like, I haven't, except for the CTA at the beginning because I just had a comment about it. I'm not discouraging any of the critique. It's just putting my piece in there for us to talk about someone watching and listening to this review and may learn something from this. You know, a different approach. I'm not looking for a confidence booster. I'm not really sure of that question. But yeah, it's just to be a part of the engagement. That's not really a fair question, to be honest. I think this is a great example and I know, you know, when we talk about. Design guys, it can get really subjective and especially with websites, and it's like, this is truly a business tool, it's provide value for you. And we also want it to look pretty. Yeah, I know that's like, this is the balance we try to strike And I know we have to be careful about how we talk about this stuff to a degree, because as soon as someone mentions the CEO, it's like, I don't know, that's like an entirely different beast. So that's really why I want to frame this around. OK first of all, marketing initiatives and then secondly is just design aesthetics like what are some fundamentals? And most of the time it's going to be like, you need better type. We need to work on the type. And here's why, because you have great information, but it's hard for people to read, or it can be easier for people to read if it isn't typical. So I think this is a really kind of great thing to look at. You know, by comparison with everything else we've talked about. I I'm looking at this section, I'm like, oh, this is great, like this is. A juicy amount of information, but I think maybe layout layout is like what I keep harping on here, but this is laid out so nicely. You know, it's really well designed information, super clear. There's lots of it. It doesn't overwhelm me. And I think because it's sort of like just put together nicely. And cleanly. It's easy. It's easy for me to follow. And even looking at this block compared to this block, I'm like this. This actually has more interesting information. But I wonder if there's a way that we kind of strategically weigh it out, so it's a little easier on the eyes, as would be my only suggestion. But again, like, dude, it is working for you. My hat's off. Keep it up and teach and share with us. You know why? You know, I'd love to know more about that because yeah, at the end of the day, we're not designing for Designers. We're designing for her client. So and there was one question that, oh, from anne-sophie about A/B testing. That is. That's a good suggestion. We haven't done that yet. Do you need to do that? Yeah, to the grid question you said about the layout, it's all everything's grid. So if you're familiar with that framework, as well as everything we design of grid based off 1,440 screen size. You know, our containers size, excuse me. I think. Like, we're down grid wise, it falls really easy, it's clear I think my struggle is like specifically maybe the right hand section, the other photos and the kind of like red stripes are. It's just like even the information, the left Mike. OK, there's a structure there. I understand what's going on. So maybe it's just this on the right like. It can be there, I think maybe it's sort of just it feels like it should coexist on the grid a little greener, but but again, it sounds like at least your problem. You guys are doing great. So I'm really happy to hear that. That's cool. Yes one more thing. Sorry, I've taken up too much time, but the comment about Brian made about meeting the audience and you said the same thing if you know who they are. There's also a comment above that says that about maybe your current audience isn't where you want to be. And truthfully, we positioned fairly well. We want to be with companies. They're doing between 2.5 to $10 million in revenue. And luckily enough that luckily that accounts for about 70% of our business. So our current audience is our desired audience, but we are still understanding that with new industries and new verticals, we're in a transient area geographically, so we see a fair amount of different people coming through. We are always aware, but that was taken into effect as well. And what we found with based off our analytics that drove our decisions for design as well was people were coming for one of those main reasons. They either found us from a referral, they wanted a website, they were searching for web design or they were coming for SEO or they were coming for paid advertising. So why not make it extremely simple? And while looking at it now and listening to you guys that great section, they're above the fold does need a little attention. That's why our entire company now has been kind of siloed out into. Are you here for development? Are you here for managed services or paid advertising services? And just translating that our voices that way when we get to the phone. So making that distinction very quickly is what led to that particular breakdown of how things are. Super interesting. I was just reading back through the comments, and William was feeling the tension in the great. Hey me too. That's OK. I think it is good to have a difference in opinion, and sometimes it is just based on opinion. Oh yeah, no. That's just how I sound, dude. I'm not. I'm not offended or anything. This is the first time we've ever talked. It's not like we're having coffee. We're talking over face FaceTime. I'm having Zoom call about a website, you know, like you. It is what it is. No, I think it's great because, yeah, at the end of the day, you know, I'm sort of speaking to everyone here is like you can design all you want, but if you're not getting the results, you got a different if you thought I told Rachel, it doesn't matter, like she's like, does it matter or something like that? And I was like, I was like, no, none of it matters like parallax from boot straps or boot straps junky as hell, but like parallax scrolling is kind of a staple at this point. Yeah, we hate it, but it is what it is. It's we have to. We can only educate our clients on so much. If we can't, you can't expect to educate every single new lead and expect them to listen to you. So it's understanding that you can do tons and tons and tons of user research, but all of us here have probably seen it before. As soon as something goes live, product goes to market a website app, anything. It's flipped on its head because the masses who use it aren't always the people you polled and you work with, it's understanding that. So yes, there's a lot of things that could be different, but it also is coming back to and I think I'm going to work with off that. So the idea of A/B test and everything. Yeah not one size fits all. There's like guidelines, but it's never the case right on. Spencer, thank you. Appreciate the direct conversation. That's great. But whenever I take it, let's see, I'm going through my list here, so it's nine 20, so I'm going to move a little quicker because we have a handful more sites to get through. Seth Chang, are you with us today? Yes, I am. All right. So I'm going to post your site in a chat while I pull it up. Do you want to give us a quick? Kind of lens through which to look at your site, what are we looking at? Yeah, so I'm a bit of a different breed. I'm not an agency. I am not a design brand, branding agency or anything like that. I focus on a topic called product licensing, which simply means renting ideas out to companies. They get to make it, they get to sell it, market it and they pay you in royalties every time it's sold. So I focus on teaching people how to license their ideas out to these companies and get paid for them in royalties. So my business is called house of royalties have a YouTube