Overcoming Objections: The Socratic 6

OK thumbs up, all right. Yes, yes, Yes. All right. OK I think we're on call number 1. I didn't label the last call, which was two. I think we're on call 1. We're going to continue talking about sales and objections. Just a quick recap. In case you weren't there for the first or the second call on this, this is the third call we talked about Raging Bull. OK actually, before I do that, the whole thing I want to teach you about how to deal with sales objections is to be more curious and to ask more questions. This is critical to be more curious, to ask more questions. This is critical to your success. No answers, just more questions. And today we're going to do something a little different. I woke up in the dream state. I think I figured out how to do this. And what we'll see today is going to be a little bit of an experiment. And I think will work well. OK so the first thing that you want to be aware of is this concept called the Raging Bull. It's one of the six ways that I teach about how to overcome sales objections, and I call it the Socratic six. So number one is the raging bull, and this is the person who's coming in at you with a lot of emotion that could be anxious. They could be sad. They could be angry, more often than not, they're angry or they're being really disrespectful. They're in a rush. The mistake that you would do would be to ignore this. Or would you want to do? I'm using Chris Voss language here is you want to label the emotion. You just want to identify what's going on because you're feeling it and to not respond to that. The other person goes unchecked. They're not aware that they're putting out this energy or they are aware, and they need to just be gently reminded that when you're reading it. And so oftentimes if they come in and they're really angry and you can just ask them, like, is everything ok? Sounds like something's upsetting you? And since we just met, maybe I did something inadvertently I didn't know. Or they're like, really, they're really depressed about something, they're sad. And if you were just a continue moving forward with a cell, you're totally missing a moment here and they're going to feel disconnected. The thing is, you want to build this thread between the two of you. And the more threads that you're able to build a stronger the connection is. So if you're talking about pricing or something and you just feel them withdraw and you just keep pushing forward and you keep pushing forward, you send in the proposal and then they ghost on you. And I hear about this all the time on the internet. Oh, my clients ghosted on me after I sent them the proposal. And almost every single time when I hear that, I know that it's a failing of the creative person, not the failing of the prospective client. You have an agenda, you're like a train. You can't stop and you keep pushing, pushing, pushing. So if you feel like the person is like having an issue and you can tell. You can tell, because if it's not genuine, enthusiastic, yes, let's do this. That's right. I'm comfortable with that. I'm loving this. Then it's not a positive. And so I'm listening for those breaths that somebody will take like the. Yeah, I think I can do that. See, that's hesitation. That's politeness. That's like social norms. And if you don't pick up on that right away, you're going to lose the sale. So whenever I hear hesitation, I'll say something like, oh, is it me or are you uncomfortable with this number? Like, well, you know, to tell you the truth. This is way more money than I thought I was going to spend. What were you hoping that would come in for? Then you open the dialogue and you keep doing this until you feel like, Oh yeah, that's the no. Or that's the approach. I think I'm going to recommend you guys over the competitors. So this is where you have to tap into your inner emotional self and empathize and be really attentive to these microexpressions. And if you notice any change in energy, you have to talk about it. Some other ways that you can talk about is, would say something like, it sounds like it seems to me like it appears like. Labeled emotion and so that we can talk about it and speaking, the motion diffuses the energy of the emotion. OK so when there's a negative energy, you can just feel it and you just say it out loud. All of a sudden it's like, Oh yeah, you're right, I'm in a rush. You know what? This is not fair to you. Let's let's reschedule this call. I want to be in a better state, a mental state. And you say, OK, happy to. OK, the next one that we talked about was the double down, which we tried to practice, but it got all out of control. So we'll talk about the double down, the double down, if you just think about it is like, I agree with you and I can't fight with you or you can't fight with me if we're both in agreement, right? So the example of this is that's a really high price. And you would just say what that is a really high price. What price were you hoping for? Oh, this is really complicated. OK, I can see how this is complicated. Let's try and simplify this. Where am I losing you? I just agree. And more. More often than not, if you ever listen to me, do the live sales role play with real clients? You hear that I agree a lot and that's how I flip the conversation. Because before we can move to where you want to go, the pivot, I have to first embrace. So I'm going to embrace what you have to say. So it kind of sounds something like this, like just agree with them. It doesn't matter what they say. Just agree. And then as a follow up question like what or how or when or where? I would say stay away from the why question, why questions are dangerous until, you know, how to use them, ok? And so what I'm going to do today is I'm going to tell you, I'm just going to teach you from one of our courses, ok? It's the $500 course. It's part of the business bootcamp. I'm going to teach it to you today. And if you think, Oh my god, I need this for whatever reason more than what we did today, you can buy the course if you want. I have a typo here. Let me just fix this real quick. All right, we're back. So this is the six you can screen capture this, this will be a good time to screen capture this and then you master the principles and mastering the principles is just really about getting in enough repetitions. So many of us don't have enough business opportunities. So when we're presented with a problem, we're like, scream, like, Oh my God. And then we go to like default script mode, which isn't really about being present. OK, now when you see me do a role play, you could sit there and you could probably identify one of the six or a combination of two. But I'm not sitting there thinking, oh, it's the Raging Bull card. I need to play that or I got to do the yin yang. I'm not thinking like that. Essentially, what happened was I was on a flight from Madrid to Barcelona or something like that. And I sat down to think, like, how is it that I'm able to do this because I want to teach other people how to deal with objections. I've done hundreds of client calls for millions of dollars. It kind of boils down to these six things. That's why I'd call it the Socratic six, and they're all question based. They're just reminders for you to ask questions. OK, here they go. And I'll explain them. I've already explained number one and number two the Raging Bull and doubling down the double down. Ok? the Hall of mirrors is when somebody asks you a question and you have no answer. You don't know what to do. It's the Hall of mirrors says if they ask the question, you just asked the same question back at them. And the reason why is people love to tell you their ideas and their opinions. They love to give you answers. So if you're throwing a really difficult question, all you do is ask the question back. It takes a little creativity. But you just ask the question right back at them. Write the yin YANG is a logic argument, you know, that symbol yin yin yang, it's like equal Black parts and white parts. It's really a beautiful symbol. And it's a logic argument that says, if this is true, then the opposite must be untrue. The opposite must be false. So what I'm doing, oftentimes when I'm debating or arguing with someone is I'm looking for the one thing that makes their statement untrue. This is like a science approach, right? So the other day I was on a clubhouse call and there was a woman who was a reporter. She was living in Malaysia, and she had said something like, I want to grow my social influence. But here in Malaysia, especially because I'm a reporter as an influencer. It has a really negative connotation. So what should I do? OK, so if you accept that statement to be true, you will start to try to answer that question in my mind. I hold a healthy amount of suspicion that most people don't truly think through what it is that they think and say. So it's actually much easier for me not to prove that I'm right, but to prove that they're wrong. OK, so Lolo was in that room, I don't know Lola's here right now, but Lolo is giving a bunch of different answers. And very good advice, very sound in the whole time she was talking. It gave me time to think. All I do is think about like, is there an instance where somebody of note like a journalist? Can be an influencer in it for not for it to feel icky or gross or anything else. OK, so here's what I asked, or I only asked her one question. Ask this question is said are authors considered influential? And she's like, OK, you're right, I'm dying. And that was it. I was just looking for what if this is true is the equal and opposite truth. I'm looking for the one way where it isn't true. And I can break the argument. I can break the thinking. And then she's like, OK, OK, let me try again. Let me say this. And then we did it one more time. And then she said, OK, I give up. You're right. And this is the Queen's Gambit. In my mind, I'm searching for the move that's going to checkmate, and I was telling Mo this story. He's like, it's so funny how you're able to do this, how can you see the move? I'm looking for the move that I know that they can't win. When it comes to me, then I asked him that question and then they're stuck. I already know the game is over. Just they don't know it yet. That's why they fight. Same thing with Lola, give you another example before Lola joined the group. Lola asked this question. Her question was, you know, after I finished doing work for a client and establish these really clear boundaries as to what it's supposed to do, and then I give it to them. And then afterwards, it's like they ruin it. How can I prevent them from doing this? Because it's really bothering me? OK OK, on the surface, it seems very reasonable. And you may yourself have thought this too, like, oh, I delivered to the website, and now it's a different website. I gave them an identity to design system and then they changed it. I wrote them the messaging like how to write copy. I gave them 10 examples. I gave them guidelines and then now it's ruined. And so I asked soliola a few questions, but I'll tell you afterwards what was going on in my mind. Ok? the question that I asked her first was do you, did you get paid to do this? She goes, Yes. The full amount, Yes. OK and do you consider what you've done as a gift? She goes, why? I wouldn't call it a gift. I'm like, OK, how about a tool? She goes, OK, I can accept a tool. See, Lola knew that the CheckMate move was coming because as soon as she would agree to, it's a gift. She knew the next move. So we're playing chess with each other, right? She would not agree to the word gift because she knew if you give someone a gift, it's no longer yours. You give it in the spirit of generosity with a whole heart. And it's whatever they want to do with that at that point. So so she wouldn't agree to the word gift, so she said it is a tool. I said it was fairly paid for. So what ownership do you have over that tool. Once you've sold it, like if you go in the store and you buy a tool from the shop, keep whose tool is it? She goes, you're right. I said, OK, so if we change our energy around this, maybe it's an opportunity for us to open up a dialogue with the client instead of being angry at them. Maybe we can look at it through the lens of their confused. Maybe they need help when they just don't know what's obvious to you is not obvious to them. Why don't you call them up? And with that, Lolo was able to move on. OK all right, the next one is called the wolf. You know what wolfs do or wolves do they howl, right? Oh, that's what they do. They howl. So whenever you're asked to do something ridiculous, like, hey, yeah, cut the budget in half, we could do this. What are you going to do? You're going to be the wolf are going to ask how? How that's what you're going to do. Like, how do you propose? How do you propose? I could cut the budget in half. How do you propose I can deliver this in half the time? How