Overcoming Objections Pt.1

Pool, a clubhouse. I need you to ping to people that should have direct contact with and get them in here because we're always talking about sales and closing and like Chris, is about to give us the juice on objection handling, which is one of the most difficult things in sales. So go ahead and DM to France. Three France for France. Very good. The Zoom calls are starting to turn into clubhouse calls, and that's Mo. And he's done. OK, let me share my screen. There's not much to share today because I want to do more exercises with you today, ok? And I just want to officially kick it off today is called number. We're going to do objection handling. I want to teach you two principles of the Socratic six. That's part of my objection handling course and part of the business boot camp, but two principles to help you master empathy and to reduce friction during sales. OK and so I want to introduce these two concepts, and we'll dive into it deeper. We're going to do a breakout room and where to get. We're going to get all into this, ok? And the thing the first one I want to teach you is called the Raging Bull. And sometimes clients come at us. I really do mean at us like a bull. Full of emotion and a lot of it's negative. Very rarely do clients like, I'm so happy to talk to you. I've got so much money to pay you. This is incredible. I'm ready to start today. Usually it's the opposite, which is like, why should I be talking to you? What a waste of time. Why are you so expensive, so they're coming at us with a lot of negative emotion. And what we try to do is we retreat and we get slammed. The more you run away at it from it, the more the bull chases after you. So what you want to do is you just want to identify the emotion that's going on. Chris Voss refers to this is called labeling, labeling the emotion. So if somebody is coming at you really angry, just pause and be a human being first and say. Is everything ok? Um, did I say something to upset you? And then they have to take. Accounts of their own energy right then and there. The bull stops and the bull says, why am I coming at you? Really hard and heavy? I just. I just picked up the phone. Is there something going on that happen is now a bad time? Do we need to reschedule? Because I want to talk to you in a state in which you're ready to talk about things. So it's easy enough for me to reschedule. So that's what you're doing, you're trying to tune into their energy and you'll notice both the techniques I'm going to share with you today is going to be focused on listening to the other person. The reason why you may see me Excel at these role plays, because in that moment, I'm nothing, I'm air, I'm not even there, I'm just trying to understand the other person. And in doing so, I'm able to bring them in and build rapport with them. And hopefully get them to see me in a way that we can have a productive and constructive conversation. That's really what that's about. OK and we'll explain more in a second. OK I don't want to be too kinoti here. There's only a couple of slides. And number two is the double down technique. And the double down is like when you have a hand in Las Vegas and you think this is it. I'm just going to put more chips in. I'm a double down. That's what you're going to do. So it's simply, I'm just going to agree with you. I don't want to fight with you. If you say this price is high, I'm going to agree with you. If you say this price is really low, I'm going to agree with you. If you say, I don't need to do this, I'm going to agree with you. And by doing that, I align myself with a client I'm no longer facing them like face to face. I'm standing side by side. We're looking at the same problem together, and that's what both these techniques do. I try to see it from the client's point of view. And that makes the whole conversation much, much easier. So when I remove myself from the equation. It's a lot easier for me to connect. And if you've watched that episode with our friend Wesley little on the YouTube channel, she said that in therapy people come to her who have had issues or challenges with trust. Their trust has been broken. And so the first thing they're thinking is, can I trust you, wesley? Or can I trust you as a therapist? Do you have my best interests at heart? So she said that her whole objective is just try to acknowledge and to understand. So the Raging Bull is I acknowledge what's going on with you right now. Tell me more about that. And if somebody is coming at you saying, you know, you're stupid, it's like, OK, maybe I'm a poor fit, I'm not going to say I'm stupid. I'm not going to agree with that, but I'm like, oh, OK, where is this coming from? Why are we talking then? Let's have a conversation about it. So here's what we're going to do. Um, the first way that you're going to handle sales and objection is you need a different mindset, you do need a different mindset. I've seen sales professionals and analyst can back me up here. Sales pros literally people who train other people to sell on Clubhouse doing role plays. Oh, terrible. Yeah, they're terrible. They're like, Oh my God. Well, you know what I'm talking about, right? Bad, bad, bad. What makes them so bad, mo? They're they're to me, they're selfish, and it can come across in their tone and inflection and language, it's about closing versus about caring and trying to give the client the best solution, whether it's them or someone else. OK you said a lot there. Slow down, slow down. Let's unpack. It's my coffee. Drink some water, Mo. OK, so you're saying they're selfish? Do we trust people that are selfish? Now, do we want to give people that are selfish our business? Or are we looking for the exit? I mean, some of these calls are cringe. I have to say, if you've listened to some of these sales role play rooms, Oh my god, they're so cringe. Either people practicing or people teaching both are super cringy, and it's no wonder creative people hate cells because if that's example what good sales is, I don't want any part of that. I don't. OK, so let's talk about number one tone. What's their tone like, Mo, when they're talking? The tone that I think everybody in this room hates, which is a little aggro, bro, aggro roae, I mean, which is it sounds a little high sprung, so I don't use terminology that people don't understand. It's a hair too fast. Um, and there's this. Almost superiority complex in their tone. When they speak like almost like, I'm the shit you need to buy from me, you'd be losing out if you don't, and that to me is such a turnoff. So those are the three that stand out in my mind right now. OK, let's get into that. Usually, their tone is very aggressive. And it's condescending. The you're a loser, and I'm going to help you. Only if you're smart enough to pay me all your money, it's usually and they don't literally say that, obviously, I mean, some do, but. It's really coming from that place of superiority. Like, you want this, don't be a fool, you need to buy this now. And so that's the aggressive part, the Brody thing is like this thing that we describe, I guess, to these alpha male types. When they're just flexing on you the whole time. And they'll be so quick to spin off in a story that is totally it cannot be proved. Before they even listen to you like, I don't want to hear your story, you don't even know me. What are you telling me about a story that I don't even I can't verify if it exists or not? So I just want you to keep this in mind. And the other thing that they do is they have a very clear hidden agenda, it's really funny. It's like it's not so hidden, it's so clear that no matter what you say, it's like you need a timeshare. You just need it. You need the under coding for your car. You need a new vacuum cleaner. It doesn't really matter what you say. All roads lead back to them selling you something. Now, if we remember from the previous call on how to do sales, there are three outcomes, right? One is to hire you. One is to hire someone else. And the third is to do nothing. Why is it when you talk to salespeople, the only option is option number one only hire me. I mean, not doing anything is a valid option, because sometimes people are just calling to get informed. That's all. They just need some information to make a decision. OK, so your mindset has to be the opposite of selfish. So let's figure that out. So if everybody can just do me a favor here, let's use the chat to as part of our learning thing here, ok? Think about a tone of voice that you think is effective. At building rapport. Can you just write that in the chat? What do you mean by that? Describe a tone of voice. That is effective for building rapport. Describe it. So people are writing in. I think they're getting it. OK yeah, here we go. Mm-hmm OK, so what said, Bob Ross. Well, Bob Ross is excellent, that's the best tone of voice. You could have answered with. Do you guys know who Bob Ross is? No he's a painting instructor on PBS. He has a giant Afro. He's a white man, and he just talks about painting happy clouds. Yes you know, there's no such thing as mistakes. That's how he talks. What's that was that, lexi, shiny, happy trees, shiny, happy trees, tiny, tiny, tiny, happy trees. He's wonderful, by the way, if you ever watch one of his painting things, and he has so many instructional painting videos to paint landscapes. It makes it feel like you could do anything. And you could be Mr Rogers if you want the word. We're going to all like public television now. Very calm, friendly, happy to see you. Welcomes you in as a friend. That's a tone. Yes, Bob Ross is dead, and so is. What is it, Mr. Mr Mr rogers? Rogers, I was Mr Robbins, Mr Rogers. Yeah, both of them are fortunately passed away. OK so what do we know? We know that people that are in a rush. They speak fast. We don't want to be in a rush, so we need to speak slowly. Sorry, guys, I'm going to be right back two sons killing me. Yes, so you want to speak slowly. You want to be calm. I'm not in a rush. I want to hear you. I want to understand. I want to see you. Those all very important things, because when we do role play, we're doing role play. Yes, we are. As panic sets in. Look at Italy, I know people are going to leave the room. People are leaving the room in about five minutes. I could feel it. Look at John John starting to sweat. I could see you. I see you. We're going to do it. OK, I'm going. I'm going to make it a little bit easier for you. OK so we want to speak slowly, we want to have this mindset like, how can I serve you? I need to help you figure out one of these three options, whether you should hire me, hire someone else or do nothing at all. I'm going to help you. That's your mindset, I want to help you. Be of service, so the mindset has to be right, and the mindset is communicated through either tone of voice. The other thing that you can do is you can smile a lot when you speak, even if you're not happy, just smile. It's those mirror neurons, people feel it. Like, you might not smile back at someone on the outside, but you'll smile back on the inside. It's really weird how this works, just like when somebody cries and you start to cry immediately, even if she doesn't want to. She's just going to do it. It's natural. It's what happens is what connects us as human beings. It is right. Yeah, she's saying Yes. Mm-hmm OK yes, you've seen it. You know, I have. Well, Yes and no, I mean, you turned away, so I couldn't see it. Yeah OK. So if you're happy, they're happy. And if you're upset, if you're nervous, and you're tense, they're going to be nervous, anxious and they're going to be tense. So you don't want to do that. So your mindset has to go into this very differently. I want you to slow it down. OK, so you guys remembered the two things, right? The raging bull, which is like, there's an emotion going on. I need to talk about it and make sure you're OK before we proceed. We have to make sure you're OK in the present. And the second thing is, I just want you to agree with people. So when they throw an objection objection at you, you'll see how powerful this is. You'll see it's surprising. It's surprising how effective it is. And it gives you space to think, to both of them. So you're not so put on the spot. OK, so those are the only two things I want you to think about. So what I want to do is I want to break this room up into, I'm thinking to two groups, OK, we're going to try this. It's kind of crazy. I've never done this before. I'm going to break this group into two breakout rooms. I'm going to join one of them at random. And the one that I join, I'm going to teach you kind of how to respond to the objection. The one that I don't join. I want you to talk about the most frustrating objections that you hear from your clients. What kind of crappy things do they say to you? This one should be fun now, Chandler, I'm hoping will be in one of those two rooms that I'm not in because he's the sales professional and there's another person in here, I don't know if he's on the call. Is he on the call today? Chandler no, he's not. OK, so Chandler's a salesperson, that's what he does for a living. So he probably knows some advanced techniques as well. So, OK, so we're going to split the room into two. I'm going to actually join one of them. We're going to just do this for five minutes. So if I'm not in your room, just give it a beat. If I'm not in your room, you're the objection group. OK, you're in the objection group, so that means you're going to tell each other like what your worst, most horrific things that clients say out of their mouth whole. And then you're going to write down your top 3 as a group. OK, and we're going to come back, we're going to talk about this. OK, you guys ready? I stay ready. Born, ready. OK and I was like, dang, right, ready. OK, here we go there. Thank you. The thumbs are up. There we go. Here we go. Sign automatically to rooms. Remember, if I'm not in your room, you're the objection room that gave me your top three most horrific things the client say to you. OK opening all the rooms. OK, I'm going to join room one. Big money, big money, big money, big money, big money. I don't know, I can't join a room. Oh, no. do you guys need help in joining a room? Are you just not able to join because of circumstances? Oh, OK, that's not too bad. No, that's a nice one. That's too bad. Let's go to the next harder one. That one's almost too easy. Mm-hmm OK the next is. Can you guarantee the result? Oh, yeah, that came from last week's call. OK, so this is what we can do. That's a good one. Can you guarantee? The results. Beautiful OK. Just because I'm mindful of time and everything I want to start with. Can you guarantee the results? Ok? I think last week, whoever brought that up, can you raise your hand so I can see you? I want you to play that role if you've heard this many times before. I want you to raise your hand because I need you to play the client. Ok? ammad, did you or you the one person who brought it up last week? Or is it you? Yeah Yeah. OK OK, so you're going to get to play that role, OK, you're going to be the client. Ok? and I'm going to pull the Tom Tom, you're going to play the role of. You're just going to sell about something. What do you normally do? What do you make? I'm the vendor, right? Yeah, you're the vendor. You're just playing yourself. Yeah, OK, I'm just playing myself. Yeah, so what do you normally make, what do you do? As someone tells me, if someone asked me, what do you do in real life, like you build websites, you make animations, what do you do? Oh no, I create content for marketing agencies, which is like video and stuff. OK you create video content. Yeah and it's more expensive than normal videos because we're shooting with cinema cameras and. OK, so you high a love this stuff. Yeah you create high and cinematic content. OK all right. And you're one of our younger people, so I love that you're volunteering, so this is awesome. So we're going to enter into roleplay mode in the role. Play is going to be pretty straightforward. The only person who's playing something is Ahmad because he's going to play the client. OK, Ahmad, just so so that Tom doesn't go into this totally blind. What's what's the temperature? Are you going to be super crazy, aggro or are you going to be medium? Or are you just going to be more normal? No, I just will like recall one of the calls I had, which was pretty normal, it's a newcomer. OK, so the Tom doesn't get slaughtered here, ok? OK, so the whole point of this is Tom is going to talk to you about some creative service, right? Just briefly. And you're going to respond with that objection. And then we're going to see how Tom reacts to that. And we'll just watch and everybody just have a listen and then we'll take some notes. OK, so let's try to keep this under five minutes. So if it starts to drag, I'll give you a prompt. Like, pick it up or we're done. OK, so Tom, kick it off. Are we jumping right away? Like to the point where he asked me, which guarantees I can make? Or do we stop them from the sun? You just tell them, like some service, that you're going to do. So we have a little kind of warm up here and then he'll respond. But is he approaching me or is it me who approached him wanting to say something? You're on the phone together? What's that, ammad? Well, I can be approaching him. Why don't you start? Just start over. OK, cool. Yeah hey, man, you saw way. Go ahead. So thank you for having me. I have this e-commerce fashion store and I've been taking beautiful pictures. But nowadays I've been seeing that videos are performing really well for some of my competitors, so I wanted to approach you and see what you can do for us. Hey, Alan, nice that you reach out. Thanks for that. So you need a video that converts better because the video is not working right for you right now. So exactly, I'm not doing videos at the moment. Oh, and you want to do videos? Yeah OK. Want to jump on that trend, you know? OK yeah, I see. So that's why you want to do videos because you want to jump on the trend. Yeah, basically. OK if they're performing well for other competitors. OK you see, it's competing. It's working better for other competitors. So you think this is your go to option right now, right? Yeah OK. Um, Yeah. So what kind of video do you need? What do you expect from the outcome? So basically, I'm looking for a video that shows our products more vividly and engages customers. So that they convert better and buy from our website and return back. Et cetera OK. So you basically want to increase like the relationship to the clients? Yeah, basically, I want to increase the relationship. So what's the rough figure of? How much would that cost? And would cost like around K. Thank for how many videos. One video one with you. Well, yeah, it's like it's like a video you can split that video up and use it on several use cases. That's what we offer to do, like a little bit of a strategy up front to make sure that the video works everywhere. If you need that. But that's where we would start, because right now. I don't even know what exactly you need. I got to get a little bit more of an insight. So let's say it's a 5 minute video that is 4 typekit, correct? Yeah all right, and based on your experience, based on your experience with e-commerce client, what's the conversion rate for that? I have to admit I'm not I'm not only working with e-commerce clients, and it's not my main thing to do. So you should know that. And you just asked me for the guarantees that go on. Yeah I just want to know, like the average conversion percentage for such videos, so I can expect somehow of results because based on my experience with dealing with like graphic designers and digital marketers, I've paid a lot of money, but I haven't seen the return on ad spend. So I just want to make sure when I get into another gig or another relationship with someone that I have a KPI is ready and we can put it in the contract. So that we hold ourselves accountable for financially and work wise, for such guarantees. I see. So it looks to me like the video is very important for you to bring out these numbers, these KPIs that are important to you. Definitely that's basically what I am doing. So what exactly are these? Let me just note that, Tom. What are what are the caveats that you want to hit with the video? What does it say to you? More sales, Miss Martha. I want to call pause for just a half a second here. OK hey, Tom, I noticed your tone of voice is exactly how you always talk. Are you practicing your tone of voice right now? I'm just curious. Following up. OK, so why don't we try that remember, we're trying to be like the I don't know how people are interpreting it, but the way I interpret is you're talking a little fast and in a very staccato, little bursty kind of