channel called house of royalties. Right now, my revenue and main product is this membership here, where people just pay monthly and soon I want to introduce some courses, an online course on licensing or ideas, some templates. I've got a template that people can buy and have a free version of a free starter kit for lead generation. That's my main focus actually with this website is to generate leads and capture emails. I'm not so much about getting subscribers or followers the things that I'm looking at. It's just emails and eventually lead them down a funnel through those emails into this newsletter and to those products and just do that over and over again. So I guess we're I would like to look at this for more of a marketing point of view. Sure, we could go and talk about art direction. The website itself is pretty much it is that I didn't do any special coding or any special design to it. I just used it as it is laid it out as best as I can to make it as clear and compelling enough for them to go and click the button. Got it. OK, so the button you want them to click, I'm assuming, is learn more of the membership. Well, the least thing that I would want somebody to do is leave the website. But after giving me their web email so they sign up for the email newsletter or they sign up for the licensing starter kit, or they sign up for the product licensing. It's called mastery product licensing mastery pre-launch, so those are all just email synapse. And then if they are interested in buying something, they could go and buy something too. Got it. OK Yeah. So you kind of go through these different courses here and get people to just email exchange, OK. Yeah so this has been generating a lot of emails, which is really nice, but I need more. Yeah, I guess that's another question is, what do you like? If you could make an adjustment to your site, that would give you a result, what would that result be like? What do you look for? Just more emails, more email sign ups? Yeah, I would like people to visit this website and be intrigued and compelled enough to be like, oh, I want to license my own ideas. Have my own ideas. Sign me up. I'm curious. So one of the things that I have in my to do list is to create a video intro videos for all of these essential products, I guess, I guess that's what we'll call them the membership. I've got a video on it. The licensing starter kit does not have a video on it, but it is something that people just download for free because there's a lot of stuff in it. OK, cool. OK, ready. Yeah, I would say so, it looks like at least the strategy right now is there's. There's either like DLC or offering in exchange for an email or a kind of presale for a course. Private coaching or so you got some these are actually products. Yeah, that's Photoshop templates. OK purchase. Got it. Got it. Cool I mean, this is yeah, this is like right in line with a lot of what we're trying to do and figure out with our site. And this one is their all version ones of each sales page. So they need improvements like this one. Definitely all of them. One of the things after hearing your comments on the other sites is to have testimonials. And I've got I've got some, I've got members in my membership. I got to go grab some testimonials from them, put that in there, and I think that will be that would help a lot. Yeah, absolutely. I think. Yeah, I think like the first impression is like a little the photo, it gives me a sense of who you are. It's fun. Product licensing is so interesting. I would actually kind of want to understand the benefit of that. You know, if I went on your site and I wasn't even sure what that meant or if it was for me, you know, I guess a little context of how people or my traffic sources YouTube. So everybody that goes on YouTube, they are there watching the videos, then they'll go into the description. So that's they get a little bit of introduction about licensing there, since it's your first time kind of seeing this stuff. It's kind of what, right? Yeah yeah, that makes sense. OK all right. Just kind of scrolling through your YouTube quickly. OK so, I mean, I guess one other thing is like on here, it seems like you have. Some kind of brand established establishment, you know, which which is great, but over here it kind of feels like if I didn't see your photo, I might be like somewhere else, like I wasn't wouldn't be sure if I was on the right website. So, you know. In terms of aesthetics, I think having some sort of brain continuity might, might help you. So even if it's just like that, the kind of royal blue and yellow, you know, like this is such a nice, designed how do I feel like seeing something like that over here would at least help me connect the dots between the two? Yeah, and OK, assuming I'm familiar with stuff. So I'm going to scroll down and talk about membership, ok? Yeah, I think, you know. Any when you're asking for someone to sign up or buy something or even exchange their email, you're aiming for that kind of value trade so. if this is a presale page, for instance, let's say. Yeah, so a good, a good example. And I, you know, of course, I'm biased here, but. Our sales page for one of the first file escapes we created that solely is kind of like a mini kickstarter, like a pre-sale for the course. So we had kind of general idea for what it was going to be, but it wasn't fully realized that because we wanted to test it. And you know, like people told us, a lot of things like make this, make that and it's a lot of work to do any of those things. So we thought this time let's test this theory out and we know people need real information. They need sort of like concrete tactics and things to be able to understand, like I'm not going to fork over. You know. Any more than 50 years unless I really want to get out of the way? That, of course, was we actually did. I did a photo shoot with Chris and took maybe like an hour and a half, but I shot a bunch of photos of him. We shot a video of him sort of just talking about his ideas for what he thought the class would be. We didn't have a curriculum just yet. But in his mind, he, you know, he's like, I know what this class is fundamentally, and I can talk to that. And we had some soundscapes that we could use. So we cut together a very quick promo video, which is still on the sales page. While we're shooting that video, I was taking photos of Chris just kind of like, you can't see me right now, but just kind of like making hand gestures and stuff like this. We use that to pepper throughout the sales page. And then what I did was go back and I trans coded what you transcribed, rather what Chris had said into a lot of the copy for the sales page. Mm-hmm So and then again, the day I was like, shoot is a pretty decent looking sales page. Like, I know it's not there yet, but. It got people excited. It gave you an idea and some like potential for how this would help you, what you'll have to show after you take the course and how it's going to benefit you as a business or as an individual. So I think you're starting to get into that here, and I think that's a smart approach to building a course. Yeah, the none of the content is made. The I just went ahead and made the sales page, and after making the sales page, I was like, oh, shoot, this thing already looks done. And now it's just popping in the content for recording the videos and the videos. But before I do that, I want to see if people would be interested in this. So they said, get it, get small, a small amount, but it's still good that people are signing off. But I would like to have more to make sure that, yeah, this is something people would really want to pay for. And that would be the next step. After I hit, I think about 