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Ask Me Anything: Pricing

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171
TheFutur
Published
August 18, 2021

Chris Do breaks down PRO ACT, and the acronym you need to know.

Read Transcript
OK and I'm going to make you my co-host, are you are you alive? Are you awake? So here we go. My co-host? Yes, you're nodding. So help me admit some folks. OK, this morning. OK, first of all, guys, welcome to the PM. Call the pro group and I don't have any agenda. Whoops! rags, I did hear that. Let me hit mute. This is the PM version of our call, and you'll notice a couple of things if you're joining us for the very first time, for the very first time. It is a lot more chill, relaxed vibes. It's one is because it's just fewer people involved and it's the end of a long day for me. Some my energy is different too, and people notice that. So just letting you guys know we'll do introductions when this call is over. We're going to go for an hour here and I had mentioned earlier, it's open agenda. You can ask me anything. And I thought, though, I'd give it some shape and direction in case people are not sure what they want to ask and only mention that there's a lot of people still kind of trying to figure out pricing, dealing with clients in terms of money, any kind of money related things. We talked about price anchoring, price bracketing, price decoys, providing multiple options for pricing, value based pricing, hourly project based pricing, anything with word p in it that sounds like pricing I can happy to share. I have a lot of expertise in this area. Having run a business for a number of years, OK with that. What we do is we're going to ask you just to think for a second. Formulate your question. And then when I prompt you go ahead and raise your digital hand that way, we can keep track of who's raise their hands first. OK I'm telling you just to think for a minute because it's not a race to hit your hand on the buzzer. I think some people just take a little bit longer to formulate their questions. I would really love to jump in with you and solve some of your financial problems. And if I can on this call, then I feel like I've done a good job. All right, but again, that's just a suggestion. It is open agenda. all right now, go ahead, raise your digital hand. Oh, marcello, beat me to it. A few other people. Go ahead and do it. And then we'll get into it. All right, here we go. So should I just jump in? Yeah absolutely. So this is actually related. I don't know if it's strictly related to pricing struggle, but I've been dealing a little bit with the sales pipeline pricing kind of thing, realizing that some deals take longer months and weeks, sometimes to close. And trying to stick to the principle of making sure that I am covering the pricing of myself with my team and the overhead and everything else, I'm beginning always to get a little wave of. Maybe I should take this smaller projects and find another way to work around them, so my company kind of like just got a little bit bigger than what it was we used to be for and now we are at 14 in a matter of a couple of weeks. So I do think I have the team to work with it, but I also need to try to keep them Fed. And I'm struggling a little bit on that. Should I take something smaller and doesn't fit my minimum level engagement, but it will compound. I am expecting right that it may compound. So what would be your recommendation there? OK so Marcelo and everybody else, I just want to ask you to help me questions. As you know, it's the formation of how we learn and how we process things. So the questions. Tell us where to dig. It's like a treasure map. The question tells me where to dig without the question. I'm wandering around in the forest looking for something. I don't know what it is and then eventually come around to a question. I'm like, where am I in the woods? I've already lost my bearings. So everybody does this, and I don't blame you. I'm just saying that the background story is helpful, but only after you ask the question. Once I start digging, I'm like, oh, what are we looking for? Oh, OK, stop there. OK, I got you. So when you say, what should I do? That's the question. I don't know what should I do. So let's try one more time and ask the question just who, what, when, where, why, what? All right, so start there and let me hear your question, please. So my question is, should I compromise my minimum level engagement? Hoping that I will get more leads closer to the minimum level engagement or stick to my guns and instinct of continuing the path. OK, I like this. That's a very well formed question because you've given me some context, you're using very specific language and you're also presenting me two options. So does everybody hear this so far? So we're just take a minute to understand. Marcelo is asking us. He feels like his minimum of level engagement is here, but because he has some pressure, financial pressure, just keep the shop busy and people Fed because he's grown really quick in a very short period of time that he knows it's going to be less than smelly. But is that a good strategy relative to like, stand your ground and wait for something better to come along? It's a classic question. Now, I think you guys have heard me talk about this before, and if you're in the business boot camp, I literally just talked about this the other day. Anybody here in the business boot camp raise your hand and attend to the call. Mahi, you were there, right? Were you there for the pro acting? No, I wasn't. OK, David Coe was yes, for sure, I see him now. Yes so I want to help you guys figure out how to answer your own questions. Can we do that? Can I have your permission to teach you how to figure out your own questions? Yeah, OK. Most of the times people ask me a question and there is an alternative. Right and then I don't know how to answer it, because, well, should I jump off this building? No oh, but I'm on fire. Yes you know, so we kind of have to look at the alternative. So there's um, there's an acronym I want to teach you. It's called Pro Act Pro Act. And so everybody, I want you to write this word down pro act, right? Get a piece of paper. Write Pro Act. OK I'll give you guys a second to grab whatever kind of instrument that you want to use, right? Just you know, look at me, eyes, eyes, the camera, when you're ready that way, I'll know you're ready. Ok? all right. I see you too, man. The De Niro thing, ok? It looks like almost everybody is ready, so everybody wrote down the word Pro Act and just write them all cap letters if you want. OK, now I want you to circle or underline or boxing the word pro like this is the future pro group, right? So let's just box that in and then draw some arrows to that. Just a little arrows just pointing to pro. So the question usually is masking a deeper motivation, and that's the problem. That's what pro stands for problem, pro problem. OK, everybody remember that problem. There would be a quiz later. I'm just kidding. OK, so pro problem. So what's the problem? I can only answer this question, and you can only answer this question once you understand what the true problem is. We had to dig one layer deeper. All right. Marcelo needs help making a decision, what's the problem? The problem is, is there a financial necessity that we have yet to understand? That's driving this to begin with, because if he has six months of runway, what's the problem? He has a tax problem, maybe, but he doesn't have a financial pressure problem. And you might say then he has a greed problem because he has six months of runway. He still wants to make more money. This guy's out of control, you know, who knows? So I need to know first. Financially, do you do you have no other choice but to take this work? Marcello, so. I do have around two months of runway. OK, that's not for me to take action. Well, you have to then let people go. Probably if I don't accommodate that. Yes, so we like to have one quarter, three months to six months of runway because it just gives us breathing space, gives us courage to act right? And