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Sales Objections: How to Build Trust and Rapport with a Raging Bull

It's really important in conversations to constantly be building trust and rapport. And the way that we do that is by understanding and listening and acknowledging what's going on.

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All right. And I'm going to open up this deck here, which you don't really need, but I'm going to have it open anyways. So this is called four, and it's the last call that we're doing for a little while on objection handling. Last week, we I just as a quick recap, since there are so many new people and some people were able to participate and some people weren't. There are two main things to ideas I want to share with you about the Socratic six, which is how to respond to client objections. One is called the raging bull, which is the client. The prospect has a lot of emotions. You've got to stop the sales cycle, pull the emergency brake and say, well, what's going on? You have to process the feelings and emotions. Chris Voss refers to this as labeling the emotion. So some of these like angry, sad or whatever. You just need to say, it sounds like you're having a tough moment right now. Tell me more about what's going on. And so a lot of times you get on a call and the client will sound like they're in a rush or they're angry at you and you're like, I just picked up the phone. It couldn't have been anything that I've done. So the first part is you assume it's your fault and then you start to respond and you don't respond in the best way because it's only yelling at you and it makes you feel bad and makes you feel like you've done something wrong. So then you respond with your hands up to kind of enter into that conversation in a fight mode. And we don't want to do that. So when our clients call on you, it's angry, sad or whatever disappointed, you just have to take a moment and be human and say, what's going on? I sense that there's something that might be bothering you. Is there anything that I've done that's agitated you? And then it makes the other person stop, stop dead in their tracks, they forget about the conversation. And then they start talking about what's going on. And then you're going to make that connection. And it's really important in our conversation to constantly be building trust and rapport. And the way that we do that is by understanding and listening and acknowledging what's going on. My main priority is to acknowledge and understand, like a good therapist like our friend Wesley little, who says that just try to understand and acknowledge. That's it. So if you're in a clubhouse, call with me. And somebody is like trying to play a really tough client. If you if you can get really good at listening in on that and forget that you're on a stage and that it's a debate and there's a winner and a loser and just focus in on that emotion, I think you'll do really, really well. And I miss the opportunities from time to time. Because they're there when the client tells you, like when with my role played with jewel, which she did a great job, by the way, where's jewel? There she is, hi, jewel. So in my conversation with jewel on clubhouse, jewel said. Chris? yeah, I'm going to need some testimonials, I need to talk to some of your previous clients to see what you've done for them, and I'm thinking like three, four, maybe like 10. Now, my brain wasn't that smart in that moment, because Jewell is saying something like who needs 10 referrals, who has time to call 10 people, really? I mean, three calls in jewel doesn't know there's something wrong. So the unspoken objection was, Chris, I've been burned before, man. And I'm not going to be a fool twice. So I need more information. So every time a client gives you an objection rather than seeing the objection for what it is. Try to see beneath it what's below it and below it is some emotion, usually pain. There's something else that's going on there, and so they need more information, so every time the client says this is too expensive, why would anybody pay this? It sounds like you're not worth it. You're overcharging me and you're trying to rip me off and prove yourself right now. And you have to do this mental jujitsu thing when you hear that you have to twist it and you have to turn it into. I need more information from you. I'm not sure. So that was like a big note for me with Joel was like, I didn't pick up on that and it would have been an awesome learning moment for the entire group. If I just stop and like jewel, you're asking for 10, that's kind of unusually high. Did something happen before where you feel like you need to have 10 referrals? And then maybe jewel then say, you know what, chris? I can't tell you how many times somebody approached me. Just promise the look a really good thing. And then not delivered. I'm like, yeah, doesn't that suck? I'm so sorry that that's happened to you before. What can I do to make sure it doesn't happen to you now? And that would have changed the entire conversation. And I'm sharing this in a very real and vulnerable way in that fudge. I think I'm pretty good at doing this thing. But I missed it, totally missed it. So that was a Raging Bull right there. It didn't sound like one because Jewell is very calm. So the Raging Bull isn't always like emotion transmitted through energy. It's emotion motion transmitted through words and phrasing and being guarded. So look out for that. And when you see it, acknowledge it, and it changes the entire conversation, and it happens when you come from a place of curiosity. So your number one default mindset in most of these client sales calls is I just want to learn, I want to know. And the only way I can learn is by asking questions and not talking. This is critical. And the kind of question I ask is something that you'll continue to work on for the rest of your life. But I want you to get better at it, and I think you just by doing the things that I ask you to do today and on previous calls. It will dramatically increase your ability to build rapport with your client, with friends, with colleagues, employees and managers. It's a basic communication skill. And it's about watching your tone and really tuning in to what's happening on the other side. So in order for us to do that, we have to be a lot more objective than neutral. We have to stop thinking about the things that we want in our lives. We focus on the other person. OK, everybody understand. Suddenly, I want you to visualize this. OK all right. The raging bull, it's called the Raging Bull for a reason. The bull sees red. The bull charges. The bull can't even help itself. It always feels like it's angry and you always have to be careful. So visualize that bull, you're the matador in the ring. And when you see it, drop the flag, don't run. Go talk to the bull. Acknowledge the ball, it's powerful. And it's angry. And calm that bull down. OK, Stephanie, I think had recommended this book during one of our posts, clubhouse calls. It's called vocabulary cartoons. I say that word power, that's you, right, Stephanie. Yeah OK. Because I was sharing mnemonics and how I'm able to remember things. And I find this book to be quite interesting. And the way that the book teaches you words, is it tells you the meaning of the word. It has a link and it shows an obscure, not obscure but absurd drawing. It attaches the meaning of words to crazy things. OK And then it tells you three ways to use that word. And then by that time, I think it's hard, nearly impossible. To forget. Does anybody know what the word abstruse means, abstruse besides stephanie? I don't either. So most of the words in the book, I know. And there's probably 10, 15% that I do not know, abstruse abstruse, it's a weird word, a word you will not use in everyday language. So the first thing that the book tells you to do is think about a moose abstruse sounds like a moose. Abstruse, sounds like a moose. OK And then has this goofy drawing of three moose. I don't know what the plural moose is. Three moose and the two of them are like one moose is saying they don't look like that, and the other moose is like, got his foot in like a warm pocket of bucket of water. And he's reading a book and he's got a scarf and a hat. So he definitely stands out, right? There's three moose. And then there's one sitting there like he's very different than the other two, and the other two were saying to his friends, consider Mike Mike the moose to be very abstruse. And the meaning of abstruse is hard to understand. Hard to understand. So abstruse is like a moose who's hard to understand. Just remember that two moose are talking to each other and Mike's the weird moose, and he's sitting there reading a book, putting his feet up, sitting in a chair when obviously that's not what moose do. So the examples are chemistry is an abstruse subject of study for many students. The scientists had many abstruse theories about atomic interactions. Elizabeth's direction to the party were very abstruse. Abstruse, the moose is hard to understand. Now, there's a good chance if you're really paying attention right now, you'll never forget the meaning of abstruse. At abstruse is the moose that's hard to understand, hard to understand. Now I find the teaching method in the book quite interesting because this is a person who's very interested in pedagogy and teaching styles and methodologies and theories. If I tell you the Raging Bull. Well, I try to pick an image that's very clear. So I want you to imagine yourself the matador, the client is the bull and the bull is not happy. And if you hold that red flag, it's coming for you. That's right. Exactly and Lee. So the more visual. You can make it, the better the stranger. The analogy, the better. OK, so the Raging Bull until you temper the raging bulls emotion. Until you address it, the bull will not be calm and trying to talk to the bull while the bull is still angry is a dangerous thing. Those are pointy horns that will rip your body apart. Calm the bull down. Bull, are you angry? Well, I sense that something's bothering you. Bull, I sense that you're in a hurry. Well, have you been hurt before? Well, has something happened in the past that's making you feel this way? Bull, did I say something to trigger this response? OK the bull will calm down because the pool is like, wait a minute, I'm not this way. Oh my god, maybe I am this way. I'm sorry. And here's the opportunity that opens up for you when you address the raging bull, they gave you a piece of information that you would not normally have. And if you think about it. Three to five of your competitors are talking to the exact same client. If you get. Any new piece of information? That the others do not. That is a competitive advantage. That's why they say listening. Is the competitive advantage. An unfair competitive advantage? Listening of all things. So you ask the question and then you listen. Everybody understand that, do we do we want to practice this? And Lee saying, yes, I see a few people saying yes, I see a lot of cold faces look at me right now. And what do you think? Should we do it? Yeah, this is great. OK Yeah. All right. There aren't that many people in here, so I think we can do this. I think we can do this. So what I would love again, and this is the tricky part, a lot of time I try to coordinate this too carefully and it took too much time. I'm going to do this differently. This time. I'm just going to say, you know, you guys just randomly go into rooms, OK, I'm going to pair you up. I'm just going to send you into rooms. And one person decides like, I will play the raging bull, and I want you to think about the time that a client was kind of upset at you, whether it's your fault or not, doesn't matter. I need you to be angry. I need you to give the other person a quick setup like I usually do web design and I'm going to play the client, ok? And if the person is an architect or an accountant or sales professional, it doesn't matter. Your whole thing is to try to understand where the feelings are coming from without further provoking it. Use non-judgmental language. Use non-violent language. Just ask open ended questions. Be mindful of your tone. Be mindful that you're not trying to make the other person feel at fault, because that's not going to help you at all. Is everybody clear on the directions one person will be the raging bull? They will give the context really quickly. I do identity design, I do brand strategy, I do marketing, I do videos, I do photos for weddings. Whatever it is that you do, you tell the other person, then, now you're going to become the client with a strong emotion. Hey, Ali, you wanted to say something. No, OK, so after the strong emotion, then you say something, you know, like you just did and you react on that. And when