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Lead Gen, Pricing, Customer Interaction & Feedback

#
130
Matthew Encina
Published
October 9, 2020

How do you attract the right clients? How to raise your prices? And then how to know how they might feel. Because the response that you're getting is that's it expensive.

Read Transcript
Odd all right, we're officially recording this is called 130 four, the future pro group and I am your host this evening. Matthew insana, Chris Delaware is out sick. He's back from all the craziness from Adobe max, but he showed up to the office and he had a heavy cold. So hopefully he feels better. And I'm filling in for him. I know a bunch of you guys have asked some questions on the Facebook group, which is fantastic. Thank you for doing that. But I do see a few new faces. So if this is your first call or if this is just your first call with me, I'd love it. If you come on and just briefly introduce yourself because I would love to say Hello to you. You could just impeach yourself and say hello. Hey, who is that? My name's Emmanuel Ma. It's my first. Yes, hi, it's my first call with you. Hey, How's the volume? Ok? you sound excellent? OK, awesome. Same on this side. Yeah, I'm from Montreal, Canada. I run an interior design and architecture company, and I've been on many protocols, but nothing with you and I'm friends with the guys from ergon office. Oh, since your desk? Yeah, they're very good friends. I actually designed their office here in Montreal. Oh, very cool. You need to send me photos of their space because I've only talked to them on email and just, wow, OK. Not because I did it because it's really awesome. We teamed up. They're they're pretty. They're hardcore aesthetics and it worked out really nicely. Yeah, you have to send me photos. Oh my god, it's not even a question that I'm going to do that for you. Excellent well done. All right. Who else is new or at least new to me where I have? We haven't had the pleasure of being on a call together yet. Um, I'm sorry, I'm from India. Hey, Mohammed, I'm busy. I've been living in Malaysia for years and I run a digital marketing agency in Malaysia since about a year. So that's pretty much about myself, I think. And you had other questions today. Yeah, I have a question today. There are a lot more questions, but if there's time, I would love to ask more. Fantastic so for you what I'd like you to think about because I know you had a bunch of questions, but I want to make sure there's space for everyone. If you could maybe identify the top one question that you do want, answer today. I know they're all a little bit related, but if you think about the list of questions that you had sent me, think about the number one thing that you would like answered today, and then we could focus on that. And I'll bring you back up just in a second. Sure OK. OK I'll think about it and get back to you. Is that fine? Yeah, fantastic. I'll bring you back on. Cool is there anybody else who's new or at least new to me that I have not spoke yet? Hi, my name is Wendell. So I'm calling from Singapore, and I think I've seen you before at Manila graphic of Manila. And yeah, oh, right on. I've run a creative agency production studio, so it's about 22 people. I've been very quiet on the Futurecast group because I'm scared to type. I'm trying to deal with that problem. I will soon. And I think when it happens, it's going to be really bad because it's going to be a lot of questions. But I'm trying to watch all the videos first so that I don't get attacked. Like if I ask something, it's like, watch this video. So I'm like, try to go through all of it. Fantastic well, awesome. Glad that you're here. And I would say, feel free to be selfish with the time. Be selfish with the group and ask because there's tons of smart people here. And usually this is also a way to help sort out your way because I know that the amount of content that we have in the group can be overwhelming if you don't have a guide. So there's people like Mo, there's people like Chris and I who are in the group who are here to help, or people have journeyed probably down similar paths that you have. So if you just ask the question, I'm sure somebody can point you in the right direction. So don't feel bad and just open up and feel free to start asking questions, because that's the quickest way to learn. Absolutely well, nice. Nice thing you and everyone else. Yeah, that's sweet. All right. Anybody, anybody else? Before we jump into this? This is great. On the new faces, I guess I'm kind of new. I joined the pro group just two days ago. I was actually in this morning's call and I recognized some people mole Daniel D and the David. What's up? But for those of you who don't know me, my name is Peter Lamb I live in Vegas and I do strategy for strategy within the gaming and e-sports industry. Yes and Peter has been to many of our in-person events, and we've been talking to each other and he. Peter, you've had the kind of like that same positioning for a while and it's been fantastic to see you grow because I remember when you first introduced yourself, you told me what your concept was, was brand strategy for the sports industry because they need that. And Lo and behold, today we had an opportunity come through the door where they said, oh, we need strategy for esports. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I know the person to call and connected. You can connect all the dots here. So it's crazy. That's crazy, because I just reached out to Peter Lim after I heard that because I'm actually we run a lot of stuff for gaming brands. So we do a lot production work for gaming brands as well. So it's man, it's cool. This world is getting smaller and smaller and more and more connected. I love this. I love this. Just send you an email, Peter. Look at this. The connections. I love it. This group is getting work done tonight. Yeah, no, we haven't even started yet. This is amazing. I'm glad to be here. So, peter, why didn't you join sooner? All right. OK, I'm ready to jump in unless anybody else wants to jump on and say hello. If this is their first call, we could expedite this a little bit because I'd love to get to your guys' questions. Anyone else? All right, let's jump into it, so if this is your first call or if this is your first call with me, we have one hour together here. If you guys have questions, some of you guys have already put it in the prompt in the Facebook group, which is fantastic. It helps me percolate and think about these questions a little bit, and I'll bring each of you on to ask your questions. So that we can address it and talk about it as a group. But if you do come on and you do have a question, my only request is that you start with the question first and then give me context and detail. After that way, I know what to look for and what to listen for as you describe the challenge or the context that you're giving me. Also, I know that for these PM calls, sometimes we miss these things because either Chris's traveling or were busy or something like that. I just wanted to put this out there that not too long ago, the pro group, we only had one call a week. And then I think Chris wanted to make sure that everybody gets a chance to talk to him. So he did open up the PM call. So we ended up doing two calls every week and all of a sudden shoot. Now this is an expectation, and I just want to put that out there that the second call usually is just a favor to you guys so that we have more chances to talk with each other, especially to those in different time zones. We're going to try our best to keep that up, but I want to make sure that expectations are cleared. Nobody's butt hurt if one of these things don't happen, whether it's the AM call or the PM call, but we try our best and we make ourselves available to you, which is why I'm here. Hopefully, you get what you need out of tonight's call. So with that, I'm going to open up to questions. And the first one who jumped on was Mohammed. And I know you had several questions about starting. And maybe if you want to come on now and if you have formed already, the one question you'd like to focus on, we can start there and then just see how the conversation flows. OK is it fine, I ask you a question that I family? Sure I think that was the question I found most important. It was more about how to attract the right kind of clients towards also and how to upgrade our pricing. That is from a lower price to a higher price and how to overcome that fear that, you know, the client. Would you really agree to the price that I quote with the price be too much for him or so and so forth because I have no idea how think the context in regards to this question was basically one of the members of the group eject from Singapore. He had a situation of where we often kind of face a problem about getting leads and prospects and getting them to attract it to our company. And I recently haven't had that much of an issue getting leads, but I've had a lot of issue in regards to the hiring process. After listening to a lot, so I decided I would increase my price. But a lot of. OK the whole thing was they said I