so before I finish what Pro Act stands for, I'm going to tell you another thing I want you to draw this formula to. I want you to write the letter c, as in cowboy or cows equals o over C a so C equals all divided by CAA. OK the C equals confidence. The O stands for opportunity and the CAA stands for. Capacity the greater the number of opportunities relative to the low capacity. Equals to your greater confidence, so if you have four jobs to look at, but you will, you can only deal with two. If you have a score of 2 confidence, so when you have 10 opportunities to look at your one man band, one woman, one person band, then you have a score of 10 for confidence. But if you have very few opportunities, you have massive capacity. Then you have one fifth confidence. So right now, I know your capacity is like, it's not 14, but it's a lot. So David Baker advises whatever you do because we can't manifest opportunity just because we want a new job to appear. We know that right. Everybody understand that concept. Then therefore you must lower capacity. And I don't love to tell you to scale back your team, but you went from four to 14, that's massive, massive growth. You may have overbuilt really fast, so if you can start looking at maybe one or two people that you are like, you know, I could live without this person, and you'll find that the team can absorb the work and run a slightly more efficient capacity. There's just a little fat on the bone. You just need to trim it off. And generally speaking, when your team starts to expand like that every once in a while you have to just take that knife and just trim a little bit off. OK, it's not taking a hacksaw, I'll just trim a little bit of the fat off because what happens if you're not careful is a lot of fat builds up and then people start 2 under produce for you. So we understand that. So right now, he's not in dire situation, so there's no need to panic. We just want to extend. The runway, so that's our goal. So that's the problem, we want to get our runway to be three to six months. OK, now we understand the problem, now we can ask ourselves, what solutions solve that problem? Because that's what the real question is. The question is, I'm looking for a solution friend, right? So Pro Act pro is the problem. We all want to find the real problem. We have some understanding of it now. A stands for the alternatives. Alternatives is another word for solutions. This is the problem. What are the alternatives? And we're going to look at several options. One is to accept work that's lower than a minimum level of engagement. Two is stand your ground. 3 is to go and develop more leads to get better deal flow going. Right I mean, if I told you right now, if you let go of three people and your staff and you could hire a crackerjack content marketing specialist or a salesperson. To generate way more leads for you, that's an option. So sometimes we limit our thinking to what we can see in front of us because there's a fire, we want to put it out and then we get locked into what the alternatives are when they're actually many alternatives. One of the alternatives we just talked about, and you probably need to make a list of all the possible solutions is to trim the team to swap them out for somebody else who can help you generate leads to go ahead and take the gig for less money or to stand your ground or to go and do sales calls yourself. And there's one more option, which is to try to bargain with the clients who are offering you less money than you want to make. OK, now C stands for consequence, each one of these alternatives has a consequence. So we need to measure it this way. And T stands for trade offs, so each alternative, each solution has a consequence. And a trade off. And you could devise some arbitrary system of measuring like, OK, the consequence score is 10, but the trade off is this. And another way of doing this is to take each of your solutions and to put it on the impact effort graph. Like if I let these people go, it'll hurt me emotionally. But the consequence or effort, I'm sorry. The impact will be I'll have a lot less financial pressure going on. So that's how we look at all our solutions that we pick the easiest things to do that have the greatest impact. So everybody get it, pro act, PR pro problem pro problem act, the a is alternatives CS for consequence and trade off. OK so you're looking at each answer with a. Pro and con and you're measuring it. Now, of all the options that we mentioned, Marcelo. Probably six more than you had thought about originally. Which one sounds most appealing to you, and then I'll tell you how to do it? I'm actually I started mapping the concept of overbuilding, right, because it's true. There were talks with some, some different people in different areas that they were I was planning them to import them on Q1, but everything changed, so I brought them in. So overbuilt is one of the things and swapping them. Actually, it's an interesting since we are a very cool company with the holographic model. Maybe some of these people can refocus themselves to work on some other area and bring more and more business in and expand their talents that they have. Or, yes, swap them. Kind of like when you go out for a little while. And I'm going to bring in someone that brings the leads, at least during Q4, so I can get you back in when we were originally planning. Do you want? That's right, we jumped the gun. One of the great traits of leadership. It's the Raise Your hand, it says, I made a mistake. This is not your fault, it's mine. I thought a ton of work was going to come in and I jumped the gun still really like, you still really appreciate you and thank you for your contribution, but I got to let you go for the time being. Hoping very much so to bring you back in really, really soon. Yeah, I think that's the one that resonates with me the most. All right. Can you do that? Yes, I will definitely need to plan out how to roll it out in terms of timeline. But I remember also somewhere, some maybe in a video of you saying sooner rather than later, it's not going to get easier with time. Yeah Yep. Sooner than later and have that tough conversation, and I wish you the best of luck, I know you could do this. OK, thank you. Thank you, man. All right, you're very welcome. Now, now that we've seen that, I want you, everybody that's in the queue from Adam eco, Nathan and Chris Franklin. I want you to write down what your problem is. Don't tell me the problem, just said, just write down what you think the problem is. And it might have to just take a step back and a step back until you're like, oh, that's the problem. And if you guys can master the skill, you could do this live with your clients and you'll impress them. Like, whoa, should I pay you all this money for this logo? Well, let's step back. What's the problem? Because it sounds like the logo is the solution to a problem, and I haven't heard the problem yet, so let's chat and all of a sudden you start working in the capacity of facilitator. And you're going to explore this with your clients. Not for them. So what's the problem and then what are the alternatives, because it has to be at least two choices, otherwise the answer is Yes. Right and if all of a sudden you have your own answer, and you could then now with your hands still raised, you could say, Chris. I think this is the solution based on these factors. Am I thinking clearly and then I'll just say Yes or no? And what a wonderful world it would be if in this one pro PM call everybody in attendance, all 29 of you walked away was like, wow, I could solve all my own problems. How amazing is that? That'd be really cool. OK OK, roxy, you're still so far away, so far away. I can't even see you. I thought, you're wearing a Halloween costume. She's a Jedi. I am, I'm waking up. OK it's so early, I guess it is 11:00 PM your time, it'll be a little more friendly for us. OK OK, we can look into really late calls. OK Adam Jones. Oh, Yeah. So I love everything you just talked about because it all makes a lot of sense. Thank you. Mine mine is a little bit more of a time