you're ready, you just shift to the other person or, OK, let's do this. I'll take a volunteer. I'll do it right now. I'll show you how I do it, and then you guys are going to go off and do it. Is that OK with that help? Yeah OK. Who like who's had a lot of like, really bad client calls or the person just like a raging inferno meets a tornado? You and I have done this before. Hey yes, we have. We do it. Do it. Yeah, let's do it. Ashley, your dance partner. Almost too good. I'm scared. Sorry I'm starting to get my bleep. Like, OK, go easy on the girl. Are we doing a presentation design? Sure, let's do. Am I the client? You're you're the client. Yeah, I need you to be. So the reason why I play a poor client because most of my clients are good, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I can never be the crazy clients that you guys see. I know you have these clients anymore because of this. So oh, OK, that's good to know. OK, hold on. Let me write this down. Presentation design give me a little bit more context. What is what I'm trying to sell you? I'm just curious. Try to sell me a. Investor presentation. Yes no, try to sell me a sales deck. Sales, deck, sales, deck, sales deck, miscellaneous sales deck. For 30,000 30,000. It is. OK that's just for context, I'm not really going to try and sell you the part of this exercise is I'm not going to try and sell you, but I thought about this earlier was in the shower is thinking about how can we make these discussions more meaningful to you? I would love everybody to do this. Get out of a piece of paper or Wacom tablet, something to write with. I want you to try to diagram this call. I would love for you to share it inside the program under general discussions, I'll create a thread call number one. 84 Overcoming the objection. OK And then you guys post your diagram. And I'm about to post one of my diagrams because jewels are like, you throw your notes away, yeah, because they don't really make sense. But here's one of my diagrams of a conversation yesterday on how to provide a price guarantee. So you'll see the thread start, and most likely, Ashley will throw me something. And you just write it in a bubble and then you'll see the questions being asked and the different path that it can take if you can diagram an investor presentation making the presentation. Yeah oh, we're back to investor presentation. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Why'd you change? Because I'm sitting here thinking, you know what? Like the specific ways, like once you said the word guarantee, that's a really good way that we can treat this. Don't use that one. Yeah, really? OK, here's the rule the rule of role plays. You you don't break role play. You don't break out of character. So once we start, actually can't say, hey, Chris, I want to ask you a question because it no, no real conversations. I'm going to do that. Nobody gets to say timeout. Wait, what were you supposed to say? And what was that until I say and scene, just like we're in a movie, everybody pay attention. I want you to try to diagram this call. You're going to need it. Everybody needs to do this. You'll learn from this. And then when we spin you off into breakout rooms, you'll have a chance to practice, OK, so you kick us off like ring ring. Hello Let's go. Let's go straight to it. Ring ring. Hey, hey, how are you? I'm good. What's on your mind, ashley? Oh, no, actually, I got your name from just a forum that I was reading on venture capital and stuff. And I need AI need a presentation. OK, I need a presentation. All right, I got go. Yeah Wow. Somehow, I made it onto a forum. That's pretty cool. Yeah, thank you. Yeah Yeah. OK, so tell me more about this presentation that you need. I just need a PowerPoint really like it's not really a presentation like I just need a PowerPoint. Like, let's be honest, I need. I've already got like, this is my like, I've got this like business over here, and we are. We're doing really well. I just need a PowerPoint. Like 15 slides, so like it can't be much. Yeah, that's what I need. Yeah, OK. It sounds to me like you're in a little bit of a rush or maybe you got something else on your mind. that the case? No, we're just we're doing. We're doing a raise or doing an IPO. And it's just, you know, like, I've got a I've got a ton of shit on my mind. Yeah, I'm watching the market. It's a good day for the markets. So Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I just need AI need a presentation. OK, so you're not in a rush? Yeah well, at two weeks, two weeks. OK does that sound like enough time to put together a presentation for an ipo? I should be. I'm working all the time. We got to get this done. There's no choice. This is what it is. This is how it goes. So we got two weeks. We got a $2 million raise. Yeah, two weeks. OK Yeah. Let me just quickly summarize here. You're not in a rush. You need something done in two weeks to raise $2 million because you're not. You have an IPO on the horizon. Is that right? Yeah yeah, we. We started where we are, where we should have been doing this a little while ago. We tried. Oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, any more I've. What did you try? What happened? Oh, no, we've got like we've got the deck here, it's good, it's a story, so we've got the deck, it's we've got everything here. We've got three guys out there right now like pushing it. Yeah so anyways, I just need like I just need a PowerPoint file. Can you do that for me? Absolutely absolutely. Do you already have a PowerPoint file? We've got the content. We've had a bunch of guys look over it. So like it doesn't need anything. We just need a PowerPoint file. How much it what's your rate for a PowerPoint file? OK, I'd love to tell you, but I feel like you're going to fall out of your chair when I tell you how much I charge. And the way that you're describing this is you need to file everybody has a PowerPoint file. Is there any objective criteria as to what this PowerPoint file is going to do for you? Because Yeah. So all the guys that I'm working with, like all the bankers, they're all telling me like, hey, just hand me the Powerpoint, right? Yes just hand me the PowerPoint. But our PowerPoint looks like shit, honestly. OK that's the thing. Our PowerPoint looks like absolute garbage. Do you feel like it feels like it looks like garbage or did something to the whole thing was like garbage? Oh, no. Yeah and we've got two weeks to do this. How does that make you feel that it looks like garbage? Well, we just got to get fixed, that's it, I just need to get this fixed. So can do that. I think so, but. I would love to tell you a little something here, and please tell me how you feel about it, which is this whole time, I'm just feeling like you're in a rush, like you can't wait to get off the phone. And then for me to try to make this for you, make it work and help you raise your $2 million. I'm going to need time to talk to someone to understand your likes and your dislikes. Maybe where you think the meat of the content is, et cetera? I mean, will I be working with you directly or are you going to hand me off to someone else? Well, you're going to work with me. You're going to work with a couple of other guys. Yeah, I've got I've got a I've got another guy who. He's another VC advisor and he's going to be working with us as well. He wants to get it, and he's got a little bit of experience He's built a couple of decks, you know, like I met him like we would play golf last week. Like, it's great. Yeah, he's a really good guy. He wants to get in. So and he's doing a lot of stuff and he's telling me that, you know, he can get a deck like done for like five grand. OK well, if that's the case and you trust him, he's a good golfer. And everything, five grand sounds like a bargain compared to what I'm going to charge you. You're not going to get into anything that I'm going to do with you for less than six times that amount. Yeah, but you came highly recommended. Right? OK, so final question. Let me ask you a quick question. Yeah if you had to choose between a $5,000 PowerPoint presentation versus one, that's going to cost you $30,000. How would you feel about that? What's the difference between them, right? Yeah what makes a 30,000 presentation. So much better? Why are you like? I hear that and I think, like, is she drunk? Is he drunk? But yeah, what what? Why am I why am I spending that money when this guy can do it for five? Yeah, so you could probably get it done for 500 or $5 right? So why? Why would one even to spend $5,000 in a PowerPoint presentation? I mean, that sounds like a lot of money, too, relative to 500. Do you think there would be a tangible difference between the 500 and the 5,000 one? Well, yeah, I'm not going to like I spend $500 on an investor presentation. Well, how come? I spend like God on like half an hour of my lawyer. Yeah, same here. Right, and so you want me to work on something for two weeks and make it. Help you raise $2 million. I mean, one argue, can one reasonably argue that? The $2 million raise is dependent on how well you're able to present your idea. I'd say so, I say it's I don't think it's dependent on that as well. It's, you know, we've got good, we got we've got good IP, we've got good markets. We've got we've got we got good guys going out there. Yeah like, like, what's the deck going to do right? Right? what? Why am I spending? Why am I spending even $5,000. Yeah, right, right. That's what I was asking you. Why even spend five k? Because I don't want to go in there looking like a shit show. OK, but if you were able to tell your story, just verbally articulate it without props, without graphics and all that stuff. Isn't the idea strong enough just to go in there, just you? Sharing your idea, your credentials, isn't that enough to get $2 million? No well, no, regularly, absolutely. We need it for compliance. We need a regulatory sheet. We need like all these things, why would we not? Why would you think that? Why would you think that we can't go in? We need a presentation. I'm trying to resolve in my mind. On one hand, you're like, it's a good idea. I know what I'm doing. I don't need anything. And then on the other hand, you're like, no, it's necessary. I need this and I want this, and it's worth it. I can't resolve those two things. Can you see what I'm saying here? Ashley, why? Why am I spending $30,000 on a PowerPoint deck that's up to you if you want to work with me? If you want to listen or see what the forum is talking about, that's what it's going to cost. What do you think? $30,000 seems like so much money, it is a lot of money. You're absolutely right now compared to two million dollars, but it is a lot of money. Mm-hmm so you're telling me that like. Yeah, I guess, like two million dollars, if you took two million dollars, yes, right, and you. Thought about it like 30,000 like. Yeah, like I got like one, one million, that's 1 and 1/2. Yeah rob, I'm. Well, I think so what's the difference between why, why should I come to you like, like really, really? Why should I come to you like, you know, like I like, that's my life. Like, I got to like, think about everything. I think about the cost. Like, I got to think about the markets, right? Like, yes, this is a stressful time. It is. And this is a very fair question that you're asking. So I'd like to ask you this and maybe if you can answer this, we'll know the answer to all of this. Ok? what would I need to show or share with you to make you feel like, you know what? No brainer. 