do you propose I do this without any additional help? Whatever the ridiculous objection that you're hearing and in fact, this is the most insane thing I can hear. Just ask them, how do you propose how? Just keep asking how ok? And the last one, the reason why it's last is the trickiest one to pull off, and it's the five-year-old. Now you could be single without children. You know how children behave. It's all the same. Right you need to go to sleep. Why, dad, you need to eat these vegetables, why dad, you need to floss, why you just keep asking why? But the tone here has to be like nailed, because if you ask why, with the wrong tone, it's going to put the other person in a defensive state. So the way that I do that is you ask why slowly? OK, you have to put some pause in there. And if they say something crazy. Like, we really need to make this video. why do you think you need to make a video? And then they going to explain it, and more often than not, when you ask the person why in the right tone, it will stop them dead in their tracks because most people don't think why they need to do something, they just need to do something. This is why a lot of us get caught up in busy work. So that's the five-year-old. OK, so this is the Socratic six, right? So what I want to do is I'm going to stop this right now. I'm going to first take some questions from you. And then. I'm going to do a live role play. I'm going to explain what's going on. And then I'm going to create a breakout room where all of us are going to go into and we're to work with each other. Here's the thing. It's $150 to be part of this group. And I've said this before, if I can't earn you more than $150 worth of value. You need to leave. We need to not see each other anymore. So I think the fastest way I can earn like a full year's membership with you so that you don't leave is to help you win one job for a little bit more money. And then I just wash my hands. Right? some of this. I worked with my business coach for 13 years. The business coach paid for 13 years in his first or second major consultation with me, and I booked him for 13 years, not because I needed help for 13 years is because he already paid for it. In the first year I worked with them, he taught me how to ask questions, and it went from $2.2 million to $3.9 million. So he helped me to grow in a way that I could not grow. He gave me a tool, a weapon, a device, a tactic, and I applied it over and over again and I just kept winning work. And in the jobs has got bigger and bigger. So that's how he and I wound up working and why I wound up paying him more than a quarter of a million. OK because he already earned it for me. The rest was just what they say is gravy. OK so I want to do a live role play. I want to see somebody who's done a lot of work with clients who are just nasty, mean impossible to deal with. I will help you. And then we'll break it down, and then we're going to create 30 for breakout rooms. And then I send you in there, but we're going to do something a little tricky. This time. I'm not going to tell you just yet, and hopefully it works. All right. OK, so if you have a lot of client experience and they keep throwing a problem at you, but you're not able to solve it and you keep losing work because of this, I want you to think about it. Don't do anything yet. Just think about it, be very clear, you know who this person is. And then I want you to just raise your hand. And we're going to be in the pocket. Now here's the rule when we do role plays with each other, if you break role play, you're going to get put on my naughty list. When Christmas comes around, you're not going to get a gift from me. You cannot break role play. You stay in the mind of the clients method. You go full method. You pull a Christian bale, you do not break character no matter what. Not for lunch. Not for bathroom. You stay in character. OK, now nobody's going to raise their hand. Now I just want to give everyone time to think because usually people get sugar happy with raising their hands and then the introverts in the room have no shot. And if nobody volunteers. Who's your role, chris? What's that? Who are you in this? I'm going to be the vendor. I need you to be a bad client. Ok? and I'll show you how to apply the Socratic six. We'll break it down. So each and every one of you that are watching or listening can say, oh, he's doing this, and then he's doing that. Oh, that's where the pivot happened, and that's where the death trap was set. And now the client is stuck. Mm-hmm Yeah, OK. I will wait for someone. I can do it. If someone else is not doing, but I think you have people. Oh, sorry, OK, sorry. Oh, sorry, my dance partner. Ok? yeah, sorry. It's really tough, you guys. Yeah, she's real tough. Let me. You go, Shari. Get my pen out here. This is critical that giving him a hard time. Go ahead. Sorry, what did you want to say? I have to be the nasty guy, right? Yeah, you're the client. I mean, you could take any stance you want. The more realistic you play this, the better this is going to be. This is not acting. This just as much as possible. Think about this as real life. Now, for some people who are sitting here thinking, this doesn't work in real life, it only works in role plays, then I can say I'll sell you a creative service right now. And we won't even do role-play. I'll just sell you something you don't even want to buy, and we'll work on that together. OK, but hold on to that thought for a second. OK, now what I want everyone to do is notice two things. One state of mind. I'm going to be curious. I just want to know. I want to be helpful. I want to serve. That's the state of mind. I have no agenda. Like, there's nothing up my sleeves. There's nothing here. I just want to help shower you, ok? Number two. I keep my mouth closed for as long as possible until I understand. I asked questions to get clarity to demonstrate the understand. My main goal is to build rapport. I want her to feel that she can trust me, that I have her best interests at heart. And the way that I do that is that pen and paper just to prove it to you. I don't just pretend to write. I really do write. OK so when you guys go to do this, think about your state of mind. Think about how you're paying attention. Think about how you're responding and building rapport. This is really critical. OK, I want to make this one feel as much as possible, like a clubhouse call, but more interactive with video. So we're going to go deep. We're going to understand this. We're going to break this apart. So get your questions ready, ok? So, Shari, what kind of services do you normally sell to your clients? I and brand identity, brand identity and strategy and brand identity. And strategy and what is the typical like if you look at the last 12 or 10 projects, the last 10 projects you did, where they brand identity, where they strategy or both? Or what? They were mainly brand identity, very loyal clients and, yeah, mainly brand identity rather than anything. Right? and what is the average price in which you're selling brand identity for? Not very hot. Go ahead. There's no judgment here, any number. I'll say I'll say average, right? Say one more time you cut out 5 to 700. OK and what should it be? I think it should be between one, 5 to 3,000 more or less, honestly. OK OK. Where are you based out of again? London London, OK. You cannot live in London for that. No, man, I can't. OK, we've got to change this. All right. All right. So I think a good number would be like 3k. Is that OK with you? Yes perfect. OK so if OK, there's some positioning issues here, I can already tell, like I can tell in the answers. We need to work on that together. Not this second, but we will. OK and so what kind of client are you? What industry are you in? What do you do? I'm going to be the client that works in charity, right? I'm going to impersonate one. Yeah, that I have in mind. OK I work with a lot of charities. No, I haven't worked on, let's say that there is one person that refers a lot of people to me and they mainly come from, let's say that their startups, Black owned businesses, ok? Not necessarily charity, but always the kind of people who try to get the bargain right. The bargain hunters, OK, we'll call you the archetype of the bargain hunter, OK, this is good because a lot of people are going to recognize this person right away. I mean, raise your digital. Use the emoticon at the bottom like the hand clap. If you've had a bargain Hunter or two in your life, that just drives you bananas. Let me see your icon. There we go. OK only one person. OK, there we go. It should light up like a Christmas tree right now. There I see it. OK, this is some of the reactions. Yes, under Reactions there. Thank you very much, Emily. OK the bargain Hunter. The bargain Hunter got a bargain Hunter. OK, all right. All right. So startups, when you say startups, I just want to be clear because I didn't know what the word startup meant. A startup doesn't mean you just started your business. A startup means you're a highly scalable company. That's Silicon Valley venture capitalists look at very fondly. They're looking for the unicorn, right choice of words. Very poor choice of words. No, no. It's OK. It's an opportunity for us to be clear. So a new business owner is, what we're talking about, I think, right, shari? Yes, that's exactly. OK, good. Good now, for some reason, your audio is cutting in and out. I don't know if it's just me. Let me move, then let me move. Ok? you move. Yeah because for the role-play to work, I have to be able to hear you. And there's going to be very exciting. And I just want to let you know, Hogan is rooting for me to go down here in all caps, so cruel. OK this is unplanned, unscripted. I have no idea what's about to happen. And I always preface the role plays with it could be a total disaster. I can have a poop pie in my face. It's always possible. It's like it's all smashed up in my face. delicious. OK all right. Sorry are you ready? Yeah OK. Audio sounds better. So here's the thing. Before we start. You act as best as possible as one of these people, so we make it as real as possible. OK I don't want you to give it to me, but I also don't want you to fight me just because you want to fight me because, you know, I can be very convincing at times. So I just want you to be a real person and be that person. So get into character. Because once we start, we don't break into, I say and scene. OK that's your note to say it's over and I won't break it either. I may break and say, pause. I'm going to explain something to the group, but you ignore all of that. OK OK, so here we go. So do I call you or do you call me? I'll call you right. A referral, right? Yes OK. Ring ring. Hello Hi. Hi, Chris. I'm sorry. Give me your number! She said that you could actually help with brand strategy. Yes and so I am in the middle of pivoting and changing in my business, and I really, really need a new logo. Is that something that you can help me up with? I most definitely can. Some things that you just mentioned right now, you're pivoting. What are you pivoting from and what are you pivoting to? So basically, I used to do anything in terms of I'm building a communication agency, but I really wanted to focus on brand strategy only. So I'm let's say when I say I'm pivoting, I'm not refining my services to specialize in one thing only, but also I would like to change my target audience and not focus only on Black owned businesses, but focus on people who are a bit more purposeless. OK, that sounds very exciting, purpose led. OK will they still be Black owned businesses that are purposely? Not necessarily. OK, so you're opening it up a little bit? Yes tell me more about what purpose led means to you. So to make it simple, if you are a person who wants to challenge the status quo and to have and you have a business who wants to have a social positive social impact, right, I want to help them. They are the people. Yeah got one social impact, right? Yes OK. How do you usually measure social impact? I wouldn't say that I would measure the social impact, the more the intention if that makes sense. OK intention, OK, this is perfect. And why? Why are you moving away from the focus previously, from Black owned businesses to now purposely? Is there anything that made you wake up one day and say this, I need to change what's going on? Yes so I encountered many people, Black owned businesses that were I think it's a matter of the mindset, right? Many of them are stuck in the scarcity mindset and don't necessarily value graphic design. And I wanted to specifically support African businesses. And then after being three months in the Congo, right, I've realized that they are not necessarily ready. So before I could sell my services to them. There is a huge amount of educational work that I would need to do to explain what it is. I get it. Thank you for sharing that with me, so that raised