question of when do you let an anchor client go? We we've had an anchor client for about nine years, actually. And we this year alone, we've basically tripled that account size in terms of revenue for us. That being said, none of no one on my team likes servicing the client anymore. OK OK, hold on. Let me ask you, Frank. First of all, you did a great job, by the way, Adam, you if I had a star, I would just give it to you right now. You just came in with a question. When do I let an anchor client go? I was like, right to it. He's already made a decision. The why I go like this is I want to make sure we're using the same terminology when you say anchor client. What does that mean? Ah, yes, so for until about the last two years, this guy has been probably about 70% of our revenue for the last nine years. So without him, I wouldn't have been able to leave my full time work before this. I wouldn't have been able to do anything, really. OK, so you're saying, can we use different adjectives to describe anchor so that we all? This is very important because we all have different cultural references and different contexts to understand the word anchor, and we're all also walking with our own bias of our own life experience. So there's these filters that we're looking at it. So it would help me and I'm doing this a little bit more worked out than I normally would. Just so everybody can see how my mind works. And so how maybe we're all learning with one another here, so use a couple of different adjectives. Besides the word anchor. Of long term high revenue, yes, yes, yes, yes, that's exactly where I wanted to go. Long term, high revenue, keep going. Give me two or three more, if you can. Oh exceedingly difficult used car salesman. OK exceedingly difficult. OK we use only non judging language? Yes try again. Why are they exceedingly difficult, because that's a judgment, right? Yeah, and it's not accurate to what it is. Changes mind often. Why are they difficult? Yeah expects high service. Well, why are they so difficult? Yeah, yeah, so I think. I'm trying to say, oh, sorry, it's OK, take your time. This is the cool part about the PM call. We got time. I think they expect the highest quality at the drop of a hat. OK and and so that is high Cirrus, high expediency. Yes so we can say a quick turnaround. Mm-hmm OK, we'll say a quick turnaround and we can say high expectations. Mm-hmm OK and you could even say that that's judging, but not too bad. So this is very good. Ok? are there any other adjectives you'd like to use with them? No, I think that's about it. And that's what I'm having trouble not being judging. What's that? Right, right. I know we all do. So it's OK. Are they is he or she very direct? No, no, no. Like in terms of what they want? Yes, but the rest of the conversation? No OK, so what else is there if they tell you exactly what they want? A lot of it has been. Oh, I it. It feels like they're trying to schmooze you into a win win, but there's a lot of negotiation techniques that they tried to use. Oh, leverage leverage city heavily. OK, so could we say sophisticated negotiator? Yes see, we could say it without saying nasty things, right? I'm starting to get an understanding of this. OK, now I want to share with everybody what's happening here. I think I want to let go of this anchor client. And without it is this is a rhetorical question, but when I say anchor to you, what comes to your mind? It's a positive. Is it negative? Is it empowering or is it holding you back? So we're already kind of just prejudging the entire question to begin with, right in our mind. So when we say anchor, I think of a boat holding me down when some people talk about their marriages, it's like the old ankle anchor around my leg here, I'm going to drown with this person, right? That's what we think of, you know, very rarely it was like somebody saying, anchor client, they really are stable. You know, when we talk about retail stores, the anchor store is really important. Yeah it holds everything together. So there's a duality here. But I just wanted to make sure one thing that I would like for you all to practice is to use non judging, do not assign value to your observation to be a better observer of things. To be objective and neutral when you look at things, because it'll help you make better decisions. Ok? watch what happens here. I'm not to tell you what to do just yet. What or when do I let? A long term high revenue. Hi expectation, quick turnaround, sophisticated negotiation, client go. That's also very loyal. And has been instrumental in my growth. All of a sudden, they're not so bad. All of a sudden, maybe we got a little complacent. Maybe we got we take each other for granted a little bit. And this happens any long term relationship, you're going to take each other for granted. OK, now. It's undeniable that they account for large portions of your Billings. And some of your team might want to kill themselves. And get that. Let's look at the alternatives, what solutions do we have? So let's write down, let's, you know, like one to five, what are your options are? OK, are you ready and just tell me rapid fire one, what are you going to do? What's option number one? Oh, I'd be downsizing a couple of people into part time. We don't know. You want to? One option to deal with this? Now we'll use the word typical client is to do what one option is what you already said it the first to just let it go. Let's just use the word you're going to fire your client. Great Yeah. Buyer client. What's option two? I tried to renegotiate. Renegotiate what? I would say boundaries of ours and expectations. OK, so let's talk, establish boundaries. OK, what else? Um, I need you to come up with five, see. I want to exhaust the solutions, the alternatives. Yeah, so we could hire another person to try and make sure that service is on top. Yeah you hire a whole new team and you tell them I have a really high maintenance, high value client. Are you tough enough? You know, and if they're a man, are you man enough? Yeah and when they say, yes, you're a good luck and everybody laughs behind their back, I mean, that happens, right? Yeah signed up for it. I'm going to drop you in the war zone and you're like, no, I'm battle tested. I'm battle tested. I'm ready to go. Yeah, fantastic. I'll throw you in the war. OK, what are two other options ones to outsource more of the service items or things that we do? Right so you can outsource. So you can either in source by hiring people to deal with them or you can just outsource it and PM it from afar. Yeah, yeah, right. OK, so we have a pain point here. It's like it's like it's sweet candy. We like the candy, but we're going to get cavities, so we have a problem. So we just need some solutions, right? So is there another solution? Let's put on our green hat, what's the opportunity here? I mean, there's always to try and upsell them into more or into the strategy end of things. Yes now I'll talk to you about that, ok? So you can sell them something new. Exactly well done. Done see, we came in here like I'm going to fire him when tomorrow, so if you box yourself into that kind of thing, there's no other options. It's like, do I kill it or do I kill it? OK, we're going to kill it. Sometimes with clients like this. That are a pain in the butt for you and your team. Sometimes it just takes an account manager, an account director, to work with them. OK. And since money doesn't seem to be a huge issue, you could say when we're working, we're doing a lot of work with you. I think I have a way for us to save money. Long term, it would mean installing an account executive director at your office to help us PM and gather what you need and to organize it with you internally and to put on a schedule, right? And they can work at your office or work for you really three days a week and then interface with us two days a week. OK. Right, because that's just one solution. Yeah, and at this stage, we want to keep all the solutions on the table before we decide what to do. So everybody, let's review. Option number one file client. Then it's just a question