30,000 Let's get going. What do you need to hear or know? Well, do you have a portfolio of work? Absolutely I could do one better than that. Because you could argue that the portfolio looks good, but I can put you in touch with decks that I've designed and written for companies just like yours who've got funding based on that. Would that matter more to you? Yeah, like do you have a yeah, like what's your average number like? Yeah, what's your average number four? Four, how much you have helped to raise? Yes, I want to make sure that if you're telling me that this is what you do. Yes, and this is what you are really good at that. There's a track record there because this isn't. I've been burned before. Right, I spent like I've seen people spend $45,000 on the deck and I got nothing. Right? they got a template downloaded from the internet. Oh, yeah, I don't do that. Like I said, you could download one for $5 right now and we can end this conversation. The deck is just a manifestation of us understanding how best strategically to present the ideas so that you can get your funding. So it involves writing. It involves strategy, and then it manifests itself into design that's easy to understand. But just I want to answer your question. How much money have I helped? People startups like yourselves raised, right? How much would sound like a good amount to you? I don't know. Just throw out a random number, like, would you be like, you know, I'm impressed. That sounds legitimate. Like 600 million. OK look, I told you, the decks I've worked on have raised more than a billion with that impress you. Oh, it was ok? What happened? Yeah sorry, I just had my morning tea. Yeah, no, no. It's good that we got skyped or something. Something happen there. OK so is that enough to help you? Well, I guess it doesn't really matter, does it? What do you mean, like the amount of money that you've raised? Like, I just want to make sure that I'm getting a good product for $30,000 right, it's a PowerPoint deck. I feel like anybody can do this. Anybody could do this. Why do this? Why are you charging $30,000. You know, like we budgeted like 15. Maybe actually, you just told me, how much money have you raised? And that's important to you. And then I literally told you how much money we've raised, and then you immediately go and say, that doesn't matter. I feel like I'm talking to Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde here, who am I talking, this is Ashley. Or is this? Yeah, it's an interesting what we've got like advice coming from everybody, right? Yeah, we've got advice coming from our lawyers, we've got advice coming from our bankers. We've got advice coming from all the IRR guys. You know, I got our guys who are coming out of my ass telling me that I've got, you know, I could go to these guys over here. Or I could go to these guys over here. They're telling me they could do this work. Yeah, you're coming highly recommended. Right and that's what I did. I want a good product. OK, so that's interesting, so somebody also recommended us because you only mentioned seeing us on a forum before. Well, that's what you know, like if you're being recommended on forum. Vc forum. Well, that's not I mean, I appreciate you classifying that as recommended, but I can put you in touch with two VCs who I did the investor deck for and they raised a couple of million. Would you like to talk to them? Would that help you? Yeah, that would. Yeah OK. Is that enough for you to figure this out? Or do you need something else? No, I think a couple of recommendations is good right now. I just want to know that the money that I am, I'm really. I want to note that the money that I'm spending. That you're not pulling the wool over my eyes. Yeah there's no wool here. So what's happening? Yeah $30,000 for a $2 million raise. That's correct. 1.7% 1.7. Or what's the 1.3% something like that, yeah, yeah, Yeah. So if you do your job? Yes and. I will. Well, let me ask you a quick question. Do you believe if you had the right PowerPoint presentation that told your story, clearly effectively dealt with compliance? And what else did you say here? Regulatory issues that. That you'd be able to raise the two mil. Because if you have a crap idea, there's nothing I can do. Oh no, I know. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. OK, we're done. Yeah, no, that's we've got all our. Were we're going to do that. Yeah so at the minimum, don't mess up your presentation at the maximum. Add to it and then you're going to get your $2 million right? Yeah, take my presentation. We need you to take the presentation, and I just need you like, that's what I do. Make it good. Make good. Yeah, absolutely. Good Yeah. OK so I'll put you in touch with a couple of people. And then you let me know if this is going to work for you. If it doesn't feel free to hire whoever you want. Oh, well, yeah, thank you, yeah, you're welcome. Thanks so much. OK and scene, Oh god, what's wrong? Oh, God ING me, you're the one yelling at me the whole time. Just to clarify those clients that come in that whole thing. That happens, right, like that switch in that flip, right, if you're selling. Yeah, I believe it 100% I believe you're drawing upon real life experience. Kind of decide which one. Yeah, you're picking from Larry, Moe and jack, right, the whole time. Now, let me ask you a couple of quick questions. Did I do anything different than what you would have done, actually? It's interesting that you didn't actually like it's a calm conversation, right? And the questions that you started asking were the kind of questions that I start to ask, right? When when they come at me like a raging bull, I start to get into the OK, so why are we doing this right? Right? so why are we here? Right? this is and I make it very clear that they are not the first client at my door right now, and they will not be the last. Right, right. If they come from a random space, if it's a random recommendation like that, they say they've got the clout, but they have actually only seen me on a VC thing. I say, like, why are you what? How much money are you looking to raise? Where are you going? Who are you seeing like? I barrage them just as much as they barrage me with questions. Yeah, but well, the question. Did it feel like I was barraging you with questions? No, I would have asked. So a lot more questions. Because I don't have your specific knowledge, right? And maybe sometimes it helps me, and sometimes it hurts me. Like, I even have to like, use your own terms because I'm not used to talking about compliance and regulatory boards and things like that. Right? well, it's kind of the it's the difference between coming to a generalist versus coming to a specialist, right? It's the idea of, OK, you're coming as a Raging Bull to a specialized design firm where we deal with very specific things and we've dealt with them a lot and we have everything to back it up. Right so it's as a general, as a general studio, it's relying on what you the knowledge that you have in the knowledge that you've gained and bringing that in when you have one. Right just because they are aggressive or, you know, there are, they can gaslight the hell out of you. Let me tell you that. But if you have the ability to be confident in your work and what you do, the magic piece that makes you worth that much money, then it's a gentler conversation like you talk like Chris instead of like. Me back there, you. Yeah, Yeah. Now you were a tough I have to admit you were really tough because you I don't know if normal people outside of a role play like once I start saying like, oh, something going on. They usually calm that down right then and there. But you kept ignoring. You kept brushing aside again and again. But I did notice your energy started to change around halfway to 3/4 and then you stop like being in a rush, like speaking in full sentences. So I have to just tell everyone, like, don't give up just because at the beginning, it doesn't magically work out in the pockets they come. And the more energy, more manic they are, the calmer you need to be. So just speak slower and slower until they start to align with you. Yeah, it's like the majority of my clients are c-suite clients, so they have no time, right? The clients that I've been working with lately have teens to monitor where they go and what they do. And so when they're short and when they're the majority of them have ADHD right there, they're short. They're to the point, they have no time. And so that standard of quick talk, I've already I've got the markets on one side. I'm making money on this screen. I've got lawyers yelling at the screen and I've got to get this piece of shit looking like something that other people are going to want to invest in. Yeah so for me, it's the same thing getting those full sentences and getting that emotional connection, right? It's awkward. The awkward. Let them sit because when you start to get them like a little bit more relaxed, like when they start swearing. Right? if they swear it's not just a sign of frustration, it's also a sign of comfort to me like, OK, I can be more myself because you're being more yourself. And so I know, like some people don't agree with that, but it works for me. Yeah, let's do this. Let's take a pause here. I have some questions and comments coming in. I'm going to ask this one on behalf of ashwin, who's saying, so what if you don't have the experience selling a billion deck and how would you have pacified the need for a guarantee? Now, keep in mind, if we were to replay back that role play actually didn't ask for a guarantee. She was just trying to vet me and saying, what's the difference? So you notice two things that I did. I asked her what would matter to you? I didn't just go into telling her what matters to me assuming anything. Each person is going to bring a different set of variables. I do not know. And she says, well, I well, if you've done this. You you must have a track record and you must have raised a certain amount of money. And I know from talking to Ashley before she's done a billion dollars, she's done a lot of money, right? She's big time. I knew that from an old conversation. That's why I could say that. So instead of just blurting out a billion. Which you might be very tempted to do because you're like, huh, I got you. I asked her, where would you set that bar? And to most people, $600 million is ridiculously high bar. And then I repeated it back to her $600 million. So if somebody could do 600 million dollars, you'd feel confident, she said. Yes, I'm not good because she anchored herself at a certain point. And I could only do that if I were confident. And I am confident, so I'm like, OK, well, we've done over a billion. And then what she did, she trashed it right away. Which is really unfair, and most normal people wouldn't do that. She she would more likely, I think, and maybe I'm just talking out of school here, it's just like, damn son, you've done a billion. Let's talk more about that. Yeah, yeah, that's what I need to give me, that she didn't even give me that little bit. And then she just quickly just. Well, you know, anybody can do that. They don't. They don't give it to you. They don't give it to you. Yeah well, did you ask it that same way? I'm just because they've done seven. Why would they give it to you? What do you mean they've done seven. Like, that's the kind of client I deal with, right? Like, yeah, it's like, why does that matter? It's like, well, it didn't matter because you said it mattered. And then I asked you what part of that matters. I didn't convince you of any of that. No, you didn't. And I'm just trying to like, I'm not like, I'm just, yes, like these clients exist. I understand. But it can't. Usually, somebody is like, well, if you had 15 people work for you. And like 15, are you sure there are, yeah, 15. Well, I have 45. Well, it doesn't matter how many people work for you, that just seems like the most ridiculous thing. That sequence of that dialogue, right? That's what I'm saying. You literally said you should have a track record. $600 million. I'm like, OK, if that matters to you, I'll let you know. Right now it's a billion. The response that I thought you were going to say was, show me. I don't believe you. Oh, no. But it said you just threw it all the way, which is kind of wild. OK so ask them what matters to them? Ashwin asked them what matters to them and how they'll know. And if you can meet that, then answer it. If you can't sit there and say, look, I fall a little short. In reality, I've only done $450 million. I'll say just like that, too. Yeah, it's like, how many millions do you need? OK, so you know, maybe the next person will have $800 million. And you can verify that. And go with them. Godspeed well, it's interesting the way that you started to tease out the price comparative to the raise, because that is really where the value comes in. Like this? Where to go? Where's my boyfriend's book? It's got like beat up corners and like post-it notes and shit all over it. But that idea of. How much are you actually willing to make sure that in two weeks you have a deck that doesn't have compliance problems, that doesn't have mistakes, that looks on brand, then that plays with other guys who are also hiring people who are spending like, I'm not the only one. There are other guys on that table. You want to make sure that you're getting your deck is getting the attention that it deserves, right? If you're coming to me, I'm vetting you just as much as you're vetting me. So I want to make sure that if you're telling me that you're raising $25 million and they say they want to spend $30,000 on a death, I say so you want to spend $30,000 in order to raise $25 million in a month? Right? can we take a look at that number? And they that's when they figure it out, that's the moment, like that ratio is the source of that's where I'm going to show you the value that I have, right? How much are you willing to spend in order to raise that amount of money? In that time, right, because they don't have a lot of time to do it. Yeah Yeah. OK, let's do this. I'm going to go to Joshua. Joshua, you