was too expensive, so but I as far as I know, I'm in charge the standard industry prices so. Um, I hope. Yeah well, thank you so much for. I mean, one thing I realized is that I mean people, no matter how much you could, they always say they have that reply. It's expensive. So I see it right. OK so thank you so much for asking the question. I will point out that it was a multi-layered question. So I heard three things how to attract the right clients, how to raise your prices. And then how to know how they might feel. Because it seems like most of the response that you're getting is that's too expensive. Ever since you've raised your prices, did that recap that properly? Yep, and then if I were to ask you right now, Mohammed. What value do you bring to your clients like I don't really know what you do, and that's OK, but if you were to summarize it in a sentence, what value do you bring to your clients if I'm a prospect and you've pitched your company to me and you're offering what is it? What value do you bring relative to the cost that you charge? Um, what I try to concentrate on these days is more on branding. So all the services related to branding, I try to pitch that to the client and tell them the pain points that they have in regards to their company, saying that these are the things that you are lacking in regards to your brand. And if you operate in these things, it would be better for you in regards to marketing yourself to your audience. So and even websites, we kind of constitutional websites as well. Well, it's a process, obviously, when somebody gets service and branding, oftentimes they would want a website as well because a lot of them do not have a website. So just to add to that? OK let me pause you right there. So I, I think. You're telling me what you do. I think what I'm more curious about is what value do you bring like if I again, let's pretend like I'm a potential client and we're just talking. What kind of value do you bring to me? Because right now you're telling me a lot of the things that you do, muhammad? That makes sense. I understand what a website is. I think I know what branding is, but what is it? What can you do for my company? If you're going to charge me $10,000 let's say that's your rate. What is it that you're going to do for my company that I'm not doing now? What is it that you can bring to the table that somebody that charges $1,000 can't do for me? that's a tough question. Right, but that is the question that I think you need to answer. Tonight, the A list is who us run into this. It's difficult and not saying that it's easy. I'll put you on the spot right here. And if you ask me, if you ask me, you know, even that is quite challenging for me and sometimes I fumble my way through it, or sometimes it's crystal clear in my head. So I understand that I put you in that corner and I think a lot of us, if you were to. Be asked that question, a lot of us would be like, well, I build websites or I make videos that get views, you know what I mean? Like, what does? But what does that really mean? So the thing with a lot of the content that Chris puts out there, especially relative to pricing, is what value do you bring relative to your price? What value do you create for your client? And the better you can articulate that. The better the price will be well received because it makes total sense. So and it's different for everyone. The thing is value is subjective. Value is very subjective, especially with things like a logo, right? A logo is a visual thing. It's something that everybody uses. But what is the true value of that? And Chris uses a lot of examples in the video as well. It's like, well, what is the risk of getting everything wrong? What if you created this logo and it's misprinted on hundreds of millions worth of product? What if Nike rebranded? And then they found that there was a typo in the thing? It said Nike or something like that, right? Like, what is the cost of that mistake? Well, a really high valued branding agency might make sure that never happens. So the big thing with value, and I'm fumbling my way around this right now, and it's very hard for me to articulate at the moment, but. The more risk you take on for a client, the more you can charge for your services. I think that's all it is. So if you're taking on very little risk like I'm going to move and change around your logo and there's no risk to you, there's no impact in terms of whether it's going to succeed or what's going to happen to their business after the fact. Then you could only charge a small amount. However, if you're taking a lot of risk off of the client's plate and you're ensuring that certain things may or may not happen because of the level of engagement that you have, the responsibilities that you have for something to come to fruition or for something to succeed, that's where you can charge a higher dollar for. Does that make sense, I know I might have been using big words, and it's taken me a while to process that thought, but asking me a question if that was not clear. So hopefully I can clarify it for you. I'm in. Do you mean that I promise clients something saying that he would get? Or a return as such, if he does a bid. If he does upgrade his brand with me, that is I help him upgrade as a brand and he would. How do I see it? He would get so many more customers or he will get more of this kind of income. I mean, is this kind of a thing that you're telling me that I should promise him? Right so so right now we're talking about guarantees, right? It's a desired outcome. And those are two different things. I think what I'm talking about is a desired outcome. So we talk about this a lot on the calls, which is your new client. You're my prospect, Mohammed. If if we were to get this right, if we were to change your website, what would that mean for you? So assuming that there's a goal here, Mohammed. Let me see. But let's start with this, let me back up rewind, so are my brains running 56k today? It's a little bit slow. Mohammed, what's really important to your business right now, it's attracting the right clients, right? Yeah and. Right now, it looks like one way that you might do that is through your website. Would you agree that that's a good place to do that? Definitely and if I could wave my magic wand and we were to get you the right type of clients, what would they look like? What level of engagement would that be? OK. And I mean, it's more of them approaching me and asking me that they want my services. Mm-hmm That's what I would expect. That's what I would want people to approach me more, more of people to approach me. Mm-hmm And they think that I can provide them value, as you mentioned, right? And then what would be a realistic amount of. Leads that you could close a month could be. assuming that we got you the right leads. I mean. From the current kind of price that I quote, I mean, the previous prices I quote, I would say a lot more leads. But if I could actually pitch a higher price, then I would not really look for a lot of leads that I can get in the sense that may be about a 10 from home. Five or six turned out to be clients for the month, ok? Five or six? Cool five or six. Let's just pretend your numbers 10 k, so it sounds like the value of that is 50 to 60,000. A value gained per month, right? Yeah so if I were able to accomplish that for you. What do you think is a good investment to put towards that? The I mean, if it's guaranteed, then I would be ready to put a good. But I'm sorry. I'm sorry you could yeah, you cut out a little bit, what would you say? I mean, if you pay me $2,000 of income for the month, then I would obviously consider putting a lot more in investment. I mean. 10, 15, 10, 10. I'm just I'm just putting numbers out there, sure. No, no. That totally makes sense 10 to 15k. You know, for me to guarantee $60,000 in added revenue to your monthly income, I'd probably have to charge you almost 60,000. And that's because I would have to take on so much responsibility from everything from your website to your sales funnel to maybe even being with you on the calls to be able to close all of these leads. So for me to guarantee that amount, I probably would have to take almost the full amount. But because I can't be there because I can't be in your office and I'm only focused on the part that I can control, which is the website and maybe some of the creative that's on there. We have to discount for uncertainty. So I think actually an investment of around K. Sounds pretty good, but I cannot guarantee those results because I could only control the part that I can control. Yeah so if we were to work together. And I'm able to. Work on your website to help you close better leads and attract better leads. Do you feel like K 10 to 15k is a good investment to move towards this and that we can work together to close the gap here and help you close more clients? Yep if I would, I would think that would be really great. That sounds like a pretty reasonable investment. Great I'll send you an invoice later. Send you the bid later. Right? I totally fumbled that around and I'm glad you freestyle with me. Sorry everyone else for listening to us. Ramble I'm a little rusty right now and my brain is a little clogged. But all it is, I just, I think what I wanted to demonstrate there. Oh, go ahead, go ahead. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. This made it a lot more easier and more understandable of how to have a conversation as such. Thanks for that. Yeah yeah, Mo, has his hand raised. What's that, mo? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now. How do you combat the client feeling like you're just trying to milk them out of their money when you ask them for a budget before you list a price for a deliverable? Oh, sure. Yeah, you can throw it any number. And the thing the thing is, look, you could even just say, I'm not trying to take all your money. I'm only going to take your money. If I can do something good for your company, like I'm prepared to say, no, I'm prepared to walk away from this, and I'm not here to just take your money if I can't genuinely help you. So unless I can genuinely help you. You know, I'll probably say no to this engagement because it's a disservice to you and it's also a waste of my time. So you could just disarm them, you could just say something like that, because, I mean, how does that make you feel? It's like, no, I'm not going to make you spend more money than you have to on this thing. It doesn't make any sense for you. Mohamed, I don't want you to spend K like I'm just asking these are rhetorical questions that I would tell to clients and just say, look, I'm looking out for you. Like, here's one example right now, it's like all of you guys have purchased something from the future, that's why you guys are here in the Pro group. I'm telling you guys right now, if you're considering buying something else, don't buy anything right now. Do not buy anything until Black Friday comes because you're going to save 20% off of our products. Right now, I'm trying to look out for you guys, like, don't buy anything from us. So if you're really considering it, wait till then because you're going to save a ton of money because I'm not here just to take your money. That's that's not my goal. But if there's something that you've been eyeballing and you think it's something that's going to help you wait till then? Ask another question, Mo. It sounds like it's like you're on the tip of something and you want if you want to challenge or if you have a follow up question, go ahead and ask. I don't have AI don't have a challenge. I may be. I think I'm asking on behalf of the group and myself. And if it's not, if it's not conducive, just shut me up. No can you do a role? Can you do a role play with Muhammad in a way where you say the number first before asking him, what's the budget that you would like to spend on this? Because what I've seen happen with me. And this is as I get better in the sales discussion because I'm trying to be a sales ninja. Is that when you say, what would you pay for something like this? They feel that you just want to hear the number from them and you're going to charge them whatever high number they say, right? OK, cool. So let's say if you get that inclination, we don't even have to role play this because we could just really shortcut this like Mohammed. You know, based off of what I know from the scope of this project that we've discussed very briefly right now, projects like this run anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000. Is that within your budget range, or are we way too far apart? And then I wait for the response. Go ahead. I mean, it was the question or it was just, yeah, I meant that would be the question that or that's how I would phrase it with any client if I already have an understanding of what the scope might be. So I'll give you an example. Earlier today, somebody looking for us to do strategy for something called outreach, and I said, you know, for something like this, I don't really know all the details, but our minimum level of engagement is $100,000 for this thing. How does that sound? And then I wait. Actually, I anchored higher, I said $150,000 for us to even consider this. And then. They're like, oh, that's way too far out of our price range. I don't think that we could, we could do this. Our budget actually is 100,000 all in. That's including the creative and all this stuff. It's like, OK, you know, I'm sorry this couldn't work out, but you know, hopefully you find somebody that will help, that could help you out on this thing. That was a week and a half ago. And then what happened a week later, they're like, well. What if we give you guys $100,000 and we remove these things, is that possible for you guys to be involved? But OK, maybe that sounds good. Let's have a call. Let's let's talk about it. So in that process, what I was just trying to do is anchor like what I think it would be with knowing very, very little details because honestly, I don't really want the job, but I'm just throwing something out there just to see if they would scratch at it. And because they did and I tried to kill it, I said, look, we're probably not the right fit. We're too far out of range. No big deal. The key thing here is I don't want the job right. I'm going in there and I don't want the job. So I'm not acting out of desperation. I'm not trying to bend over backwards for this person. But then we can have later, they came back and they said, well, what if we do this, and then we reduce the scope of the budget? Here's what you guys are responsible for, then it makes it more appealing. Now they're negotiating against themselves to make it work for us. So because they really want us now, I'm entertaining the ideas like, OK, well, how small, how little effort can we do and capitalize on the most amount of value that we can capture here while still doing a good job for them? Where is the careful balance here? So I'm just dropping a price Inc or a range, and I'm trying to see how they respond to that. And the key thing is, I don't want the job. Therefore, I'm not acting out of desperation. And I see David has his hand up. And maybe it's related to this thing. So feel free to unmute yourself in and come on. Thank you, good morning. Good evening, everybody. And so what I've experienced is even though I went through the value-based pricing process, it was for consulting work. And let's say, for example, the we worked out that in the next year, I could help them gain $300,000 worth of value. But they felt like $30,000 for the whole project, or 2.5 k per month was too much. Mm-hmm So what would you do in that situation? So 2.5 k And then that's 300k value over a year. Yes, generated OK. And then so what is that math for a month? Because I'm not good with math and, you know, you're a math guy. I pull up in my calculator. So 300 thirty, something like that, is that right there? OK, now. Value generated a month is 25 k, right? 25 k, Yeah. So they're willing to invest. Oh, you're trying to propose that you would create. You would charge 10% of that per month to make that happen. And it was still too much for them because they didn't have the capital to invest. Then it sounds like a job that doesn't fit for you. OK Yeah. So for those things, it's like it makes total sense, it's like, OK, so this is I'm charging you 10% to create this additional value, which is the difference between 2.5 k and 25,000 k. It's very clear to me the value that you bring. That's a lot of value in terms of revenue generated there. So if they can't afford that, which sounds like the very bare minimum, and I'm not sure the scope in which you're taking on this engagement, but it sounds pretty fair to me 10% investment to create that value. So if they're not a good fit, they're not a good fit. I think that's a big thing that a lot of people forget is that you could say no, and the power of no is all up to you like just as a client can tell you, you could tell a client no, as well. And I think with a lot of these calls with prospects, jobs that you don't have that you didn't have yesterday and you might not have tomorrow. The thing is, you can say no and only take it on if it's a good fit, because why take it on? Why try to bend over backwards if it just doesn't make any sense? Because what happens if you walk away, it's like, who else are they going to go to? Are they going to find somebody else that does what you do that can create what you create the way that you do it? I don't think so. I don't think so. You're the Instagram doctor man. People know you. People come to you for that thing. But you know what I mean? It's just like, that's OK. It's like, I hope you find what you're looking for out there. I'll still be here in case you change your mind. When you're ready to invest and grow your company at $25,000 every month, I'm here. OK, man, thank you so much. Yeah is that ok? Is that sufficient? Is that OK to say no? David? yeah, sure. Yeah do you feel good? Would you feel good. If you say no next time? Yes I mean, I usually say no to these projects, but I was thinking like, maybe there is something I'm missing out on, but it's like there isn't. Right yeah, just walk away. Get creative with your structure, though, so it's not a linear 12 months, you know, equal