of how quickly you want to fire them. And I'll tell you how. To is, we could have an adult conversation with a great client and try to remedy the things that aren't good for both of us. We would need to establish some boundaries. Three we just swallow it all and say, you know what? It's really good money and men for replacing this guy. It's going to be very, very difficult. Let's just hire a new team and tell them what to expect and just push them in their. Option number 4 is to do exactly that, but just shove it offshore and let them deal with it. Number 5 is to provide some kind of crazy out of the box thinking just I'm freestyling here, Mr or Mrs. Client. I was thinking with something like this interest you. Oh, my god, we never thought about it that way, Adam. Mm-hmm That's a fantastic idea. I like the way you think. And then you go on to triple your Billings. OK of all those options, which option resonates with you the most? Ability, the project manager thing that you mentioned is probably what resonates the most and/or the firing because we've already done for the five. You have. Uh, yeah, so we've I have added new team members to specifically work with the client to try and make stuff happen faster. I have outsourced SEO to highlight and will Zach has been on some of those calls with the client as well. Yeah, we've tried to go the strategy route a little bit, but they've just kind of said they don't care. OK so some of those solutions are kind of treating the symptom and not the problem. Mm-hmm So here's what we know then. OK, so I would always caveat, yes, you have tried it, but you haven't tried it my way. But then you tried it. That's fine. Now I'll say this. If I were talking to the client, I'm going to just tell you how to talk to the client. OK, and then I'm going to move on. All right. I would. I would try this. And then you tell me if you've already said it like the way I'm saying it. What's your client's name? You can make up a name. Thomas Thomas Thomas. It's been an absolute pleasure doing work with you all these years. And you know what? We would not be where we're at today without you. We've noticed that over time. I'm speaking for myself. We've come to take you for granted, and you've been a big, big financial influence on how we make decisions. And at times I felt compelled to say Yes to everything you've asked me to do. And we've just developed a pattern of behavior that is not sustainable for me or my team. And we tried many things, including hiring new team, outsourcing some of the work. But it's still the way that you ask for things being done on a certain timeline. It's just not something that's conducive to doing good work or to my mental health. Here's what I'd like to propose to you if you're open to this, and I just want to remind you, of course. The nuclear option is always available and that we shake hands. We thank each other, I could buy you a nice steak dinner and we say goodbye. That's the nuclear option, obviously, but I'm trying to avoid that. Thomas but I think if we can get a little help from you in managing the timelines and expectations. Because I feel like and this is just my feeling. That we know when projects need to get done, but they don't get to us in a timely manner such that by the time it reaches our desk, we have so little time to really react and respond to it. And I hate working this way because it puts me behind the eight ball and we make decisions not truly understanding what the real problems are. So my suggestion and this is a wild idea, Thomas, is that we install in some capacity a account person project manager on your side to help wrangle these things before they become a problem of great urgency. And if we can do that, we can continue to service you and probably even find more innovative solutions for you. There will be a financial hit to you up front, but I think in the long term you'll see that things run smoother and that you get more done. And there will be less stress for you and for me. Are you open to this idea or are we going with the nuclear option, thomas? And seen no, OK, now, thank you, thank you, thank you. It's the sound of 1,000 birds clapping. OK, Adam, how does that sound to you? No, I like that. I like how you circled it back and brought it back in. I'll have to research the nuances of that account manager type thing because, yeah, I haven't thought about it. All right. I haven't. I wouldn't even research it that deeply. I would just kind ask the team if we have to hire a project manager, coordinator, account person to deal with them on their end because they basically work for the client. Right? what does that cost us? You can even have a ballpark figure. You don't have to have the full bulletproof plan ready to go, you just need to kind of have some answers, right? Mm-hmm Like how might this work? How how much might somebody like this cost? Right because if they're open to the idea, you're like, you know what? Fantastic I love this. I'm glad we could rescue this relationship because I want to work for you for another nine years. Right, and see you grow, and this is fantastic, so let me make a few phone calls because it's going to cost between x and x, and we think it kind of work like this and I owe you that. And if you give them that number, like, yeah, somewhere around, there's going to work for us, then you could hire and you could vet and you could do all that stuff, but don't do all the work up front. Get some kind of conceptual buy in first before you do that. Awesome, thank you. You're very welcome. So what we'll do is when this call is posted, you may want to get the transcription. Just go through that. Let's work it out a little bit, right? I just gave you $1,000 worth of coaching right there, ok? That's what I do on a one on one level. OK, so there you go. All right. Appreciate it all. Let's move on to eco. It's an eco or ISO. Eco, eco, eco. What's right? Can you hear me? Yes cool and clear. Awesome So my problem basically is how do I get my clients because I'm in two different niches? How do I get my client from a self-employed mindset to a business owner mindset? OK how do I get my client who has a self-employed mindset to a business owner mindset? Yeah so you're drawing a pretty clear distinction. I think I understand what self-employed. I want some clarification on what a business owner mindset means to you. So let's decode and unpack that word. OK all right. What is business owner mindset mean to you? For me, what business owner mindset means is the client is willing to scale. They're willing to develop a team and not just do everything themselves. And actually invest in the business. What else? Aside from that, they're willing to delegate, they're willing to let other people, maybe third parties, help in and help develop them their business more than just. Focusing on letting themselves do everything. Yeah OK. All right. That's what I thought it meant. This one's a little easier for me to tackle ego ready. So do you know what the word agency means? Not not like an advertising agency, but agency and having agency over your own actions. And your thoughts? It just means control, OK, like you're in charge of you. Right? and a lot of times when we talk to people that like, I'm the victim here, I don't have any control of the situation. That person hit my car. Vatican control or that client won't sign the check, so we're not moving forward, I don't I don't have any control. And the reason why I bring this up is having agency over ourselves. It's just a daily struggle to say that I'm going to be 100% accountable for all my actions and thoughts. I'm the cause of this right? So when you ask me, how can I get somebody else to do something? That's a nearly impossible task. Because if I had that kind of power, I'm telling you this call would not be, you know, it's not $150 a month, it's going to be $150,000 a month because I could just magically transform of you to whatever it is I want. I do not have that kind of power. So usually people are generally stuck. In their own space, the only agency that you have, my friend, is to choose to work