have a question. We're going to do this and we have to go to break out here before I run out of time, Joshua, Diane and then Connor. So Joshua, what's your question? You know, so it's sort of an observation that would probably be a question. I noticed that you didn't promise that your book is going to give them that $2 million typekit that you are going for you. I don't know, is that intentional? Like, rather than telling them, OK, I'm sure you. You referred them to people that you've done it for, like we've done for these people, we've been successful here. And as far as you, I'm not promising you anything. Just make sure that your idea is good. Live the rest of us, but you're not exactly telling them that your design is going to give them that $2. Is that intentional? Is that something I should? You know, puts in my process. I don't know. You let me answer that question. The first answer is Yes. Everything I'm doing is very intentional. I make no promises that I'm not asked to make. I make no promises that I can actually deliver on. No promises asked of me. I thought Ashley was going to ask me, what's your what's your ratio of successful decks that have raised money? I was getting a little nervous there because I don't know those numbers, I'd have to make something up, but she didn't. She said, oh, if you've raised $600 million, that sounds legitimate to me. So I only need to tell the client what they care about. And I only know that by asking them, what do you care about? And you just her that VCs. Yes at that point, Yes. References? Yes. At that point, because I know at the end of day, that's what's going to really matter. Right, so bye bye. By introducing other facts and figures and things that they're not asking, you potentially open yourself up to New objections that weren't even a concern of the client. Like, if I said, do you want to talk to my lead writers? And I was like, well, I want to do, no. What are you doing here? Right, so I can't guarantee things, I have no control over it, for example, if Ashley has a dumb idea. It doesn't know her story and can't tell it, and you know, all I could do is put together a nice presentation at that point. She's not going to raise money. I can't guarantee that. You can't guarantee that the market's not going to crash tomorrow. You can't guarantee that the like, that's the kind of stuff too many variables. Yeah, Yeah. And to guarantee I can raise you $2 million, why don't I just go out and build up my own business and raise $2 million and forget about getting paid 30 k? That doesn't make sense, either. OK, let's move on. Diane, what's your question or comment, please? OK, one thing I noticed that she was super she was on had a lot of nerves and at some point felt like she wasn't the decision maker. And that's when you asked, are you going to be the one I'm going to be talking to? And then I don't know if she felt super confident in her pitch, because when you asked her so you can go in there without a deck. She, like, started like backtracking. That's when I probably would have asked questions about like, like, I don't like how confident are they? So do you ever ask questions that are asking about who else it is that they're going to be working with? Because is this person really the decision maker? And then what is their track record for getting that? Let let me clarify something. Ashley was the decision maker. I had no doubt she was the decision maker. So I want to clarify something, Dan. I asked Ashley because she seems so busy and so frantic. It was a genuine concern is if I work with her, am I going to get information from her if she's going to be so busy that I can't even talk to her? What's the point? I'll give up right now if she doesn't give me more than five minutes of staccato sentences put together, there's no way I can do my job. Zero so I asked Ashley this question, and you have heard me do this many times before, and perhaps it sounded like that, but I want to be very clear. I asked her, am I going to be working primarily with you or someone else because I need time? And she goes, no, you'll be working with me. So that's what I was trying to do. I wanted her to become aware that it's impossible to work with someone if they don't want to work with you. We we don't want to go into it knowing that it's designed to fail. And the reason why I asked her if the deck doesn't matter, why have a deck, if your idea is so good? Just go in there and pitch it and raise your money. But we know this. Investors need to see something written and anybody can say anything in a meeting, they need to see projections, prospectus, whatever they need to see. Yeah, you wouldn't even ask somebody that for this. You wouldn't ask somebody that. Yeah so that's why because the whole time Ashley was doing something really weird, which was, I need this. I don't need this. It matters, but it doesn't matter. Do this, don't do this, and I'll pay for it, but I won't pay for it. So she total schizo. I don't usually talk to clients like that, but that's who she talks to. Yeah, they have, they know what they've done. They've worked really hard on this piece, right? This product and this company, and they're overwhelmed, right? They have a ton of people talking to them and the number of people who say it's just a PowerPoint file. Right so by the time they come to me, they're like, we put this deck into like an AI website, and now we're running it off of that. Now that's my other thing I have to deal with is why can't I put this into like a beautiful eye and have a presentation come at the other end? Why are you charging me 30,000 or whatever you're going to charge when I can just go and do that? That's another objective. That's new. OK, I have to keep this moving here. There's too many like I do want to do. You guys want to do breakout, right? Or do you want to just stay in the pocket? And he's like, let's break it out. You guys let me know in the chat right now, break out or just keep on this because I'm very mindful. Yes Yeah. OK, so we got to keep this super short. Then if you guys want to do the breakout. Keep going. Keep voting, everybody. Break out or keep going. OK, quick question. It's coming here from my where is that? What if you don't have something good enough to impress them? So my feeling on this, my here is you would not be invited to this conversation if you weren't good enough. I promise you this. This person who is barely able to talk to me would not even bother their assistants. They're there, their advisors or everybody that's working with them would have already gotten it to a certain point where we think this person is credible. Just keep in mind, a person is dropping 30,000 on a two week presentation. Their time is super valuable. OK, so you wouldn't be invited to this. You will not find yourself in a situation like this. So what you do is you keep leveling up, you keep trading up from where you're at. I mean, Ashley is in a very nice position because, I mean, I assume this is true in certain circles. She's very well known. They even write and talk about her. So at that point, you're more than qualified. All right. Let's keep moving. Question or comment, please. Ashton yeah, it's a bit of a review, but there was a document somewhere at some point that I had those seven questions you just ran through with Ashley, like starting with what's on your mind. And then thanking them. Tell me more. And then there was like you had at some point I remember some resource. Yes, what? Where are the seven questions like I've been looking through? The seven questions aren't here anymore. But if you look at the coaching habit, the seven questions, that's where they come from. Got it. Thank you. And I only started off with what's on your mind, the rest. I wasn't even thinking about the Coaching Habit anymore, but the Coaching Habit is a good place to start. OK, thank you so much. Good and then, Emily, you had your hand up and then you lowered it. That's the book, correct? Yes, I did, because I saw that people want to continue, so I had a question about the next. So they want to continue. It looks like people want to keep on like not breaking out going. They don't want to break dance. Yeah OK, so we'll stay here. So what's your question then? No, I didn't have on I did have one about if we were going to practice on it, oh, I see. That was your question. No, ask about how to do it. If like you want to go straight, like into it, like, you know, someone is really mad. How do you, I think, you know, identify something to just for me right now, like, well, actually, just give me two seconds. And Emily didn't finish. So I just want to make sure I only has the chance to finish. How do we go? Yeah, I was like waiting a little bit for that. Like, I could see some emotions, but not so much. I was like waiting for a moment with like, Oh my god, you're crazy. You know that reaction? Like, how do you? We can do that. How do you say that when people are like, mad at you? OK, OK, I'm scared. I'm really scared this time. Somebody else in here who has had a really fricking mad client like Ashley was just high energy light short, Curt, right? She was different. She wasn't mad. So Ashley, back to you and then somebody get ready to volunteer to be the crazy person with me, Ashley. Go ahead. I was just going to say that like, I have a lot of empathy for my clients, right? Because the amount of energy and the amount of family time, the amount of it's a lot of energy to be that person. Right so it's a lot to have that like, I don't care. Kurt short, like like, don't react to anything. The thing that I remember now is that person isn't them. It's not like, that's have to look at what they're going through to, like, identify like, what's up with the raging bull? Yeah so at the level in which Ashley is playing out, we're talking about massive amounts of money moving around. And so they're borderline. We know that the entrepreneurs disease is ADHD. We also know there are some, some form of psychopathy that CEOs have that there's emotionally just detached. We know this through research. Look at some of the top CEOs. They're kind of like indifferent to what you're feeling or thinking. A lot of them have low self-awareness, maybe some more borderline Asperger's, too. They just don't care. And so sometimes making that emotional connection may or may not be possible. So you just stay in it, stay in the pocket, calm them down. Keep just doing your thing calm and steady and get them to where they need to go and they need some information. Mirroring works with them, too, sometimes, right? Like if they're being if they're just hitting you like that constantly, then mirroring their behavior has a tendency to just like throw them off guard, too, because they're not used to that. Yeah OK. Who's ready to be the angry person? The emotional thing that Natalie wants to see us dance with. OK Connor, really, you have some angry clients. Yeah, well, I can definitely be angry with you. Well, I want you to be angry as it relates to something you've witnessed. Not pretend angry like. Yeah, Yeah. But I mean, my biggest point is the expense. Like, that's where I think people like. That's where I can. I can act that out pretty well. But if you're looking for something else that suck it. No, no, I want you. I want anybody here to tap into a moment when their clients, their prospective clients, were just absolutely nuts emotionally one way or the other, a sad, depressed, anxious, angry, frustrated or whatever it was. If you've seen that I would love for you to be that I'm not trying to like conduct acting classes where I've been angry at things in my life and that were projected onto a client because it won't work because you're not that good of an actor, you know what I mean? So I see that. Yeah, but it's rare enough. So I'll pass it. OK, I'm sure there's more qualified. If there isn't one, we'll work with you on that. OK did somebody has it may been around like a really angry. OK, Stephanie has. All right. So Stephanie is going to be Stephanie. have some situations where you've had to deal with some gnarly clients before I positioned myself. Yes OK, OK, OK. Who would like to do this? Dance with Stephanie as the vendor? Any hands or thumbs up or any anyone? Bueller? anyone? No one, no one wants to handle a hot what is Stephanie do? What do you sell, stephanie? We're going to be brand identity, so it would actually be. We've already sold the client on it. We're in style scape and I've just delivered the final revision on the chosen style scape. Oh, so this is just dealing with negative client feedback. Do you want something in the sales process? I would love something in the sales process, but if we don't have that, I don't have that. Once the Rock and Roll with anybody, she's brave enough to volunteer. So anybody have, like, a crazy prospect. Mel, did you just wave at us? Now she's adjusting a camera. OK this remember, this is like auction you bought the bronze sculpture. Don't gesture like you're going to do something because you're going to be up there, ok? You're like, we'll collect $100,000 from you a little bit. OK, so. OK Amy, Amy, you've had to deal with an angry prospect before actually know it's going to say it's not an angry prospect. I just have a super wishy-washy prospect who has agreed to my wishy-washy and everything else and the decider in chief. But that one down, Amy. OK, so Emily's decided to see some, some hot emotion and how we process that is we're coming up with a blank here. So it could be that Connor was the closest to the sort of prize here. So let's just do it. Then Connor kind of bring yourself online. You're going to do this dance with Shari. And so let's set it up like, what is it that you're selling and give us any kind of context? And then we'll go. Shari, get ready. So I'm selling something. Or shari? You're the client, but she's playing you. You know what I mean? I understand. Yeah so what is it that what a services do you sell normally? 