another question for me. Are your clients based out of the uk? Are they based out of congo? And they based mainly in Europe, Europe, ok? I wanted to scale to Congo, but then I kind of put a stop to it, right? I see. OK so if I may, if I may just recap really quickly. Your your initial business as a communication agency was to serve Black owned businesses, but you found that many of them have a scarcity mindset and they don't value to sign. And so now you're opening it up a little bit because it also resonates with your soul that companies that have the intention to cause or social cost, they want to make an impact in the world. Then you're opening it up, right? Yes and they're based out of Europe. OK, now you need an identity to reflect that, right? Exactly OK. Is is this important to you because oftentimes clients will ask me to do work that it's not really important, it's not going to make an impact on their business. And of course, then I think it's a waste of time and money to do something like that. Is this important to you? It is very important, I think it's the fundamental of my business, if that makes sense, because when I think about brands, it's not only the visuals, but it's also being able to have guidance on how I can differentiate myself in the market because it's a very, very competitive market, especially in the UK. Yeah, I noticed when you talked about this that there was a little bit of a sigh, like, did things not work out in the past with your logo? Mainly myself. OK and thank you for your honesty. I'm meeting myself, I wouldn't say it's corrupt. It's pretty simple, but it's just that there was nothing fought for, right? No, when I look at things, how I picked my colors, how I picked up anything, it was more of what do I want to look like? Right? what is it that I like? How do I want people to see me? But I'm not sure, because although this is what I sell, right, it's very hard for me to do it for myself. Yeah OK, so you need help like from a person who does this all the day, right? That they can use the guide through this process, right? So a lot of this is instinctual and you're doing it from your gut. OK I think I can help you. But here's the thing I'm wondering. I don't want to go too far in this conversation and realize that we're not a good fit for each other financially, like what you say resonates with me, I think I can help you. But we have to get to the budget question now. Typically, when I work with clients like you and an audience here, I would probably spend a little bit more time, but I'm just being mindful of time here. Ok? is do you have somewhere around $5,000 to do this identity system? So that's how much it would cost. Yeah, roughly, I just want to make sure we're like in the same ballpark here. OK my I was willing to pay $500. Wow, OK, OK, fine. Where'd you get that number 500 from so? Well, because that's what I can afford. Right that's when I think about my bank account right now and how much it was willing based on, you know, my expenses and everything, how much I was willing to spend. Mm-hmm But I also wonder, like, do people pay you five k? Like, who pays you five kids to do that? Yeah, actually, people paid me even more. I just wanted to establish a baseline to make sure we're in the same ballpark. And it doesn't sound like we are. So there's a misalignment here. Look, I think you're a good person, everything, and I just I'd love to help you. It's just I can't do work for much less than that. I have to just be honest with you, and I'm not even telling you I'm worth it, I'm not telling you you should pay this much, but if you want to work with me, that's where we're going to need to be. OK don't you do packages like where I can have a logo and the marketing collateral? What would I, what would that include basically, if I pay you five k? Like, what would I get in there? Yes very good. Thank you for asking that question. OK, now we got over the initial hurdle of that number, which is I would do like a competitive audit for you. I would do several rounds of logo design. I would build you out three pieces of print collateral. And so you'd have to identify with me what it is that you want. It could be a letterhead, it could be a shipping label and a business card or something like that. Some people opt for social media stuff and I could design that for you, but it's usually three pieces and it gets scale up or down depending on what you need. But I just need to make sure we're in the ballpark of price because we're like 10 times apart, right? So there's a pretty big gap here. OK, Yeah. Yes the decision, I know. Well, I'm actually thinking because to be honest with you, I don't think I even need the printing collateral. I will need a website. I think the website is way more important. Yes, I agree. And I assume that it cost more if I had the website up to it, right? Yeah Yes. And you know, I specialize in doing brand identity design and the web design. I would probably be better if I referred you to someone to do that part because I want you to have the best person doing the work for you, and I don't specialize in that. But you're right, I think a website is really important to your business. OK listen, I'm going to be honest with you. Yes it's a high amount. It is a high amount and. I am a bit scared. To spend that amount of money. Yes, because if I see it as an investment. And pay right, even more. My question is like, would I be able to kind of make the return on investment, right? Yeah so that that's the thing, that's what worries me a little bit. I like that. I like that you're bringing this up. You're a savvy businesswoman, and I respect that as an entrepreneur myself. I want to make sure the money I spend is going to be worth it to me. And I can't tell you because I don't know your business well enough that a new identity system is going to do that for you. So if you don't mind, may I present some options to you? Yes OK, go ahead. I think the website is probably the most important thing, I think you need to get like really strong messaging out there since you're repositioning, that's going to require copywriting. Maybe somebody with some marketing skills to help you design and build a new site. Would it be horrible if you just use your current logo and just move forward with a new website? And then at some point when you think you most definitely, I want to do this and then you just kind of consider me when you're ready to do that. That's not a bad idea at all. Right? it really isn't. Yeah, Yeah. Do you need some names for people to call for website design? I would love that. Yeah, I can dig into my Rolodex here and find some names for you. How much money do you want to spend for the website? I wondered now I'm getting those seriously. I'll be happy to push up to 1,000. How much? 1,000 $1,000 for a website shoot. I don't know anybody can do a website for 1,000. I'd be scared to do website for 1,000. I mean, do you want to do like one of those? What is it like one of those site hosting things? Or they could just build a site for you? You know what? I'm talking about Squarespace. That's what I was thinking about or picks. You want one of those kind of websites? I actually hate those. Me too. But you know, that's what you can afford. I mean, think about the copywriting alone. That's going to be way more than $1,000. And we find a way that if I do copywriting myself? Yeah, well, you are a communications agency, you can probably do the writing yourself. You supply all the copy, the strategy. Do you have an idea of how much you would cost? I mean, realistically, right? Forget about what it wants to pay or what I'm willing to pay. Realistically, how much would it cost? Without getting too deep into your business? Everything I'm just going to ballpark something here. The people I know who build websites are going to be anywhere between 5 to 30,000 minimum. But maybe this again, like you don't need this. Not sure. OK OK, well, you won't kill me to have a look and talk to them, right? It would not kill you. It's good to be an informed buyer, right? Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Sure, sure. Sure, sure. So should we close there and say that I'll contact you once, I'm sure I can pay. Minimum 5K for brand identity. Yeah so why don't we do this? I'll send you an email. I'll go through and I'll find like two people that I know. I think they're good people, but you do need to do your due diligence and see if they're a good fit for you. Have a conversation with them and see just for your own edification, look like, what they can do. And if it doesn't make you feel like warm and tingly inside, then you're overpaying, right? And then at some point, if you feel like you need a new identity system, I'd love to help you. What you're saying connects. I resonate with that, so I wish you the very best. Thank you. Chris, Thanks for your time. Thank you. Sorry best of luck to you and see. OK, now let's stop. Thank you, thank you, thank you. OK, now let's go over that. I would love for people to make some comments. What did you see? Did you notice anything? What would you do differently? What would you apply moving forward? What was the energy like? I'm just throwing out a lot of random questions for you. OK And then you guys just keep putting that in there. I'm not going to say anything yet. OK and where's hulking? Why was I destroyed where I can't even see him? I'm like looking for you. Usually I can tell your desk setup, where are you? Unmute yourself. No, you weren't destroyed. What are you hoping for? No, I'm joking, joking tone, but maybe a bit rougher objections. Maybe I was hoping for. Yeah do you know why the why that didn't happen? And I can guess, because of the inquisitive, curious approach from with getting into the client's need some at once on a deep level. It's like it's hard to argue with someone that doesn't want to argue with you, right? I mean, you have to be a really nasty person. Like, let's say, like I have the energy of like a big hearted grandma, like how good are you with grandma? She's going to bake you some cookies and make sure you've got a warm sweater and everything is good. It is kind of hard to argue. I mean, some people do argue against that grandma, but I try to approach it like that. I'm trying to be a kind, compassionate person. I don't want to close the sale. If it's the wrong fit, I'm going to walk away, but I want to do that with grace. I don't want anybody to feel bad about who they are and where they are. You know, I'm never too good to look down on people. Never so if you guys keep that in mind. OK, so that's one thing I can't get destroyed because I don't want to be destroyed because I'm trying to I'm trying to help. And I think people can see that. OK somebody else point out something. Yeah Rolodex. And well, I was trying to figure out what the modern day equivalent is. Connect with my LinkedIn buddies. OK I know Raul has his hand up in. Cuyler has his hand up, but maybe it's for something else because their roles handles up way before, right? Yeah, he had. He has something when we started. I also have an input, but I can take it after them. OK I just it was just a show of hands when you said show a show of hands who have experienced this. Oh, I see, I see. I don't even know how to take the hand down. I can do that for you. Very yeah, no problem. Kyler, did you have a question? Hey, Chris. Yes, I did had a question around the time when you asked, is this important and the impact this will have for your business? Yeah how do you relate that back to the money conversation? Because nine times out of 10, they're going to say, of course, this is important. You know, that's why we're talking now. For me, in my experience, has been hard to relate that back to. Well, it's not important enough, right, when we get into the budget conversation. Yeah you notice I did ask that question. I walked away from it. I just totally abandoned ship because I got a spider sense feeling that she's not going to be able for this. So that's why I really just hard pivoted to like, here's what it's going to cost. Because I remembered that her the general person who reaches out to her thus far is a bargain hunter, so I want to deal with the bargain Hunter talking value to bargain hunters almost impossible. So this is where I just have to state the price and be OK with that. OK, now in my mind, I left a lot of room. If she was willing to walk me there, I would have taken it down to 3k. I'm not even taking it out to 2K or one cable. It began really high because there's no penalty for beginning really high and then she can walk me back. I'm like, OK, you know what? I really connect with you. Here's what we can do if you promise that we're going to stick to three rounds of changes and you can be very clear and decisive. And if I do a great job for you that you refer me to two friends, I can do it for 3,500. I would have just brought it down, but she