with other people. Because I don't have that kind of hypnotic power that I could even do to you that then you could do to your client, right? And now a while ago, I would say like four, 40 years ago, maybe, maybe a little longer. I met a client. I drove out to her office in Segundo and it was the owner operator business, and they did about $70 million of business a year. We talked to our team was very excited to work with us brand strategy, yeah, we need a lot of help. Yes owners are ready to let go and owners stuck in the past, and owners have been running this business for a really long time, is it not changing with the times? We sat down and talked to owner. He asked some really old fashioned questions and nothing ever came out of that. And I went back to my office and told my team when we deal with client direct, if they don't do more than $100 million a year, I don't want to talk to them because why they still have a small business mindset. They want to sell off in the sunset, they want to work three hours a day. They want to get on their boat or and settle back in their seven bedroom house, four car garage situation. They don't want to take over the world. I just can't help those people. Every dollar, every decision has to be made by them. And this is at a $70 million thing with a Big Building and everything with dozens of employees. Right so equal. I don't I don't have a great answer for you, except for to tell you you can't make people do things. you know, the best thing that you could probably do is to give them a book about leadership, delegation or entrepreneurship and hope. One day they'll change their mind. Right that's but that's the reason a one person operation because they see themselves as a one person operation, and they're not quite ready for that today. Maybe they'll go to some business mastery power mine group and then they'll change, but. It's got to come from within. Yeah OK. Yeah, it's like me trying to yell at some of you guys like you must work out, work out now, it's like, well, no. You work out. OK see it just until you're ready. Nothing could happen. All right, so my suggestion for you is to try to write down a list of traits. Of business owners and leaders that you most connect with. Business philosophy. Ethics those kinds of things. Sorry, motorcycle gangs, Chris, by my house. That's your turn on, Chris, right now. There I turn it on. Can you guys hear? OK let's go. Thank you, go. All right. I have a great answer for you. Let's move on to Nathan. All right, testing, can you hear me? Yep, loud and clear. OK forgive the wording in this question because maybe I'm not phrasing it right, but I guess I'll say like this. After you provide a larger service to your client, how do you provide ongoing support when you don't want to do some of the smaller, tedious task? Mm-hmm So I think it's similar to the which you mentioned the atom, but it's a little different. Mm-hmm What's the big task that you did? A lot of times the work I do will be strategy or a digital marketing strategy and building a website, so I build a website, lay out the strategy. Mm-hmm And they may come back with, hey, it's e-commerce, can you help us with adding products? Yup hey, can you really comment? Yeah so OK, this makes a lot of sense, Nathan, you did a great job asking the question I won't split hairs and helping you to frame the question. I think I understood it. I understand it very clearly. OK so Nathan is. Got the big thing excites him. Solid maintenance stuff that bugs him. That's what it's called. It's called maintenance. And when you do a website, you should look forward to that. And if you don't, then we should design it from the get go that you don't do that kind of work. Now, most of the times people don't like doing maintenance work is because it's like little drip, drip, drip and not a lot of money. And it interrupts your whole flow, right? This is when probably the best time to Institute the retainer where OK. You know what, the amount of work you're talking about. It's like $3,000 a month. Give or take. And if you can pay a cent and it's this kind of work, I can hire a person and basically all the work, all the free time that they have after they complete these tasks are yours to recoup, right? Now you can look like that, Nathan. So if you only use somebody two days a week, so the other three days of profit for you because you can put them on a task now. I'm going to ask you something if you do do a maintenance retainer for a website. How much money could you get for that? I'm thinking the ratio to what I charge, so what do you think that number is? I could probably get like. Depending on what the task are, something between like 10% to 20% of what I charged, which is, oh, give me the number. It can be like. 500 to maybe to 2000. OK it's a pretty big range, I would say 500 is not worth it. It has to be North of 2K for me to even think about it. Because it has to go through your system, someone has to permit, you got to send invoices, 2K is barely even worth it to me, but it's something you could do. So here's how we have to do this. OK, so at the beginning of an engagement, your clients should know in advance how this is going to work. Not just one month from now. Three months, six months, 12 months from now. And the better you can articulate that to them, the more professional you'll see. So your dialogue with them will be something like this at the beginning. It'll be. I really enjoy doing the strategy part, doing the US wireframe, building you an incredible site that reflects all the goals and ambitions that you have. I don't do I don't love doing maintenance work, but maintenance work is necessary for websites because websites are living, breathing things. They're going to be patchett's, they're going to be updates, compliance, security things. We're going to just need to do that, and I'm not even telling you that it's worth as much, but for me to do it, it's going to be about 2K. Per month. And I just want to say that up front, because if this doesn't work for you, then you'll know I will. You have to just do that somewhere else in house house and I'll do it in a little nice little handoff. You know, and I sometimes I even include in the bid, a fee to train the team as a handoff. Do you do that right now? I do provide training, whether it be walking them through creating videos. I've done that too. Yeah do you charge for it? I have charge for that, too. OK charge more. OK no, I don't even know what you charge. I would just tell you right now, I charge more because people, I think, Oh yeah, I have to do that. No, you don't. OK, so you can tell them, just like we were talking about, Adam is option A is you pay me $2,000 a month. I hire a person and they deal with these tasks. And if it becomes too much, we'll charge you more. But I'll let in advance or option B. I just include, in my fee, a training onboarding of whoever it is you want. So if it's too little money and it's to drip, drip, drip, it's annoying, you shouldn't do that. But if it's an e-commerce site, especially, they're making money all the time on the site. So this is not an expense for them. It's an investment. There's no way you can also grow your services by doing what do they call that? Site monitoring or you track the mouse and you look at clicks and all that kind of stuff. Oh, just a user session recording or something like that. Yes and to then give them the report and say, look, we've noticed we're going to do some split testing, a A/B testing. We noticed that when we change the buttons to orange and make them this size and that color, they convert 3% better for you. So does that mean testing was ongoing strategic and alignment? You know, if I mentioned one other habit that tends to happen, because what you're saying is, I think is spot on, what some do is, hey, I don't really do the maintenance. Oh yeah, sure, sure. And maybe they're just trying to save money, I don't know. All right. And then I guess they let it pile up, right? So they may not come on the monthly thing, but then a 1/4 goes by or something. They come back like, OK, how