3D virtual spaces? But at the time, I was just doing freelance 3D. And yeah, and the dude was mad at me forever. No, give us too much. So something 3D virtual space freelance. And this is a prospective client, right? At the feedback he was, but he became a client and he maintains the attitude, OK, that's fine, but we're taking it at the beginning of the relationship. Not OK, not middle or end. OK, so we're all clear with the variables here. So, Shari, you're going to be selling something. 3D work, it's not that important. I mean, the work is important, but it's not important to the role play and you're a freelancer and this is a prospective client, and we're going to begin the conversation there. So how much did you want to sell this for connor? Like, what's the target that we're trying to aim for at that time? $1,000 would have been a dream, ok? $1,000 a day or for a Yeah. For a deliverable. OK, great. And briefly, what's the deliverable? That's a Model Office chair. Beautiful OK, so it's modeling office. Yeah, perfect. This is actually great. OK texture maps are just 3D model, just the model, yeah, just the 3D model. OK, great. Now everybody else is like, what the fuck are they talking about? So 3D Model UN textured, ready to go for $1,000. OK, so Conor and Shari, so we don't break character until I say and scene. And if you get really lost, I'll just cut you off. OK, so I will throw you a lifeline, or you can show me the universal symbol. And then I'll go, OK, well, definitely that, Yeah. All right. OK, kick it off. Ring ring. Hello hi, Sherry. I saw your contact information on a freelance website, and I was wondering if you had some time to talk about a project that I'm doing. Hi, how are you doing? I'm doing good. Oh, OK, so can you tell me a little bit more about your project? I need office chairs modeled. And I need a bunch of them model and I need it done right away. OK could you please please be a bit more specific when you meet right away? I'm going to have 50 of them and I need basically a new chair every day or every other day. OK, so a new chair, one chair per day. Yeah, but I'm not going to give you all 50 at first, I'm going to give you one and we'll see how you do. OK, so just to clarify, I understand what you want, well, so you need a 50 chair one a day, you're going to start with one. And for how long? For 50 days, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean, 50 times 1 is 50 days, but it's at one or every other day. So we're going to talk about inside of two months. All right, then. So just to. Clarify, I'm sorry. Do you need to go? No, no, no, no, I'm just trying to understand basically what you want me exactly to be because you say that you want to do one a day just to see what would you need from me so that we can be sure that we go for the 50 days? I will need to be able to have a specific scope of the project initially. Yeah so I feel like I gave you that scope. I'm going to give you a chair and you're going to model the chair. And then tomorrow I'm going to look at that chair and decide whether I give you the next chair the next day and I'll pay per chair. You want a paper chair, ok? Yeah, that's not something that we do here. OK, so the way we usually process is that what we need from you is that I agree I couldn't agree with you in. I'm actually getting a little bit lost here. OK not helping me oh, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, fine, fine, fine. I'll do it. I'll do it. Occupy's I want to give Connor an opportunity to get really upset at you. So kind of go ahead and turn off the notch as a couple bits. OK, I wanted to share this part. I want to say I know, but I don't want to be angry at anybody. OK so I don't mean to unnaturally do it, but I'm going to give you permission to turn it up a couple notches and share. Shari, you almost done. I'm going to jump in and save you soon, but I just want to see you sweat a little bit more if that's OK. You're like, I'll never volunteer again. Love, go back to it. OK, I don't really know what you could possibly be confused about, I have a budget for chairs, there's 50 chairs I need them done in two months like I feel like should I? Am I wasting my time on this call? No, you're not I'm really trying to understand what you really want, because like I said, we need something to be clear. So you said that you have a specific budget, could I have an idea of what the project is? Yes, $200 a chair. 200 Per share. OK could you please give me a bit of an idea of. What will help you make a decision for us to continue? What are you going to base the pressure on so that you can decide that you're going to go to the next one? Yeah if the chair is exactly like what? I like the design, it needs to be precisely like the design, because that's how we do things. And if it is exactly like the design, then I will send you the rest of, I will send you more chairs. We'll we'll keep going. OK it's. It's still a bit confused. That's what could be confusing about any of this. I'm sorry. So the simple fact that you are going to save you, I could tell you're dancing on ice, right? No, no, I want to keep going. Keep going. All right. All right, I'm sweating. But when I try, kind of I'm really trying to understand like, OK, so because for me, like, I really want to get the initial score up clear. So we're going to start from a chair. You want me to do exactly as of the design. Do you think that 200 per chair is something that is fair? What does this project represent to you? This project represents another aspect of my business, in which case in which we have a lot of things coming through. And right now I need an artist to do to make me chairs any financial body. What would it be? It's not nothing. But you know what? The client's kind of stringing me out to sew and that stringing me out is passing is being passed into your seat. But at the same time, I don't feel like this is very difficult. It's an office chair. You need to make it match. It's $200. I'll send you the chair at the end of this call and you can get started. OK, save me, Chris. All right. OK, first of all, round of applause, everybody. Give us a little emoji. Yes, Yes. Look at all those hands. Isn't that beautiful? I'm going to screengrab this, ok? Awesome job. Thanks for doing that. I know that's not easy to do. I can tell that there's a lot of things here that we can tweak that will give you massive, different result. OK, Shari, you know what? I know the questions. But really, what struck me is the simple fact that is, is the fact that I don't know what the guy does. When you said that, it didn't matter. It's weirdly enough it didn't matter to me. Watch, I'll show you. You asked me to sell rocket. I would style you a rocket. I know nothing about rockets because what you're doing is you're trying to understand the human and their need. OK, I'll show you. I happen to know a lot of things about a lot of little things, you know, so it's easier for me to sell stuff, but somebody here can sell women's underwear. I'm like, OK, let me figure that out. I will sell it. I just need to know the parameters. That's all. OK OK, so what I'm going to do is I'd like to everybody right now to write down three things that Shari either did well or where she could do like a lot of improvement. I want you to just think before I tell you what it is myself. Just three things something that she did well and something that she needs to improve. We're not going to share this publicly. So this is not like a. And critique here, we're not doing that. I just want you to practice like being able to pick up. What happened? Just three things, everybody. Maybe you should write them down to sorry. Write them down like, yeah, I know, I know. It's called introspection, reflection and review. It's a critical part to critical thinking and growth. OK what I'm grieving. I'm sorry for being mean. No, do not be sorry, you're playing yourself there, ok? You're not really mean to her in real life. For the purpose of the construct of the matrix. You have to run the woman in the red dress program, otherwise it won't work. OK, we have to do it this way because would we rather struggle to figure things out and fail here when it's safe or when we actually have an a-hole client? And the answer is always here. So we don't pull punches here, if this is like the hardest, craziest Jim. You know, and when you go out and box for real, it's like everybody's a chump. No problems, ok? Did everybody write down their three things? Really, think about this, everyone. I could tell you're uncomfortable selling 3D things, but you knew the price you knew was a chair, modeled and textured, that's all you need to know. And this is where a lot of people will make this mistake, they think they need to know the nuance like how the widget is made. You don't. Not at all. Like, the thing that you might be confused about is that you might not be able to finish it one day, and that's OK. But we even get that far. You didn't get your price in there, right? No, I didn't get very far and I was stuck by right. You wanted to do like one per day. Like, who does that? Like, I was really confused. I could do it a day. You could do it in a day. No problem. OK, so I think that's what kind of for me off more than anything. And I was more focused on this, which was not important, right at all. OK, so I'm going to pretend like I did not work in the visual effects industry, and I'm going to just do this like I'm just I'm a graphic designer. I know nothing about 3D. I'm going to sell this without using any insider knowledge. OK, I'm going to show you how to do this. Now the one question I caution everybody here not to ask, which is the first question you asked, which is how are you doing? Do not ask that question. You've heard me say this before. Do not ask me how I'm doing. First of all, do you really care how Connor is doing? And what if Conor told you for a half an hour about how his kids were playing soccer and Timmy came in second, but we're really working on that. What are you going to do now if you cut them off? You're being disingenuous and you're being rude as a default. Do not say, hey, How's it going? What's up? How are you? It's all bs. So sort of just like nonsensical questions now in real life as all your friends, hey, what's up? How's it going? How are you this business? We ask business questions, and we show and demonstrate the our respect for the prospects time by not wasting their time. That's a good question. All the pleasantries go ahead. And that's a question I asked once when we started and we did. You shared the script when you ask us, like, how do we gain trust? Yes, I was just asking that. How far do you go into the conversation? Because you have to? I tend to have to look for that personal connection with them. Yeah, and so, you know, I have a dog, Oh yeah, my dog, but I don't do, I don't do that. No, no, no. That's the thing for this day. OK all right. How personally did not personal at all? I'll tell you when to get personal. All right, everybody, write in your diary, dear diary, Chris said. Thou shall not get personal questions on a business call. Thou shall focus on what's important to the other person. We shall treat the person's time as valuable as gold. Now, after you do all the business stuff, you can talk about the personal stuff, but in that order. Don't try to be my friend at the beginning because they're not looking for friends. They have a business question that's why they're calling. OK number two thing that I saw is, you know, I would warm up your tone in a little bit. I'm not talking about, hey, Oh my god, we're best friend. Not that far. Just warm it up like, I'm happy to talk to you right now. And I couldn't tell if you were bothered that I was calling or if you were like, happy that money was about to come in the door. Number 3 is when you were stuck, you kept asking the same question over and over. That was a perfect opportunity for Conner to blow up on you, but he didn't. I would have blown up on you. You know what I mean? Like what part of 50 times one, don't you understand? That's 50 and 50 days, and you're like, well, what's two times? 