payments, but it's a bigger sum upfront and then you take smaller chunks, you know, for longer engagement. I think there's creative ways to go about it. So they don't feel like, oh, we have to come up with this for 12 months time. You know, just so it makes it a little bit more palatable for them. I think there's lots of ways to do the payments, for sure. That is one way around it. I think David was saying, though, that they do. They were capital challenged, right? So they don't even have the capital, even if they were to pay a chunk upfront. They just don't even have that capital. So it doesn't make sense. It's like, why would they live beyond their means? Why would they spend money they don't have? Actually, that's a good advice to tell them. It's like, you know what? I don't think you should spend this money. If you guys are capital deficient right now, it really doesn't make any sense for your business to be spending extracurricular money on stuff that maybe you don't really need. If you don't need this stuff. Don't spend the money. So you could try And do it in there is could try to kill the engagement and all of these things, another way of saying no is to just try and kill the engagement. You can just try and challenge their logic and see how much you can push them into a corner to really see. Do they really need or want this? Because it doesn't sound like you need this client? It doesn't sound like you need the extra 25 k a month. Right there's probably other ways that you can earn that money, and I don't think that it's just with me. If you guys are feeling that this is an expense and not an investment. But I'll still be here if you guys change your mind. OK, Thanks a lot. So I see Peter Lehman, when how also have a hand raise, if it's related to this thing, if you guys have a follow up, feel free to pop on and ask or even Bob. I feel like Bob has something a gem to add to this. How about bob? You come on first, you add your magic sauce on top of this and then Peter out, you can. You can follow up. My primary recommendation in this situation is to get super comfortable with uncomfortable. Um, know, is an incredibly powerful tool. Oh, and I used to approach a negotiation, I would start negotiating with myself before I ever get a client on the phone, I'm like, I'm roleplaying them and I'm like, god, they're never going to go for that. You know, and I'm beating myself down and I haven't even gotten on the phone, right? So a show up with a beginner's mind to these discussions. Be open to any outcome. And here's the deal. No is a litmus test. And Matthew just said it. I don't have to repeat it much, but saying no and directing the conversation that no one and and look, this is an honest conversation about a good fit, right? And you know, here's the deal. And Matthew said it, you know, a lot of times and I've experienced this again and again, they come back to it 3 days later, a week later, and they say, you know, we've thought hard about it. We've struggled our budgets a little bit. We think that we can put ourselves into your range because we really want to work with you. I don't want to get metaphysical about it. But when I say no other things happen, other doors open. And I think it's because it leaves me open from a mindset point of view to other things happening, right? So there's a thing called the Batman. It's the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Right? and if you can anchor yourself in a bat, not and the Batman can be 0. No know my Batman is. I got no problem walking away. That gives me 100% power in a negotiation. I got no problem. I'll walk away. It's cool. It's good. No, I think you should get what you need, but I can't do it. I can maybe make a referral for you and hook you up with somebody. Maybe the Batman is I want to work with these people because they're interesting and someone to figure out a way to back scope into what they have because. Because maybe it's an interesting artist or something, or maybe it's an interesting company or it's a brand within your niche that it would be super meaningful to build a case study around, right? So maybe your bat is OK. I'll take it to a certain level to get the gig because there's another kind of value. Another Batman could be, oh, you know what? I could sub this. I can white label somebody in. I can bring some people in temporarily to the team who could do this at the economic level that they want to do it. I can take some margin on that and get the gig done. So think about the best alternative to a negotiated agreement you have and then go high, you know, just go to what it should be. And anchor yourself there plus a little. Usually if you're not feeling uncomfortable about it, maybe you're not asking enough. So I'll toss it back on that. Yeah, thank you so much, bob, and I want to say to it's like, no is very powerful. And you could only hold the cards. If you are able to articulate your value, right? So that was the challenge that we had earlier with Muhammad, and I was kind of stumbling around that too. So you have to be able to either demonstrate or articulate your value. So if they're still looking at you is like, well, you're one of thousands of logo designers. And you haven't made any clear distinction on why you are different, what value you bring to their business and how you can transform them, then if you say no, they'll probably never come back either. Right, so that's also on your part is to figure out what is it that you bring to the table that nobody else can? What is it that Dave, the Instagram doctor, can bring to the table that no other people can write? What are the analytics? All the things that he's doing, all this stuff that he's teaching like, Oh my gosh, nobody else is doing that. I have to go to him. There's only one option, and he's demonstrating his value with all the public facing stuff and probably in these conversations with potential clients. So that's a challenge for all of you guys. Just think about that. What value do you bring to the table? And the better you can articulate that, the better it's reflected on your website before they even come into the door. They know you for that thing. And even if they don't know you for that, then you can demonstrate that in a conversation. So by the time that you get to know or you anchor with a really high number, they're negotiating against themselves and they're trying to figure out how to make it work for you, right? So it's complex, I know it's difficult, it's not easy, I'm just saying it right now, and I know it's not necessarily easy for everyone to apply, but just think about that for a bit. And if you guys have follow up questions on that, maybe we can get to it on this call or a future call, but I know we've had plenty of conversation around this and there's awesome people in this group that can help you through this. So that was a little aside, I know Peter had his hand up, and so did somebody else but feel free. I think when I had his hand up, but maybe put it. There you go. He put it back up his. You know, peter, let Wendell come on first and then, peter, you're next. Yeah, sure thing. Sorry, Peter. Sorry every single time I have a question, it spreads to 10 million questions and then someone says something else, and I feel like I'm going to derail the conversation into something else. So I'm just going to ask the question I have in mind. First And so one of the things is I run the agency and it's been like 11 years, right? And the kind of margins we are at is between 30k to half a million dollars, depending on projects. So one of the problems we face, especially being in Singapore, is geographically, we're taking work from the u.s., we're taking work from China and we're thinking what? Locally, it's very small with this particular audience that I'm trying to target. We're not able to speak to the decision makers. So I've seen videos of Christo saying like, you need to speak to a decision maker who's willing to take risk, et cetera, et cetera. But when I'm going after these bigger clients, it's so fragmented into many people that are trying to either preserve the job want to be artistic, even though maybe they're not from an artistic background and want to have their own input. So it gets so diluted that I can't really put that value across because it's not direct to the business owner. And I think it's also very scary. I mean, I don't think I have the guts, even if I had the ability to talk to someone directly like the main business owner, right? And to get that time slot is nearly impossible and everyone tends to be scared to send the work to him to make a final decision. And yeah, so that's the problem I'm facing because I think that I understand if I met someone that owns the business is a decision maker willing to take risk. He would understand, like, OK, I'm going to make a million out of this. So if he charges me 100 grand, that's fine. But it never works like that directly, so smoothly. OK, let me pause you there. Thank you so much for asking that, and I think I've dealt with this a lot working with agencies and basically a lot of layers going up right. I never talked to like I've done work for. A