things. And if I were to imagine, like you as an animal, I'd imagine you as a chihuahua right now. You know, chihuahua. Let's go for a walk. You know, he's kind of like that very friendly. But it's like, you know, you need to calm down a little boy. You know, the chihuahua. It's like, OK, so I want you to be like, like a Saint Bernard. Led out of MDG, yeah, I need you to slow down, you're just slow down, you're just tone to slow down your roll. And then I want you to enter back into this, OK, because I'm just noticing that and some of us that are listening to you, some people are saying, you sound confident. Some people are saying, I feel a little nervous and anxious, just listening to Tom. Yeah, I should look at the chat doing this. No, no, you can't, you can't promise you, can't you? Because I actually to get the. You're not looking shadow. It'll mess you up. Do not turn off the chat. Hide the chat. Ok? I just need you to slow it down. If you have different speeds, now is the time to shift it in that slow speed and slow down. OK, all right. Continue on. OK so what can the ice do you need to put that video, what metrics do matter to you? So ultimately, I want convergence, but of course I want. I wanted to create a buzz. Shared videos are pretty valuable because I think ultimately I need a video that creates a buzz around the community and around my target audience where they interact with it, share it with their friends and ultimately create more convergence. OK they talk about I think the main challenge is to create a buzz around your community, right? It's amazing that you said that and also you want this video to be shared like to go viral. Is that what you want to achieve with that? Yeah, I want people to share it. Going viral is a long shot, but I want people to feel the urge to share. I see. So how are you going to? How are we going to do this? So, yeah, as I told you, I would, I've seen your work before, and I really want to work with you, but I just need some kind of numbers to get to my partners and tell them that we're going to be investing this amount and probably we're going to get this amount back. OK so you asked me for an average conversion rate that I can guarantee you that. Is that true? OK, let's say the minimum conversion rate you can have assuming we spent $30,000 to advertise for this with you. OK, so I see you want to advertise for that video as well, like after we made the video. OK, that sounds good to me. Let me ask you one question, ok? What would be a conversion rate that you could work with? So good question. So I'm not really sure that's why I ask you in the beginning what based on your experience, what would be the conversion rate for such videos? However, I would want between 10% and 20% Between 10% and 20% Yeah OK. Is that like in your industry, is that a high or a low conversion rate? Like what is like you say you want to focus on that. That's a pretty high conversion. OK but when I say when I'm talking about conversion rate, I mean people who watch the video and then they click, so I want to be able to measure everyone. All right. Go ahead, Chris. OK I'm a timeout here. I'm a timeout here. There's a couple of things that Tom is doing. First of all, Tom, your adjustment in real time. Fantastic people are like, wow, just using, you know, just. Just simply they just slowing down has created a whole other feeling in the room. Because if I had to guess you just age like five years in maturity, you really I mean, you went from the chihuahua. Maybe you're not the Saint Bernard yet, but you just graduated from Chihuahua. OK, I'm going to give you, I don't know, your next big dog. Like, you're like Lassie. You know you're getting up there. We just want you to be a big, slow, lumbering dog. That's what we want. The hyperactive one. So wonderful. There you've I'm going to point this out. I'm doing this to help you learn, ok? I notice a couple of things when Ahmad said something, you didn't fully listen to what it is he was saying, and you introduce new vocabulary. And he had to correct you. That's a sign that tells me clearly as a client, you are not listening to me. OK, I'll tell you two instances that were very clear in the very beginning as we're starting, Ahmaud was saying something about other people making videos and now he's interested in it. And so you automatically assume also you're doing videos, you just want them to be better. And he's like, no, I'm not doing videos. He had to correct you. That's a sign that we're not totally dialing in. So what I would do is I would just ask more questions. I want to understand what the heck Ahmad is saying. The second thing I noticed that you did when this happened was you're like, so you want to make a viral video? Now you've already gone beyond what the heck you wanted, and now you're going to dig yourself into a hole. Like if you know how to make viral videos. Tom, you and I need to talk because I'll pay you money to make viral videos. Very few people, aside from Mr. beast or pewdiepie, can make viral videos. They're not easy to do. And so he was like, oh, no viruses like too far again. If I were asking him, I don't need to ask him, but he would feel like it's Tom really listening to me. OK, so I'm going to pull you out from the role-play. First of all, awesome job. Congratulations right, right. Congratulations there we go. Now I need to get to the part. So I'm going to I'm going to do this again. I'm going to do this with the mod. We're going to take it from the top. OK, so ammad, you and I, we're just going to do this again. I would like for you to start it as close as possible to the exact same way you did before. OK and as I'm doing this, I may pause, break character and explain to you what's going on and then reenter. Normally, I don't do that because I want you to learn, excuse me, I want you to learn from this. OK, everyone. We're going to do that and feel free to wave or do something to get my attention. If I'm doing something that you don't understand. OK, everyone and the parts where I'm explaining I'm I don't react to that, obviously I'm talking to them, not to you. OK, let's start again. OK, go ahead. All right. Hey, Chris. So thank you for having me. I have an e-commerce fashion store and I really want to push it through video content. So far, I've been doing all photo photoshoots, and many of my competitors are leveraging videos and repeatedly I've seen it might have been working for them, so I want to try it out. OK, well, thank you for taking the time to talk to me. I'm excited about your business. So you do you do fashion? Like what kind of fashion work do you do? So basically, women fashion dresses. Online store. OK is this like a high end market middle end or are we talking fast fashion? No, it's middle land, it's not too high, so it's middle. And what's the average price of a dress that you sell? It's around $400. Wow Yeah. OK, I need to update my catalog of women's fashion for 100 middle end, huh? That sounds pretty good. OK. And is your business doing well right now? Yeah, it's doing one, but basically I'm getting more dresses and more stock, so I want to push more for currently in the UAE and I want to push for the Gulf region in general. OK oh, so it sounds like you want to expand your market? Yeah OK. And you said you have you're increasing your product line as well. Yeah OK. Excellent do by how much you plan to expand the product line? 30% OK, very good. I love this so far. OK, now getting back to your original inquiry here, you said that some of your competitors are starting to use video and you're only using stills right now, right? Yeah OK. And do you have any evidence that the videos are working for them? So my only evidence is that they've been since they started making videos, they have been repeatedly doing so. And my assumption is whenever something is working, they do it again. And that is a good indication that it's worked, ok? I think that's a pretty logical. It's not always true, but it's pretty logical. When we see something repeated, it must be working for them. Now, since we have no data to verify whether or not these things are effectively moving more products or expanding their reach, are you willing to take that same kind of risk Gamble yourself? Um, so, yeah, definitely, of course, I want to test new ideas, that's why I want to make a video. OK and in the hopes that videos will increase my conversion rate and increase my sales 10% OK I'm just going to play along with you here because I just want to know how much of a commitment do you want to make in terms of running videos and running a video campaign? Like, do you want to do this once or do you want to do this over a period of time? So basically, I want to start by doing it once, and if it works, I want to repeatedly do it, do it. OK and what will make it work for you? An increase in sales, basically an increase in sales and by how much? 10% And if you can increase sales by 10 percent, what would that mean to you in your business? Like how much revenue are we talking about? So that's around $50,000 extra a month. OK so it wouldn't make more sense to if you increase 50 k, so you basically if you can spend anything less than 50k, you're out ahead, right? Oh, my God. Anything like the cost to acquire a customer, if it's less than 50k, then you're going to make money and if you spend more than 50k, you're going to lose money. Is that right? Yeah, definitely, if I spend more than 50. Well, OK, so what number would you feel comfortable spending to increase your revenue by 50 k? So I'm looking forward to invest in this around 5,000. OK OK. Because I have the advertising budget that I'm going to use to push any piece of content that we're going to get, right? So you sound like a pretty savvy media person. So there's a budget to produce the content and there's a budget to promote that content, right? You're factoring that in. Is that right? Well, that's correct. How much money will you plan to spend to boost this? Around $10,000. OK so you're going to spend 5K to produce the video and 10K to boost it, right? Yep. OK. All right. Do you have any of the questions for me? No other than how much do you think it would cost and. How much do you think it will grow? My sense? Yeah, I don't know, and since this is the first time you're doing this, it's going to take some time to find your audience. I think we need to have a more comprehensive marketing strategy besides making a video and seeing what works. And let me explain what I mean. I can make you something for 5K. I don't know if it's going to work for you. I really honestly don't. But in the past, I think it works better, especially in the beginning, for you to try lots of different ideas and put a little bit money behind that and see which videos work and then adjust in real time. That means that if you were to work with me, we have to make a lot of videos. And that wouldn't be super high quality, but we're just trying a bunch of different ideas to see which ones get the best click through rate, which I like the sound of that. How much do you think such a thing would cost? You know, off the top of my head, I'm going to say it's probably going to be anywhere just for me to do the production work, probably around $15,000 to do it for the first month. But in that time, we'll try a bunch of different ideas with you to see what works. So $15,000 for a month to try different kinds of videos and then know what kind of videos work better for my brand. Mm-hmm That's right. By the end of this month, we do have an analysis report. I guarantee or something like that. I would not give you an analysis report at the end of the month, I would be doing it with you on a weekly basis. OK, I think you need to know, I think we need to know together. All right. Yeah, I think that sounds good, so after a month when everything is clear, do you think after that, we can have a longer commitment where we're having more of clear guidelines on what would be the results, the guarantees and the conversion rates, etc., etc.? Yeah any long term commitment, we will be entirely up to you if the results aren't good. I would recommend not continuing unless you're committed to a long term strategy to see if this will work. I think you mentioned that your competitors are doing this multiple months, and so it takes time to find an audience. don't want to lie to you. I don't want to overpromise anything. So at the end of this, if we see a marginal increase and you're willing to continue it, I'm willing to do the work with you. If you see phenomenal results, will the answer will be self-evident, right? You get to decide. Yeah, that works, I think. That first month was be critical to me figuring out what works with me and moving forward later. OK well, fantastic. I have one more question for you. I'm sure you have a lot of people you need to talk to. Is there anything else I can do to give you the information you need to decide one way or the other? If I'm the I'm a good fit for you, Ahmad. So apart from that, I would need kind of exactly how many ideas are we can attest? Yes makes sense. What would be the commitment in terms of meetings and. That's about it. OK so I can go away and I can write that up real quick, I can put together a one page deal memo to outline what I'm thinking in terms of the approach. I think that's very fair that you ask that. And then if I send that to you, will you be able to make a decision? Yep OK, great. I hear this young gun. His name is Tom, and you might be talking to him as well. I just I'm just kidding about the part. OK, let's just stop right there. So that's Chris. That's exactly what I did when I had that client. I told them that we're going to test it for first three months, and then I'll be able to make to answer your question about the guarantee. So, yeah, but you never asked me for the guarantee, though. That's the thing you went when you talked about the testing and the first month. You'll have to test ideas because you really don't. You can't answer the question. It doesn't make sense. It really doesn't make sense. The question itself doesn't make sense because you're new. You don't know my business. I don't know my video business. I have never tested with you before to ask you for a guarantee. So it's yeah, you sold me on something else. What I'm looking for. But yeah, that's OK. I want to hit pause. Ok? Ahmaud was. Not totally happy with me last week. He's like, Chris, you need to answer this question. I'm like, oh, wait. That's an objection thing, I promise you I'll deal with us next week. And did, first of all, ammad, are you OK with the way I handled it now? Yeah, it's great. OK well. Something happens here. I swear to you, this happens all the time because you guys that are watching this? I do. Why is he so nice to you? Why did he just agree to everything? This is so b.s., and I'm going to be an evil client with Chris, and we will do the dance and then other people will say the same thing about you. You're like, why weren't you evil to him? Why weren't you nasty? Well, it's not. I don't think it was about me being evil or nasty. It was about you challenging my beliefs and whatever I said. You said something that makes more sense. So basically about that shut me up, basically in a way, I think. OK, all right. Let's let's have a conversation about this. So we can do this in orderly fashion. Everyone, just raise your hand that wants to ask a question or comment, an observation or anything like that, and I'll be happy to explain. So I think the hand, that's Lexi male and then Sana. OK, Yeah. So I just I think you kind of did give him like you answered the guarantee question by saying that we'll go through an analysis every week. Right I mean, he can. I mean, that's what I don't know. It sounded like that's how you addressed it, which then sounded good up front, but then I was like, Oh god, wait. Every week we're going to have to sit down and do an analysis on one of these things. But maybe my question is kind of like, is that kind of just a way to ease into the conversation? And then you figure out whether you actually put that analysis thing in your quote or your proposal, but at least it got him over the hump. You know, that's how I'm positioning it. All right, lexi, so let me answer a couple of things here. OK, this is a good thing that you bring up. I happen to know a little bit about how marketing campaigns are run. I also am a person who embraces like making sure that what I do actually matters and moves the needle. So when I, when something has is measurable as an ad campaign, it click through rates. I also want to know. Many years ago, I ran a simple Facebook ad campaign. I learned a lot just by running a campaign myself and you run six or so ads in a day, and the ones that don't perform, you just kill them instantly. And I have to do that if I'm a responsible marketer. And sharing those results with the clients actually involves them in the process and doesn't scare me at all. So I have to know a little bit about marketing. And advertising what the heck it is that I'm doing to even have this kind of conversation, the wherewithal to bring this up. So if you're a person who does video production and you never run a campaign before and you enter into a conversation with amad, you won't even know to bring this up. You'll be talking about the cameras that you're going to use and how cool the editing is going to be. And they could care less. So, lexi, to me. So, yeah, because I feel like with digital content, I think that's an easy win because you do have numbers that you can have, it's quantitative or whatever, but with brand strategy or design, like someone's asking me to do a sales sheet or we're talking about doing brand strategy. And it's like, well, first of all, that's a loftier thing. People don't quite understand all that goes into it. Then it's like, well, how can you guarantee that I'm going to hit the market? And wow, everybody with my yeah, Yeah. So I would counter with you that brand strategy is literally what I'm doing and look can argue with me because I want to help the clients go from where they're at to where they want to be and use the entire arsenal of my, my design thinking, my brain, my creativity to help them figure that out. So we'll circle back to that. Perhaps you're talking about identity design, which is like touch, feel, look and that kind of stuff and tone. And it's some harder to measure. Not impossible, Lexi. So I will answer that objection with you if we have time. Time permitting, OK. That OK, Lexi. Yeah, sure. OK, thank you, super. So male, what's your question or comment? Oh hey, go ahead, Mo. Can I cut the line real quick just to put something on your mind? I think I know you say people say that the client was too soft. I do think the way Ahmed got on the call was very different than how he got on the call with Tom. Just going to put that out there. So I'd like you to revisit that. I'm going to revisit right now. Tom was high energy and that was high energy. Tom was not totally listening to it. Tom was not asking him questions about his business, and so I focused focus entirely the entire call. All my questions were all about what Ahmed wanted. All of it. You know, you're saying no. No, I don't disagree with you on how you performed. I disagree with Ahmed. The first thing out of his mouth with you is like, Chris, thank you so much for taking this call. He said at the time, he said the exact same thing to Tom. He was almost verbatim to the opening. Oh, come back at me. It was the tone man, the tone. You're wrong, dude. No, no, no wrong. He's a character actor. You don't. You don't know he's gone. Full method here. We'll play back the tape. You'll see we can. I think the inflection was like, I'm speaking to Chris Delaware. Shut the front door. I'm telling you. No but anyway, look at we got. We got hands. OK, hell on our hands. Come care. No, I understand that the way you talk and the tone you get in the conversation, you bring the person back to where you want it to be. So independently, if it's Christo or anything, I think I already got that. I learned that you have to bring to where you want it to be, right, the energy and all that. So I get that. So maybe that's why he was so. Yes yes, Yes. Yes to him and I and I learned that a tip for the sales, right? You get them to say Yes. However, what if he hasn't said? Because when you ask for the budget very smartly, I don't know if that's an adverb, but a nice way, you said. And he said, oh, I can. I want to spend $5,000. And then you came back saying that will stop $5,000. You will maybe get to the result. That's just a start point. And then he agreed with it, which was all the budget he had, right? He only had five. And so I was a little tricky about that. It was like, what if he didn't say, wait for $5000, you