wasn't showing any interest. I'm not going to start negotiating against myself. It will seem very desperate if I feel her withdrawing and without showing any interest for me to start lowering my price, then she knows this was an inflated price. You were trying to treat me and that's a really bad position to be in. So Shari wanted to open that door. I would have happily walked through that and taken it there and close the deal. OK, Sara, you have a question, I'm going to come back to Kyla in a second. So sorry, go ahead. Yeah, so how should I have done that? Like, for example, to come and just ask, like, should I have asked for discounts like trying to get you to lower your price only if you wanted to work with me? Did you want to work with me? I did. So why didn't you say so? I'm sorry. Seriously, I struggle with kind of it's like, you're telling me you're giving a price, right? And you're kind of me. I'm expensive. I'm seeing you as kind of unreachable and you're giving me somebody that I'm not necessarily be cheaper, but you're giving me an option to work with somebody else. So I'm taking what you're giving rather than go and try to get what I want. Yeah, see, so people want to get what they want, regardless of what you try to give them, right? And the less I try to give you of me, the more, you'll want me. It's kind of weird. So I'm like, you know, no harm, no foul, you know, I'll help you with some friends and maybe some people I know who can help, but then usually what happens in people like, wait a minute, I'm going to find a way to afford you. You know what, I was going to buy this other thing that I don't need. I'm going to make this work because it's really important. So what happened there in that role play? As you said, it's important, but you didn't act like it was important. If it's not important or urgent and it's not solving a business problem, I don't want to do it. I see. See so that's where there was some like cognitive dissonance, you can't say simultaneously. This is important, but then not make it important. So you misdiagnosed yourself, you really don't need an identity, you can use your own logo that you made yourself. You could just build a website, and maybe that's more important. And if I was in the website building business, that would be music to my ears, but it's not. Get it. See? and that's OK. Look, if tomorrow you had said, you know what? It's not a website, I need a new interior for my office, I'm like, OK, let's examine that. But usually with bargain hunters, I'm not going to sit here and try to excavate value because it's too much work, it's just too much work. Like, if you're a high roller, I would sit there and work on that with you, like, oh, what do you think that would generate a lot of money? OK, and then I would price you at that point. OK, so you say that there's no point in trying to explain the value behind what you do to a bargain under ok? Yeah, it's a waste of your time. It'll be really frustrating for you. So the bargain Hunter profile states your price, be firm, be helpful. And then be prepared to walk away. The faster that I can get to the more time I have for my life. And just keep doing that until you get one. It's like, wait a minute, Chris, you don't tell me if I can't afford this, I'm going to find money. I'm like, well, I'm not your boss, OK, you're right. Do you want to pay me? I'm happy to take it. I want to challenge you here. Do you? OK, so you're not trying, even trying to explain to a client that don't know so much the value of doing it? I don't try. Forget about it, really. Not for the bargain Hunter. No so you read, OK, interesting, Yeah. So how do you go ahead? How do you spot them? Because like I said, that would be the bargain Hunter because they come to me, right? They call it and like, how much is it going to cost me when I call? That's how much I'm going to charge you. And then most of the time, what I do is that they don't necessarily understand. But then before I talk to them, right? Like, what are the signs that you're aware you can say, oh, this is the type of thing, you know? Yeah, OK, I'll tell you how I know it's because if the owner is calling you. And if you had so many conversations, like if out of the 12 conversations you had previously broke because of price, it's because your position poorly or your marketing isn't right, you're not attracting the right kind of client. OK and allow me to tell you another fishing story. Like everything in my life, I want to tell you a fishing story whenever possible. And so here's an opportunity here, ok? I love fishing. I fish. For many, many years, I didn't realize until my 40s I didn't know how to fish at all. So it took me 40 years of bad fishing that I realized something. OK, so when we were kids, we grew up poor. We didn't have like fishing gear. And so the strategy was tie heavy object to a hook and throw it out in the water and see what you get. You know what you get most of the time you get nothing. And if you catch something, you're going to catch what a bottom feeder, literally a bottom feeding fish and different fish feed in different parts of the water like catfish carp. They tend to be at the bottom. If you're in the ocean, it'll be like a halibut or sharks or junk fish. They happen to be at the bottom. Predators happen to be at the top. The sport fishing like people like the ones at the top. So there was no way in my life I was ever going to catch a salmon sea bass. Anything like a tuna, because they're all at the top. You see what I'm saying, like literally, this is where the whole expression comes in a bottom feeder. Right, so when we cast a line out, we're like, wow, why does all this junk fish keep coming in the line and it's a waste? And the fishing gear, it's called tackle. It's like it ties up my tackle. I lose the hook. What a waste. And now I just got sunburnt the whole day, getting nothing that I want. And they're a pain in the ass to get off the hook. They have spikes and they have like sharp teeth. And, you know, God dang it. OK, and then you put the fish back on the water because they're not very tasty. It's not what you want. And then I learned that there's habitats where fish hang out, and even within one species of fish, they have different habits. So once I learned that now I get on a boat, the wait is only on the line to keep the bait at a certain depth, like 15 feet underneath the surface of the water. And that's it. And so right now, if you keep getting the junk fish, it's telling you wrong bait, wrong hook, wrong place, wrong depth. OK, so and you know, this is a really funny like once I learned to like fish from the pros, when I feel a fish on the line, I can tell you what fish it is before it even comes up to the water. I already know. And so I already know you're a bargain Hunter. I already can tell before we talk about budget, it's going to be a problem. It's going to be a problem. That's why I'll talk about money right away, because I want that fish off the hook. If you find a fish for an hour, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and it's the wrong fish, I just cut the line. And I want to cut the line as soon as I can. Boom! release you back into the wild. Sorry OK, now I want to circle back to Kyler. Let's pretend it's not a bargain Hunter. Let's say it's a value client. And I can tell. You know, I can feel it on the line, right, so when I say how important it is to you, so let's pick it up from there, Kyle, I'll do the dance with you, ok? Let's switch here. This is going to be strange. So we're still on the same idea. Same kind of business. Let me pin you the second screen here. OK, so I'm going to lower your hands, so I don't see that part. OK, so so how important is this to you, kyler? That's very important, crucial. What would he do for your business? Generate more customers, hopefully get people to know about my brand and get the phone's ringing. Wow, that does sound like it's crucial. Ok? generate more customers. Do you know what the lifetime customer value is for you? Maybe about $1000, OK. Yeah how many new customers are you hoping to get? I want to get about I want to generate three more leads to my sales reps and hope and gain one customer out of those three leads. I see. So is that three leads per month? Three leads per week per week, thank you for clarifying. So that's like 12 per month, right? With the hope of closing for. So by my mouth, that's like 4K in New projects times, 12. So you're talking about generating an additional $48,000 in revenue. Right I guess so, Yeah. I mean, did I get it wrong? mean, let me just double check my math here. No, no, I trust your math. OK, so one new customer per week. That's for customers a month times 12, so that's Yeah. Oh, OK. Just double checking the map. Is that what you're hoping for this to do? Yeah, Yeah. 48,000 OK and what seems like a reasonable amount of money to spend against that. Like, you don't want to spend four to eight k, but what do you want to spend? Maybe about five, 3% 3% to 5% OK, I'm not so good with the math, I'm try five percent, let's see where that is. So 10% would be 4,800. And 5% would be 2,400. So like $2,400. So what you want to spend to try and get for the ak? Yeah, that's what I've spent in the past with other video creators and brand strategists and stuff like that. And did it work out in the past when you spent that? It worked for the time. Mm-hmm Yeah I mean, would you go back to them again and spend the same amount of money? No, no, I will come. For a long time, it didn't fit. It was good for the short term, but we didn't prepare for what's going to happen in the long term. OK can you tell me why? What happened? Yeah, know, the experience was great. Still refer the guys there. Great group of people. But we weren't the right fit. They didn't predict what I was. We didn't accomplish our long term goal. We focused too much on the short term, and now I'm in a position where I want to focus for the long road. OK, I'm trying to get clarity on this. Didn't accomplish the long term goal. What was the long term goal? Why do you think? Like, what's your best guess as to why it didn't happen? I think the messaging, not targeting the right people, OK, not positioning ourselves correctly in the market because it leads, we're generating leads, but we're not converting enough. And I think it's because of the lead quality we're getting is not high enough. OK so is this an issue that the videos that you're having? Does it just need to be targeting somebody else in a different place? Could you just be a targeting issue and not a new video? Or do you think it's the video itself and something's wrong with it? Personally, the video seems super kind of old school and 100 percent, I think targeting would definitely help us as well making sure it's seen because right now we're making videos, but it's not being seen by the right people. OK, so I don't I don't do targeting. So that's something that has to be resolved, right? And so maybe at some point you'd be comfortable if we were together putting me in touch with a person. It is your placement so that we can have a unified strategy, does that sound good? Yeah OK. Tell me a little bit about this old school. This is the first critical thing I've heard you say. Like, why did it feel old school? But it didn't, you know, for the videos I watch on YouTube and my competitors, it seems their video seems more modern. Their marketing seems more up to date to the current times where the videos were producing and the content we're producing doesn't seem like that. I'm not happy with them. Ok? if you had to put your finger on it. And just give me a hunch as to what it was, I throw a couple things out and you tell me if one of them sounds right, was it the way it was lit? Was it the color correction? Was it the editing style? Was it the graphics? Was it the styling, the wardrobe? Was it any of those things or something else? I think a blend of everything and the messaging, if I was going to add something to it. OK And how did the messaging come across a superstar or is it voice over? Or something else knows live. It was like talking heads. Yeah, talking head. Talking heads, OK. Oh, I see here. Do you think talking heads? Those videos are effective? It hasn't been so far for us. OK, so I think strategically, I just might have bumped into a problem, ok? I don't want to take up too much of your time. If we were to work together, I would probably really need to study your last campaign, identify campaigns that you really think are effective and put together a strategy for you. Does that sound like that's going to be a better approach to this? I think so to make sure that you understand what we're dealing with, yeah, I think that's a good strategy. OK, now now I want to relate it back to the price here. I cannot do that for the $2,400 we're talking about five percent, like for me, usually when I'm working with a client. I hope you're sitting down for this. I usually charge somewhere North of 10,000. Oh yeah, I know. Well, you're still in your chair. Yeah, I'm sitting down. You're sneezing. I don't want any kind of whiplash here. Yeah talk to me. How are you feeling right now about that 10k? Well, it's definitely I haven't seen a price like that before. Normally, as I mentioned before, it's around the 2,503 1,000. Maybe we haven't spent that kind of money on content or branding before. So, yeah, maybe I'd like to learn a little bit more about what that would entail and the engagement would have with that. And how we can achieve our goals with that. Yeah let me ask you this question in the realm of possibilities, if I sat down and explain a process and get you really, really comfortable and even maybe put you in touch with our clients, I showed you some results, case studies, et cetera. Conceptually, could you see yourself spending K to produce a video campaign? Yes OK. Well, fantastic. Why don't we do this? Allow me a few days. I'll put together something. I'll send it over a tailor made for you. And I'll talk you through it. Probably take 15 minutes and then you decide then if you want to proceed or not, it's that cool. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thanks, Chris. Yeah, so I'll make sure I break down our creative process, how we get the results that we get, what those results look like. And then afterwards, I'll put you in touch with any one of our clients that you want to talk to. OK OK, that's good, so we'll talk in like two, three days. Sweet, thank you. All right. Thanks so much. Thanks, Skyler. Take care. You two and scene? OK, let's talk about that. OK, thank you, thank you. Thank you, Chris. All right. Do you charge K to do a video? I want to. What do you charge now? Probably 5 to 500 to 1,500. OK again, too low. And that's not a value statement. That's just a numerical objective thing. OK, where do you live, buddy? I'm not sure. I'll OK. Yeah, I just moving to Vancouver and OK. For sure. When you moved to Vancouver, you cannot do for that kind of price. You just can't. So I'll tell you something right now. I think there's a bunch of videographers in here. There's a bunch of Canadians apparently Canadian take over, right? Emily dang. All right. All right. OK when you sell video and it's not attached to result, it's going to be a hard to sell video for a lot of money. Yeah here's to me, the no, there's two reasons why you make a video. One is because the videos outrank other kinds of content on Google. If you want to be found, you make a video that has the ideas and keywords that the client wants to be known for. So anybody here who sells videos? OK, I need you to write this part down. The question that you should be asking is, is ranking on Google important for your customers, right? Is it important to them, and you should just ask them, is ranking important? Are you on the top 10 search results for the words you want to be known for their what? Yeah, Yeah. Like the words you want to be known for, like the three words. Can we try to find you right now on the internet without having to type in your name or your company's name? Let's see where you guys rank, and it's going to be terrible. I already know it. So video as an SEO solution. Or Sam becomes inherently way more valuable. So then you can just ask them a simple question if you could pay a certain amount of money to organically be listed on top 10 on google? What would that be? What kind of money would you pay for that kind of result? totally changed the game. I don't sell videos, I sell results on Google Search. That's what I sell. The video is a vehicle. I don't sell logos. I sell. I sell clients the ability to market themselves with an image that they're proud of. The logo just happens to be the vehicle. So to many of us are selling of the thing that we make and not the result that thing gets. Focus on the results. They will change the game. Number two videos should be used for conversion needs to do something for me, not just to make me feel good. OK what will this video do? Well, we want them to sign up on all this great what is one email worth to you? What would you pay for that email? Ok? and you want what? 10 thousand? Ok? oh, you want people to order now, ok? You want them to back your kickstarter? OK, OK. Well, what's that? What are you trying? OK then you put a number next to it. Mm-hmm OK otherwise, you're selling video production services and they can call the AV kids at the local college to do that. You have to separate yourself from that. Now, if you do brand films like in the big commercial world, they're called anthemic like an anthem for the company like ford, you know, Budweiser, the dog, you know, the Dalmatians and the Clydesdale horses, whatever they're called the Big horses. You know, it's like it just makes us feel good. Well, they like to feel good because they spent so much money on feeling good. But most people, they don't have that kind of money. Mm-hmm And brand awareness. It's like air evaporates, it's just it's everywhere, and it's nowhere. OK, so stay away from those things, because unless they're really rich clients. They're not going to pay anything for it. Explainer videos explaining how to use a product. There's money in that, too. Just teach me how to use your product, you'll sell more product. There's a guy in his name is Jim Schofield. I think it's Jim. Jim Schofield. He has this line, I believe. What did he say? He's like we sell products through education. That's it. So he just teaches people how to use something, a camera, a light, a desk, whatever it is. You do like that. Matthew nCino. The late Matthew and Zina, relative to the future, he's still alive. He gets paid just to like, use stuff. So the video is not even, you know, like he's not selling a video, he's selling like, I'm going to do something fun and cool your stuff. It just happens to be in a video format. They'll pay him 30k to do that more. Mm-hmm So that's when you move into a different space. OK all right, think about that. OK, I need to do the role-play, I promise a role play and we want to get into it. Is that ok? I see more hands. May I have your permission or do you guys have a question relative to the first two things we had just done? Mohammed, did you have a question, amy? Alex Richie, who has a question. Mohammed, your first. Chris, actually, I have a question with the first role was there. Yeah so I had a client once who came, who was a bargain hunter, but I pushed him away and he went and hired. Someone was not satisfied with the course, then back and hired me for the price. So my question is, is there any way to identify if a person is trying to look like a bargain hunter, but he's actually hunting for value? Everybody's ultimately hunting for value. They just need to have a conversation with a wallet first. OK, so here's the line I'm going to tell you what to say. OK, I want you to memorize this. I want you to write this down or watch this recording where nine? I'm sorry, we're 11. 71 minutes into the hour. OK, I want you to write this down. OK, you're going to say this because any time something has happened in your past, you use it in the narrative of the now, OK, is what we're going to do. You guys ready? OK, you're going to say like. OK I don't know any I don't know anything about you, but I know that these kinds of things happen. Here's how it usually works with my clients. I tell them price, they have sticker shock. They say, no, Mohammed, we're going to work with someone else. They do it for a bargain. And then three months later to come back, and they agreed to pay the price. The only difference now is they've lost three months and they spent even more than they initially thought they were going to spend. OK, so let's accelerate this process, if you will. OK when this call, and you can call me back in 3 months, it's like, no, no, no, you're right, because then you can explain to them, inevitably this is what happens. They get their cousin, they get some internet. Yahoo doesn't know what they're doing. Who won't spend. The time is like non-responsive, like when you reach out to them via email or call. They were good on the initial call, but afterwards they never returned their call and they disappear on you. You get frustrated and they turn something in that you think that's it. That's what I paid you to do. And that's what happens. So I want to try and save you some heartache. And if we can skip that process, we can get going today and you won't lose the three months. And then you say, how does that sound? So that was really rough, but you understand what I'm saying, right? You just tell them how it's happened in the past that tells you that you're. That tells them you're confident you've done this before and you're telling them about a mistake that's going to happen. It's like if you get married to that person while you're drunk in Las Vegas, you're going to end up with an annulment in four months and you're going to be embarrassed that you even did this. OK you used to want to do. Go ahead. You just laid out just like that. OK all right. OK, everybody else raised lowered the hands. Richie, go ahead. There's your question. It wasn't about the objection call, it was about something you said about the videographers and CEO. Yes, go ahead. In that case, if you're trying to sell SEO through video with the videographer, then be doing that or would I just be outsourcing that to like another company? Oh Yeah. Let me explain how this works. If you call your video the words that they want to be known for and the video answers that problem. And you put in the description and you fill it with rich metadata, and actually, if you can, you transcribe the entire video and you dump it all into the description and you give that to them to make a blog post the link to the video on YouTube. It will rank really fast. Try it for yourself and see what happens. Find three words that you want to test this theory on it. Just do it for yourself. It's actually better if you do it for yourself. So you can say, look, I did this in two weeks is what I got. Right go in incognito mode, search for your words. Screen capture what you see with the date. Go make a video on that, make sure it's a really good video that answers those three questions or those three words and see what happens. In two days, your video will pop up to the top. And if it has a description, it will show that in the search result, it's crazy now. It's bananas, because, you know, YouTube and Google are the same company. People forget that sometimes. OK And then create a blog post using those exact same words, do everything I told you to do and see what happens Follow all best practices and then rip. 5 to seven images from your video and embed them inside the blog post and label every image with those three words and more. With a dash in between, so it's like hot dog camp, let's just say those are your three words for whatever reason. That doesn't make any sense. Hot Dog Dash camp dash the city that you're in dash Richie films. OK dash zero one. And these label them all that. You're teaching Google, this is what this is. Don't call untitled dash final dash for. That's final final. Don't call it that. Got it, OK, and that's all that you have to do for the CEO. There's no other building links or additional stuff. Now there's more, but just try that first. See what happens? I bet you that's 10 times more than what you already do now. Totally that's what I'm wondering if asking if the client would be like, well, what are you going to do to rank on a ceo? This is a good place to start. Yeah, just do that for yourself. See what happens? Awesome I've tested this theory before. That's why I know I could speak about it so confidently. I told my team, I want to be known for these three words. We looked it up 6 months later. We're a top 10 search result. Actually, if you search it again, we're like number three, number seven, number nine, like not just once on the top 10. I try to make it really easy to find us. Like I even typed in the other day, generically pro group, we're like number seven, I want us to be number one, like not even future, just pro group. Yeah try typing in the word style scapes type in whatever you think you want to find me for, it's there. That's why I'm usually upset at people. I get really cranky there, Chris. How do I go from solopreneur to like a business owner? I'm like, did you even type that in? Let me just have it in right. It's open for business. It's like all our videos are there. You'd rather just ask me than just type it into Google, you crazy or lazy? OK all right. Do we get to do role play? There's just more it's like unending. Emily, it's like whack-a-mole. Yeah, I don't know. Do you want do you want all or just have a role play instead? I mean more. OK, one more question. Then we're going to go to role-play because I have this idea. I want to do this idea and I want