Microsoft, but I've never talked to the CEO, right? It just doesn't make sense there's. Dozens of layers in between before I could even get to the CEO, so who am I talking to? I'm talking to maybe like a brand manager or some kind of CMO or somebody or sometimes even an agency. So there's I'm so far removed. All I'm trying to do is ask the right questions and see how I can improve their lives. How can I bring value to that person, the person that I'm serving right in front of me? How can I serve their lives better? So a lot of times I might ask. How can I make your job easier? What's a win for you? What's a win for the agency? If I were to help you out because my interest is to help you. You've been such a great client to me. How can I help you win what's important to you and then let's talk about that relative to the business before we get. Before we get to, they're like, I want to understand your needs and how I can serve you best. Right? so sometimes if you're dealing with the middleman, you just have to talk to them and serve them as best as possible. But then you could ask the bigger questions that might end up shooting up the ladder. So I sometimes in these meetings, I would ask questions and like, HMM, I don't have the answer to that. Then I might ask, is that important to know for this project? You may say, actually, I think it is, it's like, OK, well, let's stop the meeting here. Let's follow up on that thing because I feel like before you are, I have any clarity or a decision on where to go to next, what we should recommend going to here. I want we need to understand these fundamental things. Who is the audience? Where is this going to be? I don't think it's a good use of our time until we know those fundamental things. Right so my goal is always to make the person that I'm serving shine, right? So maybe you're right, maybe I don't have access to that higher up person, but I'm just trying to make this person win because if I make that person win, what's going to happen, they're going to keep bringing me back and then I become invaluable to that person. And what happens. Then they start inviting me to other meetings that go up. I'll give you, again, an example with Microsoft, with Xbox. For when I first engaged with them, I had to pitch. I had to pitch ideas, spend our own money to get the job. We got it. We did such a good job on the first one that they invite us to the next one and then the next one. And then what? What's happening next? What they're like, Matthew, you're being called for by name. We're going to fly you out to Microsoft so we could sit down with the team. Only you and a handful of these people are going to see this next product and nobody else knows about it outside of this room. The reason why you're here is because you've made all these great things and we make magic together when you and I work together. Magic happens, so that's why you're being called by name every year. They still call me. They want me to work on Xbox stuff, because people know my name there because we've done amazing work together. Even though I have to say no, I have to say no. It doesn't make sense for us right now. We're focusing on the future anyway. But these are things, so yeah, you just try and make that person win. And when you do that, you keep getting invited up. OK OK. Like, can you do me a favor when Microsoft calls, if you need production, help? Yeah, I was about to ask for that. Come on. No so, you know, so that's what I always do. I say no, but feel free to use me as a resource so that I can help you. And what do I do is I recommend two or three other studios. To work with and usually they work with us, other studios, and what happens, they'll call me up after. It's like, you know, we tried, they did good work, but. It wasn't you. It did it wasn't the same thing, and, you know, can we work together on the next one? Let's consider that. So I've tried, I've already tried to push this out, but for whatever reason, they just keep calling. They just keep calling. I'll consider you for the roster. I'll look up your stuff. And then because I like making recommends for this stuff. Hold on. Let me close my door because my dog is going crazy. OK can I make the scenario a little bit tougher, so it's kind of like, if so, for example, right now when I go into a client meeting, yes, I agree. When I go in, I'm trying to make sure their lives are easier. But I think similar to the web series that you guys were doing about your website, right? You've got all these different departments that's technically politics in the office. That's the issue. I control the guy who brought us in under the bus, right? But then you've got all these approval processes. There's crisscrossing across the place. If I make him happy, like if I, if I'm dealing with this individual and I make him like, like, what's your goal? Let me try to achieve that. And then somewhere along the line, if I try to just keep things simple and focus on that very often because of a company's large structure and how messy it is, I get derailed halfway because suddenly there will be a massive change because maybe the chief creative didn't see it. He sees it finally and then, like the guy in marketing, wants to fight back. And then all of a sudden he loses. And then suddenly he comes to me. He's like, when how I need. We need to change this. And the problem is at that point, my job is to help him, right? So if I start going like, oh, this is going to cost you double or anything like that, I basically burned a bridge and I'm not going to get that climb back as well. So I'm kind of like caught between a rock and a hard place, I feel sure. OK so I have a response that I use for that, feel free to challenge again if you want. But usually what happens in those scenarios is somebody didn't predict or pad for this unexpected scenario to happen. It happens right and usually for our budgets, we pad for that. So that it's no big problem. It's no big deal. If that happens right, we already accounted for it. But if you're in a situation where it's like, well, there's no more budget or time, this is where. I usually say. Anything is possible with time or money. And if you're telling me if we have either, I'd be happy to entertain this idea, but you know what it took for us to get here. We've been working on this project together now for four weeks. And when how long and how many rounds of revisions it took us to get here. So for us to make a 180 now and change directions, you might have an idea of what this might take to do that. So how would you like to move forward, how can we do this so that we can get you what it is that you need? And I leave it open to them. Feel free to feel free to challenge, because I do this all the time and I just every step we are making together, I'm not making isolated decisions without this person, right? I'm keeping them informed and we make these decisions together. Every project, there's a set amount of revisions, a timeline, a scope that we all agreed to, and there's a price associated with that. There's a timeline associated with that. So any time we step outside of that, something has to give. Either we take away from something else or magically we have to come up with more time or money. And it's all logical. You cannot ask me to do something that doesn't include time or money or some kind of give somewhere else. So usually I just ask, how would we do that if there's no more time or budget? How would we get this done? When? how? So usually what happens with the clients over here is there's a lot of competition and over time is probably very common. So like we charge for changes, we charge, we buffer for times actually, because we know these clients have plastic. But I think part of it is also the team. When you're doing a video, for example, and it's 30 seconds, it's an art piece as well. So a part of me is maybe, I think, if a part of me is trying to protect the creative as well because I'm very worried about butting my team out with changes as well, because I don't want to hit that point where we're all thinking like, look, let's just get over with whatever the client wants, give it to them. So you know how many pixels you want this logo to go left? OK, bigger. OK, done. Let's get it out the door and I'm trying to protect them from that because I yeah, it takes a long time to train the guys to be part of that team, and you don't want to burn them out in the process. Mm-hmm Right I get it, I can relate to that, right, just as many people here, you've been on both sides of the table, whether you've been a freelancer or sometimes you're on the other side or now you're giving orders to somebody else, and you want to protect the person, the artist, the designer, the person is like, dude, I don't want you to burn out like, I've been there before. I want to run a company. I want to have a good company culture where everybody feels like they're respected, whatever. Right? like, I understand that position. You don't want to burn those guys out. But if you prepare everybody mentally ahead of time, they kind of know what they're in for. So whenever I hire a crew for one of these, like big Xbox jobs, I tell