only. It's just a start. What if he was a client on that? You know more on that. Yes, please, please. OK, you guys are definitely going to want to write down whatever you thought of the call, and I want you to listen back later on when this call is posted to see if your observations were correct or not, including Moe and male. Now I'm going to point something out, and I'll bet you'll correct me if I'm wrong here. I asked them about what kind of results you wanted because I only care about the results that he cares about. My clients, if they want to, like sound like super high energy and have a new logo, then if that's what they care about and they're really sure about it, then that's what I care about. He wanted to increase his sales by 10% I asked him, what would that mean in terms of additional revenue for you? And this was the trap. The trap, as I asked him to think about his future and entrepreneurs, they're very optimistic. He's like $50,000. And if he didn't want to tell me. There's other ways I would have done it, but he just went with it. I'm imagining now it's not because I'm Chris. No, because I've made him feel comfortable, like I'm a business person too, and I speak the same language. He's not thinking this is some young kid trying to fish money from me. Right, because I asked them, like, what is where is he positioned in the market middle end? How much does a dress average dress cost? $400 Notice nobody else talks about this kind of stuff. And what do you want to do with this, oh, you want to expand the market and increase the product line by how much? 30 percent? So he's now getting really comfortable telling me all kinds of things. And I earned it, I earned it one basic question at a time. So at this point, he says 50k. And I said, what would be a reasonable amount of money to spend? And he says 5K. And then he volunteers a new piece of information, which if you weren't really paying attention, you wouldn't even hurt it. He's like, I understand. I also have to have an ad budget. So he was using like phrasing that you might not understand, but that means he was prepared to spend on media by. Paid media not just earned media. So he's now and then I say it to him back. You're a sophisticated person who understands about marketing because he happens to be a sophisticated person, understands what marketing. Most clients aren't that sophisticated. So then he then he's like, I'm going to spend K. Now I know his budget in his mind is 15k. OK, so he's already telling me all kinds of stuff, and then I say, OK, what can we do with that? I said, well, I'll do whatever you want, but we're going to need to test. And as soon as we start talking about that, he feels even more comfortable. And at some point he says, how much would it cost to spend with you, I said, I think 15k for the first month because I know he's willing to spend 10. You can't spend more on a media buy than you can on the art, on the art, that doesn't make sense to me. Go ahead. The wording test is a music to marketers ears. So when he said test and I'm going to, I know I'm going to spend $10,000 to test and maybe fail. So when he said that I'm going to not only give you one video, but I'm going to give you multiple videos and then test with you and analyze what work, what, what's not. So he really reduced my marketing budget. Tremendously from 10,000 to maybe less just to test and understand what's going on. And that's what made me actually, but when I was speaking with Tom, he said 10,000 in the beginning, without us, without us going a lot in numbers. So that shook me in a little way and maybe became a bit more aggressive or I don't know, the chats are so hilarious, you guys. We just want your funny, aggressive objections. First of all, I won't let you go not. And we'll let you know something. Mo is the toughest dance partner I've ever had in any of these role plays ever. He is so trained to go after me. He brings the Middle East to like the whole conversation. I'm like, Oh my god, we're inching into the Warrior. He is the toughest, the toughest nut to crack. And he has to fight himself, too, because oftentimes he'll tell me afterwards, you had me at Yes. And halfway through, I have to just stay in the role. Right? OK, let's just keep going on here. OK, so now what happened there was. We're opening it up to have a business conversation and just write down in your notes, write to a marketer, testing matters. It means that we're not just going to throw a bunch of B's and hope for the best. We need to have a plan and we're going to be accountable accountability. People try to hide me. I embrace it. OK all right. OK, so mel, are we ok? OK, I'm going to move on, and then so now, Sana, go ahead. So I think more of my reason for raising my hand was to stand up for wanting a few more objections or like throwing the vendor off like moments of throwing the vendor off. So any point in time, I think even though Ahmed. How he's feeling these musics to his ears kind of thing, I would have just maybe like to see something weird because to me, like every time I get a client, there's always something really weird about them. Yeah, and it's fine. I like them. But yeah, OK, OK, hold on. I'll play with you. do the dance with you in a second. OK, so let's just get really quick here. Just Joshua, Tom and the Ricardo. And then we're going to go, go and do something a little tougher. Go ahead. OK that's my cue, right? OK so this week I had a call with Ali Cisco. It was not someone I don't know before. It was someone I don't work for previously. And they really liked it. So they are coming back because they know this other service I can offer them, which is to give the website. She talked really fast like she. She unloaded all information on me. So I don't want to ask, like, how do I slow her down without being rude? Because normally I'm like, OK, Josh, I'm sorry, you're giving me too much information right now, and I'm having a hard time taking notes. We just slow down a little bit. Sure my brain doesn't work that fast. Is that ok? It's OK. That's how you do it. I can. Oh, OK. Oh, you see, I just did it. All right. All right. All right. Because I to what? I have to move on. I just did it. You asked the question. I gave you an answer as literally how you're like, Oh my God. Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. My circuits are frying right now. I'm just so sorry. Can we just slow down? See, first, I meet them with their energy. Oh my god, Oh my god, I'm so that's our energy. Then I say, can we just slow it down? So imagine Mira, right, you're coming in real hot and heavy with me right now. Can we just take a breath? Just like that, we transition in. All right, Joshua, hang tight. That's how you do it. We'll talk later. I want to bring a new thing because I got to get to this final because she's not going to be happy with me if I don't. Ok? Tom, quickly go. Yeah first of all, thank you. Thank you, Ahmad, and thank you, Chris, for giving me that feedback as well with the chihuahua example comparing me to dogs. Yeah, and I, I learned something new. First of all, I learned that it's incredibly important to focus on to focus on the client and to get into his brain and not reading Zoom chats or anything else. Yeah and what I also recognize is that when I slowed down and shifted the energy and pump myself down. And that's changing my own mood and making me ask other questions and shifting the energy. I've done speaking. Thank you. Isn't that weird, tom? Isn't that weird? Just by changing your tone of voice, all of a sudden, your whole energy changes and then their energy changes. So there's a couple of things that I want all of you to do at some point. I need you to invest in the acoustics of your call. I'm talking about the microphone, I'm talking about your headphone. I'm talking about the materials that you use in your room. My business coach told me this many, many years ago. He says, you know, I called in to your conference room and you guys sound like you're 30 feet away. You sound like you're in a cave. How am I supposed to connect with you. When you sound physically distant to me? The next day, I called acoustical engineers to come into the room and spent thousands of dollars adding rigid foam, acoustical foam, fabric materials and changing the acoustics in the entire room. And then he called back and he said much better. I cannot feel like I'm connecting to you. If I'm way back here yelling at you the whole time. So you need to get a microphone like, you know, and if you're going to win business, this is not an expense. This is an investment. All of you. You can do it cheaply. Like this one. And I told Emily, I have six microphones, literally, I have six microphones. Because I'm going to make it work. Microphone number three. See, I have a lot of microphones. Whatever I need to do. There's even more mics under the table here. OK, so you need to do this so you can connect to people. And the way I can do it, I can slow my voice down, and this microphone adds a lot of bass. It's naturally going to sound lower. Then my true voice. Wait a minute. OK that's what you got to do. So, yeah, this is the other microphone. You can get this one. This one's a USB one. It's really good to. OK, let's keep going here. So is it Ricardo next? Because I don't want to spend too much time on this question. I'd love to see another objection, mainly with like maybe someone's a little bit tougher, but how you said earlier you kind of knew a little bit of marketing and brand strategy and a couple of things. This is why you were able to kind of meet him where he was at versus Tom, where he was just it's one. Video I can't really guarantee the results K. So how do you? How do you have that guarantee objection when you don't have that design background? I'm thinking for insurance. You learn design, thinking, you learn marketing. I'll teach it to. You need a broad business background, and there's a book. It's called the 101 things I learned in business school, it's a good primer. There's another book. It's called creative strategy in the business of design, written by my friend Douglas Davis, also a pretty good primer. You need to start with something. And that term that you hear, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And if Tom is only carrying around a cinematic video hammer. Then all problems sound like cinematic videos. That's the problem. That makes sense. So I needed to know a little bit about marketing to be able to have that conversation with them, but here's the cool thing. Like I say, you only need to have one smart expert in the room. I'm happy to be the dummy. I'll just keep asking more questions to the person. It's like, oh, so what kind of marketing thing will work for you and what kind of conversion? You know what has to happen or what kind of results do you need? How much money will you spend? What makes sense? You just ask questions. They'll tell you. Within the client is the answer, and I'm going to dig it out, and if they say something that sounds funny to me, I'll just ask another question like when he said, I want to make 50,000 increase revenue and I only want to spend 10% to get there at 5 k. And I to spend double that amount in media by a light bulb went off in my head. I'm like, wait a minute, that sounds a little bit off a little off balance there. It's just that the media buyer that's going to get you or is that too creative? I know it's going to be the creative. Otherwise, spend $1 on the creative and spend 50,000 on the media by. And I know he knows that, too. That's why he acquiesced. So we need to know a little bit about broad business stuff. And so some future calls, we can talk about these concepts. If you remind me and I'll teach you everything that I know and annually will help too, because she has a marketing background. OK yeah, thank you. Can you repeat the two books one more time? Yeah 1,000 Yeah. 101 things I learned in business school. And the other book is called Creative strategy, of course. Thank you. Thank you, Lance. And the creative strategy in the business of design written by Douglas Davis. OK all right. Thanks yeah, Yeah. So I would start with 101 things, a business school, it's a pretty good primer. Very high level, it's just enough to like, OK, I can have a semi decent conversation and the visual MBA is also pretty good, although I've only read like seven pages from it. OK anyways, let's give it to you, if you want to learn more about brand strategy, you must also listen to me and Chris on Sundays. Hey, Emily, I got Johnny cupcakes agree. Oh my God. Surprise announcement OK. OK Yes. OK, so let's go back to Santa. Sana, you want to be a tough client, right? Yes and I don't even want you to tell me the problem yet. I want you to rise. I want you to surprise Mo because I was going to do the dance with you and then I'll do it. Oh, so oh, OK, OK, he's going first. Fine, ok? He's one person. The reason why I want to do this is because he's my Jedi in training. But the other thing is, he said, every time you do it, it just seems natural and it seems easy. But when we see someone else do it, it's like, oh, now there's a good and a better version. Maybe OK, maybe Mo would be the better version today. Oh, you ready? Yes, that setup was funny, I'm going to be the version that makes Chris's version look better. Yes, let's do it. Maybe OK, I know some of you guys have to run. I'm going to have to run in 20 minutes too. So this will be recorded so you can always listen back in on this conversation. OK, go ahead, Mo. So I'm the vendor, correct? Yeah, you're the vendor and Sana. Mo you just sell yourself. I don't want it. Just to be like role playing. You have to imagine different things. Ok? is that ok? Sana that's fine. OK, so you want me to not do a good job selling, you want me to, like, boast about myself and stuff? Oh OK. I want you to sell video content creation because that's. Oh, OK. OK, Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. And then like, what do you normally do? What do you sell? Um, right now I sell consulting and brand strategy, but I'm currently not personally selling the brand strategy, it happens through an agency. OK so I'd be OK. Yeah, I. OK, fine. So it's a little bit different. He's going to sell what he knows how to sell. OK because I don't want to put him at a disadvantage when I play with you. I could sell you consulting a brand strategy. But is that OK, mo? Or do you want to sell the same thing? Whatever is best for the group, I'm happy to do me or do what she wants, so either way. You picked Insana here, so I know that mode is video content creation and I know he does tasty mobile videos. So that's what I know about you. Do you sell videos or do you want him to sell consulting and brand strategy? Oh no, no, no. I I, I'm the consultant. I'm think that I could definitely use more brand strategy or videos, for sure. Let's do brand strategy. Let's just do that. OK, and you're going to play a client, right, Sana and you're going to be hard on him. Yeah, Yeah. Whether you want everybody to pay very careful attention because we're going to test on it because she needs to come at me at the same way, exact same way. Same mentality. OK, so here we go. Go ahead. Kimo, how are you? What's up, family, how are you doing? I'm doing good, it's just really cold outside today. I don't know, but I wanted to have a call with you in a chat with you. So know. Thanks for taking my call. I am really interested in getting some help right now because I think I need to be more out there. And I think I see a lot of other consultants doing exactly what I'm doing, but I think I could do it better, and I just want to know if you can help me out, possibly with showing that the world like I could do better than them. I want to first take a second. You thanked me. I want to thank you for reaching out to me and considering me as a vendor. Oh yeah, OK. Yeah can I ask you just really quickly, how did you find out about me, clubhouse? That's the whole thing. You know, now everybody's like doing deals on clubhouse, so I saw you modding. I think what you're talking about. I just I'm wondering if maybe you could help me out or something like on this call and maybe I can learned something new. Maybe we can do videos. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot to unpack here, and thank you for staying up late with us in these clubhouse rooms. I'm on there with Christo for honestly way too long sometimes, but thank you for being here. You said a few things that I'd love to just dial in on, if possible. Is that OK with you? Sure Yeah. So you said you want to be more out there, consultants out there doing what you're doing and now you're saying things like help you out with video. I just want to get maybe to the root of it. What's really causing you stress right now with what you're needing? I mean, I think it's really causing me stress right now. I just I think the big thing that I really want to be doing is getting my name out there, having more awareness. I think it's called brand awareness. I'm not necessarily sure. But yeah, that's kind of stuff that I want right now. I want more people to know about me. I want more traffic, you know what I'm saying? By the way, I have to step outside. We can keep talking. Yeah, totally. Whatever is most comfortable for you. So if I may, what are you doing now to get your name out there? If we lose you, your connection is really bad, I couldn't hear you that well. Oh, that's OK. That's OK. Would it be better for you for us to have the call a different time given the movie? No, no, no, no. I think this is a really good time. Yeah, I want to keep moving. OK, cool. Cool, cool. Cool So you said getting your name out there, brand awareness. More people to know about you. Can you just tell me a little bit about what you're already doing? I do consulting mostly I sell sessions by the hour, and then I also sell packages where I basically talk one on one and lead people through. I guess I do, Brandon. So hold on also something else. I lead them through their business strategy. I like give them a new business model and help them scale their system. Beautiful, and I want to get back to that, I think I phrased the question incorrectly the first time. My my concern was what are you doing to get your name out there right now? Right now, I'm currently running a couple of different ads, I just don't think that there may be working that well right now, I don't think that they're I'm running three different ads. I have somebody who is technically an intern doing that. But I think that what I need to do like they wanted to help me out with this, but I think I need some help with actually making sure it. It works really, really well. Do you know what I'm saying, and I'll be honest, I don't know a lot about marketing here, so maybe you can tell me what it is that I need to be doing. Yeah, I'd love to take a breath because I have no idea what you should do. I'm hearing what you are doing right now, which is running ads and you said they're not working and you're running three different ads with an intern managing them, but it doesn't sound like you're happy with the results. Am I right? No, I think it could definitely be better, you know? OK what does better look like for you? it definitely looks like it, you know? A lot more people like you want me to put a number down on this one. If we were to just dream here, let's say you run an ad that works, what is it doing for you? It's getting people to see my services, basically, it's getting them to click and getting them to buy, but I don't know, it's getting traffic right now, but I don't know if people are actually buying. So there's something technically off and I think it's just because I need more. I need to just be more out there. I just don't think like, maybe I need more ads, maybe I need better videos. And the reason why I think like, you know, you might be somebody who can help me is because you do videos really well or how that works. I don't really know how it works. Totally, totally. The thing that I would hate to do, though, is make you a bang or video like we do. And then it does the same thing like these three ads that are not working and you hate me. Would would not suck. Yeah, so what is a banger? Video exactly. Yeah, let's take a breath on that. I think before we even jump into any of this, what would be best for you is for us to take a deep dive on identifying what would work best. And that would probably look like an extended session just like this. But for me to really identify your needs and what to create for those needs versus just assuming that it's video hearing that how do you feel? Uh, Yeah. OK sure. And that sounds fun. When is that going to be? I got a call timeout. So Sonya, thank you for cooking Mo on this. And I just have