much is it to do all these things? And I'm left with the same thing of when I got to, like, find somebody to come. Do however many of these things are? Yeah, let me try to figure this out. So and I'll be honest, I do feel a bit obligated. Not I'm not obligated because you have to. Well, you have to pay me or I'm not doing it, but obligated in the sense of they already trust me. It's your responsibility. We had a good working relationship. Yeah you know, so yeah, you feel compelled to say Yes. And the reason why it's annoying is because you don't get paid enough. So the way you make that work is you just get paid enough or you don't do it. And that's when you say, you know how you know, Mary, you remember how we had that conversation three months ago. You know, we don't need that. And I told you, I don't do it. And I told you it was going to be at least 2000 bucks a month to do it and you're like, yeah, don't worry about we got it. Well, here we are. And you just do this with a smile. And you just tell them, I like you. I hate doing this, though. And to do this to make it like worthwhile to do, it's going to have to be for $4,500. I know you don't want to do it. No, no, no, we'll do it, Nathan, or no, you're right. It's too much. I'll hire somebody off Craigslist. Great right. I find that it's interesting, it's like I think my business coach told me this, it's like there's no such thing as a problem that no, it's not. It's somebody on the internet. There's no such thing as a problem if you can spend money to solve it. You're annoying your clients call you. Well, just charge enough and money will solve it. That's not a problem to me. You follow Nathan. And also taking I'm taking notes for sure this is true for everybody in this call. Something annoys you. You know, it would be not annoying when they pay you enough money. Right, mark and I were talking earlier today. Mark works for me. He handles a lot of our special projects and events. He's it, Chris. OK, we finally got this company to agree, and they're going to pay you some money to make some posts on your social media account. I'm like, finally, I'm an influencer. This is fantastic. No, they want six post story posts and three things only thing I'm like, oh, that's so annoying. Then he's like, well, they'll pay you 20,000 bucks. I'm like, it's not annoying anymore. See how it just went from annoying to not annoying. I'm trying to stabilize this one time, ok? That's not bad. 2 times charge more. OK, then it's not annoying to me. Because I sit there and think the little bit of aggravation that that's going to cause me, I think I need a, you know, an 8k monitor up here somewhere. And it's exactly that same price, you know what I mean? I'm willing to do it for that. So that's how we do it. OK, Nathan, so when you establish clear boundaries up front, you tell them right up front. I hate doing this part. You're going to say that you don't want to do it and I'm going to agree with you. And the three months are going to call and I'm not going to feel obligated to do it. But I just don't want to do it unless you pay this amount and then you laugh. OK, cool. Nathan really understands his clients. Three months later, you deliver and they call you a. You remember that call the conversation we had in New york? Yes well, I'm sorry. I need you to do the work and I'll pay you the 4,500 bucks, right? Fine I need a new iMac. Blind did that with Hamilton correct or something or something similar, like I wouldn't say with Hamilton, hamilton? Well, he spent $200,000 to do that job, so don't use that as never mentioned. No, I just remember you all saying you're going to manage the site. We're not, you know, something. Yeah, we set it to all our clients. We oversight so that they can update it because a client like that has a lot of updates to do. Right correct. Yeah OK, we good thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, everybody. It's not a problem if you can spend money to solve it, so it's annoying spend more money, it's not a problem anymore. That's how you do it. I think I read that as a tweet from Blair ends. All right, let's keep moving on here. If we are to talk to you, so Chris Franklin, right? Chris, what's up? You get a haircut or something. Why do you look different? See, I'm trying to keep my appearance up now. I'm a YouTube star. I'm kidding. So I have a question for you. What's up? So long story short, I want I am growing as an individual. And I want to outsource work. And what I've been doing currently is as a freelancer myself, I've just been hiring another freelancer to cut my videos. Ok? would it be more effective financially and morale for like in team wise to establish myself as a business and hire that person as an employee or to continue my route as a freelancer and just write that person off as an expense? Ok? good question. Thanks you know, us really well, Chris. You know, where am I going to go with this? I just hate the term freelancer. Absolutely you're not a mercenary. Absolutely that's what a freelancer is. A mercenary comes and does a job. They don't care who they kill. They leave. You are already a business owner. The quicker you accept that description and label of yourself, the better off you are. Freelancers don't hire other freelancers. That's just like that's called like, what is that called ghostwriting? Yeah or ghost editing, you know? No client, I'm going to hire people to help me. Of course, you are. OK the sooner you get over this idea, I would love for you guys to play this game, and this is in the 80s when I used to go to the arcade, you know where Aladdin's castle, amazing place or time zone. You put in the quarters and you play these games? There was a game called root beer Tapper. And there are aisles or bars, and you, as the tap or the tavern keep, would have to fill up mugs of beer or root beer and slide them down so that the customers don't get angry. And if you shoot down one where there's nobody, the glass breaks every time you get a client or a task, you just shoot it down the line. Ed boom, cinematographer, boom, colourist, boom, you just keep sending them down only things that only you can do, you do. And right now, the only thing that you need to do is talk to the client. So how do we do this? Well, if we charge a client $0.50 for a glass of beer and it costs us $0.50 to produce that beer, we're not a very good business person. So this automatically tells you, as a business owner, you have to charge a lot more than what you're paying out to do the work or you will not grow and you're carrying all the risks with none of the reward. OK, so. If you were to take your day with all the things that you do and it looked like a pie. And you carve out that pie assigned to different tasks. And it was just. Chris, what is the biggest slice of pie look like? What is it that's consuming most of your time? Currently, it was either. All right. What is it? Well, it's currently it would either be there's only three components that I do. It's talking to clients, it's shooting and it's finishing the Edit. Those are the only three things that I do at the moment. OK, I'll tell you what this is called. Right, so. When you talk to the client, you're the account director. OK or the CEO, either one is fine. When you're shooting, it's called production. Yep. OK. People in the industry, that's what we call it. And then editing is called post-production because it sometimes involves more than just editing. So post-meeting after production. That could be animation titling, editing the effects, anything else. That's called post. So there are mainly three roles that you're doing, right? And you can even say account director, CEO, something like that, whatever. So there's only one of those three things you need to do. But if we were to cut this pie up, how big is the production pie percentage wise relative to the pie? Recently, it's been about since editing is about two or three times with the production. I know that. Yeah, it's probably. It's probably a fourth of my time. OK, if that, let's just if that, yeah, let's I'm going to write 20% OK absolutely. Well, how