them, look, I'm going to hire you for this job as a freelancer is going to be challenging. There might be a couple of late nights. I don't want you to sign up something for something that you don't want to do. But I'm letting you know that this could be a possibility, and the beginning usually starts out pretty good until we get to crunch time, which is the last two weeks before the big show. And I just need you to be mentally prepared for something like that. Are you OK with that? Because I don't want to create a victim here, I just I just want volunteers. And if you're not prepared for that, that's totally OK. You're not burning a bridge with me. I'll call you on the next one for the chill one. I'll just call you for all the jobs, and that's totally fine. But if you're ready to get on the grind for the big stuff like let's do it. Yeah I pitch in on that real quick. Yeah so something I do with my company is, like you said, like you have a provision of extra money. I always set aside part of the budget as like, thank you money. And so if I have to ask someone to work a weekend and I think what Matthew is saying is, like, super important, right? Communicating beforehand the expectations. But if I ask someone to go over and above. And I know I am like, I totally reward that like and I'll ask somebody like, so hey, I'm hoping to get something Monday. I know it's Friday right now. Do you think you also work the weekend and they'll probably say, like, yeah, that's probably what we'll need to do. And so I'll be like, OK, how is that making you feel right now? And then I kind of get all psychologist about it and they're like, well, I feel like a little stressed. I feel like I use it a lot easier with clients, too. It's like, how does that make you feel? But no. Alex froze. Oh he's thinking he's thinking, he's thinking, does it make you feel? Yeah, like you feel like you need to break us up? Yeah, no. Yeah how does it make you feel as where you left off you go? So I ask, I ask my whoever is working for me, how would that make you feel? And then? And they say a little stressed. Or it's like, you know, I feel like not great. It's like, OK, if on Monday I asked you to invoice me for $1,000. How would you feel that? And they'll be like, I feel a lot better, like 99% of the time. So it's like our reward that over and above and let them know. It's not just expected, and it's not just preset like in like setting expectations are really important. But I think a lot of times in our industry, we just think people should just work, you know, whatever, and that's just how it is like. But especially as a freelancer, you don't usually get like bonuses and stuff. So it goes a really long way. If you if you do that, I know it's kind of on top of kind of not, but for me, that really helps a lot in the cases of not wanting to burn out my team or something like that. It's like, hey, you know, I want to say thank you, and money is a way of saying thank you. A lot of times actually, like I actually, we are really lucky the people we have, they work late nights and I have this culture that we call. I call it on being on calculative. So you don't like pick hairs with us and we don't pay hairs with you by an exchange. We don't take it for granted as well. So if you work late, we make sure at the end of the year your salary is what it is for the basic number of hours you work with us. But if you are going way above that, we give you money back, we give you bonuses or we just tell them to also take days off after during the slowdown period. So they can repair. So I think in terms of burning out the team, I'm not worried about where they are. I think they're very dedicated and they're really nice as well. So it's been very good. We have like cook outs in the middle of our HR department with like cook for all of them. So we kind of have dinners together and then we go back to work. So they tend to want to stay like I used to bring them out for movies in the middle of delivery, like on deadline. After we submit the following we wait for changes. We will all go watch a movie together and then I'll be like, look at my phone going like, Oh my God. One time there was like one change. And then I was telling them, like, OK, so there's one thing, I just need one of you to come back with me and then we go fix it and start like eight of them came back to the office and set around and then like the change together, which I was like, guys, this is inefficient. But you know, if you guys are happy, I'm happy. But I think for me, it's more about over the years, like we've dealt with China clients where the mentality can be a little bit more fast paced. know, it's like how many people, how many more people do you need to get this done. And you feel like it's not like that? How how many more computers do you need to render? And we want six options of this and you're like, no. So anyway, I derailed this. I don't know where I'm going anymore. I write as much as I can. Yeah, so let's close the loop on that. When how it sounds like we just got into a deep conversation about company culture burning out people. Sounds like you have good, you have good people there and you've installed certain things where you really care about it. The HR people they all care about in your team, they're in for it. So it sounds like you have a fantastic team. Congratulations on that. I think in the long run, it just sounds like you're feeling more and more pressure building up over time, as much of us are depending on what industry you're in. And one of those things is just large enough so that doesn't become a stress, right? You just add more people to that team to tackle it. And a certain point, it's just not even physically possible. Like no matter how much money they throw at a problem, it's not going to fix it because you still need the time to process the synthesize to make something meaningful. And those are the moments that you say no and just say it's not possible, it's not possible with you. Maybe they can find somebody else out there. But right now, with the size of company that you have, the work that you do and your process, it's just not possible with us, right? Then that's where you use. No, and that's OK. Just get comfortable with that. You don't have to say Yes to every job, to every change. You can be selective, especially if you're making good work, especially if you're bringing your results to your client. Feel comfortable with that. So, hey, hey, so I know we're reaching 10 o'clock now, I could stay on for another 15 minutes. I had a question that she posted on Facebook, so I do want to make sure we address her first before we get to Pedro and then anybody else. So anelli, I know you asked the question really, you have a new client there, an energy company, and they're going from print to digital. And you're asking how? They want to create value, is hire that person, hire the expert in that field when you don't know enough and you're kind of scratching at trying to figure out more information, just hire the expert, don't wait any longer. And I'll give you an example. A few years ago, I pitched an idea to Coldplay because I wanted to direct their music video and I had I knew I wanted to stand out somehow, right? And I didn't want to be like every other director that's pitching them an idea. So I said, let's make an interactive music video. And then they said, yes, but I didn't know how. And for the longest time, I was just calling around town. I was researching, researching and I didn't have the answers. I was getting very, very nervous. Then I finally just hired the expert, I was like, oh, you know what, I found this company, they just do interactive music videos that are kind of emerging tech. So I called them up and it's like, hey, namedrop, Coldplay want to direct this thing? I have no idea what I'm doing. Can you help me out? And then they gave me all the answers. So I know there's a feeling, especially as a creative person or somebody who feels like you have to be, you're responsible for the outcome of your client success. And that's fantastic. But if you don't have the knowledge and you can afford it, call or hire that person, and do not wait anymore, because just as you're asking me and I know you're using this group as a way to figure out potential ideas, and maybe you can break off in a little session with some people who are very well versed in digital. And you could do a little brainstorm, invite some of your pro members and say, hey, I'd love to do a 30 minute call. Here's the brief here's what I know about this company. If you guys want to play along with me, if you guys want to do a little study hard, jaden, your unmuted, you're a little out there. Oh shit. I love that. I don't know what he's doing anyway. Just tell me that's recorded. Yeah, it is recorded. I'm setting up my teleprompter. So Yeah. OK good job, Jaden. But yeah, so I'm putting it out there. It's like, if you can hire it, just hire it. If not, you have this group, and I would just do a little breakout session and say, here's the brief do you guys want to help me jam for four 15 minutes or 30 minutes? Let's come up with a couple of ideas, and I'm happy