a quick question for you. Are you being the unpredictable, wild, tough client that you want to play? I was trying to be, but I think that when I tried to step outside because this happened to meet with a client call one time is that they stepped outside and it was almost impossible to hear them. But they could hear me completely fine. And I got them booked later. So it was just like a tough situation. So I just wanted to throw a bunch of really weird things that were happening out there that I have experienced on calls. I see. So you're really method on this one. How did Mo do so far? I think it was good. There was when he kept saying, take a breath. It almost made me feel like I needed to sit down, even though I'm keeping a very high paced because I've had a lot of clients who just talk, talk, talk. So I wanted to keep that high energy in there, so I was surprised he didn't match my energy. But then at the same time, every time he said take a breath. But I almost wondered if I wanted to say, like, are you like my therapist? I almost wanted to throw that out the next time, he said, don't respond. Don't respond. No, sorry. I didn't realize I was on. Thank you. OK keep going. Yeah, those were typically the big things that I notice in terms of the tone. He was very kind. His and he was his tonality was very slow, so it made me naturally want to slow down. It's just that I think I wanted to speed up the call so much to see what I could technically get because I'm so used to moving calls and it almost made me feel like I might waste time. OK, let's do this because I only have 10 minutes left and I want to get through this. OK, now there's a couple of things because the analysis here for Mo for doing this. Excuse me. OK the analysis for Moe is that he's trying to be your friend so hard at the beginning, and I thought it was like a little forward. Like, I know Mo likes to use certain language like banger videos. What's up, fam. Let's take a breath. You know, you're using all these expressions that if you're a different kind of person, that would really throw you off. I don't know. You don't call me, fam, I don't know. You like that. You're ingratiating yourself on top of them. It's just like, no slow down, dude. So Mo does it in a very playful, warm tone, but to a different person, they're going to see this totally differently. That might as well be bro talked to Mo. For some people, do you know what I'm saying? So look at Natalie nodding her head right there, so just be very mindful, like I'm not trying to be your friend. I want to understand what the heck you're doing. And so three times most likely, let's take a breath. I thought he was getting bossy with me if I was. You take a breath. Why am I taking a breath? You're the one who used the word banger. Video and pardon me for asking you what a banger video is. I don't know what that is, so think about that. OK, I know with your young friends, you're gill. Let's take a breath, homies. And that's how you speak. But we're not with your homies right now. We're we're conducting a professional business conversation. So let's be mindful of that. Now If she's come in and flavor flav, hip hop to you. You use all those terms, then that's how you guys connect. I totally get that. But she's not coming in like that. A couple of times there. Another thing that I noticed with you, Mo, is the conversations meandering all over the universe. Yeah like, what's up with you? What's the weather like? You know, it's like, I don't want to know what the weather's like. What's it going to do with anything? So be careful that you don't go on this like Spider web, because what if she just talked about the weather for 10 minutes? Yeah, you would be totally hosed. OK, I know this about Mo. He's done a great job, but he wants to be your friend. He really wants you to like him. And so sometimes he gets caught up in that. So here's what we're going to do. Sana, I'm going to ask you to turn up the sauna like five degrees. I want you to be hotter and heavier because I have the advantage of listening to you do this once already, and I only have seven or eight minutes here before I have to bounce. OK, so let's go through this. So can you pick it up from the top? Yep, got it. Go ahead, Chris. Thanks for taking my call. Yeah, I just have a lot to talk to you about. I think, you know, it would be really great if we could work together. I think you can tell me a lot about how I ought to be doing certain things. So yeah, I don't like I know you do like brand strategy stuff. And I've seen you on Clubhouse and you're teaching a lot of people. So I know, you know, your stuff, but I just think that I don't feel like I need a lot of help right now. Wow hey, I am trying to process. Sorry about that. I'm like walking and talking right now. So sometimes that happens. No need to apologize. It sounds like you have a lot going on right now. Yeah, tons is happening. Traveling, moving. Everything's happening at like right now and my laptop is gone. My dog's like, yeah, just a lot. Are you ok? Oh Yeah. Yeah, everything's fine. Ok? all right. OK, so how can I help you? Yeah, so you are talking about brand strategy, I think, and I think I need some of that, I'm not sure exactly. It looks expensive, but I don't know. But the big thing right now is I need to be more out there and I need more people to know about me. And I just I don't technically know how to do that right now. I have a couple of ads going, yeah, and I just I wonder, maybe like, you can tell me how to do something on this call, like, maybe it could be beneficial for both of us in some way, you know? OK, let me see if I can recap what you just said. My my pen is like, I'm running out of ink, just trying to keep up with you here. Oh man. You said you need brand strategies. All right. I think so. Maybe you can tell me. Yeah so I put a question mark on that. Then you said I'm expensive, but we haven't talked about money yet. I know. And I mean, are you clairvoyant? How do you know? You even talk about money? Wait, I'm clairvoyant. You seem clairvoyant. We haven't talked about much. OK, we're both like X-Men here. That's cool. So I'm expansive, but we don't know that yet. OK and you said you need to know. You need more people to know about you, right? Yeah, definitely. I mean, more sales, more clients, more projects definitely need all of that. OK, but I just want to also be like a thought leader, like you can't necessarily be a consultant these days without really actually showing up and telling people what you think. And, you know, speaking would be cool. Like, these are things that I'm thinking about. I mean, it might as well. You're like a big guy. You know, I might tell you what my dreams are on this call. Hey, Santa, can I ask you for a favor? Sure what's up? Just the pace in which you're talking? It's just it's making me nervous. And anxious, too. I mean, know why. So I don't know, because there's so much energy going on. My head's going to explode. Can I just say, are you? Is this always the way you talk? I'm just curious. No, no, no. I don't know. Maybe I'm not sure. Some people do tell me that I talk really fast sometimes, but not all the time. Definitely when? No, I think maybe it's because I'm also walking around, I typically like to walk around while I talk, it helps me keep the energy up. Yeah, I need to get up and walk around. I feel like I need a match or energy right now. Maybe then we can all bounce off the walls here. I don't know. OK, I'm sitting down. I'm sitting down. OK Doing it for you. I need to take a breath. Hold on. I just want to censor myself. OK are you good? Yeah, I think so, hold on. OK I don't have a ton of time to talk to you, I need to figure out what's going on. Oh, can I get your permission to? Wasn't this a 30 minute call? Yeah I got 30 minutes. For sure. OK so do you mind if I just take the lead and dance on the dance here so I can maybe help you? You know, yeah, I've been talking a lot, so sure. Go ahead. Well, OK. So you need to get more sales to get more clients because you want to do more projects, right? Yes Yeah. In the universe of like all possibilities, what's the one thing you need help with the most right now? I don't know, how do you get me more out there when you consider that marketing awareness, you need a greater awareness, right? Sure, Yeah. No yeah, yeah, I do I definitely need more awareness, because, yes, I mean, if we have to focus on one thing, sure, I think it's awareness. OK, so more than what you need more awareness. So what's the baseline you're working with? Right now, I have about 9,000 subscribers on my YouTube channel, which I post weekly videos on, and I also have 616,000 people on my LinkedIn, but my network is kind of dead too, so it's not really like active. Like what else could I say? I'm on Instagram, but I have like my intern doing it, so I don't even know if it's like the best. How many followers do you have on instagram? I think I have it the last time. 14,000 OK, if we had to pick one of these three YouTube, LinkedIn or Instagram to make a dent in giving you more sales and clients and projects? Which one would you like to focus in on? But hold on. So here's my question to you, Chris, because you are like, you know how to do everything like, why can't we do everything? Oh, we can. It's just a matter of time and money. Would you like to do everything? Yeah I mean, like if it was in, if I could afford it, right? I think, you know, I'm like, first of all, I'm thrilled to take all of your money, but it wouldn't be responsible for me to do so. Right I think it's smart to take measured steps with a plan. Do you agree? Yeah I mean, I think that's sensible. Yeah OK, let me rephrase the question then. How about we rank these in one, two and three? YouTube, LinkedIn and Instagram. OK maybe it would be really great if we could do LinkedIn, I have 16,000 contacts there. I'd love to see if we could get revived or something. I don't know what it would take. I post all the time on. There is just not a lot of not anything comes back. No engagement. Sure and then number two? Is probably YouTube, that would be a good one. OK And then obviously, Instagram would be number three. OK I think I have a plan is starting to hatch in my brain. Oh, you got one? OK well, not yet. It's starting to. And I think what we can do is do a multi-platform strategy that allows you to leverage one piece of content. So you can get the most juice from that lemon, if you know what I mean. I like what I'm hearing. That's good. OK, we're off to a better start, ok? OK, I got to break role play, guys. I'm sorry. It's 959. I have another call. And I just want to do a quick reflection. So Sana, how does that feel so far? It feels good, I feel like you've got me hooked a little bit. I think you're going like a little like one question at a time, and I think the thing is I'm approaching. The thing is I'm approaching you with a positive perception, too. So I'm trying to find any negative perception I can throw to see if I could hear the call off a little bit. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at high energy. And usually when I talk to people and they're not role playing with me, they'll stop. They will totally stop. And you kept going like just like the Terminator. And we appreciate you for that. Like, you're not going to give me an inch on anything, but I can pretty much guarantee you within 5 to 10 minutes, we're going to be having that conversation. I'm going to be do the closing call with you. We're so close to it. I'm kind of bummed I have to leave right now. And if you guys want to continue on, please do so. I just need to leave. OK I would love for you guys to analyze and mow and analyze. Please take over for me. OK, I have to bounce. And just to break down the differences that you saw and I'm going to continue recording, OK. So I want to make Emily the host now. They can only host change hosts and then I'm leaving. OK, guys, continue on. And then stop the recording when you're done. Thank you very much. I will talk to you guys soon. I think I might have to do a quick follow up on this again, so I might do a third call this month. Just stay tuned for that. OK, bye, everyone. Bye bye, Chris. Thank you. You're welcome. My pleasure. You crushed it as a client. I just got to say that sounded so real, it was wild. Yeah, I was like, is it's not, oh, you're playing yourself or are you playing your client because you're so good? I was playing like an amalgamation of my clients. Yeah, I'd love to hear from you for the group, how you felt, what stood out, what you maybe didn't like. And then a comparison to me and then him. So what stood out to you first that you did like? Um, I mean, I didn't necessarily not like you. The thing is that I think what balances may be high energy sometimes that I like a lot of people too. But at the same time, I think if I was sitting down with you, like at the computer, maybe looking at face to face and maybe you use like a couple of different words that I didn't know I might feel excluded. So that was kind of true about what Chris had said. The thing that was weird for me with Chris was when he was just like, let's take a breath and control that. And I was just like, man, can you do that on the call? Like, I wonder, like, I was just like something wrong with him, or that's kind of where I was in the back of my head. I was like, could I do this on a call? Could I just kind of take somebody and be like, let's take a deep breath? But the fact that he said he was having anxiety made me feel bad for him, so I just decided to stop. Does that make sense? Yeah Yeah. What did anything else that he did stand out to you as a client? Um, and he was I think he was interested in what I was saying, but he was really also narrowing down what it is that I was doing. So I couldn't really pinpoint a problem for him. And so what he was doing is he was taking what's the big thing? So it was brand awareness. And he labeled it. And even if my head was going in a completely different direction, he was like, if you can pick one thing, he wasn't making it like a bad thing to do. Look, if you had to pick one thing. So he narrowed it down and then he knew what my issues were, and he said, maybe we can do a multi-level thing. So it hooked me. You know what I'm saying? So there was a way where he kind of came like, maybe we can do this, and that seemed interesting, but then we'd have to have the talk on what that was, what that idea looked like. So, Yeah. Yeah, Emily. Yeah, I just wanted to say like I. I don't know, because I don't know if it's because I'm so often in the client situation, but I'm like, I really don't like when people like, let's take three deep breaths or breathe. I'm like, what? No, no way. Like, like you said, it felt also like I would be like, what? You know, I don't like when people talk to me. To me like that, it's like. And when Sarah also, right? Like, we take three deep breaths together. I'm like, no way, you know, you're going to sell something to me. I'm not going therapy. So I don't know how I felt, too. Are you like, too kind? Because I'm not that kind, as you know, when people sell to me? Yeah, I think no. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, sorry, Mo. I was just going to say no. If the thing. The only reason why I did that. I still had a positive perception of Chris, and I think that he could actually help me. So I don't know if it would turn the other way around if, like, I was an unknown and he just saw me on Behance or something. Yeah, he definitely did it with more poise, so I appreciate you calling me out on it because it is something that I usually do with take a breath. But now hearing that reflection from you and anally, I think the takeaway is if you feel like the engagement, if you want to be like Chris and slow it down, the way to do it is not to tell the client like, Yo, you're being too much and me saying take a deep breath definitely came across that way. So my learning or my thing that I have to get better on is like, how do I slow it down without blaming them that they're being too fast and it could sound something like it could? I could take full responsibility. Like, I promise you, I'm not. I'm not that smart sometimes, and there's a lot happening. And if it's OK for me to just ask one question at a time with your permission. So making it about, which I think he did really well when he was like, I'm anxious. I feel like something is wrong. I need to take a breath. But it still came across like, Yo, you're being too much. But I think taking it upon ourselves was a big takeaway from what I heard. Did I think we lost son or so anyone else in the group hear or see something that stood out to them that you'd want to apply in your own sales interactions that Chris did well? I can. Yeah, I would say for me, it feels like I one thing I have to make sure is I stay in my calm space like I. I should deliberately lock myself in a very calm space, lock my mind in that calm space and never leave it regardless of how the client is behaving, what energy they are bringing in. And no matter what they are saying, like, I have been practicing these things, but it's not like when I started talking. In such a speed, and she started giving out so much information, while I am sometimes comfortable with these clients where I ask them to repeat, but it also makes me anxious, like because she talked like that, my heart started racing even when I wasn't doing anything. And I also knew the ultimate result that know Chris will be able to handle this, even after knowing that my heart started racing. And this happens to me even while watching reality TV shows, so I don't watch them. But that is what my takeaway is. I don't know how to get there. Maybe practicing in rural place or something of that kind, maybe meditating, but I definitely need to work on it. Can I jump on that for my if that's OK? Excuse me, excuse me, my. We have people in line here. Sorry, but you need to raise your hand and arm ladies first. All right, amazing. Thank you. So just I just want to second what Moore said about. So Chris made it upon himself that right. I feel anxious. I want to take a breath so he'd like. She can feel free to keep talking, but I really feel vulnerable right now. Please give me a permission to just take a breath upon myself. It's similar to what Mo said. I'm not feeling very smart today or something like that. Instead of like, can you elaborate it in a better way? It's not very clear saying like, ok? I'm confused. Maybe I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today. Just help me understand things further apology for not getting it for the first time, something like that. It's very humbling. And it makes the powerful client that we all know that want to dominate the conversation, feel more in control and give themselves away. Yeah Emily, do you think can we do a little experiment here? Maya said something super powerful, like how to calm myself down when their energy is making me anxious just by like, raise your hand. If you felt if you feel that way during the client call, like when that happened, you say, well, what did he say? Oh, sorry, did I cut out? No, no. I just didn't understand. Oh, like, raise your digital hand if you resonate with what mahi said, because I think that's a question we need to pass to Chris in the next sales call. Do you get anxious? I didn't hear much mahi mahi. I said, oh, mahi, sorry. Yeah, mahi. Yeah, OK. So, OK, so there's a lot of hands already coming up. So is the Annalee. How do you deal with that? Because I know you. You match people's emotions really well. When you feel like their energy is coming in Super hot, you know, high energy, and maybe you need to process the information better. How have you handled those situations, maybe to help us out? I think I do a little bit more like Chris. Like to be honest, I don't like to, you know, when you say like, yeah, you can always say that I didn't sleep well or, you know, something is wrong with me. I kind of don't like that for myself because I feel like I'm making up excuses for like, excuse me, for existing. And for me, it's a little bit like, I don't want to have that relation with my client. I want them to respect me and to listen. I like when Chris is more like, you know, oh, I think this is getting a little bit too fast for me. You know, I need to process this. I need to take notes, you know, can we just slow down a little bit? That is more for me, showing respect for each other. So I prefer that instead of like, oh, you know, I'm so stupid. Yeah well, I would like to add something to this of what I said, I think I become anxious because when someone gives out a lot of information or is very fast while speaking, I also kind of feel that they are very aggressive and and my mind immediately