100 email synapse. We're going to start charging for pretty launch price, even though it's not made, and then take time to actually make it and then launch it. The real launch? Yeah Yeah. Yeah, and this is all this stuff they kind of weave into when Chris told me about that value ladder and that thing just blew my whole mind and all of these products, all these things that are introduced on this site, they fit into this ladder. And I want to create this email list where I could start introducing all these products in a certain sequence within this ladder. And all of these would fit into it. And there's more. I have a lot more that have not even showing here because they're not made yet. Yeah, I mean, I think strategically, it seems like, you know what you're doing like I can see what you mean about the value ladder, you know, in terms of marketing and convincing people to exchange their email. Yeah like trying to think of the best way to say, I just think it's like you got to make it look, make it look really nice, make it look sexy, make it look super interesting. Get people excited. Yeah and I think you have all the right information, but you're sort of missing the sex appeal of that. If that makes any, Yeah. Yeah now it's like putting in more, just more stuff, more images, more things that would make it compelling. And there's a lot of text that's happening, which is good. I think results and data, all those things are necessary to. And yeah, that's I see it as an evolution. It's going to get there. We'll get there soon. Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, I don't I don't think you need to. It's not like a nuke and redo. It's like, man, you get one promo video in here explaining like, how great this class is going to be. Just hit on the bullet points of the most important things that you know, people who land on the stage will be listening for and looking for. And then, yeah, throw throw like a mock up in there. And I think those little things will make a big difference. Like one of our things. For the last six months was to revisit our landing pages and just add as many videos as we could like make a promo video, even if we weren't shooting anything new, but just like kind of cut something together and kind of put it on every single sales page. I know it's a lot of work. It's, you know, it's easy when you have a bunch of errands hanging around, but like it makes a big difference. It really does. Yeah, because it kind of just it gets if you're anything like me, at least you're lazy and you're like, what is it coming out? Kind of thing? And I want to get to it quickly. Yeah and I don't think, you know, over art direct that necessarily, but just pepper pepper in some nice visuals to help kind of connect the dots because people are going to read this, they're going to be thinking, oh, he's really cool. I can see how this can help. But if you show them like some potential for what that might be, that goes a long way. Cool well, Dan. All right. Thank you. You're welcome. OK, so I'm going to I'm going to keep moving since we're like halfway through the hour here. See who's up next Abiy Ahmed Patel, are you with us here? No OK, we will come back. Abby lemon, you are our next caller. Not here, either. OK Marwan, hey, I'm here. There he is. All right. OK there we go, we can see you, we can hear you. Hello I'm going to post your site and chat pigeon pie. I like the alliteration. Tell us, tell us a little bit about the goals for the website. So in the process of redesigning our business and redesigning the way we present ourselves online, so it comes I'm looking for is to attract larger clients. A lot of the clients who do approach us are very small. They've got small budgets, small teams. I'd love to mature up a bit and get larger clients. And then the other one is for people to approach us, understanding that we do a lot of strategy and research work, not just design. So we do get clients who ask us, first up, the City Design outcome I'm looking for versus this is a problem that I'm trying to solve. So we want more of this is the problem. I'm trying to solve clients. So we need to do a better job of positioning ourselves as problem solvers versus designers. I say ourselves, but it's only me and I work with various freelancers. So for me, language positioning and do we feel premium enough? OK sorry, I need to swap out my headphones here, I'm done. So we share the screen. Well, I put on my grandson. OK, so girls are looking for bigger clients that have more money to spend. Right? so one of the challenges, I think one of the things I'm fixing in the new design is potentially muting a lot of the colors. And then potentially removing the references to entrepreneurs in our copy. So those are two things I already know I need to fix, but I'm looking for insights into anything else that really stands out and saying we work with small companies or, you know, this company is extremely small. OK sorry. Guys can you hear me? Yes sorry. Hang in there for a second, guys, I'm trying to figure out my headphone situation is not working at all. We can hear you fine. OK you guys give me a thumbs up, if you can hear me. Got it. Ok? can someone say something? No, can Yes. I can't hear a damn thing. Can you any of us try this? Use your left hand. OK can someone say something else? Yes, mike, check mike, check mike, check my check, my check, my check. It's the Greg Greg Greg. Maybe you should just use the chat. Can you copy? I don't know what's going on. I can apparently you guys can hear, I just can't, I can't hear anything so. Yeah, I'm trying speakers, too at this point, I'm like, I don't care as long as I can hear something, but I'm getting nothing. It's not good. If you don't mind all these fun to the chats in the meantime, Tracy, I agree the tan beige color is a personal pain of mine. I really loved it in the very early days. And when I look at it today, it does. It does seem small. You guys can hear me all right. I just I can't hear anyone else. Just see if you've got an output option somewhere on your computer. And if it's outputting, oh, you can't do anything, yeah, you have to type it. Now here we go. OK my check mate. Can you hear people? My my check mic check, my check, my check. My check. No if this works, my check, my check, my check, my check, my check, my check, can you hear us, greg? If you want a million dollars, say, I want a million dollars, I want a million. There you go. Checks in the mail, man checks in the mail. Greg, can you hear us? Yeah, OK, I can now, guys. I'm sorry about that success. All right, Jesus. OK back in business. All right, let me regain my composure here. We were talking about how the beige reads a little small and it's a struggle for pretty much any color palette. we'll keep it in your logo, but I don't think you have to have it in your main color palette. Agree all right. OK Merwin, I'm sorry for the hang up. Everyone, thank you for carrying the conversation. Well let's try to figure that out. Yeah OK, so let's try something different. So more on your goal is to attract bigger clients, to have more money to spend. And I think strategically, you're exactly right. You need to look expensive. You know, you need to look like you are worth the money that people that you want people to spend. So if you take a look at your site. How do you think this needs to change to reflect? I have my own ideas, but maybe, maybe you can kind of touching that a little bit and then we can also ask some other people to make some suggestions. Be curious to know. The first one is a change in the waiting of our colors. So at the moment, we use a lot of that beige color, which came from like this craft paper style we had back in the day. And