big is the post production pie? Right now, it's like 60% of what I do. That's Allied 70% OK all right. Because you can't tell me you're talking to a clients as long as you're producing the thing, it just doesn't make sense, right? And that's being generous to your time talking to the client. So realistically, you're only talking to a client about 5% of your day because otherwise I need to talk to you about how to talk to clients. OK and so most of your time is probably going into post. So I'm going to recalibrate this. OK, I'm going to say 75% of your time is actually editing. Editing takes forever. I'm doing it right now, actually. So, you know, yeah, and you're three hours ahead of me. it's 1 o'clock in the morning and this guy is telling me at first he was like, you know, 60% I'm like, liar, liar, ok? It's 575 of your time. So that means if we could lose the editing part. Well, if we can just get rid of it, what would that do for you? You fantastic and asked me if I may interject. That's the current path that I'm on. So what I'm doing is I have a person who I have paid for 100% of their time for them to quit their job and for them to be brought on as a full time editor for me. And I'm teaching them how to edit exactly how I do. And they're in transition right now. They're they're just getting started. So I'm hoping by January they can start to finish, do exactly what I do, so I don't have to do the production. But as of right now, I still I just paid them out of an expense. And you're right, I am a bit more than a freelancer, and that was just the dilemma I was going with. Do I continue to just, you know, pay them? It's kind of like an extra salary, but it's just a monthly expense that I pay them for them to handle all of my full time freelancer, right? Get all our terms right. Right they are full time freelancer for you. Basically, they work on an hourly or daily rate. I prefer daily and that way you don't get slammed with 14 hours in a day. Wait a minute. I'm not going to make any money on this job, right? Right and you're teaching them. So you're training them, so you're probably getting a better price because people that are turnkey ready to jump in the seat and edit for you, people are better at it than you cost more money, right? Yes and you want to get to that point really, really soon. So you're going to have a junior editor. They're going to shadow you. You can train them. You can show them templates and everything that you need to do. And you're just going to have to understand this, that they're going to be with you for two to three years and they're going to leave you. They will leave you because they'll outgrow you or you can't afford them anymore. Something like that. And you want people like that. I don't want to hire people that are going to work in the same position forever. That means there's no growth there, I don't want people like that. So just expect basically wants to get good, you got about two years in the clock starts ticking. That means a year end, you need to be training your next junior and you keep growing and then you have three editors working for you at some point. All right. So what's the issue? What's the challenge here, the challenge? Well, the challenge was I want to scale properly as somebody who's going into who's coming from scaling a business, going back and to independently scaling the business, I want to make sure I do this the right way. So I don't want I was just wondering, at the moment, I'm operating as a sole proprietorship, should I? And I know the LLC is just only for the insurance based purposes. So if the process were to bring this person on as an employee, should I do it. And if so, what would be the process, the proper process? OK, you're asking a legal question. I don't want to put my lawyer hat on and I'm going to tell you what to do, but then I'm going to tell you, talk to an attorney after this. You should be where you are in that whole office hours with my attorney. I was not, sadly. That sounds awesome. Just throwing money down the drain right there. OK all right next time there's a lawyer in this. In this group, you get on that call and you ask him this, ok? There's many things that you're dealing with right now. You create an LLC for some legal protection and for some, maybe some. Well, I don't want to get into tax stuff. Ok? all right. Is this person work in your house or office? Yes OK. They're considered an employee. As soon as they start working, showing up and you managing them, regardless of how you want to label them, they're going to be an employee. You need to start factoring this into your expense and your costs, and you're going to have to pay for their state federal tax, maybe health care. This is going to add all kinds of expenses for you. Ok? if they work offsite and work under their own direction, you can still consider them an independent contractor. So then you could just pay them weekly, monthly fees. Now there would be this gray period. We all live in this gray period, but the grace period can't last forever because you'll get hit like we have when the government is looking for their money, they can hit you with back taxes that you owe and saying that you miss classified this person as an independent contractor when, by all intents and purposes, they're your employee. OK we had to deal with this, and I think we paid $70,000 in back taxes because we worked with a lot of independent contractors. But they're like, you can't claim them like that. We got tagged. OK no fun took 2 and 1/2 years to resolve. OK, so, Chris, that's how you're supposed to do it, so you might as well just consider them an employee, withhold some of their state and federal taxes, and you'll have to talk to your bookkeeper or accountant to set this up properly. Ok? you're going to need to talk to somebody that gets paid to do this kind of stuff. Not me. Absolutely OK, now you may ask yourself. How much pain and grief am I inflicting on myself? What if I just hired somebody that was really good, that worked remotely and I can sidestep the training part, the whole facilitating them and taxes? You may want to look into that. OK and I want you to do this anyways. Ask yourself if I were to hire a professional. That works remotely, what would that cost and charge accordingly? So that's always an option for you. That's the business owner mindset that eco wish his client had. Just take the work and send it down the line, keep sending it down the line. What's what's really beautiful with covid? I can't even believe those words came together out of my mouth. One of the beautiful things about COVID is everybody's working remotely right now, which helps to make a case for independent contractors. They use their own equipment. They work when they work. You can't even see them. So it's like, how can I even manage them, right? Then then they start to sound a lot. They use their own equipment, work under their own direction. They figure out when they start and stop. All they do is give you deliverables and you're happy. So that's something else to think about. You could also have a training program, Chris, where they work with you tightly for a while and then they're like, go home, do the work. And that's what I'm hoping to get to with this person. Yeah, like and it's convenient to have a computer behind me to watch and help guide them through it. Because it's such a particular thing when it comes to video editing. But hopefully they can just get out of my house and I can have my space back. But Yeah. OK, awesome. OK all right. One day, I'll teach you and this group how to critique work so that you never have to sit over anybody's shoulders ever again. And remember, I ran a production and post-production company for 23 plus years, so everything you're going through, I've gone through 55 times. All right. Absolutely so I can't help you through this. I mean, then I'm worthless. It's going to be a process. A little bit. A little bit. OK thanks, Chris. Thank you. Mm-hmm All right. Let's move on to Walmart. Oh, my gosh. I'm already over time. So let's end strong, Waldemar. Ask your question and