you to practice. I need you to get the repetitions in. Watching me do it will not help you. OK, so next up is hooking. Yeah, sorry, Chris. Be respectful of the time here, I have two questions in regards to the first role play with China. Yeah, I noticed that you just gave a price anchor without giving a range. I'm wondering about why you decided to do that question to. What was the first giveaway of the main giveaway that Sharia was a bargain hunter? Yes number one, I didn't feel necessary to do the bracketing because I just knew she was going to choke on this number. I just already knew because when she told me how much she charged, and then I added, like, I doubled what she charged and I added $2000. On top of that. Then I already knew that they were going to freak out. When I say this, how do I know she's going to be a bargain hunter? She told me in the role play. Don't forget, you did tell us she was going to be a bargain hunter, and we identify that I need to know what kind of client that she deals with. So I already know and modeling my conversation around that type of client. I I'll put it out there just generically speaking. Almost every one of your clients are bargain hunters. Every single one of them, because when your position at the top now we're like, OK, let's see how much money I can get from you. It's a different game, so I can't be teaching you those techniques because you're not positioned there. When you are, we'll have a call. There'll be four people on that call because like, I have a bigger problem, Chris, how much more money can I get from them? Like, OK, let me teach you how. Generally speaking? OK, go ahead. Are we really sure that's all people here have? Yes this was pretty confident. Now what we can do is we can open up anybody. We can ask people, with the exception of you, how many people have this issue where the clients like out an open checkbook and they're ready to go big? I'll talk to you right now. Raise your hand. Come on, guys, some brand strategists in there. OK, OK, hold on, hold on. Is it gamal? Yeah, that's right. OK, well, what's the budget range that you usually work at? Oh, so were you asking if we've already worked with big budgets, that the question? I may have missed the first part. Yes the question is, how many of you guys work with really big budget clients and need to make even more money from them? I can help you. Oh my, my bad. I missed that. Sorry. OK. And who else raising cuyler? Did you raise your hand? I did, but I misheard the question as well. OK, I'm being a bad communicator this morning. OK, thank you. Thank you. Well, first of all, I love that you guys raise your hand. Can you specify what big budget is like the most I've ever charged? The client is like, I think, 18 grand for a couple pair of glasses I designed. I'm an industrial designer. OK, that sounds like a really good price for industrial design. That sounds good. I loved it. It was great. Yeah, I'm trying to live that life. Always beautiful. I wish that you lived that life always too. So yeah, I guess it's all relative for me to, OK, it is going to sound terrible for me. It's big budget when it's North of $200,000 North of 300. Yeah, but OK, it's a middle way here. I'm talking about someone who maybe can charge like 10k, for example, like we're talking about budgets on 500,000 and you say 200000, it's a little bit of difference. Yeah, 5K, 10K. I think people are on really quick story here. Thank you, Anna Lee for always challenging. I love it. OK, I just want to let you guys know, I've gone through this entire range of budgets up to over a million for a single client. OK it was. It was wonderful this time. Oh my God was so good. OK, it didn't last, but I've gone from a couple dollars to several thousand to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands, to a million and everything in between. Each time you move from one bracket to the next, and depending on the industry in the vertical that you're in, it's a whole new game. So what I have to do is understand, like for gamel, like sub North of 20, North of 50. Like, if you're like Karim Rashid, you're going to get paid 100 grand for a project, right? Gamal Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. If you're like Felipe start, you're going to get paid hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to do something. He probably has equity. If you're Eve's bear, are you going? Same thing, right? So what we? That's your standard right there. I'm curious. You know what? What is it by her? That's right. Yeah, Yeah. How much does that guy charge? Do you know? I don't honestly know. OK, I'm going to give you a little homework. Can you look it up because it's available? I think most. And how is, as I say? And how would you find something like that? Um, I just started searching. You'll see I've seen it myself because there's interviews with him. I think these days they don't take on projects anymore unless they have equity stake in the companies like if you look at that, that lock company, the smart lock, OK, you know what I'm talking about? No, no. OK, so I don't know why I know more about this is it's called. I think it's called August. Just like August the month, and it's a lock that you open with your phone. You know, these smart homes with the locks so you can give temporary access to it. His company designed this and I think he has an equity stake in August. I think I also know a little bit about him because he speaks at Art Center a lot and I'm an Arts Center teacher in Harlem, right? So I want you to look into the superstars in the industrial design world and start to study them. I want you to build like you're a forensics person, like you're searching for the serial killer. It's just they're just killing a lot of money, right? That's what you study them, see their arc, see how their positions, see how they talk about things. So what I suspect that Eve's did many, many years ago was to take on some low end start up and negotiate himself for equity and do an amazing job. Because once you start that door, once you open that door, then you can say moving forward is all I do. Right I want a piece of this. You're going to pay me five or 10 k, but I want 4% of sales. I want whatever. It'll change your life. OK OK. Understood yeah, so I want you to research him and anybody else that is a superstar like Felipe Starck would be another good one. And let's throw in Karim Rashid, three industrial designers that are superstars. And there are other ones out there that have like deals with furniture companies where they put their name on it and then they get a piece of that too. So the other way to do it is guys like that are doing like the watch bands in Chicago this case? Yeah so once you get into superstar status, then you start doing deals like that where you lend your name to things. Listen Yeah. Now, if you want as part of an office hour, maybe I can find an industrial designer. I know quite a few of them. Yeah, no, the book, yeah, because a lot of the work people are talking about here, these are things I don't even know about, like video, like selling videos. I'm like, I do a lot of 3D modeling that, you know what I mean? So so I'm trying to bridge the gap of it to understand how it applies to either how I'm thinking about something incorrectly or just. A real quick question is if do people have a budget client or like a value seeking client? I have a lot of clients that really seem to only understand the hourly rate thing like it's like they don't even understand. I'm talking about when it comes to value based pricing. Yeah, and I've definitely lost people as a result of that. And they're like, we just want you to model the stuff, man. Like, we don't want you to think about how many of these we're making and how much that is actually worth to us and that kind of thing. Yeah, you're not a modeling, though. You're designing, they're reducing what you're doing into just the hands on work. Well, if you want to show me the model, the design it can model for you, actually, you just probably send it out to a kid. You don't need me for that, you're overpaying me. Mm-hmm I'll talk to you about pricing later, ok? OK just let's make a note of this. Let's keep this conversation alive on the circle platform, and then I can help you with pricing, for sure. OK the pricing conversation. All right, beautiful. Thanks and thank you, Amy. OK I think we need to role play. Here's what we're going to do. OK, so bob, I'll get back to you later, so just remind me, OK, bob, I'm going to lower your hand. OK, I'll just write it down, Bob. OK, here's what we're going to do. It's going to get a little bit uncomfortable. And watch everybody leave right now. I anticipate some of that's happening. We're going to do one on ones. OK, so the first thing I want to do is I want everybody who's really just tired of dealing with an objection that they keep getting. A pushed back. I want you to raise your hand. Because you're going to play the role of the client. OK, I want everybody to raise your hand. Just keep raising your hands. OK, I'm going to open while you're doing that. I'm trying to get half of you to raise your hand because I want you to play the client. Raise your hand digitally. Go to the reactions and go and click Raise Hand. OK, at the bottom of the screen. Bottom right. And I'm going to create rooms right now. I'm going to try to create how many rooms are you creating just for two people in a room? Yes look at everybody leaving. No, I just. Oh my God. OK good evening. Yeah, OK. I just see a few people that couldn't be in it. Maybe they're leaving because they couldn't be in it. OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to create 25 rooms. It's starting to shrink here, and I'm going to allow you to choose the room. OK, watch what we do. I'm going to create 25 rooms. Create, OK, open all rooms. Can we just say something before we start? Yeah, go ahead, Chris. I have instructions. This is really a safe place and we're just doing it to people in a room so you don't have to be afraid. You don't have to leave. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's, you know, it's not recorded. No one will see you after. Right? so it's just practice in the rooms you don't have. I don't even see. I'll stay here, I promise. Yeah, Chris is not watching. You don't even have to perform, you know, do it in front of others. This is just practicing. So it's good to be in a room. Just two people. I just want to say that let's try this, ok? You guys need to remember this. I'm going to go. I've never done this before. I woke up this morning and I just had this weird dream and I'm like, just how I'm going to run the call today. I'm going to try it. OK, so everybody that's got your raise hand, just leave it there. Don't anybody change it now? OK, because you're a mess us up. So I've created 25 rooms. There's 54 of us in here. OK so bob, you're going to go to room one. Elizabeth room two, David three, Ritchie four pick five. Sherry six. Ewan seven. Dustin eight. Andres nine, lance, 10. Sabrina, 11. Che sha1 Che on. Shall we on what number am I, 12 and 12? OK, Louise, 13, Mohammed, 14, Mohammed four, faraz, 14, hulking, 15, and Ali, stay here. No, no, no. What? no, no, no. Ali, you go to room 16. OK, OK, OK, Aisha. 