then also muting a lot of the very colorful areas of the website. The next one was any references to entrepreneurs. At the moment, we even have photos of some of the entrepreneur entrepreneurs in small business owners. We even have some of the small business owners in our testimonials and our client page, so they will be completely ripped out. And maybe we find another way to feature if we'd like to feature them, because I think at this point I've got enough work with logic. It's not on the website. It's a bit outdated when it comes to the portfolio, but I've got enough work with larger companies now to be able to remove the smaller people. Another thing I'd change is. The case studies themselves. I want to show a little bit more depth in the work. And at the moment, I don't feel I'd be showing enough depth, so clients might not understand the depth that goes into the work. And I have gotten into writing short write UPS about each project, but I think I do need to do a better job in actually showing the creative expanded and really expanding on how different brands have been communicated as ensuring showing outcomes a little bit more clearly. I really love Demi's example and his case studies very clear. And I've got the case study back from the future, so that's going to be part of how we shape there. So those are the three top things for me. The colors. The mention of entrepreneurs or small businesses and then the way we present our case studies. yeah, I think, you know, looking expensive is such a big part of that, you know, I trust that once you're meeting with the client or talking, you can, you know, you have the power of sales to be able to close that deal, but to get them to call you to be like, hey, we have a million project and we want to talk to you about it. Yeah I mean, first impression is super important. OK, before I share anything, does anyone else want to perhaps share a thought like it can just be one thing that Marwan could do that? Yeah, I've got something. So your story about using that color of the paper Brown color is cool, but when we go and see it applied with just the color on a website, it kind of just looks like a website made in 2004. It's a pretty old looking website, and then you combine it with a serif typeface and it just looks pretty old school. So my little hack around that is just adding texture, you know, rather than just using a solid color. What if you actually bring in, actually take a picture of the Brown paper? If you look at it, there's all these little textures, a little noise to it. Maybe it's a little bit crumpled here and there, and that could be a pretty interesting backdrop as rather than just a flat color. And there was one like under work, one of the pieces of work open Africa. So if you click on work and click on Open Africa, that thumbnail of the book the thumbnail, the background of where the book is sitting on has so much color and texture. It's very visually appealing and interesting entails a lot of story just from the texture and the colors alone. Taking that same concept of applying it throughout the website, it's going to drastically change it and bring it to the modern age. And also, maybe you could still use the serif typeface, but maybe something that's a little bit more. Tasteful and refinement, and that will give you the perception of, oh, this is high. A high level brand or company that they look expensive, but they are doing amazing things and changing lives, so I better work with this company. That's my thought. Awesome I think you can achieve that. Look with a sansar or with a serif. If you went maybe back to 16 point verses 18 and add at least 1.6 or 160% letting, so you air it out a little bit, it's just that it's kind of shoved together and it's dark because you've got all those little serifs. So it's visually dense that I don't want to read it, like have to force myself to read it. So if you air it out a little bit. And then make it a tad bit smaller, but I wouldn't go below 16, I think it'll look good. And then, you know, you could try going to a sans serif. But I'm not super opposed to serif. If it's done, if it's the typography is styled beautifully. You know, very cool, I've never thought of that before. You're right, maybe the text is a bit squashed as well. yeah, I usually do 160 or 1.6 am wedding or line spacing. Yeah, if you just get nice type and don't even go too crazy with it, I like to stick with just one type, maybe two weights at most three weights, but two weights. And then you just size it nicely. And it is a game changer. If you could go and just use, you could do it with just color and your type and lay it out really nicely. And have something beautiful. And one other thing, one of the problems that with websites is that lots of people like to put a lot of information in there. That's really good when you start, but now it's just shaving, and I'm in that phase to where I just got to shave and make the copy a little bit more manageable and efficient and easier to digest. And then you add that really nice type and layer on top of it. It's going to be perfect. I also think you can Zoom on some of the details when you tell the story of its project and some of them leave them small, just, you know, it will make it more interesting. yeah, that's true. Get those images larger. I liked how and means example. He had these massive images of the design work. Yeah when I look at my, my examples, my images are really small on the left and it doesn't really take over the screen. I can't. The money shot some tension between all the images, and it would make the story more interesting. cool. So I have a couple more. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Hi OK. So I was also going to say like images much larger. Like, I've noticed that it's very popular now. Another thing is, I had a question about why you write the project size. Project scale to be exact, like it was wondering why, because it just seems it could be something it's subjective and it could maybe like, it's maybe in your mind what you think is small, like someone else will think, Oh wow, that's what I need. But if he sees that it's a small or larger medium like it might turn him away or it might convey smaller budgets, I don't know. initially, it was to help with sales face to face, because then I could very easily tell a client, if you look at the website and you look at the large projects, you'll get an idea of how complex this particular project might be, or if you look at the small projects. That's kind of what we are talking about here in this, in this call or in this meeting. OK I think over time, I definitely moved away from that kind of model. And because the way the site was built, we used that tag, you know, the size tag. I never, ever moved it off of the website just because once you remove the tag, that whole section gets blank, right? So I don't know if I'll use it on version 2 of the website, but it has helped in sales calls to explain to someone how complex a problem might be, and they can look at visual examples like, Oh OK, there's a lot of pieces to this project, and I could also mess with it and make a really small project and just call it large, like, whoa, you know, and that might actually so I don't know. It has helped, and I will investigate that. That's interesting. And one more thing about that bar that says our impact. So far. I think it's very impressive and you should make that much bigger and more prominent. Awesome that's difficult. It was difficult to keep up to date, so I think that might be a year and a half behind. So I'm actually thinking of removing it entirely. I mean, it seems like it's for good or for proof and testimonials like that kind of like here's how many projects we've worked on and how much change we've effected. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. You're right, maybe. Yeah, I need to give it a second chance and I need to put a process in place, so I actually do update it after. I have another thing for you. Where, where, where you have the bars for each project. I think it needs to be consistent, consistent color. It will just make it a little bit less. You know, it took because you have the pictures that are colorful. It's so boring to represent the different sizes, but in the future, there's hopefully going to be just one color on version 2 in that section, hopefully. So you're getting a lot of information thrown at you here. I'm sure it's a bit overwhelming. While everyone was giving you feedback and I thank you for that. I wanted to pull up something to share with you guys. And if you've hung around the future long enough, you've probably seen this at some point. But one of Chris's friends runs a farm design, and I can't think of anyone who does kind of case studies any better than these guys. I mean, they put a lot of work and a lot of effort into it. And one of the things that I mean other than like, yes, just beautiful information is amazing. And it looks, you know, like so professional and, you know, appealing. But no matter what the project is, they all look of equal importance of equal weight of equal. You know, value, I guess, is what I'm looking for. You know, and that's just from images. So the way that they're choosing to display and show and share the work is it's just so stunning, you know? And in terms of looking and feeling expensive, you know, they're certainly not Apple. They don't have that tech vibe, but for whatever it is they do, I'm like, these guys are pros like they. They absolutely, absolutely nail it. Um, yeah, it's pretty pictures and everything, but they're, you know, they're presenting themselves in a way that tells me they care about everything, they care about the littlest detail there is, there's nothing, there's nothing too big or too small, nothing that they. Can't handle. And they'll kind of essentially treat every, every project with care, and I think there's a level of, you know, professionalism and presentation that people come to expect when at least they're going to spend that kind of money. And in terms of branding. At least, you know, and the value that they'll get in return. So Marwan, when I think, you know. When you're looking through your website and your work and the way you're presenting yourself. Yes, comparison is the thief of joy, but it might be who you to find some competitors or people at least you admire, who are working at the level that you aspire to work at. And take a look at how they're presenting themselves. What are what are they doing? What are they saying? Because I'm not too concerned with the color, and I actually think your type is pretty great, but I don't get the feeling of. You know, high level, expensive taste. You know, I think there's a certain amount of refinement that comes with that. But if you're doing, you know, branding and graphic design, especially, I think it's also just, you know, people start to look at the quality of the work. And a lot of that is just presentation. So I'm sorry, I forgot your name, but I'm with, you know, the idea of removing project scale because yeah, I think that can work both for and against you. I think every project should look like. It's the most important and you've put the most effort into it. You know, if it's not and you can't do it, then maybe cut it that maybe it's not the right project to share for the clients you are looking for. Yeah, and I think you have great information here. You know, I love these like these mockups are really nice. I agree. I think if you make them more of the kind of hero hero part of the page that might help with presentation. Wow factor. Because I think ultimately that's sort of what you're looking at in terms of how to present yourself and look and feel more expensive. I know someone mentioned in chat, you know, having a client quote with like big name clients you've worked with. Absolutely I think that's huge. Anything you can do to kind of prove that you can be trusted with a large budget with a very important idea. You know that you will kind of shepherd whatever project they give you into existence with, you know, with flawless and, you know, perfect execution kind of thing. I love your testimonials down here. These are great. You know, the kind of transition of just having all your work up and then trying to really identify your target is tricky because you have to kill your darlings to a degree. So I have a feeling there will be some projects that maybe aren't suited for the clients that you're looking to work with. Now that you may have to, you may have to hide from the website. So that's my two cents. But I think, you know, looking for some examples to kind of aim for. Would certainly help to just in terms of, you know, presenting your work and making it look and kind of. Feel at the level that you're aiming for that you want to be working at. There's confidence that's absolutely true, and form design is actually one of the benchmarks that I'm using for the next website or the next redesign. And one thing I really loved about them was that even with this one project I have, I think it was the logo for these milkshakes or smoothies. And I looked at the projects. The first time and I was like, wow, all the projects are so deep and massive. And then I was speaking to another designer about it the other day. And then we looked at one of the projects and then I realized, like, while I'm explaining it to somebody else, that project I was looking at, one was smoothies. It was only a logo design or packaging design, but they had a full page of beautiful mockups. And I've got some projects that are very small projects, and I never, ever thought of expanding those mockups out. Like even if it's just a poster form design, for instance, would mock up that post and do detailed shots of that post and have a full page of it versus just one shot of it with two shots of it. So that's really great and I'd love I'd love to be able to figure that out. I do have the case study back now, so I'm hoping to jump into that and really start pushing our mockups much further than we currently do. And even, I guess, do mockups that weren't put into the real world or put into execution. Sometimes the client has budget constraints. So they don't execute on everything. But I look at Farm design. I'm sure some of those things weren't executed in the real world. Some of them were mock UPS for ideas, and I think we have creative flexibility there. Oh, so I agree with you. Thank you for. Yeah thank you for these examples. I'm going to check it out. Yeah, I think the purpose of that kind of thing is not necessarily to reflect reality, because sometimes reality is kind of boring. The goal with that stuff is to get people really excited and you want to show them the potential and the possibility. You know, when we do logo designs, we don't just say, OK, here's what your logo looks like Black or white. We'll put it on a t-shirt. We'll put it on a business card. We'll put it in like 10 different mockups and kind of present this kind of package to them. And, you know, we're not concerned whether or not they want to make t-shirts, so they want to make water bottles or anything. It's just like we want to show them like what this logo will look like in everywhere in their brand. You know where it might appear. And that kind of helps create a holistic picture of, you know, how the logo will, will, will look because you know, it's looking at a logo on a OK without, you