then we'll say Hi to everybody, ok? OK. And if I want to change that, I know we're out of time. Well, just ask your question, that's fine. OK hope. OK how can I create a name for myself in the like? How can I create my name for myself when I didn't, when I didn't study like graphic design, when I'm self, self taught, for example? OK beautiful. I love this question. This is a great question to end this whole call on. OK, I'm going to ask you to just hit mute for a second because I hear a little background chirping noise there. How do I create a name for myself? When I'm self-taught. OK how does this statement make you feel, waldemar? What do you mean? Well, when you ask the question, it's like there's an emotion that's around this. Like, how do you feel about yourself being self-taught? To be honest, sometimes I feel really proud that I managed to learn all this stuff, the stuff that I know and sometimes I feel honestly unqualified sometimes. Imposter syndrome coming. Do you feel embarrassed? No, no, not embarrassed. No, no undeserving. Maybe a little bit, Yeah. OK, I'm looking for an emotion here, right? OK. Do you feel proud? Because I know it's not it's not that easy to maybe understand concepts or even put it out like, for example, when I just learned about strategy, I just bought the core course from you and I just I went from charging like $50 for a logo and maybe identity to 4,000 in a week. And it was amazing. And I just went, oh, that's so good. Yeah, well, yeah, I just I just changed my prices and because I for the first time, I understand the whole process. And yeah, I have structure, so I felt confident. So yeah, that's why I feel proud. OK I would feel proud, too. Good job. Well done. Ok? there's a couple of things here that I need to kind of. Clear the or set the record straight. OK we believe that if we have a degree or we studied something in a formal setting, it gives us credibility and credentials and all that kind of stuff. OK and a lot of us think that so an engineer should go to engineering school, a chef should go to culinary school. A fashion designer should go to the Fashion Institute. We understand that. But what happens when? A fashion designer becomes an architect. Do we think there's something wrong there? Voldemort and everybody here like, what do you think? Well, we hear of like an architect. Doing cool projects, but then we find out that their background was in fashion. How does that make you feel, does it make you feel positive or negative about the person? Um, well, it feels for me it feels positive, but but it's because the way I'm asking is because I don't have. Maybe it's not. It's not that I didn't study at the University or college is because maybe I don't have so much work to show for it, like, oh, or my expertise. I guess. Yeah OK, so your question is, how do I make a name for myself when I don't have a lot of experience doing something? OK we just reframed the question because I think you saw the CheckMate move coming really fast, so you're like, let me change the game. I know you. I could see it. Well, here's the question. If I have 100 examples of doing one thing, you might think of me differently. You might think, you know, Chris is doing pretty good because he's done hundreds of that thing. Right what if I've done 50 of those things? Oh, that's still pretty good. How about 20 five? Well, that's still good. 10 5. 3 1. And then you realize, how do I get to five? I had to do one. How did I get to 10? I had to do five. So it would almost seem illogical that one could get to 100 without doing one. So here's one of the problems. Many of us face, which is we see ourselves in the future, but we're just here today. And the gap between where we are today and where we see ourselves in the future creates emotional pain for us. You see that. Like when you're digging the ditch at the beginning and it's a swimming pool, you're digging, it sucks, but when you're standing at the bottom of the pool having dug that ditch, this is pretty awesome. Every, every kind of push of the shovel. We sit there and think about how far away we are from our goal. Instead of how far we've come from, not even starting. So we're always looking, in my opinion, in this one way in the wrong direction, we're looking towards a future that has yet to happen versus the past, which is the progress we've made. And we use the lens of the future to judge our current self. That sounds terrible. OK Waldemar, I think you're married, right? Do you have any kids yet? OK one day you'll have children, maybe, maybe don't want to make that assumption. If you were to have a child. And they're like, you know, let's just say a little boy a little Waldemar while the more junior runs up to you, daddy. You know. I know it's the first day of little League Baseball. But I'm not as good as a pro baseball player. I mean, what you say, this little kid? Yeah, you're right, junior. You're terrible. How dare you even think about that? You can say, you know what? Let's just take it one day at a time. Just just be here right now. That's why the rush to grow up little guy. It all makes sense. Daddy, I can't get my Black belt. But you're a white belt. There are many steps in between. The first time I did something was the first time I did it, and it's totally OK. So let's look at it from the lens of where we are relative to the progress we've made from the past. See, when you told that story, I saw many smiles in this group. I used to charge $150. And then a week I charged $4000, I was like, whoa, that's incredible progress. And that's the right way to tell that story. Watch this. Chris, I heard that you guys charge $140,000 to strategy one time. I only charge 4,000. I feel terrible. See, it seems so obvious, right? So you use the anchor of the past to frame the present. Don't use the anchor of the future. The frame of the present. Well, yeah, I'm nowhere near the billion person goal. But, you know, we're over 14,000 in the billion count. That's pretty good from 0. I like the progress I've made. OK, so guys, I want to just encourage each and every one of you to be kind to that person inside of you. Give yourself some space, give yourself some room to make some mistakes. There's no rush to get there. And everything is what it is, the way it's supposed to be, and you're exactly where you're supposed to be. I was talking to Dr. Holtzman. I'm getting training, guys, how to be a better teacher. You said something to me the other day, my notebooks, like all full, you know, I can't even find anymore. This is what his dad said to him. And he's like, I love this phrase for my dad. He said I'm happy to be. And this is where I am. Let that sink in. All the more. I am happy to be. And this is where I am. I don't know what's to tell you. You can understand that. If you can live that, if you can believe it, I think you'll do well for yourself. OK I appreciate it, thank you so much. Yeah I was going to use other kind of ninja techniques on you, but I didn't think I needed to. I don't want to tell you this one thing. I went to school for graphic design. I've made my entire career in motion design. But you don't even really know that most of you guys know me as a YouTuber talks about pricing logos. Which I didn't learn from anywhere, except for the School of life. Lots of practice, lots of failure, getting coaching, reading books. And applying these things 1,000 times. One never becomes a pricing expert without doing pricing for the first time. OK all right. OK anybody that's on this call that has yet to introduce themselves now would be a fantastic time for you to introduce yourself. I'm going to hit pause on the recording in case I'm.

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The Win Without Pitching Manifesto Pt.3
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When To Have VBP Conversation
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Responding to RFPs
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When To Discuss Budget
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thefutur.com
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