17 I know you didn't volunteer Alex Martinez, 18. Amy Lynn, 19. You're all doing the objections, ok? Yeah hunch night Knight Ahmad 19 now. Yes 19, Angie. Ari, 20, Asia, 21. Ashwin, 20, two. Barack, 23 carry 20 four, Chelsea, 25. You guys go to the room, you're going to be the person raising the objections, ok? And when you're doing your objections, I just want you to be very mindful of how you feel based on what the other person says. I just want you to focus on the feeling. So as you're in the dialogue, just write down some notes. How you're feeling when they are gone. I'm going to tell the rest of you what to do. Well, once they're all gone. Just hang out there. I know it's going to be lonely for a few minutes and then I will. I will instruct some people to join. Yeah, and Washington is not going to join. So you can remove him. Who, washington? He's working out, OK. You can't go in. No OK, so until everybody's gone, I've lost my place here. So everybody go. Those people go. Everybody stay here. I'm going to teach you how to do this, ok? I was supposed to go. Why don't I get a room? I'll give you six 16. No, it doesn't show up. You can choose any room. OK, everybody else was able to do it. OK I cannot enter the room. Sorry oh, maybe I click on room 11 and then nothing happens. OK, maybe I can come. Everybody else is doing it. You should be able to just pick a room and go to it. Now, families laugh, she did it. OK, everybody else, I want to teach you how to do this, ok? Here's the I know how to do it. I know how to do it. You need to go to the right side and then just participate. There you go. Oh, there, ok? OK, good. Everybody else. Do you see it? Goodbye OK, everybody leaves. Sorry, you need to leave because I need to teach them something. I am supposed to be in a room. Madam care. I don't know where to go. Like, I'm confused. Ok? do you guys see the breakout rooms? No Yes. Yes and then you find that room number and then to the right of it, you say, join. You hover if you hover over a room 16. You can just sit, join. Well, where do you see the rooms? I see them. There's a button at the bottom. It's the breakout rooms. It looks like four squares. Click on that, it'll open up another window called breakout rooms. Yeah, this is the first class. At the bottom, no. No OK, I'll just assign you what room where you supposed to be in six. Six sorry, they're assigned to. OK, who else needs to be assigned me, alex? OK one at a time, Alex, let me find you. Sorry, this part. It's painful. Work, how come I can't find you? Alex, Alex, Alex, where are you? There you are. OK, what are we supposed to be in? 18 OK. And then who, who's next me? 25 Yeah, OK. Where are you? There you are. 25 OK, there you go. OK oh, I signed the wrong person. Yikes there's two Chelsea's. Now, did I sign you, chelsea? No, she's not. OK, here's what I'm going to do everybody else. OK, I want you to go in the room. You're going to have no idea. And you're going to tell them what we're going to do. Ok? you say, Chris told us, what is your objection? So they're going to say your price is too high. I want you to practice trying any and all the six, six, six. I just want you to ask a ton of questions. I want you to be open. We don't even know what we're selling yet. We just want to practice dealing with the objection. So you want to be emotionally very neutral. I just want to. You just keep asking questions. So if they ask you, like if your price, your price is too high, they'll say that's their objection. What are you going to say back to them? What are you going to say back to them? It is high. OK, and then you have to follow up with a question. Oh, OK. What was the Oh sorry. Go ahead? Go ahead. Whoever was the jack? Yeah just said, why do you think it's high? Don't go with the why question the why is your last question? Remember, that's the most dangerous question to have. OK, well, what? What price exactly? Yeah what were you looking to spend? What's the sweet spot for you? Tell me more about what you're trying to do. What did you spend previously? Right now, you guys get the game. OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm just going to assign you now. OK, so this will go faster. So, Josh, I'm going to sign you to room one. Washington can't participate cruisy room three. Some people are more and more rooms, Asha, aren't you supposed to be in a room? I'm asking, you know, OK, don't worry about it, I'm going to pay you before you tell them what we just said, tell me your objection and you're just going to ask a bunch of questions and I want you to write down some of their response. Remember, take notes. OK, here we go. Partial I'm sending you to room five. Rachel from six, Katie. Room seven. Mahi eight. And then when you're done, come back, OK, I forgot to tell him, Ma, he can't participate, ship it in the chat that she can't. OK, OK, then they'll go there and room nine. George room 10. Don't go into the room, obviously, Jamal, you're still here. Yes, I see you. OK, I'm asking you to room 11. Richard I'm doing this as fast as I can. Room 12. Rahul, can you participate? Yes, you can write from 13. Ivy 14. Jack, I'll give you a hard one, jack, I'm going to send you to room one, I have no idea why there's only one person, oop. OK, somebody is asking me for help. Yikes Washington can't do this, Roy 15. Kik let me stay here. I feel like I'm not prepared. Yes, you can stay here, Kyler room 20 to Jamie. Tony oh, I'm sorry, I messed up. Gaylor, erm, 25. There's some, some rooms that have too many people. And some rooms only have. OK, there we go. Send you to room three. OK how come I have a bunch? OK how come you guys don't you guys don't have rooms, huh? OK, I can create more rooms. Hey, Chris, we can't jump in just for no, that's OK. Yeah, that's OK. So I sign you to a room, right, jamie? 22 22. OK how come I have people here that I can't assign? Sunny, I don't see you. What? yeah, I have AI don't know. I have joined breakout room and I can choose wherever, but I don't have room to go to a number. OK and I can't for some reason, see your. Your name in the assigned list here. OK, somebody needs some help. Give me two seconds here. Why don't we do this? Sana, you've done the role of the person who's got the objection. Can somebody play with Sana here? Somebody do the dance. OK, Josh Una Sana go. I'm going to join a room. I'll come back. Ok? someone's asking me for help. OK, OK. So so Josh is going to have an objection. And then Sana, your thing is just to ask lots of questions. Have an open and generous mindset to be curious. OK, OK, I'll stop the recording so that your privacy is protected here to let me hit pause. OK thank you for trying this out with me. It's the first time I've done an open room and for the most part, I think it worked like I put people in rooms. There was some confusion. We'll do a better job and everybody was like, I don't want to join rooms. OK, now just a really quick feedback. Was that enough time for you guys to play and see what happened? Yes, he he's an odds because I joined a room late and we finished the whole session, that's how I knew that, I think we were good, right? Yeah, we had plenty of time. And do you have any initial feedback about how that worked? We had a great time. I don't know who is kelly? Me and Kelly, we had a great time. Beautiful awesome. OK and so if we like that, why don't you guys type in like if you like that in the chat? I will try to do that more. OK, next time, what we can do is you can I'll just choose your own rooms. But it would have been a total chaotic thing. And next time we're going to switch, we're going to make sure the person is doing the objections is now going to become the vendor, not the client. OK and I want to do a similar thing where I want to teach the people I'm going to give them a couple of tricks and then send you in the room and apply those things right away. OK, and after some time, I won't have to like, give you any tricks. You just know what to do. OK, good. So if you come into these conversations with curiosity and that you're really neutral and you're not trying to sell anybody anything and you give yourself the rule for a really long time, all I can do is ask questions as many questions as possible and no, no, no advice, no pitching, no selling and see what happens. You guys are going to get really good at this. We're going to do this at least one more time in two weeks and we're going to do it again and again. And then we're see how you guys do OK. And then I want you to report back to me during and after the call what things you would do differently. In your real life and then report back the kind of results that you're going to get. If you trust me. And I hope you guys trust me. You're going to feel more confident, more comfortable, and you're going to be able to close more often. Those are your three C's. Right be comfortable, confident to close. Consistently, there's your forces. That's it. It's a mindset shift, it's learning to speak whatever it is that you're feeling and learning to ask really smart questions to navigate what's going on. OK All right. Awesome OK. There were a question here about loved it, but would like more context before. So my question on that is, do you want to live more? We were also a little bit confused, but do you want to leave more context before next time? Or do you want a show after? So we really get, you know, get it. Are you asking me are you asking? Yeah, I'm asking you. Chris, what more context would you want before like? Yeah, we were a little bit confused, like, OK, because you send us to rooms and then was like, OK, so we figured it out. What we had to do. But so either leave a little bit more context before or show after like, OK, this was actually the way I wanted you to do it. Yeah, OK. Well, one person has the objection. And I didn't want you to know what that objection was. It could be our price. It could be about schedule. It could be about scope. And so I wanted to throw you in totally disoriented. So that was the first part. So everybody that left, they had their objection. Did the people who had an objection where they confused as to having an objection? Yeah, clearly didn't have one, but I figured that was the case, that we made something up. OK, so Kelly, I sent you in the room with an objection. And you didn't know you didn't know because you're supposed to have the objection, by the way. But I was in the room first. I didn't get any objection. Now you're the one who has the objection. Remember? OK. All right, we'll work on the answer, ok? I don't want to waste more time talking about. We'll figure it out because remember I said everybody who has a client objection, raise your hand. And then I sent you all into a room and said, you guys have the objection and then you're supposed to have an objection like, you're too cheap. OK, we figured it out. OK, yeah, OK. And then Kelly was supposed to like, deal with you. Like, Oh my God. And I want it to be a little bit of a surprise because, you know, truth be told, you never know what the clients are going to say out of their mouth hole. You never know. I figured it out. OK OK. OK all right. All right. So let's get back into this and then you guys can continue to give me feedback on circle. And let's keep the discussion going, either something you learned, something that you were confused by and we'll keep it. Yeah OK, now Sana has a question. And I just do a little bit more and then I have to run. OK, so Sana, go ahead, ask your question. Can you hear me? Yes OK, so my question was with Josh. He was I was in a situation where I'm selling something I don't really offer, but it made me wonder if a client is asking for a stepping stone. Projects such as an audit or like a look over or maybe a consultation that is not part of the project that I'm offering. So he was saying for k for a video project, he asked if he could do an audit. How would you technically price that? Here's the thing I was going into it when not knowing what I was actually offering, but I do offer things. But what if a client is asking for something like a stepping stone? How do you price that? We're unmute. Here's the intention behind this exercise. I didn't even want you to know what you were selling. As he so this is the big mind f that I'm doing on you guys, right? Normally you're like, I sell identities, I sell video, I sell websites when you walk into the room and the person starts saying, well, you're too expensive, I want you to focus all of your energy on why they think it's expensive. Not that I have anything to sell. That's the first thing. So sign up. Part of the confusion is built into the exercise. When I woke up with my fever dream this morning, this is what I was thinking. I want you not to even know what to sell, who the client is. I want you to learn about them. So when a client says, you're too expensive, it's like, OK, so what are we trying to get done? And then you get into it and he said, well, I need a video that does this. OK, so why do you think a video does that or what is the video going to accomplish for you? Oh, I need more sales. Ok? are there other ways that you've tried in the past? So I just want you to focus all of your energy on the other person. Nothing about what it is that you do. OK, Emily, do you want to say something? Yes, because pricing was also something you said that you will handle in an upcoming call. So maybe we can save that question. But I saw that Bob was actually having a question before we started this and we forgot about him. Yes, yes, Yes. But we haven't sign it yet. Yes, we'll get to Bob. Yes, thank you. Thank you for the reminder. So Sony's question is, how do we do this? What's the term you use on a stepping stone, stepping stone type of thing? Yes OK, I want you to learn this, this phrase. Everybody, I want you to write this down. It's called a phased engagement. I want you to up your business vocabulary. It's Blair ends term. Phased engagement and engagement has many phases, so we're going to do just one phase. And so it sounds like you're not ready to commit to the full engagement right now. How about a proposed we do a phased engagement, including like a brand audit or whatever it is that you want to do? OK a competitive analysis, we could just start doing this strategic discovery session first. Right, fantastic. So and then you just pull out a random number. It doesn't matter if the total projects 4k, you don't want it to be so little that it diminishes the rest of the work, especially because if it's the brain work that you're doing, I would put more emphasis on