know, some kind of context. It's kind of hard to judge it. It's really like, I like it, I don't. But y, you know, like, shows it big shows, it's small. If it's cropped it, if it's like printed on the side of your building or on a wall or something, you know, and that's all luckily very easy to do in Photoshop. So you can kind of create that kind of view for them, which I found really helps. Cool OK. Thanks for. Thanks for sharing that, Marlin. I know we're out of time, but I had some technical problems, so I want to make sure we get through everyone who shared, so those of you who do want to stick around, you are more than welcome to. Shane Moran, are you with us today? Yeah, that's me. How you doing? OK, so we'll kind of we'll move a bit quicker through stuff. But no, yeah, I feel good about it. The link you want to give us a little bit of a context for how to look at this. Yeah, I'm just getting a bit of feedback. There's a lot of audio of someone else talking at the moment. I hear that too are doing corporate really called to do or supposed to do. And so I feel everyone's here. Please unmute yourself. Thanks OK. So all right, Shane, here I'm going to share my screen here. Everyone has a link. Quick, quick goals for your website. What are you trying to accomplish? The oh, sorry. OK I think yeah, how did you meet it? Go ahead. Yeah, I'm still here. Sent out there. It makes me the most happy or what I wish I knew it was. Yes who is that? And it's. OK oh, sorry, guys. Shane, unmute, OK. Translating your feelings into something that's Oh my God. Where is that coming from, shane? He's got a tab open with the video going. There you go. I'm so sorry, but that was totally me. OK, so we're back on track here. Reshare OK, that was going crazy. All right. Shane grand designs. So what's the goal for the site? What are you struggling with? And let's talk about how we can help. So I just started off going freelance as of March there, and I previously had a Wix web page and just completely wiped out. And started clean slate WordPress using a template. And that I'm just trying to like, showcase work. And I think a lot of points that were discussed previously, especially with Marilyn and lots of helpful pointers trying to get a higher end. Clients to work with. Am I doing just showcasing my work in a better way? It feels a bit like lonely, the work there. It's kind of sparse if you check it out, and maybe I need more content in terms of copy. And yeah, and I've been focusing on social media a bit as well, but I think it definitely needs a lot more work. I'm a bit overwhelmed because I think it needs loads of work if you get me. OK, well, I guess what would you change? Well, let's start there, and before that, maybe what is the goal? Is the goal? Are you trying to attract more clients, attract different clients? Yes showcase work in a good way. Clients visit my web page, be it from networking in real world events, business cards, stuff like that. But I would like obviously to just get people to get in touch real quick because they're motivated by my work looking cool. Really? If you can. Yes so that's tricky what you just said, you want people to get in touch because they're motivated by how great your work looks. And I think to quote Chris a long time ago, but good work should just be a given. Right so we're going to assume that you can do the job that your work is up to par. Are there ways you can help present it better? Yes, of course. But but let's assume. You are you are great at what you do and people will pay you to do it. I think, you know, like one of the real selling points of design. And in terms of business is like, what is it, what is it going to do for the business? How will how will it help other than, you know, people oftentimes come in and they're like, I need a new logo, ok? Why? like what? You just are tired of it or what's going on? So I think what at least on the landing page, I see a kind of missing is some sort of context for why it is. You're doing this and how it helps people. I definitely just kind of agree with what you're saying there, I definitely feel there's a lack of value getting across the value that my services would give to prospective clients for her stuff like that, I guess. So I need to communicate better in a more clear sense of what value I can add to problems that companies face. Yeah and I think, you know, you don't have to reinvent the wheel here. It could make it up from scratch. There's there is a lot of folks that share this, this, you know, this dream and this vision. So I think it's just figuring out how to communicate, communicate these things in your voice. You know, as Shane, so you say, helping business share passion through visual communication, that is a great start. Like, OK, I'm going to click Learn More because it's about you, which makes sense, ok? But yeah, I think anything you can do to, like, bring a potential client into the world of thinking about how design is a benefit for them. So I'm just going to kind of scroll through and in real time, give you my thoughts here. Thanks so we are. Let's see. Well, initially when I got here, I was like got a little dizzy because I was like, Oh my god, what am I looking at? So I know for some people it seemed like the background video didn't play right away. Yeah, but I think your landing page above the fold, which is what we're looking at right now, the most important piece of real estate on your website. And so right now we have your logo and then we have a kind of video that's a bit abstract in the background sans any context. So I'd probably rethink what you have here, just because one of the two things is going to happen. One, people are going to see this and sort of. Not understand what's going on, you know, and so they'll have to scroll down if they stick around to get to anything or to the video won't load at all and they really won't have any context and they might think something's broken even, I'm not sure. Yes, it's I don't know, I think having some kind of greeting, having some sort of like, I mean, even just kind of living this up there. So immediately people land here and they know, you know what it is you have to offer and the fact that it's even going to benefit their business, something as simple as that might help because, right? I don't know. I venture. I guess this probably isn't doing it for you, right right now. So just consider that as we get down, like, OK, here's this is good. This is better, helping businesses share their past communication. OK, that's great. I think that's sort of what you do. And if we go back to the concept of people really care about why, then they want to know how then they're interested in what. So you're kind of missing the first two components of that. So why, why and how? Right so I mean, even as I'm looking through this. I am, to be honest, I'm like, are you a logo designer or graphic designer? Maybe you're a videographer because I see a video here, so I'm a little kind of. Confused about that kind of stuff, so something to consider. No, no, that's really cool, Greg. It's like initially, yeah, I think it's just focus, I guess is primary, but I get what you mean, especially with the video. I think I've just over tartare and now it's become this big thing with loads of gimmicks in that kind of sense. What do you mean? They're more focus would be priority, I guess, especially in the first important seconds of someone visiting the web page straight away. It would be design, logo or branding, but I think just to formulate that in a cohesive way, I guess would be obviously best. OK, so as I'm scrolling down, I see you have more information here. So this, you know, logo design and direction branding. So this would