goes to thinking that they are. The next thing they are going to do is Judge me, ask me for justification for the prices, judge me by my qualification, by my experience or my past clients. And I feel like I don't know what they're going to ask. So I start thinking about those things subconsciously, unknowingly, and I'm not able to focus on, you know, actually handling the sales call. Emily? what I just wrote in the chat, did I did she ask my question, I'm sorry. I think she was reflecting on how she feels when that happens, and she kind of took it to an extreme and I relate to this where they she said they feel aggressive and she then feels like she has to justify what she's doing and her prices and all these kind of things. So I guess my could you, if you have a question, then we can go to Michael because I know her hand is raised. Do you have a question for anyone around that or is that something you just want to see in a role play? No, the question is just that how do stay in the moment and not get very anxious? Oh, I think I don't know, sometimes it's difficult to explain things, I just don't get anxious in conversations like that. I don't know how I do it. I just think it's about like. If you're president and if you're really there to listen to someone and you know what you're doing and you just want to help them. Their emotions don't affect me so much. I get more affected it of like being around people like this in Zoom. But one on one in a conversation, it's much, much easier to just be to not be so emotional affected for me. I don't know how I do it. Maybe I need to find out how to explain that. I just don't. And you know me, my how emotional I am. But it's something around that one-to-one conversation that never gets me feeling anxiety. Yeah personally, I have observed that I have come a long way with the kind of client I work with and the changes that comes along with us when we start working with better clients. It has changed a lot, but sometimes they are not even judging and they may not even judge, but just doesn't always happen. But I may go to that place. So I dread like how what if the client speaks like that? And what if I go to that place. And I'm not able to handle the call so? Oh, and can I add something here really fast and then I think we can move on? I don't know mahi if maybe we're very similar here, but I'm a recovering people pleaser and like Chris said, I want them to be my friend in the call, so I immediately give them a lot of power before the call even starts. And I'm hearing a lot of that same mindset from you where it's like, I want to do right by them. I want to make sure that I don't say something that hurts their feelings. I think someone said that in the chat, and what I'm learning in real time from Chris is like. You are nothing and everything. They are nothing in everything. They have no more power than you. You have no more power than them. So and that's why he's able to be so empathetic and vulnerable, because that's why he says air, right? He doesn't think if he says something, quote unquote stupid, that he's stupid or he doesn't think that if he says something vulnerable, that he's weak. So when he was like, I'm feeling anxious, son was like, oh, he's feeling anxious, let me slow down. And I think one way that you can combat this and I'm trying to do this in real time as well is just say exactly what you're thinking in the moment and label it so. And I and I wrote it better from Annalee because I think annalise, right, we shouldn't self deprecate. But she said, directly ask for them to slow down. And I wrote, I don't know if this is a script, but like, I want to make sure that I deeply understand and process what's needed. With your permission, would it be OK for us to slow down a bit so I can do a better job in serving you? Much, much better like that. So it's like analysts said, there's not respect, we're peers, we are. You are not here. And I am here. And there's also just vulnerability like, I can't process this fast. Can you help me help you? And I think labeling that out loud and going into it, not there above you. And I don't know if that's a Brown Middle Eastern thing because our culture is like, you know, respect authority older. I know that feeling and maybe we just have to dilute that a little bit going into it. And we are the opposite. We saw it in Scandinavia. We can't stand it much. You and I, we're practicing girls play together, right? Different different sides of the different sides of the globe, right? OK I think my was next with a question. I just want to talk to you about what Maggie is talking. So I think the reverse, the first thing to calm you down, to reverse empathy, that's what because it's not empathy towards how the client is feeling, but trying to phrase it like they just did right now. Really nice that you create empathy from the client to you to slow down, to let you understand better. So that will calm you down. And then I don't speak this from experience right now. But what I've learned, which calls with Chris in the clubhouse right now, I think what's causing you anxiety? It's because you need to position just what I've learned. Position yourself that you are. They're calling you for help, right? So we want this thing to put all your chips on the table all in because the client call you and you need to get that client no matter what. So they are everything. And it's just like a father and you're just so scared and you answer all your questions like, that feeling that position, that mindset needs to go away and your mindset needs to do that. You are a professional, you have your expertise. You know what you're doing. You just. So once you come into the call and keep yourself in the call with that mindset, maybe that will reduce the anxiety about trying to answer all right questions in and have because sometimes you don't have it. And you know what I'm saying, I think I'm, you know, like just your mindset. Like, always remember the client. You can have another client next time. He's not the best thing, the only client. So I think that mindset of it's OK if I lose you, I think it's everyone. So we can detach. I think you're right. And I also think it's so important to always be authentic and real and true and not pretending because the reason why I can do it with self confidence is because I know what I'm talking about, you know, I know what I sell. That's why I'm self-confident and I can like, you know, I don't feel anxiety. If you're just starting out selling something, you will feel that anxiety because you really don't know if you know enough. And I think that is so important to not pretend that you know, something that you're not knowing, if you know what I mean, because every time you're being real and like you can, you can say, you know, I'm learning this right now or you don't have to like, so don't pretend to know a lot that you don't. I think that is when we get feeling too much anxiety, like when someone talk to mode and they talked about brand strategy and then they talked about video and I'm like, well, you know, I don't get it. Like, what are they talking about in that case? I wonder to know. I don't know what you think, but like, you think it would be better if you like Claire to clarify it a little bit like, what did you actually offer and not? Or how do you feel about that? Because I was like, you know, I don't know if she knows what she's talking about, but I don't know if he's known. He knows what he's talking about. So they're like two people here don't know what they're talking about. Yeah, I think the role play direction got a little confusing because at the beginning we said, does Mo offer brand strategy or his actual services? And we decided that I would offer brand strategy in the role play. But sunna also spoke on how she knows me, which is video. So things got a little confusing. And I think that's why at the end I was like, I actually have no idea what it is you need from me. Maybe we need a deeper dive on this, but I think that was all just because the role play was set in a direction that wasn't clear what I was offering. So that's a good point. Yeah, Yeah. How do you feel about that? Like being honest about, you know, how much you can offer or what level you're at? Oh, I'm all connected to excited. I can speak for myself. I had AI had a sales call, not a few months back, and I texted Chris in a panic. And I was like, how should I respond to? It was a big fish. And he was like, just respond, honestly. And the guy was like, how big is your team? And he was like, say exactly how big your team is. He was like, what do you do? Like, say exactly what you do. So I had the pressure of showing or coming across more than I am on the call, which unfortunately sometimes will force you to bite off more than you can chew and you're actually shooting yourself in the foot. So I 100% agree with you on anxiety aside from not knowing and the unknown. It's also this pressure to, like, be something you're not. And if they say something that they want to know and you don't know how to answer, I've just leaned into. I don't necessarily know how to answer that right now, but we can make sure to figure that out within the scope of the project. If that's where you want to take it, and I think that's humbling and I may not win the business, but I rather I'd rather not win the business under the assumption that I can do something that I can't. Yeah, I do think having that. If you if you have that mindset and you decide about that, I think it will feel a lot more calmer and self more self-confident. If you go in with that mindset, because then you don't have to pretend you just and being real. And I think that's important because if I talk to you tomorrow and I want your help with videos like I don't know anything like, you know, like I asked you like, what's the difference between real? Some Insta stories, you know, I don't know anything. I can ask super stupid questions. And it's totally OK. But then if you want my help with brand strategy, everything, then I, you know, so it's like it depends on what we buy and sell. And I just think it's very, you know, it's good, to be honest. And also, by the way, when you're an experienced client, you hear right away. I know after a few seconds, if someone is, you know, if they know what they're talking about or not. So you can't fly anyway. This is an excellent point, and I want to just highlight something son has said that is directly tied to what you said and then we can move on to hearken and then Rachel, she said. I came in with a positive impression of Chris already because of how he's positioned himself on Clubhouse. And I think that speaks to what you're saying. And Ali, there's a lot of power in our ability to position ourselves clearly before the call. So when they get on the call, there's already a set expectation in their mind of what we're going to be talking about. So of course, when you DME is like Mo, I need to get better at reals. That's because I've positioned myself as the video person or when I call you annalee, I'm like, I need help from a strategic consulting standpoint because you've positioned yourself that way. So to make a long story short, if the sales conversations feel like they're going all over the place, that is probably a testament to weak positioning on your part. And it's making the conversation more difficult. And this is something that I think all of us can grow into and really dial in that. So when we get on the sales call, someone like Sana could already have a positive impression on what we do, and it makes the resistance easier or less than what it could be if we're just all over the place. So I love that you mentioned that, Annalee. I think it's tied to the tar positioning, too. OK, so haakon and then Rachel. Yeah well, I believe it's OK. I have a question for you in regards to one of the same objections. I know it's a bit off topic of the emotional communication that you had on this topic. It's kind of a new topic, but you said something about as a client, you often has responded on what's your budget with? Why do you want to know my budget? Could you expand a little bit on your perspective from a client perspective on that and how a good response as a creative could be to not be accusatory back at you and respond in like a calm, professional manner? I would like to hear something that is. Yeah, I can talk about that. You know, I often have people say this to me and, you know, I prefer anchor price, but maybe that's just me because when people ask me a lot of questions and then they, you know, and I ask them because I often ask them, how much would this cost? How much will this cost is actually really a sign of, I'm interested if I'm not interested, I never ask about the price. So that's kind of invitation. Right? so then you have the opportunity, and I can just speak from my own experience as a client, not for anyone else, but then I want. Then I could have the anchor price back. That could be really high if you want to. But when people respond back to me instead of saying that, they respond like they start to ask me about how much my budget is, then I feel like, OK, this person is just want, you know, they don't. They don't think, I know what I'm doing. They want as much money as possible. And I'm like, oh, you, you went to school with Chris. You know, it's like you want to increase sales school like I know right away, especially in real. Like, I had hired creatives several times since I started the pro group. And when people do that, I'm like, oh, they also say often I just do value based pricing. I'm like, yeah, sure, not with me anyway, you know, so I'm like, mean, tired. I am the mean client. But so I would prefer the anchored price and like a range price range. So I know because then I know, like the top, you know, price, what can I expect included in that or the lower? Because even if I say like, oh, I don't even I'm not even close to that budget, then you have to decide, is this the right fit as a client? Do you want to lower your price or do you want to recommend me to someone else? But it's better to take that conversation early on instead of like one two hour, you know, into it. I don't want to spend so much time with someone. If I don't know, we're a good fit when it comes to price. Could I follow up there with? Is it's OK to ask, what's the budget question. If you've been doing the scope first and then you as a creative, take the initiative to. So this sounds really great only, and I think this work will be interesting to do with you. But yeah, what's your budget like? You ask the question first. It's different than if you get the question what's the budget, if you know what I mean? Yeah, but I just feel like I don't know why. And like, maybe I don't understand that. But Mo, maybe you don't remember how you teach how, how Kris teach that or Blair or whoever teach that. Why do you even want to ask about the budget instead of Ankara price? You know that I know what Chris has told me directly one on one, and it's changed my perspective a lot, and how could maybe it'll help you? He said. Mo, you're not a good read of people's pockets. So when I go into the conversation, I need to be I need to what this client is potentially willing to pay. Are they a client that's willing to pay big money? Are they not? So he said if as you heighten that sense, that Spidey sense, if the client doesn't have a big budget, talk about money first. If the client does have a big budget, dedicate a lot of time to identifying the problem in the scope, then go into budget. So if I sense that the client doesn't have big pockets or I'm getting a better read, my first question is this sounds amazing. Before we get too excited on this call, which I'm prone to do because I want to be friend to all my clients immediately, I need to know what kind of money are you willing to spend on something like this for what you're trying to solve? But if it's a big client like Anneliese dealing with because Anneliese dealing with Fortune 500 people. So when she gets to that question, it's probably after a lot of strategy. So if you can sense that this is a big client, you're doing all of this diagnosing first and then you're saying, well, this sounds like a big problem that needs to be solved. I'm thinking a range of x to y when you hear that, how does that sound for you? Are we on target? Are we not? What do you, annalee, does that answer the question? Yeah, and I do think I remember now that I heard Chris say that I actually totally forgot about it, but it is a point, I can give him that it's a point, but it's good if you can do it first, because it's the problem is when I'm as a client, ask you how much it costs, because then it's like already too late. That is weird when you ask me that question, but if you do it first, like Mossad is actually really good because maybe I say, like, you know, if you ask me about a photo shoot and I say, like, yeah, you know, I'm thinking about like, maybe two days, you know, I think the budget is about 40k and you will be like, oh, shoot, Oh my god, I would probably just ask for 20. That is really good, that's why Chris is doing it, because I know maybe my budget is higher than you were, you know, suggested, but you need to. You can't. You can't wait until the client ask you how much. That's when it gets weird, I think. The only can I jump in here to follow up on that? So you mean that if you ask that question quite early, what's your budget? It's more natural than after, the whole scope, you know everything and you know exactly how much it's actually cost you just trying to fish out if they have more money than what you actually would take, that's what your point is. Personally, if I don't, if I have a smaller client, I wouldn't talk even more than 10 minutes before I mentioned the price. I don't want to put it, I never do discovery call like 30 minutes. I don't put in so much time. If I don't know that there can afford it, it's like, then I can send them to someone else. Then you also have the sound cost in this, so as much more time you're using, as more time you're using with the client and you're getting invested, you also getting invested in not losing the engagement. That's what they have with the sound cost, right? So if you're spending half an hour with the client and you don't know yet what the budget is at the end of the pole and you get to that question, you already invested half an hour and just take 5,000. That's because I only spent half an hour on this anyway. Yeah, I don't know. I just I just have that rule. Like, it's like most small client. I tell the price upfront. I can just say what I start at. You know, sometimes it's enough. If I start that, I never I always start. Like my starting point is like from 15k or 20k. Then people will like, fall off their share. And if they say no, then I know that it's not a good fit. Maybe they expect they expected 5K for brand strategy and then I send them to someone else, and I'm happy to do that. And I would never convince them otherwise because they don't even want my help or need my help. Or can afford your help. No, but I mean, I think it's fair to both in the conversation. So I think it's good. If you I can understand why you like Chris is saying that because it's a really good advice, but you need to do it kind of like Mo did that example. That's the way you do it. And then it sounds perfectly natural, and I can actually give you a bigger budget, probably than you would even consider asking for. But this is if you go for a bigger fish like a bigger client, because if you go for a really small one, I don't know, they would probably, you know, don't say high enough. Don't make the mistake I did where I had a big client on the phone and because I asked for the budget too early, it came across disrespectful. Like, that's why he says small client, get to the money, big client analyze, because like Anna Lee said, these big clients will read you a mile away. If you are not a person who can really effectively understand their problem before quoting it, because the quote is justified by the problem versus a small client that just needs something to get done. So now I'm trying to get better at gauging the pocket of the client before I get them on the phone. And this is a clubhouse call that me and Chris are can do because he was like, do you really think this is a problem for many people? I was like, I know this is a problem for many people. Because I because sometimes me and Lance know this very well. People on Instagram will hit us up with a verified badge, a few 100,000 followers and old US will be like, oh, this person got money. No, that person has influence. That doesn't necessarily mean they have money, which translates to we have a bad read of what big money looks like, so we need to get