20 five? It's 50. I would have gone right there with you, you know, so it's almost like you're provoking the bull. But the bull never came. So, OK, so watch, watch what we do now. OK, I'll put this way. I'm going to handicap myself and pretend like I don't know anything about 3-d, which I do. But let's do this. Let's let's rewind the tape. We'll do this again, and I'll try to implement the things that I wish you had done. And you'll see maybe a little difference between the two of us. OK, sorry. So first again, thank you for volunteering because nobody volunteered. So you're a brave soul. If you're willing to, like, put yourself out there, you're going to learn. OK, so conor, let's do this again. Ok? all right. All right. Ring ring. Hey, conor, oh, I'm sorry. I can't do that. I don't know who you are. Sorry sorry. All right. Let me reset. Reset that was bad. No foul. No one. Oh good. Ring ring ring. Hello hi, I got your contact information from a freelance web site, and I'm wondering if you can work for me. OK, tell me more, please. I need some assets modeled. And I need them modeled like very quickly and very precisely. OK quick and precise. So how quick is quick? Hopefully, one model per day. Some may take you a day and a half, but some may take less than a day, so it should be one per day on average one per day. OK, that sounds pretty quick to me, and I want to make sure it's precise. How? how do we determine precise? Is it? How would you determine that it needs to be exactly the fucking same? And what do we have to work with? Like to know that it's exactly the same? I'll send you layouts, blueprints and it needs to match precisely. Ok? are these layout and blueprints things that your company is designed? No, we received them from the client. OK oh, I see. I see. OK and I assume we'll have all the drawings that we need to be able to do this, all different angles, views, measurements, everything, you will probably have a front view, a side view. Sometimes they're a little bit sketchy, but you should be able to get it done. OK and will there be any kind of review process? Yeah, I'll review it. OK, so just by the token of needing a review process, it sounds like it's going to take more than a day. Like I would need all day to work on it. And then you would review and give some notes. Well, my review should be looking at it and knowing that it's done. And then we're done. Oh, OK. Your review is like approved. Yeah well, yeah, because your work should. It should be perfect. That's what I'm trying to tell you. OK all right. Sounds good. Now I got to let in order for me to do this. It's going to cost anywhere between 1,500 to 2000 per model. Is that something that you can afford to spend? Absolutely not. Are you fucking nuts? That is insane. Is it? There are office chairs, dude. Yeah and but they're custom built and they're done in a day. So what is a reasonable price then? 200 per day. Whoa OK, I'm sorry. 200 per model per model. OK, that sounds pretty nuts to me. Can you get a good model done for $200 a day or per model? Sorry well, if you can't, maybe the next person on the freelance website can't. OK, maybe, maybe they can. We sound pretty far apart there, Connor. Yeah OK. Why don't you just work with them? Then I don't know what else to do. I can't do it for $200. Not in America. I can't. All right, well, then I'm going to move on. OK, move on. Best of luck to you. Let me know if it doesn't work out, OK, Connor. OK, I'll give you a call in like three days when it doesn't work out. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you will. All right. Well, and the scene there? OK, now this is not a job that can win. I can only win winnable jobs. You guys understand that, and I would tell my producers this all the time, you put a legitimate live lead on it, I will close 60 70% of the time. Not 100 percent, but there's jobs that are just unwinnable. And I want to get this person in and out of my conversation as fast as possible. If it's not a good fit. I already know Connor's probably not going to get a good model for 200 bucks. I'm almost certain of it, and he's going to have to deal with the wrath and fury of his clients, but he's not open to even dialoguing, so I'm not going to waste any more time. OK, so we did all of the business stuff. Sorry I want to open up for questions from you, specifically since you were brave enough to volunteer. Let's talk. What's your question? I don't I don't have a specific question, I just I'm able to see the difference between what you did and what I did and how you actually came and gave your price first rather than ask like I did. But the budget was, yeah, and then. You stayed firm. Right, used to be firmly said, like you ask is pretty unreasonable, you made it clear in the kind of diplomatic way and then you stay at your price. That's that's what I can see. But they're going to have. It's just that I wonder, like I had a call and say, it's actually this morning. I know you have to detach yourself from the process to be able to have the conversation. But how do you how do you do what you just did like? How do I get to the cell, right? Even if it's in the royal plate without like I did being stuck on the deliverable and do the work that I have to do? Meaning it's just like developing the skill and the conversation rather than focusing on the work that you have to do, if that makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. I'd like to point out a couple of things and. And this is where you're going to get a lot of different ideas on when you should talk about price. And you've heard me say this before, I don't know how long our conversation was. I imagine three minutes, it wasn't that long, but within three minutes, I'm already talking about money. Because money is one of the biggest criteria for somebody to hire you or not to hire you. So delaying the money talk is a detriment to you. Asking the client what their budget is. Especially on this level is a recipe for disaster because they're going to anchor you so low. Yes, once he says $200 how do you get him to the thousand? Almost impossible. So just be bold enough to say, look, I don't know too much about this project, but I just got to let you know, just based on the little that we talked about, it's going to be North of $1,200. 2000 And then Conor can react, and then we can just get off the phone. I wish I had done that. He paid the price. Oh, Yeah. And the client is telling you right then and there. I'm going to work this way with you. And this is the way it's going to be. And if they're not willing to meet you in the middle. To let you drive. Forget about it. And then later on, you go into the forums like, oh, my clients suck it, beat me up all the time. They don't pay me enough. They don't appreciate anything I do. I'm like, well, who signed up for that job? It means this is me. Oh my God. See, because you accept it. You know, it's like the person. Look, I mean, I hate to say it like this. The person has like an arrest record. The person just punched the kid in the face and walked up to you and like, you want to go out on a date while they're drinking and shooting Coke at the same time. And you're like, I think this is a good idea to get a relationship with this person. You tell yourself that and like no girlfriend, no, you got to stop. They're telling you right now. I'm going to be a pain in the ass to work with, I would never appreciate anything that you do and even when you do a good job, I just think you're just doing your job. I'll never refer you to another person in my life. And after a while, I'll take you for granted and ask you to do it for less. And you're like, yes, please. So these are the OK, so. You know, the clients like I had, like the Connor, right? What happens is like I just say no straight away. I don't even go as far as what you did. And then somebody pointed out in the chat saying that I because at some point I said, we don't do that here saying that, you know what he said and I said, I don't do this. And that's what I usually say. I just look at them like, oh, no, I'm doing this, and I just say, no right away. Yeah so if that's fine, that's OK. I'm going to keep doing it. That's all. Thank you. Yeah, I don't like to say no. I do not like to say no. I like the clients to say no. And so I create a decision for them to make that winds up them saying no. Right usually in my mind, I'm not going to say this out loud. I need you to let me lead. I want you to respect me. I want you to be fair and kind to me, and I need you to pay me top dollar. If you don't want to do that, then they're like, no. I don't say no. I say, if you'd like to pay me $2,000 give me the time to do this the right way I can do it. Otherwise you are. You have a right to hire whoever you want and it doesn't sound like we're going to be able to meet. And then they're like, well, f-you, I'm going, I'm like, OK, thank you. I'm not trying to be the boss, I'm not trying to flex, I'm not trying to appease my own ego and my own self esteem, I have enough self-esteem. It's totally OK. I just let them decide, for example, when I want to fire an employee, I'm not firing the employee. I'm saying, Bobby, if you do this, do you get to stay if you don't want to do this? You'll be asked to leave, which is it? So in essence, then Bobby fires himself. I'm making it clear it's like if you want to do this, if you want to continue behaving badly, showing up to work late and abusing and creating a hostile work environment, you won't be able to do it here. I'm not saying in the universe that you can't do it somewhere. I'm sure there's crazy places you can work to do that. You just can't do it here. What do you want to do? Well, Chris, I don't want to be here. I'm like, OK, thank you. Go ahead and send me a letter of resignation. We'll consider this your last official day. OK this is not about me trying to exert whatever little power I have, I have very little. OK, let's move on. Stephanie has a question and then Angela and Marie go ahead. Stephanie o. Connor did not offer you the. It's not really offer, he didn't stipulate the we're going to. It's like a test run. So how would you get that far? Yeah so how would you if you were to have gotten that far with the test run? Would you have done something similar, like you did with you said, you were going to do a jewel like, whoa, that sounds like that's not really. Something we normally do. Have you been burned in the past because that's what I was thinking. Well, we unfortunately we didn't get angry and we didn't get to the test run. We just got to the breaking point, which is, you're crazy and I say, you're crazy. We're both crazy. That's it. We're out. You know, no harm, no foul. And he even joked, like, three days later, I'll call you back. I'm like, I know you won't. It won't work. He's going to hire somebody in some developing country and it's going to be jacked up model. And he knows that, too. And he won't admit it on the call, but he knows it. But if Conner were to say, look, we'll give you one, if it works, we'll give you more. I think fantastic. I'm pretty confident I only want to do one. What if you're a jerk? What if you're an impossibly difficult client to please? I don't want to overcommit and I'm just looking at one job at a time. And I think that's where Shari kind of got ahead of herself. She can't even agree on price, and she's talking about like, I want, I want. I want multiple jobs. I'm like, no, I don't want to. You could be nutso, man. Yeah all right, awesome, thank you. Yeah, so it's a slow dating process, I don't want to rush into marriage, and I think that's how you guys need to look at it. OK, let's go to the family. Hello hey, sorry, I'm here, I'm here. I just wanted to add something that I work with a lot of crazy clients, but that's OK, maybe not crazy, but more, you know, when they're like you said, ceos, you're most up. There are a lot of like psychopaths out there. And they're very alpha style. All of them, including the women. And that's what I wanted to say is that I think the energy like, I don't, you know, don't let people treat you bad. But the energy, if people have that energy, you need to go in there. And even if you slow them down and be like, calm. But if you're not being really assertive and self-confident, you will be like treated like an order taker from day one. So you need to be like the right