be the how right? So what you do is, is this right here? These are like concrete examples of what? This is the how, you know, so even if you were to kind of rearrange structurally some things you might see a benefit, you know, you kind of forget the terms like maybe a story story page. I forget I'm probably butchering that, but you want to walk people through your world and get them, get them in line with, you know, the way you work, how you work, why you do this and how you can help them, essentially. So you kind of have to tell them, tell them this story. So right now. We have a cold open. I'm like, OK, I don't know what and like here. I'm like, OK, I know what, I understand what, but it's at this point. It's just a portfolio site down here. You get a little more specific where it's like, oh, OK, so some of them might be like, well, yeah, I need branding help. That's that's what I'm looking for. But this doesn't necessarily go anywhere, and you don't kind of talk much more about that. And then my story is so this is like a little kind of. So I would almost like invert your landing page, you know, you probably don't necessarily need this or you could put your logo in your head or somewhere. But tell me, tell me something about why you're here, why you have this website, why design is important and how it will help it build a business. Yeah then tell me how you do it through branding, through logo design, through consultation, you know? I might unless you kind of make a really nicely laid out grade, I might try to simplify this a little bit because a lot of it's a lot to offer, you know? OK how? Yeah, and then what and then you're like, OK, and then here's proof of that, you know, and am I crazy or did you have testimonials down there too? I do. They're underneath that little. So so that's great. I think, you know, moving those up to so it's like, I'm a real person. I care about design. And I know how to help your business. I do it by branding, by helping with designing logos and anything design related essentially, right? Here's what my clients have to say. Testimonials and me. Oh, I'm excited about creating working with people who want to achieve their goals. You know, let's get in touch ready to take your brand to the next level. So I think sort of restructuring and, you know, focusing on the communication up front a little bit. Yeah, some lead with the problem. You solve it. And who for? Yep, exactly right. Yeah, I think some of the guys mentioned that Simon sinek, do you need to invest a bit more time into him again? Yeah, Yeah. Cool all right, Shane, Thanks for sharing that with us. I know I'm moving a lot faster now. I'm just trying to be sensitive to people's. No worries. Thanks very much, Greg. Cheers yeah, you're welcome. OK, so the last one I have on the list is I'm going to mispronounce your name for us, amser with new entity. Are you with us here? I'm not hearing anything. OK, so I think we probably have time for one more if someone has something they'd like to go through. So if you do have a site you want to look at with everyone really quick posting a chat, I can do one more. Otherwise, we'll wrap up for the day. It's kind of go into your chat here. He juice. OK Jacob, for the win. All right, so oh, OK, now they're all coming in. Shoot OK, I'll stick around for a few minutes. I don't mind. OK Jacob, exactly. Do you want to give us some context for how to look at your site? Hi, can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, we can hear you. Great awesome. So its e-commerce website is plug-ins for other after effects. So the main goal is to get more sales. Oh, nice. OK this is something I'm very familiar with. Right did you see it before? I've not seen a juice before. OK OK so if you want to ask any questions. Yeah, so right now, so the goal is to obviously make more sales. Yeah is there anything particular you're struggling with right now? Well, our convergence, I think below average, it's like 0.4 percent, but I think mostly because we have a free, free country and a lot of people come for the free bargain. Got it. OK, so I'm just going to click around a little. Um, OK, cool, then you have videos for each one. That's good, that makes sense. You know, I feel like I have seen this before. That I'm looking at it. OK, so I guess more of a question, but right here, is this a product the same time for Mac or windows? It just is the name of the company and the download is a free plugin, so it has like 100 presets. Oh, OK. Yeah and so is this. So this is sort of like the core product. And then you buy add-ons down here like these different buttons? Yeah, Yeah. So once you download it, you can see all the products inside. You can preview all the content of the product since I got it. OK well, I mean, as someone who has spends money on this kind of stuff from time to time. I would say, you know, you're doing most of it right, like we just like we want to see what the thing is and what it does and then decide if we want to pay for it, like all this stuff makes sense. What might help is clarifying how this works. So, you know. Like you, you download this free plugin and you get some cool, free stuff with it, a sort of the base, right? And then you're kind of you're in within this plugin and it's a whole library of cool things at your disposal. And then if you want, you can upgrade an add on new bundles later and like, sort of tell that story a little bit better because, yeah, it on the surface, at least, it seems like this might be one product. And then these are other products, but I wouldn't necessarily know they're connected right away. You know what I mean? Yeah so maybe we could create a video promo explaining in general or just about. Yeah, Yeah. I think just something as simple as like, you could have a video, but you could also have another section. It's like a juice is. Then you just kind of explain what it is. I think that would go a long way. Just provide a little context for how to look at the product and also kind of make it clear that everything is connected. They all kind of like, OK. Yeah and cool, interesting, OK, I'm going to check this out later on my own time. OK thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. So let's see. I'm just going to go through chat and see. Maybe we have time for one more. OK, Roxy. Exquisite I see that right. I don't know if I said that right? Roxy, are you here? Can you tell us a little bit about your website? Oh, OK. So this is the website for business. It's a motion media Design Studio doing work for big and sustainable and ecological brands. OK, I'm going to need you to say that again after I pull this website up because I'm like, whoa, oh, how come I'm getting a. Yeah, am I on this wrong link? Greg, it's corrected in the chat. Oh, OK. OK it had an extra s in it in that first one. Oh all right, thank you. And OK, here it is. Oh, cool animation. All right, I'm going to share the screen. All right. Sorry, roxy, can. Can you say that one more time? Exquisite what just explain what the website is. Yeah, we are an animation studio doing work for vegan, sustainable and ecological businesses. Wow, that's so niche. That's really cool. Thanks and the. The real. OK, so you got the real like. Cool specialized content combines design, animation and video cinema. Very cool. Abilities, projects, testimonials. OK, so what are you struggling with the website right now? Is there anything you wish you did better or like a different result? I think that, well, right now I'm doing the capability stack because I noticed that a lot of leads come and they directly tell me, what's your price? And you cannot just reply on an email, a price and even a call like on one call, you have to like, discover