better at reading that is seasoned and has, you know, CMO and CEO and Fortune 500 experience. So she knows how they talk, how they come in the meeting, how they ask for things. So she's like, OK, this person has x amount of dollars. Let me spend a little bit more time. But if they come in rushed or whatever makes a small client, which will find out from Chris on that clubhouse call, then you do the Save yourself the sunk loss bias situation and say, I'm super excited. This sounds amazing. But before we get ahead of ourselves, what were you hoping to spend on this? And now there's a different dialogue, because they're like, Oh. And then they'll probably say, like I was thinking to spend $1000, and I've heard Chris say this like. Over were definitely were definitely on two different pages, I can't do it for that amount. I know there's somebody that can. It just can't be me. And also question, yeah, sure about that. I I'm wondering if you or anybody or anybody else, you if I was a high paying client, a midplane client or a low paying client, I just don't know if you could get that off of the bat because I was also on the fly. But I'm just wondering if you saw behaviors and such that would tell you if it was low or high or in the middle to me, a client to me, like how I would define you. Hello yes, yes, Hello. Yes, OK. Because is that correct, something you didn't know what you want. Or you knew what you wanted, but you didn't know what you asked for because you used words and things that was not connected to each other. And I knew right away that you didn't know how to increase brand awareness. I hear where you're coming from. And I think that based on how we plan our sales strategies and who we target, I think that would make a lot of sense. The thing is, though, as I was doing role play, I was trying to figure out a number that would be happy, like it would make sense to Chris, but also like I didn't want to pay too much at the same time. So I was thinking about ways that possibly I was making money or wanting to fund it outside of the actual business that I was coming from. Do you know what I'm saying? So like, oh, really? Mo, do you understand what I'm saying, perhaps? You may be, but maybe you can clarify a little bit, I understood like you don't want to pay a lot, but you also want to pay. What's fair that is that right? Yeah, so I was trying to have that fair conversation when it got to actually budget, I wanted to kind of like go into it a little bit, but yeah, I was. The way that I feel like I was acting. And being was much more of like showcasing what maybe a possibly low paying client would be. But I didn't want that to be necessarily the case because maybe there might be money somewhere else, and I just felt like I'd act this way or be this way. Some people, I've had some certain clients who just feel like they have enough f-you money to just like, you know, pay for services and such. Do you know what I'm saying? Do you know what that is? And only a few money? Yeah, I know. OK OK. I just like if I had that conversation with you, I would, probably because I think you made assumptions about the solution. You had to go what you wanted to do. But you also had your own solution on how to get there. And I didn't agree with that solution, so I would probably have questioned that. In that call. a nice way, but I was like, you know, you talked about advertising. You want to be a thought leader. You talked about brand strategy and to increase brand awareness and then you started to talk about advertising. And for me, that is not the way you need to do it. And I would probably had, you know, I would probably had talked to you about that first. Like, why do you think it's important to do advertising to reach brand awareness and see what I brought? Yeah, sorry. La I said. But first, you have brought a budget to me in the way that you would have done it right? No, I don't think so. I because you didn't talk for him for so long, I wouldn't. I needed to understand the problem first, because even talking about budget, because you were like throwing in brand strategy and advertising and a lot of different things, I could never say a price if I didn't understand the problem. OK, I got it. All right, first of all, I understand the problem. So it's not that even if I say like, yeah, I often mention price early, but I never mentioned price before. I know the problem. So it depends how fast I can define the problem. It could take 10 minutes, but could also take half an hour and then it's my, you know, it's my problem and waste of time because I wasn't sharp enough that day or something. I think that's something mindful, something to be mindful of, and I yeah, I think the way you're shaping it and thinking about it, it is when I am more sharper, it seems like I feel a little bit more intuitive about what the actual issue is and I can start naming it versus if I'm a little tired. And yeah, I think that's right. Thank you. I think your role play was amazing because so good. I think all of you are like now. It's like all the time, like, Oh my god, she's such a good actor. Like, if you're really playing a client or is she being herself? I think you're so great. Yeah, thank you. I won the first place Shakespeare competition in high school, so I think that goes for something. I haven't done it since then, though. No, I always like to find the problem first. When you don't know the problem, you can't actually say any price at all. I got to go, you guys, but I appreciate listening to you guys and really picking it apart. This is really help. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Real, real quick, I think maybe this will help some people in the room. I think I've shared this story before, but how come is asking something that I think the story will help? Chris was telling me about a time when Sony called him up and they were like, Yo, we're trying to do this video game ad. It's going to trailer. It's going to. It needs to be amazing. We're thinking this, we're thinking this. And of course, he mirrors and matches so well and he's like, Oh my god, that sounds incredible. Yeah, we could definitely do this kind of CGI. We could do this kind of animation. I'm thinking probably between depending on how we're going to do it 250 to three, 5,3500,000 is that. Is that what you're already thinking? And they were like, Oh no, we were thinking like, like 45,000. And that's when he switched up, and he was like, oh, OK, OK, you painted me a different picture than what I was thinking for that scope, let's talk about what we can do best for that budget. And I think that does take a level of. Experience and seasoning and knowing what a 250,000 commercial looks like versus a 45,000 commercial and how you come in with your energy because they came in hot like ready to make this explosive ad and he was he came in hot with them two was like, yes, let's go. What do we think? And we have like 350 for this and they're like, no, we're thinking, it's like, OK, let's talk about what the best 45,000 trailer would look like for this game. And I think that to me, was a game changer when I heard it. Yeah, I love that because I think that is a situation where I am so often. Like when? People at a prospect prospect like paint a picture of what they want with my experience is like, OK, we're talking about maybe around, you know, at least 500k here. And then I ask them like, well, you know, what are you, what are you thinking about budget? Because I need to know because I know that this much, you know, and they're like, no, you know, we just have like. 40k I'm like, OK, but OK, that is not this is not realistic, you know, and you can be I mean, I can be honest because if you have the experience of doing things in different price range, you can just refer to that. And you know, but you don't have to be like, you don't have to have an arrogant like attitude. You can just be really kind but honest and say, like, OK, but you know, maybe I could help you, but then we need to go back on your budget level and talk about what can I actually do for you on this level? Because I know I can give you something that really will give you effect. You know, but we need to start all over again because this is another budget level, you know, just have that because you guide them. You almost teach them a little bit, but you do it in a really, you know, nice way. It's not that you need to be polite. You're just you're just sharing your experience with them. And that's probably why they call you from the beginning. Anybody that hasn't spoken well, I think we can analyze it, OK, if we wrap in like 10 15. OK, perfect. Does anyone have a question, a thought? By the way, this shit is way harder in real life than it is when we theorize about it. So don't feel bad if you hear it and it makes sense, especially on these clubhouse calls and you're like, I got it. And then you go into the sales call and it just doesn't go the way you thought. So, but that constant practice is what's going to get you to that Christo and Ali level. I think it's the opposite. That's why I don't do a role play because I think it's kind of easy in real world because then really just like, I don't have to pretend I don't have to show off. Or it feels like performance like in real life. And I'm an empath. So I feel people's emotion and it's the real emotions because it's a real situation and I can read them and, you know, just have a conversation. I relax as soon as this front of people. I think it's more performance and people are acting, and I can't read people's energy when they're acting. It's like fake. so I feel anxious in this situation because it doesn't feel natural for me. So for me, it's actually the opposite. So I'm I think I need to practice with you. I need to find a way because I want to share because I know I have things to share and I like doing sales. It's just that I don't feel comfortable in this like role play in front of people saying, I don't know why. Yeah, I think when Chris does role play and then Richie, you're up, dude. He makes like to me that I think that's exactly how he does a sales call because he does. He's not worried about the audience, but I know how difficult that can be because the first few role plays and I think the reason why I can stay in the pocket with him is like son, I've had theater training, so I'm not worried about the audience necessarily. But he wants you to stay in the pocket based on what you want the outcome to be. And I think the role play that did really well on YouTube was because D'Arrigo came in and said, no, Chris, you have to close this. And he made parameters around it. But I think he does show us techniques that would help us if we didn't know any better. But yeah, I mean, you need to practice together because I'm trying to talk to these CBOs too. What's up? You know, I'm trying to talk to these CEOs close to that have 500,000. OK, Richie, you're up now. Yeah hey, I don't know if I have exactly a question, but more so just vibing off everything that's kind of been shared. I have a lot of clients that will kind of come to me and downplay the service of video. They'll be like, Oh yeah, I just have a production, you know, we're kind of already planning it. We have the models. We just need you to show up and shoot. And I'm like, OK, cool. I try to get a little bit more detail of what they want, and then I might quote them my standard price, which like the lowest engagement I'll try to do is start like at 5 and they'll be like, oh, it's, you know, we just have 1,000 or 1,500. And I always kind of just struggle getting them to the point like where this is like my minimum, that I do a project and they're just like, well, it's just too expensive. Like, I don't think my guys will go for it. And at this point, I through the sales training and everything that I've learned at that point, I'm just like, OK, well, I think we're just not the right client for each other. But I feel like that happens so much or I just get people that downplay and maybe they don't know what it takes to actually put on a well-produced video that might convert for them and stuff. But I'm learning that just asking the right questions when they do come to me at like, you know, oh, we only have $1000, I need to dig more to let them know what their actual problem is because they're just coming to me that they want a video. They don't know what. I don't know their problem. They're just like, we just have a shoot going on already. Like, let's say it's a photo shoot and we just want to add video and I feel like I always kind of get stuck there. So kind of just a thought that I wanted to add, and I don't know if anybody else kind of gets that. I think you should frame it in a question, because I think this is something that probably other people feel, even if they're a designer like, oh, don't worry, it's not a branding thing, it's a logo. It's something right. Like maybe phrasing a question. How do you deal with the objection when let's say you're selling a logo and they're like, well, it's just a simple logo shouldn't take you very long, right? We only have 500 bucks. The last person did it for 500. Can you do for 500. That's probably still a terrible Emily, how you. Ok? didn't we talk about your video first, but you change it to logo, but it could be whatever. Sorry yeah, it could be. It could be video or logo. I guess the question is, how do you deal with an objection when it comes to you with a low budget? I think I get it. But first of all, I would like to say that we talked about before, like before even people reach out to you. And this is what Chris and Mo talked about before with positioning. When when I looked at, I look at your website, when I look at your case studies, what kind of clients you work with or if I hear you on Clubhouse or wherever I find you. Don't want that kind of clients to reach out to you. And so you need to look at the price you want to charge. I think that is the first step, you know, to like, position yourself in a way that you even don't need to have that conversation because I'm wondering like, why do I never get that? I never have clients reaching out to me asking that. And I just wonder, like why? Maybe because I'm so bad at marketing myself, so maybe that's why I don't know, but OK, so but when they do, to be honest, it's not like Chris always said, for me, it's like you never, ever convince anyone like if that is, if that is a thing that they're not willing. It's so many red flags is how they talk to you, how they not respect what you do. They don't know anything about what you're offering and the prize. I would like right away thing like, is this a client I want to work with? It's better to aim for the right level of clients instead of always ending up in this kind of situation. It's not about convincing people and sell to people. It's about finding the right clients. All right, thank you. So what I hear is positioning, I think that's going to be the most important to not getting those low paying clients and also when they tell you that they don't have, you can always tell like this is how I work. This is the kind of result the level I aim for. Is that something that aligns with you? Maybe they just so not, you know, maybe they just need to hear that and they change their mind and then have a budget. But if you feel like this is not leading anywhere, I would just leave that and, you know, send them to someone else. How do you kindly say no? And when someone comes to you and they say, oh, we thought it would be 5 for consulting, for brand, we can't afford your rate. Yeah, yeah, I'm so sorry that you thought that, but you know, this is how I work, this is what I offer. But I know other people that's just starting out and they need to start somewhere. And maybe you can be a good fit. Do you want me to recommend anyone? Yeah, it's great. I've done that as well. Sometimes when I play a little bit hard to get to clients, sometimes I do that just to get them as well. You know, it's a little bit like fishing or dating or whatever. It's like when you know that. When you know that they're really like, want to buy something and then you get a little bit too offensive, have you done that? Sometimes, you know, when you like, you know that they want it, so you get a little bit ahead of yourself because you're so like, you know, you feel like, oh, I can get this, you know, and then you feel like they're like. You know what, that word, when they like, not coming forward to you there, like a retreat retreat? Yeah, they're retreating. Have you been in calls when they do like that, you know, you can feel that they're retreating. Yeah and you're like, you, you agreed right away. And they're like, wait, maybe there's something wrong because you agreed to? Yes and when they do that, the worst thing you can do is kind of go after them because they will do it even more. What I do then is like, I turn around and I walk the other way and I pretend that I even don't want to work with them. Then they come running after me. I almost do that in every discussion when I talk about price. It's exactly like, what if you have a dog? You know what I'm talking about, because when dogs, when you know, when you call your dog and they don't want to come, it's like you need to show them something that they really like instead of running after them. You just walk the other way and the dog will come running after you. That's how client works. I like how this call is all about dogs. It's the same thing. Clients are like dogs or horses. That's my theory, it or man, whoever is editing this call. Go ahead. Just take that part out just, you know, just cut back. I had to cut our Instagram story, so I had to actually to be real. I had a Diane summer camp. I had a whole thing just about sales and these kind of companies and people love that because if people don't like the sales, they need to understand, like the psychology behind it. I just tried to make it easy to understand. Richie, I can I ask you something? Yeah how often do you get that question? Like, if you were to say, 10 prospects, how often out of those 10? I'd say maybe five, six, I'd say a lot of them just don't understand what the price that goes into putting together quality production and especially, I think being in l.a., everybody and their mom has a camera and everybody and their mom is charging $500 for a video. So when they come to me and they hear 5,000 thousand, whatever the scope is, they're shocked. And now I'm to the point where it's like, well, here's my work. Here's my body of work, so you can see what I'm able to produce. I can do this for you, but it's going to be at this price. And now I'm at the point where instead of me being kind of desperate for the business, I'm like, hey, I'm good. Like, I'm really busy. I'd love to take you on as a client, but I can't do anything under this scope, and that kind of pushes them to be like, oh, well, you know, now that I know that you're this price, like, we'll work towards that budget or when I can't afford you will come back to you. That's kind of what I've been, what I've been hearing. And there's some other objections that I get, like when this recent client that came to me, 1,500 he's like, you know, it's a low budget and things like that, and I'm like, I can't really do anything under 5K. And he's like, well, if you give me a 5K budget and I go back to my partner like, they're just going to say no, and I don't know if we'll have future business together. So that's kind of where we're at. And that's always kind of the tough part. They kind of throw it on me like, well, if you don't do this with us, you're going to miss out just so you know. Yeah, I mean, clients say all the shit, right? Like they make you feel like they're going to give you hundreds of thousands of projects over the next 90 days. And it's just a game technique, and I'm learning to make it a game. The reason why I opened with that question for you, though, is if 60% of the people that are reaching out to you or coming in with that price, then Anneliese 100% spot on that the positioning is not reflecting 5K. So maybe there's some work that needs to be done there. However, with the objection that you opened up with that, I get all the time. Something that I learned from Chris that you can do it with poise without having to justify your price is, he calls it, embrace and pivot. So you embrace what they said. You fully accept it. This is the double down that he's calling it now. So you're embracing it and then you're pivoting and you're going away having them justify their logic. So what it could sound like for you and me is, Oh yeah, and if you have it all figured out for the shoot, it doesn't sound like you need somebody that's expensive. Why would you want to hire me then? That's a good one. And now you're asking