energy if you want to be their guy, because if you don't, they will never respect you, they will never listen to you and like, I wonder how you do that with, you know, without it's difficult because people will have that kind of attitude. And, you know, how do you meet that kind of person? I know how I do it, but like, how do you do it to gain that trust, but at the same time, calm people down a little bit. Yeah he wasn't that mad, I mean, I He wasn't mad at all, we will somebody to be mad at me, OK, and I'll show you how to do it now. Excuse me. I want everybody to know this when you're talking to the client for the very first time and you do good work for them. That will be the best the relationship will ever be. Over time, it just gets worse. You take each other for granted, it's just human nature, it's like you show up, I show up whatever. It just goes downhill. So if you start from the bottom, there is no lower, you know, you're already at the basement. It's now you're like subterranean. I just don't know where you are at this point, ok? It happens all the time. Some of my best clients over time, like Chris, do this for less and do it in less time. And we want you to jump through three more hoops and then give us this extra deliverable. They just think because they've given you so much money, and that's what happens. Well, then you're sitting there thinking, man, I ever thank me and shouldn't they be buying me a gift? Like what is going on here? And you both take each other for granted? So it starts in the highest possible place. And so if you're already starting the bottom, you're in deep doo doo. It's only going to get worse. Now, how do you hold your ground? How do you command respect? I think you just hold yourself a certain way and then they get to decide. I want to work with you or I don't. So one of the most powerful things that happens when you choose to say I'm not for everybody is the relationship start to improve and you don't mourn the loss of poor Fitz. And that's what happens to us, like when it doesn't work. And the client doesn't want to hire us, we go into our booth and we get our crying pillow out and we feel so sad. It's like, no, that was going to be a horrible relationship. You dodged a bullet. That's all I can say. Now, I think because of the way I carry myself out, I'm like, no, this is what we're going to do it. You don't have to work. I mean, it's fine. That's how they start to learn to respect you. Now, I'll tell you a little story, and then I don't have the exact clean answer, that's why I'll tell you a little story. I remember working for probably the most famous main title designer living or in the history of main title design. And I would go into the office because I was a freelancer and he was just destroying people emotionally. He was just brutal because his standards are so high and he's just frustrated. What I imagine is everyone's incompetence in coming up with ideas and coming up with great design. And he was treating people like Dog trash. It was uncomfortable to witness. And then he going to be literally like, this is garbage and get this out of my face and you're wasting company resources and he would just turn over to me. Chris, How's it going? I was thinking what you know what, because I don't take that. I just don't, you know, you want to yell at me. OK, I'll just listen and I'm going to walk away. I'm not going to engage in this. And people know that they sense it and they feel it from you. And they don't do that. Unfortunately, I've been in rooms where people left crying men and women. It's horrific, and they would just mutter things under their breath, I'm like, wow, why would you sign up for this? Why would you be here for this? I wouldn't. I'm going to hold myself high. OK yeah, I've been there, too, and I just that's why I wanted to point it out that I think that it's not just what we say, it's really about the energy and how we say it and our body language and everything because it's like I study dogs and see how they do it. If you like dogs, study how they do it, it's like very like the alpha, the one who's like as soon as you like, you know, get a little bit and look at people a certain way. They like going after you. You know, so you need to be aware of how the energy also, not just what you say, it's really about how you say it. Yeah OK. Let's do this, we have his question, and then maybe I can answer a few more questions than I have to run. So mahi, what's your question? OK, I on to us, would you say it is an unwinnable client if they say to your face that they don't, they do not think you deserve to be paid a certain price? OK, so what was the first part of the question? They don't. How would I? What would you say that it is an unwinnable claim? Unwinnable? OK, what do I say to an unwinnable client? If they say to your face that they do not think that you deserve to be paid a certain amount. OK, I would just agree. You know, green is a great way to end the conversation. So Klein says, I don't think so. Like, let's say in Connor situation, I would say, you know, for me to do this, I think I know what you want. It's going to be $1,500 like I would never pay a person like you that amount. I'm like, yeah, you're right, you shouldn't pay a person like me that amount. What are we going to say now? And I would even apologize, I'm like, I'm sorry for wasting your time. I hope it all works out well for you. And that would be none of that, I'm not hearing the business of convincing people of anything. So back when, like Ashley would say, that was a lot of money, I'm like, yeah, it is a lot of money, no doubt. Why would we ever want to spend that kind of money? Well, when we're raising $2 million, we want to spend that kind of money. Right so if people say you don't deserve it, I shouldn't talk to you like you shouldn't talk to me. I'm not here to prove them, because the minute you engage in that kind of comment when they're trying to chop you down is you've already lost. I don't want to engage in that at all. OK, here's what we're going to do. We're going to switch gears. If you guys don't mind. Uh, where is she, Stephanie said that she had a client like go bananas on her on feedback. It's insanity, wants to see how to deal with strong emotions. Let's try. So Stephanie, give me the context and then I'll make some notes here. Go ahead. So it was identity designed package. We'd gone through strategy as well. So right now we're at the style scape. We have chosen a style scape. We've revised the style scape. Were handed off the style skate provision. And then the client blows up. Over one particular thing that we just cannot frickin' get right. OK is it your fault? Like, what outcome do you want me to have here? The outcome. What's the desired outcome, the desired outcome? It's over color. So that's the desired outcome for you to continue the color conversation once we are in logo design. And that to not revise the style scape over one small item like color, and that we will continue exploring in logo design, why would you want to do that? Because she was being really unreasonable. No, I mean, like, why would you not want to revise the color before you go do any more real work? The soundscape is an excellent place to hash out your disagreements and not to proceed because at this point, we will. We were pixel pushing the color because she was having hesitations about the project in general because of her life. I'm going to answer this. I'm going to do this the way I would do it. Maybe not the way that you would want to do it. Maybe we can compare and contrast. OK, so let's pick it up. I just sent you over the stylus. We've already reviewed it and you can be as crazy or nasty as you want with me. OK OK. All right, let's go. Stephanie, I take it that you got these style escape, and we've talked about it. What's your feedback that yellow man? I just I just don't understand why you guys cannot figure out that I don't want that yellow like is it? Is it because your designer is a dude? Because like, I just feel like he's just not getting me, he's not getting my desire for a particular shade of yellow? I can understand how colors are psychological and emotional triggers for people, and I feel your energy right now, and I'm sorry that this color is creating this kind of feeling with you. How about how about we try to resolve this a different way? What do you think? I mean, anything, I mean, I just like there's just I just need this color to be figured out like every designer we've ever worked with just cannot figure out my colors. I thought I thought you were. I thought it was going to be ok? Yeah, I'm also disappointed that we weren't able to figure it out. I'll take ownership over that. what would work for you in terms of finding the right color? I mean, I sent you over colors. Oh, should we just use those colors? I mean, you did send them back to me like I see that you put those colors in the style scape. And that they didn't work. But I mean, I guess I can just keep trying to send you colors. Let me ask you this question, I mean, I imagine right now I'm trying to imagine you rolling your eyes. I mean, like shaking your finger, even though I can't see you. But if we use the colors that you send us, would you be happy or you did? Oh, so those and they didn't work it. So I mean, I didn't work. The color you're taking aren't working. I mean, like, why hold on a second here? You sent us colors. We use the colors, and then your first statement to me was what idiot on your team? Pick these colors? I think I'm talking to one of them right now. Well, Yeah. And then you picked other colors, and those colors aren't working, either. It's like the colors I pick aren't working. The colors you pick aren't working. Like, I just don't understand why we just can't get these colors right? Yeah and in all your life, nobody's been able to pick a color for you. No, I wonder why that is. I think it's because you're a man. No, no, I mean, everybody, like all the men and women before in your life who pick colors for you. You know what I mean? Like, they're all terrible at picking colors. I mean, I can pick a color to go with my outfit, but I just don't understand why we can't just have, like, figure out these colors for this brand. Yeah so if we sat together and I brought over like a Pantone swatch book, we sat there and we pick colors together, do you think that would solve this because it's impersonal? I get it. Yeah, I don't know if I have time like, I'm moving. OK I don't think we can, like have a sit down because I've just like, I'm like, I'm moving, there's just so much going on right now. OK, so you have no time, but this is important to you. Yeah, it's important. I've been trying to get this brand launched for like three years. OK so would you want to do this? Would you want to take another three years to do this? I mean, how important is it to you? It's important. It's more important than something else that you could probably not do. I mean, I have a lot going on, but yeah, I mean, we could sit down over Zoom and hash out colors. Yeah, I think that's probably the most productive, right, because I don't want some other idiot guy to pick colors for you. Yeah, that sounds good. And do you think once we are able to decide on a color that we can move forward? Yeah, I'm ready to move forward. Me too. So here's what we'll do. We'll send over a strip, a bunch of colors. I'm going to edit it down to like what I think can work. I'm not going to actually look at 3,000 colors. I'm going to ask you to look at four. And then we can talk, and then you let me know that, OK, yeah, it's OK, I'll probably pull some colors together to some ideas for me to. Maybe I'll ask my friends, too. It's super subjective, right? I just want to make sure you're happy with the colors before we proceed. Yeah, me too. OK you feel better. Yeah, I need to go pack. Do you need somebody to help you pack? Oh, probably you want to come help me do that too? Sure, I can do anything you want. That would be great. Can you bring some wine? I'll probably need a lot of wine as well. Lots of wine. OK, wine in packing. This sounds dangerous, but OK, we can do that. I'll send you over a nice bottle of wine. Oh, please do, please. I appreciate it. A white person. Thank you. Yeah OK, talk to you later. All right, bye. Thank you, Chris. Hi Joshua saying, I'm so flirty, that's not flirting. I wasn't flirting at all. Sometimes I am flirting, but I'm not. I'm saying I've been in room rooms, I've been in the room where that happens. This was not flirting. Yeah, I mean, I do flirt a lot, but I'm just being kind. But I wasn't flirting there. OK, Ali, you saw an emotional person. Yeah, I worked with it. Good Yeah. Good work, Stephanie. I also loved your way of, you know how you did it, Chris, because I think most people would be like