what they need, but they don't even exactly. Even if they go through the capabilities page, it just a little like, I don't know. I feel like I need to put somewhere that either there will be a capability. Just so also, they understand how much work it means to do motion design because it's not like we're selling to agencies that understand it. But businesses that actually have no idea on it. Right? Yeah. So that and I think my funnel is a ghost. OK, so I'm going through. No, I haven't worked on the final, I want to watch the calls, but you know, it's like I just need to clone myself to do everything. We started only in September. So this was great. OK I just want to look at a case study or two. OK I mean, I think the site is very clear. You know, like in terms of. Presentation, I mean, you're covering all bases as someone who works in illustration, in animation, you're answering a lot of questions, I think before they ask, which is great. Yeah, I mean, other than, you know, expanding a capability stack that you kind of share it, it might. I don't know. It might help to have some sort of process explanation. So I understand the why up here. Super clear. I think it's great. So someone shares this, this belief with you. They're I mean, they're going to be on board right away. They are. That's the thing. I get replies like we want to especially like, we love that you are. You share our values and this is something that they struggle with other agencies. Um, and the testimonials, you know, testify. But it's, you know, these the people and the testimonials, they're also very recognized in the niche. They're like leaders in the niche. So it's pretty. It's cool. I mean, yeah, it seems like you have a lot of. A lot of things working for you. So is the problem the funnel building? Like, I think like conversions, I get the emails and they're like, Oh yeah, we know what you do and we need to know some prices. And then I tell them well or merely a minimum level of engagement these days, and they're like, oh, OK, you know, we'll let later or like somebody that was just launching like, yeah, we just don't know what we want yet. So we love to have to be in touch with you. You know, and I wish that right. Then I can just like, well, I plan on having the capability stack this week and just send it to them. But it will be great if I don't need to have this conversation, which I will still try to email as many people because it's been very positive. But also that people that just land on the page like somehow others having trouble getting needs. Yeah I mean, that's tough could and you could try to capture your emails and follow up with people that way, like if you have something. To share with them, that's sort of in line with their values and relates to what you do. But I mean, I don't know. It really looks like you're doing a lot of things, right? At the end of the day, you know, it's like, do you do these clients that you're attracting? Are they the right business fit for you? Like, value wise, perhaps. But do they have the, you know, budget and money to support what you provide? That's that's a different question, and that's a different thing. I'm really well-connected here in Berkeley, and I think that in Berlin we have a lot of startups. And that's the thing, like a lot of startups are not ready to spend that much. The motion graphics and a lot of the places the big brands are in California. So I just need to move. I don't know, like working with someone from Berlin is like, oh, that's cool and appealing. I get it. Well, a client of us, he's in the she She's in Vancouver, so we have no issue with your time zone. Yeah, so I think it's just I think I'm just very impatient. Yeah, there's lead time with some of these things. We've waited a year, you know, for clients to come back and then we ultimately finally work together. It's just it can take a long time. Yeah, the clients I have here, all of them. It's been months of talking. Oh Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. One of the people who can afford you and those who can't, you know? So you know. They are more and ask, are you losing the lead after they contact you? Yeah, so you guys talk and then what happens? They just go, see you after that or no, they say, stay in touch. This is the emails and, you know, like but. Now that's when I realized, OK, I need a SEC because I cannot go and tell them, OK, so what do you need and what you want like? Like I could I can make appointments, but sometimes they're just super busy, like it's been two weeks that people take to reply an email, you know, realize they're just maybe, maybe they are starting out. Maybe they already have their agencies. So it's also trying to replace their agencies because they might have already. I have no idea. Yeah, I mean, sometimes that's how it goes to, you know, I think in terms of website, it looks great. I'm telling my partner and he's a programmer. So I've been directing it and he's working on it. And we had somebody from the program, give us some really great insights. Sasuke oh, very cool. Yeah, just a little bit. Yeah I don't know that I can make any suggestions other than, you know, if you have a kind of vegan centric, I don't know, mailing list or something like that to be able to stay in touch with people. That makes if that makes sense for the clients you're tracking, I'm not sure that it does. But beyond that, I think you have more of like a sales problem. If anything, you know, you're getting people to come in. But then there's, you know, I don't want to do this like advertising on social media. You pause the video and then it follows you forever. And I hate those like, you know, like me or like work, you know, then we work like, what if what if, then? I mean, for me, they are annoying. I that's why I'm afraid. I don't want to be annoying, you know? Sure sure. Because somebody like right now, everybody will have a little video of me following social media and they'll be like, Oh my god, I'm crazy, but don't be annoying. I mean, I hate to say like, but it's repetitive, you know, like this. That's why I don't like it, because it's repetitive and it just follows it forever. Yeah, maybe that's only in my head, so? Well, for what it's worth, you know, if there's anything I know about business, it's that you have to try, fail, learn, repeat, you know, except the trick is to not repeat the same thing over and over because the chances of getting a different result is so. I don't know if that's the right thing to do for you, but it might be something to try because if it does get you the results you're looking for. Then there's at least something to learn from that when it works for you. Thought of doing some micro content on campaign like 30 days stuff from. Yeah oh, someone, Yeah. I trying to read the comments, but I can't, yeah, get a specific date and time to follow up, not leave it open ended. That's a great suggestion, too. You know, I mean, people are busy, it's going to take time, especially if you're dealing with businesses. Agencies are usually like, we have a project. We're ready to go. Let's go now. And you know, businesses don't operate like that. They want to get to know you. They want to. They have to kind of really plan and talk with teams and teams and make sure it's going to work. And it takes time. There's a lot of lead time. This is sort of beyond the scope of what I'm prepared to talk about today. But I think, you know, you have a sales, a sales issue on your hands, so maybe you bring that to the group. There's a lot of smart people in there who are probably more experienced in that than what we're talking about today web. So I might help you.

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