them to justify why they called you what they see in you. What they want from the work you do. And then you're taking notes, well, we've seen you worked with x. The style that you shoot in is, is this and then you go into that questioning that Chris does so well out of all those things that you listed, what's the most important? And then they'll tell you. And then you say, OK, do you think that hiring somebody at that budget will knock this out of the park for you? Or will you be concerned of things like revisions? And I'm not getting it right, and they'll probably say, like, well, I don't, I don't know. That's that's really why we're reaching out to you. And then you can then say, well, if these are your expectations for someone like myself to come in and shoot. I start at 5 k. How do we feel about that? But they've already justified for you why 5K is worth it to them versus you having to say, well, that's too low, fam. I start at 5K so that embrace and pivot has been key. And just remember that it's a game I'm trying to remind myself because I immediately want to fucking hire everybody like, yes, I can do all the work for you. Please book me, please. Yeah, that's great. Is there a call? Sorry, is there a call that he kind of breaks down this embracing pivot? I can't I can't remember off the top of my head, I know he did it on clubhouse, though, clubhouse, a lot of times he did it, he did it a few times on Clubhouse. He was like, then why would you hire me? Or that's one way to give it, but it's all based on what they actually tell you. He's really good about being present. So whatever I like that, I like how you said that kind of flipping in on the client and just being like, well, you've got to figure it out like, you know, find somebody that can do it for $1,500. You can actually just search YouTube for embrace and pivot. The first video that comes up is overcoming objections from the future. It's a great video game positioning. I know who's saying that. Also, those questions like why this? Why now? Why me? What book is that? Because there's really good also to ask those questions like why this? Why now? Why me? Because then they actually also like, they almost sell to you why they need to do it, why they need to do it now, and why they actually reached out to you. Your clearance, isn't it? No, no, I think it's someone else. I don't remember, I just remember the questions. I don't remember who it is. He took it from a book. There's actually a book called Why me? Why this? Why now? But I think it's he. He sends out really good emails. I think his name is John. Yes thank you, John. Jonathan Yes. Yes I think that those questions are good because then they have to motivate for you in a way why they want to do it and why they reached out to you. Can I ask something real quick or are we still doing the hand q thing? I'm about to bounce, but there are people ahead of you, bro. So that's why I'm asking, I go, where do we want to go? We know we can take people in the right order. I think like Lance was for Lance's first and then then, yeah, I'm Tom. OK can you hear me? Is this my working? Yes, we can hear you. Now, you sound good and look good. Listen, I hear you. I just made sure first I'm turning it on today. It's kind of goes along with like Ritchie's question, but it's a different like direction. So how do you get those clients when you do give them them their number and in the head, they didn't give you a number, you gave them a number. And they just go, yeah, we can't do that and like, walk away. Like, that's where I found myself, where I see I watch all these videos and like here, all these role playing in my head, I'm very strategic and I have this direction and I'm like, I could say this this, this, this. But I've like just hit multiple roadblocks where they just drop and I'm like, wait a minute, all these role plays, there's back and forth. But when I have these conversations, I'm like, yeah, we can't do that. All right, see you. I'm like, wait, whoa, come back. Like, what can you do? Because, you know, the repositioning is like, OK, well, here's my budget, and they go, oh, we can't do that. I want to just hear what their budget is. So I could say, well, for that budget, this is what we can do, but I just keep hitting the all right, we're out. What do you do with that? When do when does that exactly happened and does it happen. The same, like in the same situation all the time? There is one where it was like they were messaging me saying, hey, we just need this, and I tried to play the game of like, hey. So let me, I'm just getting this straight. Like, this is the need. This is how this would help your business really well. They I knew they just they had a number and they just needed one thing, and I could totally offer that to them. It was just b-roll, and I was just trying to dig out like, hey, so if I Lance created this or shot this footage for you, it would be like, wow, your audience and you just you're trying to get this work for this one thing, you're going to be like, yep, that's all we need. You don't have to edit you just we just need to show up and shoot like, all right, here's my day rate. And then just heard nothing back. And so it's like that conversation could have kept going. And I even I think I even asked, like, hey, if that doesn't work, like, maybe there's something where I don't have to produce or bring xyz gear like I want to work with you. This is great without sounding desperate, like I want to work with you as much as like, hey, just let me know. Like what you're thinking. Heard nothing back. Had another phone call where like, hey, we're I was. I'm helping a client with marketing. I was like, here's our marketing budget guy. He can. He can offer you x amount of money for one month and like, OK, well, how much would the video cost to promote that video? I was like, oh, well, this on top of like, so OK. So we can only afford the marketing guy. And I was like, OK, that's fine. This is my price. And they just left it. And I was like, I eventually came back later because my issue is starting off at New in this position, like my skill sets are, you know, top notch. But my work previously does not show what now. Like the direction I'm going into, which is like commercialized marketing content. And so when they go, well, let me see the work or what could you provide? I'm over here going like I'm setting my expectations so high that I'm willing to get this high client. But they're like, hey, we don't see any work. You've done this before or. I just take eat it and invest in myself and take these lower like paying clients to then be able to position myself as like, here's what I've done for a client and watch them grow. So I think that's like where I'm at because they're just saying no, because I've never seen the value that I've brought to another client before like that in my head. That might be the direction or reason why people say no and just drop it and go. Either they'll find someone else or they'll go a different direction. Is a lot of kind of jumping. Yeah, I was going to do the same, but you go ahead. Go ahead. I was speaking a lot. Actually, I was just googling Lance as well as Richie, and I found it kind of funny because my question was probably in the same direction. But we are all commercial ad video guys. So I think we're all facing that same problem. Coincidentally, I also have some, like my own opinion, that I've been forming lately, which I found quite interesting because not only do I produce content lately, I'm going through a rebrand and I sold my. I noticed how my brain actually sold myself on someone I wanted to hire to a point whereby right now, if they left, I'll be like, Oh no, I'll pay any amount you want. And I think this is the same thing that Mo actually was giving me advice about qualifying the client as well as I think the other thing was niching down. And I always heard about the niche thing, but I never really got it. But lately? So what happened was I have a my friend's girlfriend basically works in an agency. She works in an RGA. So creative agency background. The other thing that she has done is I heard she went to this other company when I want to, I want to help you out here real quick. What did you have to share for Lance before you go into your story? Oh Yeah. Lance, in some way, actually sorry. Being long winded. But it was a part of the story. So basically, she had three factors that made her the perfect person for the role I needed. And I realized that once it occurred to me, I was willing to pay any price. Like, like $1,000 a day was what she quoted me, and I realized that if I, if I didn't sell myself on her, if anyone else came to me and said, like, here's my services, I happen to be someone that can help you with the agency. I would have bargained down because I would be like, HMM, $200 a day. A little bit high. You know, I'll be trying to just save as much money as I can, right? But once she fit all three criteria criteria, I was kind of really sold in. And then recently, I think Chris is having this talk with this other guy named what's his name? It's a positioning guy positioning the positioning expert. Position yourself. His name is Joel Hilgert. Yeah I went to his I saw this, it says here consultant to the creative entrepreneur helps emerging studios become industry leaders. Elite studios two million to 20 million helps bring motion sound experimental productions from two million to 20 million. I'm like, Holy shit, that is totally me. Now I'm willing to pay this guy $5,000 a day as well, and I see myself getting suckered in because of the whole niche thing. Adam and I realized how effective that is. So now I'm starting to try to really niche down my video production into technology and gaming. I think it's basically about walking away like you want clients that reach out to you because they feel like you're the only person that can do this job for them. And if they go with you, you're safe. But again, I'm not doing it well, too. I'm still messed up, so that's just my thoughts right now. So in short, lance, I think what's being said is. When you position yourself as the best fit, you won't suffer from those kind of conversations because the client will be bought in and it's like, you are. For me, I want you. Is that right? When did I get that, alison? That's that's really it. I like once you fill the security where this person really is, that perfect fit. For you. I realized that I would open my wallet a lot more. Yeah, but do you know what that is about? Uh, say it. Say it in Toledo. You know, so one thing is missing down because that's how you create awareness when you have your knees. You can create awareness. You can create awareness for everyone. But you can do it in your niche. But when you have created awareness, you need to build like and trust. Because if I hired people like I can, I can actually, you know, you can role play with me like another day if you want to like we can have another call, just the video guys and me, because I hired video guys from 5K to 500k for like 15 years. You know, I know what kind of questions that people will ask, depending on how from a really small project to when you work with really big commercial TV commercials. And you know, I could be that client and role play with you if you want to. But because I do think it's about trust, so it's not so easy to just, you know, it's about building trust because I want to work with people I can trust. So it's not that you are the only one who's doing that because there are a lot of people doing that. But if I know you can make my life a little bit easier and I can trust you and you will be there for me and you understand me, then your odds are so much better and that the cost when you have a little bit higher. But yet it's not so much about the money, it's about the relations with. If I trust you or not, the money is not so important. They say it's important, but it's not. My my video, my video squad in here, Lance. You do not have to justify for them, have them justify for you again the embrace and pivot, like when you're having those conversations and they're saying things like, we just want somebody to come shoot it for the marketing. It's like, OK, based on your expectations, why? Who would you hire? And have them list out the criteria of why they would hire that person and then ask them, OK, if this person were to knock it out of the park, how much would that be for you? And then when they say and then when they say, has it, Chris said this before, when they say like $1,000 and he's like, Oh. I thought this was a bigger problem than 1,000 problem. What if what if this freelancer comes in on the shoot and doesn't know how to product or how to production manage? Are we sure that for $1000, you're going to get the right person to make the shots? How much do you want to be hands off? They've painted you a picture of their expectations. You're painting a picture of what Payne would look like if they hired the wrong person. Then you're saying how much you're worth. And I did this yesterday on a call, and the person was like, thank you so much for asking that question of what success looks like and all they're hiring us for is to edit a video. But I mean, I could just be like, Oh yeah, we can totally edit, just send me the video. So I think we all have to learn, especially me, like we don't have to justify shit, and I actually wrote something that I'm going to post on Instagram today this morning. So it feels really on theme. Have them justify why they want to pay what they're paying from a place of. I care for you. I just want to hear how much important this is to you. And you can see, Chris, do this so freaking well every single time. And also, when we talk about positioning, we always talk about it like, where do you want to be in people's mind? That that is positioning like, what do you want to have in people's mind? But I also add in people's hearts. Because sometimes we get so technical. And for me, it's a lot about intuition, like I know if I trust someone. And if I like someone. And if I want to work with that person, it's more about how it feels for me than just irrational things. So the positioning, I think positioning should also be like where you want to be in people's mind, but also in people's hearts And how you actually make them feel that way. And let me ask a follow up question on that. Yeah no, because I want to hear from some ladies before all of us, men dominate the call. So rich you with your permission. No, absolutely. So Lexi was next, but I got, yeah, Lexi still here. But she lowered her hand. Yes, thank you. I go, I think I popped off for a second. But my question is, and if this isn't the right timing, we can talk about it another time. But when you know you're up against other people, so at the end of like, you're about to close. But before you say, can I send over this proposal? Do you ask the question like, OK, I mean, you want to know if you're being shopped around or if there's other people that you're talking to, right? Because that will no one weigh in on when they might get back to you? So you kind of how do you deal with that part when you're going to be up against other people? Do you ask that question? Do you assume that question? I mean, just how do you deal with that part of it? And do you face it head on? Can you just repeat the first part of it? Again, I'm a little bit, I don't know if I understand your question. So when you're in the sales call, this isn't necessarily an objection, but I guess it could be thought of that as an objection. Like basically sort of it's why you? Why would they hire you as opposed to somebody else, which is kind of the conversation that I think we were just talking about. But how do you? You know, you're going to be if you're asking the question, are you going to be looking at other people to help you out with this? Oh, you mean if you ask them are I up like, Oh yeah, I mean, if I ask them. Or if I know that they're going to be looking at some other options, how do I how do I deal with that? Do I face it head on and say, are you? Am I up against some other people? And how can I answer any questions to help you decide or. I'm actually a bit. Maybe, you know, now I'm not Chris, so I don't know how he responds to this. So I just I can answer from my own experience. I always tried to close deals before I even send something I don't like to put in a lot of time writing proposals. And I don't know. It's I mean, it's fun to have an agreement before, and that's when it often comes in, comes in like, OK, so if everything you know, we talk about now, we were agreeing about this budget. Are we ready to, you know, I'm just sending this over. Are we ready to get started? And then they might say, you know, Europe, I'm also talking to two other, then you can actually. That's an objection. So then you can start talking about that. I think we did that last time. Maybe so. So I think it's for me, it's good to almost have that agreement before you even like, you know, people are so afraid. Most people are so afraid of actually asking the questions. And, you know, so they just, oh, OK, I send you a proposal. It's like, I don't even, you know, I'm probably not even going to hire them. It's my thought. They're like, why are they doing that? You know, they're just wasting their time because they're probably afraid of asking me. If I'm the client I actually had that conversation. Why should you put in a lot of time writing a proposal if you don't even like? That's what I'm getting at is I don't want to do that, so that's a good point. You're saying qualify that in the call and if there are, if there's opposition, then figure that out in the call. Before you write a proposal, Yeah. Because the thing is, you want to have every objection up in the court. You can never handle an objection after you wrote the proposal like you need to have every objection before you even close. Got it. That's how I do it, I don't know how to increase the state and anally I'm starting to realize that I want to be a fly on the wall in your meetings because you're kind of like a savage in the best way, and I want to see this. So I'm ready. I want to be a role play partner so you can do a 300 people because I think they're going to get a lot of value. Lexi, there's two things for this particular question. Annalee just mentioned it. It's due the hypothetical. If at the end, if you've done all your work for the sales call and now we're getting to the close, do the hypothetical if, which is if I were to go ahead and send you a proposal. Are we ready to start this project? And that's surfacing any objections, but the second thing is he did it with Ahmed, and it's saying exactly what's on your mind when it comes to competitors. Is it safe to assume that you're shopping around? Are there other people that you might be talking to for this project? And if they say no, then you're golden. If they say yes, then you transition into the next question to qualify, how they're going to decide. And you can say, well, how are you going to pick the person for the job? And then they'll say whatever. And a caveat to that is I've heard in multiple role plays. If they say, yeah, we're obligated to shop around and you're actually the most expensive, you could literally just say, well, do you just need to do. You just need a proposal like, do you just need a one page pricing sheet for me so you guys can make a decision on your end? And they'll probably be like, yeah, because if you're working with a marketing agency, sometimes they've already made a decision, but they're obligated to shop around so you can say, oh, so you just need a one page price sheet so you guys can make a decision for who you're trying to hire. They're like, yeah, oh, I can do that for you. No problem. Well, wait a minute. That's sounds like the opposite of what Ali just said, because you wouldn't want to. Be shopped around like you'd want to be the only contender, right? Yeah, I guess I was moving too fast. I gave three different scenarios. One, if you're trying to close the client, you're surfacing it with the if two, if you don't feel like you're going to close, you can directly ask them, are you shopping around and how are you going to decide that's to close. The third option is you uncovering that they've already made a decision and you are just an obligatory third call for them to give that information to whoever is the decision maker. So it's just three different scenarios. But all of them are in a state of uncovering that so you don't have to do unnecessary work, right? Because if your example three, then that call could be done in 10 minutes. You know, it's like, hey, I just want to know how you guys making decisions on who you're picking, and they're like, oh, well, actually, we're