to return the favor later when you are able to. Exercise your creativity on something that you're not really focused on every single day, for some reason, you come up with these great novel ideas. Right just because it's like you're coming out from a very different field, a different part of the world, the different culture, and probably that's where you need all these other ideas. Maybe you and your client are very close to the market and the things that you look at every single day. But maybe you need these outside perspectives to just jar you a little bit and then kind of shake it up. So use the group or just hire the person to be your consultant on this project and just ask them the same exact questions that you gave to me and give them a little bit of context, which is the brief. And I know you're going to get tons and tons and tons of great ideas that you can go back to your clients like. Well, I have this idea or we came up with these ideas and you've already vetted, let's say, if you worked with the group and you came up with 100 ideas of the hundreds of ideas that we looked at, these five, I think, are going to be most valuable to you. You're your audience, because I know this is the thing that you need to say to connect with them. That's where you come back in and you're just connecting the dots. You're just having other people inform you and expand your worldview because these are things that you don't know yet. And if you can buy it, just spend the money. Don't even think about it. Because it will make you faster and make you better, and you will have the answer right now instead of doing all the research yourself. I actually had something to add on a while back, but I was a little bit too committed to the hand-raised, so I saw that as well. It was actually about saying no to clients. And let me see what was it? Oh, all right. It was a very impactful thing that hit me super hard during the pro group after hours that I heard from Chris, and I kind of just wanted to share that knowledge. And it was pretty much something along the lines of, it's OK to say no and don't let the money kind of blind you from understanding that it might not be a good fit. Whether or not it's due to time or due to the project scope because you never had the money in the first place, you made stuff work out without that $1,000 or whatever how much you were going to get. And so understanding that you didn't have the money in the first place makes it so much easier to say no. Mm-hmm Yes, it's the relationship you have with money. It's the value you actually put on there. And then the emotional attachment that you commit to that. And the more you can stay detached from all of those things and just focus on being present and also valuing yourself a little bit more. These are all powerful tools to help you leverage power in relationship with your clients because we tend to give too much to them just because they say dollar amount. Yeah cool. All right. So we got 5 minutes left here to somebody want to come on and ask a question. Anything else? Hi, u.s. Oh, hey. Hey, Anna. Sorry, I don't have my video. It's really early in the morning. Ha ha, it's OK and you're new to the group this week, right? Yeah, I just joined. Fantastic, welcome. We didn't get you in the welcome at the beginning. Maybe you joined a little bit late, but I recognize you because you're always on the live streams, commenting. I heard the I think they said something before you said that there are more ways to price, so you can be a little bit creative with the pricing. A few of these creative ways to price. I'd love to hear what options I could offer. Sure Yeah. I don't know, Dave, if you wanted to answer that question, I'm happy to give my two cents but maybe Dave has some things that he wanted to share their. And there's a lot of different ways. You don't have to break it up evenly into 12 months, I think that's a very like straightforward, straightforward way to just break up payments. I think a lot of social media management people seem to do that kind of a monthly retainer or whatever. But I think you can load it up heavy on the front. So it's like maybe two months worth two or three months worth in the beginning and then spin it out over six months and then renegotiate. You know, maybe the fee goes up or, you know, you renegotiate the contract after six months. Taking a look at what progress has been made, if expectations have been exceeded or not met, then you can go back and forth that way. In some cases, I know a lot of people don't like to do this, but if it's a company that's reputable or growing or has a leader that has kind of a good track record, then taking some equity in the company is another way to negotiate without getting paid cash or money. Yeah, there's like a million different ways to do it. I think you just have to be creative and it depends on what the client where the client is and what their needs are and what they're wanting to do at that specific time, because they might be cash poor right now, but they might also be, you know, doing another funding run like, you know, in three months or six months or a year from now. And things might change. So I think it really depends on the circumstances of the client. But I don't know, there's like an infinite sort of outs there. Yeah so let me recap that. Thank you so much, Dave, because that's very helpful. So what I heard is there's a couple of ways and I agree with Dave. So one way is phases. You can just do phases. So if, let's say it's you're developing a website, you might do discovery first, then you might come up with a style guide or wireframes and then you do the development right. So discovery, design, development, let's say it's three phases. Then you just charge. You could charge per phase before you start off. You charge 33% before. Once you're signed off on discovery, then you get into design and then you charge the next 33% and then you get to the end and then you before deliver, you charge the last three to 3% So you can chunk it out however you want based off of the phases. Make sure you get some money upfront before you start anything, and then you could break it up over time. The second way is retainer, meaning they just pay you a flat monthly rate with a certain expectation every month of tasks that you will do for them, outcomes that you will provide for them. And then the last one, which not everybody loves is equity. And like, you could do this with startups or you could base it on performance. So if we did this, then you could capture a certain amount of value based off of the performance of whatever your outputting. So let's say if you're putting together a marketing campaign, then maybe you just capture some of the value created. Some of the monetary value that they're getting from the campaign that you're creating, right? And you could see it depending on if you're working on the marketing, if you're tracking ads, if you're tracking conversions, those are the things that you can do. An example of this, there's a company out there called sandwiched video and a lot of the deals they cut. They work mostly with startup companies, so it's usually this big payout. So they will just charge them a certain small fee for production, for video production to come up with cool ads. And then what happens is they take percentages from each of these companies, some of them pay out and some of them do not. But the ones that do pay out are enough, actually more than enough that it makes sense for all the other risks that they're taking on all the other companies, right? Because not every startup is going to pay out. So that's a way to do it. You can do it performance based or put equity on their. Do those make sense to you, anna? Yes, they do, and I was just trying to quickly type that out. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, for the answer. Yeah one other thing that I want to put out there in terms of performance, there's this company there called tube science. And what they do is Facebook ads and their model is crazy. They charge you 0 up front. They charge you $0 to make video ads. What they do is they say, OK, we'll make all these ads for you and we only get paid if you get paid. And what we want to get paid on is a percentage of the ad spend that you do, and they're talking to companies who spend a few thousand dollars on ad spending every month anyway on Facebook ads. So they're completely de-risking from the clients. But what are they doing? They're asking for a much bigger percentage based off of the ad spend. So if the company is spending, let's say, it's 200 thousand, they might ask for something like 25% of that ad spend that they get to put in their pocket. So if they're doing well, they get to capture $50,000 of that. And what happens if the videos are performing well and they're converting? Guess what the client does? I'm going to dump more money on that next month. I'm going to keep dumping more money and what happens? Everybody wins. And the thing is, with their companies like they don't really care about making beautiful ads all day, cares about making ads that work. So they were in our building. They were a tenant of ours a while ago, but they might make dozens of ads in one day where they're shooting with their phone, they're shooting with DSLR cameras, they're trying all kinds of stuff and they test that test that test it and the ones that perform, they spend more money on and spend more money on. And then the client, they don't really care as long as it's converting for them. All they care about is that are we bringing revenue in? So that's another way that you can do it if you are able to control the outcome and track the spending and the performance. If you're taking on a lot of this risk or you're making it work for your client and you have, you have some stake in the success of it. that's really. They really appreciate how you say summarize things at the end. That's really helpful to have an overview of what the options are. Cool thank you. Hopefully, you can figure out something in there that makes sense for your context for your business. Matthew, very quickly. There are some people asking in the chat, what was the name of the company? Oh Yeah. There was two companies that I mentioned. The first one is sandwiched. Video and you'll see them you'll recognize a lot of the commercials that they made, I think they recently did something with Wistia. It's like, OK, we're going to make three kinds of ads. One is with $100 ones with 10,000 and one's with $100,000, which ad performed best. So they did a big campaign with Wistia. It's really interesting. So you'd be surprised at the results that they got. So that's the first company, and the second company is called tube sites and their Facebook marketing company. When I last checked their website maybe two years ago, they didn't really have anything on their website, and that's because they were so new to it and they were doing so well that they didn't even have time to update their website and they keep getting calls. And they might have changed that now, but those are the two companies that I mentioned. Sandwich actually partnered with venture capital company for those so they actually really look into those startups that they don't offer it to everyone. It's just like the ones that they've really looked into and know that the probability is high. Then they'll write for equity in Yeah. So they have a vetting process, which is great. So that's one of the reasons why we as a company have never really loved equity is because we didn't have a good, proper way to vet out opportunities. So we didn't want to just bet on any horse. We'd rather just have the cash in hand. Whenever possible. But if there is something where it's like, you know, I really believe in this product or wow, you guys are trending very well in the marketplace, then it might be something worth considering. And if you have a good matrix to evaluate that the potential success of something or if you personally have a stake in it, then you could. Then you could take equity in exchange for a lower rate upfront. Quick question about if you were to because I've tried this with a startup or I'm trying, I'm still trying to make the deal work if we do videos. And one of the ideas was to take a basic pay for the video. And then if based on how well it performs, we will get paid a percentage. The problem is because we're not a performance company and we don't do data analytics and everything. It ended up having me go find a performance company to get into the loop and then the performance company wants to drive more and just putting more money on ad buys, right? And it gets basically everything always seems really easy until I try it. And then I'm like, oh, like the client said, OK, sure, we have this new product. It's coming out. It's going to be on what's that Kickstarter page through indiegogo? Yeah, they're like, OK, this one zero marketing and everything, so you can do it. And we are like looking at a product. We're like, I don't know whether we should try this, but I've been trying to find that system because we realized for big clients, we always get told what to do. And it's but I want to try to find a way to work with the client closely and grow with them. It just been hard to find a story today, I'm like all negative stuff, but I have depressions. Yeah, and that's definitely a gray area that it sounds like you don't have clarity on yet, and I don't always have clarity on those things. In the past, I didn't before I would just make pretty videos. And then that's it. Guess what? That's an opportunity for you to learn, like if you want to understand conversion and marketing what true value you can bring in terms of performance, that's a big gap that you can close. It's a knowledge gap that you can close and you can get better at. Right now, the information is out there if you study it so or you could hire it again. If you have the money, just go hire that person and then consultants like, what do I need to look for in here? What what are the key metrics that we need to look out for? How will I know if this video is performing well? How can I track these things, right, so you can hire the person for that, which it sounds like you've maybe already done? And then you just close the knowledge gap, so now that when you have the next conversation, you already know it's like, OK, well, if we make this video, the KPIs are, this is how we'll measure it. And every 1,000 views, you're going to earn this amount of revenue. Right then you could start talking their language. But until you understand those things, it's very hard to have conversations. Because you're just guessing and you could come into it, too. It's like, look, I know you're a startup. And this is my first venture into this. I don't really know much about this. All I know is I can make a very impactful video, but I would like to do is I'd like to learn more about what's going to make the successful for you. So if you're willing to take a chance, I get exchange some of my time and provide what I know. If you'll share that information with me so that I can learn in the process and we could see together how this is going to work, and I want to de-risk this for you because I don't want you to spend a whole lot of money. So what I'd like to do is become some kind of equity partners. Or maybe I might receive 10% based off of the performance of the video, and I would only collect any funds if we exceeded $50,000 in revenue on this product. Whatever it is, right, you can have all kinds of contingency. You're just de-risking. But look at these as learning opportunities don't always look at every opportunity like I have to cash out right now. I have to cash out right now. And if I don't have this cash in hand, that means this was unsuccessful. No, because the knowledge that you might gain from a particular situation is an investment that you're going to retain for the rest of your life and is going to pay in dividends for every opportunity you have after that. So some opportunities are worth going into your own pocket or taking less if you're going to learn a whole lot from them. Yeah, my soapbox right now. Thank you. Yeah OK. Well, I think that's all the time we have. Thank you so much. Thank you for putting up with me tonight, like my brain isn't as working as fast as I could, but I am just coming back from a very long week and I really appreciate all of you guys being here. Really appreciate all the questions you gave. I think a lot of you have challenged me in very good ways. Hopefully I was able to answer your questions. If you do have follow up questions. Please just drop them in the Facebook group. Don't be shy to ask a question because there's tons of smart, helpful people in this group. And just like I told NLI earlier, if you have a challenge. And you're looking for help or insights, invite other people like there's a lot of tons of like cool small subgroups like Venn has started. That's all-female group, which is fantastic. Like, use these little pockets of people, partner up with your PGP, with your peak performance partner, or find a group of people that you can plug into and see if you can pick their brain, but also give value back to them, right? Don't just take from these groups, but try and help others wherever you can. And that's how we keep this ecosystem going. And that's why there are so many awesome people in this group. So give more than you get and you'll see all of these things return to you. OK cool, cool. All right, well, that is it for me. Thank you, everyone. Whether it's your morning or evening, I will see you guys on Facebook and on a future call. Thank you. Nice night. Good night, everybody. Thank you. Night, thank you. Great Instagram post last few posts. Matt, oh, thank you, ma'am. Working on it all, the inspiration was really good. Thank you. Working on it. That's what happens when you have free time, when you take days off and you're like, OK, well, now I'm bored now I'm going to make something creative. And it was cool. Thank you. Really appreciate that. Hopefully let's see if I can jam out another one tonight or tomorrow. I'm trying to get three done by Sunday. So looking forward to Michael. Thank you. All right. Bye, guys. Bye bye. My

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