this. So for me, when I talk to clients at scale, these numbers so that they work for you, I'll tell them to do discovery with us. It's anywhere between 30 to 70 k, maybe even more. And this is not me doing any work for you, except for to find out your positioning, your users, the user journey mapping. That's what we do. So when we're done, it could be more than a quarter of a million dollars, are you OK spending the 30 to 50k up front to do discovery with us? They're great. You get a scope of work document afterwards. Everything will be super clear. That's how we usually do that. So for a project that's a 4,000 video project, I would put somewhere, maybe $1,315. I want a good chunk of the money up front. Because I'm not going get out of bed for 300 bucks, forget about it. OK and here's the cool. Go ahead. The objection was he was paying for 1,000 so somewhere, but I think I could charge 1,000 for charging and it would be reasonable to him. I'm just like, not sure based on what you said, if you do 1,200 to 1,500. Yes, absolutely. Per video that makes sense, but it's still equating. I couldn't make it out in my head for the client. Well, I'm not sure I understand the question. Can you ask it one more time? Sure so he was charging. He was saying it was a 4,000 video project. He was used to paying 1,000 per video. I said 4,000 include strategy. He was like, I like that. But can we do something like an audit where you look at my videos for like 15 minutes? And I said, I can't do it for free. And he says, OK, well, can you do an audit? And I was like, well, how do I price an audit? He says, you know, it's kind of was OK. This is really interesting. So when he says I'm used to paying 1,000 I don't want you to automatically say anything else. I just want to ask, like, how that 1,000 video go? Why didn't it work? What worked it? I just want you to get into the habit of asking more and more questions. Yes I feel like because. And I may. I may be misreading this because I'm now starting to panic on time here. Is that going back and thinking, well, OK, well, what can we do? Like, I don't want to talk about me. I want to talk about them. The entire time because they will convince themselves it didn't work in the past. Plus, you get insider information. You get an unfair competitive advantage by learning about how it didn't work before. You know, what you do is you use what you've learned back in the language when you're speaking to them, right? So they'll tell you three things the last time, like with I forget who we were doing this with. They said, let me see where my notes. So on a piece of paper? OK they had said that all the videos were old school. It didn't feel modern. It wasn't up to date. And then I said, OK, so expanding on that? Was it the color, the lighting, the styling editing? And they said, no, I think it was the messaging. And then I learned it was a talking head. Video that was the problem. I knew then the talking head videos, they're boring men, it's hard to make a talking head video interesting. They're automatically going to feel out of date. So see, like, I don't go back to what I want. I'm just trying to find and keep digging and digging, it took a while to get this out, but say I was talking head videos like, OK, so we need to do something that's not a talking head. Video probably. And we need to do it with a unified strategy for media bias, and we're targeting the right people. Now, once they figure that out, I've already created value for them in the moment, creating value and insight and clarity builds trust. They're more likely going to spend money with me now. OK, so my note to all of you. Go ahead, Diana. I'm just taking notes on myself, but yes, I think I did that. And I think maybe I could have done that more when he was asking for an audit or something like that. That's what I'm learning from what you're saying. Yes, I think it's Kevin Daly, the book's Craddock selling, he says something really important that I want you all to take note. We want to. There it is. Is it Kevin Daly or is it what's his name again? Yep, Kevin De La nailed it. It's a horrible book design, actually a very good book. He says that in our desire to close the sale, we want to move to the future not possible to move to the future until you resolve the pass. It's like you're dating someone and you want to get married. But they have issues and we've got to work through the issues first before we can talk about the wedding ceremony like we want to tie the knot. We want to do our nuptials. Don't do that. Revisit the past. Find out where it broke and get a full understanding of where it broke. And then you can start to talk about the future. So I think a lot of us are rushing to the future and we're not moving enough to the past, spend the time in the past. Lance is looking for that chapter right now. I could tell. Oh, you found it, dude. Yeah, OK. Yeah, good man. I don't know why everybody's not holding up their book right now. But there you go. OK OK, now let's get back to Bob Bob you I'm like way over time now, but please ask your question and thank you. Try to help. OK, go ahead. Yeah, I'll be quick. Not really an objection. So if what happens in my experience is someone would say the price is OK, but I really need to check with my finance. And another one that I have heard is I don't decide today. I normally would need to take 24 hours to decide. I need to sleep over it. Yeah, but I would say, let me, let me address both of those. OK let me just do this one at a time, ok? First one is let's do the one where I need to sleep on it. OK, here's what I would say. Are you ready? Say it to me. Yeah, I think I really need to sleep anomaly I need to sleep on this for at least a day before I decide. Yeah bob, I want to make sure you sleep really well tonight. Like, you know, getting restless sleep, it's not good for anybody. Is there anything else that you're concerned about that would prevent you from moving forward? Yeah, that's good. No, no, hey, what I'm saying about this, you don't break character, Mel male is like, OK, is there anything else that would hold you back from moving forward with us? I have to check with my team, have to see if they can do this together. I see. And if your team were in this room right now, what would they say? Um, they probably say, OK, they'll probably be good to they'll check the schedule and probably say, OK, OK. And if you had like one very cautious team member and they're like, this is not going to work, what would they say? Um, they would say maybe we are too swamped with client work at the moment. And we'll need to look at this maybe in three months. OK, so you have too much work right now. Yeah, that's such a thing as a business owner, you telling me you have too much work and you don't want any more work. Yeah, sometimes it does happen, does it? Yeah maybe you need help with scaling. now, because, you know, a couple of years ago when business was so crazy, one of the biggest business mistakes I made was I assumed it would last for a really long time. Do you how long it lasted for months and the market crashed? so I sit back and I think I should have done more to do as much as I could in those four months because nothing lasts forever. I see. What am I supposed to do now? I don't know. Yeah, you can do whatever the client would do right now. I'm making it purposely uncomfortable for you. OK yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll let you know tomorrow. OK and if you should wake up in the middle of the night with a fever dream about this. Send me a message, will you? OK Yeah. Hello OK, Thanks very much, Bob. And that's it. That's all we would do. Does I answer your question, bob? Yeah the exact line I'm wearing, it's like, I don't want to keep you awake at night. What's stopping you from doing this? Like, oh, what's hindering you from doing this? Yeah what would prevent you from moving forward with me? OK OK. All right. Something like that. Yeah, see, like, I try to be really playful with my clients, whatever they say, I just use. They talk about clay pigeons, I'll talk about clay pigeons if they talk about rag dolls or their cat, I'll talk about their cat, but I'll make it work back into this. OK. Because when somebody says, I need to think it's a polite no. You need to know that whenever somebody says, I need to think I'll get back to you to politely saying no. And that means there's an unspoken objection that has yet to be surfaced by you. You will lose this job if you don't figure it out now. Mm-hmm everybody needs to know that, OK, they're not really thinking about it, they're just saying like, I want to tell you no right now. You need to interpret that as a no, it's a soft no, but it's a know nevertheless. And if you can save it, now would be the time not in the proposal. Think about it every time somebody knocks on the door, wants to sell you something like something you don't want. Yeah, yeah, let me talk to my wife. Let me think about it. Not right now. Maybe in three months. Those are all ways to say no because there want to be polite. Yeah, ask yourself this question. How many times if somebody said, I need to think about it and I had to come back and approve the budget? Percentage wise, and you'll see it's quite low. Yeah, Kyler knows. And think about how many times you've said to someone, I need to think about it or I need to talk to my team. And what did you really mean? You meant to say no? But you don't want to do that. Let me get back to you. You know, a guy was trying to sell me solar panels. Let me talk to my wife. No, I meant no. All right, bob, any follow up. Otherwise, we're going to end this call. What about the question on finance? I need to check my finance. Yeah, what are they going to say? I already did that. I say, your finance person is in the room. What would they say or are there concerns? So this is someone referring to the ghost. Ok? this is a term they're referring to. The ghost was the ghost. Someone's not in the room. I only have two ways to solve this, either get that person in the room right now or in a future date, or we ask them to speak for the ghost. Like, it's like, let's have a say on it's like, oh, ghost in the room. What would you say? Like, oh, there's too much money? OK, well, if we were to talk back to the ghost, how can we make the ghosts feel at ease so they don't come haunting through the halls? Right? we would just talk to the ghosts. The ghost is what people use to speak about. An opinion they have that they're too scared to tell you. And so the way that you do this is you summon the ghost and it allows them to speak about one of their fears and concerns without feeling like they're actually saying it. OK that's like the wife, the husband, the finance director, because, you know, like you're in charge, right? You're the CEO, you're the company owner, if you want to do this, you will do this. So like, yeah, I'm not sure accounting would approve this. I'm like, well, in my mind, I'm thinking, who the hell is in charge counting? Are you? I mean, do you see value in this so. So that tells me there's a budget problem. I want to address that. That's great, Chris, thanks, Thanks so much. You're welcome. My whole purpose of doing this is to help you guys close more, work more consistently with greater confidence and to be more comfortable talking about money. I hope I helped you a little bit. Here's the trick. You have to be able to do this if you don't do this, nothing will change. As the expression goes, if nothing changes, nothing changes. Now there's a mental trick, there's two mental tricks that I want to just quickly tell you, I've told you guys before trip number one is pretend like you don't need it or want this job. Trip number two. Pretend you're selling for someone else other than you, someone you care about, someone you don't want to let down because they believe in you so much. I was in New York, I was talking to Mo, and I was like, dude, I can't, I can't charge that much. I said, OK. So to your partner. Your business partner to your employees, to your investors. You're not going to do what you need to do. Because what don't say, I like that like, well, that's what it is. I said, would you go to war for your business partner? He goes, Yeah. Nothing would do. Well, your business partner has a mortgage, has payments, has financial obligations. You go negotiate for that person. And then I was like, Oh my god, that's a big unlock for me. Yeah because it's all egocentric, it's just about you, and then you realize there's more at stake here if you don't win. Who's counting on you? Right you have a lot of people in your life that are counting on you. So sell for them, be confident for them. Be the person you need to be. So the people who are counting on you, the people who believe in you, live up to their expectations, live up to their belief. You'll be fine. Two mental tricks, try them out. OK, I'm going to stop the.