shopping around we and this is kind of a complementary call. So like, oh, OK, cool, wonderful. Would you mind if I pick your brain a little bit on how you guys are making decisions in case we work again in the future? But it sounds like I don't like that. Oh, you say that? Let me pick your brain how you make decisions. No, if they're I'm talking about the specific scenario. If they because I've heard, I've seen literally, Chris, do this if they're like, we actually just need a third price, but we know who we're going for. It's like, Oh. But then when you kind of say, like, I'm not in the business of providing prices for non-work like, I don't know, I mean, you wouldn't say that, but you'd maybe say, no, I would say any comment like that would just turn me totally off like, right? No, that's a weird scenario, for sure. Yeah, because I do think more like on point up to this. Yeah but up to that, I totally agree with everything. Every time you say things like in a really like calm way with self-confidence and it's like, you know, you know, is it safe to assume that you're, you know, talking to others just with a really gentle voice? And like, you know, I understand that, you know, then you feel they feel like you're so confident so you can actually have a conversation about this. So you're a little bit above the other desperate people. So I think it's a lot about tone of voice when it comes to this situation. I think everything most said was like, really good, but if you say, like you said now, like I say, how would be a little bit like turned off by that if I were a client, to be honest, because it's a little bit aggressive. Oh, you're saying my what I said? Yeah turned off by. Yeah, Yeah. I wouldn't probably say that, but I kind of feel like I don't want to just supply a proposal knowing that I'm not going to get the work. So starting up, like I think what most talking about, I just put that YouTube link in the chat where that example comes up. I think Mo's referring to like an agency that literally just has to pick three, and they've already they already know, which one they're going with, but they have to present to a board or whatever the price. And so you're actually helping them saying, yeah, I'll just write something up real quick for you, even if it's not going, you're not going with me because they might already have it. And I think the conversation is different where you're trying to win the win. The agencies like actual budget and you're trying to win the job, but they're already actually just coming to you saying, hey, can you just like, help us out? And he's like nailing it by saying, oh, you just need me for something and you're not getting the job and you find out that they're just wasting your time, basically. So what you're saying is like here, I'll write this up for you. That's why it's that one page. Here, just take this number if I have the be and. Here's a number so that if you watch the video, I think that's where Moe got it from. I just watched it the other day and that's what he was talking about. You never want to, like, lose the job, but when you find out they're wasting your time and they're just picking around that they need literally legally three offers and they are, and you can tell they're not going with you. I think that's the off situation that none of us want to be in, but that's what I was referring to. It's a very unique situation. Yes, and I probably did the explanation a disservice. So maybe just stay in the pocket of option one and option two the hypothetical if and then a direct question about if they're shopping around option three, probably Chris gets because he's big time and he knows these people. And he's able to be like, y'all are just shopping around, right? You just need a number so you can make your decision. And they're like, yes, and he's like, perfect. I would not make that assumption if I were you. No, I wouldn't go for that. But and I do think like I want to say like I to remind yourself that it's always more important your tone of voice and how you say things than exactly what you say. Because we think so much about exactly the right things to say, but if you say things with the wrong tone of voice, too aggressive or too like, you know, people react on that right away, especially like high sensitive people like me could be really like turned off from just a comment, you know, that could destroy everything. Some clients are like that. Yeah, that was a big takeaway for me today, the way I say take a breath was not how I intended for that person to feel because I like you so much more. You know that and my friends, so I'm like, you know, if you'd tell me that I'm like, oh, it's smoke, but if you were someone else, I would really react on it. So let me just ask as a follow up to that question, like if you're in the position of the person saying you say so, I'm guessing that you're probably talking to some other folks and they say, yes, you say, oh, what? What do you say? I mean, do you say, oh, that's great? Well, how would how would if you found the right person and then you're just trying to get them to qualify what they're looking for. So that you can say those things is that kind of. What you do? I really want to get to the heart of that. How do you deal with competition, basically? Yeah, how are you going to make your decision on who to hire? Yeah what do you need to know to make a decision to hire someone? OK what do you usually hire based on? And if we're as good as Chris and ally in these calls, you've probably built enough rapport throughout the call that you're the no brainer option at that point, but it's probably best to ask that question anyways, in case there's anything that you didn't bring up during the discussion that they let you know about, like, oh, well, we really want somebody that's local or we really want somebody that specializes in this, and now you're having a different discussion. But I think that would be the question. At least that's what I feel like. Sometimes the question or the answer is price. You know, and then it's like, well. Anyway, I guess you could dig a little bit deeper, I mean, there's obviously more to that. Has that been the case for you? Yeah, I mean, I think that that's always the gut check answer. I mean, that's what they say except for that's probably not the only thing, because if you know, then I guess you could pull a Chris on it and be like, OK, well, if I gave you the lowest price, would that make you feel? Would that make you trust me? I guess. Don't know. Maybe not like that. He'd have more finesse, but you know, well, maybe is this question happening at the end of the call? I don't know why my voice just went up like that. But is this question happening at the end of the call? I just hit puberty. I just hit puberty live on the call. I'm also, I think I'm also anticipating that question or this obstacle, like I know that I'm being pitted against other people, so I'm trying to figure out what. How I'm going to shine, and I think what you're saying is really I should shine in the conversation and the rapport, and if I do all that right, I'm in a different ballpark. Yeah Anna Lee and Chris will tell you. Show, don't tell. So at that point for that question at the end of the sales call, you should. To a degree, have an upper hand. If they say price, then we're way behind the eight ball of not bringing up the price, probably 10 to 15 minutes earlier. But if they do say price. And I think Chris said it on this call and anally backed me up. If this is what you would do. You can say, well, what? When you say price, what does that mean to you? Is what is expensive relative to what the quality relative to it kind of means you didn't qualify the value up front. Yeah yes, sometimes I. It's his dad, it's dad back. Yeah, he was like texting me, right? Are you done? I'm like, no, we're still in the call. Hi, Chris. 3 and 1/2 hour later, I don't know, is it? Is he here or not? Yeah, I'll just say, I appreciate you answering. I appreciate you guys answering my question. I think I'm done. Oh no, you're not done now. Chris is here. You're not done. We're holding you to the fire now. No, no, no, no. Lee, what were you going to say, though? You were going to? You were going to tell her something? Yeah, I was like, totally, Oh my god, talk about it. Yeah, I know the guy was saying, Oh my god, you guys are still here. Yeah Holy cow. I did an hour long podcast. I'm I talk to my wife. I'm like, they're done. They're so done. They cannot still be on. It's not possible. You know it's still on. This is your household. This is your fault. This is like great thing. And I think we're on Clubhouse now in a call with you 3 and 1/2 hour later, you know. OK, blame me. Yeah, OK. I only have a few minutes because I actually have another call and you know, you guys got to put an end to this nonsense at some point. OK, lexi, ask your question to Chris. Yeah, please. Quickly, Yeah. So my question was just has an obstacle like, what if you know you're up against other folks? And so you find that out? How do you position yourself as the best choice. And or do you get to the. Maybe it's about the order that you ask that question, but in your sales pitch script thing that we talked about last week, there wasn't that part in there. And I guess maybe it comes up in the. Is there any reason you wouldn't move forward? Oh yeah, because we're like looking at some other folks, ok? Tell me more about that. Is where that conversation happens? I just want to address or be able to address that? Have that in my arsenal? Yeah OK, you have to prepare for war. You have to prepare for war. Exactly and the war assumes you have competition because you're not so uniquely positioned in the marketplace that you're the only in the whole world, right? I mean, I think what I do is pretty unique, I'm not the only anything period I try to be, I'm working towards that, but I'm not the only OK, even Tesla now is not the only. So what are you going to do? You have to know where you exist relative to your competitors. So this is positioning, this is really positioning and understanding this before you get on, that call is going to arm you with the ammunition that you need to be able to win this battle. So we've gone over this. I think if you dig into old calls, it's called the objection matrix. Search for this and I will give you the overview of it right now. If you can imagine, like three columns, three columns, like one two three, take a piece of paper divided into thirds. You're in the middle and then you're going to create a low cost competitor and and and an expert practitioner. Somebody out there knows more than you and somebody out there is going to be cheaper than you. OK you have to know how they're going to respond to any of the three objections. So it's going to be a grid of nine squares, so tic-tac-toe, right? So three columns and three rows, what are the three objections? You're too expensive. You don't have enough experience. Whatever your third one, I need a guarantee. What will the low price person say? What will the expert practitioners say the one has more experience than you? How are they going to respond to? You have to thread the needle in between those two? Now, I have a lot of practice pitching against much bigger, more established companies and a lower cost to people in a garage kind of competitors. So I know how to thread that needle and there is a way to thread the needle. So we don't want to go into this ill prepared. We should know what the objections are going to be. We should know what the high price more experienced person is going to say, and we also should know what the low cost competitor is going to say. And just outline those are your bookends. They're they're your guide rails so that you can't claim to be cheaper than the cheaper person. You can't claim to have more experience than the person who's got more experience than you. That's the dilemma that you're in. It's called the objection matrix on a different call, if you want, we can go into this and we can go into it quite deeply. OK, so how do you do this? OK, so I've done this many times before. The client, so they don't literally say because real clients, at least the ones that are going to spend six figures with us, they don't ever talk like the way that people on these fictitious role plays. Talk They're much more civil. They're much more professional. And when you ask them a question, they are more thoughtful and contemplative. It's usually the low end bottom trolling solopreneurs that just have no business acumen. That's why they're there in the first place. And so if you constantly run into these people, you need to elevate yourself to be seen by the next tier up or to tears up. OK, so if you're constantly getting these low ballers, these tire kickers, bottom fishers. That's a reflection on you more than it is on them. What is it about your energy, about your marketing, your positioning that's attracting these kinds of people to want to call you? I know it was a joke. I can look through the chat. I can find it somebody like Chris. Thanks so much for taking this call. I don't know if I can afford you. That's how I want all my clients to come. Like, I can't even afford you. Like, I can't believe you're even talking to us right now, and there's exclusivity there scarcity. There is social proof with testimonials and the kinds of clients I've worked with and there's awards, there's all these kinds of things that are shorthand for people to think. I just don't think I can afford you. So even when you're on your way up, you could start to build this. You can build this today. OK in every way in shape that you can do it, you just start building it, energy gets bigger and more credible each and every single time. How do we usually go against these things? Usually what I say is. Something like this, I'm not going to be your cheapest option, and if you want the cheapest option, let's not waste our time. You go with that if it works out for you. You save yourself a bunch of money and actually do me a favor. Give me your contact after you're done so I can hire them to. OK, so that takes care of my low cost competitor. And I usually say somewhere in there that. The person that you're talking is going to be the person that you're working with. You know, I would. I used to do this with a room full of like my creative directors. You have our entire creative team, the most expensive people on this call right now. We're here to help you solve the problem. And we're going to see this through. We're not going to disappear and hand us off to someone else. And if you like that kind of attention. Consider us, if not, choose whoever you want. So I'm simultaneously taking care of I'm not going to be your cheap option, but what you hire is what you get. Big teams have professional salespeople and creative directors to pitch and then as soon as the work lands, they just disappear. It's how they do it. They put their best pitch people up front and analyst nodding. She knows this. It's called the bait and switch, and you could literally refer to it. You can say there's no bait and switch here with us. I is the owner, and I am going to be working with you on this project until it delivers. In fact, here's my phone number. Call me later day. You know, I read this article in GQ magazine about some of the best restaurants in the world like Michelin star, you know, all that kind of stuff. And what this, the writer wrote about was he was eating a meal. They generally, like, discourage anybody talking on the phone while they're having their meal. But he was like 3/4 done with this meal and he had to use the bathroom. So he gets up and goes to the bathroom. When he comes out, the chef or the waiter has cleared the table and the chef was reading the cooking the dish again for him. And like, I've never been that kind of restaurant before. Well, just because I go to the bathroom, they're going to make you a new plate because that's the exacting standards that they apply. And that's why they have a Michelin star. Think about the kind of service that you can provide or that feeling that you can give to someone when they hire you. The big companies cannot do that. They're not interested in that, they're arrogant. They're busy. They're a factory, you're not that. Does that help you? That's great. OK, so if you keep using this framework. And this mindset. Think about it. You're preparing your argument ahead of time. So you know exactly that, that line that you're going to walk. There will always be someone who's a bigger, badder version of you. And there will always be for sure, without a shadow of a doubt. Low cost competitors who are going to undercut you every single time. Totally I love this arsenal idea. Yeah, go into the battle armed with what it is that you need to say so that how to defeat them and always assume you have competitors. Lance, you want to say something? I have a. So what would the next step of? Let's say you have nothing to prove or back you up, but you have the understanding the confidence in the level of what you could produce, but you have nothing to do with it. Do you invest in yourself and take those lower jobs to have that resume? And then once you've got like a level, just go right now, no more. We're done. I have the proof, I have my quality of my content. Next level, I'm going to give you two answers and you can apply them both, ok? Number one, you'll notice almost always. In my role plays, I almost never said anything about myself. I don't give case studies, I don't tell stories. I just ask lots and lots of questions about the other person what they're trying to do. And then you could see other people ask lots and lots of questions. Then you're like, why doesn't it feel right? Why doesn't it feel the same? Because they're asking dumb questions. There are such there's such a thing as dumb questions and you see it in role plays all the time. They're asking questions that aren't driving to like getting cleared. They're not asking questions to get to the problem, you'll notice some people wander on, it's like, Oh my gosh, are we ever going to find out the real problem or are you helping the clients to think through their problem? OK, so you can ask those kinds of questions. You'll see time and time again. I rarely ever talk about myself, even when they force me to talk about myself, I'm going to find another way to give them what they want, because in my mind, I'm thinking, what do they want to know by asking this question? And I'm going to ask more and get to know that. That's how we set our mind at ease now, if you say tomorrow, I'm doing like 3D stereoscopic cinematography, you've never done that. OK, so you've made a claim. The next step is for you to acquire the skills to fill the gap so that you close where you are to where you want to be. You have to make that investment. So you can do it on your own. You could hire experts, you can take courses and workshops. You can offer to do it for someone as value add and not charge them any money, but you have to acquire those skills. The reason why I know the questions to ask and the things that I know what to say is because I put in that time already. And I continue to put in that time all the time. Right, clients are going to hire the least risky option, so you need to be the least risky option. And so, yeah, do that collaborations help out a lot, too. So if we have to develop an app which we've had to do before we just start making phone calls and we call the best web app developer we can find, we ask them a ton of questions how do you do this? What's a win for you? Where does this break? What kind of questions should we be asking? What are the things you need to know in order for you to figure out if this is a good fit for you? In fact, can you be on the call and we're going a call on you. So that you can ask those kinds of questions. And you become real smart about that? OK, Lance. You could do that, too. So partnerships and teamwork. OK, I have to run. I'm sorry. I'm sure this call will go on for six more hours. Yeah, no, no, it will not. At some point, you might want to hit Stop on the recording because we're going to get a 10 gigabyte file here. And we won't be able to upload it. OK oh, all right. I got to run. I want to follow up with you because I think we need to do more of this. I just got off to a slow start with some technical issues, and so we're going to get back into it next time. A few announcements and we're going to keep doing this because I need to train you to close the few opportunities you have. If you get four or two or one, you need to close higher ratio. And I'm going to help you. OK, so I'm committed to doing this. Yes yeah, if you are your host again, so you can stop the recording, oh, I could stop. Yes yeah, I stopped.