prestige. Like, no, we're not doing that. I'm not going to talk colors with you right now. I think you did a great. Great job. Why not, why not take it now? Why not take what? Why not take the discussion now, I mean, a lot of people would be like, have so much prestige, like, I don't want it, I don't want to talk about colors with my client right now, you know? But I think you did great. What do I care about? Colors? I mean, it's a color. Why am I so in love with the color? I just want my client to be happy if that shade of yellow doesn't work. Maybe golden yellow would work. You know, golden rod, or maybe okra would work. I don't know. Burnt umber. We'll pick a color. God it. We're not going to get divorced over a color. Come on. Yeah, but a lot of color works, but a lot of designers don't want to let go of that prestige. I don't know what that is. That's ego. Yeah, I know. That's you saying I'm superior to you and all my feelings matter. None of yours feeling. None of your feelings matter. That is not a great way to build a long term business relationship, period. I'm just going the way it was actually resolved was she sent us over all her color ideas. We put in other color ideas as well. Sent it to her, not letting her know that one of them was the original color set. And she picked the original color set without realizing that she picked the original color set happens all the time. Yeah, but yeah, we put together. So many color options all the time. Like, we spent so much time and then she was like, I really like that one and I was like, girl, you know, that's the original one, right? Just letting you know she was like, are you kidding? She was like, Oh my god, we got a big laugh out of it. But it was not funny at the time. It was funny when it was over. I got to tell you something. I've done this to people and people have done this to me. It's hilarious. You know? In post-production, when you go into an edit Bay is $1,000 an hour. It's literally 1,000 an hour and you sit-in the Bay now, you know, I don't know about the way that frame is working for this commercial. I think we need to make that a little bit smaller. You know what, the post the operators do, the artists, they don't do anything. They just make it smaller and they make it bigger and they make it smaller and bigger. And then it's just the exact same size and you're like, that's the size I'm talking about. You're good, Jimmy. And they're like, yeah, I know. You know, and literally the clients are like, can we shift that one pixel to the left? And you literally do tap it and it moves a little bit like, no, no big. Back to the right one more time. And can we split it in the middle? I'm like, literally, that's what a pixel is. You cannot split a pixel. That's it. And we're literally not talking about pixel pushing. And it's one of these things. You just indulge your client thinking it's $1,000 an hour, however long you want this to take. No problem. The clock is running, the meter is running on you, that's all. OK, Joshua, you had your hand up for a half a second. I saw it and it's gone. Are you good? You're muted. Right yeah, it's I'm good, but like, well, I wanted to ask about was sort of like almost out of context of what we're talking about is like I've been in this kind of situation before, so it affects the timeline of the project and. There is a deadline to. How do you work with that like? That same shift, so I was like this out of context, maybe. Oh yeah, that's out of context. Hold on to that question. Yeah, thank you. OK, I'm going to answer this question. Darren says that I say, I don't care about the color. And then let her choose, and what if the color looks like crap still? Well, to who? What does the color look like crap to and who gets to decide? I did this experiment one time I went to search online, like, what are the ugliest color combinations that designers hate the most? I looked at them like they're not that ugly. So this is completely objective. It was kind of like a weird pink and a really like dark green color. And those two colors with this yellow looked horrible together, but I was like, you know what? It depends on how you use it. A little bit of the pink. A little bit of the green. No problem. And I remember one time we showed our clients. And this tech company back East telecom expense management company, and they really liked the style escape we showed them three. But there is something about this that's bothering me. And I could tell to me this is the best design, this is what was right for them, and like, something's bothering me about this, I said, you know what? I have a hunch. Let me test this ID on you. Is it that color of yellow and light? Yes and I said, is it you hate that yellow, or is it because we use too much of it? Because I suspect we use too much of it? And then they thought about it like, you know? Maybe we do like that yellow is just too much, I said. I'll tell you what, let me just reduce it down. I think these super intense colors can be fatiguing, and I'm feeling that too now that you're mentioning it. Let me just reduce it down to the next pass and let me know if that works for you. So we're able to save it from them, picking a different design that I didn't want them to pick. And I resolved the color issue and they were just happy, as a Beaver. Now, was it. You know, I'll tell you one more story, I was working on this main title sequence and I'm not even a year out of school, and it's for a movie with, at that time one of the biggest movie stars, Arnold schwarzenegger, right? And I was working on a sequence for a company called RGA La. And I was working late at night, and then my boss, Kyle walks over and he's like, Chris, I don't know, do you like that color? Am I like this color? He goes, OK. It was like this really intense green color. So the next day, he goes to present this to Arnold Schwarzenegger and the producers on the Hollywood lot. And he comes back and he and he tells me the story of what happened because I was like, so how did your meeting go? Because back then I'm like, I want it to be in that meeting with Arnold. I wasn't invited, so he goes, you know what? I showed it to Arnold and he hated it. He hated the whole thing. And he's like, he's trying to do as Arnold Schwarzenegger. I hate it. You know, it's like, OK, Oh my god, this thing that we worked on all night. He hates, we're going to lose the job. But here's what Kyle did. He's like, what do you hate about this? And then Arnold's like, Oh. Is it I don't like green. And cows like so we just changed the color. You'd be OK. And he goes, Yeah. OK, what if we made it blue, you like blue? And he is, Yes. So Kyle calls me, is that Chris, change all the green to blue? He's like, I knew I shouldn't have trusted you. We're just joking about it. We change it to blue. Arnold approved it, and that's how I worked on my first major main title sequence for a big budget film. Literally just swung the hill from green to blue. What was done? Color is subjective, it's emotional. And I'm not here to tell you one color superior to the other. And there's no such thing as an ugly color. It's just designers who make ugly designs and blame it on the color. Make it work, man. I like the green. He didn't. How am I supposed to know that? That's it, and then you make the change. There's a lot of lessons to learn from that conversation because, you know, at that point, Kyle was already like one of the most famous main title designers in the world. And he didn't let his ego get in the way. And who am I? Is a crap kid designer just graduated from high school going to tell somebody this color superior to that color, says who says a not knows, you know, still wet behind the ears. One year out of school designer. Out of design school doing theoretical design. I'm not going to do that. And that's how I win clients. OK, any other quick questions here related to what we just talked about? I'm looking for colored questions here. I've got to tell you, Darren, clients don't ruin the work. It's their work, by the way. They paid for it. They may ask for things that you don't like that you don't love. Just work on your communication skills and just realize they live with the design and you don't. And if you love your design. So much, finish the design. Do a great job for them and then change it and then upload the one that you want on the website. Everybody's happy that way. And if you've ever hired anybody to do work for you, an illustrator, an interior designer or an architect, you will feel very differently about this idea that the client ruins the design. So when the architect comes in or the interior designer says, I look, I like gold and champagne, and then you're like, oh, that doesn't really fit with my ethos and my vibe, and they say, back to you, you're going to ruin the design. Stop ruining my work. It's like, Holy crap, I thought this was my house and I'm paying you money to do a job. I don't like gold and champagne, and just like, you know, right now. Doesn't it feel right for me, and if they can't convince you, then that's your prerogative. Remember, they make your life possible. They allowed you to pay the rent to keep your employees happy to save up for a rainy day. So we've got to move away from this confrontational. It's us versus the client. If you keep doing that, it's going to be a war every time, and it's very fatiguing. Now, if you want to be an artist, be an artist, you know, develop such a strong personal style that people only hire you to do what you do. And that's fine. But then you have to get to that level and you have to keep saying no to every single person who wants something other than what you want and you can do to that is your right. And that's your prerogative to say, I only use futura extra bold. I like Pantone orange color and I only want to do thick vector lines. You want to work with me or not. And if you do that, then that's what you do. No problem. And you keep doing that until your super famous doing it and then nobody will bother you again. But that's like being a design artist. OK, I'm going to wrap up this call. I think. I think that's it for me. Do you know what, chris? I think that if you stop the recording. I see a lot of new people, if someone wants to hang out with me and just say Hi. I can explain a little bit about the group. If you want to leave. Absolutely we can do that in the end of call if you want to stay new people. So I do want to say a couple of things before I stop the recording. The first thing I want to say is if we can all learn to apply a few of the things that we've discussed over the last four calls about objection handling, about being curious, about asking questions, being neutral and choosing language that's not violent to address the Raging Bull. And just to keep asking questions that's open and to work as an advisor versus someone who is self-interested in leading the client to a very specific direction. Learning how to bring up the conversation or the subject of money early that is one of the most important factors determining a fit and you want to move poor fits off of your plate as quickly as possible. And that's done through positioning, but that's a conversation for another day. OK and for all of you, please. And I'll say this and I could be wrong about this, obviously. But I prefer not to get into personal dialogue because it's a waste of time. I know that makes me like a robot. But I tell you, talk about the things that matter to your client right now. Most of them are in a hurry. Most of them don't have time to waste and then become their friend later. Now, if we got to a deal like, for example, I was talking to jewel on that clubhouse call, right, and we were talking about coaching and helping her to get to 102,000 in a year. And then at the end, when she finally seemed like she agreed. And I said, look, I'm not really trying to sell you this, but I'll help you do this and then you can see my tone totally change. Like, I'll see you inside the pro group member ship and we'll talk and I'll help you just be sure to ask me questions and gauge there I will help you. That's like we got the business stuff done, and now we have ice cream. I don't have ice cream first, because I don't even know if I like you yet. OK, so save that for later. And this, if you ever listen to my role plays with mau mau almost always will start with like trying to be somebody's friend, and then it just splinters into thousand different directions. The conversation gets really muddy, and it's like, no, you know, just let go of that part because he must have been like the social butterfly. Most voters most likely to become everybody's best friend in high school. That's Mo. It's good for life. Not so good for business. All right, I'm going to stop the recording. Thanks, everybody.
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